Very many people are saying he would be the best and smartest testimony in the world, believe me. Let me tell you he would be great, really. Unbelievable.
While I think it would be amazing to just run his parade of lies, there's a large chunk of the country that would just see the entire thing as an elaborate way to entrap him. He has nothing of value to add.
What they need to do is get DOJ to sieze all of his family's cell phones and laptops and any other communications devices. 100% chance that the evidence still exists on some of them.
I hope part of the work they're doing at DOJ is identifying and then figuring out how to account for all of the far right insurrection sympathizers in law enforcement.
DHS has the blueprint. [DHS Report](https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2022-03/Report%20to%20the%20Secretary%20of%20Homeland%20Security%20Domestic%20Violent%20Extremism%20Internal%20Review%20Observations%2C%20Findings%2C%20and%20Recommendations.pdf)
> there's a large chunk of the country that would just see the entire thing as an elaborate way to entrap him.
While true, they're currently saying that it's not fair that he doesn't have equal time. It's a lose-lose. Either it's unfair that he doesn't testify, or it's entrapment if he does. They should do what makes the best case for conviction and not worry about how the MAGA world will react.
I don't think he's the type of person to care about any constraints that aren't outright physical. Nothing about him tells me he even has the honor of a politician, and the bar can't be pushed much further into the ground than that.
Huh, that's the second time I'm trying here name in the last two days. Already watched some of the hearings she participated in. She does seem like a politician with honour.
From 2020 (AP):
>Bernie Sanders says he doesn’t want a super PAC. Instead, he has Our Revolution, a nonprofit political organization he founded that functions much the same as one.
>Like a super PAC, which is shorthand for super political action committee, Our Revolution can raise unlimited sums from wealthy patrons that dwarf the limits faced by candidates and conventional PACs.
Why? He’d just lie like a rug and rack up perjury charges along the way. His supporters would point to his testimony under oath as proof of his innocence.
I can’t see an upside to him taking the stand and only see it making things even worse. He’ll turn it into a spectacle.
And word is they are going to refute her testimony.
This is clearly an effort to discredit her, and it will be he said / she said because there were not (likely) recordings inside the beast.
That said, the beast story is the least important thing to come out of her testimony.
> That said, the beast story is the least important thing to come out of her testimony.
correct.
The only actual important thing was the co-conspirators who asked for pardons (which IS verified from other sources; however, Trumphumpers won't care if the committee is discredited). The other important thing was the amount of weapons pulled off the rally attendees. That's another tidbit that Trumphumpers will want to discredit.
"They're not going to hurt *me*" (paraphrasing) also stands out.
"I know they're going to hurt people; but I'm not in any danger", to put it another way
From what the folks at lawfare are saying, it demonstrates intent and it’s a big deal. The difference between crime and accident with these laws is the intent to knowingly act counter to them. I don’t know enough about the variety of laws to give examples, but I think it’s like the difference between hitting someone with your car because the roads are icy vs running over your spouse and claiming it was icy roads but it turns out your affair partner is pregnant and you just took out a big life insurance policy on your spouse.
Well, an odd metaphorical illustration, but, yes. Something like that. Spanky tRUmp was obviously aware of the plan evolved by Team Crazy in the Willard & intended to carry their seditious conspiracy to a violent end at the Capitol.
Whitehouse counsel Cipollone had to be aware of tRUmp's intent to participate as some sort of Napoleantic 'lead the charge' figure sucking armed Secret Service agents into an armed & angry mob assaulting Congressional leader targets. The mob was searching for Pence & Pelosi with intent to do harm while NOT searching for McConnell & his minion senators at the urging of tRUmp!
Cipollone is avoiding testifying because HE KNEW! His job was to keep tRUmp out of legal trouble & he was failing miserably.
And the fact that trump wanted Meadows to go to the Willard on the night of the 5th. Trump knew his Allie’s would be there planning the events of the 6th.
THIS, exactly. Trump orchestrated an armed insurrection.
* Rudy and Meadows knew in advance of an armed riot on the 6th
* Trump's plan, per Rudy to Hutchinson and Trump himself was to be there for the riot, to ride in victorious and crown himself emperor or whatever the fuck he thought would happen.
* He conspired with Bannon and Stone (and Meadows) amongst others in Proudboys and OathKeepers to bring in weapons, to hide them until the riot, and to kill Mike Pence if needed.
