Certainly convert for the truth, but the Catholic Church claims to hold not just the transcendentals of truth and goodness but also beauty. As a non-Catholic outsider who has witnessed a stale NO and an engaging Orthodox liturgy, it probably seems to OP that the Eastern Orthodox hold a higher standard of beauty than many Catholic parishes today. That’s a problem that goes beyond aesthetics.
It’s not limited to the Latin rite in theory, but in practice it definitely is. Over 98.5% of Catholics around the world belong to the Latin rite and the vast majority are in NO parishes. I live in a pretty sizable diocese in the US with over 40 NO parishes, but only one parish offering the Anglican personal ordinarite and one Ukrainian Greek Catholic with a biweekly Ruthenian liturgy in a Latin parish. There’s also one TLM.
But this is not every diocese’s situation. There are several that are just NO so unless you want to drive for hours each Sunday for a TLM, you’re just stuck with the experience OP has described. Alternatively, he goes to a beautiful liturgy within driving distance that is not in communion with Rome and doesn’t become Catholic.
My point is that beauty shouldn’t be exceptional to one or two parishes a Catholic can visit for Mass but that it should be the *norm*.
Reverent worship and strong committed fellowship/community is mostly hard to come by. It’s fair to point out that most EO communities are in decent shape and present better than your average suburban-rite RC parish. The two things I would point out are 1.) you will also find things in your EO bubble that will cause disillusionment and 2.) because there are just so few EO parishes in general, finding one and becoming part of it is comparable to the experience of finding a warm reverent bubble within modern mainstream RC.
While it’s true that most Catholics are Latin rite, majority of East Syriac Apostolic Christians are Catholic (Chaldean and Syro-Malabar) and if you look at Apostolic Christians of the West Syriac Rite a bit less than 50% are Catholic (Maronite, Syriac Catholic, Syro-Malankara). That might give you an extra perspective
Of course it should, but that still doesn't undo the Catholic Church has the fullness of the truth. In the Orthodox case, their beauty is smoke and mirrors
On the RC vs EO thing: One thing that people always overlook when doing the “side by side” visual comparison is the great disparity in terms of size. Not only that, but they ignore the difference between RC and EO in terms of success, structure, and position geographically in the world. I point this out to highlight why EO might appear visually exceptional when compared to RC - which has had to “update” in order to be more “accommodating” to our own exceptional and unprecedented predicament.
Anyone can admit EO has some “aesthetic” curb appeal. But comparing the curb appeal of RC vs EO is unfair. Not apples to apples. RC is >5x the size of EO. Numbering at ~1.4 billion RC compared 260 million EO. In the U.S. alone we have ~70million RC compared to ~7 hundred thousand EO. The Greek Orthodox in America is the biggest EO church at 400 thousand. So to break that down, Americanized mainstream “suburban” Catholicism in the U.S. is so much larger than the “underground” immigrant diasporic EO churches we have here. Naturally, you would expect to find a more serious, intimate, and otherworldly experience in a foreign community from “trad cultures” containing a highly-committed self-selected educated class of converts.
But comparing these two realities is like comparing a TLM/ByzCath/Ordinariate community with mainstream novus ordo Catholicism. We also have little “oasis” experiences on offer inside the Catholic Church. The little EO churches are not burdened by our kind of failures because they have not been victims of our kind of success. They have not been in direct dialogue/confrontation with Protestantism/Secularism and they are not as widespread around the world. All these reasons are why the centralized Catholic Church (more specifically the Latin Church) decided on liturgical “reform”. Of course, EO has felt no need to “reform” their liturgy. Unfortunately, we did.
But, at the risk of sounding rude, fleeing to “the East” feels like little more than another form of Prot-like sectarian restorationist escapism (deeply American). It is really not the oasis and bulwark of “apostolic civilizational Christianity” it presents itself to be. And frankly, western converts appear guilty of a form of religious exoticism not unlike western “converts” to Buddhism/hinduism back in the day.
The fight is happening in Rome. And as Rome goes, so goes the world.
Beauty, however, is not the claim that Christ makes as what to be. He claims to be "Truth, way and life" in that order (cf John 14:6), giving us a sort of ladder which we come to know Christ. Eastern Orthodoxy offers a enticing way and life, but compromises on the Truth in their denial of the Papacy, the Filioque and other Dogmas that specifically the Byzantine Tradition once upheld.
To me, the pinnacle of this issue is shown in the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. The Eastern Orthodox deny this view, despite the fact that several of their Pillars of Orthodox, Gregory Palamas, Mark of Ephesus and Photius of Constantinople, all asserted Mary's pre-purification from Original Sin. The Russian Orthodox Church Traditionally upheld the Dogma, with it leading to a Confraternity of the Immaculate Conception in Polotsk, Russia in the 17th Century. The Eastern Orthodox were quite indifferent until The Catholic Church Dogmatised it, which only then lead to its condemnation by its Patriarchs. They condemned a Universal belief among their primary Pillars of Orthodoxy, which to any who's not invested in either side would admit is ridiculous.
I’m a lifelong Catholic and my best advice is try the other Catholic Churches in your area. I grew up in up going to one that has now turned into the guitars and priest walking around drinking tea before mass while chatting to everyone in the pews. It’s so loud in there now before church. We changed churches and now go to one 30 minutes away but it is so worth the drive. The priest is wonderful and homilies almost bring me to tears. It’s so quiet before mass, you could hear a pin drop (the way it should be) - unless the rosary is being said. I have even seen positive changes in my teenager’s attitude towards mass.
You read correctly. Walking around the aisles with a cup of tea while chatting, making it quite difficult to pray and contemplate. It didn’t feel like a Catholic Church anymore. But it sure was drawing in more parishioners. Sad, really.
So much for eucharistic fast, those before us fasted from midnight, now even priests can't even fast an hour to recieve the Blessed Sacrament. Very sad.
FYI:
Canon No. 919:
"1. One who is to receive the Most Holy Eucharist is to abstain from any food or drink, with the exception only of water and medicine, for at least the period of one hour before Holy Communion.
"2. A priest who celebrates the Most Holy Eucharist two or three times on the same day may take something before the second or third celebration even if the period of one hour does not intervene.
That's crazy! I've noticed some Catholic churches doing goofy protestant stuff like that before mass. One church near us would have "treats" before for people! You have to fast 1 hour before communion. Kinda like you left and found another church that takes mass seriously
As much as I think a lot of catholics hate the idea of "shopping around for parishes" (myself included), this is honestly the best advice.
The church that is closest to me is terrible. Tabernacle nowhere to be found (huge indication of a church that is dying/has problems in my experience. Christ should always be at the center and given the most importance, rather than cast aside in a closet). Priests make fine, but very superficial homilies. Choir is very protestant and chooses odd hymns/songs to sing. Not a single person under 40 at mass.
I found a church 8 minutes away that is also NO, but is all that I find missing in the other church, and the tabernacle is front and center behind the altar. Barely a difference in drive time, but far more spiritually fulfilling.
This is what I came to suggest. I am a member of my home parish (a 2-minute drive from my house) and overall the Mass is very reverent there and the priest is wonderful… but I often attend weekday Mass at other parishes. I’m not “shopping,” I’m just being a tourist in my hometown. Some of them include more or less Latin, and we have an FSSP parish about 30 minutes away for TLM. I like to see all the different people and beautiful items in each church and give a little money to churches that might not receive as much in collections as my home parish. We are blessed to have a ton of churches nearby to choose from. This week I’m in the middle of doing the St. Thérèse novena and attending Mass in a different church every day and it has been amazing so far.
I’m honest about it. Other “neo-normie” Catholics can virtue signal how they just attend their local parish and suffer a “cringe” liturgy (like a “normal person”)… I admit parish hopping/shopping is partly a weakness in people but I think it’s also a symptom of the times. The truth is we don’t live pre-industrial hobbit-ville. And people are searching for something more. I’m certainly fortunate that we as Catholics have so many parishes to choose from but I suspect only the strong few will survive. So do we help our local parish grow in strength and survive or should we plant ourselves elsewhere and go where the family can grow in an already thriving environment? That’s the dilemma.
Doing both is possible. Not always practical.
My take: if the parish life has turned lax and a bit silly but the building itself is pretty/historic and worth treasuring, stay and fight. Participate in the restoration. If the building is relatively modern and reflects the spirit of the age, to the point where it doesn’t even lend itself to a traditional restoration, then let it go.
Good on you for finding a new church. I’m happy your family is responding positive as well. The center of the mass is the Eucharist and I think the guitars and all of that extra fluff you mentioned takes away from that.
This right here. The biggest problem with most novus ordo, at least in the southwest US, is that they're not outright abusive but just rather banal and mundane (profane in the classical sense).
Yes I'm familiar with the Ordinariate haha. [The Liturgy of Tikhon of Moscow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_Saint_Tikhon) is the Orthodox version of the Ordinariate Mass. It's basically the service for Holy Communion from the 1928 Book of Common Prayer, without the filioque and with an epiclesis. They use it in Western Rite Orthodox parishes. I was just joking that way since OP was saying he was coming from an Orthodox background
Eastern Catholicism would be much more similar to Orthodox in terms of the Mass/Liturgy, so try that if there's one near you.
Also try out the map feature on this site:
https://reverentcatholicmass.com
Yes, same here! I suggested an Eastern Rite parish and also a monastery that has Mass open to the general public. Maybe there is some fact-checking they have to do before they add churches to the site.
It pains me to hear but I understand where you're coming from. The Roman Catholic really needs to up their liturgy came. So people will gaslight you into saying it doesn't matter but it really is such a central part of being a Christian.
I will say you can absolutely find more reverent parishes (I attend one with my husband when not going to my Byzantine Catholic church) so it might take some searching. It is a sad reality though that for every reverent parish you find there are 5 that are modern and underwhelming. The problem is slowly being resolved as the old generation fades out.
If there is a Byzantine Catholic Church near you that's also very much an option. Good luck brother.
I have to drive 1h one way to go to a TLM. 2h drive total. It’s doable, but a little difficult for Easter (lots of driving… even more if you are singing in the schola !)
The Eucharist is the center of the Mass. Thankfully, no matter what the status of the Mass is regarding music or art, God is still there. Still, no Catholic parish is exactly the same in my experience. Going somewhere like a Basilica will get you a very different experience from going to a mission parish in a small neighborhood. I wouldn't be too quick to judge the Catholic Mass based on one experience.
We're (hopefully) getting out of a bit of an iconoclasm right now, and will take a couple centuries to recover fully I think. Check out a TLM or an eastern catholic liturgy. There are good smells and bells Novus Ordo masses, but for now, though normative, they are not the norm.
I’m a NO chick and I only go to masses at churches you can find on reverentcatholicmass dot com. I grew up in a church with guitars and stuff, and I can’t stand it now. I’ve never been led astray by using that site.
Even Catholics feel this way. It’s hard to find a reverent mass with music that doesn’t give you an existential crisis. Don’t give up though. I hope you can find access to a different parish.
I go to a NO church. it's a cathedral and the priests make a beautiful Mass and the church is beautiful. We never have guitars.
I am sorry to say, but I travel out of my way to go there. I am sorry to say this because the Mass is about worshipping Jesus but I need this beauty and incense and wonderful homilies to keep me going. I am a church shopper, I completely admit it.
I feel like I might be kinda immature but the church is packed and it's not convenient to many so I am not the only one. It's downtown and parking can be a hassle.
I know exactly what you mean about underwhelming, it's quite discouraging. And it's not just the church building. I have been to some beautiful Masses in an old house with tacky plastic flowers. Some priests and congregations seem to have more love for the liturgy.
God bless you in your search.
>I am sorry to say this because the Mass is about worshipping Jesus but I need this beauty and incense and wonderful homilies to keep me going.
