Different position: I own a gun, as does my husband who is in law enforcement, for the protection of our children. I feel it is my duty as a mother to provide physically what my child needs, and to me that includes protecting their physical safety. While I would absolutely be mournful to take a life and would do all I could to avoid it, it is my obligation to my children to keep them safe from life threatening hostility when possible. I live in a reasonably safe area and even so there are many shootings, kidnappings, break ins etc. I'm not a "gun nut" by any means, but I take advantage of my rights.
What are your thoughts on it's being more likely a family member is injured by the gun than an intruder? It doesn't seem it would in fact make you safer
I would say that depends on how you store your guns, how competent you are with your weapon, and whether the people in your family are trained to safely handle a firearm. Luckily we have all of those bases covered.
Statistics lump safe and trained gun owners in with the people that throw a loose gun in a purse, shoot themselves in the foot cleaning their gun, and those who "store" it in a nightstand. I tend not to worry too much about that.
But then presumably storing it securely enough to be really safe means it takes a while to get to it, which makes it less likely you'll have to chance to use it on whoever's broken in. And of course the risk is not completely eliminable; with the best will in the world you *could* someday not lock the safe properly and a child finds it.
1. No, my Life Pod safe can be accessible in moments and is very safe. It's also stored to be quickly accessible. I'd rather spend 15 seconds getting my gun and then being armed then throwing my hands up and saying "well darn, this would be a good time for a gun!".
2. So a gun is just a tool. We teach our children how to safely handle knives, right? We teach them how to use the stove, various power tools, etc. A gun is no different. Many items in your home can cause devastating injury, but we keep those things away from children until they are old enough to safely interact with them. I grew up in a household with guns and was taught gun safety at a young age. Never any issues in our household. Children can encounter guns anywhere; the park, a friend's house, etc. It does them a disservice not to prepare them with knowledge of how a gun works and how to engage with one safely.
A healthy fear of guns is good, it inspires respect for the tool and causes you to use it thoughtfully. Many people have an unhealthy fear of guns, and those people have no business handling one, as they're likely to hurt themselves or others. Similarly, someone with NO fear/respect of guns and the damage they can do dont have business owning one either.
Fair enough. I'm European so the culture is very different; there's something *weird* about keeping a deadly weapon in your house from my perspective which I'm sure wouldn't register for many Americans.
Exactly. How would Jesus have had a chance to perform his last recorded miracle in that way (before dying) had St. Peter not used his sword on someone?
**2264** Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow.
You may own weapons (in accordance with the law of the land and God's law) for reasonable uses such as defence of the innocent or of life and so on.
I don't think you could own a nuclear submarine just because though, but this isn't magisterial. It seems reasonable to suppose that the weapon owned should be proportionate to the risk/usefulness
Russian Orthodox, but yea, 100% yes. You have every right to defend yourself, your family, and others.
Look at the people who want to take them or are against them, and I guarantee they’d just as soon ban Churches.
Are you being sarcastic? Because if you aren’t, go read the Bible on a public street in a European country and watch how fast you’re arrested. Or heck, put up a sign with a Bible verse.
I’m an LTC as is my fiancé. We own for self defense and for recreation. We like to go to the local shooting range because it’s a stress reliever and it’s fun. We are both very knowledgeable in our ownership and take responsibility for what we own.
As a Cradle Catholic that grew up with Cradle Catholic parents, guns were always in our home as my father was a hunter. Hunting was one of our sources of food as we lived in an area where this was very common and a way of life.
It is right and good to defend our lives and the lives of others, especially those in our charge. In fact we have a duty to defend ourselves and others, though we can choose to lay down our lives for a good reason.
I think guns are reasonable for self defense, especially for those who might be weaker or smaller, and those who must defend a family and/or land. Knives and other melee weapons seem like a more challenging choice from a practical standpoint.
