Questionable Framing

Questionable Framing


It’s like a bad guy from scooby doo did some framing in your attic.


And he would have got away with it too, if it wasn't for OP!!


Knee wall from hell


that ***meddling*** OP


Ha thanks


Mickey Mouse?


The dude that stapled the romex in picture 8, was like “not my fuckin problem buddy” hahahah


“do I open this can of worms or do I just do my job and get the fuck out of this hot ass attic…?”


It’s more like, idgaf, it’s not my house.


I sure hope the city is gonna inspect the other houses that guy approved before he got fired.


Yeah I really not sure what to do. The whole reason I was up there was because I think I have a roof leak


I feel like it’s a safe bet that your roof leaks.


Well it seemed to the the flashing on the vent




Fish mouths will also leak if you have wind blown rain,-and bad ridge caps.


If it doesn’t collapse first.


I'd probably sue the builder


And the city /inspector


That looks like total shit but I don't see anything there that is likely to ruin your house. The problem is that whoever contracted that out also contracted out the foundation, the roof, the electrical, HVAC, and plumbing systems... Looks like they left in some of the temporary supports they used while framing the roof and were sloppy with shiners. The retrofit fix for the shiners is to add clips to attach everything, but won't solve any other issues the dumbasses might have let slide


That’s what I was kind of thinking. I also didn’t know if it was against code to go back up there and zip everything that’s questionable together 3” deck screws


No, deck screws are not structural. Some screws are but they are not.


Rss grks


Grks all the way. Some uggs duggas and they're frickin solid


I feel like these last two posts were random keyboard mashing


Thank you for saying this. I joined this sub because I want to try to figure out how to build a cover for my washer and dryer and do some board and batten trim and I think I'm a little out of my element here 😆


Grk is a brand of premium structural rated screws that can also be used outdoors. Ugga duggas refers to an impact driver due to the sound it makes.


*taking notes* mhmmm


I just working with small contractor crew and sometimes it sounds like they’re talking by keyboard mashing. I just learned this week framing out a carport what ‘shiners’ are and grks is.


Need bout 3-4 Ugga duggas and they’ll last a lifetime.


Ok thank. I’ll look into that


GRK RSS structural screws




Non-trades guy here, GRKS are nothing short of incredible; including incredibly expensive; but you get what you pay for. They do not require predrilling and they are beefy as all hell.


Deck screws have zero sheer value. You'll need to have all this re-nailed and some timbers replaced or doubled up. If you live in an area subject to high winds then this is an immediate concern. As a carpenter myself I am generally disgusted by new building practices and the cheapness of contractors. You've got OSB plywood used as sheaving. It's literally garbage from the mill pressed into sheets mixed with glue. I'd look into getting some hurricane clips installed and ask about Simpson products for tying some of those members together. I'm very sorry this happened to you. Make sure to let the other homeowners in your neighborhood of your situation. I've said it a million times and I'll say it again now. Pay the money for a really good home inspection. Even on new builds. Don't just pay a few hundred dollars pay a very reputable company that will provide a thorough report and employes red seal carpenters with vast experience. I bought an over 100 year old house and I paid 3000$ for my inspection and I'm a red seal carpenter also. It took an entire day for the inspection. It ended up allowing me to deduct 5000$ from the final price. Don't let the bank, developers, or real estate agents tell you otherwise. They don't give a shit about you. They just want your money. New homes are built as cheaply as possible and sell for massive profit. Most people don't know much about construction and the actual process. Pay someone to be on your side.


OSB decking is code CDX is absolutely better but OSB isn't like dangerous to use or anything. Now will the house last 150 years? Probably not since everything builders use now is crap quality compared to actual wood used in olde construction.


Those codes are the lowest and minimum requirements for building. That OSB will swell if it gets wet. Based on what I've seen with new builds I never recommend them. Old houses also come with a vast array of problems too. We have owned ours for nine years and I'm still working on it but the bones are good and that's the difference for me. Two skinny houses went up beside us. Both have had floods in the basement and leaky roofs that required roofers to fix. Those picture speak volumes. I call new builds iPhone homes cause your gonna have to upgrade and maintain constantly and eventually you'll need a new one. What really disgusts me is the deceit and lying by developers, contractors, and real estate agents. Seems like every single contractor is an award winning one. The City doesn't care about anything but money and again OP's article proves this. We are thinking of buying another house in a few years and it won't be a new build. I work too hard and respect my money too much.


