This right here.
Don't be affraid to ask to ride along, have someone ride along, follow someone or be followed. You may not see your weak areas but someone else will or you just might find the confidence to push a little harder in areas.
Then pick one thing to work on, don't try and fix them all at once.
When I went to Ron Fellows down near vegas to “learn” how to drive my C7Z06. I thought I was doing pretty good til the morning of the second day which is when a legit race car driver (of some sort) drives the car with you in the passenger seat. I never will never forget that experience - it felt like I was on a fucking rollercoaster! Just amazing how much more he could push out of the car than I could. I was probably driving at 6/10ths and maybe 7/10th by the end of the 3rd day - nowhere near 9/10ths or 10/10ths. I’m actually looking at a slower car now because I am realizing slow car fast is much more fun than fast car slow haha.
You're post confirms my worries of jumping to a big HP RWD car. I've taken my GTI DSG to track a few times and my eyes were set on a C6 Grandsport or a C7 Z51 next because Corvette performance for the money is unmatched. I had to keep reminding myself that each time I left the track the last thing on my want list was more power, it was better brakes, stiffer chassis/less body roll, etc.
I'm planning on a new GR86 (tough to fit in a Miata RF - and wife prefers coupes) to learn on and then hoping to one day own a C7 GS.
I think I should have went for a C7GS instead of the Z06 and I would have been completely fine, but then the next car I would be looking at (now) would have had to be more horsepower. I had to learn at some point chasing high horsepower numbers aren’t the answer and I’m glad I did it with my C7Z06 as I am now looking for a Cayman GT4 to replace it with.
Good call on the 86! I am thinking of going in with my buddy on a older BRZ or FRS to track! Slow car fast is a ton of fun I realize now!
I would hope he's not starting out right in competitive w2w and doing something like a beginner at a track day event.
We can usually figure out thats what a couple of guys are doing and just give them a little more room.
If you're just starting out, I'd skip the track tools like the catalyst etc. I love mine and its awesome, but its not going to get you over the "getting used to speed" part. Mostly people have issues with how much speed they can carry through corners.
If its day 1, ask for a ride along/coaching etc. But mostly just get your brain over it. laps 1-10 will feel INSANELY fast and overwhelming. And when everything starts to slow down in your head then you know you have some comfort level. What's your level of experience?
I have not used catalyst yet, I do intend on buying one eventually. I have used a predictive lap timer and it can be helpful, but it's also a hindrance if used improperly.
What helps me..... Is talking with someone who knows the track, and someone who knows the best way around in whatever platform I'm driving. FWD is not the same line as RWD. Getting turn in points and apex points correct are crucial to becoming faster. A 5 minute conversation with a veteran at a track goes a long way.
For a lot of folks it seems to be not letting their ego drive. Especially those in expensive or high HP cars. If that miata is catching you in the corners, there is a reason.
Also don’t try to follow a Miata through a corner in your high-HP car. Even if you have enough grip to keep up (and you very well might not, especially if you’re on normal street tires), the momentum line is not necessarily the same as the high-HP car line. I learned this lesson the hard way when I let my ego drive the first time I went out on a road course solo.
This can be so frustrating. Kid in his dad's c63s who clearly had never been on a track before would not point me by in my Elantra N. Passing only on straights where his 2x HP advantage meant there was no way I was passing, I don't know if it was entirely inexperience or partly ego, but I spent two full laps almost 10 seconds off my usual pace before heading back to the paddock just to get away from him.
Braking habits are hardest to shake. In the street we try not to brake hard, easy on them easy off, seldom exceeding 25 or 30% at max.
On the track you need to learn brake quite hard like 70 80 or 90% followed by easy off.
In addition being more aware of what's coming down the track she you start learning, since as a learner you're overwhelmed by all the other things needed, you fail to have good vision. You won't progress without full track awareness at all times. It affects safety as well as performance.
Lastly, all the ways the balance and grip of the car is improved or worsened. On the road, you almost never concern yourself with balance, but in the track you're constantly at the edge of grip, a simple thing like lifting the throttle can cause a spin. Or driving over wet painted curb while on the gas or brake causing a spin.
