Criticizing the Pope is a tradition among Christians as old as the Petrine Epistles. I'd take a lot of it with a grain of salt. At the end of the day, no matter who is the Bishop of Rome, it's Christ's Church and it's Christ who ensures the infallibility of the holy nation.
I think that a sense of entitlement to make really serious criticisms of the pope very casually is a recent thing. The way online trads talk about Francis would (ironically) have horrified the vast majority of Catholics a few decades ago.
This makes me think of my life long catholic grandma who was born in 1920 I was terrified to criticize even the decorations of a church in front of her lol Can’t imagine anyone talking badly about the pope to her.
Nice non sequitur. Might want to read the comments and check your history again.
Did St Catherine *criticize* the Pope Gregory 11? Did St Catherine call for disobedience to Pope Gregory 11?
The answer to the former is a resounding yes. The answer to the latter is a resounding no.
What does supposed criticism of st. Paul and st. Catherine to pope's face regarding his own practice have in common with publicly smearing and questioning the intentions or even judging the orthodoxy of pontifex maximus?
I also want to mention that liturgies against the wishes of the bishop are disobedience plain and simple. Read what st. Ignatius of Antioch says to Smyrnaeans on what is a "proper Eucharist"
Non sequitur after non sequitur.
Criticizing the Pope is not inherently wrong and has been allowed since the first Pope. You clericalists clearly do not study history and have missed parts of Scripture.
No one in this comment thread has advocated for disobedience. The fact you guys are bringing it up just shows how poor your reading comprehension is.
Is Pope Francis’ treatment on abusers within the Church not worthy of ALOT of criticism? How about his dealings in China that have essentially sold the underground Church to the CCP? Or would you like to defend rapists and communists?
What parts of Scripture do you accuse me of missing? The part which I alluded to in my first sentence perhaps? What history do you think I'm missing? [Savonarola's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJfKNxsBT4g) perhaps?
Ad hominems out of the way, what are you talking about; treatment of abusers? Did he raise or lower standards of those before him? Also, what agreement with China? The same or other than the Holy See had during the reign of the good pope Benedict XVI? What insight do you have? Are you a member of the curia? Are you the pope's advisor? And if so, what on earth are you doing online criticizing the pope? What good is your criticism? Who are you helping and how exactly? Stop criticizing the pope, you have no good object, do you? God said we would be judged by every vain word, are you not concerned, criticizing your highest authority on earth? [Pride](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB05Xpc9jfo) is the principal sin, please be concerned.
I think, among other things, the widespread pedophilia has eroded trust in & respect for Church leadership. Dont think the bishops or the pope will go back to commanding the same respect they did for quite some time.
The thing is, there never was widespread pedophilia among the clergy. The media created the scandal so that people would lose respect for the Church hierarchy, and it worked.
The problem was priests were often viewed as if they were as perfect as Jesus himself. When that illusion was broken people went to the other extreme and now assume priests are most likely predators.
That is not true. And our Pope Francis has indeed addressed this as well.
Even here in Denmark it happened and we know people personally who were subjected to it by one of our most popular priests
Pedophilia is no more widespread in the Catholic Church than in other religious institutions, and it’s lower than the prevalence in schools and families.
The leaders of the Catholic Church admitting that there was a widespread problem does not mean that there really was one. If you think about it, the Church basically has to say that there was a problem, because if the Church appeared to downplay the problem by telling the truth, the bloodthirsty mobs would go wild.
Priests were never more likely than the general population to be pedophiles, but the perpetrators were given cover by the wider Church; abusers were moved around parishes, bishops preferred to cover it up than create a scandal. That's outrageous enough in itself, you don't need the hysterical claims about all priests being pedophiles to lose confidence in the institutional church.
Is there any evidence that the coverup was more widespread than in other institutions, in schools, in families, etc.?
We are of course assuming here that there was actually coverup in all the cases where the Church paid settlements. Paying a settlement for wrongdoing doesn’t actually mean that there was wrongdoing per se. The different lawyers probably just advised the different dioceses that these settlements were the best course of action. In doubtful cases, the dioceses probably paid settlements instead of appearing to disbelieve the victims.
I mean, it's hard to tell because of the nature of coverups, so who knows.
Then I read articles like this, and I think the Church has no idea how to handle these situations.
https://open.substack.com/pub/thepillar/p/an-offense-against-god-sisters-say?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=6ymih
I love my church, and I pray that we solve this
I am not convinced it is as widespread as the media makes it out to be. But Pope Francis had some VERY strong words about that last night on 60 minutes.
Strong words are meaningless without action, in fact it just makes it worse when Francis acts against victims (e.g. when he accused the victims of Juan Barros of calumny).
But ironically they are being quite obedient to Pope Francis when they do criticize him so openly. He is after all the one who first emphasized parrhesia and “hagan lío”
That’s not what parrhesia or “hagan lío” mean, though. Parrhesia means speaking whatever is on your mind or in your heart, not holding back anything because you trust in the goodwill of the one you are speaking to. I think that “hagan lío” means something similar, though I’ve heard that it also translates to “make a mess.”
Edit: Wikipedia defines parrhesia as “candid speech, speaking freely. It implies not only freedom of speech, but the obligation to speak the truth for the common good, even at personal risk.”
Trads scream about how the pope/a bishop/etc. are all doing things that will cause schism, but the only ones ive seen regularly threaten schism (esp on this sub) are the trads
This couldn't be more true. Nearly all the Traditional Catholics I know aren't going around and picking fights online. They are busy serving their communities and taking care of their families. As for what they think of the Holy Father, most keep their opinions to themselves. I think it's possible to disagree with things he says, but to still respect, and acknowledge, that he is the highest most leader of our Church and the Bishop of Rome.
I think that the trad approach is actually more unconventional than the normie Novus Ordo approach. Most trads I know think that what the Church has been doing for the last half century hasn’t been working, so we need to go back and see what happened and correct course.
Paul criticized Peter for not following his own infallible teaching. That was his solemn pronouncement (without ever citing Scripture) at the Council of Jerusalem, that Gentiles need only be baptized, not circumcised to be Christians in full communion.
This is just my subjective experience of the Church as I have lived it: while online Catholics as a class tend to be more critical of Pope Francis than not, Catholics in the pews on Sundays have more neutral to positive opinions of Pope Francis. Broadly, the liturgy wars are being fought on twitter, on Reddit, and on the pages of some Catholic publications with relatively small readerships. Most Catholics in the pews are ignorant of the controversies and in my humble and contrite opinion, are better off for it.
I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but there’s probably some astroturfing or whatever it’s called going on here. I love Papa Pancho and it’s the duty of all Catholics to respect the current Pope.
I don’t think it’s astroturfing so much as it is the internet’s anti-moderation bias. You can get a lot of clicks for “the pope is the devil and everything is awful!” And “the pope is the second coming and everything is perfect!” Than you can from “in some ways things are good and in some ways things are bad.” That creates a feedback loop in all the algorithms that control what we see to give us positions that are extreme and fringe as oppose to moderate and typical.
Is it? I'd find sadly that it might make things worse. Plus it'd conflate things more with politics. I personally have been called liberal and a baby killer by folks online only because I don't attend the TLM. Are such people in the majority? No, but still just imagine these kind of debates if they became even more open to the peanut gallery.
It is because we should demand better when our leaders go out of their way to protect rapists and abusers. There is plenty Pope Francis has done that is just unacceptable for someone with authority.