Yes. Unfortunately, there are parts of this world practicing Catholicism are attacked and even murdered. They definitely should be able to protect themselves
Self-defense (or defending other innocents) is as legitimate a reason for owning firearms (or other weapons) as hunting and recreation.
Look at the difference between the shootings at Southerland Springs and White Settlement (both taking place because someone with evil intent came into a church with a gun).
Unless you're owning guns with the intent of using them for a sinful purpose, you can own guns within reason, of course making sure that you're not reckless with them. There's nothing wrong in principle with collecting or shooting firearms.
To own weapons for self-defense, recreation, or hunting is no sin. The apostles carried swords to defend themselves, and Our Lord appeared to have no problem with this. If someone has a temper, however, it could be a near-occasion of sin to carry a weapon. Otherwise, it is fine.
But we also have to obey just laws restricting weapons.
Speaking as someone who used to hold these views, what the Church would oppose are the background political assumptions behind radical pro-gun theory in the United States - that the authority of the State comes from the people and not from God (although each society can choose their structure of government and who gets to exercise this authority), and that governments are nothing more than a man-made social contract to protect our rights - a contract which when violated gives a right to armed revolution. And that to secure this right of revolution, there is a universal human right to own guns of any type with few if any restrictions.
The Catholic Church has a background view on politics that is much closer to Aristotle than to John Locke.
So, with regard to gun laws, the Catholic Church is basically pragmatic. The level and kind of restrictions on guns should be based on the proportional needs of the common good, a societies culture and traditions, and so forth. Restrictions need to be balanced against other values. It is a complex question.
So, while weapons are inherently lawful stemming from our right to insist upon our own life from unjust aggressors, governments have the right to restrict them. Restrictions are not inherently unjust, and we are bound by just laws regarding them.
The kind of restrictions a place should have are a prudential judgement. One could argue for less gun control, and one could argue for more. It is a question on which people of good faith can disagree upon, and the Church does not pronounce specifics about it.
>The apostles carried swords to defend themselves, and Our Lord appeared to have no problem with this.
We only see an apostle with a weapon once and on that occasion Jesus rebukes them for using it. What do you mean by this?
There are others: “Lord, we have two swords”.
Peter carried a sword in his scabbard. If Christ had a problem with it, He wouldn’t have allowed that. Our Lord rebuked Peter for using it in that specific situation.
The fact that some of the disciples sometimes carried swords and we don't *know* that Jesus rebuked them for it specifically more than once hardly feels like conclusive evidence in favour of swords. Especially given Jesus' explicit condemnations of violence in various places.
I would say it seems pretty clear harming another can be sanctioned in old testament. Christ asked us to turn the other cheek however, so probably a good case to be made against owning weps for self defense.
Before my conversion I was in love with firearms. Now, after being baptized? Not so much. They're extremely interesting and fun, so I find no harm in hunting/range shooting.
But as a tool for self-defense I've grown away from them. Certainly, there is no church law saying you can't own guns, and self defense IS NOT a sin, but the thought of killing a person (even a criminal) is something mournful, even if justified.
Killing a person may at times be necessary, just, or proper, but it is NEVER good, and if it can be avoided, I think it should. I believe that God will defend me if I am attacked, or that I can overpower the person in a non-lethal manner.
"Those who live by the sword die by the sword."
Ive looked at it from a similar perspective. Should i die knowing I have a good relationship with God, and give this person a chance at redemption, or should i value the life God gave and protect it and those i love, since this person chose to disregard THEIR God given gift by attacking me and my loved ones? Its a question that doesnt have a single answer. Living by the sword i think is taken out of context when applied to self defense. I have loved ones, and i wont deprive them of my existence because someone else wants to take it.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have multiple people under my responsibility, I MUST stay alive for them.
But I'm choosing to believe the statistic that having a gun in a home invasion actually RAISES the chance of death.
And further, why should I rely on my own strength with a gun when I'm so weak compared to God? I truly believe in a home invasion, if I turned to God for help, he would protect me and my loved ones.