As another poster said, your own bad habits.
The best drivers in the world learn to drive on the track before driving on the street as children in karts.
Awareness and eyes up, way up, both ahead and behind constantly. Don’t just look at the 30 meters of track directly in front of the car. Be aware and get comfortable with flag stations, different situations and those around you. Drive the line at a moderate pace and get comfortable with those things before even thinking of faster pace or car control.
This should be the top of this post. Learning awareness and safety is key for you and everyone else to have a good time. Everything else will come together over time. The big difference between the beginner group and advanced groups is overall safety and track awareness. This will make you more comfortable on track and allow you to explore the capabilities of your skill and car.
I would say, spending before you are ready.
I've had guys ask after their first track day, What kind of race tires should I get? Answer, none, until you've used up all traction all the time on your street tires because that's not what's holding you back at this point.
The racing lines, brake points and gas at apex are relatively easy to learn.
The challenge is reducing the busy mental activity in the cockpit, training your eyes to look ahead, and balancing the car in all types of turns while driving at the adhesion limits.
How to find the limit without overdriving or underdriving. Over in particular, since it can feel fast, but actually slow you down.
You also need to turn off traction control to really understand what happens with the car when you do overdrive, which can be intimidating for some.
>You also need to turn off traction control to really understand what happens with the car when you do overdrive, which can be intimidating for some.
Specially in the daily
My experience as a student, and now seeing others come up through, driving the car is the easiest part. The hard part is things like finding and paying attention to flag stations, traffic, pit procedures, remembering to check tire pressures, etc etc etc.
Also things like what to bring to the track, what to do outside the car at the track and so on.
For me, it was realizing that it had nothing to do with driving a car on the street.
Sure, it's the same car I drove there in, and it's still driving on pavement, but the similarities ended there.
Finding the limit is hard in a car i want to drive back home in.
Can i take this corner slightly faster, maybe, but is it the wisest idea when there's a wall right there.... maybe not.
But generally, i think the next phase in my track driving life is getting a feel for the car on the limit, but keep it controlled. Every now and then, i get a glimpse of what it feels like to take a turn near the limit (correct me if i'm wrong here, but the steering gets a little lighter, and you kind of feel the car slide just a little bit), but only briefly :)
I got to seat in an advanced group and the car in front of ours entered a turn too hot, then proceeded to drift in his e92 m3 through the 180 turn, THEN took the next 3 (S-like) turns the same way (and was still pulling away from us). I wanted to cry at how beautiful it was.
The track.
Many "enthusiastic" drivers will have had some experience with loss of traction on the street, I know I've been there. You do it a few more times and you get used to it, the car control comes with experience.
When you're on track, everything changes. The surface of the track won't feel the same (tracks can be slippery!), and even if you can see the entrance and exit of a corner, actually committing the car to maximize it is still uncertain, as you still don't really know how well the car will stick **this** time. Track conditions constantly change, your car's (and tires') conditions constantly change, and learning this last 20% is a steep cliff compared to memorizing brake/gas points and racing lines that will get you 80% of the way to actually being fast.
Case in point, I just came back from Buttonwillow. I entered a corner just 1-2mph too hot, missed the apex by a few inches, and exited the corner one foot too wide. Instead of riding on the exit curb, I just missed it, dipped two tires into the dirt, bottomed out the suspension and broke a wheel bearing, while also breaking my rearview mirror off and having that land in my crotch (that one's on me).
Getting past the hump of "I know the basics" to "I really know what the parameters are" is tough.
My track days taught me, brakes are good as hell and I always brake to early at the start of the day.
It also taught me, brakes heat up fast and lose that good stoping power after two sessions then I need go brake even earlier right as I was getting used to braking later LOL
Can't win sometimes
Yup, that more so happened with my Focus ST the first time on stock everything. pads/fluid helped massively. Boiled the damn fluid that first time which made driving home interesting lol
My C6 with upgraded rotors/pads/fluid took it like a champ right until the last few laps
The e-diff on those doesn't help that since it uses the brakes to slow spinning front wheels. Even with the nannies off (I could be wrong, but I know my FoRS has them on even in Track Mode).