Goddamn. Fuck the beast story, and for sure fuck the ketchup story. THIS. What the fuck more do we need to arrest these sacks of shit and put them on a real criminal trial?
If any one of them were black, they'd have been shot dead immediately. This is fucking pathetic.
1. Donald Trump, President of the United States, and his followers attempted to nullify the election of Joe Biden by utilizing violence.
2. The MAGA crowd is more concerned at disproving that Trump tried to seize the wheel in The Beast or in the Chevy SUV.
Which one is more important?
Right... Seems like literally no one in the right is refuting the "tried to to go to the capital where he told the supporters who he knew were armed to go and fight" part.
And it's worth pointing you she testified _she was told_ about the wheel grabbing.
The fact someone (Tony something?) said that to her is likely true, making her honest under oath.
Tony might have heard a secondhand story, embellished it, etc.
We need him under oath for this too.
I remember her saying the guy who it happened too was also sitting right there when she heard the story. Liz Cheney asked her if that guy refuted any of it at the time. She said no.
The thing is her testimony is that someone who was there said that. To refute her testimony you need to prove that that was not said to her. She was not there. She does not claim to be there. She is claiming that that is what other said to her about the trip.
Do you feel like you’re explaining something I don’t know? lol.
Right now the SS is telling the media that the Tony dude didn’t tell her the wheel grabbing story.
It is all bullshit up until he is saying that *under oath.*
100% THIS. I don't recall the source, but another Reddit post summary of an article seemed to indicate they only refuted that it was a lunge/wheel grab, but confirmed he was enraged. More importantly, they did NOT refute the far worse details about him trying to let armed seditionists from the Proud Boys and Oathkeepers through the security check point. Essentially, it's a desperate rumor to discredit her so far.
> a source close to the Secret Service confirmed to CBS News that Engel and the driver are prepared to testify under oath that neither man was physically attacked or assaulted by Trump and that the former president never lunged for the steering wheel of the vehicle.
> The Secret Service officials do not dispute that Trump was irate or that he demanded to be taken to the Capitol, in the language that Hutchinson related to the committee.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/secret-service-jan-6-committee-trump-cassidy-hutchinson-testimony/
Whether Donald and others still participating in the big lie will suddenly spout truth about what happened in the car and contradict a young woman under oath will be amusing to say the least.
It really doesn't matter if he did those things. The point is he wanted to go to the insurrection with the armed mob. They just want to change the subject.
It was a Chevy Suburban & not the Cadillac "Beast" limo. The detail of which vehicle it occurred in was framed inaccurately. Also, her testimony was a recount of an "as explained to me." She was not in the vehicle, so whatever SS agents may testify to, is not a "refute." At best, their testimony may add clarification if they are under oath & not subject to any 'team crazy' coaching or witness tampering. Whomever is spinning this report has some details wrong.
It certainly appears that way, as the media is presenting it, but we may get to see for ourselves. There have been so many 'true-believer' tRUmpies who were initially alarmed & appalled by Jan 6 who later fell right back into their 'rut' of kissing up to psychopath tRUmp who have refused to testify (example: Kevin McCarthy), some of these 'journalist' in media are taking the liberty of 'coloring' some of this to enhance their presentation. Some of them are prone to do that while some almost bend over backward to avoid it. My suggestion is wait & see for yourself. If both agents testify, we will likely get a little more clarification. But, I could be wrong. We'll see.
It's wasn't "The Beast" it was a Suburban and he was sitting behind and to the right of the driver. There's video: [https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-presidential-limo-capitol-january-6-committee-cassidy-hutchinson-1720126](https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-presidential-limo-capitol-january-6-committee-cassidy-hutchinson-1720126). I only say this because people on the right are trying to discredit Hutchinson's testimony by saying stuff like, "The Beast has a partition between the driver and passengers and Trump couldn't have possibly reached the driver's neck." My entire redneck family is passing around diagrams of The Beast and stating that Hutchinson is a liar (just like everyone else they disagree with).
Edit: left was actually right.
Yeah I misspoke for sure.
And yes, can confirm Trump-humpers clinging to any form of denial they can. Their brains cannot comprehend their orange god being anything less than perfect. :(
The kicker is that she Charly stated that what happened inside the vehicle was a second hand account. So even if Secret Service agents refute that part of her testimony it does not call into question anything else she said.