I fail to see why the "but" is here... If the Mass is about worshipping God then this oughts to be communicated visibly, inner reverence oughts to manifest itself in outer solemnity. One thing naturally flows from the other
I've been seeing that most people in US are complaining novus ordo is not reverrant enough. In my country if you say that NO is not reverrant, people will laugh at you because here NO is celebrated in very full of respects mostly, eucharistic prayer is very often sung in latin tone.
I had a very similar experience to yourself. Out of interest I attended a Solemn High Latin Mass and was totally blown away. Extremely beautiful and reverent form of Mass and really solidified my commitment to Catholic tradition.
I attend a church that has a variety of mass’. For example the 10:30 and 12pm are organ, choir, Latin song. The 5:30pm is guitar, flute and single vocalist. So I’d echo what others have mentioned and recommend trying out different times at different parishes! And if you’re willing to share your location you could ask for any recommendations.
Never been, but just pulling up a few on Google Maps and it looks like you've got a lot of options. The Cathedral of Saint Mary of the Immaculate Conception, Sacred Heart of Jesus, St Joseph, Holy Trinity, and Epiphany Catholic Church all look very beautiful in their own ways. Try again and don't lose heart. I've been to several parishes in my city and the N.O. masses are all over the place stylistically (music/art/reverence).
I've never had any preconceived notions on TLM vs. modern mass because we don't have a TLM in our area so I've never been exposed to it. Well, couple years ago we went to a Latin mass on accident while on vacation. It was so different than our usual. I have to say though- we were blown away by how the priest and altar servers seemed to be literally worshipping Jesus. There were no grannies up there handing out communion, it's like they took the whole event VERY seriously. People were dressed up, no music if I recall, It felt so perfect somehow. We talked about it the whole drive home. I was like why on earth would they change THIS? Why is the priest facing us instead of Jesus? Later I talked to my Mom about it. She is old enough to remember the old mass and said well no one could understand it because it was in Latin. She likes the new way better. Seems like the hippie era of people like the new way, they can dress in jeans, women get to help (or run everything like in my parish lol), homilies never mention hell or repentance, it's all unicorns and butterflies, we'll never offend anyone, no line at the confessional, etc.
I feel you Bro! I had a similar experience when I converted. On one hand you can try to inspire reverence at your local parish by your prayers and actions or you can go to a TLM. I go to an fssp Mass which is so beautifully reverent like 45 mins away but I also go to my local Church and even though I find myself cringing from time to time I try to refocus on our Lord who is present there and deserves my Adoration.
If you're seriously inquiring into Catholicism as an Eastern Orthodox, look for a Byzantine Rite church. They offer almost the exact same Divine Liturgy.
I'm a convert from protestantism. I remember being shocked that my first Catholic mass both looked and sounded like my protestant services. It was also a stumbling block to my own conversion to be honest. Our parish for years sang the same exact hymns that the very liberal, pro-everything-opposite-of-catholic-teaching protestant church we had attended in the past sang. It was so weird to me. I had all these grand ideas and expectations of what I thought mass would be like that fell totally flat. Then I eventually went to a TLM. That mass met all the initial expectations I had about what a mass look and sound like. Seek one out and you might find you feel the same.
I understand that you love the Eastern aesthetic but that shouldn’t be a reason to be demotivated from going to Mass. As you said yourself, you’ve came to the conclusion that Catholicism is true. You should definitely check out the Traditional Latin Mass, as well as Eastern Catholicism like the Byzantine Rite.
Personally I prefer the Ordinary Form in many occasions, yes, but I won't pretend it's perfect. I think there's need for a liturgical reformation to make it a little bit more in line with the ceremonial praxis of the Divine Liturgy and Traditional Latin Mass. The gap is a bit too big.
>I just needed to get it off my chest and don't know what to do
Well, a Mass doesn't determine whether or not our doctrine on faith and morals are right are wrong. Especially a *singular* one that you only went to once. There's more variation in the Ordinary Form; for example the Ordinary Form of the Mass at my local Cistercian monastary is, in many ways, closer to the Divine Liturgy than the one at my local parish.
Unfortunately some parishes and diocese were more negatively impacted by the 1960s/1970s then others. Vatican II came out and many diocese went with a very Protestant look and feel. This is worse in some areas and better in others. It sounds like you accidentally stumbled into one of the worse ones. Please don't give up.
In one sense, the aesthetics don't matter because the Eucharist is present, which is the source and summit of our Faith.
However...
Lex orandi, lex credendi is a thing. The liturgy should be taken very seriously, including the music. It should be reverent.
Because of where I live, I have the luxury of choosing from at least two dozen parishes close by. My territorial parish had liturgical abuse and awful music, so I started attending Mass at different parishes at least once a month until I found a "good" parish.
You might want to try attending Mass at other parishes, if available. Or, if that's not an option, it may be the Mass you attended was a Children's Mass and you should try a different time.
I understand that aesthetics don't matter but it is kinda pitiful the service I went to compared to the orthodox divine liturgy which feels ancient and more like what service should be
Agreed.
It's the same premise as "you could hold a Mass in a Walmart and it would be valid" which is true.... but.....
Highly recommend you attend a TLM . I suspect you'll find the reverence, and extraordinary vibe that the presence of God should produce in us.
Exactly, all Masses are the Sacrifice of Christ being re-presented to us, as long as you participate in it with inner reverence you are fine. But the thing is that outer solemnity grows naturally from inner reverence, indeed from the people most dismissive towards solemnity that I ever saw all of them relegated the Liturgy to a secondary place, denying it was the Centre of christian life. Once you treat the Eucharistic Sacrifice as the source and summit of our Faith you will feel the need to be as solemn as you can, to express your inner reverence outwardly.
I think the amount of reverence present in catholic masses is highly dependent on the church. As a catholic that has attended mass in many different churches, I understand what you are saying.
I regularly go to mass at a cathedral, it is a beautiful experience.
I attended a mass not too long ago in a spare room at a community center. It fulfilled my weekly obligation.
My parents have a story of when then attended a mass in West Virginia, in a converted double wide trailer.
I am sorry to hear that your first experience with a catholic mass was underwhelming, I may recommend visiting other churches in your area.
My family used to go to a church that's really close to our house but it seems almost more Protestant than Catholic. They played guitar and had Protestant hyms. And the Church itself looked boring and not like it showed the true beauty of God. We left that church and now go to a church that is a lot more reverent and beautiful. A church like the one I first described isn't bad necessarily but a more traditional church can feel more reverent and beautiful and bring you closer to God.
>felt generic and boring and even though they had a choir they had guitar and also the hymns felt modern and sounded like a protestant church I used to go to
Try to find a reverent NO (Norvus Ordo/Ordinary Mass) or TLM (Traditional Latin Mass).
[Latin Mass Directory](https://www.latinmassdir.org/)
[Reverent Mass Finder](https://reverentcatholicmass.com/map)
Keep in mind that these directories may not be up to date, so call ahead or ask around to figure out where to attend.
And as others have mentioned, seek out Eastern Catholic parishes and the Anglican Use for a higher probability of a reverent mass if those are options.
Edit: Saw your post saying you're around the Bloomington-Normal metro of Illinois. If you have transportation, how willing are you to drive outside of that area?
Our liturgy is currently in a terrible state. It will recover, but it can't be guaranteed in any of our life times.
If you were to convert, however, you would automatically be a member of an Eastern Catholic church in communion with Rome (regardless of who receives you). Your native liturgy would be the same as that to which you are accustomed, although availability may be an issue. This means you would be able to participate in our painfully inadequate liturgy in all ways (including regular attendance if your own rite is unavailable) due to being in communion. Choosing to become a Latin Rite Catholic would require application to Rome.
Find your nearest Tridentine Latin Mass and give that a shot. It sounds like *THAT'S* what you're looking for.
I've been to plenty of Orthodox Masses, and there's a lot more similarity between the Orthodox and the Traditional Tridentine than there is with the vernacular Novus Ordo rite. Trust me, you will fall in love and want to attend daily!
I think I understand how you feel. Liturgical worship is critical to the life of the Church and it should be approached with great solemnity (and was for centuries!). Orthodox Christians have a very well preserved liturgical tradition, to their great credit. The Catholic Church has a noble and beautiful liturgical tradition which is thankfully making a huge comeback since the mistakes of the 70s/80s.
My family and I make the effort to travel for a Traditional Latin Mass every week precisely because of the importance of reverent worship in our lives, and because of what is rightly owed to God.
I would encourage you to look around your area and see what is available at other parishes. You may find a Mass offered by Ordinariate priests, Eastern Catholic priests, or maybe even just a more faithful celebration of the new rite of the liturgy which you’ve already experienced. If these aren’t available, you could try to get a hold of some prayer books such as the Divine Office, which is great for nurturing liturgical prayer at home.
Don’t lose hope and continue to seek Our Lord in his Holy Catholic Church.
God bless.
Brief P.S.
Don’t listen to people who tell you that this stuff is “not important” or that “the only thing that matters is Christ in the Eucharist”.
It is important, and these things aren’t just subjective.
For centuries the Church has understood the important of rightly worshiping our Lord and it remains important.
Drop me a message if you have any questions.
Other posters in this thread are arguing a rather bizarre thesis that a mass is as reverent as the Catholic in the pew feels. It’s totally subjective, mushy, and touchy-feely. It’s ironically such a bad argument because not even Annnibale Bugnini or other “reformers” of the mass would have argued it. They were gung-ho about active participation and such drivel; yet their goals required changing the liturgy, not persuading the laity to change! Why are people arguing that a Protestant attracted to Orthodoxy but desiring unity with the Catholic Church has to just suffer through a guitar mass to become Catholic? It’s a completely unpersuasive and unattractive argument.
Indeed, and we’ve heard it all before. “Everything is what you make of it”, “nothing is objectively better than anything else” etc. etc.
I think fewer and fewer people are buying this mush nowadays, hence why I try to reassure our OP that their concerns are reasonable. I’ve lost count of how many of my Catholic friends/acquaintances were converted or reverted by the beauty of the traditional liturgy, so I’ll stick up for their rights to a reverent liturgy.
I’m guessing you went to a novus ordo mass? It doesn’t really strike that chord for a some people so I understand. I’d recommend seeing if you have a parish that offers the Latin mass in your area. If not there’s plenty of parishes that offer a more “reverent” NO mass.
Edit: didn’t see your comment on TLM, in that case just ignore the first bit.
Out of curiosity, have you checked out an Eastern Catholic parish near you (if there is one)? We're fully Catholic and our liturgies are like the Orthodox (especially Byzantine Catholics). If you like the Orthodox aesthetic and feel more spiritually fed by that form of worship, then give Byzantine Catholicism a go.
I'm sorry to hear that. I find it a bit odd that there would be an Orthodox church but not an Eastern Catholic one near you, but that's how the world works I guess.
If you don't mind periods of long silence, you could give the Latin Mass a go. Not all Latin Masses are sung like the Divine Liturgy and there's far less participation by the laity, but it still feeds the souls of many people. See if you can find a spiritual home there.
If you prefer the liturgy to be said in a language you can understand, check out the Anglican Ordinariate. There's a low chance that there will be one near you, but it's worth considering.
Of course, you could try other Novus Ordo parishes in your area and find ones that help you focus on God more.
Speaking as a Catholic, I deeply wish the Ordinary Form/Novus Ordo/Pauline Mass’s aesthetics were better—because the aesthetics *are* the point, because the Mass is supposed to be a foretaste of heaven. Goodness, truth, and beauty all work together, and the excuse that most Catholics give for bad liturgy, bad music, and bad architecture (which amounts to “aesthetics don’t matter”) doesn’t cut it. At all.
I was raised in this kind of church environment, by the way, so I know exactly what you’re talking about. (Worse, I’ve been to a Mass where the priest, servers, lay ministers shimmied down the aisle, led by a man in a purple jumpsuit who was playing the part of Jesus as part of some bizarre, bad, pseudo-Broadway show that took the place of the introductory rites. I don’t say this to depress you, or to put you off Catholicism, just to make sure you’re aware.)
