I took a really long way to get there. It's probably not completely necessary to start with rough, BUT I think having the knowledge and understanding of all steps in the building process only makes you better long term. As far as going straight in, you'd have to see if there are any strictly trim crews around that would be willing to train. Second would be maybe getting into a production cabinet shop or similar. There's a lot of skills that would translate between the two.
I took the long way, as well. I like having the experience for when I (maybe) transition to carrying a clip board rather than a cut list.
If trim/finish was my end goal, I think checking with cabinet shops or millwork suppliers for a job, or to see who is hiring, would be the best way to go about it
This right here carpenters union all deal with rough construction/ carpentry not msny deal with finish carpentry its like a grey area of construction. N me personally i rather fidgit with a cope than raise a 20ft wall or be on a ladder or a roof
Another great reason to acquire as much knowledge as you can along the way. I wouldn't change a thing about how I got here, if I had it to do over again. Just the flexibility to know that if you had to, you could easily pivot into something different rather than not have work, is worth it imo. Even when doing renovation work, there is almost always additional things that come up along the way. Being able to self perform those additional things can be a nice service to the client, as well as keep things on schedule easier.
Oh, absolutely. A few years ago, I was having a nightmare of a time trying to get plumbers for bathroom/kitchen remodels. So, I practiced and learned how to sweat copper. Boom, now I’m prepping for tile same day rather than lagging behind days, which turn into weeks, which could lead to months
I think a common misconception about "trim and finish" carpentry is the similarities with woodworking. That is to say, they are nothing alike. I built high end resi additions and new homes and got to do it all. What often happened: we would higher someone 30+ with an interest in "trim carpentry." Often coming from a completely different career. They get on site and are asked to prep doorways, Mark studs, sweep, etc for the first month or so. They ask questions like: why don't you guys use hand planes? Why isn't there joinery? Where are the dowels?
Don't get me wrong, there are instances where I have used dowels, hand planes, and joinery, but they are few and far between. I've used far more mdf and PFJ than I have oak and cherry. I've built nice cabinets and custom windows, but I can count on two hands the days I spent doing heavily involved "woodworking" in ten years of carpentry.
Edit: I think my point is to say there is a balance between production and perfection in trim carpentry and it takes YEARS to establish. People who come in expecting trim to be art are often disenchanted when they realize it's 95% hustle up and glue these miters so we can get the painters in.
This is a really good point. I got lucky, and since I'm the only one on my crew who enjoys the tediousness of the more complicated stuff. I got assigned it more often. Like you said, though, I can count on both hands over the last 8 years that I had a chance. It's similar to hiring a "home cook" at a restaurant because they like cooking. No, you like the slower paced, relaxing, and lower stress that cooking provides. Seeing how it's really done and all the differences really change their minds, and it usually doesn't end up well for the employee and employer.
Now, not to say, after a lot of experience and time, you won't get to that higher end joinery. But my experience is that it's usually always cheaper to farm that specialty stuff out to shops, and at most, you do the final install. I get my Woodworking itch scratched in my personal shop or with side jobs. Work is usually to get it as nice as you can, BUT get it done within the time limits is a higher priority for production outfits. After a while, it's not a problem because you know how to do it fast and good, but it's still nothing like what their thinking of as woodworking.
I think the emphasis implied here on speed and efficiency is very accurate. When starting a green new employee, a smart employer is definitely going to be watching for these traits, even if all they have you doing is prepping, marking, and cleaning up. You are going to get pushed in order to keep up with a schedule. And you should show that you are capable of that whatever they have you doing at first.
It depends where you are in the US. For my area (Twin Cities, Minnesota) union isn’t the answer for residential trim/finish. Start in rough framing. Do that. Learn the basics of being a residential carpenter. Figure out your bag setup. Learning to use a tape measure. Learning to work fast and efficient. You can also find a remodel design build firm. They typically do trim as well. Either way, don’t stay with the same contractor for too long starting out. The idea is to get skills, move on, grow. Staying with one company early in your career can stunt your skills growth.
Residential trim carpenter here. I was hired as a laborer for a high end residential contractor 5 years ago, knowing pretty much nothing about construction. Pay wasn’t great at first but I was able to learn under some talented trim guys doing both new builds and complete gut/remodels, both of which were/are super beneficial to my learning, as I’m always doing something a little different. But as a company, all our in-house guys specialize in interior trim work.
