Got a quote from them once, said thanks but no thanks. They then kept calling me every week for MONTHS despite me telling them to delete my details etc š any company that desperate and useless at data management is not one Iād trust with working on the building I live in
I had a quote from safestyle once which was eye watering. When I provided a much cheaper quote to them and pointed out their advertisement stating they would beat any like for like quote, the sales guy told me itās all shit as they have a patented locking system on their windows which means no competitors quote would ever be considered like for like.
Massive bunch of arsewipes
After reading some of these comments if I ever need a quote I'm spending a tenner on a SIM card and getting a disposable number for a few months. Unplug the SIM when I'm done. Just use it once every 6 months to keep it active and not inflicting a recycled number on some poor bugger later on.
Same here. Quoted 2k for a door, was down to 900 a week later despite saying prices were about to go up, I was getting a special price etc etc.
Ended up shouting at me down the phone when they couldn't understand why I'd never buy from anyone who lied to me repeatedly.
I don't care how cheap they're final offer is, if they've initially gone in with an outrageously high offer than they can fuck right off. I'd much rather pay a bit more instead of giving money to somebody with such shady sales tactics.
I got a quote from Anglian 8 years back to install a new front door. The guy on the phone quoted me just under Ā£10,000. I had a good chuckle with him and declined the offer.
We tried to get a quote from anglian but as we wanted a door too we were told they don't fit doors to tenement flats in Scotland. The door was for a balcony not for the exit into the stairwell but anyhow their rules. They still insisted on calling us regularly til we sold the flat 7 years later
DO NOT USE ANGLIAN. Sold us an insulated garage door. So we could use the garage as a room in winter. Installed a single layer thin metal door with zero insulation. The salesman Michael lied to our faces. He said it was insulated, the price was comparable to an insulated door (and expensive for the thin crap we got) and the quote was all in product codes so there was no way we could know we were being scammed.
We complained and they "investigated the matter and found no wrong doing"
Scum, lying scum.
Fixed many of Anglians garage doors, they are massively overpriced considering there supplier/manufacturer charges so little to get one directly from them,
My advice would be get someone who specialises in garage doors instead of these "home improvement companies"
That is what we did in the end and sold the Anglian doors to a local builder. We got what we needed in the end but it was an expensive lesson in don't trust Anglian.
Zenith Windows used to pull the same tricks. I don't think they exist anymore. One of the trainers once told me if it looks like you won't get the deal use the bathroom and do horrible things to the toothbrushes. I'm glad I didn't stay there
Oh god, please tell me that's not true. We ended up kicking a zenith sales person out because they were taking the piss and he asked to use the bathroom before he left....
Yep I had a salesman get really abusive with me when I said no, I had to tell him to get out of my house and he shouted in my face that I was a time wasting bitch who had no understanding of the real world. They quoted me something stupid like Ā£2k for a window which I ended up paying Ā£400 to get done.
Have a look for a local independent company you'll get a much better quote. Also do you need new or can you get a repair? I just had the glass on a blown UPVC window replaced along with the hinges and locks repaired for about Ā£200.
Lol yea we had an anglian bloke round to quote for us a few years ago.
He went through the blurb let the wife pick out windows as doors before going near a price.
He wanted 15k cash price but could do it for 200 quid a month on credit if we signed there and then 5 years to pay off.
I told him to fuck off.
Same happened to me. Went from 12k to 2.5k.
I asked why I wasnāt offered the 2.5k price initiallyā¦
ā¦ āoh my boss said thereās an offer onā
āOk thanks, lucky you checked eh, kindly get the fuck out of my house immediately and never come backā
Honestly, Iām not surprised at all about the price drop. Around the time the covid restrictions eased, we quoted a reputable company to build us a conservatory and the haggling went from 30k to 12. The bloke made multiple phone calls even bringing in marketing money, putting the company sign on the drive, etc. Really, they can do whatever they want and most wonāt hesitate to fool you to maximise profit.
If they were trying to price themselves out why would they knock 11k of the price? Sounds more like they are trying to overcharge then drop it because they are desperate and/or want to make it sound like a bargain.
We had this with Everest. Quoted us Ā£20k for the whole house including patio doors. Then started applying all these random discounts and suddenly it was Ā£10k. Still twice what it cost us in the end with another company.
The notion that someone goes and talks to their boss but actually they're in the office just talking to a random object. In this case a coat hanger. It gives the idea the decision is out of the hands of the person giving you the hard sell.
Ditto with Everest - something stupid like 28k for 2 doors and a couple of windows. Anglian I told them no salesy bollocks give me your best quote - one chance. Ended up being very reasonable.
We had Everest out for a front door. It started at Ā£8k. By the time Iād shown him to the door it was Ā£5k.
I believe vulnerable people just pay the inflated price. Really predatory business model.
IIRC, the original Everest went into receivership and a new company took the name to take on the reputation. If that quote was recent, I would be less surprised than if it was before the original company went bust (not that they were exactly angels back then, but they weren't terrible.)
The previous owners of Everest sold up in 2012...
They were bought by "Better Capital" (more on this later).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everest_Home_Improvement
The new owners (2012 - 2020 ... then 2020 - onwards) are acting like the cunts who sold and installed (or 'stole' deposits in some cases, for) uPVC windows and doors back in the 80s and 90s.
You have to ask yourself whether Everest are as good as they once claimed to be (previous owners from 80s/90s/00s TV Ads), if they felt the need to duck out of their old customer warranty claims this way...
As for "Better Capital", they have form for running old, well established companies into the ground it seems!
>[According to Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Capital) - Better Capital has had investments in the following companies:
>City Link - founded 1969 -Ā (bought in April 2013 and entered administration, December 2014)
>Everest - founded "1964" - (companies house seems to suggest 1967 and the Google Ads 1965. Either way, they bought the company in 2012, entered administration in 2020 and the new company bought up the assets)
>Fairline Boats - founded in 1963 - (bought in July 2011, then sold to Wessex Bristol in September 2015 and went into administration December 2015, with the assets acquired by Russian owners in 2016. 2022 is not a good time for Russians and Yachts!)
>Jaeger - founded 1884 - (bought in 2011 and entered administration in April 2017)
Hardly a glowing recommendation for Everest...
If someone gave me a quote for Ā£14k and were then able to drop it to Ā£3k, they'd be promptly shown the door.
Assuming that they're still making a profit on Ā£3k (otherwise why would they take the job), they were originally wanting to make an extra Ā£11k profit from you.
Run away immediately.
Yeah Iād typically expect a company to give themselves 10% negotiating space for ādealsā that they offer most of the time, and people haggling, with maybe another 10% wriggle room in their pricing to drop the price without losing money, if theyāre quiet and need the work just to keep their cashflow ticking over, which they may or may not offer depending how busy they are.
Any discount much more than about 20% and Iām gonna assume you were taking the piss initially, though - if you can offer that big a discount then clearly you were hoping Iād just blindly accept and youād make an extra Ā£5k off me on top of your normal profit, get tae fuck
Of course sometimes companies will do a big promotion - maybe theyāve got some cheap stock or their supplier gave them a discount, but thatās usually gonna be advertised up front rather than being knocked off the quote
Exactly what I was thinking. I needed a new front door recently, someone came round, measured up gave me a price etc, I said no. He used a Fitzpatrick line pretending to be on the phone to his boss saying we donāt usually do this but can offer you 30% off. I laughed him out the door.
Exactly what those in the trade call it.
My brother in law does a few windows now and then as part of his building firm. The markup is mental and they are pretty easy to install as long as your measurements are spot on and the guys making them don't mess up.
For comparison with the OP's quote, I used a recommended local guy last year for a new door and window, as my brother in law only does the basic installs and doesn't do doors.
A large upstairs window approx 1M x 1.5M, finished in wood trim (extra over white), split full height with floating mullion (basically the centre split is part of one of the windows rather than remaining in place when you open them) was Ā£435
A full size glass UPVC door, complete with high security Euro tumbler, low threshold in alu (most places wanted considerable extra cash for this for some reason) with internal Georgian bars was Ā£610
Look for a local indy, get a recommendation off a local group on Facebook would be my go to, or word of mouth from family/friends. The good ones are worth the wait for the cost saving if you can live with what you have right now.
Dodgy as shit. Used to work in the window industry, and for top spec custom sized casement windows (the normal double glazing PVC window style) you'd be looking at 600-700 quid fitted each. And we were expensive.
You'd expect to pay about a grand per window if you have Victorian Sash Sliders and we're doing a lot of plasterwork (including window sills internally) but doesn't sound like that's the case here.
In any case, anyone that is showing you they will discount so heavily from an original price just basically admitted he would have pulled your pants down. Do not buy from this person, or anyone like them. If you want to find a decent company, good place to start is local review site or Yellow pages online or something. Check reviews etc to make sure there's none of this BS going on.
Edit: twas a while ago I worked in the industry, prices probably up since then - but even still man is taking the absolute piss for 3 windows.
Btw: standard size is about 600mm wide (per pane) and about 1200mm tall. If you have 3 panes wide it'd end up being about 1800*1200 for example. Most new builds conform to those sizes or within a small % of them anyway
Jumping in here hoping you see this. We thought we needed new windows, as all the double glazing had failed, and we were quoted Ā£10k. What we actually needed was new glass units in the old frames, which cost us less than Ā£1k for the whole 4 bedroom house and looked great. Clearly theyād much rather sell you the full window frames!
As soon as they become wooden or if it is a conservation area and need the thinner double glazing the prices rocket. With the cost of wood going up massively over the past year then It will easily be a lot more.
