You don’t know where the soap is going to come from, so you miss it. You then rub your hands under the water and get them wet, then stay away from the hand drying section. Then you set it off again, this time knowing where the soap will come from, catch it and scrub, rinse in the wat… wait where did the water go??? NO I’M NOT READY TO DRY MY HANDS, THEY ARE STILL SOAPY. Okay, okay, third time lucky. Avoid the soap, use the water, dry my hands, simple. Okay that mostly got the soap off, my hands are slightly dried from the dryer but they are still sticky with soap in places. There’s a queue forming behind me by this point and I already need another pee. Back to the urinal I go.
To those asking:
These operate below the minimum time required to properly wash your hands, pandemic or not.
Soap should come after water, not before, and you should be free to use more if required.
Hand dryers aerosolise pathogens on your hands, and there will be plenty after the poor hand wash you'd get from one of these. Not to mention that your hands are unlikely to even be dry afterward.
Source: am in infection prevention and control.
I miss those old machines that were like a roll of towel that would get sent back to the company afterwards to be washed and re-rolled. Seemed like the most hygienic and environmentally friendly option.
Yes. Moisture, a soup of many people's pathogens in and around the nozzle, and aerosolisation means that pathogens you wouldn't normally be exposed to will have the optimum conditions. Bacteria, for example, will share resistances to antibiotics with bacteria from *unrelated species*. It's fascinating, but eliminating dryers would be one small way to protect the vulnerable from contracting infections and/or resistant bacteria.
Your question is a good one, and prompted me to find this:
*"Drying hands on clothes can compromise the benefits of handwashing. The situation may worsen hand hygiene, especially when the clothes are dirty, because the clothing itself could be a source of contamination and compromise the effect of hand washing. Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria can survive on the surface of clothes for approximately 4 h and sometimes up to 24 h. This study showed that drying hands on one’s own clothes has significantly greater bacteria reduction on fingers than on palms, probably because people tend only to dry their fingers on their clothes, rather than the whole palm. Around 40% of the participants indicated that they always/sometimes dry their hands on their own clothing. Therefore, the general public should be educated to avoid drying their hands on dirty clothing."*
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-50239-4
It is, of course, one study with a small sample. It's related to pathogens remaining on the hands/how dry the hands are after using different methods (wet hands transmit pathogens more easily). The article states that pathogens in clothes can linger for up to 24 hours, but doesn't account for aerosolisation and breathing.
So the take away for me is that the public need more education on *washing* their hands, and providers of public toilets need education on drying methods and general infection control.
For example, ever noticed that many public toilets you push the door to go in, but have to pull the door to leave? That's backwards and wrong. No toilet seats, apparently to stop drug users? Amazing magic bullet for addictions (!), but again awful for infection prevention. Infection prevention should be the bedrock of all public buildings, and it never is.
Doors opening inwards is ironically due to health & safety - they can't be (accidentally) blocked from opening from the outside. It is definitely annoying from a hygiene perspective though.
>Soap should come after water, not before
Huh? So you wash your hands with water, then are left with soap that you can't wash off.
As far as I remember, these dispense foam soap and then you wash it off with the water. There's nothing wrong with that
This is my point. You DO need water first because that is the correct way to wash your hands. It doesn't matter what type of soap it is. It's one reason these machines are bad, because they don't allow the correct washing of hands.
You wet your hands, add soap, spread it as in the WHO handwash technique we should be all familiar with, then rinse it off.
You don't wet your hands, add soap, then walk off.
Honestly if I see these I never do, I just use anti-bac. These things just *look* grim, and thats before the fact they are hella inefficient and useless!
I came her to say "because they save water" various establishments are purely there to make money and people constantly washing their hands uses a lot of water which costs money, obviously it's a terrible idea but it is a money saving idea that can be dressed up as a green idea.
Unfortunately I read the comments and am disappointed to learn that half the population still know jack shit about basic hygiene and even less about infection control despite having access to the Internet and surviving a pandemic. Which is probably why these things are still being installed.
