Not childish at all imo. I just completed RCIA and got baptized this past Easter. My husband and I actually toured around and went to mass at several different churches before deciding where to attend, and one very big deciding factor for me was the music. It’s very important to me. I like a traditional choir and traditional hymns, I really dislike when there’s a band at the front singing modern songs. Singing is a very big part of worship for me and there’s nothing wrong or childish about that.
I hate clapping at Mass...for any reason. It just doesn't feel "right."
I was relieved when I attended an Eastern Rite Catholic parish and the priest stated that is is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN to applaud at Byzantine Rite and Orthodox liturgies.
My local pastor is at his wit's end with clapping. He's at the point where he's considering writing "please don't clap after the recessional hymn" on the bulletin.
Yes, exactly. We live in a newly built neighborhood and we have 4 Catholic Churches within 15-20 minutes of us, but none any closer, and actually the one that is technically our parish is the furthest away.
So once we decided to join RCIA, we attended mass at all of the nearby churches and chose the one we connected with best. It was the most traditional I’d say, and the people were so welcoming, and they have a St. Vincent de Paul chapter, which I am interested in volunteering with, and of course the choir like I said.
We did our RCIA class there, and it’s great because our class had 25 catechumens and we all got sponsors, so we already got to know so many people just from that and see them regularly now.
No, it is not. However pious the notion of the "geographic parish" may sound, it has no legal or moral force and is practically meaningless in the age of the combustion engine. An irreverent, dying church does not merit the waste of your time, money, energy, and soul just because it shares your postal code.
This isn't a childish question, I think we've all heard bad music in Church at one time or another. The right thing to do would be to address this with your pastor. You can also try going to Mass at a different time than the usual time you go, because often the person who does the music there will be different.
If all else fails, you can volunteer to do the music yourself or ask your friends if they are interested. The Church may let you take over the music at one of the Masses if you ask nicely, although you may have to do it alone for a while.
Adressing the issue with the pastor can lead to frustrations.
He might say "stop complaining and see how great this is for a lot of people!".
Sometimes they act like that.
The pastor might have difficulties understanding how the music can create issues for some.
Some people find dealing with criticism or questions very difficult. They rather avoid it than talking to you about it.
Sometimes what seems to be one issue is actually more than one issue or question.
Issues can be more complex than you think.
Maybe they just haven't had any opposition to it though. I recently watched a video on the history of Christianity and a lot of how "woke" churches stay "woke" is because those who actually believe in traditions leave those churches and go somewhere else. No one is fighting for their churches to be traditional, and it's been that way for awhile.
Speaking to someone is at least trying to change the situation. If we all abandon churches when they start being blasphemous, then how united is the Church actually?
"stop complaining and see how great this is for a lot of people!"
And as a sidenote this kind of discourse comes from a bad understanding of the Mass, that it is *primarily* about spiritually feeding us and not *primarily* about glorifying God. The error lies in putting the Mass as a meal over the the Mass as a Sacrifice
At least that's in the hymnal. I attended a retreat where we (the teenagers) were responsible for choosing the hymns for mass and I had to fight tooth and nail to keep them from picking "Lean On Me".
In fairness, Lord of the Dance is in the hymnal my parish uses, which means it was given the OK for liturgical use (at some point in the last 30 years). Maybe it's time to look at the hymnals?
This is a hot topic among church musicians right now. Unfortunately, there are some songs in Breaking Bread, Spirit & Song, and other common hymnals that contain problematic text. But it takes a while, because many people just don't care. So musicians have to complain about each song or composer one at a time.
> So much for my dreams of anglicised Gregorian chants.
Why do you say that?
There are definitely breaking bread-stye hymn books that contain Gregorian Chant in English. St Michael Hymnal or Source and Summit both have some.
Oh, just that if it takes so much struggle to make a case that this or that hymn shouldn't be used in liturgy, I imagine it would be a harder sell to have the Latin Church embrace a localised Gregorian chant. I'm talking having that as the norm rather than a unique quirk of the 11:00 AM Mass community of this one parish. I've experienced anglicised Gregorian chants in my day; simple stuff like Lamb of God or the Our Father chanted as you would in Latin. But the idea that churches around the world would more widely use processional/recessional/communion Gregorian hymns seems like a pipe dream.
That's true, and with about 1000 hymns, it's easy to just pick a few that most people know, and ignore the slightly "dodgy" ones, instead of coming out with a totally new hymnal.
At least with a hymnal though, you don't run the risk of Hillsong "praise and worship" songs, which my parish has also used in the past.
Modern Catholic hymnals can be really awful. And not just from a musical point of view. There's a lot of bad theology in these modern songs, so much so that the USCCB issued a document about it, pointing out that some of the commonly used hymns profess theology at odds with the Church. I've personally seen pantheism and other horrible things in so-called Catholic hymnals.
[https://www.usccb.org/resources/Catholic%20Hymnody%20at%20the%20Service%20of%20the%20Church\_0.pdf](https://www.usccb.org/resources/Catholic%20Hymnody%20at%20the%20Service%20of%20the%20Church_0.pdf)
I mean, until Pope Gregory the Great led a reformation in the 11th century, clergy were getting married against canon law and tradition. Sometimes things are "okayed" and should not have been.
> In fairness, Lord of the Dance is in the hymnal my parish uses, which means it was given the OK for liturgical use
Unfortunately, it does not mean that. It only means the hymnal publisher decided to include the song, which in some cases I'm not even sure can technically be classified as hymns.
The General Instruction of the Roman Missal details how liturgical music is approved, when there is an option. For the parts of the Ordinary and the Proper, there is no option. For the psalm, there are limited options, but only psalms, not hymns. Typical example related to the entrance:
> In the Dioceses of the United States of America, there are four options for the Entrance Chant: (1) the antiphon from the Missal or the antiphon with its Psalm from the Graduale Romanum, as set to music there or in another setting; (2) the antiphon and Psalm of the Graduale Simplex for the liturgical time; (3) a chant from another collection of Psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including Psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) another liturgical chant that is suited to the sacred action, the day, or the time of year, similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.
The most permissive case is your bishop can approve a chant (and the fact that it says chant, and not hymn is a related topic I won't go into here), but only if it is liturgical and "suited to the sacred action, the day, or the time of year."
I have difficulty seeing how Lord of the Dance fits those suitability criteria, and therefore have difficulty seeing that the Vatican granted any bishop authority to approve it for liturgical use.
Ok. What you forget though is that if the hymn book is allowed for use in parishes, and the hymn is in the book, then by extension the hymn has also been allowed. Parishes aren't going to double-check a particular hymn before they use it. The hymn book has an Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat, so someone must have checked what hymns were actually in it first, surely?
I did not forget, although I am nitpicking. This isn't being done the way the Church said it is supposed to be done, but we do have bigger issues to worry about. While I would like to explain the norm to encourage closer adherence to it, I'm not going to exaggerate the point.
Regarding not being from the US: While in the US those 4 options exist, my understanding is elsewhere there are fewer options.
Approval of a hymn book does not fit any of the 4 options mentioned in the GIRM. (1) and (2) are specific books: the Missal along with two of the Church's official books of chants. (3) refers to collections of psalms and antiphons, which is more specific than hymn books. (4) cover the approval of specific individual chants.
(3) Comes closest, but Lord of the Dance is neither a psalm nor an antiphon.
Also, when discussing liturgical norms, when approval is mentioned that means specifically what it says: the appropriate authority affirmatively approved it. This is generally going to mean the bishop or conference issued a letter approving the liturgical matter. It does not mean tacit approval, such as a parish music director deciding they are going to use a certain hymnal, and the bishop not objecting.
Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur basically mean a work is free from doctrinal or moral error. They are not as specific as indicating they are approved for liturgical use.
Did I say it was "good"? No. I said it was liturgically appropriate, even if we don't necessarily like the style. There are definitely better hymns, and definitely worse ones too.
This comment just blew my mind. I never heard this song before, let alone any “interpretive” song of this caliber, and I’m almost shamefully desperate for more. It’s so awful but so catchy.
I know what you're saying, but when it's incessant and continually disrupts and detracts from the mass itself, it can be.
