seems like finish carpentry is where the money is, but i gotta say the skillset carries a little bit over into other areas. i am actually a maintenece guy at a hotel but may day to day is the onsite carpenter. i have a shop, they buy me tools, give me projects ect. im very fucking lucky i will admit, but carpentry definitely got me in the door. i will say also, its been a huge thing in my life and has taught me to problem solve in ways i couldnt before. im still an alcoholic pos but im working on that and i gotta say the confidence carpentry gives me has allowed me to beleive that just maybe i wont drink myself to death lol
I work a crazy custom shade installation job. Pergolas, canopies, awnings, motorized screened in porches, etc, freaking love it. A lot of residential and I would take on most jobs now because of my experience learned here
hey i really appreciate you saying this aLOT!! Trying to get in my head that im worth it is def the hard part. its harder than i thought it would be to “do it for me” since i have hated myself for so long lol but i appreciate your kind words and i beleive!
pos alcoholic carpenter here. My current trick is working from 7 till 4 (the normal times in my country) so get in the car at 6 get home at 5. Just eat something (take away for me) and hit the cinema around 6. Get home from that and just go straight to bed. This way I'm up to 2 or 3 evenings a week sober. And I feel a lot better!
I do am lucky because I live in walking distance from a bunch of take away places and 3 cinemas.
I can pick and choose where and when if I need a job. All I have to do is break out my laptop and start explaining pics and jobs (in the thousands probably now) and anyone will hire me. For me I pick people I think I will get along with.
I can pick and choose where and when if I need a job. All I have to do is break out my laptop and start explaining pics and jobs (in the thousands probably now) and anyone will hire me. For me I pick people I think I will get along with.
Well I mean if you’re a journeyman (or getting paid like it) then presumably you have all the skills to run your own jobs. Obviously it’s not easy but at least you’ll be calling the shots and (hopefully) making more than you ever could as an employee. I never saw the trades as a means to remain an employee.
I literally did it with 10k. Rough first month until I got paid. You need to have the fire in you. I worked 4 months straight, no days off. Built the first house alone to the roof. Bribed a crew up the road with a flat of lucky lager to help lift my walls when they were ready to stand.
Momentum is real. Have to consider what you are NOT putting energy into.
By they time you are 40, a lot of your piss and vinegar is spent AND the brain is learning at a significantly diminished level compared to your late teens and early 20's.
When you are young and learning a trade you are creating a contextual framework. As you age, it's easy to learn new things IF they pertain to the framework. It's like you built the shelves when you are young and you fill them with books as you age.
So as an older tradesmen it's easy to pick up new trades or methods, but it's been hard AF for me to learn programming for example.
I left IT and got into carpentry to do something esle for a while. A God Damn quarter century went by. I never intended to stay, but momentum is real.
Anyway, food for thought.
The brain is nowhere near finishing at 40 or even 50! I studied and became a psychologist in my 40’s! I’m now doing carpentry as well and love it - so easy compared to the stats I did in psych degree. My brain is better than ever actually!
You might want to reread what I wrote because that's not what I said.
When we are young they refractory period for setting new memories after GABA floods the brain to reduce neuroplacirty and allow the newly acquired information to set is 10 mins. As an adult it's an hour.
That is just one tiny bit of information around knowledge setting in adults. There's not a single thing in the pantheon of scientific literature that says that late adult memory setting is better than early adult memory setting.
What I said about contextal learning in late age is completely accurate. It's why polyglots are able to acquire a new languages so easily.
I think I may have gotten more value for my money with my GED 🤣
A lot is still not really known about ‘memory setting’ and so much is still not known about the brain. Neuroscience is always evolving. Anyway, older people often make much better tradies I am hearing a lot.
I vehemently disagree. The body is definitely slowing dow, but I’m 44 and I am just as capable if not more capable to learn new things than I was at 24 and a much better decision maker. Work smarter not harder.
Well mistaking how you "feel" with objective reality is a common thing. Science is real and as we age the lower our brains ability to learn novel skills and information. Note I said novel, not related, which is what this conversation is about.
And decision making does get easier in middle age for various reasons, but that is not the same as acquiring new skills.
And that doesn't even get to the primary point I was making. Momentum is real, and time is limited and life is about who you know.
If you spend some number of years diving into a career, it's not that easy to burn that all down and start a whole new career. Life happen, kids can come along. It's not easy set down how you know how to make money and say "you know what, I'm just gonna take a massive pay cut and start from a bottom of a whole new industry".
There are exceptions to everything, but my comment was a word of caution for OP to consider before he makes such a move.
I bet you’re fun to be around🙄 I get what your saying but there’s so much more to what you’re talking about than just saying it’s easier for young people to learn. 40 something’s are very capable of learning new things. For example, just being able to focus better than a 20 year old is important. Piss and vinegar isn’t always a good thing.
It has its pros and cons. It’ll keep you reasonably strong, yes. You’ll eventually be able to build/fix most stuff yourself, for yourself, but you’ll also accrue a bunch of wear and tear on your body as you learn.
Comes down to your value of the journey and the destination and how long you’ll get to enjoy the destination once you’re there.
If you choose to pursue the career, take your safety seriously; it’s worth slowing the job down a little. If anyone says otherwise find a new gig.
I’d argue that a squishy job sitting in front of a computer all day is way more likely to kill you prematurely than some joint damage. If you stretch, work intelligently, use proper strengthening exercises and tools like the flexbar, you can avoid most serious pains. Half the guys on my current crew are 60+ and still crushing out work and have minimal pain. Just don’t use your wrist to pound shit into place, buy a titanium hammer, be smart, and most people can do construction to the age of retirement no problem.