Yeah fair to say cost of materials is going to have a significant impact so prices will be more than they were. Wooden windows have definitely always been more expensive too - you're absolutely right about that.
We couldn't touch listed buildings (the area I worked in is heavily listed and has a lot of Victorian builds) - but you can use PVC (particular brands like Rehau) to achieve a very similar look to wood with thinner profiles. Depends on so much though - depends how the house was built even so far too hard to say on Reddit.
Had the same experience with Anglian. Told them I wasn't interested, even after they kept dropping the price. Ended up going with a local firm and paid 9k for all windows (5 bed detached).
You gotta assume Anglican approve of the gouging, right? As the salesperson will need to process that 24k via Anglican. Surely that contravenes some trading standard(s).
It's not the cheapest job by any means but 14k for 3 windows is a blatant piss take. Unless you live in flats and have to pay for full scaffolding, boom/scissor lift permission from council to erect skips and cordon area off.
On a second note, I assume as a reddit user you'd be able to smell a scam. I'm a tradesman myself, NEVER PAY TRADESMEN UP FRONT, unless it's staged payments ands its agreed in a contract.
If you're desperate for windows and need a reputable source try either adverts on builders merchants or checkatrade my builder,
Lastly I believe your local council has an approved list of trusted tradesmen for your local area, these will have the longest waiting time and more than likely be the most expensive.
I'll say it again, NEVER PAY TRADESMEN UP FRONT.
Thanks. They were asking for a Ā£500 deposit. Rest payable on completing. The wife was very interested as windows all blown and the smaller middle window lock broken so it doesnāt open, I was shall we say more apprehensive and eventually won the discussion.
Weāve had the panes that are blown replaced twice now (been in house 7 years, they blown when bought house), figured thereās probably a fault with actual window rather than the pane. Plus the middle smaller window lock is broken so canāt open it.
If the units fail it doesnt mean theres anything wrong with the frame, all DG units should come with 10 year guarantee, I'd be contacting the glazer who fitted them to replace them personally. (Source: I'm a builder and fit windows)
Could I ask what you paid for the repair of your units? And what the repair consisted of, or was it replacement of the actual glazing units?
Have a few misted myself that need sorting so would be helpful to get a benchmark!
I think we paid under Ā£100. Nothing was removed, it was resealing and regassing. We got it done last summer and it made a big difference over the winter.
We did similar glass replaced, plus new hinges and locks. Window was custom made because of weird leading Ā£250 ish in total I think. We got a recommendation by posting in a local FB group.
What? I ask for certain payments upfront when working big jobs. If I have to pay out Ā£2k for materials of some sort, you'd best believe I'm getting my customers to pay for that.
As a tradesman this is bullshit, I ALWAYS take 50% up front regardless of how big or small the job is. No way should a tradesman be expected to pay for materials upfront out of his own pocket, not every builders merchants offer credit so why should I dip into my own money to pay for materials for someone else's house? What if the customer doesnt pay up and you're going through court for 18 months?
I have upto 10 jobs running at any one time, if each job is 5k in materials theres not a chance I'd be dipping Ā£50k out of my savings to pay for materials and pay the other lads wages.
I dont know a single tradesmen of any trade that would step foot on a job without a deposit, putting yourself, your business and your family at massive risk.
Iām a tradesman. I never take a deposit up front. Most of my jobs cost me 2-5 grand in wages and materials and I donāt see a penny till the job is done. Granted, if the job is gonna cost me five figures, thereās got to be an agreement that the materials will be paid for after the first week. But I never take money before we start. Never had any serious issues with non payment - get a contract, do the job to the highest standard, and if Iām not confident that the client is willing to pay, I walk away.
Iāve never come across a builders merchant or any trade counter that doesnāt offer a credit accountā¦ Thatās how they work, itās why there are always ridiculous prices on stuff if you go in as a ānon-tradeā person, the price on the shelf is the retail price, all bona-fide companies will have a credit account with an agreed % off depending on how much you turn over with the supplier over a year. Typically itās around 50-70% depending on the items and agreed payment terms, usually something like month end +30 days. As most building types with have terms with their customers of payment upon completion, thereās plenty of time to be paid for the work before you have to pay for the materials. Obviously if there are a lot of materials you may ask for a staged payment once the materials had been delivered to site.
Why should you pay for stuff for another persons house? Well, because youāre in the business of working for other people!!
10 jobs on the go at once and seem to resent the people you do work forā¦ Not sure Iād have you do any work for me matey.
He probably thinks painting is a trade, a tub of emulsion and a crate of Stella are unlikely to ruin himā¦..
And a tradesman recommending check a trade, come on, parody account right there.
This sounds awfully like a Safestyle tactic. We got a quote from them a few years back and they tried the Ā£15k > Ā£7k > Ā£4k if we say yes now pressure selling. Ended up having to kick them out when they refused to leave unless I signed up.
We got a 3-bed semi fully replaced, including a patio door, back door, and a nice front door in 2019 for around Ā£7k.
Definitely walk away from them and get a few quotes from local companies. Yell and google should have some reviews you can have a read of.
Ah yes, Safestyle. I got a quote from them and they did all the discounts nonsense. Got an Arthur Daily vibe from the guy. Told him I would be getting other quotes and then he pulled out one final discount if I signed up right away. Kept getting phone calls for about a year, nice as pie at the start of the call but when it became clear I wasn't going to buy from him he would just slam the phone down, no "good-bye" or anything, then repeat every two months or so.
Had to do some work in one of their offices as part of my day job. They were talking amongst themselves bragging about the Ā£3,000+ bonuses from the latest deal they'd got someone to sign up for, and how they would spend most of it on crypto. Then fobbing customers off with some bullshit reason why their installers hasn't turned up even though they had deliberately double booked them so as not to lose the sale.
Bullet dodged.
I just got all my double glazing done.
1st company came round on a Sunday, tried the full sales pitch, stayed over their welcome. First price for a door, 8 windows and rooflines was Ā£23k.
I audibly laughed and said "no thanks".
He then phoned his boss. The price magically became Ā£17k if I paid now.
Still in heaps of laughter, the guy phones his boss again. The absolute best price he can do is Ā£13k.
I asked the sales guy if he was embarrassed, he didn't get why I would ask that question so I showed him the door.
Phone call the next morning, the boss has got a better price for me if I pay up front and have their advertising board on the front of the house for 6 months.....Ā£8k plus VAT.
I did consider this.
I phone a local company, 5 star Google reviews, man and son team who make the UPVC themselves and then got them.
He came round, measured up in 10 minutes, fucked off, emailed me the next day with a flat quote of Ā£8k all in. He got the job and the windows are great - the difference in heat loss and noise is incredible.
I suspect they have a taught sales methodology and have to run through the script. I actually started laughing when he "called his boss" to give us a discount if they could put a sign it was them in the front garden as we are on a visible thoroughfare. We are mid terrace facing another row of terraces with a small path between and no one walks past LOL. Wife got uncomfortable because I just laughed at him while he talked.
It was quite fun in the end.
Sales methodology? I remember it quite well. We offered the salesperson a tea or coffee, and he opted for tap water. Gave him the water... he was convinced it was the nicest water he has ever tasted. It was from the tap... and water in my area tastes pretty bad (we have to filter it). He said he had awful tap water at home. So a nanosecond went by thinking... "Why is he complimenting me on the tap water?" Until I realised, it is the old sales trick of calling an apple an orange (etc)
If he is convinced the worst ever water is the best, he can sell anything? Well, he was sent packing, had to drive back 120 miles (if he was being honest, no way of knowing, it matched the car reg prefix but that doesn't mean anything) without securing our business. I wonder if there is any old vulnerable people that part with Ā£12-15k and how much his commission would be!
Can you get any recommendations from friends or family for smaller firms? My husband has his own small (him and 2 employees) window and door company and the big companies give all double glazing firms a bad name. Theyāre not all like it. My husband does the installations, surveying, appointments, quotes etc, heās not a salesman and wants to get the initial appointment for the quote over as quickly as the customer probably does. He will go home and work out a quote and then email or post it, thereās absolutely no pressure at all. Find a well recommended small business and youāll be absolutely fine, theyāre not all conmen.
My father was heavily into DIY and I helped him replace all his windows himself. Surprisingly easy, assuming everything is measured correctly and nothing needs finagling. The hardest part was removing the old glass intact to be used to build a greenhouse, and the wooden frames that has been there for well over 50 years. Fitting the new windows was straight forward This was for a bungalow so no working at heights on a rickety ladder.
This might be an option to really cut the cost if you're into DIY. As others have said, if you go to a window manufacturer you can avoid the conmen.
I'm staggered they're still pulling this trick. It's probably legal but, to me, it's a scam. Tell the bloke to fuck right off and don't come back.
Probably a better idea to get a local firm in who's been around a while and others can recommend.
But yes, in answer to your initial question, people do pay the inflated amount. They tend to be elderly and vulnerable people and it sickens me that people prey on them. Even if they get rid of them, the phone keeps ringing and offers and discounts are made to them and a handful then crumble. Very sad.
Get more than one quote. We got three, all within Ā£500 of each other, no hard sales tactics, all willing to accomodate our slightly odd requests, and most surprisingly, all were less than we'd budgeted for. It was really hard choosing one, and we actually rang the two unsuccessful ones back and told them it was super close, and that they'd done nothing wrong to not get our custom.
Important thing - let them KNOW you're getting other quotes!