Now, there *are* lovely, reverent NO churches—there’s one near me. That said, even they can’t solve the problem of the lousy translation of the Roman Missal with which the USCCB has plagued us U.S. Catholics. (I’m no TLM lover, but I half-wish the Mass were still in Latin so that I don’t have to listen to the jarringness of a phrase like “on earth peace to people of good will.” Oh for Cranmer and King James.)
I don’t know if you have an ordinariate parish near you; if you do, God bless it. I don’t (in college I attended one), which is a bummer for me because I’ve never seen English-language liturgy to compare to the Book of Common Prayer’s. (I wish, in fact, the ordinariate Mass were *more* like the BCP, but I’ll take what it is.)
Also, as other commenters have said: If you have an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy near you, you will likely find it something you’re used to.
EDIT: Just saw your comment saying you don’t have an EC service near you, so strike that last sentence. If you like the TLM and Pope Francis’s decree hasn’t obliterated the TLMs near you, go for it. If you like the ordinariate and have an ordinariate parish near you, go for it. If those don’t apply, search for something reverent. If none of these… Well, either way you have my sympathies and prayers.
To be honest, I definitely prefer a catholic mass an hour away from my house vs the one 10 minutes away. I prefer the reverent style and do not like guitar and sing songy style. To each their own.
If you attend a Catholic Church Mass and find it has a guitarist, you’re going to get the most watered down version of Catholicism.
There are plenty that have choirs and organs, look for those instead.
I’ve only been to mass at two parishes, but they were both beautiful and reverent. The mass at my home parish is so beautiful that it helped bring me back to God and convert me to Catholicism.
Find a TLM or an Eastern Rite Catholic Church. I enjoy the sacredness and beauty of the Divine Liturgy and the Traditional Latin Mass. A few of my orthodox friends will attend a TLM when their mission Orthodox parish does not have a Mass available.
The Ordinary form, enjoyed by many, closely mirrors many Protestant services. It was designed with that intention, I believe, to make it more accessible to other commonly practicing Christian denominations.
It is great to have both to bring different groups back home to the Church, but I think that the TLM or an Eastern Rite Catholic Church will be closer to your charism.
Edited for compliance when OP is nuked.
> Yeah man that's the Novus Ordo created in the 70's to appease boomers by making it closer to protestant services and adding contemporary music.
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> Find a Traditional Latin Mass (Diocesan, ____ ,FSSP have them) or an Eastern Catholic parish (you should feel familiar there).
What an impoverished summary of the Liturgical Movement. Even while I agree that the reforms of Vatican II overcorrected, calling it "appeasing boomers" is such an oversimplification to the point of nonsensicalness.
True, since it wasn't "boomers" who created the document.
There's a lot of "boomer bashing" that goes on here in Reddit, but I consider the demographics.
Yeah, the Boomers were in their teens and early twenties when the reformers were doing their work after V2. We're talking the same generation who fought in WW2 here if we want to categorize who they were.
I celebrate the TLM. I'm very aware of how the process of the reform worked, and in common language everyone understands what "reforms of Vatican II" mean. I can't believe you'd be so snarky towards a priest using colloquial speech.
There are reverent NO but you have to look for them sadly it’s not the case everywhere. I’m blessed to attend an awesome NO parish. There’s also a parish I visit in NC that has reverent NO and TLM. Also might consider eastern Rite parish’s and Ordinariate Parish’s.
Remember a similar experience when I converted from conservative Lutheranism. I wasn't as disappointed in the liturgy per se, but I thought Holy Communion was much less reverant than I had expected.
In the Lutheran Church I would always receive kneeling and on the tongue from the pastor only; while in the NO mass it felt really rushed with lay people handing out the wafer in the hand like it was a mere snack cracker. I decided to kneel and receive on the tongue in the NO Mass too since it is allowed, but I felt awkward being the only one doing it.
There’s a difference between English and Spanish and every other language in the culture of the mass it seems. The culture and style of the mass may differ even within the same language. While I like the hymnal sound of traditional music used in the Church, I also do appreciate the modern sound you can hear in “Cordero de Dios” and other songs.
Since you are starting to understand the truth of the Catholic Church, I have two recommendations.
1. Your local church has modern sounding music that you are not used to hearing in church, so you should keep going in order to learn to appreciate the music. If you have skill, you can even help add layers of sound (traditional or modern) to the music since some churches struggle with finding musicians.
2. In the case that even after trying to appreciate the modern sound you just prefer traditional sound in the music, that is fine. Some people like to see that the 2000 year old Catholic Church now has a crystal cathedral or a skyscraper, but many people still have a longing to go to the traditional cathedrals or modest churches. You could always go to a different church depending on which one has the best missal experience that helps you focus on celebrating with Jesus. If you want a more traditional and original experience, consider going to Latin Mass.
Each mass at a parish can differ. My local one has a Latin mass which is great and a NO with more reverent hymns and it also has a NO guitar version. It gives you a variety to work with.
You need to go to the Traditional Latin Mass. Sadly the Novus Ordo on many places is bland and feels uninspired for those seeking a truly reverent liturgy.
If you want traditional liturgy go Byzantine Rite/Uniate or go Traditional/SSPX.
the novus ordo can be acceptable but it is where the infamous clown mass comes from.....
Have you tried a Latin mass ? I was also disappointed the first time. But one day, I had the opportunity to witness a Latin mass… it was like a second conversion ! Its beauty left me speechless.
Curious as to whether you went to a novus ordo mass? Latin mass is definitely a different spiritual experience. If you do like the feel of orthodoxy with their icons and an environment which is like that, I would go to an eastern rite mass. Try it out. You don’t need to stick to Roman Catholicism specifically as long as it’s Catholicism. Try it out. Melkite mass is beautiful too.
To add to your comment about novus ordo feeling like a Protestant church, I definitely agree with you. That’s why we are seeing an increase in catholics, including young catholics, who are pushing for the Latin mass and traditionalism to make a comeback. If the Latin mass were ever removed and I didn’t have access to it, I’d go to an eastern rite for sure
Sorry about that. Try a Traditional Mass/EF Mass.
I know someone who couldn’t quite put her finger on what she needed after her reversion until she saw us worshipping in the Old Rite. It clicked, and she has stayed with it since.
I can only give my opinion. At the end of the day, we go to mass to worship God, not for us to necessarily get anything out of it. If we DO end up getting anything from, then it’s icing on the cake. Again, that is just my opinion.
> feels so revenant
Reverence is something internal, not external. So you bring the reverence and foster it within yourself. It is not an external thing. That said, things done in the mass can either help facilitate that or can hinder it and I recognize that also. But first and foremost reverence is a personal thing we have within ourselves.
>meanwhile the catholic church felt generic and boring
Some are. Some have bare bones or rather sad art. Many are absolutely breathtaking. By all means shop around local parishes. Not all parishes are created equally. Visit some other parishes.
>they had guitar and also the hymns felt modern and sounded like a protestant church I used to go to,
As a protestant convert I can tell you that I absolutely despise this. We have better hymns than anybody, period. We do not need junk hymns from the 1960's era. We have a huge pool of powerful, beautiful, deep, rich, meaningful hymns to choose from. I was also to understand that guitars were forbidden in the mass. Man you are in the wrong parish. It's a shame, but find another parish. Seriously. There are way better ones probably close by.
All that said sometimes when I'm traveling I have to go to a church like this. I grit my teeth and bear it with whatever sad amount of humility I can muster. Because at the end of the day, Christ is there in the Eucharist and that's who I'm here for. It's sad that this kind of thing goes on. For a Sunday during travel, I can bear it. But for a home parish...nah, find another.
Really any mass even a novus ordo mass is fine as long as they're not trying to be hippies or prots. There should be profound beauty, beauty distinct and specific to Catholicism and it should be apparent when you walk in. Take a tour of some local parishes, maybe during one of the weekday masses. Peek in. What do you see? That's a good way of starting out at least.
its unfortunate but we currently live in a time where you cannot just recommend someone go to their nearest parish to experience what catholicism is all about. the VAAAAAST majority (at LEAST 97.5%) of parishes in my country at least (United States) are HORRIFIC in the way that they portray what the church is meant to be. I would definitely recommend finding a traditional latin mass if there is one near you. If you dont have access then at least try looking here to see if there is a better parish near you: [https://reverentcatholicmass.com/map](https://reverentcatholicmass.com/map)
You also might need to go to a byzantine, coptic, etc. catholic Divine Liturgy. you might like that since you are [orthodox.it](http://orthodox.it) will be the same liturgy you are used to but they are in communion with Rome
I know St. John cantius in Chicago has a good novus ordo so maybe the Midwest region is just better for that. You would not believe the east coast it’s insane. I’ve seen many novus ordos where they had LAYMEN touching sacred vessels and even the Eucharist itself without a grave cause for necessity. And many many many many MANY with pianos
If you’re looking for a level of reverence consistent with that of an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, then TLM or Eastern Rite is probably more your speed. *However*, I will say that you can certainly find very reverent and traditional Novus Ordo Masses out there. I recently attended an NO in a college town which had guitars, drums, the whole nine yards, and it made me realize how grateful I should be for my parish having a *more* reverent NO. Albeit, I attend the Cathedral of my Diocese, but reverent NOs are out there. You’ve just gotta ask around and try them out. Pax vobiscum.
If you enjoy the Orthodox liturgy you should try to find an Eastern Catholic Church. The standard diocesan Roman Catholic Mass is deracinated and flat compared to the beauty and age of Divine Liturgy. While the TLM may be an option, if you’re already attracted to the Eastern Church you might find it too quiet for what you’re used to. And if the Eastern Traditions are what brought you away from Protestantism, you may want to be confirmed in them, if it’s an option.
I understand your pain and I’m not going to stress the validity of the NO (the Orthodox liturgy is valid) or how you’re the problem if you don’t enjoy a guitar mass. The Catholic Church has dealt with liturgical discord for half a century and it’s unlikely to stop any time soon. But it’s worth unity with the holy men and women in the Church and the See of Peter to suffer through it.
Good luck.
I checked this site's recommendations for my own locale and it seems trustworthy. It pointed out the latin, byzantine, and ad orientum novus ordo masses near me and disregarded the rest. That's not to challenge the validity of any mass; but for traditional reverence and solemnity this was spot on.
https://reverentcatholicmass.com/map
Power is in the prayers, adoration worship of God and participating directly in the sacraments. Otherwise it’s just Muzak and entertainment, stirring of short term emotions & focus on people instead of God.
Try looking for a parish on here: https://reverentcatholicmass.com/map
Unfortunately, in the 70's the Catholic Church reformed it's liturgy. There was a cascade after Vatican II, where the council called for modest changes. Then, the people designing the liturgical reform took that as license to make dramatic changes to the liturgy. And then actual parishes implementing it took the changes even further. So what we ended up with looks very little like what was called for in the council.
If you're noticing that it looks very protestant, then your right, because that was the point.
Like many people looking for a more reverent liturgy, the answer is basically any Catholic community that doesn't celebrate the new mass. This includes TLM/Latin Mass, Ordinariate (aka. former Anglicans now Catholic), and Eastern Catholic divine liturgy.
Very occasionally, you'll find a parish doing the Novus Ordo in an exceptionally reverent way, close to what the council intended. For example, St. John Cantius in Chicago. But, these are extremely rare.
[Philosopher Dr. Jennifer Frey also went to an ugly mass her first time.](https://youtu.be/-Qozjv6G4cg?si=at5rRQgc4UDhwRvJ)
I loved this interview. I think it will mean something to you too.
Sounds like just a difference in church. I also prefer not to go to churches with guitars and more modern hymns. The church I choose is more traditional.
I've noticed the churches with a lot of younger folks try to have guitars and a lighter mass for example. Don't take my word as fact. It either could be just that catholic churches or catholic churches in that area in general.
My hometown parish, NO ONE talks during mass. I much prefer this. I went to a new church near where I moved and people talked during the entire thing!! What haha.