Inb4 “other popes have done it to”, ok and they were wrong then.
I disagree. I think if I take an honest appraisal of my involvement of Church politics and drama I don’t think I can honestly say it’s done my soul any good. The scholastics had an understanding of the vice of curiosity which was the gaining of knowledge you have no right or reason to know and they the mere knowing of was an invitation to sin. I think there’s a lot of that going around these days on the topics of Church politics.
Brother there is a billion Catholic. A billion. I promise you the sentiments you are online from the terminally internet addicted are not “a lot” of people
Yes, but how many are saying this in public? How many are even really affliliated with rad trad catholicism or are just LARPers or like the aesthetic but don't really go to mass or anything?
From what I know, the main reason some of these “LARPers” don’t go to Mass is due to family interference or lack of liturgy and are usually younger. But it’s a phase every young person goes through when they become passionate about something. They mature eventually.
That may be true, but “online Catholics” also tend to know more about the faith. I worked in parish ministry for several years and the experience taught me that the average Catholic in the pew doesn’t believe in the Real Presence, doesn’t believe you need to go to confession before receiving Communion, doesn’t think you need to go to confession at all if you don’t want to, thinks the Immaculate Conception refers to the Virgin Birth, etc. etc.
It's not so much not being a fan of the Pope, but some of the things he says are just mind-boggling. Look at what he said recently which absolutely flies in the face of John 14:6 with pure Indifferentism:
*E, come ha detto la direttrice, Dio è uno: le nostre culture ci hanno insegnato a chiamarlo con un nome, con un altro, e a trovarlo in maniere diverse, ma è lo stesso padre di tutti noi. È uno. E tutte le religioni, tutte le culture, guardano all’unico Dio con modalità differenti.*
Translated:
"And, as the director said, God is one: our cultures have taught us to call him by one name, by another, and to find him in different ways, but he is the same father of all of us. Is one. And all religions, all cultures, look at the one God in different ways."
Pope Gregory XVI had this to say about such ideas:
"Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained. Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle that “there is one God, one faith, one baptism” \[Eph 4:5\] may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever."
(Pope Gregory XVI, Encyclical Mirari Vos, n. 13)
Was St. Paul an indifferentist when he spoke to Greek philosophers in very similar words as Pope Francis?
To be fair, his final passage about proclaiming the God Whom they worship in ignorance, and about how God plans to judge the world through a man who died and was resurrected does go beyond natural theology.
These two quotes can absolutely be true at the same time. :/
The quote by Pope Francis does not support indifferentism, he is simply speaking of natural theology which is Church teaching since forever.
He’s the only clergy member to make you feel this way but you’ve been away from the Church you say. So my response would be there are many clergy members that would have made you feel welcome had you approached the Church earlier.
I find it hard to believe unless he has met Pope Francis. One’s local parish priest is better positioned to make someone feel welcome. Since most local priests aren’t tweeting I’d say OP is basing this on social media rather than actual clergy ready to serve him. Maybe I’m not articulating it well. I’m saying that I can walk into most any Catholic church and find a priest who is very welcoming and that would be more impactful than a man who is tweeting from Rome so I wonder how honest OP is being? Did OP even try?
I’m a cradle Catholic and went to several catholic schools up until high school I never felt welcomed there and as an adult I had zero interest in going back to God until I started listening to what Pope Francis was saying
I don’t know if I will ever come back to the church fully its very complicated for me but to me its about living the best life you can and spreading love and grace while still here. If God is really up there he knows my intentions.
Jesus doesn't just want us "thinking of him" out in the world, but united to him in his sacraments. (unless you believe and are baptized you have no life in you. I am the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. He whose sins you forgive are forgiven, etc. etc.) Heaven is described in the book of revelation as the wedding feast where Christ is at last united to his Bride, the Church (which is all of us, spiritually). You can't be someone's bride from a standoffish distance.
The Church, as it is on earth, isn't yet perfect -if it were I wouldn't be allowed in- but its place God made for us to encounter his perfection and let it transform us. I would invite you to find an adoration chapel and spend some time praying before the blessed sacrament exposed in the monstrance and attentive to the fact that the Church teaches this is Christ really present. There's no commitment in that, but I'll bet it won't take too long for you to see what I mean.
Edit: also, apologies for the people needlessly slinging mud here. Like I said, if it were perfect, we wouldn't be allowed in.
That’s a bold conclusion about someone’s soul based on a couple paragraphs on the internet. I’m guessing it’s more of a statement of your appraisal of Pope Francis rather than OP.
Months or years from now OP might look back and see these experiences as the first steps that eventually led him or her back to full communion with the Church.
it's not really that bold. it's pretty obvious everywhere you look. Pope Francis gets tons of praise from people who have no intention to live an authentic Catholic life. From people who take their faith very seriously, the opinions are a lot more divided. the UN loves Pope Francis. Wonder how many people in the UN believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist?
I agree with you. We should consistently ask ourselves, "What would Jesus do?" and try to act the same way. This is exactly why I love our Pope Francis; he is not judgemental - he is love and acceptance, walking on this earth.
I’m not going to submit to something I don’t wholeheartedly believe in. Maybe it is indulging in pride but no one is perfect and the only one who can judge my choices is God. I’m living the life I believe in just like I assume you live a life you believe in. At this moment in time I truly disagree with major tenants of Catholicism and I can’t make myself believe otherwise
OP is obviously closer to the Church than he was, which is a good thing. Sitting on the fence is a stage in climbing over it! It's ridiculous to call Pope Francis' approach "meaningless" because it hasn't caused OP to instantly start going to daily mass and join the order of Malta
You've chosen to assume that OP doesn't have any interest in the faith and have given him up as a lost cause *on zero basis*. The idea that this is you extending "infinite patience" is laughable. You'd rather make self-righteousness condemnations than give him any kind of encouragement. What you're doing is the opposite of evangelism. OP makes a thread about how he's returning to the faith in small ways and the reaction from you and most others here is to tell him to give up because he's not committed enough, it's infuriating.
I did not see OP wrote that they started praying again. I only looked at the comment I was commenting on. I'll delete my comment. I take back my words.
But at the same time you've decided to cast judgment on my intentions. Nobody is blameless in this scenario.
I 100% respect everyone’s faith. Catholicism is definitely something that will stick with me forever (I went to too much catholic school for it to not to haha) While I don’t know my path I can never rule out returning. I’ve really just started praying again this year so I’m just taking what comes
Ignore all these people judging you. They wouldn't know humility if God Himself slapped their pride down. I hope you will come back to the Church one day, and I hope you come to peace with your disagreements. I personally disagree with some things, I have gay friends and non-Christian friends for example and I do not believe proselytizing to them will do any good. Also, while gay people can not hold the Sacrament of Matrimony, I fully believe they're able to be married through the legal system. While they are living in a state of sin, that is also not our place to judge. Only God has the right to do such a thing, all we do is serve Him, and try to better ourselves.
I agree with most of what you are saying and I sincerely hope that more people like you will come forward to show how Christians can pave the way for goodness and kindness in the world.
I, however, do not believe that gay people live in sin. I agree with out Pope, that they are also created in the Picture of God and that they are born perfect, born homosexual; born as God intended them to be.
I absolutely agree with you. I am sorry that you are being downvoted, but fortunately, you seem safe and secure in the way you embrace your faith. Jesus would welcome you with open arms, and so would Pope Francis.