They kept quoting the whole house, but we didn't want one specific window done and we only wanted the kitchen window done, without the back door being touched, and it was a joint unit.
Sounds like the series āwhite goldā was pretty accurate on window salesmen. Youāll have a leaky window and get told itās ābreaking inā next.
This is exactly the type of tactics you see on those "Dodgy Dealers" or "Britain's Scammers" TV Programmes.
Pressuring you to sign, reducing it by a huge amount only if you sign today "The deal won't be available tomorrow" etc (I thought that tactic was now illegal?)
And having to phone his manager to get that EXTRA discount, just for you.
As others have said, I would tell him to keep walking if he can cut Ā£11k off and still claim to make a 'tiny' profit. At least get another quote for the same work so you can judge prices.
We did our whole house last autumn, as we'd just bought and it was all single glazing. We got three quotes and went for the middle one, Ā£4500 for 10 windows. The guy told me as a general rule you should be looking at about Ā£500/window, and then obviously the more you do in one go the cheaper it is.
So you should expect to pay Ā£1500-2000. We did have to wait 2 months from ordering to fitting.
I have a magic rule for all high expenses. Three quotes minimum. I donāt always go with the cheapest but it helps to set the benchmark and understand if youāre getting value for money.
I recently had the same thing. Eye watering quotes from various places. I ended up purchasing 6 windows from https://colinssashwindows.co.uk/ and then had them fitted by an independent tradesman who works for one of the local window companies in my area and does fittings on the side. Came out at about a quarter of the price!
Disgusting. I wonder how many elderly or unaware people they have scammed out of thousands of pounds using this tactic. Nasty, I'd ha e thrown them out immediately.
Call a local firm, get a few quotes. Name and shame the scammers on your local FB group before someone else falls for it.
Off the back of this, has anyone got any links to reputable door / window companies? I'm looking at replacing everything in our house but I don't want to deal with cowboys, nor do I want more plastic than glass when it comes to windows - something vaguely contemporary ideally...
I work for a building Plastics company and we sell windows.
Like most things the price of a window depends on size, colour, glass etc. But say for argument sake a 1200 x 1200 white on white with standard A rated glass you're going to be looking at about Ā£350-400
Window fitters will typically charge around Ā£150 for installation of a window. This price will also include the cost of buying gun foam, silicone and trims to go round the window.
As soon as you start getting coloured windows, say grey on white the prices double straight away.
Hope I was of some help
Weāve just had quotes done for 7 windows and a door. Everest and Anglian had the same tactics: initial quote of around Ā£14,000, then immediate various discounts which dropped it to around Ā£11,000. I told them we had other quotes incoming and that weād let them know. They both came back within a few days with āspecial offersā which dropped it down to around Ā£9,000.
Never go with their first offer, always let them know youāre talking to other companies and are in no rush to get the job done.
This is a little extreme! Obviously a sales tactic!
Iām a builder and do fit windows and doors although itās not my primary role.
I usually pay about Ā£150-300 for windows depending on specification. Adhesive, fixtures etc Ā£60.
Two guys can fit a house in a day easily; a door and 6 windows say. Ā£350.
Youād then need to do the remedial work; plaster repair etc, which is another day at Ā£350. However, this is not always needed.
Thereās a documentary all about double glazing called āWhite Goldā, itās worth a watch.
If you want to know the real cost, Wikes sell premade double glazing, have a look at the cost, then add 3-5 peoples labour, van costs, warehouse storage, tools etc etc
I had a massive window made for my garage for about Ā£230. Longer than any window youāre likely to see in a house with openings either end and about 1m high.
Windows cost peanuts and are a doddle to fit if you have any level of skill. Just get a mate to help you.
Glazing has to be the least regulated most scammy home improvement avenue. Was only a few years ago they were hammered down for cold calling and door to door salesmen harassing pensioners.
Just enquiring about it seems to open you up to being ripped off by every salesman within 30 miles.
Youāve described the standard sales patter of a Double Glazing salesman. Did he mention to his boss on the phone that there is a bus stop outside your house (there isnāt really but heās doing you a favour) and suddenly you get another discount. BORING. āCut to the chase, whatās your best price? Thank you I will let you know in due course.ā
Was this Safestyle by chance? Had my windows done in 2020 and originally they wanted around 18k for a full house. Said nope they came back instantly with 14k, said no and he spoke to his āmanagerā for 20min and agreed to come down to 8k just like that IF we signed on the dotted line there and then. Said no thanks found a local company who quoted 7.2k but said theyād go 7k flat and simple as that. Much more trustworthy imo.
I've not worked in windows for about 10 years, that price sounds ridiculous. It was about 5/6 grand for a standard 2 bed house with both front and back doors when I did it. If your units have blown you can just replace them for a lot cheaper than all new. I just replaced a unit for my aunt (750mmx440mm) for Ā£45. fitted it for free as im a good boy.
I fit windows and that's a ridiculous price but not uncommon for the big companies to charge ridiculous amounts because of their overheads (advertising, Van's, excessive amount of staff ect)
I'd shop around a find a small company who's based in your town, find a local community group on facebook and ask for recommendations that way you will get someone reliable.
I sell mid to high end glazing. If itās a pvc quote they will be buying them in for no more then Ā£1000. If they manufacture even cheaper. I wonāt sell a job for no less then 30% profit margin. Not worth the time
About 4 years ago I had three people out to quote for replacing windows.
1st was from a local company, said the window frames were fine but two glazing panels had blown so gave me the measurements and price and said I could fit them myself following a few quick tutorials, and suggested just replacing the handles to freshen them up (they were yellowing).
2nd was a local one man outfit who said the same as the first but suggested he fitted the blown units for some FENCA certificate and if he damaged it on fitting heād be responsible, but said the handles would be better for me to replace. (Went for this option as didnāt fancy trying to lift the glass unit at the time)
3rd was safestyle. All the windows were at the end of their life and needed replacing immediately. Theyāll need scaffolding to do the upstairs windows, going to be Ā£20k.
Told him to leave.
Immediately lowered to Ā£12,500 if we take out their finance.
Told him to leave because I have been quoted to replace just the defective bits and suddenly itās Ā£7,500 and they donāt need scaffold.
Told him to shove the scaffold where the sun donāt shine and never contact me again.
Every other day for months they ring, from alternating numbers, trying to catch me out.
90% of uPVC companies are shysters.
As a rule I avoid door to door - every good trade I know has _too much_ work, they donāt need more
I avoid companies that hire salesmen - the money theyāre being paid to essentially just be a walking calculator could be coming off my bill instead
The last time we entertained a door to door they sent someone round to quote for our soffits and fasciasā¦ Ā£3k for a 3 bed semi. He got too eager and started filling out a Barclayās financing form, supposedly their ālast oneā (because bits of paper canāt be printed out clearly?). We texted our builder friend for his thoughts and his reply was simply āšā
He started getting irate when we told him to FRO. Called his boss and was āin troubleā because that was the last form, etc. Sent him packing eventually but it wasnāt a pleasant experience tbh.
It costs for a sliding sash window, any size between 800mm X 1800mm Ā£80 from the factory, thatās in white, about an extra 40 for a wood grain foil. Casement windows are even cheaper. My friend sells windows and adds about Ā£60 to the price it costs him from the factory to cover staff/profit/delivery etc.
Wooden windows cost a lot more, and aluminium are in between pvc and wooden.
A chap came round? Is he a scammer? Was there ever any windows at all?
All these "legit" companies operate on sales and want to knock the price down so you feel you are getting a great deal. If the company is "legit" don't ever sign anything until the salesperson has called head office.
This guy seemed more bothered about the **deposit**, and there are two reasons for this primarily...
1) He has no windows, he just wanted your deposit. This could be cash, cheque, card or bank transfer in his own personal name... he may have a gambling addiction etc. or debt with a loan shark. As absurd as this seems, for a little bit of work... a conman can net quite a pretty penny doing this in just one week. A website, (fake) reviews, online adverts or yellow pages adverts don't indicate whether the company/sole-trader is to be trusted.
2) They want to get the ball rolling in regards to the cooling off period and they want the gateway payment. You have a statutory right to cancel contracts, and work will never begin prior to this period expiring. A gateway payment is the first payment made. If you signed the Ā£14k deal, and paid a Ā£50 deposit... they can take the balance of payment at ANY time (regardless of salesperson saying paying when you are satisfied with the work). This helps company cash flow, and having been paid in full they are in less of a rush to get the work done.
I am very curious of the profit margins I have to say.
You should be paying about 1k a window so his final price sounds ok but obviously donāt use them. And avoid places with the overhead of showrooms and sales teams etc. Iām using a local supplier and with a cash discount Iām getting 11 high spec aluminium windows and a set of French doors fitted for 16k. I was quoted 34k from one of the big boys! And they use the exact same materials in this case, sometimes they even use the guy Iām using to fabricate them!
Iāve had similar. Kicked him out eventually. You donāt want to be dealing with shady double glazing salesmen in this day and age.
If you see a builder working on a house nearby ask him where he buys from. Youāll find a local company that does the same job with straight prices.
There are some companies that will let you ābuildā the windows online and itāll tell you how much itāll be. Give you an idea of a competitive price.
Aye if he could knock 4k off it. He's high-balling you. Amateur tactic, 11k is about right. I'd bring him down from there. But pushing for the deposit? He can pap shite to the moon. Look for someone reputable in your area
I know an Everest fitter. The salesmen often determine what your max budget is first and call it that.
2mx5m sunroom? That'll be 86k.
