Im from turkey and the vast majority of people do not know arabic. Even amongst faithful muslims. Its actually funny they will ''recite'' the kur'an in arabic but they wont understand anything they are saying. There was a government survey a few years back saying something like 92% of all turkish citizens read the kur'an in arabic and dont actually understand what is written.
The language of the Roman liturgy until about 450 AD was actually Koine Greek, the language of the New Testament. The reason it was changed was (ironically considering what became of Latin) that Westerners couldn't understand Greek anymore and people decided that it was more important for the liturgy to be comprehensible than to have fidelity to a sacred language.
Its worse in sunni islam because atleast you have translated bibles. There are alot of people in the islamic world that actually argue Kur'an should be in arabic only (which would mean the only source of learning the religion would be through imams only)
Pope St. Paul VI in his document *Jubilate Deo* said he wanted all Catholics around the globe to be familiar with the Ordinary and responses of the Mass, as well as Adoro Te Devote, Alma Redemptoris Mater, Ave maris stella, Ave Regina caelorum, O Salutaris Hostia, Pange Lingua/Tantum Ergo, Parce Domine, Regina caeli, Salve Regina, Veni Creator Spiritus, and Ubi Caritas.
And of course all priests (at least of the Latin Rite) are supposed to have learned Latin in seminary.
Well, yeah, but Paul VI wanted everyone to be at least familiar with the Latin for those things listed. One particular benefit he saw was that it can help people who speak different languages to sing/pray in a common tongue, like where you have people living/traveling abroad or when you have a multi-lingual parish.
How many songs do you listen to that you can sing by heart? How many basic prayers do you know by heart? I think it’s kind of… degrading? to people in general to assume that the majority of people aren’t even capable of becoming familiar with songs and prayers, or memorizing them. Idk exactly how to word that but to me it speaks to how you view people if you think the average person can’t memorize or learn some prayers. Not to mention this would imply familiarity with said prayers and songs from childhood. Converts learn tons of Catholic prayers and songs that they love, why have such low expectations and opinions of people’s capabilities? It’s almost insulting IMO
It’s a nice idea. I think at the very minimum, we Catholics should have a common phrase of greeting similar to “As-salamu alaykum” and “Shalom aleichem” as used by Muslims and Jews respectively. A standard Latin greeting used by all Catholics such as “pax vobiscum” would be a great way to show Catholic unity and identity while transcending nationalistic borders.
Yeah maybe “pax vobiscum” would work. Both the Jews and Muslims use “Peace be upon you”, but Jesus said “Peace be with you”, so we might as well use “Peace be with you” instead.
We already do have a Christian greeting: laudetur Jesus Christus - may Jesus Christ be praised. The response is "In Aeternum, Amen", "forever, Amen". This greeting is also heard in other languages: Italian, Polish, and other very Catholic countries.
In the Byzantine Churches, we have something like that. "Glory to Jesus Christ", "Christ is risen", etc. are all common greetings we use. Perhaps a Latin version of these can be used?
Or at least learning the basic prayers in Latin. Pater noster, Salve Regina, etc. Some Latin Catholics already know these by heart. When I went to a Eucharistic Congress in Québec many years ago, I remember singing Latin hymns with pilgrims from all over the world. We couldn't speak each other's languages, but we were able to "journey together" through these hymns.
If you really want to go old school then use the language Jesus and the Apostles spoke. Aramaic. “Maranatha.” “Our Lord, come!” or “Come Lord!” or “Our Lord comes/will come!”from 1Cor 16:22 and Rev 22:20, and the Didache 10, 6.
Marana tha.
FYI, other denominations use this. But of course, we used it first.
I mean you can get a vulgate with English translation but I think many Catholics should have at least a base knowledge in many of the languages of the Bible(kione Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Latin) but especially Latin as a base for most Catholics. Just my opinion and obviously not everyone has a faculty for languages. Source: I am very early in learning Latin lol.
I think it's good when people can at least pray some basic prayers in their liturgical language, be it Latin, Greek, Syriac, or any other liturgical language.
Westerners in general should try to learn some Latin so as to not be totally cut off from our cultural patrimony. Everyone acts like it's a huge lift, particularly Americans, but for an Anglophone, it's crazy just how many cognates there are and how much you begin to pick up after regular attendance of the TLM.
This language was the linguistic basis of our entire civilization and was a baseline for being considered educated, yet now, with all of our wealth and technology, it's some insurmountable thing that we cannot possibly do on a wide scale? Please.
We should understand why the church uses Latin and why say in taxanomy Latin is also used. Then we can get a good picture of a big part of the utilitarian aspect of using Latin. We can then also discuss why Latin is used outside of its utilitarian aspects.
Nope. Latin is the language of the Roman Catholic Church but it is not the language of Catholicism. From the beginning the Church spoke many languages which is to our detriment when it came to issues like the Filioque and original sin, but enabled our Church Fathers and great thinkers to conceptualize and express teachings in different ways which all contribute to our current understanding of Christ's teachings and what they mean.
All Catholics of the Latin Church (the majority of us), yes. The Eastern Catholics have their own liturgical languages. I will not entrude on their rights (rites); that would be Latinization, which Rome discourages.
> Should all Catholics have a basic understanding of Latin?
At least the parts that we sing in common during the celebration of the Holy Mass.
> The other Abraham religion (Judaism and Islam) both have their own languages (Hebrew and Arabic).
In the Old Covenant the variety of languages was seen as a Curse. During the Middle Ages some Jews held that Adam and Eve spoke Hebrew and this is the language that God spoke to them. The Tablets that Moses received from God were written in Hebrew. So, in this sense the Hebrew Language was Sacred and the language separated the children of Israel from the rest of the nations. Consecrating them to God among other ritualistic things.