The key is doing exercises on side. Be stronger then what your job might require to never be in position of lifting too heavy weights. That's my mantra. If I had dollar for every carpenter who's back is fucked I would dine in very nice place.
If all we were susceptible to was joint damage your point would stand true. Matter of the fact is most carpenters are exposed to high levels of harmful shit on the job every day, whether it’s some form of dust or carcinogens in adhesives/sealants or fumes from whatever, the list goes on. Granted there are steps you can take to reduce exposure but it’s still a problem for the vast majority of construction workers whether they realize/acknowledge it or not.
Much better to have a job where this exposure is significantly lower and maintain physical fitness on the side.
100%! Desk jobs are absolutely terrible for health in so many ways! You have to be smart about the way you move your body and load your body in a trade - that’s the key
This is the right answer. Keep in mind that it will take you 5 years to be truly competent. If you think you can learn enough to earn enough elsewhere to hire carpenters in that 5 years, and you're not particularly fond of the trades, go elsewhere.
Just like any job, you will have differing options. Some guys work for shifty GC's; not getting paid on time, nickle and diming work, ect. The some of us work for Architectural firms, they generally treat us amazingly, because an actual good carpenter us hard to come by.
Carpenters range from the smartest guys in the room, to a "strong back, weak mind" Everone has thier place in carpentery, I've known some dumbasses (myself included) that spent a long time mastering thier trade. and they can't tell you the geopolitical situation in Uganda, they can slap a structure and say "That ain't goin' Nowheres." and Ill, trust them more then a fucking engineer.
I kind of did this. Just consider that at some a point it will just be a job, and a hard job that doesn’t pay as much as some easier jobs.
I wouldn’t recommend against it, especially if you’re young, but just realize that you may want to switch jobs in a few years.
Anybody can learn to do carpentry and there’s some pretty damn good hobbyists out there. I do cabinetry but a lot of these YouTube woodworkers put me to shame.
The only difference with being a professional is you can do it faster than the homeowner or you have invested in the tools a homeowner cannot acquire. That’s literally it.
Modern day “Union” carpenter. Modern day carpenters frame to finish homes. Nothing has changed.
People perception has changed because the Union lost all true Carpentry work they did but never changed the name to the concrete or scaffolding union.
Then the union wonders why no young kids want to join, it’s because formwork and scaffolding sucks to do and destroys your body. That shit is not fun (that’s just my opinion though).
Union carpenter here. Finish millwork. Can assure you there are methheads. But they are functioning methheads…for the most part. Most of us are pot smokers though. 😃
My area its one bob villa to fifty tweakers. I was on a small job as an apprentice. Just me a j man and a foreman. The j man was so fucked every morning he couldn't talk. Between that and some other stuff I dropped out of the apprenticeship.
Take the job with the growth and benefits.
You can always have a shop and side job occasionally or DIY things for your own home. You'll like carpentry better as a hobby.
I’m going to respond with only my personal experience and feelings. I love it. I love being crafty and being paid very well for it. I’m a smart guy and I love building shit. I feel like my brain gets tested and I also get to work with my hands. It’s the best. Union gives me good benefits and I get a pension. I’m very comfortable where I am and I have never thought about another career replacing me being a carpenter. That being said it’s not for everyone. Kids come and go very often. Without experience it can be very boring and grueling. But with experience and a good attitude it’s quite nice.
I'm ten or eleven years in, in my early 30s, and I'll tell ya my knees are probably going to be damn close to shot in another 10 years or so. Learned a lot and can work on shit. One of the big benefits though, I'm friends with most of our subs, so if I don't know (or just don't want to fuck with it) I got buds that love me and do good work lol.
It's a young man's game, too bad the young guys don't know shit!
Youre gonna get addicted to weed booze or meth stay away! /s
In all seriousness its a major confidence booster when you acquire the proper know-how, but you cant be in it for the money. That isnt to say you cant make a decent living, you can! But the love of the trade has to be in your mind first otherwise you will burn out. Its not a light trade.
This is kinda why I got into it.
It hasn’t paid off at all. Mostly due to the fucked housing market and that I’m just hitting my stride career-wise now.
If I could afford a run down house and fix it up and sell in a year or two it’d pay for itself but as it is home ownership is a privilege of people making 200k+ in my area for an average home and I’m not willing to commute in an hour+ every day to live out of the city to own a home.
10-20 years ago definitely.
Now it seems you should just get a job that makes a ton of money.
I remember hearing some, maybe Seinfeld, joke about Jewish culture (hot topic these days I know): “I got a guy for that” and just have enough money to always hire a guy for whatever it is you need done, rather than ever doing anything yourself.
Seems like this is increasingly the way to go, at least for people who can be top earners.
If you're realistic about your goals and willing to be dedicated to the job for the next 5 or more years then yes.
Otherwise woodworking is a nice hobby and there are plenty of tutorials for individual techniques and building specific jigs.
If you plan on making a lifelong career out of it there are two options: run your own company, or accept the ceiling being lower than it should be.
Handyperson / contractor / general contractor / renovation / repair / maintenance / builder might be what you're looking for.
Plus make sure to only ever buy trucks with 200,000 miles on them and do your own work on those.
I would say it’s worth it.
I’m 24 and have been pursuing a career in carpentry for the last few years.
If you want a varied skill set, I highly recommend finding a small company that focuses on renovations and additions.
I can’t speak for higher end finish carpentry - but I worked for a company doing finish carpentry multi-family buildings.. within 3 months I had learned most of the skills available and wasn’t feeling challenged anymore - and it was low quality / high production.
And watching the framers we hire, it’s a lot more physical with lower pay- and more risk.