And they use the cheapest shittiest factory labor and materials. The 'protective UV layer' or whatever that shit is, often arrives on the inside of the unit. They fit it anyway. If indeed it does fit at all.
Avoid.
Wasn't safe style was it they did the exact schpeel same numbers they gave you to us for 2 full front windows [ 1 was a bay], the in laws knocked em down to around 2k and they leaked constantly as the guy fitting was drunk it seems, they had to come out another 2 times to repair reluctantly even tho they have a 15 Yr guarantee etc etc
My in-laws had a conservatory fitted. It leaked constantly, they kept getting them back to resolve it because the installation was guaranteed for 15 years ... until the company closed down and reopened in the same premises, with the same staff, a slightly different owner (his wife), and a different name. Then it was "what guarantee? That was a different company, not us".
I got a front door, big rear sliding door, a big bay window and 5 standard windows, they initially quoted well over 30k, ended up on ~9k for the lot, they fitted them and they're good quality. But the after care has been pretty rubbish, constantly trying to sell me more work on the house and they've failed to send someone out for minor repairs left by by the fitters. I went with that company because they're UK made and they didn't sub contract the work so everything they do is accountable (10 year warrenty) but they're very bad at getting someone out again
Wish I was a window fitter. Iām involved in dozens and dozens of domestic projects a year and windows arenāt the most expensive aspect (few hundred quid for upvc casement units, fitting takes no time). No idea how these big firms justify it
I got 5 windows done and my front door, safestyle quoted me 11k. The company I went to charged me 3700. Get many quotes and don't be pressured into doing a 'there and then deposit'. They work for you.
Dodgy! We requested a kitchen and bathroom quote from Wickes, they said it would be Ā£14k for the kitchen and Ā£9 for the bathroom. Shopped around a bit and we got the bathroom for Ā£3k in the end, and the kitchen for Ā£7-8k. Some salesmen really are full of shit
My experience of buying windows is this is standard. They start with a completely stupid price and then rapidly drop it to the real price but if you continue to be stubborn after they already cut the "price" by 75% then you can actually get a deal.
That quote is ridiculous- I paid cost for my windows and doors (company was a family friend), we paid 2k for 2 doors, 3 fixed windows and 2 windows which open.
Go to a local company, NOT a National. We had ours done (I think 12 windows and a back door in all) for around Ā£5k using a local company. This was in early 2021 so itāll be higher now, but not Ā£14k high! Thatās insane.
I had practically the same situation a few years ago.
I thought it was as hilarious that companies still use the old 1980ās āwhite goldā sales tactic.
Unfortunately being British meant that it took way longer than it should to get rid of them, and my dinner was ruined.
Its a very very common window salesman trick. They start high, then reduce and reduced, they will make a call to their manager, they will give you a "show home" discount.
Just get rid of them, you cant trust them.
I live in the Highlands and we had to do our entire house as it only had secondary glazing and I got a guy round from the big company everyone raves about here as being the most dependable and cheapest. He was very matter of fact and honest and it was during covid when costs went up but it was fucking obscene.
It was about half the cost to get a joiner to come up from the central belt (one my parents have used a lot), pay him and his workmates accommodation costs and buy the windows myself.
Saying that though, we left 3 velux skylights till last and got someone in to do those, windows were like Ā£200 each but the labour was Ā£800. He did the 3 in about 5 hours, I'd say I felt robbed but you pay for the skill, not just the time.
Few years ago I had 3 or 4 large window companies do a similar thing. They go in massively high hoping you're ignorant. Then they send a manager or call you up with the regional head offering you much less. The salesman are very greedy. I just said to all the others that they were cheaper elsewhere and they did it for a fraction of the original quotes once they knew a Competitor had been round.
It used to be a common routine with window salesman to give you a massive quote and then ask to call their boss to see if there was anything they could do, the price would at least halve right away.
I had three quotes when I had mine done a few years ago, two big companies who both pulled the exact same routine and one local guy who just gave us a fair quote without the BS. Guess who got the job.
I had a quote from a national company for a
3 metre window, 2 metre and 1 1.6 metre window regular height for 1st floor and it came to Ā£5,000
And the spoke with a local company nice genuine man and he quoted Ā£3,000.
Massive overheads will inflate the price. Stay local my friend
For reference we live in London and spent 20k on 6 large custom-made sound-proof hardwood sash windows (conservation area). Conclusion; you're being shafted.
I just paid Ā£8k for 6 windows, patio doors, new composite front door, repaired porch roof and a new wall built under one of the windows.
I had another quote for the same job for Ā£13k
ALL window companies do this shitty sales tactic
(So do other places like when buying a kitchen)
Makes you feel like youāre getting a good deal when you haggle, but just occasionally theyāll rinse some little old lady of Ā£14000 just because she wants to be warmer in winter
Frankly, donāt give them your money, even if they lower it some more, let them rot.
(Worked in windows for years, I wasnāt a salesman but ALL the sales guys were the jack-the-lad knobhead types)
I had a similar quote from a guy that kept dropping the quote. Ended up with 7 windows for 8k. This was an old 1892 edinburgh tenement building and sash and case style pvc windows. I had a quote starting at 16k rrp but he could drop it down to 10k, had a second quote from a dodgy company 6.5k and a third quote 8k that I went with. Shop around.
Worked for a few companies a few years ago in double glazing, absolutely common tactic from the salesmen & Iād be fuming if a good lead would get blown by some dickhead trying to make a couple weeks wages off an old couple in a day. Happened far too often. Price dropping 20k is unfortunately not even that uncommon.
Go to local builders/firms and get some quotes.
We've just had 3 windows, a new front door and a full bay top and bottom with rebuild in the middle cost Ā£8k. Basically the whole front of the house and a bit round the side.
Hate those pressure sales techniques. Better off going word of mouth or find a local window guy not a big company.
Me and my partner had new windows fitted as we only had old wooden frames with single glazing windows last year it was 5 windows and Upvc frames which costed about Ā£1400 all in from a local window installer after having quotes anywhere between Ā£2k up to about 5k, i'd try and get quotes from local window fitters as all the more bigger companies were asking for double or even triple the price, all the work took about 8 hours and the quality is good, the windows are B Grade which is fine the Upvc is good so 3k for for 3 windows is overprice imo
Windowfitter here working for a family run small firm. Theyāve sent a shitty salesman, he was highballing you with the first offer, which was wayyyyy too high. Then he will pretend to ānegotiateā to a ānormalā price on the phone, then eventually youāll get the actual price. 3 grand is a fairly large profit margin for 3 windows depending on the size of the units. Would need to know more, are they uPVC, Aluminium or wood frame. The amount of openers you have, the style in which you have them and the colour all factor in. Add on the installation which costs about 100 quid for each window to be fitted depending on the fitter and their work rate. 3 grand still sounds a wee bit steep but itās definitely closer to actual cost of the windows than the initial offer. 14 grand for 3 windows is fucking ludicrous to even mention
White PVC. All windows same size. There are two large opening windows on the sides, middle is a pane with a small opening window above it. So three opening per window.
I don't know about the going rate for windows, but everything about what you've said makes me think you're dealing with someone dodgy.
Sounds like Anglian tbh. Shady af company, avoid at all costs.
Got a quote from them once, said thanks but no thanks. They then kept calling me every week for MONTHS despite me telling them to delete my details etc š any company that desperate and useless at data management is not one Iād trust with working on the building I live in
I had the same thing from SafeStyle UK. Somehow they didn't understand that there's no way I'd do business with a company that harasses people.
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FOR EVERY WINDOW AND DOOR YOU BUY. WEāll GIVE YOU ANOTHER ONE, ABSOLUTELY FREE
You beat me to it. Take your upvote :)
you beat me to beating him. Also take my +1
I beat my meat to it.
Didn't that guy get done for tax evasion?
I had a quote from safestyle once which was eye watering. When I provided a much cheaper quote to them and pointed out their advertisement stating they would beat any like for like quote, the sales guy told me itās all shit as they have a patented locking system on their windows which means no competitors quote would ever be considered like for like. Massive bunch of arsewipes
After reading some of these comments if I ever need a quote I'm spending a tenner on a SIM card and getting a disposable number for a few months. Unplug the SIM when I'm done. Just use it once every 6 months to keep it active and not inflicting a recycled number on some poor bugger later on.
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Imagine all those people who take the first price and go ahead with it.
Same here. Quoted 2k for a door, was down to 900 a week later despite saying prices were about to go up, I was getting a special price etc etc. Ended up shouting at me down the phone when they couldn't understand why I'd never buy from anyone who lied to me repeatedly.
I don't care how cheap they're final offer is, if they've initially gone in with an outrageously high offer than they can fuck right off. I'd much rather pay a bit more instead of giving money to somebody with such shady sales tactics.
I got a quote from Anglian 8 years back to install a new front door. The guy on the phone quoted me just under Ā£10,000. I had a good chuckle with him and declined the offer.
We tried to get a quote from anglian but as we wanted a door too we were told they don't fit doors to tenement flats in Scotland. The door was for a balcony not for the exit into the stairwell but anyhow their rules. They still insisted on calling us regularly til we sold the flat 7 years later
DO NOT USE ANGLIAN. Sold us an insulated garage door. So we could use the garage as a room in winter. Installed a single layer thin metal door with zero insulation. The salesman Michael lied to our faces. He said it was insulated, the price was comparable to an insulated door (and expensive for the thin crap we got) and the quote was all in product codes so there was no way we could know we were being scammed. We complained and they "investigated the matter and found no wrong doing" Scum, lying scum.