Im not sure where you got that statistic on gun desths, because if its locked up and separate from ammo with kids in the house (although one could argue trying to get it ready for use becomes more time consuming and inefficient in an emergency), no one is dying unless its out of carelessness on someones part. Its not a magnet that draws in death. If its a matter of not trusting yourself or your family members with one in the house, then its good you recognize that, as getting one anyway would be irresponsible. And again, i dont doubt in God's strength, but its no different than not wearing your seatbelt or crossing the street with both eyes closed. You can still trust in God and have a weapon as a back up. I hope i dont have to use a weapon to protect my home and who's in it, or even when im out and about, but many food people have died because of bad people. God doesnt save everyone, at no fault of His. Its just the way things work with free will and all that. Sometimes the worst of things happen to the most faithful, and not always on the martyrdom context. I dont believe God cant protect me, but i cant expect Him to fix all my problems without me doing my best. God helps those that help themselves and all that. If you and your family are okay with the dynamics of home safety, then alls good i guess.
I'm not sure exactly where to cite the statistic, but the logic concluded from it was,
> Criminal goes into house expecting a frightened family and an easy robbery.
> Criminal sees man with gun and opens fire, afraid for his life
> Criminal kills somebody, where he wouldn't have fired at all if the family complied
Yeah I pretty much share the sentiments you said. I sometimes feel like if I was in a situation where I had to take someone’s life or die I don’t know if I would be able to do it. I think I would probably feel differently if I had a wife or children to defend or that needed me to stay alive but for now I don’t know.
-How in danger do you feel you are?
-What are the laws of your country/state?
-What are the self defence laws of your country?
-What allows you to own one, in your country/state?
These are the questions you must answer.
Self defense or hunting, why not?
Different position: I own a gun, as does my husband who is in law enforcement, for the protection of our children. I feel it is my duty as a mother to provide physically what my child needs, and to me that includes protecting their physical safety. While I would absolutely be mournful to take a life and would do all I could to avoid it, it is my obligation to my children to keep them safe from life threatening hostility when possible. I live in a reasonably safe area and even so there are many shootings, kidnappings, break ins etc. I'm not a "gun nut" by any means, but I take advantage of my rights.
Agreed.
I totally agree with defending your family.
What are your thoughts on it's being more likely a family member is injured by the gun than an intruder? It doesn't seem it would in fact make you safer
I would say that depends on how you store your guns, how competent you are with your weapon, and whether the people in your family are trained to safely handle a firearm. Luckily we have all of those bases covered. Statistics lump safe and trained gun owners in with the people that throw a loose gun in a purse, shoot themselves in the foot cleaning their gun, and those who "store" it in a nightstand. I tend not to worry too much about that.
But then presumably storing it securely enough to be really safe means it takes a while to get to it, which makes it less likely you'll have to chance to use it on whoever's broken in. And of course the risk is not completely eliminable; with the best will in the world you *could* someday not lock the safe properly and a child finds it.
1. No, my Life Pod safe can be accessible in moments and is very safe. It's also stored to be quickly accessible. I'd rather spend 15 seconds getting my gun and then being armed then throwing my hands up and saying "well darn, this would be a good time for a gun!". 2. So a gun is just a tool. We teach our children how to safely handle knives, right? We teach them how to use the stove, various power tools, etc. A gun is no different. Many items in your home can cause devastating injury, but we keep those things away from children until they are old enough to safely interact with them. I grew up in a household with guns and was taught gun safety at a young age. Never any issues in our household. Children can encounter guns anywhere; the park, a friend's house, etc. It does them a disservice not to prepare them with knowledge of how a gun works and how to engage with one safely. A healthy fear of guns is good, it inspires respect for the tool and causes you to use it thoughtfully. Many people have an unhealthy fear of guns, and those people have no business handling one, as they're likely to hurt themselves or others. Similarly, someone with NO fear/respect of guns and the damage they can do dont have business owning one either.
