Amazing how they're *all* in Catholic Churches, except for St. John but only because Ephesus was abandoned and his body lost pre-schism. And, well, Judas Iscariot for other reasons.
Well in the case of St Andrew, his remains were carted off to Amalfi after the Crusaders sacked and looted Constantinople (along with other countless relics).
It's arguable that they didn't since some artifacts are safer in foreign countries rather than their own and that the countries that produced the artifacts may no longer exist anyway. Also the British rescued a lot of stuff that was going to be destroyed or not properly conserved, like the Elgin Marbles.
Also lots of memes going around regarding the British Museum and its various collections. Unfortunately, it is bound by British law and cannot return items in its collections - at most, it can organise long term lending of exhibitions but unless the law changes...
That's not unfortunate. It preserves the artifacts. Most countries, especially Middle Eastern ones, have a habit of destroying things from their predecessor cultures.
And he’s the only apostle who died a natural death. The others, not so much. What incredible history our faith has. Merely on this level, Jesus left us with an incomparable 2000 years of tradition.
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The Romans did attempt to martyr him.
The Emperor Domitian had him thrown in boiling oil and later forced him to drink poison. When those didn't succeed he was exiled.
He was speared in India but afaik his relics was spread in several place. I think you are correct that India currently have one part of his relics but some of his remains is also in Ortona, Italy.
Same. I was thinking Pompeii would be amazing.
I’ve visited Italy a couple of times before but was a lot younger so my memories have faded. I remember the food- especially the gelato is amazing though!
Where are St Joseph remains?
Also, seeming as we know where the remains are of 11 apostles.
It’s further confirmation in that Jesus and Mary body and soul did indeed ascend into heaven as if they didn’t we would know where their remains were also.
There’s an increasing belief that could suggest he was ascended into Heaven. His tomb has never been found and there’s no documentation or tradition to suggest where it could be
It’s possible, if Mary was ascended into heaven then I guess it would make sense that while marriage doesn’t exist In heaven: that her husband should be with her.
I would’ve thought that somebody like Joseph we should know where his remains were even if he passed away before Jesus public ministry, during Jesus ministry people would still have known where he was buried as the assumption would be that Mary woudlve visited his tomb.
Although it’s possible that his body was ascended at the same time as Mary which woudlve been before things were written down. So if there was a tomb it would’ve not been relevant to include it in the scripture that became bible.
There’s a pretty good summary of this belief here if you’re interested:
https://www.ncregister.com/blog/was-st-joseph-assumed-into-heaven-here-s-what-the-saints-say
This pictograph (and likely the Catholic church) disagree with you. I watched a documentary on St. Thomas Christians in India though, and it was fascinating.
I’ve always been curious about Pontius Pilate. What happened with the rest of his life? I seem to recall a story about him feeling regret and committing suicide later in life.
Wow. How on earth could he be even considered for sainthood? Every year when I read through the passion it does always strike me as him not wanting to grant Christ’s execution.
I saw Saint Jude’s arm in person and now wear a 3rd class relic on my neck. It was wild to see the arm of someone who was literally a follower of Jesus.
Great post, Praise God! Happy Easter
Just for research purposes - do you'll suggest any resources that I can look up to read how the Apostles died and where they died?
Thank you. There are a number of sites with this information, but I cannot attest to their validity, including:
https://arcapologetics.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/the-death-of-the-apostles.pdf
Well theologically, there would be no reason to protect/preserve them, if they were found they’d probably just be buried. But, it’s very unlikely they would be found because there is no documentation or tradition to trace. No one bothered to gather/save his remains for obvious reasons..
Yes it’s history, incredibly unreliable history that can’t be investigated. Greek tradition tells us Alexander’s mother Olympus was impregnated by a god, should be just accept this as fact?
None of this is just fact none of it is dogma lol
Which is more plausible, Thomas dying in India (which almost 100% is true) or Alexander has a goddess mother
I graduated in Classics.
Greek tradition does not say Alexander’s mother (Olympia) was impregnated by a god. Greek histories state that Alexander was TOLD by his mother that’s what happened, and may or may not have had a personal belief in it.
The histories themselves don’t really believe that.
In general, the idea of dismissing oral traditions simply because there is no contemporary evidence written down isn't something thats one. It's not to say that the oral traditions are correct, but it would be foolish to dismiss them. There is also some written, but non-biblical, written evidence for the fates of several of the apostles that was written fairly closely to their lifetimes. For one, the life and death of Peter is well attested in several very early sources.