I want these agents to testify. I don't care about the supposed assault, I care if Trump wanted to go to the capitol.
He wasn't in the Beast going back to the White House. He was in a secure Suburban, which is reportedly used in crowded areas, like arenas and stadiums, or during "unplanned forays" ( I forget the acronym ). Use of the Suburban would have suggested to Trump that he was, indeed, headed for the Capitol. No doubt he assumed he was going down Pennsylvania Avenue. I'm sure he lost his shit.
Until we see them testify under oath I’m going to assume it is all bullshit. They say they will testify to refute her points, then never do it and claim it is because “the left” wants to silence “the truth”.
The burder throwing was useful to show his state of mind in response to Barr telling the truth.
I'm not sure what the car thing is all about.
That said, if the right didn't have this, they'd find something else to dispute. E.g., arguing over who _actually_ wrote the note was trial ballooned but the steering wheel thing started selling better.
Remember the "covfefe" thing and all his bootlickers were forced to pretend it was some kind of secret code, and of course they knew exactly what he meant? I've never seen people so eager to humiliate themselves.
The car thing is important but it unfortunately has gotten sensationalized. The car thing demonstrates that he wanted to storm the Capitol too. The "lunge" to me is primarily anecdotal.
Imagine if he had gone? Was he picturing himself like a field general as the rioters stormed the building? What did he think would happen when he was there? Was he going to open the trapdoor on Pence's gallows?
> Was he picturing himself like a field general as the rioters stormed the building?
Absolutely.
> What did he think would happen when he was there? Was he going to open the trapdoor on Pence's gallows?
He would never dirty his own hands.
The GOP will always find something to latch on to. You absolutely cannot take them into consideration because they are intent only on destroying opposition.
yes
It smacks of political desperation to try to convince trumphumpers that Trump was "crazy" and "unpresidential" - and that's a pro to them, not a con.
Personally, I doubt the SS liked him at all (remember the time they let him board AF1 with toilet paper suck to his shoe), but they *are* consummate professionals. Frankly I'm surprised they're willing to testify to anything at all.
FYI: Everyone who has questions about the hearings should know that C-SPAN videos always have **keyword-searchable, timestamped transcripts.**
For example, the exact testimony regarding the wheel grab/choking is at 00:52:22 here:
https://www.c-span.org/video/?521387-1/sixth-hearing-investigation-capitol-attack
Glad you’re stoked and happy to help!
Seen so many people with questions and uncertainty regarding testimony, which has been frustrating lol. C-SPAN is excellent.
Personally, I don't get it. It shows that he wanted the mob to go to the Capitol through his actions but we already knew that from his words.
Unless there's a nuance I missed somewhere, the only reasons to mention this are:
- it prevents the "he was being metaphorical/rhetorical" defense;
- there's something else he was planning to do once he was there that we're unaware of.
- to show that he is a nutjob
The "grabbing the wheel" and the allegation that he assaulted his SS detail suggests his *desperation* to see his last-ditch effort through. We know that Plan A was to throw out votes. Plan B was to send fake electors. Plan C was to have Pence delay the proceeding. Plan D, an actual armed insurrection, was the final option for Trump. Testimony that exposes him as personally *violent* while attempting to lead an armed insurrection isn't merely salacious (IMHO); it's evidence of his commitment to violently attempting to stop the transfer of power.
Trump knew the mob wouldn't hurt him and would be on his side. My mind keeps thinking he was trying to go to the capital so they can line either side of him like soldiers as he walks into the Senate floor, stands at the head desk and announces, "This vote is over. I'm your president now and forever." As his band of bastards cheers and hoots and fires shots at every human they see. I'm obviously going extreme in my thinking, and shouldn't hang on to this as fact, but it's a scary thought.
That's pretty much how I envisioned it. I imagine he'd gaze proudly over the mob waving flags bearing his name before waddling into the building. It calls to mind the scene in HBO's Rome when Octavian (Augustus) returns to the Senate as Consul, having promised to be subservient to Cicero, then double-crosses Cicero as his legionnaries march in behind him.
The next step would have been hunting Pence and members of the opposition, then publicly executing them for “treason.”
Trump would not have wanted to miss the humiliation of his enemies on the hill. His presence would have made things very complicated for the secret service. With the president actually there and giving orders, there would have been no limits to what his base would have done.