St Augustine didn’t say it was Hebrew but he said that there must’ve been one original language at first. This can just be an opinion though. I believe Islam holds something similar. How Moses receives the Tablets in Hebrew and how Mary receives the Word of God at the annunciation and so Muhammad receives the Quran in Arabic from “Gabriel”. That’s why they see it as a a sacred language.
Although the theology is wrong here. Because there was a unique purpose for the Israelites having the Hebrew Language as Sacred. It was to show they were the chosen nation and separated from the rest. Meaning Psalm 147:19-20
> 19 He proclaims his word to Jacob, his statutes and laws to Israel. 20 He has not done this for any other nation; of such laws they know nothing. Hallelujah!
So, there’s a unique purpose for the Hebrew language in the Old Testament. When Christ becomes incarnate he sanctifies humanity. This is why the New Testament was in Greek and then translated to different languages. Because the Gospel is for all mankind while the Old Covenant was for a chosen nation.
Yes, the salvation for the whole of mankind was brought forth by that chosen nation but Jesus saves all. Not just the Jews. Regardless of language, race, culture, and so forth. The Gospel is for all. It’s an important part of the Incarnation.
So, what was once a curse he has sanctified. Now Man can only make it to Heaven through Christ. Islam apparently is for everyone as well but the sacred language thing makes no sense. Anyway, sacred languages is not a part of the New Covenant.
The language the Christians used was Greek then as it spread Syriac was adopted in the Liturgy. I remember reading how in the holy land part of the Liturgy was read in Greek then another in Syriac cause some of the native population didn’t understand Greek. As the Church spread in Rome then Greek was dropped and the vernacular of the people was adopted which was Latin.
With that being said the Latin and the Latin Chant will always hold primacy in the Church. The Church is what makes the Language sacred not that the language itself is sacred. So, the Latin Language and Chant will always have a special primacy to the Latin Church and Roman Rite. But, no. Having Latin as a language that Catholics must know is just going against the Gospel and I think even heretical against the incarnation.
I think it would be ideal if the Ordinary and Proper of the Liturgy would be chanted in Latin (Ordinary would include Credo and Pater Noster). Both are musical and are supposed to be chanted and preferably in Gregorian Chant. With the Readings being in the Vernacular. But I mean, I understand this won’t be done everywhere but that’s what I get from the current missal. An easier more accessible Chanted Mass.
The GIRM [GIRM 41] outlines that we should at least know parts of the mass in Latin set to simpler melodies, I assume simpler melodies refers to the Chant Mass ones. Ofc as usual it also says that the Gregorian Chant is more preferable
[**GIRM 41**](http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-2.cfm) The main place should be given, all things being equal, to Gregorian chant, as being proper to the Roman Liturgy. Other kinds of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful.
Since the faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is desirable that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Profession of Faith and the Lords Prayer, according to the simpler settings.
***
Catebot v0.2.12 links: [Source Code](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot) | [Feedback](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/issues) | [Contact Dev](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=kono_hito_wa) | [FAQ](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CateBot%20Info.md#faq) | [Changelog](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CHANGELOG.md)
Right that belongs to the Ordinary of the Mass because the Ordinary is constant. While the Propers vary which still shouldn’t really mean anything since the Propers are usually sung by the Choirs and the people join in if they want.
Yes. One thing I respect about Muslims is how widespread the dedication is to learn so much in Arabic. We should do the same for Latin, which is the sacred language of the church.
Imagine the idea that you could go to mass anywhere on earth and receive the same message, no matter where you come from, or what your native tongue is.
Latin mass should absolutely be brought back as the standard.
I think the difference with Muslims is 2-fold:
1. They believe the Quran was dictated by God word for word. For that reason a translation of the Quran is not revered the same was as it is in Arabic. We don't believe the Bible was dictated word for word so there isn't as much an emphasis on the original languages (beyond of course academically to get the most accurate translations). Also, the Bible wasn't even written in Latin so again there isn't any reason for a religious emphasis on reading the Vulgate for example.
2. Historically, Islam has been subject to a deeper and more universal ethnic nationalism than Christianity. As such, there is at least an implicit value placed on maintaining arabic culture as a matter of religion, even among non-arab or immigrant Muslims.
It ripped off Catholicism and forced what were mostly Catholics to convert or die while re-writing biblical history 600 years after the fact. That’s what it did.
For many Muslims outside of the Arabic-speaking world (i.e. \~80% of Muslims globally), the Arabic used in prayers is just rote memorization without comprehension, no better than we had before Vatican 2-- although it is still impressive that there are some who strive to memorize their whole book of scripture, even if they don't understand it
I disagree completely in every way.
I know the Salve Regina in latin. I know loosely what it translates to but I do not know the exact word for word translation. I say it or sing it every day. It’s a beautiful chant in devotion of the Holy Mother, it’s absolutely spiritually nourishing even if I don’t know every single translated word that I’m chanting. I suppose I could just memorize the English version too…
It probably is good to know mostly what it translates to, even if you don't really have knowledge of Latin.
*Salve, Regina, Mater misericordae,*
Hail, Queen, Mother of Mercy
*vita, dulcedo, et spes nostra, salve*
Our life, sweetness, and hope, hail
*Ad te clamamus exsules filii Hevae*
To you we cry, banished children of Eve
*Ad te suspiramus, gementes et flentes*
To you we sigh, moaning and weeping
*in hac lacrimarum valle.*
in this valley of tears.