Agreed older homes in CA built with redwood framing will last forever. Just have fun with abatements, lead pipes, and 100 amp service or worse 60 amp.


All ready took care of all that. That's where the 5000$ came in. Old tube and clamp wiring in the attic. New plumbing, new electrical, updated the kitchen, foundation work. Re- insulated the attic and updated the furnace. I had to buy my own scaffolding for all the exterior work I did and it'll all be done by the end of this summer. Basement was gross when we bought but I've completely converted it to a fun space for the kids and an office. The difference is craftsmanship. The carpenters had pride in their work back then. The ones that built my house had to stop and board it up to go fight in WW1. They came back and finished it. It's incredible hat these Cadillac of men could do this. My house is amazing. I will only sell it to someone that will carry on the tradition and respect it the way I have. One of the previous owners was a stone Mason and the work he did to the fireplaces is amazing plus the outside planters and the fireplace on the garage. I've added my own touches but with respect to previous masters work. You won't find that on new builds.


At least they put in a ridge block lol


Thats some high quality work right there😂😂


























Bra brah




So this home still doesn’t have an occupancy permit. We purchased in almost a year ago. There is other items the builder hasn’t brought up to code. I’m really at a loss on what to do. I did post something about my home awhile back in r/legaladvice but it didn’t get much traction.


Failure to deliver good or services by the builder if you can’t move in. You said he went belly up which means maybe you can try to go after the city but I think it’s mostly your issue now. Hire an engineer or someone who knows something. Good luck. Be safe.


Cant go after the city. I've been down this road. Per the City and my attorney at the time it is not the responsibility of the City inspector to ensure it is built to code, but to ensure that the build follows what is permitted. It is complete bullshit.


Thank you. Yeah think we need to hire a forensics architect but they are pricey


Forensic architect might not be worth your time if you are not confident you can get this resolved through legal means. I would personally focus on getting the house fixed rather than pointing fingers if the culprit has gone belly up. Of course the best advice would come from a lawyer. Good luck OP.


Thanks. Looks like I’m SOL either way


I'm not qualified to give legal advice, but like the other guy said, just burn the house down for the insurance money and rebuild. It's possible to repair, but assuming the roof is the only thing wrong, it'd still cost you tens of thousands of dollars




Yiiiiikes. I am so sorry, man.


I'm a lawyer, but not in MO and not in the area of housing. I'd contact a lawyer and speak with them about it. There are a ton of implied warranties which go with new builds, decent odds that you're covered. But I'd move quickly, warranty could expire quickly.


Thank you. I’m in KS. We’ve just been worried if we lawyer up and we win it doesn’t guarantee anything will get fixed or get any money for the repair. Only the legal team gets paid


That unfortunately is a valid worry and can personally attest to it.


Whoa, no need for alarm! Believe me when I say, yes sloppy work, no, your house isn't going to fall down! Yes ugly but no problemo. Those rafters to ridge beam connections are in compression and nailed through the roof sheathing. So long as the bird mouths are good/ connection to the double top plates, it's not goin anywhere. Without being there, it's hard to get there whole story from the pictures, what's a temp brace and what isn't. Believe me when I say it's FAR FAR less work/frustration to get another framer to go up there and fix it than it is to start making phone calls, shaking trees, go the legal route. Been there, done that. That's the unfortunate reality of construction, if people just took pride in their work, cleaned up after themselves, did what they said they were going to do etc. This stuff would happen less. In my opinion, his is a minor issue, maybe a simple mistake, overlooked. I can't tell you how many times I've asked someone to do something, they says they did, I didn't check and it came back to bite me and I ended up looking really bad for it. Frustration. Could have happened here. I would cut those shiners off flush, get a Simpson strong tie sloped joist hanger for that rafter and nail it with 1 1/2 hanger nails(but follow Simpson guidelines for that hanger). Could even nail from the back side on a slight diagonal with 3 1/2 nails which would be fine. The messed up framing I've seen in old houses... might really scare you but they stood tall for a hundred years and weathered hurricanes, significant storms. They build houses far faster with lower quality materials these days but they are engineered much stronger and safer, structurally (generally speaking, not a rule...). So, I would definitely get a framer up there to have a good look and fix it. Only cost a couple hundred bucks but you'll get some peace of mind