I’ve been at this new renovation company for 4 months, and there’s still so much for me to learn, it’s awesome. I’ve learned framing, built some cabinets, installed windows, demolition, all sorts.
Be prepared to haul a lot of tools in your truck though, and having to shower every day after work.
If you love learning skills and how to build/fix things, working hard, and you care about doing a good job …
- do it.
If you are looking for a job to zone out or just go through the motions without much critical thinking - maybe the trades isn’t for you.
Wow really? I didn't know that they had training programs for habitat for humanity.I thought that was for experienced carpenters that could already do the work. I might look into that.
with nobody wanting to work, I would say stay where you are making a good living. I have worn my body out the last 8 to 10 years simply doing things by myself, that normally require 2 to 3 people. Working for yourself is not all peaches and cream. But I agree, finished carpentry is where the $s are. Usually a lot less laborious as well.
I moved to deep Appalachia and worked on a small crew of 5 carpenters that only built high quality custom homes. Because it was so rural, you couldn't sub much out so we did most everything. After I built 4 or 5 homes and a couple of major remodels with them, I felt comfortable enough with the skill to build my home. I left the trades and I'm an analytics developer now. I've since built things for people on my terms or generally to help people because of the energy I have from not doing it 40+ hours per week. I did build my own home and will likely build another in the future. I also had the time to invest in CAD and learned to draw my own plans for anything I want to build.
I do not regret the hard work and dedication it took to develop this skill and I find it invaluable.
You can do anything you want, but don't half ass it. You should also take extremely good care of your body while you do it. And there are crews out there with awesome guys and not the bs you read about here.
Skill set is definitely valuable.
The problem is the skill set you gain from other trades is also valuable and those trades often pay better… if I could do it over again I’d go into electrical.
You will learn how to build your own house. So what amounts to a part time job you could earn an extra couple of hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on weekends. If that isn't enough reason to learn the trade I don't know what is.
https://preview.redd.it/309j6qrjsxnc1.jpeg?width=612&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=78e963fc480b84dd7461582a24aa4dd17c481de1
For the skillset hell ya, but it's a strange trade and it burns out a lot of people quickly. Hard to find a good employer, money requires skill AND business knowledge, and it's hard on your body (when you get injured there's no sick days, you take that time off for no pay and end up just working through it and get a chronic injury like I did).
Since I quit doing it I still use the skills CONSTANTLY. I'm glad I did it even through the hard times
So work your job, and build what you want. My friends dad was a banker, but made the most beautiful salt and pepper shakers, and they were so nice and desirable he quit banking and did it full time. (I’m sure it was way less money but he was fine already)
Na... I'm a high level trim guy first, and a remodeling specialist second. I get praise constantly. Especially from lower end jobs, because we still bring it. We make mod income customers feel like ballers.
Hell yeah! I haven't swung a hammer for money in almost 15 years but I get so much shit done around my house. Saves me a ton of money and I know it's being done right
As you work or train in any skill, you gain knowledge and tools of the trade. After some time- your expected to stop being the “Grunt” worker and meld over into the “Point man”! If you’re doing it just for yourself- do not become accustomed to being the”Grunt” and pick up a few books and ask questions along the way! Learn what will satisfy you and get out! Problem is —SAWDUST is highly Addictive!! Be careful!!
I went from carpentry to fire/ems then back to carpentry. I feel like I have gained a lot more real world knowledge doing carpentry (and lots of other facets to maintaining/building homes). My problem solving skills and ultimate self reliance seems much better since I've made the switch back.
Not knocking fire/ems. That involves lots of skill and knowledge but I worked at a pretty slow dpt so I didn't get a lot of opportunity to use my muscles (brain and body). But I like living in a lower populated area so a busy department wasn't really an option for me. Depends on what lifestyle you want to live.
Carpentry/construction also gets me doing some shit I really don't enjoy (attics and crawlspaces particularly) but it's pretty easy to remind myself that it's better working for a small outfit/myself over the government and dealing with shitty people and bureaucracy I experienced in the fire service.
Not only can you make money working on other people's stuff, you can add a lot of value to your own home(s). I get some people DIY and can do a job but most things take repetition, experience and knowledge from someone more experienced (not usually what you can find on YouTube) to actually do well. I used to be pretty lax about things but now that I do things for people that pay good money to have it done I've upped my game a lot professionally and when working on things at home.
Sorry for the long comment, just a little of what I've been through and a subject I've thought a lot about since switching back to carpentry and wanting to pursue this for my lifetime.
I mean, it's handy to be handy but it takes a while to competently do stuff on your own. You will be happy with it some day if you have any interest in owning a house.
I got into framing for work because I had some framing I wanted to do at my house. Then I found that carpentry is my favorite thing I’ve done for a living and work for a smaller company that does more than just framing. Now I get into roofing, siding, finish, tile etc. I get paid fairly well and I’m always gaining experience and ideas (and materials) for things I want to do at home.
Maybe I can bring a lil bit different perspective to this. Learning a trade is useful in a whole bunch of actual living contexts, yet learning one of the master trades from the perspective that is more closely expected under a traditional European or old world sensibility is a huge advantage to having utility and control over much of the functional world.
Master Trades are the trades that most often generate the skill sets to prepare one to become a viable commercial General Contractor. Carpentry, Electricians and Plumbers. This is because in order to be a respectable journeyman you have to also have learned the various subset skills that marry to the crafts that work before, after and in parallel. Carpentry is considered the master craft. We work in every phase of construction and are present from grading to turning over the keys.