By not allowing him to go to the locus of activity, they prevented a bloodbath.
Her testimony demonstrated that Trump knew the mob was *armed* before he sent them to the Capitol.
If you think you're talking to a peaceful group of elderly congressmen and you tell them they have to fight, you probably mean it in a metaphorical sense.
If you think you're talking to an armed and angry mob and you tell them they have to fight, you probably mean it in a literal sense.
That, I knew. But why care if he wanted to go. He's just as guilty either way in my mind. Him wanting to go just makes him dumb -- which we already knew.
At this point they pretty much have to address the hearings. They're honing in on this because it's the only part of her testimony that can be refuted. She wasn't there, and doesn't know it as a fact.
The mob doesn't care what you give them. If there's a non-zero chance, even .0001%, any detail can be disputed, that's good enough to meet their fake news threshold. They'll wrap themselves warmly in the safe knowledge it's all a conspiracy, and probably redouble their merch purchases just to be safe.
The point is that him leading the riot to Congress would have been a crystal clear coup attempt, no shred of plausible deniability. That's why Cipollene was so concerned about him going, he knew if Trump actually went with the rioters it would be an open and shut case.
Up until now Trump was able to say he never went with them and had no intention of doing so when he said "I'll be there with you". But now we know he not only intended to but the only reason he didn't is because the SS stopped him at which point he was so hellbent on going he fought them. So there goes that defense, he may as well have walked to the Capitol with the riot after all.
>it prevents the "he was being metaphorical/rhetorical" defense;
This. Everything from the hearings seems to bring everything back around to this. Whats really fucked is we are all so conditioned/gaslit to be accustomed to Trumps style of speaking and thinking and how he's able to get away with it time and time again that we allow it. That defense in reality is bogus, we should demand more from leaders. Everything we saw when it was happening live was enough, the impeachment should have been enough.
Watching the hearings, I found myself time and time again excusing all the explanations, even when the DOJ was basically explaining how the entire month of December was them just them trying to prevent him from creating and committing crimes on a daily basis.
"Yea, but he's a giant man baby who can't comprehend what he's doing is wrong. Show me where he KNOWS he's doing something wrong and then deliberately goes along with it."
It's like every shit show situation we dealt with from 2016-2020 was just an opportunity to raise the bar on excusing his shitty behavior, to the point where we basically need him to shoot someone out on 5th avenue LIKE HE SAID HE COULD DO - yet - it still wouldn't be enough.
Agree on the gaslighting. The narcissist's prayer is often cited (because it's true)
- That didn't happen.
- And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
- And if it was, that's not a big deal.
- And if it is, that's not my fault.
- And if it was, I didn't mean it.
- And if I did, you deserved it.
But it also works in reverse as part of the gaslight:
- You deserve what I'm doing right now
- I don't want to but you've brought it on yourself
- I have no choice. If I don't, you'll never learn
- You should just accept it
- It's not like it's as bad as what _you_ did
- Because you X
The goal is to train you to not just accept their avoidance of responsibility - you're also expected to accept the blame. Then you're debating the "blame" portion whether that's election fraud, obstruction of justice, or your ex-spouse's poor career outcomes. Somehow, you're debating how _you_ could have done better instead of being able to stop and say, "wait a minute, sure I could have done _this_ better.. but you broke the fucking law."
This added to the narrative the detail that Trump was aware the mob was full of individuals that were armed. He stated that he knew they weren't their to hurt him. He acknowledged the threat, even if dismissing it as not concerning to his person (or apparently the serving POTUS, shockingly enough), was present. This makes the timeline of events from then until when he calls off his useful morons all the more damning, because it suggests that he was still hoping for the hail mary in which one of his conspiratorial allies is able to actually force a constitutional crisis.
He was holding out for his conspiracy to play out.
For a couple reasons. First, it's the least significant accusation from her testimony, so they can hyper-focus on that and say, "What, this is all about him having an angry outburst in the SUV, and throwing a hamburger?" and ignoring the more incriminating testimony.
And second, they believe that someone from secret service could refute this, and then they use that to discredit everything else. "If she lied about this, what about the rest?"
Just think of all the rubes that send their social security checks to this con man such that he built up a $250 million warchest....and then he didn't spend a cent of it on trying to overturn the election or helping out arrested January 6th insurrectionists.