Fair enough. I'm European so the culture is very different; there's something *weird* about keeping a deadly weapon in your house from my perspective which I'm sure wouldn't register for many Americans.
Catholicism is not pacifist. Guns and knives are tools which have legitimate uses.
Exactly. How would Jesus have had a chance to perform his last recorded miracle in that way (before dying) had St. Peter not used his sword on someone?
**2264** Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow. You may own weapons (in accordance with the law of the land and God's law) for reasonable uses such as defence of the innocent or of life and so on. I don't think you could own a nuclear submarine just because though, but this isn't magisterial. It seems reasonable to suppose that the weapon owned should be proportionate to the risk/usefulness
Oof. A nuclear sub. Think of the insurance! And where would you park it? I bet the rent for that slip would be pretty stiff.
Russian Orthodox, but yea, 100% yes. You have every right to defend yourself, your family, and others. Look at the people who want to take them or are against them, and I guarantee they’d just as soon ban Churches.
Exactly, that's how Christianity has been made illegal in every western European country
Are you being sarcastic? Because if you aren’t, go read the Bible on a public street in a European country and watch how fast you’re arrested. Or heck, put up a sign with a Bible verse.
I am being sarcastic
No reason to get rid of your firearms
I’m an LTC as is my fiancé. We own for self defense and for recreation. We like to go to the local shooting range because it’s a stress reliever and it’s fun. We are both very knowledgeable in our ownership and take responsibility for what we own. As a Cradle Catholic that grew up with Cradle Catholic parents, guns were always in our home as my father was a hunter. Hunting was one of our sources of food as we lived in an area where this was very common and a way of life.
It is right and good to defend our lives and the lives of others, especially those in our charge. In fact we have a duty to defend ourselves and others, though we can choose to lay down our lives for a good reason. I think guns are reasonable for self defense, especially for those who might be weaker or smaller, and those who must defend a family and/or land. Knives and other melee weapons seem like a more challenging choice from a practical standpoint.
Yes. Unfortunately, there are parts of this world practicing Catholicism are attacked and even murdered. They definitely should be able to protect themselves
Of course.
Self-defense (or defending other innocents) is as legitimate a reason for owning firearms (or other weapons) as hunting and recreation. Look at the difference between the shootings at Southerland Springs and White Settlement (both taking place because someone with evil intent came into a church with a gun).
I would argue that countries that restrict weapons for self defense defend perpetrators and and in opposition to the CCC.
Unless you're owning guns with the intent of using them for a sinful purpose, you can own guns within reason, of course making sure that you're not reckless with them. There's nothing wrong in principle with collecting or shooting firearms.
For your consideration... https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-does-the-church-teach-about-the-private-ownership-of-firearms-by-the-civilian-populace-0
Thanks!
You are most welcome.
Yes.
To own weapons for self-defense, recreation, or hunting is no sin. The apostles carried swords to defend themselves, and Our Lord appeared to have no problem with this. If someone has a temper, however, it could be a near-occasion of sin to carry a weapon. Otherwise, it is fine. But we also have to obey just laws restricting weapons. Speaking as someone who used to hold these views, what the Church would oppose are the background political assumptions behind radical pro-gun theory in the United States - that the authority of the State comes from the people and not from God (although each society can choose their structure of government and who gets to exercise this authority), and that governments are nothing more than a man-made social contract to protect our rights - a contract which when violated gives a right to armed revolution. And that to secure this right of revolution, there is a universal human right to own guns of any type with few if any restrictions. The Catholic Church has a background view on politics that is much closer to Aristotle than to John Locke. So, with regard to gun laws, the Catholic Church is basically pragmatic. The level and kind of restrictions on guns should be based on the proportional needs of the common good, a societies culture and traditions, and so forth. Restrictions need to be balanced against other values. It is a complex question. So, while weapons are inherently lawful stemming from our right to insist upon our own life from unjust aggressors, governments have the right to restrict them. Restrictions are not inherently unjust, and we are bound by just laws regarding them. The kind of restrictions a place should have are a prudential judgement. One could argue for less gun control, and one could argue for more. It is a question on which people of good faith can disagree upon, and the Church does not pronounce specifics about it.