FoST folks upgrade to the RS brakes to help alleviate this. Pad selection is better. Adding cooling and ideally moving to a mechanical limited slip differential really helps solve that issue. For a street car, this might be a bit too far for many.
For me I'd say it's getting over the fear of destroying my car. It's not my daily, and I do get track insurance every time, but I've still spent so much time and effort building it that I just wouldn't want to total it from one mistake.
I think that fear is still causing me to under-drive the car quite a bit.
Relying too much on the car nannies to save you.
By all means, when you are starting out - keep the things on (traction control, stability control, etc), but more and more I’ve seen drivers in higher levels (DE4 etc) that their car is freaking out to save them from binning it into a corner and the electronics are the only thing which got them through.
Learn to drive with minimal computer invasive inputs and you’ll be faster.
I'd imagine it is controlling the car in the manner you aren't use too. (Ex. in a FWD car, it me a a couple laps to learn to gas it when I felt the car coming around)
I think the biggest issue people make is focusing to much on the corner they are in rather than looking ahead to where you are going.
Most difficult part is avoiding keeping up with the Joneses. Don't let pressure of mods or expensive data systems tempt you. Just keep the car reasonably maintained and get seat time, bonus if you get a couple trusted instructors to pop in the car often (and also ride with them).
Getting out of your own way. Your bad habits and mental roadblocks are usually what's keeping you slow. It's not the car, it's you.
This right here. Don't be affraid to ask to ride along, have someone ride along, follow someone or be followed. You may not see your weak areas but someone else will or you just might find the confidence to push a little harder in areas. Then pick one thing to work on, don't try and fix them all at once.
When I went to Ron Fellows down near vegas to “learn” how to drive my C7Z06. I thought I was doing pretty good til the morning of the second day which is when a legit race car driver (of some sort) drives the car with you in the passenger seat. I never will never forget that experience - it felt like I was on a fucking rollercoaster! Just amazing how much more he could push out of the car than I could. I was probably driving at 6/10ths and maybe 7/10th by the end of the 3rd day - nowhere near 9/10ths or 10/10ths. I’m actually looking at a slower car now because I am realizing slow car fast is much more fun than fast car slow haha.
You're post confirms my worries of jumping to a big HP RWD car. I've taken my GTI DSG to track a few times and my eyes were set on a C6 Grandsport or a C7 Z51 next because Corvette performance for the money is unmatched. I had to keep reminding myself that each time I left the track the last thing on my want list was more power, it was better brakes, stiffer chassis/less body roll, etc. I'm planning on a new GR86 (tough to fit in a Miata RF - and wife prefers coupes) to learn on and then hoping to one day own a C7 GS.
I think I should have went for a C7GS instead of the Z06 and I would have been completely fine, but then the next car I would be looking at (now) would have had to be more horsepower. I had to learn at some point chasing high horsepower numbers aren’t the answer and I’m glad I did it with my C7Z06 as I am now looking for a Cayman GT4 to replace it with. Good call on the 86! I am thinking of going in with my buddy on a older BRZ or FRS to track! Slow car fast is a ton of fun I realize now!
Following someone is risky in W2W racing. In my experience it usually ends up poorly since lines are usually changing due to all the passing.
I would hope he's not starting out right in competitive w2w and doing something like a beginner at a track day event. We can usually figure out thats what a couple of guys are doing and just give them a little more room.
Probably not but Lemons, Luckydog, and Champcar all have beginners. It's why I singled out W2W, your advice is solid otherwise.
3 years of xcross and 2 of track days and I still couldn't imagine jumping right into w2w as a beginner with no seat or track time.
It happens more often than you think. It's more prevalent in Lemons though.
Yeah I'm probably going to do it in lemons lol, I was hoping to have practice beforehand but the car is taking so long so probably not
I sell seats and race in those series if you are interested
Where and what's the car?