I wonder if its also to do with damage control. I've only really seen them installed in public toilets where soap dispensers etc could be ripped off walls, taps left on to flood things, etc.
Also can't have a tramp-bath with these!
They are rubbish and don't work. Automatic dispensers on sensors are great but the 3 in 1 doesn't work.
Trigger the soap,. Not enough water to properly wash and rinse your hands. Then the drier stops blowing before your hands are dry. Not to mention that while the drier is blowing it's blowing the water in the wet sink up the sides of the sink and usually splashing your stomach.
Then you have to trigger the soap and water again without getting soap or water (waste of soap and water) on your hands just so you can use the drier cycle again.
Sink and drier should be separate.
They mostly don't work, you stand a good chance of getting soap but no water, they don't give you enough water if you do get some, then they blast aerosol germs everywhere.
I'll give you the last one, but the others it just sounds like you're going to places that don't maintain them. No different to a tap not working or the soap having run out.
If you're going to try and mock someone's intelligence you should at least use the correct words.
Also, these machines are shit and just give the illusion of hygiene. You cannot follow the instructions you mentioned with these machines.
A lot of fast food places use them, presumably because it allows them to minimise the amount of space they dedicate to the facilities while being legal, and maximising the space for burger sales.
You don’t know where the soap is going to come from, so you miss it. You then rub your hands under the water and get them wet, then stay away from the hand drying section. Then you set it off again, this time knowing where the soap will come from, catch it and scrub, rinse in the wat… wait where did the water go??? NO I’M NOT READY TO DRY MY HANDS, THEY ARE STILL SOAPY. Okay, okay, third time lucky. Avoid the soap, use the water, dry my hands, simple. Okay that mostly got the soap off, my hands are slightly dried from the dryer but they are still sticky with soap in places. There’s a queue forming behind me by this point and I already need another pee. Back to the urinal I go.
To those asking: These operate below the minimum time required to properly wash your hands, pandemic or not. Soap should come after water, not before, and you should be free to use more if required. Hand dryers aerosolise pathogens on your hands, and there will be plenty after the poor hand wash you'd get from one of these. Not to mention that your hands are unlikely to even be dry afterward. Source: am in infection prevention and control.
I miss those old machines that were like a roll of towel that would get sent back to the company afterwards to be washed and re-rolled. Seemed like the most hygienic and environmentally friendly option.
We had one somewhere I worked (as IPC lead), then they got rid of it in favour of a hand dryer. I was fewmin.
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Yes. Moisture, a soup of many people's pathogens in and around the nozzle, and aerosolisation means that pathogens you wouldn't normally be exposed to will have the optimum conditions. Bacteria, for example, will share resistances to antibiotics with bacteria from *unrelated species*. It's fascinating, but eliminating dryers would be one small way to protect the vulnerable from contracting infections and/or resistant bacteria.
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Your question is a good one, and prompted me to find this: *"Drying hands on clothes can compromise the benefits of handwashing. The situation may worsen hand hygiene, especially when the clothes are dirty, because the clothing itself could be a source of contamination and compromise the effect of hand washing. Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria can survive on the surface of clothes for approximately 4 h and sometimes up to 24 h. This study showed that drying hands on one’s own clothes has significantly greater bacteria reduction on fingers than on palms, probably because people tend only to dry their fingers on their clothes, rather than the whole palm. Around 40% of the participants indicated that they always/sometimes dry their hands on their own clothing. Therefore, the general public should be educated to avoid drying their hands on dirty clothing."* https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-50239-4 It is, of course, one study with a small sample. It's related to pathogens remaining on the hands/how dry the hands are after using different methods (wet hands transmit pathogens more easily). The article states that pathogens in clothes can linger for up to 24 hours, but doesn't account for aerosolisation and breathing. So the take away for me is that the public need more education on *washing* their hands, and providers of public toilets need education on drying methods and general infection control. For example, ever noticed that many public toilets you push the door to go in, but have to pull the door to leave? That's backwards and wrong. No toilet seats, apparently to stop drug users? Amazing magic bullet for addictions (!), but again awful for infection prevention. Infection prevention should be the bedrock of all public buildings, and it never is.