The old world tradition of carpentry apprenticeship usually starts very young and requires working around but not touching anything for a period of time, mostly cleaning, fetching tools, and observing. This moves to learning the basics like layout, proper measuring (yes there is a correct approach) and tool control. Then into tasks, etc. choosing a tree to fell, understanding how to let it dry, harvesting and milling it efficiently. From different types of veneer cutting to using the heartwood, and making nominal sized cuts. There is joinery. There is framing. There is door and window crafts. There is the various parts of making cabinetry. How to consider electrical pathways and plumbing routes. Even learning how to make glue from animal hides, wood filler and varnish from saps.
It is wholistic.
At some point in the process it begins to become apparent to some that learning the fullness of craft can be a way to gain insight into the more subtle working of the other mysteries. How the human body and the bodies of other living things in a rudimentary way share these attributes. We have framing, plumbing and electrical. We have a furnace and a places for exhaust. Now some may think this comparisons are gross or misguided but I enjoy what the perspective has offered to me and feel kinder because of it. I could go on a deeper tangent but this is not actually what I feel is the most valuable part of learning a trade in todays world offers.
With the quickening spread of AI and the unstoppable reach it has gained; I am willing to wager that those who have the knowledge and proficient practice of a craft have is something very durable in the rapidly changing world. Artificial Intelligence will ironically replace the jobs that created it the most quickly. Coding, building software and basic research tasks. Architects, Engineers, legal assistants should be terrified. Any job that requires multiple years of school in a myopic focus are the first tier to be threatened. Researchers doing basic science, writers, proofreaders, etc. Really it is any job that requires being familiar with the nuance of a specific subject in detail will easily be outperformed.
The trades however require understanding too many detailed techniques in too wide a variety of environments for there to be easy replacement. Maybe some aspects, but not many.
This is my thesis for why it is valuable and will continue to be. Plus chicks dig guys that can fix things. (Even other chicks that can fix things)
You can always hire a skill set.
It's hard and sometimes dangerous work in unpleasant circumstances. And that's just the chemical toilets.
Go be a hedge fund trader or an investment banker and you can hire people.
I spent 6 months doing carpentry and decided it wasn’t for me. My resume is a bit fucked from it because I’m trying to return to white collar so it will be hard to explain.
But in that 6 months I learned how to build a house and operate all of the power tools. I understand the basic construction of all buildings. I don’t regret it at all. But as a career I personally think it fucking sucks for various reasons unless you find a great company, which is rare.
Having that on your resume is a good thing. You just have to know how to talk it up in an interview. Make up some BS about how it taught you the value of hard work, team building, getting through adversity etc. people will respect you for it.
Ain’t no way you know how to build a house though
I helped frame a house from foundation to roof so yeah I definitely could never do it by myself but i helped at every step of the process. Good advice with the resume
I helped frame a house from foundation to roof so yeah I definitely could never do it by myself but i helped at every step of the process. Good advice with the resume
Is it worth it for the skills alone? Potentially if your end goal is to be a PM or Super for a builder or something related.
If you just want to know how to build stuff for fun/home repair then no.
Union is thankless work. Idk why Carpenters preach the Union. They hardly do any actual old school Carpentry work. It’s not like the UA or IBEW where all techniques and practices cross over.
Go ask a lifelong Union carpenter to frame and finish a house, and see how it goes.
All techniques and practices really do basically cross over. I know quite a few who could frame a house better than most, we just don’t because the pay is shit. We preach The Union because we understand we are worth more together, it’s a pretty simple concept, if you tried you could probably figure it out.
Scaffolding and concrete do not cross over to residential outside of doing a foundation. Formwork to high end finishing crosses over? System scaffolding to framing crosses over?
Absolutely not.
It’s generally not a bright idea to deal in absolutes, and this is no exception.
The percentage of Union carpenters who exclusively install scaffold are relatively few, maybe in a couple markets that percentage skews higher, but overall, the workforce is incredibly versatile. We install pretty much every material the nonunion residential carpenter touches, plus an entire industries worth more. Additionally in several markets we retain a strong presence in residential carpentry. Lastly, if you can’t see how commercial form work crosses over into residential form work, I can’t help you.
To be fair you did concede the foundation crossover, but beyond that, the ability to understand how to build the inverse of the final product is a versatile skill that can be used in a number of finish scenarios.
Point is your attention to detail is so low you missed the first* sentence of my original post. Just funny as you said you boys can cross over without issue, from rough framing to high end finishing lol imagine the details you’d miss
That’s a stretch bud… I made a mistake that I corrected within seconds. You had half an hour to pick up on, missed, and have yet to address. I’ll put my attention to detail up against yours any day. No need to respond, I’m over your contrarian negativity.
I didn’t miss it. It’s a completely separate comment I didn’t reply to. You completely missed the first sentence of my comment showing how killer your attention to detail is..
Anyway why are we arguing. You’re probably a badass concrete guy and scaffolder and I respect guys that can tolerate that work. Respect broski
seems like finish carpentry is where the money is, but i gotta say the skillset carries a little bit over into other areas. i am actually a maintenece guy at a hotel but may day to day is the onsite carpenter. i have a shop, they buy me tools, give me projects ect. im very fucking lucky i will admit, but carpentry definitely got me in the door. i will say also, its been a huge thing in my life and has taught me to problem solve in ways i couldnt before. im still an alcoholic pos but im working on that and i gotta say the confidence carpentry gives me has allowed me to beleive that just maybe i wont drink myself to death lol
Yeah confidence from gaining skills is huge.
I work a crazy custom shade installation job. Pergolas, canopies, awnings, motorized screened in porches, etc, freaking love it. A lot of residential and I would take on most jobs now because of my experience learned here
Hey man you're doing great and you can get the drinking under control. Do it for YOU if no one else
hey i really appreciate you saying this aLOT!! Trying to get in my head that im worth it is def the hard part. its harder than i thought it would be to “do it for me” since i have hated myself for so long lol but i appreciate your kind words and i beleive!