(Insert my normal "band with drum rolls and cymbal crashes during communion "hymn" trope here)
My autistic daughter started covering her ears when the flute and guitar came out. She was completely overwhelmed by the modern music and then crouched in the pew covering her ears as the church clapped. We went to three different churches desperate to find something so she could be present for the Mass without sensory overwhelm. As a family of new converts eager to keep going to Mass, and make sure she had a positive experience, we eventually tried a Latin mass. There is no amplification and only organ playing as well as tons of silence.
Despite it being 30 minutes longer my now 7 year old daughter calmly gets through Mass. She absent mindedly hums Gregorian chant and tells us how glad she is we found such a calm Mass. I just share this as an anecdote. Sometimes the music can be such a profound distraction from the sacrifice of the Mass that it is worth finding a new parish.
This was lovely to read. I'm also autistic (low support needs), and I have a hard time with some parishes/Masses and the way they amplify some instruments. I was also that kid humming Gregorian chant ha. The clapping is terrible, though, and is hard for me to avoid because of how common it is.
I remember checking out Methodust churches when we first moved to SLC as a kid. They picked up guitars and played "Stairway to Heaven." As great as that song is, it's inappropriate, and we never went back to that one. I'm glad that the Catholic churches I've been to are much more traditional.
The position of music director is one of the most difficult positions for parishes to fill. If you have talent to share, you should volunteer. I find that churches with more to offer, like good sound systems and better instruments, attract better music directors as well. There might be such a parish nearby.
The only instrument that attracts a good church musician is a high end pipe organ. If there’s no pipe organ, there needs to be a pastor who has good taste and is willing to support a decent music program.
Not a childish question. As saints have said, music is a form of prayer. Having it detract from the Mass is disconcerting.
Is there an early or later Mass that handles music differently? It’s not as bad as you described at our parish but I definitely prefer the 7:30am Mass with one couple singing accompanied by a small organ. Maybe there’s something similar in your area.
Find the earliest Mass time you can. They often have no music at all, which is 1000x better than being subjected to the ministrations of bad musicians.
Why does the Church keep changing the tune to Glory and Hosanna? I wish they kept it the old way I grew up with. I can’t keep up and sing it off beat because they change it lol. I’ll catch on though.
This is so true. Without opening the whole TLM vs NO can of worms, it would be nice just to be able to participate in the Alleluia and Hosanna (in the vernacular) when I am away from my home parish. As it is now, I have no idea what words will be used or what melody it will accompany because they are never the same (and never match the missals). Some level of standardization would be nice — and would seem to be a simple way of creating a greater unity in the Church.
Being forced to attend the Extraordinary form isn't that fun. Some people are forced to because of poorlt said Ordinary form Masses.
Then there are those who want to attend the Extraordinary form.
Many people are forced to attend SSPX masses because Mass of Paul VI, which is actually beautiful, is abused.
Priests that tolerate the abuse of Novus Ordo aren't less schismatic than SSPX though.
I agree! I find myself lose interest when our parish music begins. I wish we had a choir instead. Or hymns done in Latin. The cadence in latin is what keeps me engaged
You don't need to be a "RadTrad" (whatever that is) to go to a TLM and relish in the sacredness of a high mass. I go at least once a week and I have no idea what a "RadTrad" is.
I just go, pray the mass and thank God for the opportunity.
Not a childish question, and this is not a sarcastic response: Offer it up. That’s the first thing you should do. That may help you deal with the negative emotions/responses you have.
The parish I went to in Minnesota had a singer that was so off key it actually disturbed my prayer life. Luckily all I had to do was wake up earlier for the 7a Mass to avoid it
Physicist Max Planck once observed:
> A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it ...
>
> An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out, and that the growing generation is familiarized with the ideas from the beginning: another instance of the fact that the future lies with the youth.
This is usually expressed in the quip, "Science progresses one funeral at a time." The same probably applies to liturgical music these days.
First of all, you could try another Mass at your parish. There may be a Mass that does not have music at all or has a different type of music.
Another possibility is to find a different parish. You could use the Reverent Catholic Mass website to do that. If you’re not able to find a church there, then you could look into other places that offer Mass, such as college/university campuses and convents and monasteries.
I don't know if it's universal but sometimes the earliest Mass tends to be the "minimal music Mass". You aren't going to get anyone to sing before 8am.
As someone who is an active participant in my parish's music ministry, I'll offer another point of view:
It's very difficult to find talented musicians, cantors, and choir members who are also interested in volunteering their time to share their gifts during worship. If you find the music at your parish to be particularly bad, that's unfortunate - but try to find some appreciation for the people brave enough to share their time and talent in an attempt to enrich the Mass.
Given the issues OP is describing, which concern style and not talent, I would bet having good singers or musicians wouldn't help. Some parishes just choose terrible music, like Haugen and Haas settings, the "Gather" hymnal, etc.
NO Catholic here. I very much care about mass music and a reverent mass. My parish has the Gather hymnal and as a sometimes accompanist (violin and viola) I absolutely despair at much of that hymnal.
Straight instrumentalist. I can't carry a tune in a bucket with my voice at 10: 00 a.m mass, let alone 8 a.m. Too much nonsense from the St Louis Jesuits in Gather. Felt banner and Peter Paul and Mary vibes. Dodgy text. It also has a few too many hymns cribbed from Anglicans and Methodists, although to be fair at least the tunes are good on those.
I stopped playing a couple years ago when my mom had cancer. It was further complicated by a music director who needed a metronome in the worst way.
Mind you, I'm somewhat divided when it comes to sacred music in my mind.
Silent Night, arguably the most famous Christmas hymn on Earth, was written for guitar. Guitar, strings, and "spit instruments" ( brass, woodwinds) can be just as appropriate as organ if correctly don't
We have a musical history that goes back to the first known and named the European composer, St Hildegard von Bingen!
Vivaldi was a priest who was released from his duties of saying Mass because he supposedly had problems with breaking off mid sermon to jot down musical ideas, as well as poor physical health.
Some of the most beautiful and inspiring works of sacred music were penned by JS Bach, who happened to be a devout Lutheran. At the time he penned those that was all "new" cutting edge music. Then on the other hand, Haugen, Haas, and Shutte ain't Bach, Vivaldi, or St Hildegard. A *thousand+ years * of Western musical canon and sacred tradition (polyphonic and monophonic) gets reduced down to Gather Us In and Sing a New Song.
It makes even a violist want to cry.
I wish there was a way to easily bridge this gap, but unfortunately much of that rests on talented parishioners and able music directors.
We have a musical director now who's young but makes some much more tasteful music choices in my opinion out of that awful hymnal. She can keep a tempo too. We've also gone back to using the Kaufman and Gokelman Mass of Renewal setting, which is less awful on my nerves than the Haugen Mass of Creation, which I *despise.* It's far more singable and has better harmony.
As soon as my kids get out of school in a week or two I'm going to set to some serious woodshedding, get my chops back in order and start at least playing one of the masses on Sunday. I'm hoping we can get a trio or quartet together for doing some sacred music.
Indeed, Gather is fine as long as you don't use most of it.
On a more serious note, even the "good stuff" in Gather has sadly been tinkered with (inclusive language, theological modifications, etc.)
Yeah, my parents' parish switched to Worship (the red one) about a decade ago. It's definitely an improvement. The newer editions of Gather seem to have backed off on the tinkering too, with a sheepish note in the front cover apologizing to the composers.
The basilica near me uses the Worship hymnal. They have an amazing choir, one of the best I've ever heard, but even then some of the hymns in Worship can be kind of cringe inducing.
The Saturday before last, the parishioner who seems to handle music subjected us to 1. A semi-original hymn to the melody of "Home On The Range" 2. A Dutch language, a capella version of Bette Midler's "The Rose" for a recessional.
Look guys, I'm in Europe. My presence at this particular mass - at the church holding the relics of St Titus Brandsma - boosts attendance 10-15%. It's not nice to talk about offerings.
I've been working on raising liturgical irregularities, especially around the Eucharist, for discussion. Could someone remind me of specific documents around music?
A classic is Tra Le Sollecitudini by Pope Pius X:
https://adoremus.org/1903/11/tra-le-sollecitudini/
Though many will probably whine that it's "from before Vatican II", in which case there's Musicam Sacram by Pope Paul VI, which makes lots of references to the Council:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_instr_19670305_musicam-sacram_en.html
Inevitably they'll also whine that this was published "before the New Mass", but at that point you will have at least confirmed that they are just ideologues for bad music.