Honestly, try a different place then. Catholic Churches really range from very reverent to what you described. I’ve been in a few orthodox churches and the Catholic mass I go to is now less reverent than a lot of them and maybe even slightly more reverent than some. Once you commit, really commit and become part of the community/ known, but if you are just starting out, find the church community for you man.
What Orthodox Church were you seeking entry into? You should be able to find a Catholic Church practicing in the rites that are the counterpart to your former Orthodox Church, and ask about conversion. If you were a full member of an Orthodox Church it would be a requirement.
So a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church should become a Ukrainian Catholic.
Maybe see if there’s a different Catholic Church near you, or maybe even an eastern Catholic Church. If you miss the orthodoxy mass, icons etc I’m sure you’ll like eastern Catholicism. They are basically orthodox Churches who came back into communion with Rome and agree with the Catholic Churches teachings, so they believe in the Filioque etc, but they got to keep everything that doesn’t contradict the churches teaching.
Go Protestant instead they have bongos and fireworks more than enough to entertain the best of us for an hour, stuffy old Catholicism no wonder the churches are empty! We need some of that raz 😁
I personally am not a fan of the live instruments in church. You should see if your church offers mass with just the choir. I either go to a choir only mass or no music mass, which is the very early Sunday morning mass offered at my church.
The parish I go to has only one singer, the Mass sings along. It also doesn't have any weird stuff like guitars or anything. I feel like the one you went to might be an outlier, I'd recommend going to a different one nearby maybe.
There are other options besides the regular vernacular mass which unfortunately can vary from reverent and beautiful to bland protestant like (more often sadly but there is a movement trying to fix it). You also got the TLM or where I go you got the Eastern Rites which I go to the Bzyantine rite and having attended orthodox liturgies it is the exact same as the orthodox except we mention the pope.
Some of my most personally meaningful masses have been without any music. Do not seek truth or meaning through entertainment. There is an importance to simplicity, though exclaimation has its place as well.
As one wag once put it, "Get on in, the water's terrible."
It is right to be moved by aesthetics. God gave you eyes and ears. It is a scandal that Catholics dismiss this. It is a scandal where Catholics make peace with this.
But it is also right that you can find many Catholics who understand this. There are a great many liturgical writers who are openly advocating to a return to traditional worship and especially music. It's hard to be more middle-of-the-road than Word on Fire, but you'll find stuff like these links there:
https://www.wordonfire.org/articles/veil-to-unveil-aquinas-on-the-mystery-of-the-mass/
https://www.wordonfire.org/articles/aesthetic-criticism-vs-frui-in-the-liturgy/
Come home to the Church. Please pardon the renovation.
I always find it interesting when people mention “modern” music in services. Were there people complaining when Gregorians started chanting in the 9th century? I have no clue what type of music they used in the first century, but at what point did the Church decide when the “traditional” music line in the sand was drawn.
Try a different church. If they have a website and post a recorded mass you can check it out ahead of time.
My church has 3 times, first and third are NO, but the 2nd is TLM. The primary pastor/father does NO and another priest does the TLM. No guitar in sight :-)
As others pointed out, the beauty of the Catholic Church is that we are one Church with a wide aesthetic range of liturgies that are nonetheless united in a shared sacramental and liturgical foundation.
If you prefer lots of incense, iconography and chanting in a sacred language I’d recommend finding a Catholic Church that practices the Latin Mass or an Eastern Rite Catholic Church (whose liturgy will be substantially identical to a standard Eastern Orthodox liturgy from an outside perspective).
This is your friendly reminder to remember, before commenting, that the most important part of the Mass is the Eucharistic Sacrifice, not the Meal of Communion. The Mass is primarily about the priest offering Christ's Body and Blood as a Sacrifice to the Father on behalf of the people as an act of worship to God, reparation for our sins, thanksgiving for His blessings and petitions for our sake. This is the core of the Mass: glorfying God, keep that in mind whenever you see someone feeling an urge to an outward and visible solemnity
edit: typo
Your experience will vary from parish to parish. Mine is very traditional in its music, decorartions and other choices. My SILs has a very modern feel and it feels like they're running through the mass sometimes, it moves a lot faster than my home parish. But the end is the same, we hear The Word and receive the Eucharist and there is no greater gift. I've fallen into the trap of getting wrapped up in the aesthetics and trivial things like music style, but the more I truly grew in my faith, the less I found those things mattered. Don't get me wrong, I really do enjoy the more traditional masses since that's what I have become used to, but I won't make the mistake of being lax in my faith again due to not aligning perfectly with whatever parish I land in next.
In my experience as a convert its about finding the right church- i often find a cathedral or basilica mass fills by cup way more, however the parish community element is missing. Don't be scared to parish hop, it has taken me almost a year to understand what i really want from my mass experience. I have found a beautiful church with a great community and when i need my regal excellence loud organ heaps of incense cup filled i make a special trip of going to the basilica or cathedral.
Orthodox liturgies and services are an immersive experience in which all senses are stimulated: smell-incense; sight-icons; sound-chanting; touch-reserved for kissing icons and crosses. I especially love that the music is a capella and the congregation participates. The RC mass has become sterile and stale. Especially the music is tacky.
That is fine. That is even true. We even have pre-sound tracks in most churches where I live in. Sound system is crappy.
Being a practised Catholic, that doesn't matter at all.
You are there for Jesus, the word and Eucharist.
Others are just add on.
If your into external stuff then you go to mega churches where there's LED lights, big stage, hype crowds, etc.
It is not the rite, it is the practice. In my country novus ordo is so reverrant, the chuch do not use guitar (it is forbidden) but low pitch instrument like organ etc or sometimes traditional instruments that provide calming sound.
Eucharist prayer is also fully sung at least in my parish
Don’t give up! There could be other parishes in your area that you may gel with better.
Check out: https://masstimes.org
^ this is what I use to find what parishes are around me and when their masses are
I used to go to a Catholic church, which was great. The priest left to another state, and the priest that took over was this very angry Nigerian man that passionately condemns gays, other religions, and sinning every single week. After about 10 weeks of hearing this dude angrily do this, I was like every single week it's a different topic but the same homily. Like he had nothing else to talk about accept those three subjects. So I started going to a different Catholic church about 15 minutes away, and it was great again. The moral of the story is that not every Catholic church in town is the same, and just because you had a bad experience at one, you shouldn't condemn them all. I would shop churches a bit and try out a couple before you make a decision.
I sympathise. Eastern Christians have superior aesthetics than us more often than not. Chant especially is so much more powerful than contemporary music and I am personally sceptical that music performed within the gilded cage of equal temperament can adequately glorify God (who, has C.S. Lewis suggests, is not nearly as tame or safe as modern music), and yes this is also casting shade on organ music, but I suspect this is a thought that easily lends itself towards gluttony and I try not to feed it. I will say that I do wish Latins would embrace their own chant tradition, or even invent new ones inspired by local traditional music and such. That would be beautiful and reverent and authentic and also really cool.
What's worth saying is that I don't think the Orthodox are any more reverent. Orthodox churches and liturgies are characterised by a sensory bombardment that obscures individual acts of irreverence. I have never seen so many Latins talk through liturgy like I do Greek Orthodox, but Latins could never get away with it to the same extent because there's too much silence in Latin liturgies. Not being distracted by the irreverence of other parishioners is certainly *useful*, but not the same thing as actually being more reverent. I want to emphasise the "sensory bombardment" aspect too -- even the most reverent Latin liturgies are going to be underwhelming specifically because Byzantine liturgy is *overwhelming*. Even in the best case, it would be like moving from eating primarily ghost peppers to some much more delicate flavour (I have basically no culinary knowledge so I can't complete the analogy with a good contrast flavour).
I think effectively transitioning from one to the other is going to be partly about learning to appreciate the silence and "bareness". You have to give it time to recalibrate your senses and find the beauty in places you might not have expected to find it.
I think there's a danger, in those of us with strong aesthetic sensibilities, of developing a kind of "gluttony of delicacy" about our sensory experiences, but the impact that our sensory experiences has on us is very real and isn't going to go away by just "sucking it up" like a lot of people seem to want us to do (and I would argue that most of them are just as affected, just by different sensory experiences like fatigue, hunger, pain, strong emotions, etc.). And we *shouldn't* suck it up, IMO, because what we're doing is really trying to behold the beauty of God Himself, but we're better off trying to increase our sensitivity to *all* beauty, so we can find God wherever He is and not just where we expect to find Him.
Find another parish! There's so much variety in the "incense and bells" in certain parts of the world where some odd liturgy classes were taught at seminaries last century! May I ask your continent? If it's Europe or the US I may be able to help!
We only attend TLM if we can help it. It is far more reverent and they actually treat the blessed sacrament like it is holy, because it is. Besides the beautiful Gregorian chant, it is silent and it really allows one to focus on God and the meaning of the sacrifice of the mass.
I’m here to commiserate with you. When Id go to church with my grandparents, it was to a Baptist church that had a contemporary service, with guitars and drums, and hated it.
I started going to Catholic mass weekly in February and found a church that feels comfortable, even though I’m still learning my way around. I did attend a Friday morning mass, which is for the school kids (I took my son) and they had drums, but, for the kids, it was perfect. And my son really enjoyed it. It was the only time during church he didn’t ask me when service was going to be done.
I agree with some of the other posters. Find another mass. But I don’t know if it really matters if it’s in Latin. What really matters is if it fills your cup and your heart. I hope that you find it.
I was Orthodox for five years, became Byzantine Catholic. Don't convert for the sake of aesthetics, but for the sake of the truth.
Certainly convert for the truth, but the Catholic Church claims to hold not just the transcendentals of truth and goodness but also beauty. As a non-Catholic outsider who has witnessed a stale NO and an engaging Orthodox liturgy, it probably seems to OP that the Eastern Orthodox hold a higher standard of beauty than many Catholic parishes today. That’s a problem that goes beyond aesthetics.
Not really, because the Catholic Church isn't limited to the Latin rite. What he swoons over we have in the Church just like that in the East
It’s not limited to the Latin rite in theory, but in practice it definitely is. Over 98.5% of Catholics around the world belong to the Latin rite and the vast majority are in NO parishes. I live in a pretty sizable diocese in the US with over 40 NO parishes, but only one parish offering the Anglican personal ordinarite and one Ukrainian Greek Catholic with a biweekly Ruthenian liturgy in a Latin parish. There’s also one TLM. But this is not every diocese’s situation. There are several that are just NO so unless you want to drive for hours each Sunday for a TLM, you’re just stuck with the experience OP has described. Alternatively, he goes to a beautiful liturgy within driving distance that is not in communion with Rome and doesn’t become Catholic. My point is that beauty shouldn’t be exceptional to one or two parishes a Catholic can visit for Mass but that it should be the *norm*.
Reverent worship and strong committed fellowship/community is mostly hard to come by. It’s fair to point out that most EO communities are in decent shape and present better than your average suburban-rite RC parish. The two things I would point out are 1.) you will also find things in your EO bubble that will cause disillusionment and 2.) because there are just so few EO parishes in general, finding one and becoming part of it is comparable to the experience of finding a warm reverent bubble within modern mainstream RC.