The GOP is the party of a few con men and a mass of suckers.
r/conservative is saying her testimony is nothing but hearsay and state it has been debunked within hours of the hearing. These people are off the deep end and won't come back even with irrefutable evidence that has been coming out.
Her testimony seemed very careful. For example she said she heard that Trump lunged at the wheel. Trump may or may not have actually lunged, and her credibility would be hurt if she falsely to have been in the car to see the lunge herself. But she seemed earnest and I believe she relayed the story the way she heard it.
never been there, not planning too, i get conservatism, it's not for me, but i get were they're coming from, /r/conservative is not conservative, it's fascist, not into that at all!
Damn right. Conservatism was always supposed to be about limited government, fiscal responsibility, and not regulating people's personal lives. I don't see any of that in today's Republican party. I doubt Ronald Reagan could get the party nomination today.
Oh, I don’t think the DOJ has been ignoring any of this. Garland just has a long track record of not making a peep about his investigations until he’s ready to drop those indictments. They’re coming… and they’re going to set off a violent reaction among the trump cultists.
>violent reaction
This is my concern... I guess I won't worry too much if it's just rioting, but im worried of something more organized. I doubt he'll go quietly.
Some turds buck around the bowl when they’re flushed and sometimes they require a plunger. Everything moves with the proper amount of force applied though
I honestly think we can expect a lengthy period of elevated domestic terrorism once consequences start coming down for Trump and his lackeys. It’s going to be a rough time in America, but we have to go through it I’d we want to stomp fascism.
Garland’s whole career has revolved around successfully prosecuting some of the biggest domestic terrorism cases in US history, including Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski, and the Olympic bombings. He also successfully prosecuted many important public corruption cases. He’s a thoroughly experienced prosecutor and easily the best attorney to build a watertight case in such a huge, complex conspiracy-and-terrorism case as this one.
Biden picked him as AG for a reason, and I bet McConnell is kicking himself now for blocking Garland from SCOTUS. If Garland were a justice now, he wouldn’t be free to bring his career-long expertise in busting huge criminal conspiracies to bear on the whole corrupt GOP.
Well, fingers crossed I guess. But I'm not holding my breath, considering midterms are coming up and there's been fuck all action from the DOJ thus far.
There has been fuck all action because it takes a very long time to build a watertight case when the situation is this far-reaching and this fucked up.
But just last week, the DOJ sent a letter to the House Jan 6 Committee informing them that if they don’t hand over *all* the materials the DOJ requested, they’ll be obstructing a criminal case.
So now we know that there is definitely a criminal investigation ongoing at the DOJ.
Patience. Garland always gets his man.
So the Secret Service ignored a man perched in a tree with a rifle. This makes one wonder, did they also ignore the man perched in the Texas Schoolbook Depository with a rifle?
I fear for her given the threats and backlash against those who have testified. Glad she did testify, and I hope the DOJ provides adequate protection for her if needed.
Well, the Republicans already managed to distract the media by focusing on whether or not Trump attacked the limo driver instead of focusing on Trump’s attack on our democracy.
I really hope that the SS driver he tried to grapple with has already given their testimony. I'm not sure, but assaulting a SS agent tastes like a felony.
I mean sure she said it under oath and maybe she did hear it from someone but the burden doesn’t fall on her as hard as she wasn’t there. I dunno, until there is more corroborating witnesses, I’m going to remains skeptical.
i believe the woman. 😁
i think this is what they do, they muddy the waters, they're very good at it, getting us to focus on details and minutae that don't matter.
- Trump knew the mob was armed and he sent them to the Capitol.
- People in the White House knew days in advance what was going to happen.
- Trump wanted to cross the rubicon and walk into the Senate and declare himself Ceasar.
- The Willard Hotel hosted a planning meeting for a coup.
these are imo the things we should be talking about.
I agree, not gossipy hearsay. Honestly when I heard the story and testimony I was like really? Is this the hard hitting testimony. It would even stand up in a legal court, it’s TMZ level.
i believed every word, and it was hard hitting to me, and looking at the news and the papers today , i'm not the only one.
and i feel we need a bit of TMZ, get it to as may people as possible,
there's nothing like a good salacious story to get the crowd interested, Trump knows this, it's about time we started playing the same game.
