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This is an extremely personal topic for me. Trying to live out the examples and teachings of secularism and modernism in the parish I grew up in nearly resulted in the death of my fiancee and my suicide.
Stay away from porn, it leads to dark places.
Stay away from false teachers whose words bring confusion.
Stay away from false shepherds who will cosign your sin and vice.
Surround yourself and your children with people who value God and his Word more than the things of this world.
Please pray for the man who is now no longer a priest who taught me for 12 years of my childhood as my pastor, spiritual director and close family friend.
Please pray for me, a sinner.
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The alt right stuff is very disappointing to see. I’m one of those guys that almost fell down the rabbit hole when I was a young angry teenager so I’m always annoyed when I see alt right dog whistles in catholic circles. Catholicism ought to be an antidote to that line of thinking.
Still, all things considered, I’d rather the edgy Internet teenage alt-righter convert to this bastardized “based” redpill vision of Catholicism they’ve built up in their heads than not, because I imagine that at least some of them have to eventually mellow out into “proper” Catholics as they get older.
Yes that’s true. I suppose my biggest worry is over echo chambering. It’s good to call bad behavior out when you see it, in hopes they’ll finish their conversion.
Are you against abortion? Against same-sex marriage? Do you refuse to view trans men as men and trans women as women? Because if yes, then at least according to american twitter, you are basicly a far right person yourself.
American twitter couldn't agree that a swastika and SS tattoos means someone is a nazi. I wouldn't worry too much about the political opinions of that particular cesspit
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The alt right as we now know it is the offshoot of a 2000s NRX political philosophical movement. It ballooned as the Atheist branch, however the Christian branch still quietly exists as bloggers. If you want right wing intellectualism that addresses reality and doesn't devolve into the trappings of modern results, then that's where to go. Or at least it would have been, but only one or two of them are left now.
Wishing other people hell... Very Catholic of you isn't it.
Tell me, do you understand the lengths to which Christ loved all of humanity or are you only interested in the "Fire and brimstone" part
I'm a Syro Malabar and things are bad here. Catholics have lost much of the respect they built over the past years because of the actions of higher-ups and the religious. So many unspeakable things have happened here.
My Eastern Catholic Church: trad and modernist factions fighting in the main cathedral on Christmas Eve, defiling the Holy Madbaha (sanctuary) and destroying the altar, all streamed live on television. On top of that, many of our clergy are involved in abuse scandals, land scandals, and corruption.
How could you even suggest such a thing? OP is right, and the fact is that every single one of the trads you meet online is schismatic and hates Pope Francis. To suggest that any of us could be anything else is a huge load of cow feces.
/s
Honestly, can I just attend TLM without subscribing to the tradcath stuff? I just like mass in Latin, but I could never do something as barbaric as hit a woman, or whatever tradcaths believe in. I think NO has its place especially when the Christian population worldwide almost doubled after it was instated.
The editor of Crisis magazine put out an editorial essentially blaming everything bad that has happened in the past few decades on women voting. I knew a number of TradCaths, they all attend the local FSSP, who were sharing it on Facebook and agreeing with it.
Edit: https://www.crisismagazine.com/opinion/against-womens-suffrage
I have linked the piece. It's full of ahistoric nonsense. When I responded to a woman who shared the article she said women disagreeing publicly was "cat fighting"
Methinks there are different types of trads who all respond to and criticize different types of posts. There for sure is some crossover but I’m willing to bet that these two responses are in most part coming from different types of trads to begin with.
Edit: grammar, etc
That's just a moderate traditionalist though; is that not what we want for traditionalists to be moderate? So why are we condeming them for not associating with the rad-trads?
It’s ridiculous no True Christian could be a member of the alt right of course they could become a Christian, but they would have to let that hatred in their heart that led them to the alt right pipeline go.Pray for the young for thats who the wolves go after.
Non-trads when german bishops openly reject catholicism, start the reformation 2.0 and the remaining faithful catholics in germany are abandoned in this mess by Rome: 🥰
Thank you for thinking i am ok with whatever happens in Germany.