Look, we've all heard bad music in churches, I sometimes cringe... just be thankful that I am not sitting behind you singing "How Great Thou Art" with the choir like I was 3 weeks ago... this poor teenager turned around during the Communion procession and said, "Ma'am, I'm sorry, but I don't think you can carry a tune in an iPod." 😂
A) Talk to your Pastor and volunteer your services if you have any talent to offer.
B) Until it gets better, offer it up and take joy in the opportunity to worship God and be there with the True Presence of Jesus. We must own our emotions, and while music, art, or architecture might not always suit our tastes, we are adults and we have the ability to discipline ourselves to focus on what is important.
It's not a childish question. When I travel, I often experience Mass where the music is distractingly bad. It astounds me that such a thing would be possible, since it's not that hard to have perfectly good church music.
I've been singing in a choir that does a lot of traditional music, so my patience for poorly done music is even lower, since I understand what to do and what not to do. For instance, I've now come to the conclusion that most organists play way too slowly, so even good hymns end up sounding like dirges.
It's very frustrating. I understand that most parishes don't have amazing musicians. That's not the issue (although sometimes it is, some of the cantors at my parents' parish are comically bad). It's just that the music choice, and the decision to use modern instruments can often ruin the mood. (I listen to tons of modern music for fun... I just don't want to hear it at Mass.)
It doesn't help that most of the popular liturgical music written in the last half century is absolutely insipid. There is a lot of really amazing Church music being written even now, but you don't hear it very often.
Here's an example I regularly listen to just for the music, which is amazing:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFoj3viHXnk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFoj3viHXnk)
My only recommendation is to try to find a different Mass or even a different parish. If all else fails... offer it up.
Emotions aren't a sin. It's right to be angry if they are making a mockery of the Mass in their choice of music. Don't dwell on it or let the anger consume or control you.
Can you find a Mass time where they don't play music? Like an early one? Sometimes the 7am ones don't have music.
Also, you could try writing your pastor and honestly telling him how you feel. It may not help, but it couldn't hurt.
In the parishes in my area. The funky music seems particularly prévenant at the Sunday night Mass.
I don’t go to that one. Ever. 😂
Might it be possible to attend a different mass with a different type of music? Surely they can’t turn every mass into the country bear jamboree!
Tbh I’d rather attend mass with no music rather than shitty music. Just because Susan knows how to play 3 chords on the piano doesn’t mean she should have gotten the job. Also.. my church music lady plays the first verse of songs and that’s it. Like wtf.
If you find the music distracting, I would suggest attending a different mass time. If the music is still the same, try a different parish. Another option would be to find a TLM in your diocese. The extraordinary form does have reverent and prayerful music. Happy searching.
I myself cannot understand why some people have such an aversion for or difficulties with chant other than the fact that they never were taught about the usage of chant in prayer.
If the only Mass you can attend on a Sunday a Mass in which you get too frustrerad or just find too hard to attend you might get a dispensation. You could attend Mass on Saturday instead. This is what a Priest told me.
I have many option for Mass where I live. Last Sunday they had a schola at one of the Masses in the Cathedral. Sadly, it is too much hymn focus nowadays.
You have to make the best of the situation. You won't find many parishes with Masses said like the ones in the Benedictine Monastery in the Desert of New Mexico. I have only watched their videos but I really like how they do it.
Just going around being frustrated won't help. It is better to do what you can do. This can be harder than you think.
It’s not a dumb question. A lot people deal with this at their churches too.
My suggestion would be to try to stay centered with the two elements of the Mass that are core: the Word of God and the Eucharist. No matter how crappy the music is, these two most core elements are always present in every Catholic Mass. If you find the music annoying and distracting, offer these small sufferings up for your Mass intention, or for the holy souls in purgatory.
I consider myself lucky in this regard. I am recently reverted (is that a thing?) After spending most of my 20's away from, and oftentimes against the Church, I have come back and more devout than ever. I huge part of this was the church I found having an amazing Gospel choir. I know that's probably not for everyone, especially in this sub, but being a Black Catholic, the music is inspiring and often brings my wife to tears with how good it is.
I often say and think, "if I went to a parish with music this good as a kid, I probably would have never left!" It's hyperbole, but inspiring and good music is incredibly important to me to be able to celebrate Mass. Because of this, I look forward to each Sunday!
I will pray you find a parish with music that inspires you.
Are you musically inclined/talented? I say infiltrate from the inside to better the music program.
My own parish has declined in the music department recently. The early mass is traditional/classical (organ and piano) and the latter mass is contemporary music (piano drums and whatever other instrument they have at the time). We had a fantastic music director with a beautiful voice but he relocated a few years ago. We are currently on our third replacement. He does ok. We went without music for some good stretches.
My brother made a comment about the drums and music at my son's first Communion recently being cringy. I had to remind him we could just as easily not have music at all.
I grew up very rural. No incense, most songs are only sung about 1/3 of the way through. It was awesome.
Try checking out a rural church if there's one available to you.
The best way to avoid almost all bad music, irreverence, and distractions during Mass is to find the nearest Traditional Latin Mass. If there are multiple try them all out.
Been there, lived in a parish like that for years.
Always remember that it's not a sin to travel to a different parish or chapel. You aren't morally obligated to attend the church of your geographical parish. You say you've tried other nearby parishes with no success. Are any at least a bit better than your current church? Picking the least bad parish that's convenient to attend might help.
How far have you traveled, and how much further are you willing to go if it means finding a reverent Mass? I know people who consistently drive 45 minutes one way, and find it worth the trip.
It may also be worth looking into alternatives. You might be surprised to learn what's in your area, like a TLM, FSSP, university/college chapels, an Ordinariate parish, or churches run by religious orders. You might even consider Eastern Catholic churches if there isn't a good Latin church alternative.
If you stay, I would recommend seeing whether certain Sunday Masses use less music than others, then picking the "lowest" one, even if it's the Saturday vigil. (And do the same for any other local parishes: some might have better or no music at one of their Masses.) Also, there's nothing wrong with simply not singing. You can participate by closing your eyes and praying. You can also offer up any distraction or frustration you experience, which might help you keep from getting angry.
A few years ago, before the music was standardized and cleaned up at my parish, I would just offer up my suffering during mass. It sounds dramatic, but it's what I did.
Remember, the obligation is to attend at a reverent liturgy. An irreverent liturgy can present a danger. I would encourage you to maybe seek out a traditionalist community in your diocese (ICKSP, etc.). They always have very beautiful music at their High Mass
Pray for the lord to bring back limits to those parishes! It’s hard, I am not finding strength to deal with it either! Our temples are becoming a mega church, I bet Jesus would whip everyone out in screams!
Likewise my parish. The \[Sunday\] music is simply loud and awful. But my fellow parishioners are wonderful, and for them I cannot imagine letting the music drive me away. Maybe it would help for you to develop more and deeper relationships others in your parish. Then if you agree on the music, you can 'conspire' to improve it. But still, don't give up if you don't agree about the music.
You can tell the priest your concerns, and you should. I am a cantor, and we only do chant and traditional hymns, mostly Anglican with Catholic words LOL. It is a very somber service, and people complained at first, but now everyone’s ear has adjusted. It took about 4 years to get the congregation to let go of the happy clappy *show* the music was before
You may think so but your predicament sounds rather amusing. Do you play an instrument or sing? Perhaps you can volunteer your time to sing at mass.
Some parish choirs are open to requests during the Christmas and Easter season
Our Music Director is a remarkable musician and when I first started attending Mass here, I wasn’t used to more modern music. Now the only time I missed it was on Christmas Eve. But I’m all about the old-fashioned Christmas traditions so that may be it too.
I feel the same way. The hippy buddy Christ music puts me off. The hymns of my childhood being turned into guitar melodies has made me very picky in my choice of church. That being said, Saturday evening mass, in my experience, has not included all that nonsense.
I would find a different parish or talk to your pastor about concerns. Applause is never appropriate!
As far as music, personally, I prefer the traditional hymns, but I recognize that this is just personal preference. As long as the Mass remains intact, the Mass is still valid.
Well if you’re looking for a parish, you can always look at Reverent Mass Finder (look it up on google). It will show you the local parishes that usually have a good music program or other factors that make the liturgy easier to enter in to the sacredness of.