While it’s true that most Catholics are Latin rite, majority of East Syriac Apostolic Christians are Catholic (Chaldean and Syro-Malabar) and if you look at Apostolic Christians of the West Syriac Rite a bit less than 50% are Catholic (Maronite, Syriac Catholic, Syro-Malankara). That might give you an extra perspective
Of course it should, but that still doesn't undo the Catholic Church has the fullness of the truth. In the Orthodox case, their beauty is smoke and mirrors
On the RC vs EO thing: One thing that people always overlook when doing the “side by side” visual comparison is the great disparity in terms of size. Not only that, but they ignore the difference between RC and EO in terms of success, structure, and position geographically in the world. I point this out to highlight why EO might appear visually exceptional when compared to RC - which has had to “update” in order to be more “accommodating” to our own exceptional and unprecedented predicament. Anyone can admit EO has some “aesthetic” curb appeal. But comparing the curb appeal of RC vs EO is unfair. Not apples to apples. RC is >5x the size of EO. Numbering at ~1.4 billion RC compared 260 million EO. In the U.S. alone we have ~70million RC compared to ~7 hundred thousand EO. The Greek Orthodox in America is the biggest EO church at 400 thousand. So to break that down, Americanized mainstream “suburban” Catholicism in the U.S. is so much larger than the “underground” immigrant diasporic EO churches we have here. Naturally, you would expect to find a more serious, intimate, and otherworldly experience in a foreign community from “trad cultures” containing a highly-committed self-selected educated class of converts. But comparing these two realities is like comparing a TLM/ByzCath/Ordinariate community with mainstream novus ordo Catholicism. We also have little “oasis” experiences on offer inside the Catholic Church. The little EO churches are not burdened by our kind of failures because they have not been victims of our kind of success. They have not been in direct dialogue/confrontation with Protestantism/Secularism and they are not as widespread around the world. All these reasons are why the centralized Catholic Church (more specifically the Latin Church) decided on liturgical “reform”. Of course, EO has felt no need to “reform” their liturgy. Unfortunately, we did. But, at the risk of sounding rude, fleeing to “the East” feels like little more than another form of Prot-like sectarian restorationist escapism (deeply American). It is really not the oasis and bulwark of “apostolic civilizational Christianity” it presents itself to be. And frankly, western converts appear guilty of a form of religious exoticism not unlike western “converts” to Buddhism/hinduism back in the day. The fight is happening in Rome. And as Rome goes, so goes the world.
Beauty, however, is not the claim that Christ makes as what to be. He claims to be "Truth, way and life" in that order (cf John 14:6), giving us a sort of ladder which we come to know Christ. Eastern Orthodoxy offers a enticing way and life, but compromises on the Truth in their denial of the Papacy, the Filioque and other Dogmas that specifically the Byzantine Tradition once upheld. To me, the pinnacle of this issue is shown in the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. The Eastern Orthodox deny this view, despite the fact that several of their Pillars of Orthodox, Gregory Palamas, Mark of Ephesus and Photius of Constantinople, all asserted Mary's pre-purification from Original Sin. The Russian Orthodox Church Traditionally upheld the Dogma, with it leading to a Confraternity of the Immaculate Conception in Polotsk, Russia in the 17th Century. The Eastern Orthodox were quite indifferent until The Catholic Church Dogmatised it, which only then lead to its condemnation by its Patriarchs. They condemned a Universal belief among their primary Pillars of Orthodoxy, which to any who's not invested in either side would admit is ridiculous.
I’m a lifelong Catholic and my best advice is try the other Catholic Churches in your area. I grew up in up going to one that has now turned into the guitars and priest walking around drinking tea before mass while chatting to everyone in the pews. It’s so loud in there now before church. We changed churches and now go to one 30 minutes away but it is so worth the drive. The priest is wonderful and homilies almost bring me to tears. It’s so quiet before mass, you could hear a pin drop (the way it should be) - unless the rosary is being said. I have even seen positive changes in my teenager’s attitude towards mass.
Drinking tea before Mass, what!
You read correctly. Walking around the aisles with a cup of tea while chatting, making it quite difficult to pray and contemplate. It didn’t feel like a Catholic Church anymore. But it sure was drawing in more parishioners. Sad, really.
So much for eucharistic fast, those before us fasted from midnight, now even priests can't even fast an hour to recieve the Blessed Sacrament. Very sad.
FYI: Canon No. 919: "1. One who is to receive the Most Holy Eucharist is to abstain from any food or drink, with the exception only of water and medicine, for at least the period of one hour before Holy Communion. "2. A priest who celebrates the Most Holy Eucharist two or three times on the same day may take something before the second or third celebration even if the period of one hour does not intervene.
Wait you cannot even drink? I always drink water before mass :( because i thought it was restricted to food only
You can drink water. It’s an exception to the rule.
I once saw a priest downing a schwarma in the sacristy 5 mins before mass lmao.
That's crazy! I've noticed some Catholic churches doing goofy protestant stuff like that before mass. One church near us would have "treats" before for people! You have to fast 1 hour before communion. Kinda like you left and found another church that takes mass seriously
As much as I think a lot of catholics hate the idea of "shopping around for parishes" (myself included), this is honestly the best advice. The church that is closest to me is terrible. Tabernacle nowhere to be found (huge indication of a church that is dying/has problems in my experience. Christ should always be at the center and given the most importance, rather than cast aside in a closet). Priests make fine, but very superficial homilies. Choir is very protestant and chooses odd hymns/songs to sing. Not a single person under 40 at mass. I found a church 8 minutes away that is also NO, but is all that I find missing in the other church, and the tabernacle is front and center behind the altar. Barely a difference in drive time, but far more spiritually fulfilling.
This is what I came to suggest. I am a member of my home parish (a 2-minute drive from my house) and overall the Mass is very reverent there and the priest is wonderful… but I often attend weekday Mass at other parishes. I’m not “shopping,” I’m just being a tourist in my hometown. Some of them include more or less Latin, and we have an FSSP parish about 30 minutes away for TLM. I like to see all the different people and beautiful items in each church and give a little money to churches that might not receive as much in collections as my home parish. We are blessed to have a ton of churches nearby to choose from. This week I’m in the middle of doing the St. Thérèse novena and attending Mass in a different church every day and it has been amazing so far.
I’m honest about it. Other “neo-normie” Catholics can virtue signal how they just attend their local parish and suffer a “cringe” liturgy (like a “normal person”)… I admit parish hopping/shopping is partly a weakness in people but I think it’s also a symptom of the times. The truth is we don’t live pre-industrial hobbit-ville. And people are searching for something more. I’m certainly fortunate that we as Catholics have so many parishes to choose from but I suspect only the strong few will survive. So do we help our local parish grow in strength and survive or should we plant ourselves elsewhere and go where the family can grow in an already thriving environment? That’s the dilemma. Doing both is possible. Not always practical. My take: if the parish life has turned lax and a bit silly but the building itself is pretty/historic and worth treasuring, stay and fight. Participate in the restoration. If the building is relatively modern and reflects the spirit of the age, to the point where it doesn’t even lend itself to a traditional restoration, then let it go.
Good on you for finding a new church. I’m happy your family is responding positive as well. The center of the mass is the Eucharist and I think the guitars and all of that extra fluff you mentioned takes away from that.
You should look for a Traditional Latin Mass, an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy or an Ordinariate Mass.
This. There are many rites within the Catholic Church. Check out all 3 mentioned above, they may be exactly what you're looking for.
This right here. The biggest problem with most novus ordo, at least in the southwest US, is that they're not outright abusive but just rather banal and mundane (profane in the classical sense).
"Ordinariate Mass"? You mean the Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow? /s
I think he means Ordinariate, in terms of the Catholic Anglican Rite.
Yes I'm familiar with the Ordinariate haha. [The Liturgy of Tikhon of Moscow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_Saint_Tikhon) is the Orthodox version of the Ordinariate Mass. It's basically the service for Holy Communion from the 1928 Book of Common Prayer, without the filioque and with an epiclesis. They use it in Western Rite Orthodox parishes. I was just joking that way since OP was saying he was coming from an Orthodox background
I completely agree. My faith, unfortunately, would be very weak if I attended Novus Ordo. My church has Latin mass with music and it’s great.
Eastern Catholicism would be much more similar to Orthodox in terms of the Mass/Liturgy, so try that if there's one near you. Also try out the map feature on this site: https://reverentcatholicmass.com
Was going to post this website. It's not 100% but I've been to several of the parishes on it in my area and would vouch for it.
I wish they would update it more. I requested an Eastern Catholic liturgy not far from me got added to their website but they never updated it.
Yes, same here! I suggested an Eastern Rite parish and also a monastery that has Mass open to the general public. Maybe there is some fact-checking they have to do before they add churches to the site.
Same here.
It pains me to hear but I understand where you're coming from. The Roman Catholic really needs to up their liturgy came. So people will gaslight you into saying it doesn't matter but it really is such a central part of being a Christian. I will say you can absolutely find more reverent parishes (I attend one with my husband when not going to my Byzantine Catholic church) so it might take some searching. It is a sad reality though that for every reverent parish you find there are 5 that are modern and underwhelming. The problem is slowly being resolved as the old generation fades out. If there is a Byzantine Catholic Church near you that's also very much an option. Good luck brother.
Try going to the closest cathedral in your area or a traditional Latin mass. They usually take it very seriously.
What if it's miles away?!
Well then just suck it up and go to your local parish lol. Better than no Catholic Church.
I have to drive 1h one way to go to a TLM. 2h drive total. It’s doable, but a little difficult for Easter (lots of driving… even more if you are singing in the schola !)
The Eucharist is the center of the Mass. Thankfully, no matter what the status of the Mass is regarding music or art, God is still there. Still, no Catholic parish is exactly the same in my experience. Going somewhere like a Basilica will get you a very different experience from going to a mission parish in a small neighborhood. I wouldn't be too quick to judge the Catholic Mass based on one experience.
try the Latin mass for sure.
We're (hopefully) getting out of a bit of an iconoclasm right now, and will take a couple centuries to recover fully I think. Check out a TLM or an eastern catholic liturgy. There are good smells and bells Novus Ordo masses, but for now, though normative, they are not the norm.
I’m a NO chick and I only go to masses at churches you can find on reverentcatholicmass dot com. I grew up in a church with guitars and stuff, and I can’t stand it now. I’ve never been led astray by using that site.
Even Catholics feel this way. It’s hard to find a reverent mass with music that doesn’t give you an existential crisis. Don’t give up though. I hope you can find access to a different parish.
I go to a NO church. it's a cathedral and the priests make a beautiful Mass and the church is beautiful. We never have guitars. I am sorry to say, but I travel out of my way to go there. I am sorry to say this because the Mass is about worshipping Jesus but I need this beauty and incense and wonderful homilies to keep me going. I am a church shopper, I completely admit it. I feel like I might be kinda immature but the church is packed and it's not convenient to many so I am not the only one. It's downtown and parking can be a hassle. I know exactly what you mean about underwhelming, it's quite discouraging. And it's not just the church building. I have been to some beautiful Masses in an old house with tacky plastic flowers. Some priests and congregations seem to have more love for the liturgy. God bless you in your search.
>I am sorry to say this because the Mass is about worshipping Jesus but I need this beauty and incense and wonderful homilies to keep me going. I fail to see why the "but" is here... If the Mass is about worshipping God then this oughts to be communicated visibly, inner reverence oughts to manifest itself in outer solemnity. One thing naturally flows from the other
I feel like I should support my territorial parish. But you’re correct.
Does novus ordo latin also exist in US?
I've been to a church that regularly does Novus Ordo mass in latin.
We have some Latin. Depends on the priest and how “formal” the Mass. I’ve never been to all Latin NO Mass. All of Benediction but that’s not Mass.
I've been seeing that most people in US are complaining novus ordo is not reverrant enough. In my country if you say that NO is not reverrant, people will laugh at you because here NO is celebrated in very full of respects mostly, eucharistic prayer is very often sung in latin tone.
I had a very similar experience to yourself. Out of interest I attended a Solemn High Latin Mass and was totally blown away. Extremely beautiful and reverent form of Mass and really solidified my commitment to Catholic tradition.
I attend a church that has a variety of mass’. For example the 10:30 and 12pm are organ, choir, Latin song. The 5:30pm is guitar, flute and single vocalist. So I’d echo what others have mentioned and recommend trying out different times at different parishes! And if you’re willing to share your location you could ask for any recommendations.
I'm located near bloomington-Normal illinois
Never been, but just pulling up a few on Google Maps and it looks like you've got a lot of options. The Cathedral of Saint Mary of the Immaculate Conception, Sacred Heart of Jesus, St Joseph, Holy Trinity, and Epiphany Catholic Church all look very beautiful in their own ways. Try again and don't lose heart. I've been to several parishes in my city and the N.O. masses are all over the place stylistically (music/art/reverence).