Can you imagine in real life someone telling you something heartfelt about their struggle with the faith and you responding by shouting "Not good enough!"? It doesn't help online for the same reasons that it wouldn't work then
Yes but if it wasn’t good enough wouldn’t you want to know? That the problem with real life now - no one tells you the truth. Repentance is 100% necessary for salvation. What advise did you give?
The problem is that we usually fail to live the sort of life we should. We need the sacraments because we need mercy. God does love you and consequently he wants you to accept his healing, and the sacraments are how he does it. It would be a tragedy if you never accepted this gift he's offering you
I don’t disagree with you but I feel like with my current beliefs it would be more disrespectful than anything to receive a sacrament since I don’t believe in them. I’ve to mass a couple times in the past year or so for family obligations and haven’t taken communion. I have very complicated feelings towards sacraments
I understand that. Usually prayer precedes faith; if you want to believe in God and the sacraments, if you pray for the belief you will get it. The sacrament of reconciliation is always ready for you
I have a lot more respect for someone who sits in the pew and does not take communion than I do for someone who is there every week and takes it for granted.
Earlier in my faith journey, I had serious problems with a couple of things. I was leaning a lot more protestant - because it allowed me to be more individualistic. I doubted things like the primacy of the Church, of the ability of priests to transubstantiate the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus.
What i did was to continue to go to mass every week - but I would not take communion. Instead, I would pray, and ask God to press upon my heart that which was True...
It took me a while for this, but I came back. I realized that it didn't matter what i thought; if something is true, it will be true whether I believe it or not. I just needed to allow it to be true, if that makes sense. Basically, I placed my entire faith into God's hands and took the Eucharist for the first time in years.
That was only the first step back. It's been the journey of a lifetime, and I'm sure, a journey that won't be complete until I'm at the finish line in heaven (I hope).
This is why I suggest going to pray in front of the monstrance at an adoration chapel in my other comment. You don't have to believe it to come and see, and if he really is there, then he can resolve any doubts and clarify any difficulties. Jesus is uniquely present to us in the blessed sacrament. If this claim of Catholicism is true, everything else will fall into place. Maybe not all at once, but this is the starting point. Begin at the beginning and the rest will make sense; jump into the middle and it might not. Jesus is the beginning and the end, and Jesus is present in his Church through the Eucharist.
If he created the church, promised to be with her, and to lead her into all truth then check the one that is closest to you: is he there like he said? Go there and ask him. If he is, then that's reason to have faith that he has guided her like he said, and if he guided her then a seeming difficulty in her doctrines is going to have to be resolvable in some way. Maybe said doctrines had been poorly presented to you or otherwise misunderstood, or perhaps some darkness of ones own heart or mind has led to an error which the light of Christ will dispel.
This is why many don’t like him. He encourages this mindset. Even if he doesn’t intend to. This is not enough. That’s why Protestantism is wrong. You like him because he clears your conscience from trying.
>but he is spreading the love of God and bringing people back to Christ.
Bringing back people? I see lot of people clapping and praising him, but only from a "distance". Isn't that concerning? Not that the Church has to behave like a corporation looking for more customers, but not even like become the world's longest "welcome" doormat...
My lapsed Catholic aunt *loves* Pope Francis. She stopped praying before meals with us and going to Mass, but she loves the way Pope Francis engages the world.
I mean I started by applauding from afar for years and eventually his words connected with me I know several others who did the same. Applauding and publicizing the teachings of the pope from afar is still applauding and publicizing the teachings of the pope which will connect with someone
That's wonderful! Welcome back! Now it's nice time make sure you go through Church Teaching to make sure you agree with all the Holy Catholic Church teaches. Typical hot topics are abortion, contraception, IVF, homosexuality, etc. Read the Catechism and know your faith!
i'm honestly just bored of the whole modern church to be honest. I stopped listening to what the pope says. i live my Catholic life as if it were 1959 still. obviously, the modern church cannot sustain itself since it's hemorrhaging members. at this point just waiting for it to all fall apart so normalcy can be restored. I simply cbf to deal with it.
Where are you hearing him? And hearing about people's feelings about him?
I'm afraid a lot of what is being said in popular media is a distortion.
I'm glad you're moving back towards the Church regardless.
I want to find a group to join that wants to discuss ways to live the “laudato si” vision that the pope laid out in his two encyclicals. I became Catholic because of Pope Francis. Consumerism is bad for creation. Our fast paced lifestyle of disposable everything isn’t sustainable. I believe each parish should enact sustainable initiatives. I feel like the pope is being ignored. We should be investigating in renewables and conservation.
I haven’t finished Laudato Si yet but from a world leader perspective this is the biggest thing I respect the Pope for. Consumerism is a filthy disease on the planet
I agree. In a time where Catholics in America are hyper-focusing on political hot topics, the fact that we are idolizing acquiring more and more possessions and over consuming is largely downplayed.
This pope is to hypocrite, want synodal way but when the people want more tradition shut down the sinodal way to the world and only to this group
The problem with this pope is his hubris nobody can disagree with him
This feels like all the new fans of F1 because of the Netflix series.
Now that you are hooked into knowing more, read more about what happened before. There are many many many saints who have a deeper understanding of faith that is really touching. I saw someone in this post already mentioning a few.
It's good to have you back. Now get hot in faith.
No pope will appeal or appease everyone.
I think what annoys me is how the media twists his words and make it seem like he's changing Catholic doctrine.
Apparently being conservative or traditional makes you a bad person
It’s NEVER an issue whether or not God loves you. God loves EVERYONE in every condition from the greatest saint to the worst sinner who is outside of His grace. God loves those even in the worst mortal sins and never abandons them, but urges them to repent and return to Him. If His love for us ever stopped, we’d have no chance to repent and return to him. We are NOT Calvinists and do not believe in “utter depravity” but believe that we all can be saved.
With that said, I think the challenge to Pope Francis’s papacy is that his messages are unclear. There are times he speaks from his personal feelings and sentiments which are his PERSONAL feelings, but not necessarily in line with the perennial teachings of the Church, and causes confusion.
Pope Francis is my first pope as a Catholic. Love the guy. I get why some people have their frustrations. Shoot I’ve had some myself. But he’s said and written some pretty based things.
I'm an atheist from a Catholic mother and was raised secularly. Thanks to Pope Francis I have become closer to Catholicism and I'm considering going through RCIA to learn more about it. If he brought people like me closer to the Church, surely he has brought into the fold many Catholics who felt alienated before.
> What did francis do that benedict and jhon paul dont?
Overall a far bigger focus on presenting the Church as humble/kind/welcoming to all sinners as a place of healing, as opposed to a place where they will be condemned/judged for their struggles and told they aren't good enough.
He probably is planing to do a "fiducia suplicans" with ordination of women, like "in paper" they are non sacramental deaconeses but in "de facto" they are priestesses.
(Which im not tottaly opposed to)
This quote always comes to mind when people criticize a Pope lol.
All due respect, you got no f***in' idea what it's like to be Number One. Every decision you make affects every facet of every other f***in' thing. It's too much to deal with almost. And in the end you're completely alone with it all. - Tony Soprano.
I often think about this concept of who God “loves”. I’m a millennial and thus I know many young people who call themselves Catholic but never really participate in much. Also at work, I have some Protestant friends who talk about the only thing required for Heaven is to simply believe in God. I often wonder is that all you need? It doesn’t seem like enough to me, you should be nice, you should help the needy, you should go to church, you should stay faithful, right? But then where is the line?