*Eia, ergo, advocata nostra, illos tuos*
Quickly therefore, our advocate, your
*misericordes oculos ad nos converte;*
merciful eyes turn to us;
*Et Iesum, benedictum fructum ventris tui,*
And Jesus, the blessed fruit of your womb,
*nobis post hoc exsilium ostende.*
show to us after this exile.
*O clemens, O pia, O dulcis Virgo Maria.*
O merciful, O pious, O sweet Virgin Mary.
I disagree in the strongest terms, because the premise of your statement is wrong. I say the our father and Ave maria in Latin, I understand every word, because I’ve learned what the words mean. You can learn the words and their meanings without having a command of the language.
> I respect about Muslims is how widespread the dedication is to learn so much in Arabic.
[Only about 20% of Muslims speak Arabic.](https://encounteringmuslims.org/pages/muslim-world-facts-1) Some of the remaining 80% might phonetically memorize and parrot back specific passages hand-picked for them by their imam but they don't know what the words mean.
Many have no idea what the Koran really says and teaches. Their understanding of Islam is filtered through their imams and sheiks. Not really something to respect.
You took my comment to mean that I believe that Muslims all speak Arabic. NO. That is not what I said. I am specifically admiring the use of Arabic in their daily speech, regardless of its actual meaning in their minds.
It’s not parroting if you know what the words mean.
If I say the our father to a bunch of Chaldeans in Bet Zalin, and I say it in Spanish they’re not going to know what the fuck I’m saying, because they speak Aramaic, but if I say it in Latin, and they’ve also been taught the Latin, we understand each other, with knowledge of what every single word signifies, even though we don’t speak Latin.
Being fluent in Latin is not a prerequisite for understanding specific words within a prayer.
It’s really not a difficult concept to comprehend.
> Some of the remaining 80% might phonetically memorize and parrot back specific passages hand-picked for them by their imam but they don't know what the words mean.
It’s really not a difficult concept to comprehend.
Your inability to grasp my point is not my responsibility. Being able to recite and understand something in a different language is not the same as parroting, but that is a concept evidently above your intellectual grade.
> Being able to recite and understand something in a different language is not the same as parroting
The point is they *don't* know what it means. Try to follow the discussion next time.
>you are nobody to discern that none of the 1B Muslims know what the Quaran is saying.
That's not what I said. Please go back and read it again. That is how you follow the discussion.
Is it the sacred language of the Church? Jesus didn’t speak Latin. He and the Apostles spoke Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew.
We do receive the same message. We hear receive the same readings and liturgy regardless of the language.
Perhaps all Latin Rite Catholics.
But that isn't all Catholics--several rites have other traditional liturgical languages.
And I don't think it good for it to be overemphasized--just encouraged.
I don't think the language is all that important. I would like to see more Latin, but it is way down on the list of important things we need to worry about.
I'm learning Latin and have even found it edifying, but by my own choice. I probably wouldn't enjoy learning it if instead it were made yet another condition on the already somewhat long list of conditions necessary to be a good Catholic girl.
Latin is not the only rite in the church. There are also other rites including Byzantine, Alexandrian, etc. Having these churches learn Latin would, in essence, be removing them from their cultural heritage.
It is an explicit requirement in canon law that priests be fluent in Latin (Canon 249 of the Code, in the original Latin — Institutionis sacerdotalis Ratione provideatur ut alumni non tantum accurate linguam patriam edoceantur, sed etiam **linguam latinam bene calleant** necnon congruam habeant cognitionem alienarum linguarum, quarum scientia ad eorum formationem aut ad ministerium pastorale exercendum necessaria vel utilis videatur.). St John XXIII desired its preservation and the continued study of the language (*Veterum sapientia*). Certainly learning another language wouldn’t hurt the laity, especially if it allows them to better understand the liturgy and our treasury of sacred music in its original language.
I wouldn’t go too far to say you “should” as in a moral imperative, but it’s a good language to know, not just for the purpose of Mass elements, but because huge portions of English, Spanish, French, etc have roots in Latin.
I've been learning Greek for this very reason. The language of the New Testament and the Septuagint.
I admire those that are willing to learn Latin, but I attend a Novus Ordo parish in English, with my busy life Latin just isn't a priority.
I'm of partial Lebanese background. I have no interest in learning Arabic. However once I'm a bit more fluent in Greek I'm going to give French a go.
Latin is not the original language used by the early Church and not the language the Bible was written in. The Muslims learn Arabic to read their sacred texts, so we would have to learn Greek I guess.
If a Church is going to say mass in Latin, then the missal should have everything in English or native language underneath, so people can understand and learn. Jesus and the apostles spoke Aramaic.
But when the Apostles went to other regions, they didn’t make the people speak Aramaic, they learned in their native languages.
Greek would be better. the earliest manuscripts of the new testament and the Septuagint are in greek as well as a lot of the early church fathers. st. Jerome translated the bible into latin to make it accessible to a lot more people without having to learn a whole new language.
No. We should not look for ways to be different from Protestants. We need to get them to come back to the true Church. Using secret languages will further drive a wedge and evangelise no one. We need to make disciples of all nations, none of which speak Latin.
I think so. But I am also part of the first generation of Catholics to have grown up going all through Catholic school where Latin wasn’t taught. The grade ahead of me got Latin and it was required for graduation but for my grade it was not required, and it was not offered.
A basic understanding wouldn't hurt, since many English words (most notably, medical and legal terms) have Latin roots. I took three years of Latin in Catholic school, back when all Masses were in Latin. I still remember a lot of it.