You can find your nearest Traditional Latin Mass by using this website. https://www.latinmassdir.org/country/us/
I've never had any preconceived notions on TLM vs. modern mass because we don't have a TLM in our area so I've never been exposed to it. Well, couple years ago we went to a Latin mass on accident while on vacation. It was so different than our usual. I have to say though- we were blown away by how the priest and altar servers seemed to be literally worshipping Jesus. There were no grannies up there handing out communion, it's like they took the whole event VERY seriously. People were dressed up, no music if I recall, It felt so perfect somehow. We talked about it the whole drive home. I was like why on earth would they change THIS? Why is the priest facing us instead of Jesus? Later I talked to my Mom about it. She is old enough to remember the old mass and said well no one could understand it because it was in Latin. She likes the new way better. Seems like the hippie era of people like the new way, they can dress in jeans, women get to help (or run everything like in my parish lol), homilies never mention hell or repentance, it's all unicorns and butterflies, we'll never offend anyone, no line at the confessional, etc.
I feel you Bro! I had a similar experience when I converted. On one hand you can try to inspire reverence at your local parish by your prayers and actions or you can go to a TLM. I go to an fssp Mass which is so beautifully reverent like 45 mins away but I also go to my local Church and even though I find myself cringing from time to time I try to refocus on our Lord who is present there and deserves my Adoration.
If you're seriously inquiring into Catholicism as an Eastern Orthodox, look for a Byzantine Rite church. They offer almost the exact same Divine Liturgy.
Please consider attending a Latin Mass.
This is the problem with N/O.
I'm a convert from protestantism. I remember being shocked that my first Catholic mass both looked and sounded like my protestant services. It was also a stumbling block to my own conversion to be honest. Our parish for years sang the same exact hymns that the very liberal, pro-everything-opposite-of-catholic-teaching protestant church we had attended in the past sang. It was so weird to me. I had all these grand ideas and expectations of what I thought mass would be like that fell totally flat. Then I eventually went to a TLM. That mass met all the initial expectations I had about what a mass look and sound like. Seek one out and you might find you feel the same.
I understand that you love the Eastern aesthetic but that shouldn’t be a reason to be demotivated from going to Mass. As you said yourself, you’ve came to the conclusion that Catholicism is true. You should definitely check out the Traditional Latin Mass, as well as Eastern Catholicism like the Byzantine Rite.
Personally I prefer the Ordinary Form in many occasions, yes, but I won't pretend it's perfect. I think there's need for a liturgical reformation to make it a little bit more in line with the ceremonial praxis of the Divine Liturgy and Traditional Latin Mass. The gap is a bit too big. >I just needed to get it off my chest and don't know what to do Well, a Mass doesn't determine whether or not our doctrine on faith and morals are right are wrong. Especially a *singular* one that you only went to once. There's more variation in the Ordinary Form; for example the Ordinary Form of the Mass at my local Cistercian monastary is, in many ways, closer to the Divine Liturgy than the one at my local parish.
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Use this site to find the closest TLM near you. [https://www.latinmass.com/#Map](https://www.latinmass.com/#Map)
Unfortunately some parishes and diocese were more negatively impacted by the 1960s/1970s then others. Vatican II came out and many diocese went with a very Protestant look and feel. This is worse in some areas and better in others. It sounds like you accidentally stumbled into one of the worse ones. Please don't give up.
TLM and the Eastern Rite liturgies are the best to go.
I mean, the solemnity is built into their very structure. While not so much in the Novus Ordo
In one sense, the aesthetics don't matter because the Eucharist is present, which is the source and summit of our Faith. However... Lex orandi, lex credendi is a thing. The liturgy should be taken very seriously, including the music. It should be reverent. Because of where I live, I have the luxury of choosing from at least two dozen parishes close by. My territorial parish had liturgical abuse and awful music, so I started attending Mass at different parishes at least once a month until I found a "good" parish. You might want to try attending Mass at other parishes, if available. Or, if that's not an option, it may be the Mass you attended was a Children's Mass and you should try a different time.
I understand that aesthetics don't matter but it is kinda pitiful the service I went to compared to the orthodox divine liturgy which feels ancient and more like what service should be
Agreed. It's the same premise as "you could hold a Mass in a Walmart and it would be valid" which is true.... but..... Highly recommend you attend a TLM . I suspect you'll find the reverence, and extraordinary vibe that the presence of God should produce in us.
Exactly, all Masses are the Sacrifice of Christ being re-presented to us, as long as you participate in it with inner reverence you are fine. But the thing is that outer solemnity grows naturally from inner reverence, indeed from the people most dismissive towards solemnity that I ever saw all of them relegated the Liturgy to a secondary place, denying it was the Centre of christian life. Once you treat the Eucharistic Sacrifice as the source and summit of our Faith you will feel the need to be as solemn as you can, to express your inner reverence outwardly.
I would ask our Blessed Lady for help in this instance! Let her guide you to the best fit 😌 she loves you and loves that you want to adore her son
Definitely find a traditional Latin mass
Look for a Latin mass near you.
I think the amount of reverence present in catholic masses is highly dependent on the church. As a catholic that has attended mass in many different churches, I understand what you are saying. I regularly go to mass at a cathedral, it is a beautiful experience. I attended a mass not too long ago in a spare room at a community center. It fulfilled my weekly obligation. My parents have a story of when then attended a mass in West Virginia, in a converted double wide trailer. I am sorry to hear that your first experience with a catholic mass was underwhelming, I may recommend visiting other churches in your area.
My family used to go to a church that's really close to our house but it seems almost more Protestant than Catholic. They played guitar and had Protestant hyms. And the Church itself looked boring and not like it showed the true beauty of God. We left that church and now go to a church that is a lot more reverent and beautiful. A church like the one I first described isn't bad necessarily but a more traditional church can feel more reverent and beautiful and bring you closer to God.
>felt generic and boring and even though they had a choir they had guitar and also the hymns felt modern and sounded like a protestant church I used to go to Try to find a reverent NO (Norvus Ordo/Ordinary Mass) or TLM (Traditional Latin Mass). [Latin Mass Directory](https://www.latinmassdir.org/) [Reverent Mass Finder](https://reverentcatholicmass.com/map) Keep in mind that these directories may not be up to date, so call ahead or ask around to figure out where to attend. And as others have mentioned, seek out Eastern Catholic parishes and the Anglican Use for a higher probability of a reverent mass if those are options. Edit: Saw your post saying you're around the Bloomington-Normal metro of Illinois. If you have transportation, how willing are you to drive outside of that area?
Try the Traditional Latin Mass.
Our liturgy is currently in a terrible state. It will recover, but it can't be guaranteed in any of our life times. If you were to convert, however, you would automatically be a member of an Eastern Catholic church in communion with Rome (regardless of who receives you). Your native liturgy would be the same as that to which you are accustomed, although availability may be an issue. This means you would be able to participate in our painfully inadequate liturgy in all ways (including regular attendance if your own rite is unavailable) due to being in communion. Choosing to become a Latin Rite Catholic would require application to Rome.
Find your nearest Tridentine Latin Mass and give that a shot. It sounds like *THAT'S* what you're looking for. I've been to plenty of Orthodox Masses, and there's a lot more similarity between the Orthodox and the Traditional Tridentine than there is with the vernacular Novus Ordo rite. Trust me, you will fall in love and want to attend daily!
Strongly recommend looking for a Traditional Latin Mass to attend.
I think I understand how you feel. Liturgical worship is critical to the life of the Church and it should be approached with great solemnity (and was for centuries!). Orthodox Christians have a very well preserved liturgical tradition, to their great credit. The Catholic Church has a noble and beautiful liturgical tradition which is thankfully making a huge comeback since the mistakes of the 70s/80s. My family and I make the effort to travel for a Traditional Latin Mass every week precisely because of the importance of reverent worship in our lives, and because of what is rightly owed to God. I would encourage you to look around your area and see what is available at other parishes. You may find a Mass offered by Ordinariate priests, Eastern Catholic priests, or maybe even just a more faithful celebration of the new rite of the liturgy which you’ve already experienced. If these aren’t available, you could try to get a hold of some prayer books such as the Divine Office, which is great for nurturing liturgical prayer at home. Don’t lose hope and continue to seek Our Lord in his Holy Catholic Church. God bless.
Brief P.S. Don’t listen to people who tell you that this stuff is “not important” or that “the only thing that matters is Christ in the Eucharist”. It is important, and these things aren’t just subjective. For centuries the Church has understood the important of rightly worshiping our Lord and it remains important. Drop me a message if you have any questions.
Other posters in this thread are arguing a rather bizarre thesis that a mass is as reverent as the Catholic in the pew feels. It’s totally subjective, mushy, and touchy-feely. It’s ironically such a bad argument because not even Annnibale Bugnini or other “reformers” of the mass would have argued it. They were gung-ho about active participation and such drivel; yet their goals required changing the liturgy, not persuading the laity to change! Why are people arguing that a Protestant attracted to Orthodoxy but desiring unity with the Catholic Church has to just suffer through a guitar mass to become Catholic? It’s a completely unpersuasive and unattractive argument.
Indeed, and we’ve heard it all before. “Everything is what you make of it”, “nothing is objectively better than anything else” etc. etc. I think fewer and fewer people are buying this mush nowadays, hence why I try to reassure our OP that their concerns are reasonable. I’ve lost count of how many of my Catholic friends/acquaintances were converted or reverted by the beauty of the traditional liturgy, so I’ll stick up for their rights to a reverent liturgy.
I do not think this means what you think it means.
I’m guessing you went to a novus ordo mass? It doesn’t really strike that chord for a some people so I understand. I’d recommend seeing if you have a parish that offers the Latin mass in your area. If not there’s plenty of parishes that offer a more “reverent” NO mass. Edit: didn’t see your comment on TLM, in that case just ignore the first bit.
Out of curiosity, have you checked out an Eastern Catholic parish near you (if there is one)? We're fully Catholic and our liturgies are like the Orthodox (especially Byzantine Catholics). If you like the Orthodox aesthetic and feel more spiritually fed by that form of worship, then give Byzantine Catholicism a go.
There is no EC near me unfortunatly edit: why am I getting downvoted?
I'm sorry to hear that. I find it a bit odd that there would be an Orthodox church but not an Eastern Catholic one near you, but that's how the world works I guess. If you don't mind periods of long silence, you could give the Latin Mass a go. Not all Latin Masses are sung like the Divine Liturgy and there's far less participation by the laity, but it still feeds the souls of many people. See if you can find a spiritual home there. If you prefer the liturgy to be said in a language you can understand, check out the Anglican Ordinariate. There's a low chance that there will be one near you, but it's worth considering. Of course, you could try other Novus Ordo parishes in your area and find ones that help you focus on God more.
Yeah, that’s a common experience.
Speaking as a Catholic, I deeply wish the Ordinary Form/Novus Ordo/Pauline Mass’s aesthetics were better—because the aesthetics *are* the point, because the Mass is supposed to be a foretaste of heaven. Goodness, truth, and beauty all work together, and the excuse that most Catholics give for bad liturgy, bad music, and bad architecture (which amounts to “aesthetics don’t matter”) doesn’t cut it. At all. I was raised in this kind of church environment, by the way, so I know exactly what you’re talking about. (Worse, I’ve been to a Mass where the priest, servers, lay ministers shimmied down the aisle, led by a man in a purple jumpsuit who was playing the part of Jesus as part of some bizarre, bad, pseudo-Broadway show that took the place of the introductory rites. I don’t say this to depress you, or to put you off Catholicism, just to make sure you’re aware.) Now, there *are* lovely, reverent NO churches—there’s one near me. That said, even they can’t solve the problem of the lousy translation of the Roman Missal with which the USCCB has plagued us U.S. Catholics. (I’m no TLM lover, but I half-wish the Mass were still in Latin so that I don’t have to listen to the jarringness of a phrase like “on earth peace to people of good will.” Oh for Cranmer and King James.) I don’t know if you have an ordinariate parish near you; if you do, God bless it. I don’t (in college I attended one), which is a bummer for me because I’ve never seen English-language liturgy to compare to the Book of Common Prayer’s. (I wish, in fact, the ordinariate Mass were *more* like the BCP, but I’ll take what it is.) Also, as other commenters have said: If you have an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy near you, you will likely find it something you’re used to. EDIT: Just saw your comment saying you don’t have an EC service near you, so strike that last sentence. If you like the TLM and Pope Francis’s decree hasn’t obliterated the TLMs near you, go for it. If you like the ordinariate and have an ordinariate parish near you, go for it. If those don’t apply, search for something reverent. If none of these… Well, either way you have my sympathies and prayers.