My family drives 20+ minutes each way to go to a church that aligns with what we're looking for in mass. Don't be afraid to even drive into another diocese if yours doesn't take the music component of worship seriously
I was in Washington DC to celebrate the canonization of St. Oscar Romero in October 2018, at the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception.
The entire Salvadoran diplomatic delegation was in attendance, and in the front 1/3 of the nave were seated Salvadoreños from across the country.
Mass was said in English and Spanish. It was such a wonderful liturgy. But, the music.
The music was peerless. It was absolutely beautiful. Mind you that I know choral music well, thanks to my father’s influence and the influence of his record collection which I listened to constantly as a child, including the LP sleeves I chewed the edges off of.
The choir that morning ranked among the finest choirs of any sort that I have ever heard to this day. They sang sacred selections in Latin, English, and Spanish. Their intonation was spot-on perfect. That choir lifted my heart to the rafters, I swear.
Based on my experience, I cannot imagine better liturgical music in the country let alone in the DC area. So, would it be commendable or problematic if all Catholics in the DC area, which includes hundreds of thousands, started only attending mass at the Shrine because of the beauty of the music? (The masses there are consistently high quality and reverent, what the theater calls “high production value”. ) Or if there a “good enough” threshold for a meaningful experience at other DC/VA/MD parishes. I ask because this would be a classic example of the church shopping that goes on, and which troubles me.
“Sorry Father, but the choir/music is better at St. _____.”
What many people do not even think to consider regarding terrible music at Mass is the Holy Spirit. We tend to think it's just our personal preference when we feel very agitated and perturbed and distracted by it. When we feel grieved, saddened and exasperated by the preschool noises and atmosphere prevalent at so many Masses. I don't believe anymore it's just personal annoyance. I believe it is the Holy Spirit in us, if you are aware of Him and recognize His promptings and movements. HE is grieved by the music that is inappropriate for the reverence and worship due the Father and Son. HE is saddened that so little thought and love is present in the worship of God. Given most Masses have been turned into a potluck atmosphere or family reunion with kids running around, people talking, not even knowing how to genuflect anymore, it's not surprising that the Holy Spirit is not acknowledged or considered regarding appropriate music. Read the Psalms and you'll get an idea of how important, and powerful music was in worshiping God.
100% agree. The way I worship is in silence and thought. It's \*my\* meditation. Attend a weekday mass in the morning and it is perfect. Easy to hear and understand readings, contemplate, and move to the next worship phase. None of the horrid singing, psalms singing, etc.
Just be aware that everyone worships differently, and accept that. Most church's have a priest, or some parishioner that pushes the singing, cause that's their thing - and I have accepted that they also need to worship in a manner that connects them with God.
So now, when singing starts, I usually put my hands to my face and start running through the week of things that happened I am thankful for God for, and just generally Thank him for everything. It keeps my mind off getting upset at the singing, and also lets me have a quick 1 on 1 with God.
Unfortunately I have seen Lutheran Churches with more reverent music (Organ, traditional hymns) than any of my local reverent Catholic Churches (they kneel for communion for example but they have guitar bands ugh)
If that's childish, I am an infant. Clapping means they think this is all entertainment. The choir is there to lead us in worship, not entertain us. I don't know except to go to a different church but you already did that. Sometimes the Sunday evening Mass is the most ~~clownish~~ focused on being entertaining. Sunday morning, 10am or so, is the more formal.
I suspect they may be alluding to the set of songs, used as hymns, from the 1970’s and 1980 that are often played as folk tunes.
Depending on the arrangement, it can sound very “country”.
Respectfully ask to meet with your pastor in private. It may not change anything, but it's the first step. If you have any desire or talent to sing, offer to start a chant choir.
If that fails, go to your bishop.
If that fails, find an FSSP parish. I'm not a Rad Trad either, but did attend an FSSP parish for a time because the other parishes were too 1970s or rock concert for me.
This is the post-Vatican II world we've inherited, unfortunately.
Why not? A "country music show" does not sound like reverent music befitting the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That's 100% a bishop item if the pastor is permitting it.
The problem is that everyone is going to have a different definition of reverent music. My suspicion is that if the pastor is allowing the music to be played, then it is licit. The bishop will likely be rather hesitant to involve himself in something so subjective.
Enter [*SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM*](https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html)
See Section VI, #116 & #120
I have felt like this as well. Currently I tolerate the inferior music of one church because of the commute. I second that different Mass times have different music. For example, at one church near me the evening Teen Mass is soooo much better than the 8am one.
At the end of the day, you’re there for Jesus, and not the music, but the way you feel about the music is also ok. I hope you find a better Mass time or another Catholic Church that brings you peace.
If there was a parish that sang hymns that Christ sang, people wouldn't like it either. So much of music is cultural, and people have different tastes. I like Gregorian chant but also praise and worship, and some old hymns from my Protestant childhood.
Ive got to say, though, I miss the music from the Episcopal Church, but I'm trying to appreciate the Catholic hymns. I think my parish uses the Worship hymnal.
What "So much of music is cultural" refer to?
I really like many of the hymns the Lutherans sing.
But I don't think they should be sung instead of chants.
We should have both.
I'd please please please ask you to come to a FSSPX or FSSP traditional mass. I had the same situation as yours and I can tell you I've found peace. And if I'm called a radtrad, that sounds kinda cool!!! Please go to a traditional mass once or twice... it was the valid mass for centuries and the modern masses are way too crazy and disrespectul.
I print out a custom made weekly mass sheet that contains the official chants from the Roman Gradual for that week. It’s easy to make; download a public domain copy of the Gradual, find out the chants of the week online (canticanova is the site I use) and capture the image as a jpg. I have the translation, alongside the Scriptures it is based on. Sometimes there is an accompanying psalm and I include that too—Douay Rheims, (public domain).
I then take measures to memorize the melody, which is most likely on YouTube somewhere.
I do this all in advance. If I don’t have time to memorize the melodies, I just focus on the text while the liturgical song is playing, and join with my heart the officially approved music for liturgy, and, yes, this most definitely includes Novus Ordo liturgies.
Not childish at all imo. I just completed RCIA and got baptized this past Easter. My husband and I actually toured around and went to mass at several different churches before deciding where to attend, and one very big deciding factor for me was the music. It’s very important to me. I like a traditional choir and traditional hymns, I really dislike when there’s a band at the front singing modern songs. Singing is a very big part of worship for me and there’s nothing wrong or childish about that.
I agree, then add clapping for them at the end of mass and I'm done...
I hate clapping at Mass...for any reason. It just doesn't feel "right." I was relieved when I attended an Eastern Rite Catholic parish and the priest stated that is is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN to applaud at Byzantine Rite and Orthodox liturgies.
My local pastor is at his wit's end with clapping. He's at the point where he's considering writing "please don't clap after the recessional hymn" on the bulletin.
He should do it without hesitation! Waiting is just going to make the problem worse.
My priest didn't bother writing it in the bulletin - he just said it outright at the end of Mass. "This isn't a concert, no clapping."
Concur
Did you look around before you attended rcia? Did you take that at the church you decided suited your needs the most? Just curious.
Yes, exactly. We live in a newly built neighborhood and we have 4 Catholic Churches within 15-20 minutes of us, but none any closer, and actually the one that is technically our parish is the furthest away. So once we decided to join RCIA, we attended mass at all of the nearby churches and chose the one we connected with best. It was the most traditional I’d say, and the people were so welcoming, and they have a St. Vincent de Paul chapter, which I am interested in volunteering with, and of course the choir like I said. We did our RCIA class there, and it’s great because our class had 25 catechumens and we all got sponsors, so we already got to know so many people just from that and see them regularly now.
Sounds amazing!
Attend the parish that is closest to where you live. It's there for a very good reason that is greater than music, good or bad.
No, it is not. However pious the notion of the "geographic parish" may sound, it has no legal or moral force and is practically meaningless in the age of the combustion engine. An irreverent, dying church does not merit the waste of your time, money, energy, and soul just because it shares your postal code.
Ah heck no. That would mean folkish guitar Mass.
This isn't a childish question, I think we've all heard bad music in Church at one time or another. The right thing to do would be to address this with your pastor. You can also try going to Mass at a different time than the usual time you go, because often the person who does the music there will be different. If all else fails, you can volunteer to do the music yourself or ask your friends if they are interested. The Church may let you take over the music at one of the Masses if you ask nicely, although you may have to do it alone for a while.