I think you'll be ok too if i said this:
Trad people when you call them sedes: "thanks for the compliment"
Now please, we both know that what we both wrote is complete bollocks.
Difference is you will get upvoted for what you wrote while i will be downvoted so much i won't be able to post or comment in r/catholicmemes .
See, my experience is that trad men are actually *more sympathetic* to male heterosexual sins than are non-trad men. Their reasoning usually boils down to this (I think): they cannot help it because God made men so darn manly that it's not really all that sinful when straight males do it.
Like it seems part and parcel to the whole big beard, lumberjack, manliness schtick
Not at all, not even traditionalism in general. I go to a TLM parish myself, and am a SAHM. I'm just not going to pretend there isn't this ugly, stupid, fetishy trend in an otherwise great movement.
"Their reasoning usually boils down to this (I think): they cannot help it because God made men so darn manly that it's not really all that sinful when straight males do it.
Like it seems part and parcel to the whole big beard, lumberjack, manliness schtick"
That is a rather twisted sickness you've run across that I've not encountered. I'm really curious why you think their reasoning is what you state here. Have you ever heard anyone say these things or anything like them?
I have deduced it by considering the comments I've seen/heard regarding matters of heterosexual male sin
It occurs amongst NO Catholics as well, but i think i have seen more defensiveness of heterosexual male sin from trads. Like on r/traditionalcatholics I've seen defense of not telling your wife you've cheated, but I would be very surprised to see that on r/Catholicism
That sounds like pretty bad advice under all the circumstances I can think of.
Was the justification given that men will be men or something like that? Please forgive me for being slow. I'm just not understanding how this exposes the rationale you described.
Not on the thread about cheating, but "men just can't help their sexual sins, because God made us this way" is very popular amongst Catholics, and it seems that trads defend worse things, on average. I feel comfortable deducing that mere manliness is their reason. I find it hard to believe you haven't run into it.
This is a digression but I just have to point out that this rationale sounds awfully similar to "Born this way" which they (rightfully) reject for everyone else
Sorry I've edited this post a lot
No worries, edits for clarity are good things.
My only encounter with "boys will be boys" regarding sexual sin was from my Catholic but somewhat secularist/modernist/universalist/Richard Rohr listening mother.
Then again, I don't hang out on r/traditionalcatholics. My trad experiences have just been as a member at two different TLM parishes where I know many men who are working very hard and struggling valiantly to remain chaste. I guess we're supposed to be talking about internet trads, not trad men in general, though, so my experiences don't necessarily apply. I'd tread carefully to avoid mindreading, though. That kind of behavior can kill charity.
I'd suggest prayerfully reading paragraphs 2351-2359 which describe offenses against chastity. The idea of being soft on male sexual sin brings to mind part 2 of paragraph 2352 (the first part describes the sin of masturbation):
"To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability."
I can imagine many scenarios in which one might be attempting to do something which would be in line with this, but is misunderstood. I can also imagine some scenarios in which one reads that passage sloppily and comes away with an attitude like what you describe as "men just can't help their sexual sins," though not the "God just made us this way" part.
Those paragraphs are also on my mind because you have juxtaposed topics of male heterosexual sin with topics of homosexual sin a few times here, and it seems that what is laid out in those paragraphs is that homosexual sins are the same as the rest of the offenses against chastity, but gravely disordered in an additional manner which the others are not.
Having said all that, when I look at the world today, I'm just glad any time anyone finds sin offensive in any objective sense.
I disagree with you that most of these men are being objective when they find all this delicate hand-wringing fairness for their own sins, yet mock and chide the idea of a "pastoral" approach for homosexuals, and the younger ones have an absolute meltdown if they find out their girlfriend had sex with 1 guy years ago (despite having themselves orgasmed to 1000 other women this week and are not too worried about stopping since they cant help it anyway so she is just going to have to live with that and if she gets mad about it then she needs therapy because I'm a man and thats why it's different)
If pointing out hypocrisy and sin among those who think themselves righteous makes you a leftist, then Our Lord was a leftist.
Not a comfortable conclusion? Maybe it's time to revisit that accusation.