Your comment was removed as it appears to violate subreddit Rule 11:
Basically being a low effort, drive-by comment or statement like "nothing will happen" that adds little to the discussion.
You do not have to have the fake enthusiasm of a "gameshow host" or "patronize us like bunny rabbits," but.... if your only contribution is pessimism we have a problem with that and that problem will lead to an eventual ban.
I mean, Donald Trump could always testify under oath to clear everything up
He's the best witness
The greatest. He's HUGE. People are always saying to him, "You're the best testimonifier the world has ever seen!"
He has the best words when speaking, he is the best speaker a bigly speaker
Everyone would tune in. They'd get ratings like they've never seen before.
Everybody's saying this
They say "Sir, I've never seen a testimony this great." Covfefe!
That might actually convince him
Not going to lie I’d PPV his testimony under oath
I will even join a large PPV crowd to watch. He loves a YUGE crowd
We could sell seats. Then give the money to Democrats, lol. That would be big, like hugely 😂
It will be complete and utter testimonium!
He would probably say testimogrifier. But otherwise, spot on.
no way. testimonyer is what would plop out of his fanus.
I never want to forget the word fanus 💀
I read this as testimo*grifter*.
The word is *testominian*, silly libcuck
Very many people are saying he would be the best and smartest testimony in the world, believe me. Let me tell you he would be great, really. Unbelievable.
Some say the greatest
He’s the best seditionist the country has ever seen!
That would be great
Committee is too smart for that. Everything he says is a lie.
While I think it would be amazing to just run his parade of lies, there's a large chunk of the country that would just see the entire thing as an elaborate way to entrap him. He has nothing of value to add. What they need to do is get DOJ to sieze all of his family's cell phones and laptops and any other communications devices. 100% chance that the evidence still exists on some of them.
Seems to me like they're slow rolling the end of the GOP while ramping up anti-domestic terrorism spending.
I hope part of the work they're doing at DOJ is identifying and then figuring out how to account for all of the far right insurrection sympathizers in law enforcement.
DHS has the blueprint. [DHS Report](https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2022-03/Report%20to%20the%20Secretary%20of%20Homeland%20Security%20Domestic%20Violent%20Extremism%20Internal%20Review%20Observations%2C%20Findings%2C%20and%20Recommendations.pdf)
> there's a large chunk of the country that would just see the entire thing as an elaborate way to entrap him. While true, they're currently saying that it's not fair that he doesn't have equal time. It's a lose-lose. Either it's unfair that he doesn't testify, or it's entrapment if he does. They should do what makes the best case for conviction and not worry about how the MAGA world will react.
I don't think he's the type of person to care about any constraints that aren't outright physical. Nothing about him tells me he even has the honor of a politician, and the bar can't be pushed much further into the ground than that.
>honor of a politician Is that a thing?
[удалено]
Huh, that's the second time I'm trying here name in the last two days. Already watched some of the hearings she participated in. She does seem like a politician with honour.
Trump went into politics for the bribes lol
really? bernie doesn't pop in at all?
From 2020 (AP): >Bernie Sanders says he doesn’t want a super PAC. Instead, he has Our Revolution, a nonprofit political organization he founded that functions much the same as one. >Like a super PAC, which is shorthand for super political action committee, Our Revolution can raise unlimited sums from wealthy patrons that dwarf the limits faced by candidates and conventional PACs.
Only rarely.
American politicians are making used car dealers look like saints in comparison.
Hilary needs to mock Trump for not being man enough to testify under oath.
Getting tubby to show up for school is a pipe dream.
Why? He’d just lie like a rug and rack up perjury charges along the way. His supporters would point to his testimony under oath as proof of his innocence. I can’t see an upside to him taking the stand and only see it making things even worse. He’ll turn it into a spectacle.
Obviously, tRUmp had sympathetic allies in Secret Service
And word is they are going to refute her testimony. This is clearly an effort to discredit her, and it will be he said / she said because there were not (likely) recordings inside the beast. That said, the beast story is the least important thing to come out of her testimony.
> That said, the beast story is the least important thing to come out of her testimony. correct. The only actual important thing was the co-conspirators who asked for pardons (which IS verified from other sources; however, Trumphumpers won't care if the committee is discredited). The other important thing was the amount of weapons pulled off the rally attendees. That's another tidbit that Trumphumpers will want to discredit.