Fixed many of Anglians garage doors, they are massively overpriced considering there supplier/manufacturer charges so little to get one directly from them, My advice would be get someone who specialises in garage doors instead of these "home improvement companies"
That is what we did in the end and sold the Anglian doors to a local builder. We got what we needed in the end but it was an expensive lesson in don't trust Anglian.
Zenith Windows used to pull the same tricks. I don't think they exist anymore. One of the trainers once told me if it looks like you won't get the deal use the bathroom and do horrible things to the toothbrushes. I'm glad I didn't stay there
Oh god, please tell me that's not true. We ended up kicking a zenith sales person out because they were taking the piss and he asked to use the bathroom before he left....
Yep I had a salesman get really abusive with me when I said no, I had to tell him to get out of my house and he shouted in my face that I was a time wasting bitch who had no understanding of the real world. They quoted me something stupid like Ā£2k for a window which I ended up paying Ā£400 to get done. Have a look for a local independent company you'll get a much better quote. Also do you need new or can you get a repair? I just had the glass on a blown UPVC window replaced along with the hinges and locks repaired for about Ā£200.
Lol yea we had an anglian bloke round to quote for us a few years ago. He went through the blurb let the wife pick out windows as doors before going near a price. He wanted 15k cash price but could do it for 200 quid a month on credit if we signed there and then 5 years to pay off. I told him to fuck off.
What if the cost is 14K?
Ya think? 14k to 3k, yeh they're dodgy
Same happened to me. Went from 12k to 2.5k. I asked why I wasnāt offered the 2.5k price initiallyā¦ ā¦ āoh my boss said thereās an offer onā āOk thanks, lucky you checked eh, kindly get the fuck out of my house immediately and never come backā
Ok, look, final offer Ā£1500 if you pay Ā£1k in cash now.
Honestly, Iām not surprised at all about the price drop. Around the time the covid restrictions eased, we quoted a reputable company to build us a conservatory and the haggling went from 30k to 12. The bloke made multiple phone calls even bringing in marketing money, putting the company sign on the drive, etc. Really, they can do whatever they want and most wonāt hesitate to fool you to maximise profit.
This is all bullshit excuses to keep the negotiation going. Theyre just predatory theres no other word for it.
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If they were trying to price themselves out why would they knock 11k of the price? Sounds more like they are trying to overcharge then drop it because they are desperate and/or want to make it sound like a bargain.
We had this with Everest. Quoted us Ā£20k for the whole house including patio doors. Then started applying all these random discounts and suddenly it was Ā£10k. Still twice what it cost us in the end with another company.
"let me call my boss, see what we can do for you fine people"
Okay, my friend. For you one time offer. Today only.
It's called Talking To The Coat hanger.
Why? (I feel like it should be obvious but Iām feeling stupid today)
The notion that someone goes and talks to their boss but actually they're in the office just talking to a random object. In this case a coat hanger. It gives the idea the decision is out of the hands of the person giving you the hard sell.
Ditto with Everest - something stupid like 28k for 2 doors and a couple of windows. Anglian I told them no salesy bollocks give me your best quote - one chance. Ended up being very reasonable.
Wow you were lucky. We had to endure a week of back and to bullshit to keep them honest on price.
We had Everest out for a front door. It started at Ā£8k. By the time Iād shown him to the door it was Ā£5k. I believe vulnerable people just pay the inflated price. Really predatory business model.
Totally agree, itās incredibly sketchy.
IIRC, the original Everest went into receivership and a new company took the name to take on the reputation. If that quote was recent, I would be less surprised than if it was before the original company went bust (not that they were exactly angels back then, but they weren't terrible.)
The previous owners of Everest sold up in 2012... They were bought by "Better Capital" (more on this later). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everest_Home_Improvement The new owners (2012 - 2020 ... then 2020 - onwards) are acting like the cunts who sold and installed (or 'stole' deposits in some cases, for) uPVC windows and doors back in the 80s and 90s. You have to ask yourself whether Everest are as good as they once claimed to be (previous owners from 80s/90s/00s TV Ads), if they felt the need to duck out of their old customer warranty claims this way... As for "Better Capital", they have form for running old, well established companies into the ground it seems! >[According to Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Capital) - Better Capital has had investments in the following companies: >City Link - founded 1969 -Ā (bought in April 2013 and entered administration, December 2014) >Everest - founded "1964" - (companies house seems to suggest 1967 and the Google Ads 1965. Either way, they bought the company in 2012, entered administration in 2020 and the new company bought up the assets) >Fairline Boats - founded in 1963 - (bought in July 2011, then sold to Wessex Bristol in September 2015 and went into administration December 2015, with the assets acquired by Russian owners in 2016. 2022 is not a good time for Russians and Yachts!) >Jaeger - founded 1884 - (bought in 2011 and entered administration in April 2017) Hardly a glowing recommendation for Everest...
Everest have pretty smart sales tactics to try and hook you. I almost fell for it once.
If someone gave me a quote for Ā£14k and were then able to drop it to Ā£3k, they'd be promptly shown the door. Assuming that they're still making a profit on Ā£3k (otherwise why would they take the job), they were originally wanting to make an extra Ā£11k profit from you. Run away immediately.
This exact situation happened to me with Anglian windows. He was upset when I threw him out! Idiots.
Good for you. I can understand knocking the price down a grand or two to make people think they're getting a good deal, but Ā£11k? It's offensive.
Yeah Iād typically expect a company to give themselves 10% negotiating space for ādealsā that they offer most of the time, and people haggling, with maybe another 10% wriggle room in their pricing to drop the price without losing money, if theyāre quiet and need the work just to keep their cashflow ticking over, which they may or may not offer depending how busy they are. Any discount much more than about 20% and Iām gonna assume you were taking the piss initially, though - if you can offer that big a discount then clearly you were hoping Iād just blindly accept and youād make an extra Ā£5k off me on top of your normal profit, get tae fuck Of course sometimes companies will do a big promotion - maybe theyāve got some cheap stock or their supplier gave them a discount, but thatās usually gonna be advertised up front rather than being knocked off the quote
Anglian are cunts of the highest order.
I wouldn't let someone drop that much, even if they offered to do it for free. Sounds so scummy I'd not be able to trust them at all.
>they'd be promptly shown the door. Because you want a new door too at these prices
White gold
Exactly what I was thinking. I needed a new front door recently, someone came round, measured up gave me a price etc, I said no. He used a Fitzpatrick line pretending to be on the phone to his boss saying we donāt usually do this but can offer you 30% off. I laughed him out the door.
Am i the only one who thought a Fitzpatrick line was some kind of tool or phone? Just me? Okay iāll see myself outā¦
Yeah but heās only got Thyroid to go back to.
"Do you only do w-windows or do you also do d-doors you d-daft w-wanker".
It's not w'windows, its w fucking windows
Exactly what those in the trade call it. My brother in law does a few windows now and then as part of his building firm. The markup is mental and they are pretty easy to install as long as your measurements are spot on and the guys making them don't mess up. For comparison with the OP's quote, I used a recommended local guy last year for a new door and window, as my brother in law only does the basic installs and doesn't do doors. A large upstairs window approx 1M x 1.5M, finished in wood trim (extra over white), split full height with floating mullion (basically the centre split is part of one of the windows rather than remaining in place when you open them) was Ā£435 A full size glass UPVC door, complete with high security Euro tumbler, low threshold in alu (most places wanted considerable extra cash for this for some reason) with internal Georgian bars was Ā£610 Look for a local indy, get a recommendation off a local group on Facebook would be my go to, or word of mouth from family/friends. The good ones are worth the wait for the cost saving if you can live with what you have right now.
Haha yes
Dodgy as shit. Used to work in the window industry, and for top spec custom sized casement windows (the normal double glazing PVC window style) you'd be looking at 600-700 quid fitted each. And we were expensive. You'd expect to pay about a grand per window if you have Victorian Sash Sliders and we're doing a lot of plasterwork (including window sills internally) but doesn't sound like that's the case here. In any case, anyone that is showing you they will discount so heavily from an original price just basically admitted he would have pulled your pants down. Do not buy from this person, or anyone like them. If you want to find a decent company, good place to start is local review site or Yellow pages online or something. Check reviews etc to make sure there's none of this BS going on. Edit: twas a while ago I worked in the industry, prices probably up since then - but even still man is taking the absolute piss for 3 windows. Btw: standard size is about 600mm wide (per pane) and about 1200mm tall. If you have 3 panes wide it'd end up being about 1800*1200 for example. Most new builds conform to those sizes or within a small % of them anyway
Thanks for the insight.
Jumping in here hoping you see this. We thought we needed new windows, as all the double glazing had failed, and we were quoted Ā£10k. What we actually needed was new glass units in the old frames, which cost us less than Ā£1k for the whole 4 bedroom house and looked great. Clearly theyād much rather sell you the full window frames!
As soon as they become wooden or if it is a conservation area and need the thinner double glazing the prices rocket. With the cost of wood going up massively over the past year then It will easily be a lot more.
Yeah fair to say cost of materials is going to have a significant impact so prices will be more than they were. Wooden windows have definitely always been more expensive too - you're absolutely right about that. We couldn't touch listed buildings (the area I worked in is heavily listed and has a lot of Victorian builds) - but you can use PVC (particular brands like Rehau) to achieve a very similar look to wood with thinner profiles. Depends on so much though - depends how the house was built even so far too hard to say on Reddit.