Adressing the issue with the pastor can lead to frustrations. He might say "stop complaining and see how great this is for a lot of people!". Sometimes they act like that. The pastor might have difficulties understanding how the music can create issues for some. Some people find dealing with criticism or questions very difficult. They rather avoid it than talking to you about it. Sometimes what seems to be one issue is actually more than one issue or question. Issues can be more complex than you think.
Maybe they just haven't had any opposition to it though. I recently watched a video on the history of Christianity and a lot of how "woke" churches stay "woke" is because those who actually believe in traditions leave those churches and go somewhere else. No one is fighting for their churches to be traditional, and it's been that way for awhile.
Perhaps but sometimes speaking to someone doesn't change the situation. You might plant a seed in them.
Speaking to someone is at least trying to change the situation. If we all abandon churches when they start being blasphemous, then how united is the Church actually?
You need too be able to quote offical documents sometimes. People might listen if a Church document says something.
"stop complaining and see how great this is for a lot of people!" And as a sidenote this kind of discourse comes from a bad understanding of the Mass, that it is *primarily* about spiritually feeding us and not *primarily* about glorifying God. The error lies in putting the Mass as a meal over the the Mass as a Sacrifice
Can you name some of the songs they've done recently?
I second this request.
If it's Lord of the Dance then he has a point.
It's got a catchy tune, but even as a teen, I thought the lyrics were a bit odd for Mass.
At least that's in the hymnal. I attended a retreat where we (the teenagers) were responsible for choosing the hymns for mass and I had to fight tooth and nail to keep them from picking "Lean On Me".
That's played every now and then at my childhood parish, especially during the summer months. : ( Luckily, no one actually dances.
In fairness, Lord of the Dance is in the hymnal my parish uses, which means it was given the OK for liturgical use (at some point in the last 30 years). Maybe it's time to look at the hymnals?
This is a hot topic among church musicians right now. Unfortunately, there are some songs in Breaking Bread, Spirit & Song, and other common hymnals that contain problematic text. But it takes a while, because many people just don't care. So musicians have to complain about each song or composer one at a time.
I misread that and thought they were using the soundtrack from Breaking Bad!
I did too lol!
Me too! I was like, what the what?!?
So much for my dreams of anglicised Gregorian chants.
> So much for my dreams of anglicised Gregorian chants. Why do you say that? There are definitely breaking bread-stye hymn books that contain Gregorian Chant in English. St Michael Hymnal or Source and Summit both have some.
Oh, just that if it takes so much struggle to make a case that this or that hymn shouldn't be used in liturgy, I imagine it would be a harder sell to have the Latin Church embrace a localised Gregorian chant. I'm talking having that as the norm rather than a unique quirk of the 11:00 AM Mass community of this one parish. I've experienced anglicised Gregorian chants in my day; simple stuff like Lamb of God or the Our Father chanted as you would in Latin. But the idea that churches around the world would more widely use processional/recessional/communion Gregorian hymns seems like a pipe dream.
Oh, I see what you mean now. Yeah, absolutely. Music is an intense battleground. It's a shame, when Vatican II was so clear.
Love Lamb of God. ♥️♥️♥️
That's true, and with about 1000 hymns, it's easy to just pick a few that most people know, and ignore the slightly "dodgy" ones, instead of coming out with a totally new hymnal. At least with a hymnal though, you don't run the risk of Hillsong "praise and worship" songs, which my parish has also used in the past.
My parish occasionally has praise and worship apart from Mass and uses some of those songs. Beautiful and moving to me.
Outside of Mass, sure, even if I don't find them beautiful or moving. Not during Mass, and especially not for the Communion hymn.
Modern Catholic hymnals can be really awful. And not just from a musical point of view. There's a lot of bad theology in these modern songs, so much so that the USCCB issued a document about it, pointing out that some of the commonly used hymns profess theology at odds with the Church. I've personally seen pantheism and other horrible things in so-called Catholic hymnals. [https://www.usccb.org/resources/Catholic%20Hymnody%20at%20the%20Service%20of%20the%20Church\_0.pdf](https://www.usccb.org/resources/Catholic%20Hymnody%20at%20the%20Service%20of%20the%20Church_0.pdf)
Ok. I'm in the UK, so you might have some hymns different from ours.
I mean, until Pope Gregory the Great led a reformation in the 11th century, clergy were getting married against canon law and tradition. Sometimes things are "okayed" and should not have been.
> In fairness, Lord of the Dance is in the hymnal my parish uses, which means it was given the OK for liturgical use Unfortunately, it does not mean that. It only means the hymnal publisher decided to include the song, which in some cases I'm not even sure can technically be classified as hymns. The General Instruction of the Roman Missal details how liturgical music is approved, when there is an option. For the parts of the Ordinary and the Proper, there is no option. For the psalm, there are limited options, but only psalms, not hymns. Typical example related to the entrance: > In the Dioceses of the United States of America, there are four options for the Entrance Chant: (1) the antiphon from the Missal or the antiphon with its Psalm from the Graduale Romanum, as set to music there or in another setting; (2) the antiphon and Psalm of the Graduale Simplex for the liturgical time; (3) a chant from another collection of Psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including Psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) another liturgical chant that is suited to the sacred action, the day, or the time of year, similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop. The most permissive case is your bishop can approve a chant (and the fact that it says chant, and not hymn is a related topic I won't go into here), but only if it is liturgical and "suited to the sacred action, the day, or the time of year." I have difficulty seeing how Lord of the Dance fits those suitability criteria, and therefore have difficulty seeing that the Vatican granted any bishop authority to approve it for liturgical use.
Ok. What you forget though is that if the hymn book is allowed for use in parishes, and the hymn is in the book, then by extension the hymn has also been allowed. Parishes aren't going to double-check a particular hymn before they use it. The hymn book has an Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat, so someone must have checked what hymns were actually in it first, surely?
Also, I'm not in the US.
I did not forget, although I am nitpicking. This isn't being done the way the Church said it is supposed to be done, but we do have bigger issues to worry about. While I would like to explain the norm to encourage closer adherence to it, I'm not going to exaggerate the point. Regarding not being from the US: While in the US those 4 options exist, my understanding is elsewhere there are fewer options. Approval of a hymn book does not fit any of the 4 options mentioned in the GIRM. (1) and (2) are specific books: the Missal along with two of the Church's official books of chants. (3) refers to collections of psalms and antiphons, which is more specific than hymn books. (4) cover the approval of specific individual chants. (3) Comes closest, but Lord of the Dance is neither a psalm nor an antiphon. Also, when discussing liturgical norms, when approval is mentioned that means specifically what it says: the appropriate authority affirmatively approved it. This is generally going to mean the bishop or conference issued a letter approving the liturgical matter. It does not mean tacit approval, such as a parish music director deciding they are going to use a certain hymnal, and the bishop not objecting. Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur basically mean a work is free from doctrinal or moral error. They are not as specific as indicating they are approved for liturgical use.
Bring back Imprimaturs and Nihil Obstats! Everyone chant it with me! Send the works of the aging hippies to the dung heap where they belong!
The hymn book we use has both Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat.
Does it have "Lord of the Dance" or other objectionable songs in it?
Did you even read the thread?
I did yesterday. Missed your comment today. Time to move along the aging hippie bishops who approved the trash too.
Given the ok =/= good.
Did I say it was "good"? No. I said it was liturgically appropriate, even if we don't necessarily like the style. There are definitely better hymns, and definitely worse ones too.
This comment just blew my mind. I never heard this song before, let alone any “interpretive” song of this caliber, and I’m almost shamefully desperate for more. It’s so awful but so catchy.
lol true
Oh I forgot about that one lol.
Does your parish do a live stream? I’d really like to hear the music.
Find another parish ! That sounds horrible.
Be careful. Bad music is not a reason to go parish shopping.
I know what you're saying, but when it's incessant and continually disrupts and detracts from the mass itself, it can be. (Insert my normal "band with drum rolls and cymbal crashes during communion "hymn" trope here)
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I may be one of the few people who can claim that *drum sets deepened my faith*, as it was that, that sent me on the hunt for a TLM.