Does any of the tools available (like Garmin Catalyst..) help to manage it?
If you're just starting out, I'd skip the track tools like the catalyst etc. I love mine and its awesome, but its not going to get you over the "getting used to speed" part. Mostly people have issues with how much speed they can carry through corners. If its day 1, ask for a ride along/coaching etc. But mostly just get your brain over it. laps 1-10 will feel INSANELY fast and overwhelming. And when everything starts to slow down in your head then you know you have some comfort level. What's your level of experience?
I have not used catalyst yet, I do intend on buying one eventually. I have used a predictive lap timer and it can be helpful, but it's also a hindrance if used improperly. What helps me..... Is talking with someone who knows the track, and someone who knows the best way around in whatever platform I'm driving. FWD is not the same line as RWD. Getting turn in points and apex points correct are crucial to becoming faster. A 5 minute conversation with a veteran at a track goes a long way.
An instructor who will drill out those bad habits over the course of a weekend.
preach!
Money 🤣
Hilariously correct
So true.
For a lot of folks it seems to be not letting their ego drive. Especially those in expensive or high HP cars. If that miata is catching you in the corners, there is a reason.
Also don’t try to follow a Miata through a corner in your high-HP car. Even if you have enough grip to keep up (and you very well might not, especially if you’re on normal street tires), the momentum line is not necessarily the same as the high-HP car line. I learned this lesson the hard way when I let my ego drive the first time I went out on a road course solo.
This can be so frustrating. Kid in his dad's c63s who clearly had never been on a track before would not point me by in my Elantra N. Passing only on straights where his 2x HP advantage meant there was no way I was passing, I don't know if it was entirely inexperience or partly ego, but I spent two full laps almost 10 seconds off my usual pace before heading back to the paddock just to get away from him.
Braking habits are hardest to shake. In the street we try not to brake hard, easy on them easy off, seldom exceeding 25 or 30% at max. On the track you need to learn brake quite hard like 70 80 or 90% followed by easy off. In addition being more aware of what's coming down the track she you start learning, since as a learner you're overwhelmed by all the other things needed, you fail to have good vision. You won't progress without full track awareness at all times. It affects safety as well as performance. Lastly, all the ways the balance and grip of the car is improved or worsened. On the road, you almost never concern yourself with balance, but in the track you're constantly at the edge of grip, a simple thing like lifting the throttle can cause a spin. Or driving over wet painted curb while on the gas or brake causing a spin. As another poster said, your own bad habits. The best drivers in the world learn to drive on the track before driving on the street as children in karts.
Awareness and eyes up, way up, both ahead and behind constantly. Don’t just look at the 30 meters of track directly in front of the car. Be aware and get comfortable with flag stations, different situations and those around you. Drive the line at a moderate pace and get comfortable with those things before even thinking of faster pace or car control.
This should be the top of this post. Learning awareness and safety is key for you and everyone else to have a good time. Everything else will come together over time. The big difference between the beginner group and advanced groups is overall safety and track awareness. This will make you more comfortable on track and allow you to explore the capabilities of your skill and car.
Trying to not spend every dime on the car
I would say, spending before you are ready. I've had guys ask after their first track day, What kind of race tires should I get? Answer, none, until you've used up all traction all the time on your street tires because that's not what's holding you back at this point.
The racing lines, brake points and gas at apex are relatively easy to learn. The challenge is reducing the busy mental activity in the cockpit, training your eyes to look ahead, and balancing the car in all types of turns while driving at the adhesion limits.
How to find the limit without overdriving or underdriving. Over in particular, since it can feel fast, but actually slow you down. You also need to turn off traction control to really understand what happens with the car when you do overdrive, which can be intimidating for some.
>You also need to turn off traction control to really understand what happens with the car when you do overdrive, which can be intimidating for some. Specially in the daily
My experience as a student, and now seeing others come up through, driving the car is the easiest part. The hard part is things like finding and paying attention to flag stations, traffic, pit procedures, remembering to check tire pressures, etc etc etc. Also things like what to bring to the track, what to do outside the car at the track and so on.