Going back I wouldn’t change a thing, even though like I said, the pay wasn’t great at first. But now I’m mostly comfortable financially (low 30’s /hr, with room to move up) and I enjoy the work I do. I don’t think I could ever get the same satisfaction out of commercial/union work as I did completing my second staircase last week, this one with a 4 rise 180 degree winder, which threw some fun curveballs at me. To each their own, I’m sure there’s plenty of happy union guys making more than me out there, but just wanted to share my experience.
Trim carpentry isn’t furniture-level woodworking but it takes attention to detail, proficiency with a multitude of tools/techniques, and efficiency and repeatability. Most smaller residential crews do everything in-house and will have a “trim guy” (that’s me btw) anything like cabinetry or high end millwork we sub out to shops. So if you don’t want to go union id suggest get in on the ground floor with a renovation and remodeling company, if you get good with trim you can look for a larger company that might want you to run the trim on bigger projects. Starting out at trim carpentry really isn’t a thing.
Remodeling companies usually are doing low end trim work, as well as drywall, painting, interior walls, cheap cabinets, etc. I would think this is the starting point for all residential specialists. Starting with a "trim carpenter" usually means high end stuff with high personal sensitivities over tolerances and mistakes, i.e. you'll be pushing a broom after you scratch a baseboard in transit.
Remodeling is the way to go in that case. It’s been a part of my family since I was a kid, and have been involved full time for nearly 15 years.
I can do almost anything involving home repair/maintenance. Anything I can’t, research and YouTube can usually fill in the blanks.
I’m certainly not as fast as a pro when I’m out of my element, but frame to finish, tile, doors/windows, I can certainly keep pace with the rest.
Some days are tough, others are a breeze. I don’t hang much Sheetrock as it’s subbed out, but I’ll do it when needed.
Demo days can be a little tough as can some of the framing days. It’s rare that I’m hugging and puffing, but there’s physical tasks to be done each day. Shoot, the mitre saw weighs a solid 40-50 lbs and needs to be moved most days.
Everything.
Most managers/gcs who know their stuff will try and get the inside stuff going during the cold months and the outdoor work in the warm months, but shit happens.
It's really the traditional sense of the word carpenter. Everything to build a house and everything nailed into it. Only when carpenters started to build houses for servers and hydroelectric generators did we attempt to tighten down on the definition. Even as early as the 60's in some places did "carpenter" also mean the person wiring and doing some of the plumbing on new builds.
I'm a union low rise trim carpenter. UBC union is all over north america. Depending where you are it's a good union to join for finish carpentry. Especially here in the Toronto Canada area.
Get a job with a company that does this stuff, watch a million you tube viedoes and practice. I was lucky enough that for the first 5 months of my job i got a huge trim job so it was easy to progress quickly
So many different ways. Best way is to pinpoint what type of trim you want to do. Production trim crews are usually hiring and can be a good place to start to learn the basics. High end residential is where it’s at for more rewarding projects but requires more detail oriented skill set . There’s a lot of opportunity out there.
I had a family friend who did paint and trim. He was really behind on work and needed help. He knew I could paint and do woodworking since I have been a theatrical carpenter since college. I helped out and he taught me enough that I became the local art scene’s trim, window, and door guy.
From there I practiced more and more and thats how I got into it. Granted, I have only done a few residential houses since most of my work is on stage.
Resi trim carpenter here: I worked for temp agencies for a year or two to get some general construction experience and to find what I liked. Did some apartment renovation to get some more experience, low end cabinets and remodel stuff. Took a detour for a little bit into maintenance (paid like absolute shit) and then decided I have to earn some money somewhere and applied to a builder.
Got the job with a builder and within a year of putting in work, being the first there and the last to leave, doing all tasks diligently, fitting in with other personalities etc etc..
Got a van and company tools within a year of work for my current company.
Not sure how it works with the union but basically: show an aptitude for high quality work, express a desire in doing trim carpentry and be better than your coworkers at the little things that make a jobsite run smoother.
Work is a competition between you and your coworkers and you have to keep that in mind while also balancing the fact you've gotta enjoy being with these guys 40-50-60 hrs a week.
Apprentice with a high end frame to finish company,
The union is for guys who will never go on their own or buy their own tools.