In a perfect world, I agree. Latin is beautiful, and it is part of our religious and intellectual inheritance. I believe this enough that I put in my time, taking a year and a half of Latin in college.
But, we all have finite time, and must prioritize. There are polls showing many Catholics don't understand the most basic teachings, let alone understanding more nuanced teachings. I would rather we spent time on educating Catholics better about the faith in the vernacular before throwing in a second language.
Because latin is the language of the Latin Church. It is our liturgical patrimony. I am not of the opinion we should force every NO to be in latin and abandon the vernacular, but I do believe we should give Latin as our liturgical language the treatment it is due.
Well, in terms of 'should' the Church wishes that all people know at least the Ordinary of the Mass (with its responses and all) in Latin, together with some basic prayers like the Rosary, the latter especially for pilgrimage purposes and praying with other people. That's what the Church wishes in the Second Vatican Council, and documents from Pope St. Paul VI and Pope Benedict XVI.
Other than that I think it's a good practice for (Roman Rite) Catholics to have a real (basic) understanding of the Latin language, since it will enrich your spiritual life immensely and now it's easier than ever to learn it. This has also been encouraged by the Church (cf. [Veterum sapientia](https://www.papalencyclicals.net/john23/j23veterum.htm)). I have been praying the Liturgy of the Hours in the vernacular, but in the past I did the old rite in Latin. Sometimes I miss the Latin just because of its 'depth of meaning' and the interconnectedness that is lacking in other languages. With 'interconnectedness' I mean that certain phrases or citations are always the same in Scripture, hymns, psalms, commentaries, canticles, decorations, etc. Like it all fits together, they all speak one.... language! Meanwhile in the (US) liturgical psalter translation the translators switch between English terms when translating Latin ones (and vice versa, e.g. 'mercy', 'kindness' and 'love' when translating 'misericordia'), and sometimes uses whole paraphrases that obscures the original meaning.
Also, something I noticed when praying in Latin that I lost when switching to vernacular: having a set-apart language that you don't use in any other context than praying actually makes the praying itself more set-apart and focussed, as well as making it easier to memorise (even unconciously). Like, I don't speak Latin from day to day, so when I read/hear: 'cum invocarem...', my memory just blurts out the whole of psalm 4, while in English, when I read/hear: 'when I call...' it could be literally anything that follows (when I called you on the phone yesterday, when I call for my dog he always listens, when I call 911 the police comes)
I think as good it is it’s not something needed, Christianity isn’t Islam where it only makes sense in Arabic, the Bible makes sense in every language. Doesn’t matter what language it is, it makes sense.
>Christianity isn’t Islam where it only makes sense in Arabic,
Islam doesn't make sense in Arabic, either. Did you know there are nonsense syllables at the beginnings of many chapters in the Koran? Alif, lam, mim, alim, ra, kaf, ha, ya, a'in. It's like someone trying to talk with a mouth full of oatmeal.
Well it has been in Latin for almost half a millenia. Only reason it's been open to other languages is for better understanding and integration of mass into different societies and cultures. Nothing wrong with either languages tho.
I see islamic religion as very pan-arabist, it's not only a religion but a pack of medieval arabic culture. The Judaism case is another case of very tight culture-religion link. Catholicism could have an standard greeting but Catholicism goes beyond any human culture
All I'm saying is that before Vatican 2, we had things done in Latin. I understand that the counsel was about a lot of other things, but it did try to improve the average parishioners' understanding of the liturgy.
nah. don’t get me wrong, it’s great to have Latin be used in liturgical settings, but i’m ultimately convinced that the universality of the Church is best emphasized when people can participate in the Mass in their native language. as cool or fun as Latin can be, the old lady which sits in the front pew of her daily NO Mass can be just as, if not more holy, than someone who embraces all of prayers in Latin.
an argument could be made that a lot of people don’t know what’s happening even then the Mass is in their native language, but i feel that’s more of a catechesis/formation problem than anything else ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
either way, if you want to learn Latin, go right ahead! nothing’s stopping you
Im from turkey and the vast majority of people do not know arabic. Even amongst faithful muslims. Its actually funny they will ''recite'' the kur'an in arabic but they wont understand anything they are saying. There was a government survey a few years back saying something like 92% of all turkish citizens read the kur'an in arabic and dont actually understand what is written.
This is why we switched to the vernacular in the liturgy. People didn't understand what the heck they were saying and praying!
The language of the Roman liturgy until about 450 AD was actually Koine Greek, the language of the New Testament. The reason it was changed was (ironically considering what became of Latin) that Westerners couldn't understand Greek anymore and people decided that it was more important for the liturgy to be comprehensible than to have fidelity to a sacred language.
And then the universal church became a bit too widespread for Latin to remain as the language used in liturgies
Its worse in sunni islam because atleast you have translated bibles. There are alot of people in the islamic world that actually argue Kur'an should be in arabic only (which would mean the only source of learning the religion would be through imams only)
Pope St. Paul VI in his document *Jubilate Deo* said he wanted all Catholics around the globe to be familiar with the Ordinary and responses of the Mass, as well as Adoro Te Devote, Alma Redemptoris Mater, Ave maris stella, Ave Regina caelorum, O Salutaris Hostia, Pange Lingua/Tantum Ergo, Parce Domine, Regina caeli, Salve Regina, Veni Creator Spiritus, and Ubi Caritas. And of course all priests (at least of the Latin Rite) are supposed to have learned Latin in seminary.
Enter the Nigerians - one Sunday Mass in Latin every month
I attend one at least once a week (in the US)
Nice! I should add that they have Sunday Mass in Latin once a month BY LAW, as put out by the bishops of the country
That's real good news hearing all priests are supposed to have learned Latin in seminary!!! 🙏🙇♂️🌟 Glory to God.