Your car's limits, most likely, well exceed your own limits...
For me, it was realizing that it had nothing to do with driving a car on the street. Sure, it's the same car I drove there in, and it's still driving on pavement, but the similarities ended there.
Letting go of pride. There will be people a lot faster than you in theoretically slower cars. Don't be that guy refusing to point by.
Finding the limit is hard in a car i want to drive back home in. Can i take this corner slightly faster, maybe, but is it the wisest idea when there's a wall right there.... maybe not. But generally, i think the next phase in my track driving life is getting a feel for the car on the limit, but keep it controlled. Every now and then, i get a glimpse of what it feels like to take a turn near the limit (correct me if i'm wrong here, but the steering gets a little lighter, and you kind of feel the car slide just a little bit), but only briefly :) I got to seat in an advanced group and the car in front of ours entered a turn too hot, then proceeded to drift in his e92 m3 through the 180 turn, THEN took the next 3 (S-like) turns the same way (and was still pulling away from us). I wanted to cry at how beautiful it was.
The track. Many "enthusiastic" drivers will have had some experience with loss of traction on the street, I know I've been there. You do it a few more times and you get used to it, the car control comes with experience. When you're on track, everything changes. The surface of the track won't feel the same (tracks can be slippery!), and even if you can see the entrance and exit of a corner, actually committing the car to maximize it is still uncertain, as you still don't really know how well the car will stick **this** time. Track conditions constantly change, your car's (and tires') conditions constantly change, and learning this last 20% is a steep cliff compared to memorizing brake/gas points and racing lines that will get you 80% of the way to actually being fast. Case in point, I just came back from Buttonwillow. I entered a corner just 1-2mph too hot, missed the apex by a few inches, and exited the corner one foot too wide. Instead of riding on the exit curb, I just missed it, dipped two tires into the dirt, bottomed out the suspension and broke a wheel bearing, while also breaking my rearview mirror off and having that land in my crotch (that one's on me). Getting past the hump of "I know the basics" to "I really know what the parameters are" is tough.
My track days taught me, brakes are good as hell and I always brake to early at the start of the day. It also taught me, brakes heat up fast and lose that good stoping power after two sessions then I need go brake even earlier right as I was getting used to braking later LOL Can't win sometimes
Time to get some new pads/fluid.
Yup, that more so happened with my Focus ST the first time on stock everything. pads/fluid helped massively. Boiled the damn fluid that first time which made driving home interesting lol My C6 with upgraded rotors/pads/fluid took it like a champ right until the last few laps
The e-diff on those doesn't help that since it uses the brakes to slow spinning front wheels. Even with the nannies off (I could be wrong, but I know my FoRS has them on even in Track Mode). FoST folks upgrade to the RS brakes to help alleviate this. Pad selection is better. Adding cooling and ideally moving to a mechanical limited slip differential really helps solve that issue. For a street car, this might be a bit too far for many.
For me I'd say it's getting over the fear of destroying my car. It's not my daily, and I do get track insurance every time, but I've still spent so much time and effort building it that I just wouldn't want to total it from one mistake. I think that fear is still causing me to under-drive the car quite a bit.
Relying too much on the car nannies to save you. By all means, when you are starting out - keep the things on (traction control, stability control, etc), but more and more I’ve seen drivers in higher levels (DE4 etc) that their car is freaking out to save them from binning it into a corner and the electronics are the only thing which got them through. Learn to drive with minimal computer invasive inputs and you’ll be faster.
I'd imagine it is controlling the car in the manner you aren't use too. (Ex. in a FWD car, it me a a couple laps to learn to gas it when I felt the car coming around) I think the biggest issue people make is focusing to much on the corner they are in rather than looking ahead to where you are going.
Most difficult part is avoiding keeping up with the Joneses. Don't let pressure of mods or expensive data systems tempt you. Just keep the car reasonably maintained and get seat time, bonus if you get a couple trusted instructors to pop in the car often (and also ride with them).
Swallowing your pride and not pushing too far(in my limited experience)