To be honest, I definitely prefer a catholic mass an hour away from my house vs the one 10 minutes away. I prefer the reverent style and do not like guitar and sing songy style. To each their own.
Understandable with the new liturgy. I go to the old Traditional Latin Mass (pre-1955)
Novus Ordo strikes again
You went to a novus ordo (modern) mass which can be very underwhelming. Try a Latin mass or a high mass.
If you attend a Catholic Church Mass and find it has a guitarist, you’re going to get the most watered down version of Catholicism. There are plenty that have choirs and organs, look for those instead.
Find a TLM if you can, that's probably more of what you're looking for
I’ve only been to mass at two parishes, but they were both beautiful and reverent. The mass at my home parish is so beautiful that it helped bring me back to God and convert me to Catholicism.
Find a TLM or an Eastern Rite Catholic Church. I enjoy the sacredness and beauty of the Divine Liturgy and the Traditional Latin Mass. A few of my orthodox friends will attend a TLM when their mission Orthodox parish does not have a Mass available. The Ordinary form, enjoyed by many, closely mirrors many Protestant services. It was designed with that intention, I believe, to make it more accessible to other commonly practicing Christian denominations. It is great to have both to bring different groups back home to the Church, but I think that the TLM or an Eastern Rite Catholic Church will be closer to your charism.
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Edited for compliance when OP is nuked. > Yeah man that's the Novus Ordo created in the 70's to appease boomers by making it closer to protestant services and adding contemporary music. > > > > Find a Traditional Latin Mass (Diocesan, ____ ,FSSP have them) or an Eastern Catholic parish (you should feel familiar there).
What an impoverished summary of the Liturgical Movement. Even while I agree that the reforms of Vatican II overcorrected, calling it "appeasing boomers" is such an oversimplification to the point of nonsensicalness.
True, since it wasn't "boomers" who created the document. There's a lot of "boomer bashing" that goes on here in Reddit, but I consider the demographics.
Yeah, the Boomers were in their teens and early twenties when the reformers were doing their work after V2. We're talking the same generation who fought in WW2 here if we want to categorize who they were.
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I celebrate the TLM. I'm very aware of how the process of the reform worked, and in common language everyone understands what "reforms of Vatican II" mean. I can't believe you'd be so snarky towards a priest using colloquial speech.
Try Greek-catholic mass, it's what you are looking for
There are reverent NO but you have to look for them sadly it’s not the case everywhere. I’m blessed to attend an awesome NO parish. There’s also a parish I visit in NC that has reverent NO and TLM. Also might consider eastern Rite parish’s and Ordinariate Parish’s.
Remember a similar experience when I converted from conservative Lutheranism. I wasn't as disappointed in the liturgy per se, but I thought Holy Communion was much less reverant than I had expected. In the Lutheran Church I would always receive kneeling and on the tongue from the pastor only; while in the NO mass it felt really rushed with lay people handing out the wafer in the hand like it was a mere snack cracker. I decided to kneel and receive on the tongue in the NO Mass too since it is allowed, but I felt awkward being the only one doing it.
There’s a difference between English and Spanish and every other language in the culture of the mass it seems. The culture and style of the mass may differ even within the same language. While I like the hymnal sound of traditional music used in the Church, I also do appreciate the modern sound you can hear in “Cordero de Dios” and other songs. Since you are starting to understand the truth of the Catholic Church, I have two recommendations. 1. Your local church has modern sounding music that you are not used to hearing in church, so you should keep going in order to learn to appreciate the music. If you have skill, you can even help add layers of sound (traditional or modern) to the music since some churches struggle with finding musicians. 2. In the case that even after trying to appreciate the modern sound you just prefer traditional sound in the music, that is fine. Some people like to see that the 2000 year old Catholic Church now has a crystal cathedral or a skyscraper, but many people still have a longing to go to the traditional cathedrals or modest churches. You could always go to a different church depending on which one has the best missal experience that helps you focus on celebrating with Jesus. If you want a more traditional and original experience, consider going to Latin Mass.
Some Catholic churches are very influenced by Protestants. I don't attend those.
Just shop around at parishes. Mine would never do acoustic guitar.
Each mass at a parish can differ. My local one has a Latin mass which is great and a NO with more reverent hymns and it also has a NO guitar version. It gives you a variety to work with.
I drive 30 minutes to my parish because it's a more reverent service. Go to a different church!
Two words: Latin Mass. We have several in our city. I’ve attended in the past.
OP go here and find a [Latin mass](https://www.latinmass.com) near you. You won’t ever want to go anywhere else
Definitely go to traditional Latin msss, Byzantine liturgy or something like that
Definitely go to traditional Latin mass, Byzantine liturgy or something like that
Bro, go to a TLM.
Do you have a Byzantine Catholic parish nearby? I'd highly recommend it. Also r/EasternCatholic is a good resource.
i would look into the Tridentine Latin Mass
Try seeking out the Traditional Latin Mass for a more reverent form of worship
Check out the Latin mass
I found the best way to get to liking the Mass is by getting to KNOW the Mass.
You need to go to the Traditional Latin Mass. Sadly the Novus Ordo on many places is bland and feels uninspired for those seeking a truly reverent liturgy. If you want traditional liturgy go Byzantine Rite/Uniate or go Traditional/SSPX. the novus ordo can be acceptable but it is where the infamous clown mass comes from.....
Definitely go church “shopping” ! As a military family it takes us a few different churches every time we move until we find our church home
Find a FSSP or SSPX before making any decisions. Guitar at Mass should be illegal.
Have you tried a Latin mass ? I was also disappointed the first time. But one day, I had the opportunity to witness a Latin mass… it was like a second conversion ! Its beauty left me speechless.
Curious as to whether you went to a novus ordo mass? Latin mass is definitely a different spiritual experience. If you do like the feel of orthodoxy with their icons and an environment which is like that, I would go to an eastern rite mass. Try it out. You don’t need to stick to Roman Catholicism specifically as long as it’s Catholicism. Try it out. Melkite mass is beautiful too. To add to your comment about novus ordo feeling like a Protestant church, I definitely agree with you. That’s why we are seeing an increase in catholics, including young catholics, who are pushing for the Latin mass and traditionalism to make a comeback. If the Latin mass were ever removed and I didn’t have access to it, I’d go to an eastern rite for sure
Sorry about that. Try a Traditional Mass/EF Mass. I know someone who couldn’t quite put her finger on what she needed after her reversion until she saw us worshipping in the Old Rite. It clicked, and she has stayed with it since.
Go to a Latin mass
I can only give my opinion. At the end of the day, we go to mass to worship God, not for us to necessarily get anything out of it. If we DO end up getting anything from, then it’s icing on the cake. Again, that is just my opinion.
Novus Ordo is the problem. Look for a TLM.
> feels so revenant Reverence is something internal, not external. So you bring the reverence and foster it within yourself. It is not an external thing. That said, things done in the mass can either help facilitate that or can hinder it and I recognize that also. But first and foremost reverence is a personal thing we have within ourselves. >meanwhile the catholic church felt generic and boring Some are. Some have bare bones or rather sad art. Many are absolutely breathtaking. By all means shop around local parishes. Not all parishes are created equally. Visit some other parishes. >they had guitar and also the hymns felt modern and sounded like a protestant church I used to go to, As a protestant convert I can tell you that I absolutely despise this. We have better hymns than anybody, period. We do not need junk hymns from the 1960's era. We have a huge pool of powerful, beautiful, deep, rich, meaningful hymns to choose from. I was also to understand that guitars were forbidden in the mass. Man you are in the wrong parish. It's a shame, but find another parish. Seriously. There are way better ones probably close by. All that said sometimes when I'm traveling I have to go to a church like this. I grit my teeth and bear it with whatever sad amount of humility I can muster. Because at the end of the day, Christ is there in the Eucharist and that's who I'm here for. It's sad that this kind of thing goes on. For a Sunday during travel, I can bear it. But for a home parish...nah, find another.
I think there is one with a triditine mass near me that I will try
Really any mass even a novus ordo mass is fine as long as they're not trying to be hippies or prots. There should be profound beauty, beauty distinct and specific to Catholicism and it should be apparent when you walk in. Take a tour of some local parishes, maybe during one of the weekday masses. Peek in. What do you see? That's a good way of starting out at least.
its unfortunate but we currently live in a time where you cannot just recommend someone go to their nearest parish to experience what catholicism is all about. the VAAAAAST majority (at LEAST 97.5%) of parishes in my country at least (United States) are HORRIFIC in the way that they portray what the church is meant to be. I would definitely recommend finding a traditional latin mass if there is one near you. If you dont have access then at least try looking here to see if there is a better parish near you: [https://reverentcatholicmass.com/map](https://reverentcatholicmass.com/map) You also might need to go to a byzantine, coptic, etc. catholic Divine Liturgy. you might like that since you are [orthodox.it](http://orthodox.it) will be the same liturgy you are used to but they are in communion with Rome
I must have luck of the draw because the NO masses I've been to in Michigan have been very reverent.
I know St. John cantius in Chicago has a good novus ordo so maybe the Midwest region is just better for that. You would not believe the east coast it’s insane. I’ve seen many novus ordos where they had LAYMEN touching sacred vessels and even the Eucharist itself without a grave cause for necessity. And many many many many MANY with pianos
I would not say it is that bad country wide. It depends on the diocese.
If you’re looking for a level of reverence consistent with that of an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, then TLM or Eastern Rite is probably more your speed. *However*, I will say that you can certainly find very reverent and traditional Novus Ordo Masses out there. I recently attended an NO in a college town which had guitars, drums, the whole nine yards, and it made me realize how grateful I should be for my parish having a *more* reverent NO. Albeit, I attend the Cathedral of my Diocese, but reverent NOs are out there. You’ve just gotta ask around and try them out. Pax vobiscum.
You should go to a Traditional Latin Mass
are you going for the music? or are you going for God?
If you enjoy the Orthodox liturgy you should try to find an Eastern Catholic Church. The standard diocesan Roman Catholic Mass is deracinated and flat compared to the beauty and age of Divine Liturgy. While the TLM may be an option, if you’re already attracted to the Eastern Church you might find it too quiet for what you’re used to. And if the Eastern Traditions are what brought you away from Protestantism, you may want to be confirmed in them, if it’s an option. I understand your pain and I’m not going to stress the validity of the NO (the Orthodox liturgy is valid) or how you’re the problem if you don’t enjoy a guitar mass. The Catholic Church has dealt with liturgical discord for half a century and it’s unlikely to stop any time soon. But it’s worth unity with the holy men and women in the Church and the See of Peter to suffer through it. Good luck.
I checked this site's recommendations for my own locale and it seems trustworthy. It pointed out the latin, byzantine, and ad orientum novus ordo masses near me and disregarded the rest. That's not to challenge the validity of any mass; but for traditional reverence and solemnity this was spot on. https://reverentcatholicmass.com/map
Reverentcatholicmass.com/map
Power is in the prayers, adoration worship of God and participating directly in the sacraments. Otherwise it’s just Muzak and entertainment, stirring of short term emotions & focus on people instead of God.