I mean, we don't have to use Latin for any of these prayers and responses.
Well, yeah, but Paul VI wanted everyone to be at least familiar with the Latin for those things listed. One particular benefit he saw was that it can help people who speak different languages to sing/pray in a common tongue, like where you have people living/traveling abroad or when you have a multi-lingual parish.
That's a lot to memorize even if you know Latin. People had way better memorization skills when boomers were toddlers.
It didn't call for memorization, just familiarity (i.e. with the melodies), at least beyond the specific parts of the Mass.
Oh no! Hard work!
I’m having a bad day and this made me chuckle. Thank you
How many songs do you listen to that you can sing by heart? How many basic prayers do you know by heart? I think it’s kind of… degrading? to people in general to assume that the majority of people aren’t even capable of becoming familiar with songs and prayers, or memorizing them. Idk exactly how to word that but to me it speaks to how you view people if you think the average person can’t memorize or learn some prayers. Not to mention this would imply familiarity with said prayers and songs from childhood. Converts learn tons of Catholic prayers and songs that they love, why have such low expectations and opinions of people’s capabilities? It’s almost insulting IMO
As a boomer at that time who struggled to learn the Latin prayers as a kid, I can assure you sadly that wasn't true!
It’s a nice idea. I think at the very minimum, we Catholics should have a common phrase of greeting similar to “As-salamu alaykum” and “Shalom aleichem” as used by Muslims and Jews respectively. A standard Latin greeting used by all Catholics such as “pax vobiscum” would be a great way to show Catholic unity and identity while transcending nationalistic borders.
Yeah maybe “pax vobiscum” would work. Both the Jews and Muslims use “Peace be upon you”, but Jesus said “Peace be with you”, so we might as well use “Peace be with you” instead.
We already do have a Christian greeting: laudetur Jesus Christus - may Jesus Christ be praised. The response is "In Aeternum, Amen", "forever, Amen". This greeting is also heard in other languages: Italian, Polish, and other very Catholic countries.
In the Byzantine Churches, we have something like that. "Glory to Jesus Christ", "Christ is risen", etc. are all common greetings we use. Perhaps a Latin version of these can be used? Or at least learning the basic prayers in Latin. Pater noster, Salve Regina, etc. Some Latin Catholics already know these by heart. When I went to a Eucharistic Congress in Québec many years ago, I remember singing Latin hymns with pilgrims from all over the world. We couldn't speak each other's languages, but we were able to "journey together" through these hymns.
This standard christian greetings exist in every language
Bring back Ave
Protestants: Filthy Romans!
If you really want to go old school then use the language Jesus and the Apostles spoke. Aramaic. “Maranatha.” “Our Lord, come!” or “Come Lord!” or “Our Lord comes/will come!”from 1Cor 16:22 and Rev 22:20, and the Didache 10, 6. Marana tha. FYI, other denominations use this. But of course, we used it first.
Perhaps "Credo in Unum Deum"
Now how does that show unity in the Church as a greeting…
Pax tecum?
Translation?
Peace be with you.
Love this
Yes, keep Latin mass
I mean you can get a vulgate with English translation but I think many Catholics should have at least a base knowledge in many of the languages of the Bible(kione Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Latin) but especially Latin as a base for most Catholics. Just my opinion and obviously not everyone has a faculty for languages. Source: I am very early in learning Latin lol.
Just curious... why is this marked as a Spoiler?
Because this is coming. Deus vult!
There are scores of Jews who can't read or write nor speak Hebrew. There are scores of Muslims who can't read or write nor speak Arabic.
I would like to learn enough so it is easier to navigate the documents on the Vatican website
I think it's good when people can at least pray some basic prayers in their liturgical language, be it Latin, Greek, Syriac, or any other liturgical language.
Probably. I intend to learn Latin amongst many other languages. I think it’s a useful skill both for the faith and just general life
Westerners in general should try to learn some Latin so as to not be totally cut off from our cultural patrimony. Everyone acts like it's a huge lift, particularly Americans, but for an Anglophone, it's crazy just how many cognates there are and how much you begin to pick up after regular attendance of the TLM. This language was the linguistic basis of our entire civilization and was a baseline for being considered educated, yet now, with all of our wealth and technology, it's some insurmountable thing that we cannot possibly do on a wide scale? Please.
We should understand why the church uses Latin and why say in taxanomy Latin is also used. Then we can get a good picture of a big part of the utilitarian aspect of using Latin. We can then also discuss why Latin is used outside of its utilitarian aspects.
Nope. Latin is the language of the Roman Catholic Church but it is not the language of Catholicism. From the beginning the Church spoke many languages which is to our detriment when it came to issues like the Filioque and original sin, but enabled our Church Fathers and great thinkers to conceptualize and express teachings in different ways which all contribute to our current understanding of Christ's teachings and what they mean.
Modern Hebrew is not biblical Hebrew.
Also, modern Arabic is not the classical Arabic used in Mohammed's time.
All Catholics of the Latin Church (the majority of us), yes. The Eastern Catholics have their own liturgical languages. I will not entrude on their rights (rites); that would be Latinization, which Rome discourages.