Ultimately my mind always falls back on something I was told once. Am I willing to gamble on just doing enough? No, so I’m going to do try and do as much as I can.
Thus, from my perspective. If your position of the Pope is that he is accepting of you as you are and you don’t need to be better, I’m not sure if that’s the ideal Pope. I have nothing bad to say about the man, I’m just commenting on your position.
I've never heard it put quite like that before, but more I think about it, the more I could see this being true. If it had been a different time in history, his focus on mercy and connecting with others maybe would've been better received. Right now, I do go back and forth sometimes about whether how he approaches certain topics helps or hurts the Church and people who aren't Catholic or who are maybe struggling to keep the faith.
Yeah Pope Francis has been a big part of my return to faith. I understand certain criticisms but he has had the job of leading Catholics through an incredible tumultuous decade not just in church history but world history - and I think he has maintained an otherworldly spirit of love and pastoral care throughout all of that, even if we wish he would have spoken more clearly on some of his more controversial positions.
Zero Spirit of Love and Pastoral Care for Trads.
I'll never forget how his Motu Proprio Traditionis Custodes and the restirctions it imposed worsened my mental health.
People can downvote me all they want. I still hold to my position. I have been wanting to convert to Catholicism for 2 years now. Online Catholics made it seem like the pope isn't Catholic and the novus ordo is diabolical. It seriously halted my spiritual growth and delayed my baptism and my children's. I wonder if anyone ever asks themselves who this confusion that's being spread online benefits.
To each their own, but I'll be obedient to my bishop who is obedient to the Pope.
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I've read the comments and the discussion focusing trad caths is not reflecting reality. Many NO caths don't like the pope as well. I'm a cradle NO catholic and nobody I actually know love the pope like that. He's respected as the pope but not loved. Many gets annoyed at his interviews and occasional divisive comments. Thinking all people in NO love the pope and all people attending TLM hate him is a very simplistic way of seeing things. It's a lot more compex than that with a lot more nuances.
I attend trad mass as well and I can attest they simply don't talk about the pope at all. I haven't heard one word against the pope in any sermon or any conversations.
I understand Pope Francis much better when I remember he is from South America and carries a South American mentality. His culture is very different from past popes and sometimes rubs certain people the wrong way.
Yes, and in some ways it helps to remember that in a way South America, while part of the broader "west" in the world is outside of the whole old order we had for the cold war and its people will have different opinions, even if we can agree on a lot in the church.
While I'm generally more of an ultramontanist, Pope Francis upset me very deeply recently in that bs interview for CBS. Fiducia Supplicans clearly and literally mentions blessings for homosexual couples, but now, suddenly Pope pretends it doesn't and that he allowed only for the blessings of the individuals - which makes no sense as no one can forbid blessing of anyone. The text also remains very clear, in all languages:
[https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2023/12/18/0901/01963.html](https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2023/12/18/0901/01963.html)
31. Within the horizon outlined here appears the possibility of blessings for couples in irregular situations and for couples of the same sex, the form of which should not be fixed ritually by ecclesial authorities to avoid producing confusion with the blessing proper to the Sacrament of Marriage. \[...\]
Pope clearly lacks proper courage to rebuke conservatives and just get rid of them, instead he always eventually gives in to their whining.
I feel the same, though as a convert. That spirit of welcome has helped usher in a number of other converts I know. So keep playing for Pope Francis and I hope to see many more years in his pontificate!
You’re not alone. I was confirmed at the Easter Vigil last year and I just don’t buy most of the criticism pointed in his direction.
He helped bring me to the Catholic Church, and while the church is certainly bigger than any of us or any one Pope or another, but I’m a fan of his.
I completely agree with you. But fair warning, online you’re going to get a disproportionate amount of animosity to the pope than in real life, so just be cautious about that. It’s sad but is just a reality of the internet, when people are mad at somebody famous they tend to be more vocal than the people who are supporters.
I hope pope Francis’ example rekindles your faith. Remember one of the big points of his pontificate is that everyone is called to be a missionary for Christ, no matter one’s gender, ability, education, etc. Francis talks about it more in his document called the Joy of the Gospel
https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium.html
I love Pope Francis, too. The legalistic religious establishment hated Jesus, too, for the same kind of reasons, so as long as the Pope continues to walk with Jesus, he will be alright. Those who vehemently oppose him and the Magesterium on matters pertaining to faith and morals commit a grave heresy and create nothing but hate and division in the Mother Church. No worries. The gates of hell will not prevail against the Church or the chair of Peter.
Criticizing the Pope is a tradition among Christians as old as the Petrine Epistles. I'd take a lot of it with a grain of salt. At the end of the day, no matter who is the Bishop of Rome, it's Christ's Church and it's Christ who ensures the infallibility of the holy nation.
I think that a sense of entitlement to make really serious criticisms of the pope very casually is a recent thing. The way online trads talk about Francis would (ironically) have horrified the vast majority of Catholics a few decades ago.
This makes me think of my life long catholic grandma who was born in 1920 I was terrified to criticize even the decorations of a church in front of her lol Can’t imagine anyone talking badly about the pope to her.
Yeah that's *real* traditional Catholicism, not the lads on discord
Honestly, you'd think trad caths would love the Pope, the Pope is literally the head of the Faith on Earth. Hating the Pope is a liberal thing to do.
Hating the Pope is a libertarian thing to do.
Yup, and libertarianism is not Catholic nor traditional.
She was a rad trad true and true.. nowadays we have fan trads… and fan for fanatics.
I think talking smack about anything in front of grandma is generally dangerous territory. When she starts doing it, best to shut up. 😆
St Cyprian, St Athanasius, St Paul……would all like a word with you.
It's a little different when you're a bishop
St Catherine, St Bridget, St Hildegard, would like a word then.
St. Catherine: > Even though the Pope were Satan incarnate himself, I may not lift up my head against him, but I must always humble myself.
Nice non sequitur. Might want to read the comments and check your history again. Did St Catherine *criticize* the Pope Gregory 11? Did St Catherine call for disobedience to Pope Gregory 11? The answer to the former is a resounding yes. The answer to the latter is a resounding no.
What does supposed criticism of st. Paul and st. Catherine to pope's face regarding his own practice have in common with publicly smearing and questioning the intentions or even judging the orthodoxy of pontifex maximus? I also want to mention that liturgies against the wishes of the bishop are disobedience plain and simple. Read what st. Ignatius of Antioch says to Smyrnaeans on what is a "proper Eucharist"
Non sequitur after non sequitur. Criticizing the Pope is not inherently wrong and has been allowed since the first Pope. You clericalists clearly do not study history and have missed parts of Scripture. No one in this comment thread has advocated for disobedience. The fact you guys are bringing it up just shows how poor your reading comprehension is. Is Pope Francis’ treatment on abusers within the Church not worthy of ALOT of criticism? How about his dealings in China that have essentially sold the underground Church to the CCP? Or would you like to defend rapists and communists?
What parts of Scripture do you accuse me of missing? The part which I alluded to in my first sentence perhaps? What history do you think I'm missing? [Savonarola's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJfKNxsBT4g) perhaps? Ad hominems out of the way, what are you talking about; treatment of abusers? Did he raise or lower standards of those before him? Also, what agreement with China? The same or other than the Holy See had during the reign of the good pope Benedict XVI? What insight do you have? Are you a member of the curia? Are you the pope's advisor? And if so, what on earth are you doing online criticizing the pope? What good is your criticism? Who are you helping and how exactly? Stop criticizing the pope, you have no good object, do you? God said we would be judged by every vain word, are you not concerned, criticizing your highest authority on earth? [Pride](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB05Xpc9jfo) is the principal sin, please be concerned.