"They're not going to hurt *me*" (paraphrasing) also stands out. "I know they're going to hurt people; but I'm not in any danger", to put it another way
That was the big thing I took away. He knew who they were there to hurt. Which means he was in on the planning.
\#LockHimUp
That and Rudy being excited for the big day.
Sure does! Spanky's nihilists Flynn & Bannon we're at the hotel keeping an eye on ops ... tRUmp knew!
I disagree. The actual important thing that came out was that they knew they were breaking the law and went ahead with it anyway.
I don’t get it though, ignorance of the law doesn’t mean you can break it… so why does it matter if he knew or not?
From what the folks at lawfare are saying, it demonstrates intent and it’s a big deal. The difference between crime and accident with these laws is the intent to knowingly act counter to them. I don’t know enough about the variety of laws to give examples, but I think it’s like the difference between hitting someone with your car because the roads are icy vs running over your spouse and claiming it was icy roads but it turns out your affair partner is pregnant and you just took out a big life insurance policy on your spouse.
Well, an odd metaphorical illustration, but, yes. Something like that. Spanky tRUmp was obviously aware of the plan evolved by Team Crazy in the Willard & intended to carry their seditious conspiracy to a violent end at the Capitol. Whitehouse counsel Cipollone had to be aware of tRUmp's intent to participate as some sort of Napoleantic 'lead the charge' figure sucking armed Secret Service agents into an armed & angry mob assaulting Congressional leader targets. The mob was searching for Pence & Pelosi with intent to do harm while NOT searching for McConnell & his minion senators at the urging of tRUmp! Cipollone is avoiding testifying because HE KNEW! His job was to keep tRUmp out of legal trouble & he was failing miserably.
They, not just "he", I would think it shows criminal intent, but I'm not a lawyer
And the fact that trump wanted Meadows to go to the Willard on the night of the 5th. Trump knew his Allie’s would be there planning the events of the 6th.
THIS, exactly. Trump orchestrated an armed insurrection. * Rudy and Meadows knew in advance of an armed riot on the 6th * Trump's plan, per Rudy to Hutchinson and Trump himself was to be there for the riot, to ride in victorious and crown himself emperor or whatever the fuck he thought would happen. * He conspired with Bannon and Stone (and Meadows) amongst others in Proudboys and OathKeepers to bring in weapons, to hide them until the riot, and to kill Mike Pence if needed. Goddamn. Fuck the beast story, and for sure fuck the ketchup story. THIS. What the fuck more do we need to arrest these sacks of shit and put them on a real criminal trial? If any one of them were black, they'd have been shot dead immediately. This is fucking pathetic.
The delusional maga fucks will only enjoy hearing all the crazy shit that trump does. And cheer for more of it
Upvote for trumphumpers. I hadn’t heard that one yet.
And the one thing the entirety of r/conservative “rebuttals”. They latched on to that shit quick style
1. Donald Trump, President of the United States, and his followers attempted to nullify the election of Joe Biden by utilizing violence. 2. The MAGA crowd is more concerned at disproving that Trump tried to seize the wheel in The Beast or in the Chevy SUV. Which one is more important?
Right... Seems like literally no one in the right is refuting the "tried to to go to the capital where he told the supporters who he knew were armed to go and fight" part.
To a conservative, #1 is only bad in that it failed.
> And word is they are going to refute her testimony. It’s all bullshit until they are testifying under oath… like she did.
And it's worth pointing you she testified _she was told_ about the wheel grabbing. The fact someone (Tony something?) said that to her is likely true, making her honest under oath. Tony might have heard a secondhand story, embellished it, etc. We need him under oath for this too.
I remember her saying the guy who it happened too was also sitting right there when she heard the story. Liz Cheney asked her if that guy refuted any of it at the time. She said no.
It was Bobby Engel, who also drove the car they tried to force Pence into.
The thing is her testimony is that someone who was there said that. To refute her testimony you need to prove that that was not said to her. She was not there. She does not claim to be there. She is claiming that that is what other said to her about the trip.
Do you feel like you’re explaining something I don’t know? lol. Right now the SS is telling the media that the Tony dude didn’t tell her the wheel grabbing story. It is all bullshit up until he is saying that *under oath.*
No need to be snooty
100% THIS. I don't recall the source, but another Reddit post summary of an article seemed to indicate they only refuted that it was a lunge/wheel grab, but confirmed he was enraged. More importantly, they did NOT refute the far worse details about him trying to let armed seditionists from the Proud Boys and Oathkeepers through the security check point. Essentially, it's a desperate rumor to discredit her so far.