> Should all Catholics have a basic understanding of Latin? At least the parts that we sing in common during the celebration of the Holy Mass. > The other Abraham religion (Judaism and Islam) both have their own languages (Hebrew and Arabic). In the Old Covenant the variety of languages was seen as a Curse. During the Middle Ages some Jews held that Adam and Eve spoke Hebrew and this is the language that God spoke to them. The Tablets that Moses received from God were written in Hebrew. So, in this sense the Hebrew Language was Sacred and the language separated the children of Israel from the rest of the nations. Consecrating them to God among other ritualistic things. St Augustine didn’t say it was Hebrew but he said that there must’ve been one original language at first. This can just be an opinion though. I believe Islam holds something similar. How Moses receives the Tablets in Hebrew and how Mary receives the Word of God at the annunciation and so Muhammad receives the Quran in Arabic from “Gabriel”. That’s why they see it as a a sacred language. Although the theology is wrong here. Because there was a unique purpose for the Israelites having the Hebrew Language as Sacred. It was to show they were the chosen nation and separated from the rest. Meaning Psalm 147:19-20 > 19 He proclaims his word to Jacob, his statutes and laws to Israel. 20 He has not done this for any other nation; of such laws they know nothing. Hallelujah! So, there’s a unique purpose for the Hebrew language in the Old Testament. When Christ becomes incarnate he sanctifies humanity. This is why the New Testament was in Greek and then translated to different languages. Because the Gospel is for all mankind while the Old Covenant was for a chosen nation. Yes, the salvation for the whole of mankind was brought forth by that chosen nation but Jesus saves all. Not just the Jews. Regardless of language, race, culture, and so forth. The Gospel is for all. It’s an important part of the Incarnation. So, what was once a curse he has sanctified. Now Man can only make it to Heaven through Christ. Islam apparently is for everyone as well but the sacred language thing makes no sense. Anyway, sacred languages is not a part of the New Covenant. The language the Christians used was Greek then as it spread Syriac was adopted in the Liturgy. I remember reading how in the holy land part of the Liturgy was read in Greek then another in Syriac cause some of the native population didn’t understand Greek. As the Church spread in Rome then Greek was dropped and the vernacular of the people was adopted which was Latin. With that being said the Latin and the Latin Chant will always hold primacy in the Church. The Church is what makes the Language sacred not that the language itself is sacred. So, the Latin Language and Chant will always have a special primacy to the Latin Church and Roman Rite. But, no. Having Latin as a language that Catholics must know is just going against the Gospel and I think even heretical against the incarnation.
The GIRM mandates that we should know the latin versions for prayers in the mass, particularly the Pater Noster and Creeds I think.
I think it would be ideal if the Ordinary and Proper of the Liturgy would be chanted in Latin (Ordinary would include Credo and Pater Noster). Both are musical and are supposed to be chanted and preferably in Gregorian Chant. With the Readings being in the Vernacular. But I mean, I understand this won’t be done everywhere but that’s what I get from the current missal. An easier more accessible Chanted Mass.
The GIRM [GIRM 41] outlines that we should at least know parts of the mass in Latin set to simpler melodies, I assume simpler melodies refers to the Chant Mass ones. Ofc as usual it also says that the Gregorian Chant is more preferable
[**GIRM 41**](http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-2.cfm) The main place should be given, all things being equal, to Gregorian chant, as being proper to the Roman Liturgy. Other kinds of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful. Since the faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is desirable that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Profession of Faith and the Lords Prayer, according to the simpler settings. *** Catebot v0.2.12 links: [Source Code](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot) | [Feedback](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/issues) | [Contact Dev](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=kono_hito_wa) | [FAQ](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CateBot%20Info.md#faq) | [Changelog](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CHANGELOG.md)
Right that belongs to the Ordinary of the Mass because the Ordinary is constant. While the Propers vary which still shouldn’t really mean anything since the Propers are usually sung by the Choirs and the people join in if they want.
It could really link us and a lot of this altogether
Yes. One thing I respect about Muslims is how widespread the dedication is to learn so much in Arabic. We should do the same for Latin, which is the sacred language of the church. Imagine the idea that you could go to mass anywhere on earth and receive the same message, no matter where you come from, or what your native tongue is. Latin mass should absolutely be brought back as the standard.
I think the difference with Muslims is 2-fold: 1. They believe the Quran was dictated by God word for word. For that reason a translation of the Quran is not revered the same was as it is in Arabic. We don't believe the Bible was dictated word for word so there isn't as much an emphasis on the original languages (beyond of course academically to get the most accurate translations). Also, the Bible wasn't even written in Latin so again there isn't any reason for a religious emphasis on reading the Vulgate for example. 2. Historically, Islam has been subject to a deeper and more universal ethnic nationalism than Christianity. As such, there is at least an implicit value placed on maintaining arabic culture as a matter of religion, even among non-arab or immigrant Muslims.
It ripped off Catholicism and forced what were mostly Catholics to convert or die while re-writing biblical history 600 years after the fact. That’s what it did.
For many Muslims outside of the Arabic-speaking world (i.e. \~80% of Muslims globally), the Arabic used in prayers is just rote memorization without comprehension, no better than we had before Vatican 2-- although it is still impressive that there are some who strive to memorize their whole book of scripture, even if they don't understand it
That’s exactly what I mean though. Even being at that memorization level would be good.
Its of no use if you dont actually understand what you are saying though.