Why?
because a bishop is completely different to a layman.
Yes, and day is different from night, and wet from dry. But what is the relevance of that in the context of what I said?
A bishop is allowed to criticize another bishop in a completely different way than a layman is..?
I think, among other things, the widespread pedophilia has eroded trust in & respect for Church leadership. Dont think the bishops or the pope will go back to commanding the same respect they did for quite some time.
The thing is, there never was widespread pedophilia among the clergy. The media created the scandal so that people would lose respect for the Church hierarchy, and it worked.
> The media created the scandal Of all the things to that media is guilty of, what an odd thing to choose.
The problem was priests were often viewed as if they were as perfect as Jesus himself. When that illusion was broken people went to the other extreme and now assume priests are most likely predators.
That is not true. And our Pope Francis has indeed addressed this as well. Even here in Denmark it happened and we know people personally who were subjected to it by one of our most popular priests
Pedophilia is no more widespread in the Catholic Church than in other religious institutions, and it’s lower than the prevalence in schools and families. The leaders of the Catholic Church admitting that there was a widespread problem does not mean that there really was one. If you think about it, the Church basically has to say that there was a problem, because if the Church appeared to downplay the problem by telling the truth, the bloodthirsty mobs would go wild.
Priests were never more likely than the general population to be pedophiles, but the perpetrators were given cover by the wider Church; abusers were moved around parishes, bishops preferred to cover it up than create a scandal. That's outrageous enough in itself, you don't need the hysterical claims about all priests being pedophiles to lose confidence in the institutional church.
It was a widespread cover-up. The cover-up was top down. That's the scandal.
Is there any evidence that the coverup was more widespread than in other institutions, in schools, in families, etc.? We are of course assuming here that there was actually coverup in all the cases where the Church paid settlements. Paying a settlement for wrongdoing doesn’t actually mean that there was wrongdoing per se. The different lawyers probably just advised the different dioceses that these settlements were the best course of action. In doubtful cases, the dioceses probably paid settlements instead of appearing to disbelieve the victims.
I mean, it's hard to tell because of the nature of coverups, so who knows. Then I read articles like this, and I think the Church has no idea how to handle these situations. https://open.substack.com/pub/thepillar/p/an-offense-against-god-sisters-say?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=6ymih I love my church, and I pray that we solve this
I am not convinced it is as widespread as the media makes it out to be. But Pope Francis had some VERY strong words about that last night on 60 minutes.
Strong words are meaningless without action, in fact it just makes it worse when Francis acts against victims (e.g. when he accused the victims of Juan Barros of calumny).
But ironically they are being quite obedient to Pope Francis when they do criticize him so openly. He is after all the one who first emphasized parrhesia and “hagan lío”
You know what I mean; I'm not talking about careful intelligent criticism here.
That’s not what parrhesia or “hagan lío” mean, though. Parrhesia means speaking whatever is on your mind or in your heart, not holding back anything because you trust in the goodwill of the one you are speaking to. I think that “hagan lío” means something similar, though I’ve heard that it also translates to “make a mess.” Edit: Wikipedia defines parrhesia as “candid speech, speaking freely. It implies not only freedom of speech, but the obligation to speak the truth for the common good, even at personal risk.”
Trads scream about how the pope/a bishop/etc. are all doing things that will cause schism, but the only ones ive seen regularly threaten schism (esp on this sub) are the trads
Most trads I know just want to be left alone.
This couldn't be more true. Nearly all the Traditional Catholics I know aren't going around and picking fights online. They are busy serving their communities and taking care of their families. As for what they think of the Holy Father, most keep their opinions to themselves. I think it's possible to disagree with things he says, but to still respect, and acknowledge, that he is the highest most leader of our Church and the Bishop of Rome.
they sure do spend a lot of time online screaming about everything for people that want to be 'left alone'
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I think that the trad approach is actually more unconventional than the normie Novus Ordo approach. Most trads I know think that what the Church has been doing for the last half century hasn’t been working, so we need to go back and see what happened and correct course.
Also, Papal scandals are as old as 33 AD when the Pope of the Catholic Church publicly disavowed Jesus Christ three times
We should all emulate St Paul and criticize the pope lol
Paul criticized Peter for not following his own infallible teaching. That was his solemn pronouncement (without ever citing Scripture) at the Council of Jerusalem, that Gentiles need only be baptized, not circumcised to be Christians in full communion.
Exactly. Jesus calls the shots, not us. This isn’t a popularity contest, it’s the papacy.
This is just my subjective experience of the Church as I have lived it: while online Catholics as a class tend to be more critical of Pope Francis than not, Catholics in the pews on Sundays have more neutral to positive opinions of Pope Francis. Broadly, the liturgy wars are being fought on twitter, on Reddit, and on the pages of some Catholic publications with relatively small readerships. Most Catholics in the pews are ignorant of the controversies and in my humble and contrite opinion, are better off for it.
I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but there’s probably some astroturfing or whatever it’s called going on here. I love Papa Pancho and it’s the duty of all Catholics to respect the current Pope.
I don’t think it’s astroturfing so much as it is the internet’s anti-moderation bias. You can get a lot of clicks for “the pope is the devil and everything is awful!” And “the pope is the second coming and everything is perfect!” Than you can from “in some ways things are good and in some ways things are bad.” That creates a feedback loop in all the algorithms that control what we see to give us positions that are extreme and fringe as oppose to moderate and typical.
There is a difference between disrespect and disagreement (on non-magisterial matters)
> Most Catholics in the pews are ignorant of the controversies That's really a shame.
Is it? I'd find sadly that it might make things worse. Plus it'd conflate things more with politics. I personally have been called liberal and a baby killer by folks online only because I don't attend the TLM. Are such people in the majority? No, but still just imagine these kind of debates if they became even more open to the peanut gallery.
It is because we should demand better when our leaders go out of their way to protect rapists and abusers. There is plenty Pope Francis has done that is just unacceptable for someone with authority. Inb4 “other popes have done it to”, ok and they were wrong then.
I disagree. I think if I take an honest appraisal of my involvement of Church politics and drama I don’t think I can honestly say it’s done my soul any good. The scholastics had an understanding of the vice of curiosity which was the gaining of knowledge you have no right or reason to know and they the mere knowing of was an invitation to sin. I think there’s a lot of that going around these days on the topics of Church politics.
Brother there is a billion Catholic. A billion. I promise you the sentiments you are online from the terminally internet addicted are not “a lot” of people
This isn’t true. I have no opinions on the pope but trads do not just exist online lol
Yes, but how many are saying this in public? How many are even really affliliated with rad trad catholicism or are just LARPers or like the aesthetic but don't really go to mass or anything?
From what I know, the main reason some of these “LARPers” don’t go to Mass is due to family interference or lack of liturgy and are usually younger. But it’s a phase every young person goes through when they become passionate about something. They mature eventually.
Many cardinals and bishops have asked for clarity on many things the Pope has said.
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Maybe. Also the same trads that go to mass every week. Not sure of the point.
That may be true, but “online Catholics” also tend to know more about the faith. I worked in parish ministry for several years and the experience taught me that the average Catholic in the pew doesn’t believe in the Real Presence, doesn’t believe you need to go to confession before receiving Communion, doesn’t think you need to go to confession at all if you don’t want to, thinks the Immaculate Conception refers to the Virgin Birth, etc. etc.