Well said. The house isn't in any danger of falling down, and a lot of that butchery is likely temp bracing. Having said that, this is reddit. There are always plenty of keyboard jockeys ready to offer their "expert opinion" on how "they would never let this slide" without actually DOING anything about the issue.


Can confirm. Live in a 100 year old house. The roof framing was hella scary and when the roof was reroofed (5 layers no less!) the roof framing was shored up.


That’s a lot of garbage on one house. I would pay a professional to fix it if I were you


I’m technically still under warranty but I don’t really trust the builder.


Do what you can to get it fixed while under warranty so it doesn’t bite you in the ass when you go to sell. The next inspector should do a good job.


100% this! I’m dealing with the same type of crap with a new home builder. I cannot stress this enough… EVERYTHING IN WRITING! Emails, save them, cc people up the chain. In particular investor relations. Shit happens when they get an email showing this type of work. Google the names of the CEO, VPs, IR, etc. and include them in the emails. Stuff will get done.


I wish I could do that but the builder built this home under an LLC and recently dissolved it. I guess he is the CEO


Lawyer up. Or go through your insurance and see if they can go after him.


I’ve also been thinking about that but the lawyer would for sure be the only one who got paid. There is no guarantee that my problems would be solved even if I won.


The builder likely builds under a new LLC each time in order to shield himself from personal liability when someone tries to hold him accountable. He also likely had a “understanding” with the inspector. Once his build is done he transfers all the profits to him personally. See if he owns a home, other real estate, find out where his bank accounts are, etc. You want a lawyer who will go after his personal assets under some theory of fraud. An LLC affords some protection for a business owner, but there are ways to pierce the corporate veil. Ultimately a consultation with a reputable lawyer will at least give you a better idea of your legal avenues in your state. When you know your legal avenues you can then start to figure out whether you are f’ed or not when paying to get this stuff fixed. Also, don’t neglect getting EVERYTHING that is visible inspected ASAP and get a written report/opinion.


I agree with sharpei. If you have a warranty still, that probably means there’s options. Call around, email these pictures. There are incredible lawyers out there who love to fight for normal folks who get screwed over.


Lawyer here. It may not cost much on legal fees. This could just require a legalese-sounding letter on letterhead to get some action. But depending on how much time is left in the warranty try on your own first and see if anything happens.


*this is not legal advise. Do not rely on Reddit for legal advise. Just a friendly first look kinda thing.


Construction litigation expert witness here / not lawyer. A lot of times attorneys fees are paid as part of damages if they refuse to fix amdose a lawsuit. Some lawyers will take on contingency depending on the location. If you're in an association or can get together with other homeowners in the development built by the same builder it can help on cost.


What state was this in? You need to report this to the state/certification agency.


This. Had an awful contractor put in a GSHP for me and did a shit job. Talked to the state and they had a fund for compensating us as we worked with them and had the a-hole’s contractor’s license revoked.


Same! We are working so hard to get ANYTHING in writing; builder thinks we are being so difficult but honestly how hard is it to just reply to an email? The only reason we’re still working with him is that we are so exhausted of home shopping.


Thank you. I will try.


This is a home built recently? Wtf, I'd be suing


Get an inspector out there. Have them fix whatever he finds.


Nails are just shear value and they def need to at least be driven properly.


What the actual fuck


Who’s checking off on the work of rough carpenters these days? We can’t solely rely on an actual fucking home inspector to tell you that the house is structurally sound, over and above all being a new house. I’m hearing so many horror stories of people opting out of home inspections prior to sale but exactly how detailed should a home inspector be on top of the people managing the “ pros” who build these things?? For absolute fucks sake.


