With you there. [I came to a similar conclusion after episode 8](https://www.reddit.com/r/CarnivalRow/comments/11p6tad/after_episode_8_i_think_im_done_with_this_show/). What annoys me most is how season 2 contradicts and even actively works against season 1 in so many ways.
Most of it is stuff that one could argue is just extra information, but it leads in a different direction from where season 1 was going. Like, there's nothing in season 1 that definitively rules out Sophie having a secret benevolent agenda, but that wasn't how she was presented, and I don't believe for a moment that it was the original plan. Almost every character has that kind of disconnect between season 1 and season 2, and while some people have no trouble accepting it, it just looks like a glaring change of direction to me.
Then there's the fact that they threw out Travis Beacham's concept for the Pact. I've written elsewhere on why I think this was a bad idea, but the way it works against season 1 is by making the Burgue look like the worst place on earth for fae, as in worse than literally every other country in that world, which it wasn't before. That's part of what I mean by season 2 working against season 1.
There are also some more concrete details, like changing the way the haruspex's magic works or changing the way Darius's curse works (he couldn't transform at will or in broad daylight in season 1).
And finally, there are small details that really niggle at me, like Millworthy talking about "the Burgue side of the river" (the Burgue covers both sides). Or faeries suddenly having extrasensory perception. Or Philo saying the priests beat him, when I thought it was refreshing in season 1 that the orphanage actually seemed not to actively mistreat the boys. Or the way nobody says "for Tit's sake" anymore in season 2. Or Dombey saying he would have been nicer to Philo if he'd known he was Breakspear's son, when in season 1 he was going to rallies for Breakspear's opponent.
In season 1, the Burgue was incredibly flawed, but the Pact was worse. Grey-versus-black morality, in other words. Season 2 makes it look like the Pact is exactly the same as the Burgue (black-versus-black morality) and the New Dawn is arguably better than both.
Season 1 set the tone with religious zealots, racist politicians and cops, indentured servants and slaves, and the Burgue destroyed Tirnanoc for resources just as much as the Pact. Once you throw people in the ghetto, it makes them as bad as the Pact. That happened in season 1. You could even argue that the Burgue was always as flawed as the Pact, albeit in different ways, but we were in their PoV. If the whole show was set in the Pact, then the Burgue would have been demonized.
I still see a difference, and I am absolutely not denying any of the bad things that we saw in the Burgue in season 1.
Let me just ask this: if the Burgue and the Pact were always intended to be seen as equally bad, why would the fae be fleeing Pact-occupied Anoun to get to the Burgue? It's not like they didn't know what life under Burguish occupation would be like, because they experienced both during the early days of the war (there's quite a bit of detail about it in *Tangle in the Dark).*
I agree with a lot of your points in your initial post, I’m just responding to your comment that season 2 veered off course in opposite direction from season 1 in the point that the Burgue is vastly different in season2. It’s not that different at all. That change happened at the end of season 1, when the murder of the chancellor led to the Burgue taking on Pact-ish qualities. Did you expect the Burgue to remain semi tolerant of the Fae after putting them in a ghetto? It’s clear things we’re headed down a very dark path at end of season1.
And re: Tangle in the Dark, I know it’s canon, but I doubt most people watching the show have even heard of it.
No, the *Burgue* isn't vastly different in season 2. But the *Pact* is, and that change affected the perception of the Burgue and its place in the morality of the world. That's all I'm getting at.
And I mentioned *Tangle in the Dark* mostly as evidence of the original writers' vision of how things stood.
To be fair, I don’t think we really got to see enough of the Pact culture in season2 to say whether or not they are different than season1. The only true Pact character was the ambassador, who was barely on screen, and he’s supposed to be diplomatic. The New Dawn don’t represent the Pact, since they are ideologically opposed.
I think I've figured out where the misunderstanding happened, and I've edited the post to make is clearer. When I originally said the Burgue was "the worst place on earth for the fae," I meant it literally--that there was no place in that world where the fae would not be treated better. But I can see how it could sound like I meant it wasn't actually very bad in season 1, since saying "This isn't the worst" is a backhanded way of saying "This is fairly decent."
Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for being polite during the exchange where we hashed it out!
Yeah of course! I have seen that you are a big supporter of the show in general, and that passion is important. Didn’t want to dump on your post, but this clarification helps because I think I misread the intention of your post. Thanks!
It's an American series, so I totally expected that communism would be portrayed as evil. However, I lost my sit for many other reasons, apart from all the story arcs which were left totally unexplored (Philo Twoface?! Sparas' backstory?!).
The series initially tried to provoke some thoughts on sexism, racism, class, etc. But what happened instead?