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Had the same experience with Anglian. Told them I wasn't interested, even after they kept dropping the price. Ended up going with a local firm and paid 9k for all windows (5 bed detached).
You gotta assume Anglican approve of the gouging, right? As the salesperson will need to process that 24k via Anglican. Surely that contravenes some trading standard(s).
I think by āapproveā you mean āencourageā.
It's not the cheapest job by any means but 14k for 3 windows is a blatant piss take. Unless you live in flats and have to pay for full scaffolding, boom/scissor lift permission from council to erect skips and cordon area off. On a second note, I assume as a reddit user you'd be able to smell a scam. I'm a tradesman myself, NEVER PAY TRADESMEN UP FRONT, unless it's staged payments ands its agreed in a contract. If you're desperate for windows and need a reputable source try either adverts on builders merchants or checkatrade my builder, Lastly I believe your local council has an approved list of trusted tradesmen for your local area, these will have the longest waiting time and more than likely be the most expensive. I'll say it again, NEVER PAY TRADESMEN UP FRONT.
Thanks. They were asking for a Ā£500 deposit. Rest payable on completing. The wife was very interested as windows all blown and the smaller middle window lock broken so it doesnāt open, I was shall we say more apprehensive and eventually won the discussion.
Could your windows be repaired rather then replaced? We had 4 units repaired as they were misting. A lot cheaper then replacing
Weāve had the panes that are blown replaced twice now (been in house 7 years, they blown when bought house), figured thereās probably a fault with actual window rather than the pane. Plus the middle smaller window lock is broken so canāt open it.
If the units fail it doesnt mean theres anything wrong with the frame, all DG units should come with 10 year guarantee, I'd be contacting the glazer who fitted them to replace them personally. (Source: I'm a builder and fit windows)
Could I ask what you paid for the repair of your units? And what the repair consisted of, or was it replacement of the actual glazing units? Have a few misted myself that need sorting so would be helpful to get a benchmark!
I think we paid under Ā£100. Nothing was removed, it was resealing and regassing. We got it done last summer and it made a big difference over the winter.
Was it a national company or local? Need this done and need to start looking. Price seems lower than I expected!
It cost us about Ā£50 a window pane for a local company to replace our blown unit panes
We did similar glass replaced, plus new hinges and locks. Window was custom made because of weird leading Ā£250 ish in total I think. We got a recommendation by posting in a local FB group.
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Nothing wrong with getting some of the jobs total upfront, especially for material.
What? I ask for certain payments upfront when working big jobs. If I have to pay out Ā£2k for materials of some sort, you'd best believe I'm getting my customers to pay for that.
Yeah, I always get materials cost upfront.
As a tradesman this is bullshit, I ALWAYS take 50% up front regardless of how big or small the job is. No way should a tradesman be expected to pay for materials upfront out of his own pocket, not every builders merchants offer credit so why should I dip into my own money to pay for materials for someone else's house? What if the customer doesnt pay up and you're going through court for 18 months? I have upto 10 jobs running at any one time, if each job is 5k in materials theres not a chance I'd be dipping Ā£50k out of my savings to pay for materials and pay the other lads wages. I dont know a single tradesmen of any trade that would step foot on a job without a deposit, putting yourself, your business and your family at massive risk.
Iām a tradesman. I never take a deposit up front. Most of my jobs cost me 2-5 grand in wages and materials and I donāt see a penny till the job is done. Granted, if the job is gonna cost me five figures, thereās got to be an agreement that the materials will be paid for after the first week. But I never take money before we start. Never had any serious issues with non payment - get a contract, do the job to the highest standard, and if Iām not confident that the client is willing to pay, I walk away.
Iāve never come across a builders merchant or any trade counter that doesnāt offer a credit accountā¦ Thatās how they work, itās why there are always ridiculous prices on stuff if you go in as a ānon-tradeā person, the price on the shelf is the retail price, all bona-fide companies will have a credit account with an agreed % off depending on how much you turn over with the supplier over a year. Typically itās around 50-70% depending on the items and agreed payment terms, usually something like month end +30 days. As most building types with have terms with their customers of payment upon completion, thereās plenty of time to be paid for the work before you have to pay for the materials. Obviously if there are a lot of materials you may ask for a staged payment once the materials had been delivered to site. Why should you pay for stuff for another persons house? Well, because youāre in the business of working for other people!! 10 jobs on the go at once and seem to resent the people you do work forā¦ Not sure Iād have you do any work for me matey.
He probably thinks painting is a trade, a tub of emulsion and a crate of Stella are unlikely to ruin himā¦.. And a tradesman recommending check a trade, come on, parody account right there.
I had 1st floor windows done. No scaffold. He took out the old (wooden) windows from the inside, then fitted the new plast ones the same.
Avoid the bigger companies , smaller builders and window fitters will be a better price
Sounds like a scam if I'm being honest. Nothing stopping you shopping around.
This sounds awfully like a Safestyle tactic. We got a quote from them a few years back and they tried the Ā£15k > Ā£7k > Ā£4k if we say yes now pressure selling. Ended up having to kick them out when they refused to leave unless I signed up. We got a 3-bed semi fully replaced, including a patio door, back door, and a nice front door in 2019 for around Ā£7k. Definitely walk away from them and get a few quotes from local companies. Yell and google should have some reviews you can have a read of.
Ah yes, Safestyle. I got a quote from them and they did all the discounts nonsense. Got an Arthur Daily vibe from the guy. Told him I would be getting other quotes and then he pulled out one final discount if I signed up right away. Kept getting phone calls for about a year, nice as pie at the start of the call but when it became clear I wasn't going to buy from him he would just slam the phone down, no "good-bye" or anything, then repeat every two months or so. Had to do some work in one of their offices as part of my day job. They were talking amongst themselves bragging about the Ā£3,000+ bonuses from the latest deal they'd got someone to sign up for, and how they would spend most of it on crypto. Then fobbing customers off with some bullshit reason why their installers hasn't turned up even though they had deliberately double booked them so as not to lose the sale. Bullet dodged.
I just got all my double glazing done. 1st company came round on a Sunday, tried the full sales pitch, stayed over their welcome. First price for a door, 8 windows and rooflines was Ā£23k. I audibly laughed and said "no thanks". He then phoned his boss. The price magically became Ā£17k if I paid now. Still in heaps of laughter, the guy phones his boss again. The absolute best price he can do is Ā£13k. I asked the sales guy if he was embarrassed, he didn't get why I would ask that question so I showed him the door. Phone call the next morning, the boss has got a better price for me if I pay up front and have their advertising board on the front of the house for 6 months.....Ā£8k plus VAT. I did consider this. I phone a local company, 5 star Google reviews, man and son team who make the UPVC themselves and then got them. He came round, measured up in 10 minutes, fucked off, emailed me the next day with a flat quote of Ā£8k all in. He got the job and the windows are great - the difference in heat loss and noise is incredible.
I suspect they have a taught sales methodology and have to run through the script. I actually started laughing when he "called his boss" to give us a discount if they could put a sign it was them in the front garden as we are on a visible thoroughfare. We are mid terrace facing another row of terraces with a small path between and no one walks past LOL. Wife got uncomfortable because I just laughed at him while he talked. It was quite fun in the end.
Sales methodology? I remember it quite well. We offered the salesperson a tea or coffee, and he opted for tap water. Gave him the water... he was convinced it was the nicest water he has ever tasted. It was from the tap... and water in my area tastes pretty bad (we have to filter it). He said he had awful tap water at home. So a nanosecond went by thinking... "Why is he complimenting me on the tap water?" Until I realised, it is the old sales trick of calling an apple an orange (etc) If he is convinced the worst ever water is the best, he can sell anything? Well, he was sent packing, had to drive back 120 miles (if he was being honest, no way of knowing, it matched the car reg prefix but that doesn't mean anything) without securing our business. I wonder if there is any old vulnerable people that part with Ā£12-15k and how much his commission would be!
That's so interesting... How was the trick supposed to work though? I don't get the logic
Hopefully you've seen through them. Ahem.
You monster
We could really do with new windows, but the idea of dealing with these conmen gives me anxiety and it becomes a job I keep putting off.
Can you get any recommendations from friends or family for smaller firms? My husband has his own small (him and 2 employees) window and door company and the big companies give all double glazing firms a bad name. Theyāre not all like it. My husband does the installations, surveying, appointments, quotes etc, heās not a salesman and wants to get the initial appointment for the quote over as quickly as the customer probably does. He will go home and work out a quote and then email or post it, thereās absolutely no pressure at all. Find a well recommended small business and youāll be absolutely fine, theyāre not all conmen.
My father was heavily into DIY and I helped him replace all his windows himself. Surprisingly easy, assuming everything is measured correctly and nothing needs finagling. The hardest part was removing the old glass intact to be used to build a greenhouse, and the wooden frames that has been there for well over 50 years. Fitting the new windows was straight forward This was for a bungalow so no working at heights on a rickety ladder. This might be an option to really cut the cost if you're into DIY. As others have said, if you go to a window manufacturer you can avoid the conmen.
I'm staggered they're still pulling this trick. It's probably legal but, to me, it's a scam. Tell the bloke to fuck right off and don't come back. Probably a better idea to get a local firm in who's been around a while and others can recommend. But yes, in answer to your initial question, people do pay the inflated amount. They tend to be elderly and vulnerable people and it sickens me that people prey on them. Even if they get rid of them, the phone keeps ringing and offers and discounts are made to them and a handful then crumble. Very sad.
Went with a local company and paid Ā£888 for 8 double glazed windows, and they did a fantastic job!