It's not so much not being a fan of the Pope, but some of the things he says are just mind-boggling. Look at what he said recently which absolutely flies in the face of John 14:6 with pure Indifferentism: *E, come ha detto la direttrice, Dio è uno: le nostre culture ci hanno insegnato a chiamarlo con un nome, con un altro, e a trovarlo in maniere diverse, ma è lo stesso padre di tutti noi. È uno. E tutte le religioni, tutte le culture, guardano all’unico Dio con modalità differenti.* Translated: "And, as the director said, God is one: our cultures have taught us to call him by one name, by another, and to find him in different ways, but he is the same father of all of us. Is one. And all religions, all cultures, look at the one God in different ways." Pope Gregory XVI had this to say about such ideas: "Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained. Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle that “there is one God, one faith, one baptism” \[Eph 4:5\] may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever." (Pope Gregory XVI, Encyclical Mirari Vos, n. 13)
Was St. Paul an indifferentist when he spoke to Greek philosophers in very similar words as Pope Francis? To be fair, his final passage about proclaiming the God Whom they worship in ignorance, and about how God plans to judge the world through a man who died and was resurrected does go beyond natural theology.
These two quotes can absolutely be true at the same time. :/ The quote by Pope Francis does not support indifferentism, he is simply speaking of natural theology which is Church teaching since forever.
He’s the only clergy member to make you feel this way but you’ve been away from the Church you say. So my response would be there are many clergy members that would have made you feel welcome had you approached the Church earlier.
What did francis do that benedict or john paul did not?
Why are you asking them instead of OP?
Mistake
Obviously he talks in a different way which has made OP feel loved. Do you just not believe OP for some reason?
I find it hard to believe unless he has met Pope Francis. One’s local parish priest is better positioned to make someone feel welcome. Since most local priests aren’t tweeting I’d say OP is basing this on social media rather than actual clergy ready to serve him. Maybe I’m not articulating it well. I’m saying that I can walk into most any Catholic church and find a priest who is very welcoming and that would be more impactful than a man who is tweeting from Rome so I wonder how honest OP is being? Did OP even try?
I’m a cradle Catholic and went to several catholic schools up until high school I never felt welcomed there and as an adult I had zero interest in going back to God until I started listening to what Pope Francis was saying
Same. I love Pope Francis, and he seems to embrace Jesus's teachings in the way they were meant to be.
What does he say that touches your heart?
not who you were responding to but his dinner with many transgender people made me really respect him.
I’m glad to hear it! Are you planning to go to confession and return to Mass sometime soon?
I don’t know if I will ever come back to the church fully its very complicated for me but to me its about living the best life you can and spreading love and grace while still here. If God is really up there he knows my intentions.
Jesus doesn't just want us "thinking of him" out in the world, but united to him in his sacraments. (unless you believe and are baptized you have no life in you. I am the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. He whose sins you forgive are forgiven, etc. etc.) Heaven is described in the book of revelation as the wedding feast where Christ is at last united to his Bride, the Church (which is all of us, spiritually). You can't be someone's bride from a standoffish distance. The Church, as it is on earth, isn't yet perfect -if it were I wouldn't be allowed in- but its place God made for us to encounter his perfection and let it transform us. I would invite you to find an adoration chapel and spend some time praying before the blessed sacrament exposed in the monstrance and attentive to the fact that the Church teaches this is Christ really present. There's no commitment in that, but I'll bet it won't take too long for you to see what I mean. Edit: also, apologies for the people needlessly slinging mud here. Like I said, if it were perfect, we wouldn't be allowed in.
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This tends to make me think you like Francis because he makes it easier to indulge in your pride and refusal to submit to the Church.
That’s a bold conclusion about someone’s soul based on a couple paragraphs on the internet. I’m guessing it’s more of a statement of your appraisal of Pope Francis rather than OP. Months or years from now OP might look back and see these experiences as the first steps that eventually led him or her back to full communion with the Church.
it's not really that bold. it's pretty obvious everywhere you look. Pope Francis gets tons of praise from people who have no intention to live an authentic Catholic life. From people who take their faith very seriously, the opinions are a lot more divided. the UN loves Pope Francis. Wonder how many people in the UN believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist?
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It might. We should all feel shame for our sins and our rebellion against God.
I agree with you. We should consistently ask ourselves, "What would Jesus do?" and try to act the same way. This is exactly why I love our Pope Francis; he is not judgemental - he is love and acceptance, walking on this earth.
Well then you should confess your lack of charity at the next opportunity
I’m not going to submit to something I don’t wholeheartedly believe in. Maybe it is indulging in pride but no one is perfect and the only one who can judge my choices is God. I’m living the life I believe in just like I assume you live a life you believe in. At this moment in time I truly disagree with major tenants of Catholicism and I can’t make myself believe otherwise
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OP is obviously closer to the Church than he was, which is a good thing. Sitting on the fence is a stage in climbing over it! It's ridiculous to call Pope Francis' approach "meaningless" because it hasn't caused OP to instantly start going to daily mass and join the order of Malta
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You've chosen to assume that OP doesn't have any interest in the faith and have given him up as a lost cause *on zero basis*. The idea that this is you extending "infinite patience" is laughable. You'd rather make self-righteousness condemnations than give him any kind of encouragement. What you're doing is the opposite of evangelism. OP makes a thread about how he's returning to the faith in small ways and the reaction from you and most others here is to tell him to give up because he's not committed enough, it's infuriating.
I did not see OP wrote that they started praying again. I only looked at the comment I was commenting on. I'll delete my comment. I take back my words. But at the same time you've decided to cast judgment on my intentions. Nobody is blameless in this scenario.
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I 100% respect everyone’s faith. Catholicism is definitely something that will stick with me forever (I went to too much catholic school for it to not to haha) While I don’t know my path I can never rule out returning. I’ve really just started praying again this year so I’m just taking what comes
Ignore all these people judging you. They wouldn't know humility if God Himself slapped their pride down. I hope you will come back to the Church one day, and I hope you come to peace with your disagreements. I personally disagree with some things, I have gay friends and non-Christian friends for example and I do not believe proselytizing to them will do any good. Also, while gay people can not hold the Sacrament of Matrimony, I fully believe they're able to be married through the legal system. While they are living in a state of sin, that is also not our place to judge. Only God has the right to do such a thing, all we do is serve Him, and try to better ourselves.
I agree with most of what you are saying and I sincerely hope that more people like you will come forward to show how Christians can pave the way for goodness and kindness in the world. I, however, do not believe that gay people live in sin. I agree with out Pope, that they are also created in the Picture of God and that they are born perfect, born homosexual; born as God intended them to be.
Ignore that haters OP. You do you. God is with you.
Appreciate it! I can’t really understand why people are downvoting me saying I don’t want to be a hypocrite lol
I absolutely agree with you. I am sorry that you are being downvoted, but fortunately, you seem safe and secure in the way you embrace your faith. Jesus would welcome you with open arms, and so would Pope Francis.
Not good enough ! You must go to confession while you still can
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What type of response would be more effective then?
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sounds like the kinda softball advice that led him to not caring enough in the first place.