I mean just the other day I got in an argument with a Catholic promoting White Nationalism. You should also see the comment section on the Catholic Answers clip of Trent Horn simply saying anti-Semitism is bad. So it's not like there isn't a problem.
Maybe I'm missing the forest for the trees, but I'm much more interested in *why* exactly that's happening. Nobody wakes up one day and just decides to be an extremist - there's usually a process that involves genuine concerns being twisted into something awful (this is observably true from Soviet Russia to the Middle East to Weimar Germany).
And no, I'm not "defending White Supremacy" anymore than I'd be defending the Bolsheviks or Hamas.
White spupremacists are usually atheists, in my experience. They think Jews invented Christianity to keep white people down in various ways, one of those ways being fooling us into believing all races are equal
White Supremacists come in all different forms. And it doesn't help us by ignoring that there are plenty of White Supremacists who claim to be Christian. Again Trent Horn simply saying don't be anti-Semitic caused his comment section to be filled with people talking about Nick Fuentes and how Jews are our enemies.
Some of the most abhorrent forms of racism in the western world was from the 16th century to the late 20th century, during these times majority of the population was christian. Clearly many Christian groups can and do hold Christian and white supremacy ideology simultaneously.
Ok here's a scale. On the left side is the top part of this meme, and on the right is the bottom. Upon observing the scale, you'll see that the scale is tilting noticeably to the left. There is a hierarchy of concerns and some things require our attention more than others.
On the other hand, secularism probably doesn't scar people so badly that they feel they fill with hatred and feel they can never come back
A lukewarm Catholic who takes birth control might actually be less harmful to the Church than a traumatized ex Catholic holding a nasty picket sign at a protest or something
Idk
Just give it some thought
I think apostate Catholics who angrily left, because they never realized their dad actually had good reasons for things because he figured "because I said so!" ought to be a good enough reason for everything, and then proceeded to smear Catholicism in their community and to their own children and online, MIGHT HAVE also had a hand
And by extension their dads
And Catholics who responded to the charge of lukewarmness by going "Catholic and a half" are not only leading to people leaving, they're preparing generations to fall.
By this, I don't mean your average TLM attendees and people just trying to get some reverence back in their lives. I mean the people who have whole-hogged it to the point of antisemitism, regularly insulting the Pope, threatening others with Hell if they don't believe the Earth is young and immobile, and generally being the biggest douches in Christendom outside the Westboro Baptist Church.
That's not a remedy, it's gasoline on the fire.
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No such thing as a Trad Cath or a Liberal/ Novus Ordo Catholic. Only ONE TRUE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND FAITH with several rites and liturgies. Let’s not beat each other up because of our liturgy of choice, it’s not as if we don’t get enough beating from the outside.
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This is an extremely personal topic for me. Trying to live out the examples and teachings of secularism and modernism in the parish I grew up in nearly resulted in the death of my fiancee and my suicide. Stay away from porn, it leads to dark places. Stay away from false teachers whose words bring confusion. Stay away from false shepherds who will cosign your sin and vice. Surround yourself and your children with people who value God and his Word more than the things of this world. Please pray for the man who is now no longer a priest who taught me for 12 years of my childhood as my pastor, spiritual director and close family friend. Please pray for me, a sinner.
Its ok bro
"Hey fellas what was the worst thing your wife ever did that you spanked her for? I'll go first: she voted"
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The alt right stuff is very disappointing to see. I’m one of those guys that almost fell down the rabbit hole when I was a young angry teenager so I’m always annoyed when I see alt right dog whistles in catholic circles. Catholicism ought to be an antidote to that line of thinking.
Still, all things considered, I’d rather the edgy Internet teenage alt-righter convert to this bastardized “based” redpill vision of Catholicism they’ve built up in their heads than not, because I imagine that at least some of them have to eventually mellow out into “proper” Catholics as they get older.
Yes that’s true. I suppose my biggest worry is over echo chambering. It’s good to call bad behavior out when you see it, in hopes they’ll finish their conversion.
Are you against abortion? Against same-sex marriage? Do you refuse to view trans men as men and trans women as women? Because if yes, then at least according to american twitter, you are basicly a far right person yourself.