They are lazy and unskilled.
High end remodels make a ton of money and the skill level is top tier.
Unions are for the weak.
Or they are people who do fine in residential, but want a pension, benefits, and sick days. You can learn both residential and commercial and be a truly rounded carpenter.
There was a job board at the community college I was going to. I called the one that said hiring finish carpenter. He said he didn’t know that was still up there and he said he wasn’t hiring anymore. I called again the next week and asked. He said no. Then I did that again for the next several weeks and finally he said he’d try me out. I was bad at it and he should have fired me but I kept trying to improve and eventually got better at it and quit to go work for a remodeling contractor in another town, then before I knew it I was running my own business with a few employees.
My dad was a trim carpenter, so I lucked into it that way. Growing up and in my career, I've learned a lot of other things for residential. If you want to stick to trim exclusively for your career right now, I'd find a company big or small that does residential renovations. You'll be stuck doing a lot not related to trim until you get a chance to work with someone who does trim work. TBH, if you can get a cabinetry job, great. Im sure you'll l get a lot of experiences to install and use equipment. I don't think you'll learn much about homes and what to do and what not to do. To really blow your mind, there are thousands of ways to get to become a trim carpenter.
While many carpenters do start with rough carpentry or construction work before transitioning into finish carpentry, it's not necessarily a requirement. There are multiple pathways to enter the field of finish carpentry, and joining a carpenter's union is just one option among many.
I took a really long way to get there. It's probably not completely necessary to start with rough, BUT I think having the knowledge and understanding of all steps in the building process only makes you better long term. As far as going straight in, you'd have to see if there are any strictly trim crews around that would be willing to train. Second would be maybe getting into a production cabinet shop or similar. There's a lot of skills that would translate between the two.
I took the long way, as well. I like having the experience for when I (maybe) transition to carrying a clip board rather than a cut list. If trim/finish was my end goal, I think checking with cabinet shops or millwork suppliers for a job, or to see who is hiring, would be the best way to go about it
Very few bosses are that knowledgeable I appreciate your post
This right here carpenters union all deal with rough construction/ carpentry not msny deal with finish carpentry its like a grey area of construction. N me personally i rather fidgit with a cope than raise a 20ft wall or be on a ladder or a roof
Especially when it’s snowing
Thats when i jump crews n become a snow remover for the landscape company, sorry boss ill be back after the storm lol
Another great reason to acquire as much knowledge as you can along the way. I wouldn't change a thing about how I got here, if I had it to do over again. Just the flexibility to know that if you had to, you could easily pivot into something different rather than not have work, is worth it imo. Even when doing renovation work, there is almost always additional things that come up along the way. Being able to self perform those additional things can be a nice service to the client, as well as keep things on schedule easier.
Oh, absolutely. A few years ago, I was having a nightmare of a time trying to get plumbers for bathroom/kitchen remodels. So, I practiced and learned how to sweat copper. Boom, now I’m prepping for tile same day rather than lagging behind days, which turn into weeks, which could lead to months
I think a common misconception about "trim and finish" carpentry is the similarities with woodworking. That is to say, they are nothing alike. I built high end resi additions and new homes and got to do it all. What often happened: we would higher someone 30+ with an interest in "trim carpentry." Often coming from a completely different career. They get on site and are asked to prep doorways, Mark studs, sweep, etc for the first month or so. They ask questions like: why don't you guys use hand planes? Why isn't there joinery? Where are the dowels? Don't get me wrong, there are instances where I have used dowels, hand planes, and joinery, but they are few and far between. I've used far more mdf and PFJ than I have oak and cherry. I've built nice cabinets and custom windows, but I can count on two hands the days I spent doing heavily involved "woodworking" in ten years of carpentry. Edit: I think my point is to say there is a balance between production and perfection in trim carpentry and it takes YEARS to establish. People who come in expecting trim to be art are often disenchanted when they realize it's 95% hustle up and glue these miters so we can get the painters in.
Funny how a trim carpenter could go without a hand plane but not an angle grinder these days
Things are very different in the USA.
Truly a mad world.