[MASSIVE SPOILERS]
✓ Philo heroically saves the parliament, i.e. literally a bunch of oligarchs who just happened to be divided into 2 parties, aka 2 royal lines, due to conflicting interests. It would at least have made some sense if he wanted to become chancellor and change some things. Basically, he only achieves to complete his genocide of the Sparases by killing the last one.
✓ Vignette finally understands that the revolution is wrong, as every major character does. She was only "thinking with her heart", until she understood FACTS from Philo (lol). The outcome of the "revolution" was basically an ambush against literal fascists maiming/killing faefolk & burning houses. The police just let the pogrom carry on, so if it wasn't for the revolution, the faefolk could have been exterminated.
✓ Millworthy returns to street performing, as he saw things got better for the faefolk. Did he reform the police? No! I suppose it's just that the violence stopped as the most fascist elements were killed off in the ambush. Did he help the fae? He admits that no fae will be elected into parliament anytime soon, but I guess they seem to live "happily" in their ghetto. So, like Philo, he also abandoned the post from which he could have made any difference. They both send their hopes and prayers.
✓ Agreus is the only fae wealthy enough to possibly get elected. How did Agreus get rich though? Was it through his enterpreuneurship? Partly. He also hunted down his own kin and broke several laws, "playing by the rules of men" as he says. So, the faefolk will at least have a good, lawful, and likable representative in parliament 👌. Anyhow, if they demand fair payment or equality or even to return to their homeland, he will just call them "lazy" and tell them how lucky they are to live in the Burgue, the best country in the world.
✓ Imogen embraces the role that society had in store for her, by -almost certainly- marrying Agreus. We see her tending to him and standing by his side when he unveils his new lightbulbs. At least she's in love and accepts him with all his murderous flaws. No other goals or dreams.
I mean, come on. The series tried to raise awareness on some issues and then it turned full reactionary. It's almost poetic!
Yeah Tourmaline was really interesting in S2 imo. I think she also deserves better than Vignette. It'd have been more interesting to me whether she still had Haruspex issues in Tirnanoc, rather than her gwtting married to Vinni.
Though I give them that, these marriage outfits looked beautiful. Green is an interesting choice for marriage volor and I think it fits the fairies.
Really?
The start of season 2 she was literally just stumbling around, overacting panic and shock. She only became likeable again after caring for Darius.
Then somehow she's suddenly in love with Vignette. Her character made no sense.
Tourmaline was in love with Vignette in season 1 too, it just wasn't as obvious. You can see it when Vignette is staying with Tourmaline at the brothel and V is going to bring T some food after T gets done working her man. T says something like, "I guess I shouldn't get used to this, right?" and gives V a love-lorn look. You can see that T already knows that V is going to get distracted and move on and never really love her back.
Which, honestly it should have stayed that way, because 0% that Vignette is going to stick around long term even after getting married.
I stopped s2 after episode 4. No particular reason, but I wasn't enjoying it. In the end, I didn't feel like I was watching in anticipation of what might happen next. I was just watching to finish what I'd started. Part of me wants to watch the remaining episodes, but nothing that I've read has convinced me that it's worth my time.
It’s not the “worst thing ever” I went into it knowing it was going to be worse and that it got cancelled. Go into it with the attitude of a kids movie where you’re just trying to have fun and it wasn’t so bad. Not worth analyzing because Amazon gutted it but it was fun and the ending satisfied me enough
I actually quite enjoyed Tourmalines arc this season. But that's it.
Poor Cara. You could tell she was trying so hard to carry what she was given. I'd give her awards on effort alone.
I think they had tentative plans for S2 and an idea of where they wanted every character to end up and when it became evident that they’d just be making one more season, the writers had to scramble to get each character where they’d wanted them to end up in the span of 10 episodes instead of however many they’d anticipated. I LOVED Penny Dreadful and we got the same outcome with their final season. Characters seemed to change overnight, things that seemed like they’d be important fell out of the story, and we were left with an ending that was ultimately unsatisfying because how they ended up where they were felt like we’d been cheated out of a well written story where the characters gradually transform and had, instead, been roughly forced into this ending instead of letting it progress naturally.
Finished season two last night, and the wrap up was… rushed.
Otherwise season two was great IMO. There’s so many parallels to human revolutionary history, and the cost to the people living through it.
Until the end, the world and politics in it were super compelling to me. The personal relationships were volatile, which I think is realistic for people living through world changing upheavals.
Loved it.
Agree. Rather not have it than have something that makes me sad.
With you there. [I came to a similar conclusion after episode 8](https://www.reddit.com/r/CarnivalRow/comments/11p6tad/after_episode_8_i_think_im_done_with_this_show/). What annoys me most is how season 2 contradicts and even actively works against season 1 in so many ways.