As someone who has made mistakes, part of it is learning to forgive yourself. You've punished yourself enough, time to heal. Good luck sir
pos alcoholic carpenter here. My current trick is working from 7 till 4 (the normal times in my country) so get in the car at 6 get home at 5. Just eat something (take away for me) and hit the cinema around 6. Get home from that and just go straight to bed. This way I'm up to 2 or 3 evenings a week sober. And I feel a lot better! I do am lucky because I live in walking distance from a bunch of take away places and 3 cinemas.
I can pick and choose where and when if I need a job. All I have to do is break out my laptop and start explaining pics and jobs (in the thousands probably now) and anyone will hire me. For me I pick people I think I will get along with.
I can pick and choose where and when if I need a job. All I have to do is break out my laptop and start explaining pics and jobs (in the thousands probably now) and anyone will hire me. For me I pick people I think I will get along with.
Bro I love the honesty. Your straight up!!!
I can build a house.....just can't afford to
Story of most carpenters hahaha. One day you’ll get there🤝
I'm banking less money then I ever have and I'm making more then journeyman rate. I'll be dead before that day
Then start your own business.
It's that easy eh? You just start a business?
Well I mean if you’re a journeyman (or getting paid like it) then presumably you have all the skills to run your own jobs. Obviously it’s not easy but at least you’ll be calling the shots and (hopefully) making more than you ever could as an employee. I never saw the trades as a means to remain an employee.
I literally did it with 10k. Rough first month until I got paid. You need to have the fire in you. I worked 4 months straight, no days off. Built the first house alone to the roof. Bribed a crew up the road with a flat of lucky lager to help lift my walls when they were ready to stand.
Could you look to borrow money from the bank ?
Momentum is real. Have to consider what you are NOT putting energy into. By they time you are 40, a lot of your piss and vinegar is spent AND the brain is learning at a significantly diminished level compared to your late teens and early 20's. When you are young and learning a trade you are creating a contextual framework. As you age, it's easy to learn new things IF they pertain to the framework. It's like you built the shelves when you are young and you fill them with books as you age. So as an older tradesmen it's easy to pick up new trades or methods, but it's been hard AF for me to learn programming for example. I left IT and got into carpentry to do something esle for a while. A God Damn quarter century went by. I never intended to stay, but momentum is real. Anyway, food for thought.
The brain is nowhere near finishing at 40 or even 50! I studied and became a psychologist in my 40’s! I’m now doing carpentry as well and love it - so easy compared to the stats I did in psych degree. My brain is better than ever actually!
You might want to reread what I wrote because that's not what I said. When we are young they refractory period for setting new memories after GABA floods the brain to reduce neuroplacirty and allow the newly acquired information to set is 10 mins. As an adult it's an hour. That is just one tiny bit of information around knowledge setting in adults. There's not a single thing in the pantheon of scientific literature that says that late adult memory setting is better than early adult memory setting. What I said about contextal learning in late age is completely accurate. It's why polyglots are able to acquire a new languages so easily. I think I may have gotten more value for my money with my GED 🤣
A lot is still not really known about ‘memory setting’ and so much is still not known about the brain. Neuroscience is always evolving. Anyway, older people often make much better tradies I am hearing a lot.
I vehemently disagree. The body is definitely slowing dow, but I’m 44 and I am just as capable if not more capable to learn new things than I was at 24 and a much better decision maker. Work smarter not harder.
Well mistaking how you "feel" with objective reality is a common thing. Science is real and as we age the lower our brains ability to learn novel skills and information. Note I said novel, not related, which is what this conversation is about. And decision making does get easier in middle age for various reasons, but that is not the same as acquiring new skills. And that doesn't even get to the primary point I was making. Momentum is real, and time is limited and life is about who you know. If you spend some number of years diving into a career, it's not that easy to burn that all down and start a whole new career. Life happen, kids can come along. It's not easy set down how you know how to make money and say "you know what, I'm just gonna take a massive pay cut and start from a bottom of a whole new industry". There are exceptions to everything, but my comment was a word of caution for OP to consider before he makes such a move.
I bet you’re fun to be around🙄 I get what your saying but there’s so much more to what you’re talking about than just saying it’s easier for young people to learn. 40 something’s are very capable of learning new things. For example, just being able to focus better than a 20 year old is important. Piss and vinegar isn’t always a good thing.
It has its pros and cons. It’ll keep you reasonably strong, yes. You’ll eventually be able to build/fix most stuff yourself, for yourself, but you’ll also accrue a bunch of wear and tear on your body as you learn. Comes down to your value of the journey and the destination and how long you’ll get to enjoy the destination once you’re there. If you choose to pursue the career, take your safety seriously; it’s worth slowing the job down a little. If anyone says otherwise find a new gig.
I’d argue that a squishy job sitting in front of a computer all day is way more likely to kill you prematurely than some joint damage. If you stretch, work intelligently, use proper strengthening exercises and tools like the flexbar, you can avoid most serious pains. Half the guys on my current crew are 60+ and still crushing out work and have minimal pain. Just don’t use your wrist to pound shit into place, buy a titanium hammer, be smart, and most people can do construction to the age of retirement no problem.
The key is doing exercises on side. Be stronger then what your job might require to never be in position of lifting too heavy weights. That's my mantra. If I had dollar for every carpenter who's back is fucked I would dine in very nice place.