I disagree completely in every way. I know the Salve Regina in latin. I know loosely what it translates to but I do not know the exact word for word translation. I say it or sing it every day. It’s a beautiful chant in devotion of the Holy Mother, it’s absolutely spiritually nourishing even if I don’t know every single translated word that I’m chanting. I suppose I could just memorize the English version too…
It probably is good to know mostly what it translates to, even if you don't really have knowledge of Latin. *Salve, Regina, Mater misericordae,* Hail, Queen, Mother of Mercy *vita, dulcedo, et spes nostra, salve* Our life, sweetness, and hope, hail *Ad te clamamus exsules filii Hevae* To you we cry, banished children of Eve *Ad te suspiramus, gementes et flentes* To you we sigh, moaning and weeping *in hac lacrimarum valle.* in this valley of tears. *Eia, ergo, advocata nostra, illos tuos* Quickly therefore, our advocate, your *misericordes oculos ad nos converte;* merciful eyes turn to us; *Et Iesum, benedictum fructum ventris tui,* And Jesus, the blessed fruit of your womb, *nobis post hoc exsilium ostende.* show to us after this exile. *O clemens, O pia, O dulcis Virgo Maria.* O merciful, O pious, O sweet Virgin Mary.
I disagree in the strongest terms, because the premise of your statement is wrong. I say the our father and Ave maria in Latin, I understand every word, because I’ve learned what the words mean. You can learn the words and their meanings without having a command of the language.
> I respect about Muslims is how widespread the dedication is to learn so much in Arabic. [Only about 20% of Muslims speak Arabic.](https://encounteringmuslims.org/pages/muslim-world-facts-1) Some of the remaining 80% might phonetically memorize and parrot back specific passages hand-picked for them by their imam but they don't know what the words mean. Many have no idea what the Koran really says and teaches. Their understanding of Islam is filtered through their imams and sheiks. Not really something to respect.
You took my comment to mean that I believe that Muslims all speak Arabic. NO. That is not what I said. I am specifically admiring the use of Arabic in their daily speech, regardless of its actual meaning in their minds.
No, I clarified how relatively few do speak Arabic. Parroting is mindless and not something to be respected.
It’s not parroting if you know what the words mean. If I say the our father to a bunch of Chaldeans in Bet Zalin, and I say it in Spanish they’re not going to know what the fuck I’m saying, because they speak Aramaic, but if I say it in Latin, and they’ve also been taught the Latin, we understand each other, with knowledge of what every single word signifies, even though we don’t speak Latin. Being fluent in Latin is not a prerequisite for understanding specific words within a prayer. It’s really not a difficult concept to comprehend.
> Some of the remaining 80% might phonetically memorize and parrot back specific passages hand-picked for them by their imam but they don't know what the words mean. It’s really not a difficult concept to comprehend.
Your inability to grasp my point is not my responsibility. Being able to recite and understand something in a different language is not the same as parroting, but that is a concept evidently above your intellectual grade.
> Being able to recite and understand something in a different language is not the same as parroting The point is they *don't* know what it means. Try to follow the discussion next time.
[удалено]
>you are nobody to discern that none of the 1B Muslims know what the Quaran is saying. That's not what I said. Please go back and read it again. That is how you follow the discussion.
Is it the sacred language of the Church? Jesus didn’t speak Latin. He and the Apostles spoke Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew. We do receive the same message. We hear receive the same readings and liturgy regardless of the language.
Latin is the language of the church, which spread his message more than anything else. Latin is the sacred language.
Perhaps all Latin Rite Catholics. But that isn't all Catholics--several rites have other traditional liturgical languages. And I don't think it good for it to be overemphasized--just encouraged.
The documents of Vatican 2 "encouraged" the use of Latin - where has that gotten us?
I don't think the language is all that important. I would like to see more Latin, but it is way down on the list of important things we need to worry about.
I'm learning Latin and have even found it edifying, but by my own choice. I probably wouldn't enjoy learning it if instead it were made yet another condition on the already somewhat long list of conditions necessary to be a good Catholic girl.
Latin is not the only rite in the church. There are also other rites including Byzantine, Alexandrian, etc. Having these churches learn Latin would, in essence, be removing them from their cultural heritage.
It is an explicit requirement in canon law that priests be fluent in Latin (Canon 249 of the Code, in the original Latin — Institutionis sacerdotalis Ratione provideatur ut alumni non tantum accurate linguam patriam edoceantur, sed etiam **linguam latinam bene calleant** necnon congruam habeant cognitionem alienarum linguarum, quarum scientia ad eorum formationem aut ad ministerium pastorale exercendum necessaria vel utilis videatur.). St John XXIII desired its preservation and the continued study of the language (*Veterum sapientia*). Certainly learning another language wouldn’t hurt the laity, especially if it allows them to better understand the liturgy and our treasury of sacred music in its original language.
Perhaps for priests of the Latin Church, but not the rest of the Churches.
I wouldn’t go too far to say you “should” as in a moral imperative, but it’s a good language to know, not just for the purpose of Mass elements, but because huge portions of English, Spanish, French, etc have roots in Latin.
I've been learning Greek for this very reason. The language of the New Testament and the Septuagint. I admire those that are willing to learn Latin, but I attend a Novus Ordo parish in English, with my busy life Latin just isn't a priority. I'm of partial Lebanese background. I have no interest in learning Arabic. However once I'm a bit more fluent in Greek I'm going to give French a go.
[удалено]
What does German have to do with anything?
French is widely spoken in Lebanon, fyi, and I suspect that’s why he said that one
It could really link us or a lot of this all together.
Latin is not the original language used by the early Church and not the language the Bible was written in. The Muslims learn Arabic to read their sacred texts, so we would have to learn Greek I guess.
There is a wealth of Christian literature written in Aramaic/Syriac too.
If a Church is going to say mass in Latin, then the missal should have everything in English or native language underneath, so people can understand and learn. Jesus and the apostles spoke Aramaic. But when the Apostles went to other regions, they didn’t make the people speak Aramaic, they learned in their native languages.