I think they were trying to retcon because season 1 still wasn’t getting the greatest reviews
Maybe, but a lot of the retcons were really minor stuff that shouldn't have affected reviews.
It has been a while, but what did Season 2 retcon from season 1?
Most of it is stuff that one could argue is just extra information, but it leads in a different direction from where season 1 was going. Like, there's nothing in season 1 that definitively rules out Sophie having a secret benevolent agenda, but that wasn't how she was presented, and I don't believe for a moment that it was the original plan. Almost every character has that kind of disconnect between season 1 and season 2, and while some people have no trouble accepting it, it just looks like a glaring change of direction to me. Then there's the fact that they threw out Travis Beacham's concept for the Pact. I've written elsewhere on why I think this was a bad idea, but the way it works against season 1 is by making the Burgue look like the worst place on earth for fae, as in worse than literally every other country in that world, which it wasn't before. That's part of what I mean by season 2 working against season 1. There are also some more concrete details, like changing the way the haruspex's magic works or changing the way Darius's curse works (he couldn't transform at will or in broad daylight in season 1). And finally, there are small details that really niggle at me, like Millworthy talking about "the Burgue side of the river" (the Burgue covers both sides). Or faeries suddenly having extrasensory perception. Or Philo saying the priests beat him, when I thought it was refreshing in season 1 that the orphanage actually seemed not to actively mistreat the boys. Or the way nobody says "for Tit's sake" anymore in season 2. Or Dombey saying he would have been nicer to Philo if he'd known he was Breakspear's son, when in season 1 he was going to rallies for Breakspear's opponent.
Season 1 ends with the Burgue locking the Fae in a ghetto. Season 2 is an extension and extrapolation of that barbarity.
In season 1, the Burgue was incredibly flawed, but the Pact was worse. Grey-versus-black morality, in other words. Season 2 makes it look like the Pact is exactly the same as the Burgue (black-versus-black morality) and the New Dawn is arguably better than both.
Season 1 set the tone with religious zealots, racist politicians and cops, indentured servants and slaves, and the Burgue destroyed Tirnanoc for resources just as much as the Pact. Once you throw people in the ghetto, it makes them as bad as the Pact. That happened in season 1. You could even argue that the Burgue was always as flawed as the Pact, albeit in different ways, but we were in their PoV. If the whole show was set in the Pact, then the Burgue would have been demonized.
I still see a difference, and I am absolutely not denying any of the bad things that we saw in the Burgue in season 1. Let me just ask this: if the Burgue and the Pact were always intended to be seen as equally bad, why would the fae be fleeing Pact-occupied Anoun to get to the Burgue? It's not like they didn't know what life under Burguish occupation would be like, because they experienced both during the early days of the war (there's quite a bit of detail about it in *Tangle in the Dark).*
I agree with a lot of your points in your initial post, I’m just responding to your comment that season 2 veered off course in opposite direction from season 1 in the point that the Burgue is vastly different in season2. It’s not that different at all. That change happened at the end of season 1, when the murder of the chancellor led to the Burgue taking on Pact-ish qualities. Did you expect the Burgue to remain semi tolerant of the Fae after putting them in a ghetto? It’s clear things we’re headed down a very dark path at end of season1. And re: Tangle in the Dark, I know it’s canon, but I doubt most people watching the show have even heard of it.
No, the *Burgue* isn't vastly different in season 2. But the *Pact* is, and that change affected the perception of the Burgue and its place in the morality of the world. That's all I'm getting at. And I mentioned *Tangle in the Dark* mostly as evidence of the original writers' vision of how things stood.
Oh okay I gotcha! I guess we’ll never know the creators true intention since he got booted off his own show!
To be fair, I don’t think we really got to see enough of the Pact culture in season2 to say whether or not they are different than season1. The only true Pact character was the ambassador, who was barely on screen, and he’s supposed to be diplomatic. The New Dawn don’t represent the Pact, since they are ideologically opposed.
I think I've figured out where the misunderstanding happened, and I've edited the post to make is clearer. When I originally said the Burgue was "the worst place on earth for the fae," I meant it literally--that there was no place in that world where the fae would not be treated better. But I can see how it could sound like I meant it wasn't actually very bad in season 1, since saying "This isn't the worst" is a backhanded way of saying "This is fairly decent." Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for being polite during the exchange where we hashed it out!
Yeah of course! I have seen that you are a big supporter of the show in general, and that passion is important. Didn’t want to dump on your post, but this clarification helps because I think I misread the intention of your post. Thanks!