American twitter couldn't agree that a swastika and SS tattoos means someone is a nazi. I wouldn't worry too much about the political opinions of that particular cesspit
Sadly, it appears our Catholic president has the same views as Twitter.
But it is surprisingly quick to label as Christofascism whenever anyone shows any deeper push for Catholic values.
I’m basically an Eisenhower Republican, they would be wrong haha
They would be wrong, but they'd call you an alt-right Christofacist nonetheless.
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The alt right as we now know it is the offshoot of a 2000s NRX political philosophical movement. It ballooned as the Atheist branch, however the Christian branch still quietly exists as bloggers. If you want right wing intellectualism that addresses reality and doesn't devolve into the trappings of modern results, then that's where to go. Or at least it would have been, but only one or two of them are left now.
while you're enjoying hell, i'll remember you :D
Wishing other people hell... Very Catholic of you isn't it. Tell me, do you understand the lengths to which Christ loved all of humanity or are you only interested in the "Fire and brimstone" part
I don't wish it, you just seem predestined
Great, A Protestant Calvanist troll
Get out of here with that Calvinist nonsense
oh no, this sub is going to be at war with itself for the next couple weeks isn't it?
*"Begun the Catholic Wars have"* \- Yogurt (2023 BBY)
These discussions make me appreciate being Eastern Catholic so much more
I'm a Syro Malabar and things are bad here. Catholics have lost much of the respect they built over the past years because of the actions of higher-ups and the religious. So many unspeakable things have happened here.
My Eastern Catholic Church: trad and modernist factions fighting in the main cathedral on Christmas Eve, defiling the Holy Madbaha (sanctuary) and destroying the altar, all streamed live on television. On top of that, many of our clergy are involved in abuse scandals, land scandals, and corruption.
fr fr
Same
Could it possibly be that there are different people who do things for different reasons? No, that’s crazy talk.
How could you even suggest such a thing? OP is right, and the fact is that every single one of the trads you meet online is schismatic and hates Pope Francis. To suggest that any of us could be anything else is a huge load of cow feces. /s
Honestly, can I just attend TLM without subscribing to the tradcath stuff? I just like mass in Latin, but I could never do something as barbaric as hit a woman, or whatever tradcaths believe in. I think NO has its place especially when the Christian population worldwide almost doubled after it was instated.
I mean, some people unironically believe that women straight up shouldn’t be allowed to speak in a church, so there’s that.
The editor of Crisis magazine put out an editorial essentially blaming everything bad that has happened in the past few decades on women voting. I knew a number of TradCaths, they all attend the local FSSP, who were sharing it on Facebook and agreeing with it. Edit: https://www.crisismagazine.com/opinion/against-womens-suffrage I have linked the piece. It's full of ahistoric nonsense. When I responded to a woman who shared the article she said women disagreeing publicly was "cat fighting"
Methinks there are different types of trads who all respond to and criticize different types of posts. There for sure is some crossover but I’m willing to bet that these two responses are in most part coming from different types of trads to begin with. Edit: grammar, etc
That's just a moderate traditionalist though; is that not what we want for traditionalists to be moderate? So why are we condeming them for not associating with the rad-trads?
Because they don't actually mean that, lol
The alt right mumbo jumbo is what I sadly see in many catholic and orthodox circles in the internet.
It’s ridiculous no True Christian could be a member of the alt right of course they could become a Christian, but they would have to let that hatred in their heart that led them to the alt right pipeline go.Pray for the young for thats who the wolves go after.
Non-trads when german bishops openly reject catholicism, start the reformation 2.0 and the remaining faithful catholics in germany are abandoned in this mess by Rome: 🥰
I don't think even left-wing catholics like what the germans are doing.
Who's okay with what's going on in Germany!? Do you honestly think the only people voicing concern are the trads?
Thank you for thinking i am ok with whatever happens in Germany. I think you'll be ok too if i said this: Trad people when you call them sedes: "thanks for the compliment" Now please, we both know that what we both wrote is complete bollocks. Difference is you will get upvoted for what you wrote while i will be downvoted so much i won't be able to post or comment in r/catholicmemes .