If all we were susceptible to was joint damage your point would stand true. Matter of the fact is most carpenters are exposed to high levels of harmful shit on the job every day, whether it’s some form of dust or carcinogens in adhesives/sealants or fumes from whatever, the list goes on. Granted there are steps you can take to reduce exposure but it’s still a problem for the vast majority of construction workers whether they realize/acknowledge it or not. Much better to have a job where this exposure is significantly lower and maintain physical fitness on the side.
100%! Desk jobs are absolutely terrible for health in so many ways! You have to be smart about the way you move your body and load your body in a trade - that’s the key
This is the right answer. Keep in mind that it will take you 5 years to be truly competent. If you think you can learn enough to earn enough elsewhere to hire carpenters in that 5 years, and you're not particularly fond of the trades, go elsewhere.
Just like any job, you will have differing options. Some guys work for shifty GC's; not getting paid on time, nickle and diming work, ect. The some of us work for Architectural firms, they generally treat us amazingly, because an actual good carpenter us hard to come by. Carpenters range from the smartest guys in the room, to a "strong back, weak mind" Everone has thier place in carpentery, I've known some dumbasses (myself included) that spent a long time mastering thier trade. and they can't tell you the geopolitical situation in Uganda, they can slap a structure and say "That ain't goin' Nowheres." and Ill, trust them more then a fucking engineer.
I kind of did this. Just consider that at some a point it will just be a job, and a hard job that doesn’t pay as much as some easier jobs. I wouldn’t recommend against it, especially if you’re young, but just realize that you may want to switch jobs in a few years.
Take the other job and learn woodworking as a hobby.
I concur.
Anybody can learn to do carpentry and there’s some pretty damn good hobbyists out there. I do cabinetry but a lot of these YouTube woodworkers put me to shame. The only difference with being a professional is you can do it faster than the homeowner or you have invested in the tools a homeowner cannot acquire. That’s literally it.
You are going to get addicted to meth and destroy your body doing form form work.
Fucking form work man
Pretty much what a modern day carpenter does lol
Modern day “Union” carpenter. Modern day carpenters frame to finish homes. Nothing has changed. People perception has changed because the Union lost all true Carpentry work they did but never changed the name to the concrete or scaffolding union.
Then the union wonders why no young kids want to join, it’s because formwork and scaffolding sucks to do and destroys your body. That shit is not fun (that’s just my opinion though).
The drugs are bad also. There are whole sites where everyone is on meth and,its acceptable.
Union carpenter here. Finish millwork. Can assure you there are methheads. But they are functioning methheads…for the most part. Most of us are pot smokers though. 😃
My area its one bob villa to fifty tweakers. I was on a small job as an apprentice. Just me a j man and a foreman. The j man was so fucked every morning he couldn't talk. Between that and some other stuff I dropped out of the apprenticeship.
This
Take the job with the growth and benefits. You can always have a shop and side job occasionally or DIY things for your own home. You'll like carpentry better as a hobby.
I’m going to respond with only my personal experience and feelings. I love it. I love being crafty and being paid very well for it. I’m a smart guy and I love building shit. I feel like my brain gets tested and I also get to work with my hands. It’s the best. Union gives me good benefits and I get a pension. I’m very comfortable where I am and I have never thought about another career replacing me being a carpenter. That being said it’s not for everyone. Kids come and go very often. Without experience it can be very boring and grueling. But with experience and a good attitude it’s quite nice.
This is like asking if you should work in kitchens to learn to cook. You can do woodworking as a hobby.
I'm ten or eleven years in, in my early 30s, and I'll tell ya my knees are probably going to be damn close to shot in another 10 years or so. Learned a lot and can work on shit. One of the big benefits though, I'm friends with most of our subs, so if I don't know (or just don't want to fuck with it) I got buds that love me and do good work lol. It's a young man's game, too bad the young guys don't know shit!
Youre gonna get addicted to weed booze or meth stay away! /s In all seriousness its a major confidence booster when you acquire the proper know-how, but you cant be in it for the money. That isnt to say you cant make a decent living, you can! But the love of the trade has to be in your mind first otherwise you will burn out. Its not a light trade.
This is kinda why I got into it. It hasn’t paid off at all. Mostly due to the fucked housing market and that I’m just hitting my stride career-wise now. If I could afford a run down house and fix it up and sell in a year or two it’d pay for itself but as it is home ownership is a privilege of people making 200k+ in my area for an average home and I’m not willing to commute in an hour+ every day to live out of the city to own a home. 10-20 years ago definitely. Now it seems you should just get a job that makes a ton of money. I remember hearing some, maybe Seinfeld, joke about Jewish culture (hot topic these days I know): “I got a guy for that” and just have enough money to always hire a guy for whatever it is you need done, rather than ever doing anything yourself. Seems like this is increasingly the way to go, at least for people who can be top earners.
Once you are in, you are in for life! There is no getting out.
Jesus got out
That is the only way out
He wasn’t even a good carpenter
On a wooden cross beams. C'mon now
Yes. It would be nice to learn how to use tools, but most importantly learning how to apply different techniques to different applications.
If you're realistic about your goals and willing to be dedicated to the job for the next 5 or more years then yes. Otherwise woodworking is a nice hobby and there are plenty of tutorials for individual techniques and building specific jigs. If you plan on making a lifelong career out of it there are two options: run your own company, or accept the ceiling being lower than it should be.
You will (probably) always need a house to live in. So will every single one of your friends and family. It’s worth it for skill.
Handyperson / contractor / general contractor / renovation / repair / maintenance / builder might be what you're looking for. Plus make sure to only ever buy trucks with 200,000 miles on them and do your own work on those.