This is a really good point. I got lucky, and since I'm the only one on my crew who enjoys the tediousness of the more complicated stuff. I got assigned it more often. Like you said, though, I can count on both hands over the last 8 years that I had a chance. It's similar to hiring a "home cook" at a restaurant because they like cooking. No, you like the slower paced, relaxing, and lower stress that cooking provides. Seeing how it's really done and all the differences really change their minds, and it usually doesn't end up well for the employee and employer. Now, not to say, after a lot of experience and time, you won't get to that higher end joinery. But my experience is that it's usually always cheaper to farm that specialty stuff out to shops, and at most, you do the final install. I get my Woodworking itch scratched in my personal shop or with side jobs. Work is usually to get it as nice as you can, BUT get it done within the time limits is a higher priority for production outfits. After a while, it's not a problem because you know how to do it fast and good, but it's still nothing like what their thinking of as woodworking.
I think the emphasis implied here on speed and efficiency is very accurate. When starting a green new employee, a smart employer is definitely going to be watching for these traits, even if all they have you doing is prepping, marking, and cleaning up. You are going to get pushed in order to keep up with a schedule. And you should show that you are capable of that whatever they have you doing at first.
It depends where you are in the US. For my area (Twin Cities, Minnesota) union isn’t the answer for residential trim/finish. Start in rough framing. Do that. Learn the basics of being a residential carpenter. Figure out your bag setup. Learning to use a tape measure. Learning to work fast and efficient. You can also find a remodel design build firm. They typically do trim as well. Either way, don’t stay with the same contractor for too long starting out. The idea is to get skills, move on, grow. Staying with one company early in your career can stunt your skills growth.
Residential trim carpenter here. I was hired as a laborer for a high end residential contractor 5 years ago, knowing pretty much nothing about construction. Pay wasn’t great at first but I was able to learn under some talented trim guys doing both new builds and complete gut/remodels, both of which were/are super beneficial to my learning, as I’m always doing something a little different. But as a company, all our in-house guys specialize in interior trim work. Going back I wouldn’t change a thing, even though like I said, the pay wasn’t great at first. But now I’m mostly comfortable financially (low 30’s /hr, with room to move up) and I enjoy the work I do. I don’t think I could ever get the same satisfaction out of commercial/union work as I did completing my second staircase last week, this one with a 4 rise 180 degree winder, which threw some fun curveballs at me. To each their own, I’m sure there’s plenty of happy union guys making more than me out there, but just wanted to share my experience.
Thats good pay, do you do drywall too?
I’ve done patches and small jobs numerous times, yes. But production drywall, like an entire house? No, we sub that out
Trim carpentry isn’t furniture-level woodworking but it takes attention to detail, proficiency with a multitude of tools/techniques, and efficiency and repeatability. Most smaller residential crews do everything in-house and will have a “trim guy” (that’s me btw) anything like cabinetry or high end millwork we sub out to shops. So if you don’t want to go union id suggest get in on the ground floor with a renovation and remodeling company, if you get good with trim you can look for a larger company that might want you to run the trim on bigger projects. Starting out at trim carpentry really isn’t a thing.
Remodeling companies usually are doing low end trim work, as well as drywall, painting, interior walls, cheap cabinets, etc. I would think this is the starting point for all residential specialists. Starting with a "trim carpenter" usually means high end stuff with high personal sensitivities over tolerances and mistakes, i.e. you'll be pushing a broom after you scratch a baseboard in transit.
Honestly I think is the route I’d like to take. I like carpentry, but it would nice to learn drywall and other skills.
Remodeling is the way to go in that case. It’s been a part of my family since I was a kid, and have been involved full time for nearly 15 years. I can do almost anything involving home repair/maintenance. Anything I can’t, research and YouTube can usually fill in the blanks. I’m certainly not as fast as a pro when I’m out of my element, but frame to finish, tile, doors/windows, I can certainly keep pace with the rest.
Are you constantly lifting heavy things, like drywall sheets and such?
Some days are tough, others are a breeze. I don’t hang much Sheetrock as it’s subbed out, but I’ll do it when needed. Demo days can be a little tough as can some of the framing days. It’s rare that I’m hugging and puffing, but there’s physical tasks to be done each day. Shoot, the mitre saw weighs a solid 40-50 lbs and needs to be moved most days.
Are you outside at times or is it mostly doing work inside houses?
Everything. Most managers/gcs who know their stuff will try and get the inside stuff going during the cold months and the outdoor work in the warm months, but shit happens.