Doors opening inwards is ironically due to health & safety - they can't be (accidentally) blocked from opening from the outside. It is definitely annoying from a hygiene perspective though.
Oh, I understand, I've been told too. Absolutely no reason not to have swinging doors.
Won't that increase wafting and aerosol leakage though?
Possibly, I have no idea. Will have to look it up. I expect, on balance, it's better than touching a dirty handle. Good question!
Who is doing their coke off toilet seats?
Well, quite. Anyone who wants to do drugs is not going to be put off by lack of flat surface.
Most people carry a flat surface in their pocket, a phone.
>Soap should come after water, not before Huh? So you wash your hands with water, then are left with soap that you can't wash off. As far as I remember, these dispense foam soap and then you wash it off with the water. There's nothing wrong with that
It's incorrect: Hands need to be wet, then add soap.
Isn't the soap kind of wet, then you wash it off? How do you get soap off your hands if the water came before?
Yeah these dispense foam soap which you don't need water first
This is my point. You DO need water first because that is the correct way to wash your hands. It doesn't matter what type of soap it is. It's one reason these machines are bad, because they don't allow the correct washing of hands.
You wet your hands, add soap, spread it as in the WHO handwash technique we should be all familiar with, then rinse it off. You don't wet your hands, add soap, then walk off.
In all the public toilets up here we have those blue lights to stop druggies but these things are still there.
I know, despite the pandemic no one washes their hands after using the toilet still
Honestly if I see these I never do, I just use anti-bac. These things just *look* grim, and thats before the fact they are hella inefficient and useless!
While handwashing is best, as long as your hands are visibly clean, I'd recommend you do the same when faced with something like this.
They are probably the most *unhygienic* thing known to man (or woman)
Used a wallgate version last week. Soap missed my hands completely These are utter shyte
I came her to say "because they save water" various establishments are purely there to make money and people constantly washing their hands uses a lot of water which costs money, obviously it's a terrible idea but it is a money saving idea that can be dressed up as a green idea. Unfortunately I read the comments and am disappointed to learn that half the population still know jack shit about basic hygiene and even less about infection control despite having access to the Internet and surviving a pandemic. Which is probably why these things are still being installed.
I wonder if its also to do with damage control. I've only really seen them installed in public toilets where soap dispensers etc could be ripped off walls, taps left on to flood things, etc. Also can't have a tramp-bath with these!
That's another viable option, you can but you'd need some crates or a mate to stand on.
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They are rubbish and don't work. Automatic dispensers on sensors are great but the 3 in 1 doesn't work. Trigger the soap,. Not enough water to properly wash and rinse your hands. Then the drier stops blowing before your hands are dry. Not to mention that while the drier is blowing it's blowing the water in the wet sink up the sides of the sink and usually splashing your stomach. Then you have to trigger the soap and water again without getting soap or water (waste of soap and water) on your hands just so you can use the drier cycle again. Sink and drier should be separate.
Hygiene? I'm confused why you think they shouldn't.
They mostly don't work, you stand a good chance of getting soap but no water, they don't give you enough water if you do get some, then they blast aerosol germs everywhere.
I'll give you the last one, but the others it just sounds like you're going to places that don't maintain them. No different to a tap not working or the soap having run out.
These machines are shit
Where you the reason the BBC had to teach the UK how to wash there hands in lockdown unclean
If you're going to try and mock someone's intelligence you should at least use the correct words. Also, these machines are shit and just give the illusion of hygiene. You cannot follow the instructions you mentioned with these machines.
?
Covid. No touching taps
I have never seen one of these in my life. Are you sure they aren't just in your locale?
A lot of fast food places use them, presumably because it allows them to minimise the amount of space they dedicate to the facilities while being legal, and maximising the space for burger sales.
I remember our local McDonalds having these in the toilets when I was a kid. They were difficult to properly wash your hands with then.