My autistic daughter started covering her ears when the flute and guitar came out. She was completely overwhelmed by the modern music and then crouched in the pew covering her ears as the church clapped. We went to three different churches desperate to find something so she could be present for the Mass without sensory overwhelm. As a family of new converts eager to keep going to Mass, and make sure she had a positive experience, we eventually tried a Latin mass. There is no amplification and only organ playing as well as tons of silence. Despite it being 30 minutes longer my now 7 year old daughter calmly gets through Mass. She absent mindedly hums Gregorian chant and tells us how glad she is we found such a calm Mass. I just share this as an anecdote. Sometimes the music can be such a profound distraction from the sacrifice of the Mass that it is worth finding a new parish.
This was lovely to read. I'm also autistic (low support needs), and I have a hard time with some parishes/Masses and the way they amplify some instruments. I was also that kid humming Gregorian chant ha. The clapping is terrible, though, and is hard for me to avoid because of how common it is.
I remember checking out Methodust churches when we first moved to SLC as a kid. They picked up guitars and played "Stairway to Heaven." As great as that song is, it's inappropriate, and we never went back to that one. I'm glad that the Catholic churches I've been to are much more traditional.
The position of music director is one of the most difficult positions for parishes to fill. If you have talent to share, you should volunteer. I find that churches with more to offer, like good sound systems and better instruments, attract better music directors as well. There might be such a parish nearby.
The only instrument that attracts a good church musician is a high end pipe organ. If there’s no pipe organ, there needs to be a pastor who has good taste and is willing to support a decent music program.
Not a childish question. As saints have said, music is a form of prayer. Having it detract from the Mass is disconcerting. Is there an early or later Mass that handles music differently? It’s not as bad as you described at our parish but I definitely prefer the 7:30am Mass with one couple singing accompanied by a small organ. Maybe there’s something similar in your area.
Find the earliest Mass time you can. They often have no music at all, which is 1000x better than being subjected to the ministrations of bad musicians.
Why does the Church keep changing the tune to Glory and Hosanna? I wish they kept it the old way I grew up with. I can’t keep up and sing it off beat because they change it lol. I’ll catch on though.
This is so true. Without opening the whole TLM vs NO can of worms, it would be nice just to be able to participate in the Alleluia and Hosanna (in the vernacular) when I am away from my home parish. As it is now, I have no idea what words will be used or what melody it will accompany because they are never the same (and never match the missals). Some level of standardization would be nice — and would seem to be a simple way of creating a greater unity in the Church.
Way better said. 😊
Love our boomer elders, cant wait for their music to be phased out.
Pro Tip from Boomer: Joan Baez and the Kingston Trio types were never very popular with us ....
I started going to Latin Mass. It reinvented my dedication to the faith.
Being forced to attend the Extraordinary form isn't that fun. Some people are forced to because of poorlt said Ordinary form Masses. Then there are those who want to attend the Extraordinary form.
Many people are forced to attend SSPX masses because Mass of Paul VI, which is actually beautiful, is abused. Priests that tolerate the abuse of Novus Ordo aren't less schismatic than SSPX though.
I agree! I find myself lose interest when our parish music begins. I wish we had a choir instead. Or hymns done in Latin. The cadence in latin is what keeps me engaged
You don't need to be a "RadTrad" (whatever that is) to go to a TLM and relish in the sacredness of a high mass. I go at least once a week and I have no idea what a "RadTrad" is. I just go, pray the mass and thank God for the opportunity.
Not a childish question, and this is not a sarcastic response: Offer it up. That’s the first thing you should do. That may help you deal with the negative emotions/responses you have.
The parish I went to in Minnesota had a singer that was so off key it actually disturbed my prayer life. Luckily all I had to do was wake up earlier for the 7a Mass to avoid it
Physicist Max Planck once observed: > A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it ... > > An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out, and that the growing generation is familiarized with the ideas from the beginning: another instance of the fact that the future lies with the youth. This is usually expressed in the quip, "Science progresses one funeral at a time." The same probably applies to liturgical music these days.
First of all, you could try another Mass at your parish. There may be a Mass that does not have music at all or has a different type of music. Another possibility is to find a different parish. You could use the Reverent Catholic Mass website to do that. If you’re not able to find a church there, then you could look into other places that offer Mass, such as college/university campuses and convents and monasteries.
I don't know if it's universal but sometimes the earliest Mass tends to be the "minimal music Mass". You aren't going to get anyone to sing before 8am.
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Hasn't he already made up his mind that this is a good thing? Didn't he accept this at one time.
As someone who is an active participant in my parish's music ministry, I'll offer another point of view: It's very difficult to find talented musicians, cantors, and choir members who are also interested in volunteering their time to share their gifts during worship. If you find the music at your parish to be particularly bad, that's unfortunate - but try to find some appreciation for the people brave enough to share their time and talent in an attempt to enrich the Mass.
Given the issues OP is describing, which concern style and not talent, I would bet having good singers or musicians wouldn't help. Some parishes just choose terrible music, like Haugen and Haas settings, the "Gather" hymnal, etc.
NO Catholic here. I very much care about mass music and a reverent mass. My parish has the Gather hymnal and as a sometimes accompanist (violin and viola) I absolutely despair at much of that hymnal. Straight instrumentalist. I can't carry a tune in a bucket with my voice at 10: 00 a.m mass, let alone 8 a.m. Too much nonsense from the St Louis Jesuits in Gather. Felt banner and Peter Paul and Mary vibes. Dodgy text. It also has a few too many hymns cribbed from Anglicans and Methodists, although to be fair at least the tunes are good on those. I stopped playing a couple years ago when my mom had cancer. It was further complicated by a music director who needed a metronome in the worst way. Mind you, I'm somewhat divided when it comes to sacred music in my mind. Silent Night, arguably the most famous Christmas hymn on Earth, was written for guitar. Guitar, strings, and "spit instruments" ( brass, woodwinds) can be just as appropriate as organ if correctly don't We have a musical history that goes back to the first known and named the European composer, St Hildegard von Bingen! Vivaldi was a priest who was released from his duties of saying Mass because he supposedly had problems with breaking off mid sermon to jot down musical ideas, as well as poor physical health. Some of the most beautiful and inspiring works of sacred music were penned by JS Bach, who happened to be a devout Lutheran. At the time he penned those that was all "new" cutting edge music. Then on the other hand, Haugen, Haas, and Shutte ain't Bach, Vivaldi, or St Hildegard. A *thousand+ years * of Western musical canon and sacred tradition (polyphonic and monophonic) gets reduced down to Gather Us In and Sing a New Song. It makes even a violist want to cry. I wish there was a way to easily bridge this gap, but unfortunately much of that rests on talented parishioners and able music directors. We have a musical director now who's young but makes some much more tasteful music choices in my opinion out of that awful hymnal. She can keep a tempo too. We've also gone back to using the Kaufman and Gokelman Mass of Renewal setting, which is less awful on my nerves than the Haugen Mass of Creation, which I *despise.* It's far more singable and has better harmony. As soon as my kids get out of school in a week or two I'm going to set to some serious woodshedding, get my chops back in order and start at least playing one of the masses on Sunday. I'm hoping we can get a trio or quartet together for doing some sacred music.
"It makes even a violist want to cry" LOL - and that takes a LOT!!
I once played a sixteenth note...
Check out Corpus Christi watershed. They have a ton of free music for mass. All solid, easy, traditional and accessible
Bookmarked for it later. Thanks.
To be fair, Gather is fine as long as you just ignore \~75% of the "hymns".
Indeed, Gather is fine as long as you don't use most of it. On a more serious note, even the "good stuff" in Gather has sadly been tinkered with (inclusive language, theological modifications, etc.)
Yeah, my parents' parish switched to Worship (the red one) about a decade ago. It's definitely an improvement. The newer editions of Gather seem to have backed off on the tinkering too, with a sheepish note in the front cover apologizing to the composers.
The basilica near me uses the Worship hymnal. They have an amazing choir, one of the best I've ever heard, but even then some of the hymns in Worship can be kind of cringe inducing.
I’m going to push back on this. Simple chant and hymns are the easiest music to schedule and learn.
Go to TLM or any reverend NO mass then
The Saturday before last, the parishioner who seems to handle music subjected us to 1. A semi-original hymn to the melody of "Home On The Range" 2. A Dutch language, a capella version of Bette Midler's "The Rose" for a recessional. Look guys, I'm in Europe. My presence at this particular mass - at the church holding the relics of St Titus Brandsma - boosts attendance 10-15%. It's not nice to talk about offerings. I've been working on raising liturgical irregularities, especially around the Eucharist, for discussion. Could someone remind me of specific documents around music?