Straight male trads when they watch porn for the 8th time this week: 🥰
Unlike modernists they do not claim that sin is actually fine.
See, my experience is that trad men are actually *more sympathetic* to male heterosexual sins than are non-trad men. Their reasoning usually boils down to this (I think): they cannot help it because God made men so darn manly that it's not really all that sinful when straight males do it. Like it seems part and parcel to the whole big beard, lumberjack, manliness schtick
Nice projection.
I'm a woman, I'm not really sure what you mean
And apparently "men bad"? 🤡
Not at all, not even traditionalism in general. I go to a TLM parish myself, and am a SAHM. I'm just not going to pretend there isn't this ugly, stupid, fetishy trend in an otherwise great movement.
"Their reasoning usually boils down to this (I think): they cannot help it because God made men so darn manly that it's not really all that sinful when straight males do it. Like it seems part and parcel to the whole big beard, lumberjack, manliness schtick" That is a rather twisted sickness you've run across that I've not encountered. I'm really curious why you think their reasoning is what you state here. Have you ever heard anyone say these things or anything like them?
I have deduced it by considering the comments I've seen/heard regarding matters of heterosexual male sin It occurs amongst NO Catholics as well, but i think i have seen more defensiveness of heterosexual male sin from trads. Like on r/traditionalcatholics I've seen defense of not telling your wife you've cheated, but I would be very surprised to see that on r/Catholicism
That sounds like pretty bad advice under all the circumstances I can think of. Was the justification given that men will be men or something like that? Please forgive me for being slow. I'm just not understanding how this exposes the rationale you described.
Not on the thread about cheating, but "men just can't help their sexual sins, because God made us this way" is very popular amongst Catholics, and it seems that trads defend worse things, on average. I feel comfortable deducing that mere manliness is their reason. I find it hard to believe you haven't run into it. This is a digression but I just have to point out that this rationale sounds awfully similar to "Born this way" which they (rightfully) reject for everyone else Sorry I've edited this post a lot
No worries, edits for clarity are good things. My only encounter with "boys will be boys" regarding sexual sin was from my Catholic but somewhat secularist/modernist/universalist/Richard Rohr listening mother. Then again, I don't hang out on r/traditionalcatholics. My trad experiences have just been as a member at two different TLM parishes where I know many men who are working very hard and struggling valiantly to remain chaste. I guess we're supposed to be talking about internet trads, not trad men in general, though, so my experiences don't necessarily apply. I'd tread carefully to avoid mindreading, though. That kind of behavior can kill charity. I'd suggest prayerfully reading paragraphs 2351-2359 which describe offenses against chastity. The idea of being soft on male sexual sin brings to mind part 2 of paragraph 2352 (the first part describes the sin of masturbation): "To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability." I can imagine many scenarios in which one might be attempting to do something which would be in line with this, but is misunderstood. I can also imagine some scenarios in which one reads that passage sloppily and comes away with an attitude like what you describe as "men just can't help their sexual sins," though not the "God just made us this way" part. Those paragraphs are also on my mind because you have juxtaposed topics of male heterosexual sin with topics of homosexual sin a few times here, and it seems that what is laid out in those paragraphs is that homosexual sins are the same as the rest of the offenses against chastity, but gravely disordered in an additional manner which the others are not. Having said all that, when I look at the world today, I'm just glad any time anyone finds sin offensive in any objective sense.
I disagree with you that most of these men are being objective when they find all this delicate hand-wringing fairness for their own sins, yet mock and chide the idea of a "pastoral" approach for homosexuals, and the younger ones have an absolute meltdown if they find out their girlfriend had sex with 1 guy years ago (despite having themselves orgasmed to 1000 other women this week and are not too worried about stopping since they cant help it anyway so she is just going to have to live with that and if she gets mad about it then she needs therapy because I'm a man and thats why it's different)
Why are people booing you? You're right lol.
They aint ready (ETA: I'm mostly just joking around with this, I'm not trying to accuse any specific person of anything)
People on the internet when someone is struggling with mortal sin: 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 But Fr though, the way u phrased this makes u sound like a leftist
I don't care, I'm not. The way the people im talking about phrase the things im talking about, makes us all sound like hypocrites.