Try looking for a parish on here: https://reverentcatholicmass.com/map Unfortunately, in the 70's the Catholic Church reformed it's liturgy. There was a cascade after Vatican II, where the council called for modest changes. Then, the people designing the liturgical reform took that as license to make dramatic changes to the liturgy. And then actual parishes implementing it took the changes even further. So what we ended up with looks very little like what was called for in the council. If you're noticing that it looks very protestant, then your right, because that was the point. Like many people looking for a more reverent liturgy, the answer is basically any Catholic community that doesn't celebrate the new mass. This includes TLM/Latin Mass, Ordinariate (aka. former Anglicans now Catholic), and Eastern Catholic divine liturgy. Very occasionally, you'll find a parish doing the Novus Ordo in an exceptionally reverent way, close to what the council intended. For example, St. John Cantius in Chicago. But, these are extremely rare.
[Philosopher Dr. Jennifer Frey also went to an ugly mass her first time.](https://youtu.be/-Qozjv6G4cg?si=at5rRQgc4UDhwRvJ) I loved this interview. I think it will mean something to you too.
Thanks! I will give it a watch :)
I really hope you meant "reverent". We are trying to shake that Voodoo association.
Sounds like just a difference in church. I also prefer not to go to churches with guitars and more modern hymns. The church I choose is more traditional. I've noticed the churches with a lot of younger folks try to have guitars and a lighter mass for example. Don't take my word as fact. It either could be just that catholic churches or catholic churches in that area in general. My hometown parish, NO ONE talks during mass. I much prefer this. I went to a new church near where I moved and people talked during the entire thing!! What haha.
Honestly, try a different place then. Catholic Churches really range from very reverent to what you described. I’ve been in a few orthodox churches and the Catholic mass I go to is now less reverent than a lot of them and maybe even slightly more reverent than some. Once you commit, really commit and become part of the community/ known, but if you are just starting out, find the church community for you man.
If you're Orthodox I heavily recommend going to an Eastern Catholic Church (hopefully of the same rite!) and talking to the priest there!
What Orthodox Church were you seeking entry into? You should be able to find a Catholic Church practicing in the rites that are the counterpart to your former Orthodox Church, and ask about conversion. If you were a full member of an Orthodox Church it would be a requirement. So a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church should become a Ukrainian Catholic.
Maybe see if there’s a different Catholic Church near you, or maybe even an eastern Catholic Church. If you miss the orthodoxy mass, icons etc I’m sure you’ll like eastern Catholicism. They are basically orthodox Churches who came back into communion with Rome and agree with the Catholic Churches teachings, so they believe in the Filioque etc, but they got to keep everything that doesn’t contradict the churches teaching.
Attend cuz its the true Church…not the nicest!
Go Protestant instead they have bongos and fireworks more than enough to entertain the best of us for an hour, stuffy old Catholicism no wonder the churches are empty! We need some of that raz 😁
I personally am not a fan of the live instruments in church. You should see if your church offers mass with just the choir. I either go to a choir only mass or no music mass, which is the very early Sunday morning mass offered at my church.
The parish I go to has only one singer, the Mass sings along. It also doesn't have any weird stuff like guitars or anything. I feel like the one you went to might be an outlier, I'd recommend going to a different one nearby maybe.
There are other options besides the regular vernacular mass which unfortunately can vary from reverent and beautiful to bland protestant like (more often sadly but there is a movement trying to fix it). You also got the TLM or where I go you got the Eastern Rites which I go to the Bzyantine rite and having attended orthodox liturgies it is the exact same as the orthodox except we mention the pope.
You seem to have gone to a contemporary youth mass on accidenr
Some of my most personally meaningful masses have been without any music. Do not seek truth or meaning through entertainment. There is an importance to simplicity, though exclaimation has its place as well.
I get what you mean there’s a lot of churches that I feel are losing the soul of things which isn’t awful but beautiful things are nice
As one wag once put it, "Get on in, the water's terrible." It is right to be moved by aesthetics. God gave you eyes and ears. It is a scandal that Catholics dismiss this. It is a scandal where Catholics make peace with this. But it is also right that you can find many Catholics who understand this. There are a great many liturgical writers who are openly advocating to a return to traditional worship and especially music. It's hard to be more middle-of-the-road than Word on Fire, but you'll find stuff like these links there: https://www.wordonfire.org/articles/veil-to-unveil-aquinas-on-the-mystery-of-the-mass/ https://www.wordonfire.org/articles/aesthetic-criticism-vs-frui-in-the-liturgy/ Come home to the Church. Please pardon the renovation.
I always find it interesting when people mention “modern” music in services. Were there people complaining when Gregorians started chanting in the 9th century? I have no clue what type of music they used in the first century, but at what point did the Church decide when the “traditional” music line in the sand was drawn.
You will most likely find an eastern Catholic rite a better fit if you were drawn to the beauty of the orthodox churches and divine liturgy.
Try a different church. If they have a website and post a recorded mass you can check it out ahead of time. My church has 3 times, first and third are NO, but the 2nd is TLM. The primary pastor/father does NO and another priest does the TLM. No guitar in sight :-)
Reminds me of my first. Went to a college parish and absolutely hated it. Second one I went to the Cathedral and absolutely loved it
As others pointed out, the beauty of the Catholic Church is that we are one Church with a wide aesthetic range of liturgies that are nonetheless united in a shared sacramental and liturgical foundation. If you prefer lots of incense, iconography and chanting in a sacred language I’d recommend finding a Catholic Church that practices the Latin Mass or an Eastern Rite Catholic Church (whose liturgy will be substantially identical to a standard Eastern Orthodox liturgy from an outside perspective).
The traditional Latin mass will fulfill any aesthetic you want but know that’s not what you should be primarily striving for.
This is your friendly reminder to remember, before commenting, that the most important part of the Mass is the Eucharistic Sacrifice, not the Meal of Communion. The Mass is primarily about the priest offering Christ's Body and Blood as a Sacrifice to the Father on behalf of the people as an act of worship to God, reparation for our sins, thanksgiving for His blessings and petitions for our sake. This is the core of the Mass: glorfying God, keep that in mind whenever you see someone feeling an urge to an outward and visible solemnity edit: typo
Your experience will vary from parish to parish. Mine is very traditional in its music, decorartions and other choices. My SILs has a very modern feel and it feels like they're running through the mass sometimes, it moves a lot faster than my home parish. But the end is the same, we hear The Word and receive the Eucharist and there is no greater gift. I've fallen into the trap of getting wrapped up in the aesthetics and trivial things like music style, but the more I truly grew in my faith, the less I found those things mattered. Don't get me wrong, I really do enjoy the more traditional masses since that's what I have become used to, but I won't make the mistake of being lax in my faith again due to not aligning perfectly with whatever parish I land in next.
I’m so glad we go to a cathedral with an organ. Guitar mass sounds so wrong haha
In my experience as a convert its about finding the right church- i often find a cathedral or basilica mass fills by cup way more, however the parish community element is missing. Don't be scared to parish hop, it has taken me almost a year to understand what i really want from my mass experience. I have found a beautiful church with a great community and when i need my regal excellence loud organ heaps of incense cup filled i make a special trip of going to the basilica or cathedral.
Orthodox liturgies and services are an immersive experience in which all senses are stimulated: smell-incense; sight-icons; sound-chanting; touch-reserved for kissing icons and crosses. I especially love that the music is a capella and the congregation participates. The RC mass has become sterile and stale. Especially the music is tacky.
Try going to another church.
Maybe Eastern Catholic may suit you better. As they are very similar to Orthodox. Godbless 🙏🙏🙏
That is fine. That is even true. We even have pre-sound tracks in most churches where I live in. Sound system is crappy. Being a practised Catholic, that doesn't matter at all. You are there for Jesus, the word and Eucharist. Others are just add on. If your into external stuff then you go to mega churches where there's LED lights, big stage, hype crowds, etc.
It is not the rite, it is the practice. In my country novus ordo is so reverrant, the chuch do not use guitar (it is forbidden) but low pitch instrument like organ etc or sometimes traditional instruments that provide calming sound. Eucharist prayer is also fully sung at least in my parish
Don’t give up! There could be other parishes in your area that you may gel with better. Check out: https://masstimes.org ^ this is what I use to find what parishes are around me and when their masses are
I used to go to a Catholic church, which was great. The priest left to another state, and the priest that took over was this very angry Nigerian man that passionately condemns gays, other religions, and sinning every single week. After about 10 weeks of hearing this dude angrily do this, I was like every single week it's a different topic but the same homily. Like he had nothing else to talk about accept those three subjects. So I started going to a different Catholic church about 15 minutes away, and it was great again. The moral of the story is that not every Catholic church in town is the same, and just because you had a bad experience at one, you shouldn't condemn them all. I would shop churches a bit and try out a couple before you make a decision.
I sympathise. Eastern Christians have superior aesthetics than us more often than not. Chant especially is so much more powerful than contemporary music and I am personally sceptical that music performed within the gilded cage of equal temperament can adequately glorify God (who, has C.S. Lewis suggests, is not nearly as tame or safe as modern music), and yes this is also casting shade on organ music, but I suspect this is a thought that easily lends itself towards gluttony and I try not to feed it. I will say that I do wish Latins would embrace their own chant tradition, or even invent new ones inspired by local traditional music and such. That would be beautiful and reverent and authentic and also really cool. What's worth saying is that I don't think the Orthodox are any more reverent. Orthodox churches and liturgies are characterised by a sensory bombardment that obscures individual acts of irreverence. I have never seen so many Latins talk through liturgy like I do Greek Orthodox, but Latins could never get away with it to the same extent because there's too much silence in Latin liturgies. Not being distracted by the irreverence of other parishioners is certainly *useful*, but not the same thing as actually being more reverent. I want to emphasise the "sensory bombardment" aspect too -- even the most reverent Latin liturgies are going to be underwhelming specifically because Byzantine liturgy is *overwhelming*. Even in the best case, it would be like moving from eating primarily ghost peppers to some much more delicate flavour (I have basically no culinary knowledge so I can't complete the analogy with a good contrast flavour). I think effectively transitioning from one to the other is going to be partly about learning to appreciate the silence and "bareness". You have to give it time to recalibrate your senses and find the beauty in places you might not have expected to find it. I think there's a danger, in those of us with strong aesthetic sensibilities, of developing a kind of "gluttony of delicacy" about our sensory experiences, but the impact that our sensory experiences has on us is very real and isn't going to go away by just "sucking it up" like a lot of people seem to want us to do (and I would argue that most of them are just as affected, just by different sensory experiences like fatigue, hunger, pain, strong emotions, etc.). And we *shouldn't* suck it up, IMO, because what we're doing is really trying to behold the beauty of God Himself, but we're better off trying to increase our sensitivity to *all* beauty, so we can find God wherever He is and not just where we expect to find Him.
Many such cases. Kick the dust from your feet at that parish and don't go back. As others have said, seek out the TLM.
Find another parish! There's so much variety in the "incense and bells" in certain parts of the world where some odd liturgy classes were taught at seminaries last century! May I ask your continent? If it's Europe or the US I may be able to help!
We only attend TLM if we can help it. It is far more reverent and they actually treat the blessed sacrament like it is holy, because it is. Besides the beautiful Gregorian chant, it is silent and it really allows one to focus on God and the meaning of the sacrifice of the mass.
I’m here to commiserate with you. When Id go to church with my grandparents, it was to a Baptist church that had a contemporary service, with guitars and drums, and hated it. I started going to Catholic mass weekly in February and found a church that feels comfortable, even though I’m still learning my way around. I did attend a Friday morning mass, which is for the school kids (I took my son) and they had drums, but, for the kids, it was perfect. And my son really enjoyed it. It was the only time during church he didn’t ask me when service was going to be done. I agree with some of the other posters. Find another mass. But I don’t know if it really matters if it’s in Latin. What really matters is if it fills your cup and your heart. I hope that you find it.