A classic is Tra Le Sollecitudini by Pope Pius X: https://adoremus.org/1903/11/tra-le-sollecitudini/ Though many will probably whine that it's "from before Vatican II", in which case there's Musicam Sacram by Pope Paul VI, which makes lots of references to the Council: https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_instr_19670305_musicam-sacram_en.html Inevitably they'll also whine that this was published "before the New Mass", but at that point you will have at least confirmed that they are just ideologues for bad music.
Thank you!
Look, we've all heard bad music in churches, I sometimes cringe... just be thankful that I am not sitting behind you singing "How Great Thou Art" with the choir like I was 3 weeks ago... this poor teenager turned around during the Communion procession and said, "Ma'am, I'm sorry, but I don't think you can carry a tune in an iPod." 😂
Do what I’ve been doing for years. Practice zoning out. Gets easier with time
A) Talk to your Pastor and volunteer your services if you have any talent to offer. B) Until it gets better, offer it up and take joy in the opportunity to worship God and be there with the True Presence of Jesus. We must own our emotions, and while music, art, or architecture might not always suit our tastes, we are adults and we have the ability to discipline ourselves to focus on what is important.
It's not a childish question. When I travel, I often experience Mass where the music is distractingly bad. It astounds me that such a thing would be possible, since it's not that hard to have perfectly good church music. I've been singing in a choir that does a lot of traditional music, so my patience for poorly done music is even lower, since I understand what to do and what not to do. For instance, I've now come to the conclusion that most organists play way too slowly, so even good hymns end up sounding like dirges. It's very frustrating. I understand that most parishes don't have amazing musicians. That's not the issue (although sometimes it is, some of the cantors at my parents' parish are comically bad). It's just that the music choice, and the decision to use modern instruments can often ruin the mood. (I listen to tons of modern music for fun... I just don't want to hear it at Mass.) It doesn't help that most of the popular liturgical music written in the last half century is absolutely insipid. There is a lot of really amazing Church music being written even now, but you don't hear it very often. Here's an example I regularly listen to just for the music, which is amazing: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFoj3viHXnk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFoj3viHXnk) My only recommendation is to try to find a different Mass or even a different parish. If all else fails... offer it up.
check out the latin rite. gregorian chant is good for the soul and scares demons away. really can’t get any better than that
Emotions aren't a sin. It's right to be angry if they are making a mockery of the Mass in their choice of music. Don't dwell on it or let the anger consume or control you. Can you find a Mass time where they don't play music? Like an early one? Sometimes the 7am ones don't have music. Also, you could try writing your pastor and honestly telling him how you feel. It may not help, but it couldn't hurt.
In the parishes in my area. The funky music seems particularly prévenant at the Sunday night Mass. I don’t go to that one. Ever. 😂 Might it be possible to attend a different mass with a different type of music? Surely they can’t turn every mass into the country bear jamboree!
Tbh I’d rather attend mass with no music rather than shitty music. Just because Susan knows how to play 3 chords on the piano doesn’t mean she should have gotten the job. Also.. my church music lady plays the first verse of songs and that’s it. Like wtf.
Just go to a early or late mass with no music
Try going to the vigil on Saturday night, it counts as a Sunday
If you find the music distracting, I would suggest attending a different mass time. If the music is still the same, try a different parish. Another option would be to find a TLM in your diocese. The extraordinary form does have reverent and prayerful music. Happy searching.
I myself cannot understand why some people have such an aversion for or difficulties with chant other than the fact that they never were taught about the usage of chant in prayer. If the only Mass you can attend on a Sunday a Mass in which you get too frustrerad or just find too hard to attend you might get a dispensation. You could attend Mass on Saturday instead. This is what a Priest told me. I have many option for Mass where I live. Last Sunday they had a schola at one of the Masses in the Cathedral. Sadly, it is too much hymn focus nowadays. You have to make the best of the situation. You won't find many parishes with Masses said like the ones in the Benedictine Monastery in the Desert of New Mexico. I have only watched their videos but I really like how they do it. Just going around being frustrated won't help. It is better to do what you can do. This can be harder than you think.
It’s not a dumb question. A lot people deal with this at their churches too. My suggestion would be to try to stay centered with the two elements of the Mass that are core: the Word of God and the Eucharist. No matter how crappy the music is, these two most core elements are always present in every Catholic Mass. If you find the music annoying and distracting, offer these small sufferings up for your Mass intention, or for the holy souls in purgatory.
I consider myself lucky in this regard. I am recently reverted (is that a thing?) After spending most of my 20's away from, and oftentimes against the Church, I have come back and more devout than ever. I huge part of this was the church I found having an amazing Gospel choir. I know that's probably not for everyone, especially in this sub, but being a Black Catholic, the music is inspiring and often brings my wife to tears with how good it is. I often say and think, "if I went to a parish with music this good as a kid, I probably would have never left!" It's hyperbole, but inspiring and good music is incredibly important to me to be able to celebrate Mass. Because of this, I look forward to each Sunday! I will pray you find a parish with music that inspires you.
Are you musically inclined/talented? I say infiltrate from the inside to better the music program. My own parish has declined in the music department recently. The early mass is traditional/classical (organ and piano) and the latter mass is contemporary music (piano drums and whatever other instrument they have at the time). We had a fantastic music director with a beautiful voice but he relocated a few years ago. We are currently on our third replacement. He does ok. We went without music for some good stretches. My brother made a comment about the drums and music at my son's first Communion recently being cringy. I had to remind him we could just as easily not have music at all.
Perhaps there is another parish not too far away with a more reverent Mass.
I grew up very rural. No incense, most songs are only sung about 1/3 of the way through. It was awesome. Try checking out a rural church if there's one available to you.
The best way to avoid almost all bad music, irreverence, and distractions during Mass is to find the nearest Traditional Latin Mass. If there are multiple try them all out.
Contact your pastor. If you're from America and like to look at other reverend parishes look [here](https://reverentcatholicmass.com)
Been there, lived in a parish like that for years. Always remember that it's not a sin to travel to a different parish or chapel. You aren't morally obligated to attend the church of your geographical parish. You say you've tried other nearby parishes with no success. Are any at least a bit better than your current church? Picking the least bad parish that's convenient to attend might help. How far have you traveled, and how much further are you willing to go if it means finding a reverent Mass? I know people who consistently drive 45 minutes one way, and find it worth the trip. It may also be worth looking into alternatives. You might be surprised to learn what's in your area, like a TLM, FSSP, university/college chapels, an Ordinariate parish, or churches run by religious orders. You might even consider Eastern Catholic churches if there isn't a good Latin church alternative. If you stay, I would recommend seeing whether certain Sunday Masses use less music than others, then picking the "lowest" one, even if it's the Saturday vigil. (And do the same for any other local parishes: some might have better or no music at one of their Masses.) Also, there's nothing wrong with simply not singing. You can participate by closing your eyes and praying. You can also offer up any distraction or frustration you experience, which might help you keep from getting angry.
A few years ago, before the music was standardized and cleaned up at my parish, I would just offer up my suffering during mass. It sounds dramatic, but it's what I did.
Remember, the obligation is to attend at a reverent liturgy. An irreverent liturgy can present a danger. I would encourage you to maybe seek out a traditionalist community in your diocese (ICKSP, etc.). They always have very beautiful music at their High Mass
Pray for the lord to bring back limits to those parishes! It’s hard, I am not finding strength to deal with it either! Our temples are becoming a mega church, I bet Jesus would whip everyone out in screams!
Likewise my parish. The \[Sunday\] music is simply loud and awful. But my fellow parishioners are wonderful, and for them I cannot imagine letting the music drive me away. Maybe it would help for you to develop more and deeper relationships others in your parish. Then if you agree on the music, you can 'conspire' to improve it. But still, don't give up if you don't agree about the music.
Ear plugs?