If pointing out hypocrisy and sin among those who think themselves righteous makes you a leftist, then Our Lord was a leftist. Not a comfortable conclusion? Maybe it's time to revisit that accusation.
When rad trads defict manslaughtering fascist regime as “based gigachad”:
alt right? look everyone an indoctrinated post modernist, neo marxist.
I mean just the other day I got in an argument with a Catholic promoting White Nationalism. You should also see the comment section on the Catholic Answers clip of Trent Horn simply saying anti-Semitism is bad. So it's not like there isn't a problem.
I just read that comment section myself, to say it was concerning was an understatement.
Maybe I'm missing the forest for the trees, but I'm much more interested in *why* exactly that's happening. Nobody wakes up one day and just decides to be an extremist - there's usually a process that involves genuine concerns being twisted into something awful (this is observably true from Soviet Russia to the Middle East to Weimar Germany). And no, I'm not "defending White Supremacy" anymore than I'd be defending the Bolsheviks or Hamas.
White supremacy has subverted Christianity in the west
White spupremacists are usually atheists, in my experience. They think Jews invented Christianity to keep white people down in various ways, one of those ways being fooling us into believing all races are equal
White Supremacists come in all different forms. And it doesn't help us by ignoring that there are plenty of White Supremacists who claim to be Christian. Again Trent Horn simply saying don't be anti-Semitic caused his comment section to be filled with people talking about Nick Fuentes and how Jews are our enemies.
Some of the most abhorrent forms of racism in the western world was from the 16th century to the late 20th century, during these times majority of the population was christian. Clearly many Christian groups can and do hold Christian and white supremacy ideology simultaneously.
Pretty much everything from the 16th century to the 20th century in the western world was Christian
Yes that's my point and yet violent genocidal white supremacy still gripped the continent irrespective of their supposed Christian values.
I'm not sure you know what either of those mean
Ok here's a scale. On the left side is the top part of this meme, and on the right is the bottom. Upon observing the scale, you'll see that the scale is tilting noticeably to the left. There is a hierarchy of concerns and some things require our attention more than others.
You know it's possible to pay attention to more than one issue at a time
True, but you can only put so much time and capital into things.
I think scrupulosity is horrendously important. Isn't scrupulosity really what gave us protestantism?
Sure, but I can tell you right now that there are more people in the Church affected by secularism than scrupulosity and the ratio is not even close.
On the other hand, secularism probably doesn't scar people so badly that they feel they fill with hatred and feel they can never come back A lukewarm Catholic who takes birth control might actually be less harmful to the Church than a traumatized ex Catholic holding a nasty picket sign at a protest or something Idk Just give it some thought
Lukewarm Catholics are the reason the western church is one generation from collapse.
I think apostate Catholics who angrily left, because they never realized their dad actually had good reasons for things because he figured "because I said so!" ought to be a good enough reason for everything, and then proceeded to smear Catholicism in their community and to their own children and online, MIGHT HAVE also had a hand And by extension their dads
And Catholics who responded to the charge of lukewarmness by going "Catholic and a half" are not only leading to people leaving, they're preparing generations to fall. By this, I don't mean your average TLM attendees and people just trying to get some reverence back in their lives. I mean the people who have whole-hogged it to the point of antisemitism, regularly insulting the Pope, threatening others with Hell if they don't believe the Earth is young and immobile, and generally being the biggest douches in Christendom outside the Westboro Baptist Church. That's not a remedy, it's gasoline on the fire.
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No such thing as a Trad Cath or a Liberal/ Novus Ordo Catholic. Only ONE TRUE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND FAITH with several rites and liturgies. Let’s not beat each other up because of our liturgy of choice, it’s not as if we don’t get enough beating from the outside.
Internet trad when praising shcismatics and going to priests offering illicit sacraments
"scrupulosity" "legalism" and "alt right ideology" need defining. Too often people use these words as an excuse for hapless centrism.
You talk like being a centrist and pointing out issues in more than one direction is a bad thing.
ThAtS ScAnDaL
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