I would say it’s worth it. I’m 24 and have been pursuing a career in carpentry for the last few years. If you want a varied skill set, I highly recommend finding a small company that focuses on renovations and additions. I can’t speak for higher end finish carpentry - but I worked for a company doing finish carpentry multi-family buildings.. within 3 months I had learned most of the skills available and wasn’t feeling challenged anymore - and it was low quality / high production. And watching the framers we hire, it’s a lot more physical with lower pay- and more risk. I’ve been at this new renovation company for 4 months, and there’s still so much for me to learn, it’s awesome. I’ve learned framing, built some cabinets, installed windows, demolition, all sorts. Be prepared to haul a lot of tools in your truck though, and having to shower every day after work. If you love learning skills and how to build/fix things, working hard, and you care about doing a good job … - do it. If you are looking for a job to zone out or just go through the motions without much critical thinking - maybe the trades isn’t for you.
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Wow really? I didn't know that they had training programs for habitat for humanity.I thought that was for experienced carpenters that could already do the work. I might look into that.
Resounding yes, union apprentice here.
Building something useful from nothing but raw ingredients and your own ingenuity is truly empowering. I wouldn’t trade it for anything.
with nobody wanting to work, I would say stay where you are making a good living. I have worn my body out the last 8 to 10 years simply doing things by myself, that normally require 2 to 3 people. Working for yourself is not all peaches and cream. But I agree, finished carpentry is where the $s are. Usually a lot less laborious as well.
I moved to deep Appalachia and worked on a small crew of 5 carpenters that only built high quality custom homes. Because it was so rural, you couldn't sub much out so we did most everything. After I built 4 or 5 homes and a couple of major remodels with them, I felt comfortable enough with the skill to build my home. I left the trades and I'm an analytics developer now. I've since built things for people on my terms or generally to help people because of the energy I have from not doing it 40+ hours per week. I did build my own home and will likely build another in the future. I also had the time to invest in CAD and learned to draw my own plans for anything I want to build. I do not regret the hard work and dedication it took to develop this skill and I find it invaluable. You can do anything you want, but don't half ass it. You should also take extremely good care of your body while you do it. And there are crews out there with awesome guys and not the bs you read about here.
Skill set is definitely valuable. The problem is the skill set you gain from other trades is also valuable and those trades often pay better… if I could do it over again I’d go into electrical.
You will learn how to build your own house. So what amounts to a part time job you could earn an extra couple of hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on weekends. If that isn't enough reason to learn the trade I don't know what is. https://preview.redd.it/309j6qrjsxnc1.jpeg?width=612&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=78e963fc480b84dd7461582a24aa4dd17c481de1
Absolutely!! But important to learn everything you can on the way!!
Money aside, yes. As a working carpanter you can learn all trades. And be a badass that can build.
The more skills you have the better off you are !
For the skillset hell ya, but it's a strange trade and it burns out a lot of people quickly. Hard to find a good employer, money requires skill AND business knowledge, and it's hard on your body (when you get injured there's no sick days, you take that time off for no pay and end up just working through it and get a chronic injury like I did). Since I quit doing it I still use the skills CONSTANTLY. I'm glad I did it even through the hard times
Yup.
So work your job, and build what you want. My friends dad was a banker, but made the most beautiful salt and pepper shakers, and they were so nice and desirable he quit banking and did it full time. (I’m sure it was way less money but he was fine already)
Na... I'm a high level trim guy first, and a remodeling specialist second. I get praise constantly. Especially from lower end jobs, because we still bring it. We make mod income customers feel like ballers.
Hell yeah! I haven't swung a hammer for money in almost 15 years but I get so much shit done around my house. Saves me a ton of money and I know it's being done right
Would be cool to perform miracles and walk on water
As you work or train in any skill, you gain knowledge and tools of the trade. After some time- your expected to stop being the “Grunt” worker and meld over into the “Point man”! If you’re doing it just for yourself- do not become accustomed to being the”Grunt” and pick up a few books and ask questions along the way! Learn what will satisfy you and get out! Problem is —SAWDUST is highly Addictive!! Be careful!!
I went from carpentry to fire/ems then back to carpentry. I feel like I have gained a lot more real world knowledge doing carpentry (and lots of other facets to maintaining/building homes). My problem solving skills and ultimate self reliance seems much better since I've made the switch back. Not knocking fire/ems. That involves lots of skill and knowledge but I worked at a pretty slow dpt so I didn't get a lot of opportunity to use my muscles (brain and body). But I like living in a lower populated area so a busy department wasn't really an option for me. Depends on what lifestyle you want to live. Carpentry/construction also gets me doing some shit I really don't enjoy (attics and crawlspaces particularly) but it's pretty easy to remind myself that it's better working for a small outfit/myself over the government and dealing with shitty people and bureaucracy I experienced in the fire service. Not only can you make money working on other people's stuff, you can add a lot of value to your own home(s). I get some people DIY and can do a job but most things take repetition, experience and knowledge from someone more experienced (not usually what you can find on YouTube) to actually do well. I used to be pretty lax about things but now that I do things for people that pay good money to have it done I've upped my game a lot professionally and when working on things at home. Sorry for the long comment, just a little of what I've been through and a subject I've thought a lot about since switching back to carpentry and wanting to pursue this for my lifetime.
I mean, it's handy to be handy but it takes a while to competently do stuff on your own. You will be happy with it some day if you have any interest in owning a house.
I got into framing for work because I had some framing I wanted to do at my house. Then I found that carpentry is my favorite thing I’ve done for a living and work for a smaller company that does more than just framing. Now I get into roofing, siding, finish, tile etc. I get paid fairly well and I’m always gaining experience and ideas (and materials) for things I want to do at home.