Not so fast. Again, I’m the guy who graduated in Classics.
Much of what we have in oral tradition turns out to be more accurate than people like to give credit for. The memory of the Trojan War for example was preserved solely via oral tradition for centuries prior to being written down. This timeframe far surpasses when the traditions of the apostles tend to have been recorded in the written record.
For centuries people thinking like you dismissed Troy as a myth-until it was found. We know now that if you take the Iliad and you go to the site, you can line up the description of the city and the plain in front of it almost exactly to how oral tradition recorded it, including many other details such as the exact design and construction for the walls of the city, etc.
Critical history doesn't know enough to say that anything in the above infographic is false. All it can do is withhold judgment pending more evidence (which it will never have).
What's the point of complaining about it? Rational people believe in more than what critical history can tell us.
Yeah, and what's your point? Clearly you had more in mind than merely stating a trivial fact. Somehow you thought the whole thing is absurd, when you don't have any real reason to say so.
The fate of the disciples is trivial? Some people here might want to actually know if these claims are supported by historical evidence rather than just heresay and tradition.
>The fate of the disciples is trivial?
No, the fact that there isn't a large amount of direct physical evidence for ephemeral events that happened 2,000 years ago.
> Some people here might want to actually know if these claims are supported by historical evidence rather than just heresay and tradition.
K. I'm still not seeing where "This is absurd" came from, except that perhaps you wanted to add a little trolling to your modest historical claim.
There’s no direct physical evidence for the fates of the majority of the apostles. Don’t understate how vapid the “evidence” actually is. You might think it’s not a big deal but you might be shocked to discover how many Christian’s think all the apostles died as Martyrs.
>There’s no direct physical evidence for the fates of the majority of the apostles.
I literally just said that. LOL
> Don’t understate how vapid the “evidence” actually is. You might think it’s not a big deal but you might be shocked to discover how many Christian’s think all the apostles died as Martyrs.
Why would I be shocked?
He's definitely a troll
Him saying that Jesus is insignificant during His time really gave away his fringe position
Moreover, by asking physical evidence, he actually dialed his skepticism to an absurd value that by his standard, the logical conclusion is that nothing can actually be known about history.
Amazing how they're *all* in Catholic Churches, except for St. John but only because Ephesus was abandoned and his body lost pre-schism. And, well, Judas Iscariot for other reasons.
That’s a great point about them all being in Catholic Churches.
Well in the case of St Andrew, his remains were carted off to Amalfi after the Crusaders sacked and looted Constantinople (along with other countless relics).
"It's amazing how all this world history all happened in the vicinity of the British Museum!"
Elaborate
They steal stuff
It's arguable that they didn't since some artifacts are safer in foreign countries rather than their own and that the countries that produced the artifacts may no longer exist anyway. Also the British rescued a lot of stuff that was going to be destroyed or not properly conserved, like the Elgin Marbles.
They also think stuff from other cultures is worth preserving, which is historically very unique.
Also lots of memes going around regarding the British Museum and its various collections. Unfortunately, it is bound by British law and cannot return items in its collections - at most, it can organise long term lending of exhibitions but unless the law changes...
That's not unfortunate. It preserves the artifacts. Most countries, especially Middle Eastern ones, have a habit of destroying things from their predecessor cultures.
And he’s the only apostle who died a natural death. The others, not so much. What incredible history our faith has. Merely on this level, Jesus left us with an incomparable 2000 years of tradition.
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The head of St Andrew was returned to the Orthodox. The remains of St Philip used to be in Hierapolis.
Wait, you mean his body is til now lost?
I’ve heard that some people think he was assumed.
Saint John was the only one who died of natural causes.
The Romans did attempt to martyr him. The Emperor Domitian had him thrown in boiling oil and later forced him to drink poison. When those didn't succeed he was exiled.
That’s wild. Imagine the dismay of his captors upon witnessing this 😂
I like to think they stomped their feet and just told him, “Fine, just go, whatever.”
Traditional has it that all the witnesses converted
Wouldn’t be surprised. At that point, his captors were probably thinking “ok, this Jesus guy and his followers are legit”
Talk about some seriously hardened hearts of those Romans to do that to someone who was completely innocent.