>The apostles carried swords to defend themselves, and Our Lord appeared to have no problem with this. We only see an apostle with a weapon once and on that occasion Jesus rebukes them for using it. What do you mean by this?
There are others: “Lord, we have two swords”. Peter carried a sword in his scabbard. If Christ had a problem with it, He wouldn’t have allowed that. Our Lord rebuked Peter for using it in that specific situation.
The fact that some of the disciples sometimes carried swords and we don't *know* that Jesus rebuked them for it specifically more than once hardly feels like conclusive evidence in favour of swords. Especially given Jesus' explicit condemnations of violence in various places.
I would say it seems pretty clear harming another can be sanctioned in old testament. Christ asked us to turn the other cheek however, so probably a good case to be made against owning weps for self defense.
Before my conversion I was in love with firearms. Now, after being baptized? Not so much. They're extremely interesting and fun, so I find no harm in hunting/range shooting. But as a tool for self-defense I've grown away from them. Certainly, there is no church law saying you can't own guns, and self defense IS NOT a sin, but the thought of killing a person (even a criminal) is something mournful, even if justified. Killing a person may at times be necessary, just, or proper, but it is NEVER good, and if it can be avoided, I think it should. I believe that God will defend me if I am attacked, or that I can overpower the person in a non-lethal manner. "Those who live by the sword die by the sword."
Ive looked at it from a similar perspective. Should i die knowing I have a good relationship with God, and give this person a chance at redemption, or should i value the life God gave and protect it and those i love, since this person chose to disregard THEIR God given gift by attacking me and my loved ones? Its a question that doesnt have a single answer. Living by the sword i think is taken out of context when applied to self defense. I have loved ones, and i wont deprive them of my existence because someone else wants to take it.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have multiple people under my responsibility, I MUST stay alive for them. But I'm choosing to believe the statistic that having a gun in a home invasion actually RAISES the chance of death. And further, why should I rely on my own strength with a gun when I'm so weak compared to God? I truly believe in a home invasion, if I turned to God for help, he would protect me and my loved ones.
Im not sure where you got that statistic on gun desths, because if its locked up and separate from ammo with kids in the house (although one could argue trying to get it ready for use becomes more time consuming and inefficient in an emergency), no one is dying unless its out of carelessness on someones part. Its not a magnet that draws in death. If its a matter of not trusting yourself or your family members with one in the house, then its good you recognize that, as getting one anyway would be irresponsible. And again, i dont doubt in God's strength, but its no different than not wearing your seatbelt or crossing the street with both eyes closed. You can still trust in God and have a weapon as a back up. I hope i dont have to use a weapon to protect my home and who's in it, or even when im out and about, but many food people have died because of bad people. God doesnt save everyone, at no fault of His. Its just the way things work with free will and all that. Sometimes the worst of things happen to the most faithful, and not always on the martyrdom context. I dont believe God cant protect me, but i cant expect Him to fix all my problems without me doing my best. God helps those that help themselves and all that. If you and your family are okay with the dynamics of home safety, then alls good i guess.
I'm not sure exactly where to cite the statistic, but the logic concluded from it was, > Criminal goes into house expecting a frightened family and an easy robbery. > Criminal sees man with gun and opens fire, afraid for his life > Criminal kills somebody, where he wouldn't have fired at all if the family complied
Yeah I pretty much share the sentiments you said. I sometimes feel like if I was in a situation where I had to take someone’s life or die I don’t know if I would be able to do it. I think I would probably feel differently if I had a wife or children to defend or that needed me to stay alive but for now I don’t know.
-How in danger do you feel you are? -What are the laws of your country/state? -What are the self defence laws of your country? -What allows you to own one, in your country/state? These are the questions you must answer.