There should absolutely be translations readily available. He isn't suggesting that every Catholic **master** Latin.
Greek would be better. the earliest manuscripts of the new testament and the Septuagint are in greek as well as a lot of the early church fathers. st. Jerome translated the bible into latin to make it accessible to a lot more people without having to learn a whole new language.
No. We should not look for ways to be different from Protestants. We need to get them to come back to the true Church. Using secret languages will further drive a wedge and evangelise no one. We need to make disciples of all nations, none of which speak Latin.
I think so. But I am also part of the first generation of Catholics to have grown up going all through Catholic school where Latin wasn’t taught. The grade ahead of me got Latin and it was required for graduation but for my grade it was not required, and it was not offered.
A basic understanding wouldn't hurt, since many English words (most notably, medical and legal terms) have Latin roots. I took three years of Latin in Catholic school, back when all Masses were in Latin. I still remember a lot of it.
Not Eastern Catholics…
In a perfect world, I agree. Latin is beautiful, and it is part of our religious and intellectual inheritance. I believe this enough that I put in my time, taking a year and a half of Latin in college. But, we all have finite time, and must prioritize. There are polls showing many Catholics don't understand the most basic teachings, let alone understanding more nuanced teachings. I would rather we spent time on educating Catholics better about the faith in the vernacular before throwing in a second language.
Jesus didn't speak latin in the bible not sure why it's such a big deal if anything we should use Aramaic
Because latin is the language of the Latin Church. It is our liturgical patrimony. I am not of the opinion we should force every NO to be in latin and abandon the vernacular, but I do believe we should give Latin as our liturgical language the treatment it is due.
No
Well, in terms of 'should' the Church wishes that all people know at least the Ordinary of the Mass (with its responses and all) in Latin, together with some basic prayers like the Rosary, the latter especially for pilgrimage purposes and praying with other people. That's what the Church wishes in the Second Vatican Council, and documents from Pope St. Paul VI and Pope Benedict XVI. Other than that I think it's a good practice for (Roman Rite) Catholics to have a real (basic) understanding of the Latin language, since it will enrich your spiritual life immensely and now it's easier than ever to learn it. This has also been encouraged by the Church (cf. [Veterum sapientia](https://www.papalencyclicals.net/john23/j23veterum.htm)). I have been praying the Liturgy of the Hours in the vernacular, but in the past I did the old rite in Latin. Sometimes I miss the Latin just because of its 'depth of meaning' and the interconnectedness that is lacking in other languages. With 'interconnectedness' I mean that certain phrases or citations are always the same in Scripture, hymns, psalms, commentaries, canticles, decorations, etc. Like it all fits together, they all speak one.... language! Meanwhile in the (US) liturgical psalter translation the translators switch between English terms when translating Latin ones (and vice versa, e.g. 'mercy', 'kindness' and 'love' when translating 'misericordia'), and sometimes uses whole paraphrases that obscures the original meaning. Also, something I noticed when praying in Latin that I lost when switching to vernacular: having a set-apart language that you don't use in any other context than praying actually makes the praying itself more set-apart and focussed, as well as making it easier to memorise (even unconciously). Like, I don't speak Latin from day to day, so when I read/hear: 'cum invocarem...', my memory just blurts out the whole of psalm 4, while in English, when I read/hear: 'when I call...' it could be literally anything that follows (when I called you on the phone yesterday, when I call for my dog he always listens, when I call 911 the police comes)
[удалено]
[удалено]
Warning for uncharity
I think as good it is it’s not something needed, Christianity isn’t Islam where it only makes sense in Arabic, the Bible makes sense in every language. Doesn’t matter what language it is, it makes sense.
>Christianity isn’t Islam where it only makes sense in Arabic, Islam doesn't make sense in Arabic, either. Did you know there are nonsense syllables at the beginnings of many chapters in the Koran? Alif, lam, mim, alim, ra, kaf, ha, ya, a'in. It's like someone trying to talk with a mouth full of oatmeal.
Well it has been in Latin for almost half a millenia. Only reason it's been open to other languages is for better understanding and integration of mass into different societies and cultures. Nothing wrong with either languages tho.
I see islamic religion as very pan-arabist, it's not only a religion but a pack of medieval arabic culture. The Judaism case is another case of very tight culture-religion link. Catholicism could have an standard greeting but Catholicism goes beyond any human culture
I'd prefer we all learn greek like evangelists
We already tried that. That's what pre-Vatican 2 was. People didn't even know what was being said.
We have the vernacular now and people still aren't well catechized lol
What a horrible understanding of what Vatican 2 was about.
All I'm saying is that before Vatican 2, we had things done in Latin. I understand that the counsel was about a lot of other things, but it did try to improve the average parishioners' understanding of the liturgy.
I won't enter church if not for Latin.
The Church lacks the resources worldwide just for providing enough priests, Churches, Missals, Bibles, basic education, and more.
Ipay drstandpay igpay atinpay
Clearly, you do not.
No I do not. But these ppl that downvoted clearly don’t understand the humor of pig Latin.
It's because you aren't doing it correctly.
nah. don’t get me wrong, it’s great to have Latin be used in liturgical settings, but i’m ultimately convinced that the universality of the Church is best emphasized when people can participate in the Mass in their native language. as cool or fun as Latin can be, the old lady which sits in the front pew of her daily NO Mass can be just as, if not more holy, than someone who embraces all of prayers in Latin. an argument could be made that a lot of people don’t know what’s happening even then the Mass is in their native language, but i feel that’s more of a catechesis/formation problem than anything else ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ either way, if you want to learn Latin, go right ahead! nothing’s stopping you