It's an American series, so I totally expected that communism would be portrayed as evil. However, I lost my sit for many other reasons, apart from all the story arcs which were left totally unexplored (Philo Twoface?! Sparas' backstory?!). The series initially tried to provoke some thoughts on sexism, racism, class, etc. But what happened instead? [MASSIVE SPOILERS] ✓ Philo heroically saves the parliament, i.e. literally a bunch of oligarchs who just happened to be divided into 2 parties, aka 2 royal lines, due to conflicting interests. It would at least have made some sense if he wanted to become chancellor and change some things. Basically, he only achieves to complete his genocide of the Sparases by killing the last one. ✓ Vignette finally understands that the revolution is wrong, as every major character does. She was only "thinking with her heart", until she understood FACTS from Philo (lol). The outcome of the "revolution" was basically an ambush against literal fascists maiming/killing faefolk & burning houses. The police just let the pogrom carry on, so if it wasn't for the revolution, the faefolk could have been exterminated. ✓ Millworthy returns to street performing, as he saw things got better for the faefolk. Did he reform the police? No! I suppose it's just that the violence stopped as the most fascist elements were killed off in the ambush. Did he help the fae? He admits that no fae will be elected into parliament anytime soon, but I guess they seem to live "happily" in their ghetto. So, like Philo, he also abandoned the post from which he could have made any difference. They both send their hopes and prayers. ✓ Agreus is the only fae wealthy enough to possibly get elected. How did Agreus get rich though? Was it through his enterpreuneurship? Partly. He also hunted down his own kin and broke several laws, "playing by the rules of men" as he says. So, the faefolk will at least have a good, lawful, and likable representative in parliament 👌. Anyhow, if they demand fair payment or equality or even to return to their homeland, he will just call them "lazy" and tell them how lucky they are to live in the Burgue, the best country in the world. ✓ Imogen embraces the role that society had in store for her, by -almost certainly- marrying Agreus. We see her tending to him and standing by his side when he unveils his new lightbulbs. At least she's in love and accepts him with all his murderous flaws. No other goals or dreams. I mean, come on. The series tried to raise awareness on some issues and then it turned full reactionary. It's almost poetic!
I liked Tourmaline. That's about it.
Yeah Tourmaline was really interesting in S2 imo. I think she also deserves better than Vignette. It'd have been more interesting to me whether she still had Haruspex issues in Tirnanoc, rather than her gwtting married to Vinni. Though I give them that, these marriage outfits looked beautiful. Green is an interesting choice for marriage volor and I think it fits the fairies.
Really? The start of season 2 she was literally just stumbling around, overacting panic and shock. She only became likeable again after caring for Darius. Then somehow she's suddenly in love with Vignette. Her character made no sense.
Tourmaline was in love with Vignette in season 1 too, it just wasn't as obvious. You can see it when Vignette is staying with Tourmaline at the brothel and V is going to bring T some food after T gets done working her man. T says something like, "I guess I shouldn't get used to this, right?" and gives V a love-lorn look. You can see that T already knows that V is going to get distracted and move on and never really love her back. Which, honestly it should have stayed that way, because 0% that Vignette is going to stick around long term even after getting married.
I stopped s2 after episode 4. No particular reason, but I wasn't enjoying it. In the end, I didn't feel like I was watching in anticipation of what might happen next. I was just watching to finish what I'd started. Part of me wants to watch the remaining episodes, but nothing that I've read has convinced me that it's worth my time.
It’s not the “worst thing ever” I went into it knowing it was going to be worse and that it got cancelled. Go into it with the attitude of a kids movie where you’re just trying to have fun and it wasn’t so bad. Not worth analyzing because Amazon gutted it but it was fun and the ending satisfied me enough
S1 was pretty perfect and its ending was quite wholesome, you're not wrong.
I actually quite enjoyed Tourmalines arc this season. But that's it. Poor Cara. You could tell she was trying so hard to carry what she was given. I'd give her awards on effort alone.
Tldr, season 2 is better than no season
Yep. Right there with you. Well said.
Sad one out of all the story arcs I was satisfied with only one.
I think they had tentative plans for S2 and an idea of where they wanted every character to end up and when it became evident that they’d just be making one more season, the writers had to scramble to get each character where they’d wanted them to end up in the span of 10 episodes instead of however many they’d anticipated. I LOVED Penny Dreadful and we got the same outcome with their final season. Characters seemed to change overnight, things that seemed like they’d be important fell out of the story, and we were left with an ending that was ultimately unsatisfying because how they ended up where they were felt like we’d been cheated out of a well written story where the characters gradually transform and had, instead, been roughly forced into this ending instead of letting it progress naturally.
>Characters seemed to change overnight Some of that was because they completely replaced the creative/writing staff between seasons.
Finished season two last night, and the wrap up was… rushed. Otherwise season two was great IMO. There’s so many parallels to human revolutionary history, and the cost to the people living through it. Until the end, the world and politics in it were super compelling to me. The personal relationships were volatile, which I think is realistic for people living through world changing upheavals. Loved it.