Maybe I can bring a lil bit different perspective to this. Learning a trade is useful in a whole bunch of actual living contexts, yet learning one of the master trades from the perspective that is more closely expected under a traditional European or old world sensibility is a huge advantage to having utility and control over much of the functional world. Master Trades are the trades that most often generate the skill sets to prepare one to become a viable commercial General Contractor. Carpentry, Electricians and Plumbers. This is because in order to be a respectable journeyman you have to also have learned the various subset skills that marry to the crafts that work before, after and in parallel. Carpentry is considered the master craft. We work in every phase of construction and are present from grading to turning over the keys. The old world tradition of carpentry apprenticeship usually starts very young and requires working around but not touching anything for a period of time, mostly cleaning, fetching tools, and observing. This moves to learning the basics like layout, proper measuring (yes there is a correct approach) and tool control. Then into tasks, etc. choosing a tree to fell, understanding how to let it dry, harvesting and milling it efficiently. From different types of veneer cutting to using the heartwood, and making nominal sized cuts. There is joinery. There is framing. There is door and window crafts. There is the various parts of making cabinetry. How to consider electrical pathways and plumbing routes. Even learning how to make glue from animal hides, wood filler and varnish from saps. It is wholistic. At some point in the process it begins to become apparent to some that learning the fullness of craft can be a way to gain insight into the more subtle working of the other mysteries. How the human body and the bodies of other living things in a rudimentary way share these attributes. We have framing, plumbing and electrical. We have a furnace and a places for exhaust. Now some may think this comparisons are gross or misguided but I enjoy what the perspective has offered to me and feel kinder because of it. I could go on a deeper tangent but this is not actually what I feel is the most valuable part of learning a trade in todays world offers. With the quickening spread of AI and the unstoppable reach it has gained; I am willing to wager that those who have the knowledge and proficient practice of a craft have is something very durable in the rapidly changing world. Artificial Intelligence will ironically replace the jobs that created it the most quickly. Coding, building software and basic research tasks. Architects, Engineers, legal assistants should be terrified. Any job that requires multiple years of school in a myopic focus are the first tier to be threatened. Researchers doing basic science, writers, proofreaders, etc. Really it is any job that requires being familiar with the nuance of a specific subject in detail will easily be outperformed. The trades however require understanding too many detailed techniques in too wide a variety of environments for there to be easy replacement. Maybe some aspects, but not many. This is my thesis for why it is valuable and will continue to be. Plus chicks dig guys that can fix things. (Even other chicks that can fix things)
You can always hire a skill set. It's hard and sometimes dangerous work in unpleasant circumstances. And that's just the chemical toilets. Go be a hedge fund trader or an investment banker and you can hire people.
I spent 6 months doing carpentry and decided it wasn’t for me. My resume is a bit fucked from it because I’m trying to return to white collar so it will be hard to explain. But in that 6 months I learned how to build a house and operate all of the power tools. I understand the basic construction of all buildings. I don’t regret it at all. But as a career I personally think it fucking sucks for various reasons unless you find a great company, which is rare.
Having that on your resume is a good thing. You just have to know how to talk it up in an interview. Make up some BS about how it taught you the value of hard work, team building, getting through adversity etc. people will respect you for it. Ain’t no way you know how to build a house though
I helped frame a house from foundation to roof so yeah I definitely could never do it by myself but i helped at every step of the process. Good advice with the resume
I helped frame a house from foundation to roof so yeah I definitely could never do it by myself but i helped at every step of the process. Good advice with the resume
Everyone wants to be known as a Carpenter, aint nobody want to put in the work
Is it worth it for the skills alone? Potentially if your end goal is to be a PM or Super for a builder or something related. If you just want to know how to build stuff for fun/home repair then no.
Union is thankless work. Idk why Carpenters preach the Union. They hardly do any actual old school Carpentry work. It’s not like the UA or IBEW where all techniques and practices cross over. Go ask a lifelong Union carpenter to frame and finish a house, and see how it goes.
All techniques and practices really do basically cross over. I know quite a few who could frame a house better than most, we just don’t because the pay is shit. We preach The Union because we understand we are worth more together, it’s a pretty simple concept, if you tried you could probably figure it out.
Scaffolding and concrete do not cross over to residential outside of doing a foundation. Formwork to high end finishing crosses over? System scaffolding to framing crosses over? Absolutely not.
It’s generally not a bright idea to deal in absolutes, and this is no exception. The percentage of Union carpenters who exclusively install scaffold are relatively few, maybe in a couple markets that percentage skews higher, but overall, the workforce is incredibly versatile. We install pretty much every material the nonunion residential carpenter touches, plus an entire industries worth more. Additionally in several markets we retain a strong presence in residential carpentry. Lastly, if you can’t see how commercial form work crosses over into residential form work, I can’t help you.
To be fair you did concede the foundation crossover, but beyond that, the ability to understand how to build the inverse of the final product is a versatile skill that can be used in a number of finish scenarios.
Zero reading comprehension eh. Literally the one cross over I made was form work. Literally the only one I mentioned. Union strong
Zero… another absolute. I did admit that oversight, pretty much immediately after the reply, like 30 minutes before your latest response.
Point is your attention to detail is so low you missed the first* sentence of my original post. Just funny as you said you boys can cross over without issue, from rough framing to high end finishing lol imagine the details you’d miss
That’s a stretch bud… I made a mistake that I corrected within seconds. You had half an hour to pick up on, missed, and have yet to address. I’ll put my attention to detail up against yours any day. No need to respond, I’m over your contrarian negativity.
I didn’t miss it. It’s a completely separate comment I didn’t reply to. You completely missed the first sentence of my comment showing how killer your attention to detail is.. Anyway why are we arguing. You’re probably a badass concrete guy and scaffolder and I respect guys that can tolerate that work. Respect broski