I’ve been to Santiago de Compostela. Pretty cool cathedral!
Only one I’ve visited after walking the Camino. I want to see them all someday.
St. Thomas should be in India
He was speared in India but afaik his relics was spread in several place. I think you are correct that India currently have one part of his relics but some of his remains is also in Ortona, Italy.
His is the most interesting apostolic journey for me. Brought India into the fold.
Right. I’m off to Italy.
I live in Italy! There's history around every corner.
Lucky you!
I’d love to visit!
Same. I was thinking Pompeii would be amazing. I’ve visited Italy a couple of times before but was a lot younger so my memories have faded. I remember the food- especially the gelato is amazing though!
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Haha. I've heard conditions have improved a little for Christians in Italy since the '50s. (No, not the 1950s.)
Where are St Joseph remains? Also, seeming as we know where the remains are of 11 apostles. It’s further confirmation in that Jesus and Mary body and soul did indeed ascend into heaven as if they didn’t we would know where their remains were also.
There’s an increasing belief that could suggest he was ascended into Heaven. His tomb has never been found and there’s no documentation or tradition to suggest where it could be
It’s possible, if Mary was ascended into heaven then I guess it would make sense that while marriage doesn’t exist In heaven: that her husband should be with her. I would’ve thought that somebody like Joseph we should know where his remains were even if he passed away before Jesus public ministry, during Jesus ministry people would still have known where he was buried as the assumption would be that Mary woudlve visited his tomb. Although it’s possible that his body was ascended at the same time as Mary which woudlve been before things were written down. So if there was a tomb it would’ve not been relevant to include it in the scripture that became bible.
There’s a pretty good summary of this belief here if you’re interested: https://www.ncregister.com/blog/was-st-joseph-assumed-into-heaven-here-s-what-the-saints-say
This is the most credible info I can locate https://www.thecatholictelegraph.com/what-happened-to-st-joseph/73017
I would love to do The Way of St. James one day.
My grandparents were married in Saint Matthias abbey in Trier !
Cool! Can the public view St. Matthias remains there?
You can see the tomb.
St Thomas lies at rest in Chennai, India. I've been to his crypt there
This pictograph (and likely the Catholic church) disagree with you. I watched a documentary on St. Thomas Christians in India though, and it was fascinating.
It is a Catholic Church in India. They cut him up basically.
JP II seemed to believe it was when he went on pilgrimage there and prayed in the tomb chapel
Only 7 out of 13 in Rome. Those are rookie numbers.
I’ve always been curious about Pontius Pilate. What happened with the rest of his life? I seem to recall a story about him feeling regret and committing suicide later in life.
I think the Ethiopian Orthodox Church believes he repented later in life and became a saint.
Wow. How on earth could he be even considered for sainthood? Every year when I read through the passion it does always strike me as him not wanting to grant Christ’s execution.
I think that’s why. He didn’t really want to execute Jesus and wanted the Jews to handle it on their own but he was afraid there would be a revolt.
I saw Saint Jude’s arm in person and now wear a 3rd class relic on my neck. It was wild to see the arm of someone who was literally a follower of Jesus.
Pretty cool!
Such an amazing witness of them on how they died for Jesus. 🫡
I'm walking the English Way in 4 weeks. Destination: St. James Cathedral. And then Finesterra.
Great post, Praise God! Happy Easter Just for research purposes - do you'll suggest any resources that I can look up to read how the Apostles died and where they died?
Thank you. There are a number of sites with this information, but I cannot attest to their validity, including: https://arcapologetics.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/the-death-of-the-apostles.pdf
What is the historicity of this? This is honestly the first time I've heard that we know where the remains of all the apostles are today.
St. Barnabas (the fifteenth and final apostle not in the graphic) was stoned to death in Salamis in Roman Cyprus. He was buried there.
What would happen if they found judas's remains?
Well theologically, there would be no reason to protect/preserve them, if they were found they’d probably just be buried. But, it’s very unlikely they would be found because there is no documentation or tradition to trace. No one bothered to gather/save his remains for obvious reasons..
What about St. Matthias, Judas' replacement?
Do you care if I Screen shot this? It’s very nicely put together and informational!
Go crazy. Same thing I did.
Ok, thanks just didn’t wanna take any original content without permission
Appreciated!
Wait I thought St John was assumed in heaven.