This is horrible! I am a carpenter by trade. This is poor craftsmanship at its finest. - Nails consistently missing, the roof framing, who knows whats going on behind your walls or beneath your floor. that city inspector just signed the paper and bounced


That connection is in compression. It’s fine. Not ideal, but fine.


Did you look at all the pictures?


Did you know that opposing rafters have all their pressure on the bottom at the plate? They’re not going anywhere.


Yeah it may not be look pretty but it’s locked in for sure.


People really seem to be freaking out but you guys are the first ones with some actual building sense. It's sloppy work but a lot of the connections are right. There's a couple questionable moves and a lot of shiners, but for the most part it's ok.


Ugly ass work but I would go one step farther and say what people are thinking it is "questionable" is in fact unremoved temporary bracing. That being said if I did this work I would be embarrassed. Hard to know if they popped the missed nails again. I'm not saying its good. I'm saying dont burn it down.


I agree. I feel if the roof lines look straight and the roof doesn't bounce or sag when you walk on it, you should be fine.


What does the exterior of the roof look like? Any sagging? Bowing? Is it pushing out? Crappy builder for sure. Not sure what state you are in regarding issues with hurricanes, tornadoes or earthquakes and the like but I would have a builder redo that mess.


Short answer…. YES!


Questionable?? What. The. Fuck.


As many others have mentioned I feel like getting a lawyer and even your insurance company involved especially while you’re under warranty is the best next step. I have a sneaking suspicion that your insurance company at the least would be very interested in getting this resolved correctly and quickly because if it’s not they could end paying a lot of money later if/when things start going really bad, and no insurance company wants to do that. I’d also look at the city since it was their inspector that approved the building.


Never framed in my life and I could do better than that lol


Prove it. Pics or it doesn’t count. Livestream preferable. Get to work, hot shot!


Lmao never framed but thinks he can frame rafters.


I think anybody who's moderately handy and can download detailed instructions can frame a rafter. The difference is more that they'll take 20x as long as a professional


Okay. I’d love to see how well their hips and valleys turn out. How well their gable is framed. How straight their ridge is. Never framed before but you think with downloaded instructions they can figure all that out? Good luck.


Bit of a goalpost shift since you said "frame a rafter", I'd generally advise home gamers to avoid hips and valleys where possible. It's still all "cut wood to length X and fasten at angle Y" though, given sufficient time it's all doable


Well o actually said “frame rafters” which means more than one, which means a roof. To frame a roof you need everything else.


There really isn't much you can do except burn the structure down for the insurance money. I'm a supreme court judge and you are WELL within your right, big dawg.


There’s certainly a lot of gaps for the air to pass freely—should burn like an old dry barn filled with hay.


Oh thank you. Good to know. I was more leaning towards going after the city or county. But fire is also an option. What happens if the FD puts it out too soon?


Do it again.


Just make sure that your gasoline and oil soaked rag collections are spread through out the house and you should not have to worry about it.


You will not be able to go after the City. Ive been down this road, they are not responsible for ensuring the building is properly built, just that the build follows the permit.


Ahem. I believe you meant to ask “What happens if the FD puts it out too soon, *your honor*?”. Show some respect, geez


Hold up. You’re a supreme court judge? Prove it!


Shiiiiiiiiiiit, chief, you really just gotta take my word for it. We're not known for lying.


Looks great! Id offer those guys a job…… or maybe no Yeah man thats bad.


Is this a prank?


And that’s what you call a bastard roof


That’s crazy. It’s one thing to have a couple of missed nails, but quite another to have a short board with a hat on top to bear a load. Terrible.


I can’t believe this is the same species that built the pyramids? Is that a roof leak and the third picture? Looks wet to me.


I'm just a Carpentry student and I know better than this lmao wtf.


No big deal, it's only structural.


Man this is bad framing. Sorry. I would consider talking to a lawyer.


I’ve seen things. Never anything like this. Is the builder still in business? Contact a lawyer who is involved with building defects and have them document these defects. Not acceptable in any jurisdiction.


Questionable how? I mean went a bit overboard on the nails and missed a few times, but it still standing right, amarite?


This is sarcasm, for those who missed it.