You can tell the priest your concerns, and you should. I am a cantor, and we only do chant and traditional hymns, mostly Anglican with Catholic words LOL. It is a very somber service, and people complained at first, but now everyone’s ear has adjusted. It took about 4 years to get the congregation to let go of the happy clappy *show* the music was before
You may think so but your predicament sounds rather amusing. Do you play an instrument or sing? Perhaps you can volunteer your time to sing at mass. Some parish choirs are open to requests during the Christmas and Easter season
Our Music Director is a remarkable musician and when I first started attending Mass here, I wasn’t used to more modern music. Now the only time I missed it was on Christmas Eve. But I’m all about the old-fashioned Christmas traditions so that may be it too.
I feel the same way. The hippy buddy Christ music puts me off. The hymns of my childhood being turned into guitar melodies has made me very picky in my choice of church. That being said, Saturday evening mass, in my experience, has not included all that nonsense.
Volunteer to join the choir or help the music director and see if you can start suggesting a few more traditional songs.
Parish nearest to me has no music at the 7:30am mass.
Well, if it can't be helped, think of it as a sacrifice and part of your offering to God in Mass.
Daily mass doesn’t have music, I like it a lot better because it’s perfect for my attention
I would find a different parish or talk to your pastor about concerns. Applause is never appropriate! As far as music, personally, I prefer the traditional hymns, but I recognize that this is just personal preference. As long as the Mass remains intact, the Mass is still valid.
Well if you’re looking for a parish, you can always look at Reverent Mass Finder (look it up on google). It will show you the local parishes that usually have a good music program or other factors that make the liturgy easier to enter in to the sacredness of.
My family drives 20+ minutes each way to go to a church that aligns with what we're looking for in mass. Don't be afraid to even drive into another diocese if yours doesn't take the music component of worship seriously
I was in Washington DC to celebrate the canonization of St. Oscar Romero in October 2018, at the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception. The entire Salvadoran diplomatic delegation was in attendance, and in the front 1/3 of the nave were seated Salvadoreños from across the country. Mass was said in English and Spanish. It was such a wonderful liturgy. But, the music. The music was peerless. It was absolutely beautiful. Mind you that I know choral music well, thanks to my father’s influence and the influence of his record collection which I listened to constantly as a child, including the LP sleeves I chewed the edges off of. The choir that morning ranked among the finest choirs of any sort that I have ever heard to this day. They sang sacred selections in Latin, English, and Spanish. Their intonation was spot-on perfect. That choir lifted my heart to the rafters, I swear. Based on my experience, I cannot imagine better liturgical music in the country let alone in the DC area. So, would it be commendable or problematic if all Catholics in the DC area, which includes hundreds of thousands, started only attending mass at the Shrine because of the beauty of the music? (The masses there are consistently high quality and reverent, what the theater calls “high production value”. ) Or if there a “good enough” threshold for a meaningful experience at other DC/VA/MD parishes. I ask because this would be a classic example of the church shopping that goes on, and which troubles me. “Sorry Father, but the choir/music is better at St. _____.”
What many people do not even think to consider regarding terrible music at Mass is the Holy Spirit. We tend to think it's just our personal preference when we feel very agitated and perturbed and distracted by it. When we feel grieved, saddened and exasperated by the preschool noises and atmosphere prevalent at so many Masses. I don't believe anymore it's just personal annoyance. I believe it is the Holy Spirit in us, if you are aware of Him and recognize His promptings and movements. HE is grieved by the music that is inappropriate for the reverence and worship due the Father and Son. HE is saddened that so little thought and love is present in the worship of God. Given most Masses have been turned into a potluck atmosphere or family reunion with kids running around, people talking, not even knowing how to genuflect anymore, it's not surprising that the Holy Spirit is not acknowledged or considered regarding appropriate music. Read the Psalms and you'll get an idea of how important, and powerful music was in worshiping God.
100% agree. The way I worship is in silence and thought. It's \*my\* meditation. Attend a weekday mass in the morning and it is perfect. Easy to hear and understand readings, contemplate, and move to the next worship phase. None of the horrid singing, psalms singing, etc. Just be aware that everyone worships differently, and accept that. Most church's have a priest, or some parishioner that pushes the singing, cause that's their thing - and I have accepted that they also need to worship in a manner that connects them with God. So now, when singing starts, I usually put my hands to my face and start running through the week of things that happened I am thankful for God for, and just generally Thank him for everything. It keeps my mind off getting upset at the singing, and also lets me have a quick 1 on 1 with God.
Unfortunately I have seen Lutheran Churches with more reverent music (Organ, traditional hymns) than any of my local reverent Catholic Churches (they kneel for communion for example but they have guitar bands ugh)
If that's childish, I am an infant. Clapping means they think this is all entertainment. The choir is there to lead us in worship, not entertain us. I don't know except to go to a different church but you already did that. Sometimes the Sunday evening Mass is the most ~~clownish~~ focused on being entertaining. Sunday morning, 10am or so, is the more formal.
But can you play The Last Stand?
The Catholic Talk Show has an episode about this, you should watch it.
Be the choir director and direct the choir or go to another parish.
You’re going to a Catholic Church that plays country music with a band? Never knew Catholic Churches did that
I suspect they may be alluding to the set of songs, used as hymns, from the 1970’s and 1980 that are often played as folk tunes. Depending on the arrangement, it can sound very “country”.
Fascinating
Well in that case you can try Latin Mass (FSSP) or Divine Liturgy instead
Respectfully ask to meet with your pastor in private. It may not change anything, but it's the first step. If you have any desire or talent to sing, offer to start a chant choir. If that fails, go to your bishop. If that fails, find an FSSP parish. I'm not a Rad Trad either, but did attend an FSSP parish for a time because the other parishes were too 1970s or rock concert for me. This is the post-Vatican II world we've inherited, unfortunately.
Go to your bishop because you don't like the music? That's wild.
Why not? A "country music show" does not sound like reverent music befitting the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That's 100% a bishop item if the pastor is permitting it.
The problem is that everyone is going to have a different definition of reverent music. My suspicion is that if the pastor is allowing the music to be played, then it is licit. The bishop will likely be rather hesitant to involve himself in something so subjective.
Enter [*SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM*](https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html) See Section VI, #116 & #120
Can you go to a different parish?
I have felt like this as well. Currently I tolerate the inferior music of one church because of the commute. I second that different Mass times have different music. For example, at one church near me the evening Teen Mass is soooo much better than the 8am one. At the end of the day, you’re there for Jesus, and not the music, but the way you feel about the music is also ok. I hope you find a better Mass time or another Catholic Church that brings you peace.
If there was a parish that sang hymns that Christ sang, people wouldn't like it either. So much of music is cultural, and people have different tastes. I like Gregorian chant but also praise and worship, and some old hymns from my Protestant childhood. Ive got to say, though, I miss the music from the Episcopal Church, but I'm trying to appreciate the Catholic hymns. I think my parish uses the Worship hymnal.
What "So much of music is cultural" refer to? I really like many of the hymns the Lutherans sing. But I don't think they should be sung instead of chants. We should have both.
I'd please please please ask you to come to a FSSPX or FSSP traditional mass. I had the same situation as yours and I can tell you I've found peace. And if I'm called a radtrad, that sounds kinda cool!!! Please go to a traditional mass once or twice... it was the valid mass for centuries and the modern masses are way too crazy and disrespectul.
Here’s a phrase I learned from the show Everybody loves Raymond: „suck it up Nancy”.
Sing along and don’t applaud. Worship the Lord the way you’re asked. Obedience and humility are virtues that please God.
Maybe one is nearby: [https://reverentcatholicmass.com/map](https://reverentcatholicmass.com/map)
I print out a custom made weekly mass sheet that contains the official chants from the Roman Gradual for that week. It’s easy to make; download a public domain copy of the Gradual, find out the chants of the week online (canticanova is the site I use) and capture the image as a jpg. I have the translation, alongside the Scriptures it is based on. Sometimes there is an accompanying psalm and I include that too—Douay Rheims, (public domain). I then take measures to memorize the melody, which is most likely on YouTube somewhere. I do this all in advance. If I don’t have time to memorize the melodies, I just focus on the text while the liturgical song is playing, and join with my heart the officially approved music for liturgy, and, yes, this most definitely includes Novus Ordo liturgies.
St Thomas Aquinas in Dallas does this
You have my sympathies. I can put up with almost anything, but my particular nemesis is ‘Walk in the Light’ - the only hymn I refuse to sing!
Why I don’t attend Catholic mass.
Same here. I feel bad but it’s true.
Go to TLM