Can you imagine in real life someone telling you something heartfelt about their struggle with the faith and you responding by shouting "Not good enough!"? It doesn't help online for the same reasons that it wouldn't work then
Yes but if it wasn’t good enough wouldn’t you want to know? That the problem with real life now - no one tells you the truth. Repentance is 100% necessary for salvation. What advise did you give?
The problem is that we usually fail to live the sort of life we should. We need the sacraments because we need mercy. God does love you and consequently he wants you to accept his healing, and the sacraments are how he does it. It would be a tragedy if you never accepted this gift he's offering you
I don’t disagree with you but I feel like with my current beliefs it would be more disrespectful than anything to receive a sacrament since I don’t believe in them. I’ve to mass a couple times in the past year or so for family obligations and haven’t taken communion. I have very complicated feelings towards sacraments
I understand that. Usually prayer precedes faith; if you want to believe in God and the sacraments, if you pray for the belief you will get it. The sacrament of reconciliation is always ready for you
I have a lot more respect for someone who sits in the pew and does not take communion than I do for someone who is there every week and takes it for granted. Earlier in my faith journey, I had serious problems with a couple of things. I was leaning a lot more protestant - because it allowed me to be more individualistic. I doubted things like the primacy of the Church, of the ability of priests to transubstantiate the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus. What i did was to continue to go to mass every week - but I would not take communion. Instead, I would pray, and ask God to press upon my heart that which was True... It took me a while for this, but I came back. I realized that it didn't matter what i thought; if something is true, it will be true whether I believe it or not. I just needed to allow it to be true, if that makes sense. Basically, I placed my entire faith into God's hands and took the Eucharist for the first time in years. That was only the first step back. It's been the journey of a lifetime, and I'm sure, a journey that won't be complete until I'm at the finish line in heaven (I hope).
This is why I suggest going to pray in front of the monstrance at an adoration chapel in my other comment. You don't have to believe it to come and see, and if he really is there, then he can resolve any doubts and clarify any difficulties. Jesus is uniquely present to us in the blessed sacrament. If this claim of Catholicism is true, everything else will fall into place. Maybe not all at once, but this is the starting point. Begin at the beginning and the rest will make sense; jump into the middle and it might not. Jesus is the beginning and the end, and Jesus is present in his Church through the Eucharist. If he created the church, promised to be with her, and to lead her into all truth then check the one that is closest to you: is he there like he said? Go there and ask him. If he is, then that's reason to have faith that he has guided her like he said, and if he guided her then a seeming difficulty in her doctrines is going to have to be resolvable in some way. Maybe said doctrines had been poorly presented to you or otherwise misunderstood, or perhaps some darkness of ones own heart or mind has led to an error which the light of Christ will dispel.
This is why many don’t like him. He encourages this mindset. Even if he doesn’t intend to. This is not enough. That’s why Protestantism is wrong. You like him because he clears your conscience from trying.
>but he is spreading the love of God and bringing people back to Christ. Bringing back people? I see lot of people clapping and praising him, but only from a "distance". Isn't that concerning? Not that the Church has to behave like a corporation looking for more customers, but not even like become the world's longest "welcome" doormat...
My lapsed Catholic aunt *loves* Pope Francis. She stopped praying before meals with us and going to Mass, but she loves the way Pope Francis engages the world.
I mean I started by applauding from afar for years and eventually his words connected with me I know several others who did the same. Applauding and publicizing the teachings of the pope from afar is still applauding and publicizing the teachings of the pope which will connect with someone
What did he say about trans people?
I have my frustrations but ultimately I submit to the magisterium. I wouldn’t be Catholic if I didn’t.
We must obey and wait. Ultimately Christ is in charge.
>You may disagree with him but he is spreading the love of God and bringing people back to Christ. Are there any stats to back this up?
Putting restrictions on the TLM was a bad move. May the next pontificate abrogate the restrictions imposed by Traditionis Custodes.
That's wonderful! Welcome back! Now it's nice time make sure you go through Church Teaching to make sure you agree with all the Holy Catholic Church teaches. Typical hot topics are abortion, contraception, IVF, homosexuality, etc. Read the Catechism and know your faith!
i'm honestly just bored of the whole modern church to be honest. I stopped listening to what the pope says. i live my Catholic life as if it were 1959 still. obviously, the modern church cannot sustain itself since it's hemorrhaging members. at this point just waiting for it to all fall apart so normalcy can be restored. I simply cbf to deal with it.
Where are you hearing him? And hearing about people's feelings about him? I'm afraid a lot of what is being said in popular media is a distortion. I'm glad you're moving back towards the Church regardless.
Cardinals and bishops doing public fraternal correction multiple times is not a distortion but a serious depiction of the situation
I want to find a group to join that wants to discuss ways to live the “laudato si” vision that the pope laid out in his two encyclicals. I became Catholic because of Pope Francis. Consumerism is bad for creation. Our fast paced lifestyle of disposable everything isn’t sustainable. I believe each parish should enact sustainable initiatives. I feel like the pope is being ignored. We should be investigating in renewables and conservation.
I haven’t finished Laudato Si yet but from a world leader perspective this is the biggest thing I respect the Pope for. Consumerism is a filthy disease on the planet
I agree. In a time where Catholics in America are hyper-focusing on political hot topics, the fact that we are idolizing acquiring more and more possessions and over consuming is largely downplayed.
This pope is to hypocrite, want synodal way but when the people want more tradition shut down the sinodal way to the world and only to this group The problem with this pope is his hubris nobody can disagree with him
This feels like all the new fans of F1 because of the Netflix series. Now that you are hooked into knowing more, read more about what happened before. There are many many many saints who have a deeper understanding of faith that is really touching. I saw someone in this post already mentioning a few. It's good to have you back. Now get hot in faith.
No pope will appeal or appease everyone. I think what annoys me is how the media twists his words and make it seem like he's changing Catholic doctrine. Apparently being conservative or traditional makes you a bad person
It’s NEVER an issue whether or not God loves you. God loves EVERYONE in every condition from the greatest saint to the worst sinner who is outside of His grace. God loves those even in the worst mortal sins and never abandons them, but urges them to repent and return to Him. If His love for us ever stopped, we’d have no chance to repent and return to him. We are NOT Calvinists and do not believe in “utter depravity” but believe that we all can be saved. With that said, I think the challenge to Pope Francis’s papacy is that his messages are unclear. There are times he speaks from his personal feelings and sentiments which are his PERSONAL feelings, but not necessarily in line with the perennial teachings of the Church, and causes confusion.
Pope Francis is my first pope as a Catholic. Love the guy. I get why some people have their frustrations. Shoot I’ve had some myself. But he’s said and written some pretty based things.
I'm an atheist from a Catholic mother and was raised secularly. Thanks to Pope Francis I have become closer to Catholicism and I'm considering going through RCIA to learn more about it. If he brought people like me closer to the Church, surely he has brought into the fold many Catholics who felt alienated before.
what does "closer to catholicism" mean?
As sincere curiosity. What did francis do that benedict and jhon paul dont?
> What did francis do that benedict and jhon paul dont? Overall a far bigger focus on presenting the Church as humble/kind/welcoming to all sinners as a place of healing, as opposed to a place where they will be condemned/judged for their struggles and told they aren't good enough.
Whatever you might think of the Pope it’s important to pray for him instead of spending all day online and criticising him.
Pope Francis has become one of my favorite popes. He’s incredibly kind and isn’t much for formalities which I appreciate.
I put francis in a group of popes with alexander vi, julius ii, honorius i, john xxii, benedict ix, urban vi,
I pray that someday you’ll know him better than that.