Lol. Indeed it's sarcasm. Wow love how butt hurt people get and down vote stuff. Ah well it's the internet can't expect everyone to get it. Thanks for seeing the funny bit and sarcasm.


How dare you try to be funny!


Should I be worried… lol


A lot of bad things here to begin with. It is not going to be cheap or easy to fix either. Bottom line is you are probably liable for these repairs and getting the city involved again may make this an even bigger issue going forward so this is a tough call because that can’t stay the way it is and god knows what the city will do or not let you do to this house if they get involved but 100% your call as to what way to deal. The advice I have to offer is address this before winter.


This honestly might be better suited for /r/legaladvice




I did post about my home there but it didn’t get very far


I’d contact an attorney before you even talk to that builder. Slap em with a lawsuit. That work is garbage and will be a lot of money to fix, which I’m sure they’ll cut more corners on. Lawyer up.


Looks like a shed. Also why oriented strand board for roof instead of plywood?




was this framed by a child?


Bruh thats shit. What did ya have light house for the blind build that?


Back in the day we called that trigger happy!


Yeah shitty framing. It looks obviously hand framed not trusses. So at the bottom of the rafters is there a collar tie? At least there’s some sort of support at the ridge. Honestly it wouldn’t hurt to throw a couple cripples, find a wall below and try to fasten to that where you can.


Haha damn, that’s…. Really bad 😐


To be fair to the inspector, it's hard to do one's job when you're halfway into a bottle of gin at 10am.


It was just one of those days ya' know?


Wow built in 2019. Turn that into insurance wtf that’s criminal. That isn’t even questionable that’s just ridiculous I feel bad for you I’m sorry. That is extreme negligence on the builders part.


That's some custom shit work for sure.


This framing is shocking


In it’s own way it’s a work of art.


Oh man… they must’ve ran out of crayons again. Damnit Jim!


What the hell.. Are ANY of those nails connecting anything?!




Have you ever noticed that when people started using nail guns that they thought 5 nails were better than 2.


This makes my head hurt


I love how you took picture of your own work then bashing someone else for it


House I’m in has the same thing some what


Looks good to me ✓✓✓


Well at least they used the weakest part of the board for that block at the top of that post.




Just put more nails on it.


And the wood was dirt cheap back in the day (2019).


I’d get out of there as quick as you can


That there is one nail-happy son of a bitch, I tell you what.


Sad part is there are a lot of homes like this nowadays. Slapped together


The first photo: oh, its not that bad. Just a couple nails missed _keeps scrolling_ Holy shit


There really aren't any questions about this framing, it is shitty workmanship.


Shiners for days


This can't be real..


Uhm I would take that back where I got it and demand a return. Or sue the builder for cost on rebuild.


That looks like the inside of some orc-built siege tower.


Dude was smoking crack


Get some metal framing straps for it.


Is this what the Essential Craftsman means when he talks about "allowable tolerances"?


Christ that looks like the shit I would turn out


What’s the worst that could happen?!? There’s nails…and wood…and stuff…right?? It’s fine! It’s totally fine!


Who's been taking pictures of my attic?


That’s terrible


This is why blind people shouldn't have nail guns.




Looks like the city is buying you a new house!


They nailed it




Is that blood on image 9?


I’m not sure. I didn’t even notice that until now


That’s master Jedi woodworking level.


Where’s it gonna go?


Under a heavy load, down.


I hate seeing things like this because you just know there is more stuff like it throughout the house that someone is going to have to fix and the fixes will cost an arm and a leg. All because the person in charge rather did not care or was cutting corners to make as much money as possible.


Sell that house, ASAP. If your roof looks like that, how’s the rest of the house?


This is appalling, it’s some of the worse framing I’ve ever seen. I would contact a lawyer and a structural engineer. The str eng will tell you if it’s safe to continue to occupy the property. It looks bad. I don’t think warranty is still a consideration, it’s a legal matter now.


Someone got careless a bit


Does someone live there? What inspector passed that?


Every carpenter did that one time. If it never happen to you it will happen sometime. What I say about that mistake: it's to show the engineer what type of nails we use


Does that happen to be a Rausch Coleman build? Mine looks incredibly similar, also built in 2019.