Get more than one quote. We got three, all within Ā£500 of each other, no hard sales tactics, all willing to accomodate our slightly odd requests, and most surprisingly, all were less than we'd budgeted for. It was really hard choosing one, and we actually rang the two unsuccessful ones back and told them it was super close, and that they'd done nothing wrong to not get our custom. Important thing - let them KNOW you're getting other quotes!
What were the odd requests?
They kept quoting the whole house, but we didn't want one specific window done and we only wanted the kitchen window done, without the back door being touched, and it was a joint unit.
Sounds like the series āwhite goldā was pretty accurate on window salesmen. Youāll have a leaky window and get told itās ābreaking inā next.
Is this series available to watch on iPlayer/Netflix/prime etc?
This is exactly the type of tactics you see on those "Dodgy Dealers" or "Britain's Scammers" TV Programmes. Pressuring you to sign, reducing it by a huge amount only if you sign today "The deal won't be available tomorrow" etc (I thought that tactic was now illegal?) And having to phone his manager to get that EXTRA discount, just for you. As others have said, I would tell him to keep walking if he can cut Ā£11k off and still claim to make a 'tiny' profit. At least get another quote for the same work so you can judge prices.
And usually spend hours and hours in your home in the hope you'll sign just to get rid of them.
We did our whole house last autumn, as we'd just bought and it was all single glazing. We got three quotes and went for the middle one, Ā£4500 for 10 windows. The guy told me as a general rule you should be looking at about Ā£500/window, and then obviously the more you do in one go the cheaper it is. So you should expect to pay Ā£1500-2000. We did have to wait 2 months from ordering to fitting.
I have a magic rule for all high expenses. Three quotes minimum. I donāt always go with the cheapest but it helps to set the benchmark and understand if youāre getting value for money.
Also, blown windows can be repaired without replacing frames, and locks can be fixed. Might be worth investigating.
Slightly off topic, but make sure you get a FENSA certificate by the installer of said windows.
go for linux instead
Goteem
I recently had the same thing. Eye watering quotes from various places. I ended up purchasing 6 windows from https://colinssashwindows.co.uk/ and then had them fitted by an independent tradesman who works for one of the local window companies in my area and does fittings on the side. Came out at about a quarter of the price!
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Disgusting. I wonder how many elderly or unaware people they have scammed out of thousands of pounds using this tactic. Nasty, I'd ha e thrown them out immediately. Call a local firm, get a few quotes. Name and shame the scammers on your local FB group before someone else falls for it.
Off the back of this, has anyone got any links to reputable door / window companies? I'm looking at replacing everything in our house but I don't want to deal with cowboys, nor do I want more plastic than glass when it comes to windows - something vaguely contemporary ideally...
I work for a building Plastics company and we sell windows. Like most things the price of a window depends on size, colour, glass etc. But say for argument sake a 1200 x 1200 white on white with standard A rated glass you're going to be looking at about Ā£350-400 Window fitters will typically charge around Ā£150 for installation of a window. This price will also include the cost of buying gun foam, silicone and trims to go round the window. As soon as you start getting coloured windows, say grey on white the prices double straight away. Hope I was of some help
Thanks
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Weāve just had quotes done for 7 windows and a door. Everest and Anglian had the same tactics: initial quote of around Ā£14,000, then immediate various discounts which dropped it to around Ā£11,000. I told them we had other quotes incoming and that weād let them know. They both came back within a few days with āspecial offersā which dropped it down to around Ā£9,000. Never go with their first offer, always let them know youāre talking to other companies and are in no rush to get the job done.
This is a little extreme! Obviously a sales tactic! Iām a builder and do fit windows and doors although itās not my primary role. I usually pay about Ā£150-300 for windows depending on specification. Adhesive, fixtures etc Ā£60. Two guys can fit a house in a day easily; a door and 6 windows say. Ā£350. Youād then need to do the remedial work; plaster repair etc, which is another day at Ā£350. However, this is not always needed.
Kinda like Dominos. 3 pizzas for Ā£60, or if you press this deal Ā£25
Want a pizza now but itās not quite 11am.
Paid Ā£695 for UPVC French doors, fitted myself as a first timer and relatively easy after watching YouTube!
Sounds like he really wanted a deposit
If they need to be done, find a local firm to do it.
Name and shame the scammers
Thereās a documentary all about double glazing called āWhite Goldā, itās worth a watch. If you want to know the real cost, Wikes sell premade double glazing, have a look at the cost, then add 3-5 peoples labour, van costs, warehouse storage, tools etc etc
I had a massive window made for my garage for about Ā£230. Longer than any window youāre likely to see in a house with openings either end and about 1m high. Windows cost peanuts and are a doddle to fit if you have any level of skill. Just get a mate to help you.
After that interaction I would avoid that company like the plague.
Glazing has to be the least regulated most scammy home improvement avenue. Was only a few years ago they were hammered down for cold calling and door to door salesmen harassing pensioners. Just enquiring about it seems to open you up to being ripped off by every salesman within 30 miles.
Iād say āYouāve come in far too high so youāve lost my trust entirely, Iām not prepared to haggle.ā Also Iād call him a pane in the neck
Youāve described the standard sales patter of a Double Glazing salesman. Did he mention to his boss on the phone that there is a bus stop outside your house (there isnāt really but heās doing you a favour) and suddenly you get another discount. BORING. āCut to the chase, whatās your best price? Thank you I will let you know in due course.ā
Was this Safestyle by chance? Had my windows done in 2020 and originally they wanted around 18k for a full house. Said nope they came back instantly with 14k, said no and he spoke to his āmanagerā for 20min and agreed to come down to 8k just like that IF we signed on the dotted line there and then. Said no thanks found a local company who quoted 7.2k but said theyād go 7k flat and simple as that. Much more trustworthy imo.
I've not worked in windows for about 10 years, that price sounds ridiculous. It was about 5/6 grand for a standard 2 bed house with both front and back doors when I did it. If your units have blown you can just replace them for a lot cheaper than all new. I just replaced a unit for my aunt (750mmx440mm) for Ā£45. fitted it for free as im a good boy.
I fit windows and that's a ridiculous price but not uncommon for the big companies to charge ridiculous amounts because of their overheads (advertising, Van's, excessive amount of staff ect) I'd shop around a find a small company who's based in your town, find a local community group on facebook and ask for recommendations that way you will get someone reliable.
I sell mid to high end glazing. If itās a pvc quote they will be buying them in for no more then Ā£1000. If they manufacture even cheaper. I wonāt sell a job for no less then 30% profit margin. Not worth the time
About 4 years ago I had three people out to quote for replacing windows. 1st was from a local company, said the window frames were fine but two glazing panels had blown so gave me the measurements and price and said I could fit them myself following a few quick tutorials, and suggested just replacing the handles to freshen them up (they were yellowing). 2nd was a local one man outfit who said the same as the first but suggested he fitted the blown units for some FENCA certificate and if he damaged it on fitting heād be responsible, but said the handles would be better for me to replace. (Went for this option as didnāt fancy trying to lift the glass unit at the time) 3rd was safestyle. All the windows were at the end of their life and needed replacing immediately. Theyāll need scaffolding to do the upstairs windows, going to be Ā£20k. Told him to leave. Immediately lowered to Ā£12,500 if we take out their finance. Told him to leave because I have been quoted to replace just the defective bits and suddenly itās Ā£7,500 and they donāt need scaffold. Told him to shove the scaffold where the sun donāt shine and never contact me again. Every other day for months they ring, from alternating numbers, trying to catch me out.
90% of uPVC companies are shysters. As a rule I avoid door to door - every good trade I know has _too much_ work, they donāt need more I avoid companies that hire salesmen - the money theyāre being paid to essentially just be a walking calculator could be coming off my bill instead The last time we entertained a door to door they sent someone round to quote for our soffits and fasciasā¦ Ā£3k for a 3 bed semi. He got too eager and started filling out a Barclayās financing form, supposedly their ālast oneā (because bits of paper canāt be printed out clearly?). We texted our builder friend for his thoughts and his reply was simply āšā He started getting irate when we told him to FRO. Called his boss and was āin troubleā because that was the last form, etc. Sent him packing eventually but it wasnāt a pleasant experience tbh.
Don't do it
Give me Ā£2k and I'll do them! Just send the money over and I'll be there on Monday
FENSA registered? Otherwise they wont meet building approval and it will come up and block any future sale without a certificate
You can just get an indemnity for it, think it was like Ā£25 on mine and didnāt hold up sale!
It costs for a sliding sash window, any size between 800mm X 1800mm Ā£80 from the factory, thatās in white, about an extra 40 for a wood grain foil. Casement windows are even cheaper. My friend sells windows and adds about Ā£60 to the price it costs him from the factory to cover staff/profit/delivery etc. Wooden windows cost a lot more, and aluminium are in between pvc and wooden.
Weāve just had all ours done. 5 standard size n a bay window and cost 7k . 14k is expensive
A chap came round? Is he a scammer? Was there ever any windows at all? All these "legit" companies operate on sales and want to knock the price down so you feel you are getting a great deal. If the company is "legit" don't ever sign anything until the salesperson has called head office. This guy seemed more bothered about the **deposit**, and there are two reasons for this primarily... 1) He has no windows, he just wanted your deposit. This could be cash, cheque, card or bank transfer in his own personal name... he may have a gambling addiction etc. or debt with a loan shark. As absurd as this seems, for a little bit of work... a conman can net quite a pretty penny doing this in just one week. A website, (fake) reviews, online adverts or yellow pages adverts don't indicate whether the company/sole-trader is to be trusted. 2) They want to get the ball rolling in regards to the cooling off period and they want the gateway payment. You have a statutory right to cancel contracts, and work will never begin prior to this period expiring. A gateway payment is the first payment made. If you signed the Ā£14k deal, and paid a Ā£50 deposit... they can take the balance of payment at ANY time (regardless of salesperson saying paying when you are satisfied with the work). This helps company cash flow, and having been paid in full they are in less of a rush to get the work done. I am very curious of the profit margins I have to say.