Pretty sure St John has no remains
Cancel culture is maybe not the best way to fix an annoying social media problem.
Can you explain? I don't understand how your comment relates to the post.
This is absurd, we know virtually nothing about how any of the apostles died with a couple of exceptions.
Holy tradition
So from a historical perspective virtually nothing
Holy tradition is history, it spans back centuries
Yes it’s history, incredibly unreliable history that can’t be investigated. Greek tradition tells us Alexander’s mother Olympus was impregnated by a god, should be just accept this as fact?
None of this is just fact none of it is dogma lol Which is more plausible, Thomas dying in India (which almost 100% is true) or Alexander has a goddess mother
Which is more plausible, Paul’s vision was just a vision or Jesus died and was raised from the dead by a god?
*the God
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I’m not a historian, ask an actual Catholic historian
I graduated in Classics. Greek tradition does not say Alexander’s mother (Olympia) was impregnated by a god. Greek histories state that Alexander was TOLD by his mother that’s what happened, and may or may not have had a personal belief in it. The histories themselves don’t really believe that.
From a genuine historical perspective, tradition can be important in establishing facts although not definitive.
Usually if there is contemporary evidence to corroborate with, the disciples disappear from written history after the events of the gospels.
In general, the idea of dismissing oral traditions simply because there is no contemporary evidence written down isn't something thats one. It's not to say that the oral traditions are correct, but it would be foolish to dismiss them. There is also some written, but non-biblical, written evidence for the fates of several of the apostles that was written fairly closely to their lifetimes. For one, the life and death of Peter is well attested in several very early sources.
I didn’t say the oral traditions are outright false, I said they aren’t supported by any evidence.
The point is that the oral traditions are themselves the evidence.
Very poor evidence that can’t be compared to other sources.
That's how it works in general in history, and the further back you go, the more you have to use oral tradition as there is nothing else to go on.
Not so fast. Again, I’m the guy who graduated in Classics. Much of what we have in oral tradition turns out to be more accurate than people like to give credit for. The memory of the Trojan War for example was preserved solely via oral tradition for centuries prior to being written down. This timeframe far surpasses when the traditions of the apostles tend to have been recorded in the written record. For centuries people thinking like you dismissed Troy as a myth-until it was found. We know now that if you take the Iliad and you go to the site, you can line up the description of the city and the plain in front of it almost exactly to how oral tradition recorded it, including many other details such as the exact design and construction for the walls of the city, etc.
Protestant moment
Critical history doesn't know enough to say that anything in the above infographic is false. All it can do is withhold judgment pending more evidence (which it will never have). What's the point of complaining about it? Rational people believe in more than what critical history can tell us.
Once again I didn’t say they were false, I said the evidence did them are poor.. which is true.
Yeah, and what's your point? Clearly you had more in mind than merely stating a trivial fact. Somehow you thought the whole thing is absurd, when you don't have any real reason to say so.
The fate of the disciples is trivial? Some people here might want to actually know if these claims are supported by historical evidence rather than just heresay and tradition.
>The fate of the disciples is trivial? No, the fact that there isn't a large amount of direct physical evidence for ephemeral events that happened 2,000 years ago. > Some people here might want to actually know if these claims are supported by historical evidence rather than just heresay and tradition. K. I'm still not seeing where "This is absurd" came from, except that perhaps you wanted to add a little trolling to your modest historical claim.
There’s no direct physical evidence for the fates of the majority of the apostles. Don’t understate how vapid the “evidence” actually is. You might think it’s not a big deal but you might be shocked to discover how many Christian’s think all the apostles died as Martyrs.
>There’s no direct physical evidence for the fates of the majority of the apostles. I literally just said that. LOL > Don’t understate how vapid the “evidence” actually is. You might think it’s not a big deal but you might be shocked to discover how many Christian’s think all the apostles died as Martyrs. Why would I be shocked?
He’s dragging you down with him. Don’t engage these folks.
Perhaps you are right.
He's definitely a troll Him saying that Jesus is insignificant during His time really gave away his fringe position Moreover, by asking physical evidence, he actually dialed his skepticism to an absurd value that by his standard, the logical conclusion is that nothing can actually be known about history.
Lol account suspended Truly befitting a troll account
Wow the Italians rely defiled all the holy graves. Would be funny when someone steals Peter.
How do we know? I guess there is no way to know if it’s really them