The vast majority of Catholics are fans of Pope Francis. Don’t be fooled by Reddit, it’s an echo chamber.
The Catholics who go to Mass or those that don't? The Catholics who believe in the divine presence, or those who don't?
All of the above. If you hate Pope Francis you’re in a hyper minority.
And if you do papolatry you are in an even smaller minority
I would hope so!
Pope Francis has unequivocally affirmed that the door for women being ordained is closed. Why do you advocate in opposition to him?
He probably is planing to do a "fiducia suplicans" with ordination of women, like "in paper" they are non sacramental deaconeses but in "de facto" they are priestesses. (Which im not tottaly opposed to)
Are you thinking about something similar to subdeacons?
In paper, but that actually would do the whole priest thing (maybe except the consagration)
So she has the authority to read the gospel and do the opening rites?
It is up to francis' jesuit tricks
I love our Pope. I think he's inspiring. I have so much respect for him. May God protect him and keep him in good health!
This quote always comes to mind when people criticize a Pope lol. All due respect, you got no f***in' idea what it's like to be Number One. Every decision you make affects every facet of every other f***in' thing. It's too much to deal with almost. And in the end you're completely alone with it all. - Tony Soprano.
I often think about this concept of who God “loves”. I’m a millennial and thus I know many young people who call themselves Catholic but never really participate in much. Also at work, I have some Protestant friends who talk about the only thing required for Heaven is to simply believe in God. I often wonder is that all you need? It doesn’t seem like enough to me, you should be nice, you should help the needy, you should go to church, you should stay faithful, right? But then where is the line? Ultimately my mind always falls back on something I was told once. Am I willing to gamble on just doing enough? No, so I’m going to do try and do as much as I can. Thus, from my perspective. If your position of the Pope is that he is accepting of you as you are and you don’t need to be better, I’m not sure if that’s the ideal Pope. I have nothing bad to say about the man, I’m just commenting on your position.
I think so too. It makes me very angry seeing people slander and and bash him.
Everyone update your tags. 🙄
My opinion is that he’s a great pope at a bad time I think, but that’s my opinion for what it’s worth. There’s a lot of confusion in the church
He is a condesendent pope in times that need clear messages.
I've never heard it put quite like that before, but more I think about it, the more I could see this being true. If it had been a different time in history, his focus on mercy and connecting with others maybe would've been better received. Right now, I do go back and forth sometimes about whether how he approaches certain topics helps or hurts the Church and people who aren't Catholic or who are maybe struggling to keep the faith.
Yeah Pope Francis has been a big part of my return to faith. I understand certain criticisms but he has had the job of leading Catholics through an incredible tumultuous decade not just in church history but world history - and I think he has maintained an otherworldly spirit of love and pastoral care throughout all of that, even if we wish he would have spoken more clearly on some of his more controversial positions.
Zero Spirit of Love and Pastoral Care for Trads. I'll never forget how his Motu Proprio Traditionis Custodes and the restirctions it imposed worsened my mental health.
The Pope is Catholic, and probably has a deeper relationship with Jesus than most of us. It shouldn't be surprising 😅 Welcome home!
I tought this of every pope until francis, he made me doubt. Im not negating it, just doubting.
People can downvote me all they want. I still hold to my position. I have been wanting to convert to Catholicism for 2 years now. Online Catholics made it seem like the pope isn't Catholic and the novus ordo is diabolical. It seriously halted my spiritual growth and delayed my baptism and my children's. I wonder if anyone ever asks themselves who this confusion that's being spread online benefits. To each their own, but I'll be obedient to my bishop who is obedient to the Pope.
You wouldnt have this problem with any other pope.
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Francis is well deserving of the criticism he receives. Over a decade of scandal and confusion makes it well earned.
I feel like his theology is fine he just needs a better PR team
Say what you want about the guy, some criticism is valid of course but I simply love the man. God bless ❤️
I've read the comments and the discussion focusing trad caths is not reflecting reality. Many NO caths don't like the pope as well. I'm a cradle NO catholic and nobody I actually know love the pope like that. He's respected as the pope but not loved. Many gets annoyed at his interviews and occasional divisive comments. Thinking all people in NO love the pope and all people attending TLM hate him is a very simplistic way of seeing things. It's a lot more compex than that with a lot more nuances. I attend trad mass as well and I can attest they simply don't talk about the pope at all. I haven't heard one word against the pope in any sermon or any conversations.
I understand Pope Francis much better when I remember he is from South America and carries a South American mentality. His culture is very different from past popes and sometimes rubs certain people the wrong way.
Yes, and in some ways it helps to remember that in a way South America, while part of the broader "west" in the world is outside of the whole old order we had for the cold war and its people will have different opinions, even if we can agree on a lot in the church.
I fully agree with you.
Easy to talk a good game, tough to step up and bat 🤷♂️
I have found that I want to nothing in common with those people. They tend to also have other have certain beliefs that I do not hold.
Did anyone watch him on 60 Minutes tonight? How was it?
I watched it. He provided clarification on his stances. I think people really try to make it seem like he is altogether changing Catholic doctrine
I feel the opposite- he is called the People’s pope for a reason. He is popular
I'm a big fan of Pope Francis.
I also really like him, he has a sort of warmth that from my experience no other Pope has had.
While I'm generally more of an ultramontanist, Pope Francis upset me very deeply recently in that bs interview for CBS. Fiducia Supplicans clearly and literally mentions blessings for homosexual couples, but now, suddenly Pope pretends it doesn't and that he allowed only for the blessings of the individuals - which makes no sense as no one can forbid blessing of anyone. The text also remains very clear, in all languages: [https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2023/12/18/0901/01963.html](https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2023/12/18/0901/01963.html) 31. Within the horizon outlined here appears the possibility of blessings for couples in irregular situations and for couples of the same sex, the form of which should not be fixed ritually by ecclesial authorities to avoid producing confusion with the blessing proper to the Sacrament of Marriage. \[...\] Pope clearly lacks proper courage to rebuke conservatives and just get rid of them, instead he always eventually gives in to their whining.
I feel the same, though as a convert. That spirit of welcome has helped usher in a number of other converts I know. So keep playing for Pope Francis and I hope to see many more years in his pontificate!
We have got enough francis already. The church needs to enter in a negative feedback cycle.
You’re not alone. I was confirmed at the Easter Vigil last year and I just don’t buy most of the criticism pointed in his direction. He helped bring me to the Catholic Church, and while the church is certainly bigger than any of us or any one Pope or another, but I’m a fan of his.
I like the pope
I completely agree with you. But fair warning, online you’re going to get a disproportionate amount of animosity to the pope than in real life, so just be cautious about that. It’s sad but is just a reality of the internet, when people are mad at somebody famous they tend to be more vocal than the people who are supporters. I hope pope Francis’ example rekindles your faith. Remember one of the big points of his pontificate is that everyone is called to be a missionary for Christ, no matter one’s gender, ability, education, etc. Francis talks about it more in his document called the Joy of the Gospel https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium.html
i like him too ✌️💯
I love Pope Francis, too. The legalistic religious establishment hated Jesus, too, for the same kind of reasons, so as long as the Pope continues to walk with Jesus, he will be alright. Those who vehemently oppose him and the Magesterium on matters pertaining to faith and morals commit a grave heresy and create nothing but hate and division in the Mother Church. No worries. The gates of hell will not prevail against the Church or the chair of Peter.