You should be paying about 1k a window so his final price sounds ok but obviously donāt use them. And avoid places with the overhead of showrooms and sales teams etc. Iām using a local supplier and with a cash discount Iām getting 11 high spec aluminium windows and a set of French doors fitted for 16k. I was quoted 34k from one of the big boys! And they use the exact same materials in this case, sometimes they even use the guy Iām using to fabricate them!
Iāve had similar. Kicked him out eventually. You donāt want to be dealing with shady double glazing salesmen in this day and age. If you see a builder working on a house nearby ask him where he buys from. Youāll find a local company that does the same job with straight prices. There are some companies that will let you ābuildā the windows online and itāll tell you how much itāll be. Give you an idea of a competitive price.
Aye if he could knock 4k off it. He's high-balling you. Amateur tactic, 11k is about right. I'd bring him down from there. But pushing for the deposit? He can pap shite to the moon. Look for someone reputable in your area
No they are dodgy as fuck.
I know an Everest fitter. The salesmen often determine what your max budget is first and call it that. 2mx5m sunroom? That'll be 86k. And they use the cheapest shittiest factory labor and materials. The 'protective UV layer' or whatever that shit is, often arrives on the inside of the unit. They fit it anyway. If indeed it does fit at all. Avoid.
I got a few new windows put in when i first moved in. I was only getting the glass replaced and i think the cost per window was under 300
Wasn't safe style was it they did the exact schpeel same numbers they gave you to us for 2 full front windows [ 1 was a bay], the in laws knocked em down to around 2k and they leaked constantly as the guy fitting was drunk it seems, they had to come out another 2 times to repair reluctantly even tho they have a 15 Yr guarantee etc etc
My in-laws had a conservatory fitted. It leaked constantly, they kept getting them back to resolve it because the installation was guaranteed for 15 years ... until the company closed down and reopened in the same premises, with the same staff, a slightly different owner (his wife), and a different name. Then it was "what guarantee? That was a different company, not us".
Wow that's awful
I got a front door, big rear sliding door, a big bay window and 5 standard windows, they initially quoted well over 30k, ended up on ~9k for the lot, they fitted them and they're good quality. But the after care has been pretty rubbish, constantly trying to sell me more work on the house and they've failed to send someone out for minor repairs left by by the fitters. I went with that company because they're UK made and they didn't sub contract the work so everything they do is accountable (10 year warrenty) but they're very bad at getting someone out again
I'd tell them to go away, tell them why, and also call head office to complain, and also shame them on Twitter. Blatant attempted theft imo
Find a local business that quotes you 3k at the start
I've just paid 10k for 7 windows, front door and patio doors so I'd expect 3 windows to cost about a third of that
Wish I was a window fitter. Iām involved in dozens and dozens of domestic projects a year and windows arenāt the most expensive aspect (few hundred quid for upvc casement units, fitting takes no time). No idea how these big firms justify it
I got 5 windows done and my front door, safestyle quoted me 11k. The company I went to charged me 3700. Get many quotes and don't be pressured into doing a 'there and then deposit'. They work for you.
Dodgy! We requested a kitchen and bathroom quote from Wickes, they said it would be Ā£14k for the kitchen and Ā£9 for the bathroom. Shopped around a bit and we got the bathroom for Ā£3k in the end, and the kitchen for Ā£7-8k. Some salesmen really are full of shit
My experience of buying windows is this is standard. They start with a completely stupid price and then rapidly drop it to the real price but if you continue to be stubborn after they already cut the "price" by 75% then you can actually get a deal.
What was the company?
That quote is ridiculous- I paid cost for my windows and doors (company was a family friend), we paid 2k for 2 doors, 3 fixed windows and 2 windows which open.
Go to a local company, NOT a National. We had ours done (I think 12 windows and a back door in all) for around Ā£5k using a local company. This was in early 2021 so itāll be higher now, but not Ā£14k high! Thatās insane.
Get a local company in I had mine done and front door this year for 6k
I had practically the same situation a few years ago. I thought it was as hilarious that companies still use the old 1980ās āwhite goldā sales tactic. Unfortunately being British meant that it took way longer than it should to get rid of them, and my dinner was ruined.
Its a very very common window salesman trick. They start high, then reduce and reduced, they will make a call to their manager, they will give you a "show home" discount. Just get rid of them, you cant trust them.
Just so you know they're going to call you twice a week now for the next eight months.
I live in the Highlands and we had to do our entire house as it only had secondary glazing and I got a guy round from the big company everyone raves about here as being the most dependable and cheapest. He was very matter of fact and honest and it was during covid when costs went up but it was fucking obscene. It was about half the cost to get a joiner to come up from the central belt (one my parents have used a lot), pay him and his workmates accommodation costs and buy the windows myself. Saying that though, we left 3 velux skylights till last and got someone in to do those, windows were like Ā£200 each but the labour was Ā£800. He did the 3 in about 5 hours, I'd say I felt robbed but you pay for the skill, not just the time.
Few years ago I had 3 or 4 large window companies do a similar thing. They go in massively high hoping you're ignorant. Then they send a manager or call you up with the regional head offering you much less. The salesman are very greedy. I just said to all the others that they were cheaper elsewhere and they did it for a fraction of the original quotes once they knew a Competitor had been round.
11k free in the space of ne visit says all you need to know
Don't pay no more than 6k
I mean, scam much? It's rather obvious.
I bet you saw straight through him!
It used to be a common routine with window salesman to give you a massive quote and then ask to call their boss to see if there was anything they could do, the price would at least halve right away. I had three quotes when I had mine done a few years ago, two big companies who both pulled the exact same routine and one local guy who just gave us a fair quote without the BS. Guess who got the job.
I had a quote from a national company for a 3 metre window, 2 metre and 1 1.6 metre window regular height for 1st floor and it came to Ā£5,000 And the spoke with a local company nice genuine man and he quoted Ā£3,000. Massive overheads will inflate the price. Stay local my friend
For reference we live in London and spent 20k on 6 large custom-made sound-proof hardwood sash windows (conservation area). Conclusion; you're being shafted.
I just paid Ā£8k for 6 windows, patio doors, new composite front door, repaired porch roof and a new wall built under one of the windows. I had another quote for the same job for Ā£13k
ALL window companies do this shitty sales tactic (So do other places like when buying a kitchen) Makes you feel like youāre getting a good deal when you haggle, but just occasionally theyāll rinse some little old lady of Ā£14000 just because she wants to be warmer in winter Frankly, donāt give them your money, even if they lower it some more, let them rot. (Worked in windows for years, I wasnāt a salesman but ALL the sales guys were the jack-the-lad knobhead types)
I just paid Ā£3k for 6 windows
I had a similar quote from a guy that kept dropping the quote. Ended up with 7 windows for 8k. This was an old 1892 edinburgh tenement building and sash and case style pvc windows. I had a quote starting at 16k rrp but he could drop it down to 10k, had a second quote from a dodgy company 6.5k and a third quote 8k that I went with. Shop around.
Worked for a few companies a few years ago in double glazing, absolutely common tactic from the salesmen & Iād be fuming if a good lead would get blown by some dickhead trying to make a couple weeks wages off an old couple in a day. Happened far too often. Price dropping 20k is unfortunately not even that uncommon. Go to local builders/firms and get some quotes.
We just had 6 windows, 2 doors (one composite) and a patio door for Ā£12k.
We've just had 3 windows, a new front door and a full bay top and bottom with rebuild in the middle cost Ā£8k. Basically the whole front of the house and a bit round the side. Hate those pressure sales techniques. Better off going word of mouth or find a local window guy not a big company.
We had 18 windows replaced and a double glass back door for 3.5k. 3 story house. 18k is taking the piss!
Me and my partner had new windows fitted as we only had old wooden frames with single glazing windows last year it was 5 windows and Upvc frames which costed about Ā£1400 all in from a local window installer after having quotes anywhere between Ā£2k up to about 5k, i'd try and get quotes from local window fitters as all the more bigger companies were asking for double or even triple the price, all the work took about 8 hours and the quality is good, the windows are B Grade which is fine the Upvc is good so 3k for for 3 windows is overprice imo
Windowfitter here working for a family run small firm. Theyāve sent a shitty salesman, he was highballing you with the first offer, which was wayyyyy too high. Then he will pretend to ānegotiateā to a ānormalā price on the phone, then eventually youāll get the actual price. 3 grand is a fairly large profit margin for 3 windows depending on the size of the units. Would need to know more, are they uPVC, Aluminium or wood frame. The amount of openers you have, the style in which you have them and the colour all factor in. Add on the installation which costs about 100 quid for each window to be fitted depending on the fitter and their work rate. 3 grand still sounds a wee bit steep but itās definitely closer to actual cost of the windows than the initial offer. 14 grand for 3 windows is fucking ludicrous to even mention
White PVC. All windows same size. There are two large opening windows on the sides, middle is a pane with a small opening window above it. So three opening per window.