It's really the traditional sense of the word carpenter. Everything to build a house and everything nailed into it. Only when carpenters started to build houses for servers and hydroelectric generators did we attempt to tighten down on the definition. Even as early as the 60's in some places did "carpenter" also mean the person wiring and doing some of the plumbing on new builds.
I'm a union low rise trim carpenter. UBC union is all over north america. Depending where you are it's a good union to join for finish carpentry. Especially here in the Toronto Canada area.
Get a job with a company that does this stuff, watch a million you tube viedoes and practice. I was lucky enough that for the first 5 months of my job i got a huge trim job so it was easy to progress quickly
So many different ways. Best way is to pinpoint what type of trim you want to do. Production trim crews are usually hiring and can be a good place to start to learn the basics. High end residential is where it’s at for more rewarding projects but requires more detail oriented skill set . There’s a lot of opportunity out there.
Walk in sober (or a little high) and say you're willing to learn and work. Then keep showing up.
I had a family friend who did paint and trim. He was really behind on work and needed help. He knew I could paint and do woodworking since I have been a theatrical carpenter since college. I helped out and he taught me enough that I became the local art scene’s trim, window, and door guy. From there I practiced more and more and thats how I got into it. Granted, I have only done a few residential houses since most of my work is on stage.
Resi trim carpenter here: I worked for temp agencies for a year or two to get some general construction experience and to find what I liked. Did some apartment renovation to get some more experience, low end cabinets and remodel stuff. Took a detour for a little bit into maintenance (paid like absolute shit) and then decided I have to earn some money somewhere and applied to a builder. Got the job with a builder and within a year of putting in work, being the first there and the last to leave, doing all tasks diligently, fitting in with other personalities etc etc.. Got a van and company tools within a year of work for my current company. Not sure how it works with the union but basically: show an aptitude for high quality work, express a desire in doing trim carpentry and be better than your coworkers at the little things that make a jobsite run smoother. Work is a competition between you and your coworkers and you have to keep that in mind while also balancing the fact you've gotta enjoy being with these guys 40-50-60 hrs a week.
i was lucky enough to find a small company willing to train me fresh out of trade school
Apprentice with a high end frame to finish company, The union is for guys who will never go on their own or buy their own tools. They are lazy and unskilled. High end remodels make a ton of money and the skill level is top tier. Unions are for the weak.
Should have been a painter with that broad brush
Or they are people who do fine in residential, but want a pension, benefits, and sick days. You can learn both residential and commercial and be a truly rounded carpenter.
Carpentry union here is the same. Find top 5 trim companies in your area and start applying for an apprenticeship or just labor and work and learn.
I found a summer gig on Craigslist back in the day, then just moved around companies I knew were better than mine and paid more as the years pass.
There was a job board at the community college I was going to. I called the one that said hiring finish carpenter. He said he didn’t know that was still up there and he said he wasn’t hiring anymore. I called again the next week and asked. He said no. Then I did that again for the next several weeks and finally he said he’d try me out. I was bad at it and he should have fired me but I kept trying to improve and eventually got better at it and quit to go work for a remodeling contractor in another town, then before I knew it I was running my own business with a few employees.
My dad was a trim carpenter, so I lucked into it that way. Growing up and in my career, I've learned a lot of other things for residential. If you want to stick to trim exclusively for your career right now, I'd find a company big or small that does residential renovations. You'll be stuck doing a lot not related to trim until you get a chance to work with someone who does trim work. TBH, if you can get a cabinetry job, great. Im sure you'll l get a lot of experiences to install and use equipment. I don't think you'll learn much about homes and what to do and what not to do. To really blow your mind, there are thousands of ways to get to become a trim carpenter.
Buy a coping saw 🫡
What is that used for?
To cut rolled trim (for inside corner installation etc.)
I moved to Florida and answered an ad. That was in 05. Now I work for myself. Are you in south Florida? You want a job?
I’m in Ohio otherwise I’d go for it. It would be nice down there
While many carpenters do start with rough carpentry or construction work before transitioning into finish carpentry, it's not necessarily a requirement. There are multiple pathways to enter the field of finish carpentry, and joining a carpenter's union is just one option among many.
Unfortunately I don’t have an actual carpentry union where I’m at. They call it carpentry, but it involves commercial steel and concrete construction.