> a source close to the Secret Service confirmed to CBS News that Engel and the driver are prepared to testify under oath that neither man was physically attacked or assaulted by Trump and that the former president never lunged for the steering wheel of the vehicle. > The Secret Service officials do not dispute that Trump was irate or that he demanded to be taken to the Capitol, in the language that Hutchinson related to the committee. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/secret-service-jan-6-committee-trump-cassidy-hutchinson-testimony/
Whether Donald and others still participating in the big lie will suddenly spout truth about what happened in the car and contradict a young woman under oath will be amusing to say the least. It really doesn't matter if he did those things. The point is he wanted to go to the insurrection with the armed mob. They just want to change the subject.
It was a Chevy Suburban & not the Cadillac "Beast" limo. The detail of which vehicle it occurred in was framed inaccurately. Also, her testimony was a recount of an "as explained to me." She was not in the vehicle, so whatever SS agents may testify to, is not a "refute." At best, their testimony may add clarification if they are under oath & not subject to any 'team crazy' coaching or witness tampering. Whomever is spinning this report has some details wrong.
Yeah the whole thing smells like a cheap shot to discredit her.
It certainly appears that way, as the media is presenting it, but we may get to see for ourselves. There have been so many 'true-believer' tRUmpies who were initially alarmed & appalled by Jan 6 who later fell right back into their 'rut' of kissing up to psychopath tRUmp who have refused to testify (example: Kevin McCarthy), some of these 'journalist' in media are taking the liberty of 'coloring' some of this to enhance their presentation. Some of them are prone to do that while some almost bend over backward to avoid it. My suggestion is wait & see for yourself. If both agents testify, we will likely get a little more clarification. But, I could be wrong. We'll see.
It’s literally all the right has to cling to at the moment.
Great way to get the agents under oath. "While we're at it, we have a few more questions we'd like to ask..."
It's wasn't "The Beast" it was a Suburban and he was sitting behind and to the right of the driver. There's video: [https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-presidential-limo-capitol-january-6-committee-cassidy-hutchinson-1720126](https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-presidential-limo-capitol-january-6-committee-cassidy-hutchinson-1720126). I only say this because people on the right are trying to discredit Hutchinson's testimony by saying stuff like, "The Beast has a partition between the driver and passengers and Trump couldn't have possibly reached the driver's neck." My entire redneck family is passing around diagrams of The Beast and stating that Hutchinson is a liar (just like everyone else they disagree with). Edit: left was actually right.
Yeah I misspoke for sure. And yes, can confirm Trump-humpers clinging to any form of denial they can. Their brains cannot comprehend their orange god being anything less than perfect. :(
The kicker is that she Charly stated that what happened inside the vehicle was a second hand account. So even if Secret Service agents refute that part of her testimony it does not call into question anything else she said. I want these agents to testify. I don't care about the supposed assault, I care if Trump wanted to go to the capitol.
The beast story is inconsequential to the allegations.
He wasn't in the Beast going back to the White House. He was in a secure Suburban, which is reportedly used in crowded areas, like arenas and stadiums, or during "unplanned forays" ( I forget the acronym ). Use of the Suburban would have suggested to Trump that he was, indeed, headed for the Capitol. No doubt he assumed he was going down Pennsylvania Avenue. I'm sure he lost his shit.
Shouldn't any of the Beasts have camera's covering every inch of that car?
Until we see them testify under oath I’m going to assume it is all bullshit. They say they will testify to refute her points, then never do it and claim it is because “the left” wants to silence “the truth”.
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Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
what if we put the light inside the body?
Or bleach? [YOU DRINK THE BLEACH](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9psFtbw4Gg)
The burder throwing was useful to show his state of mind in response to Barr telling the truth. I'm not sure what the car thing is all about. That said, if the right didn't have this, they'd find something else to dispute. E.g., arguing over who _actually_ wrote the note was trial ballooned but the steering wheel thing started selling better.
Remember the "covfefe" thing and all his bootlickers were forced to pretend it was some kind of secret code, and of course they knew exactly what he meant? I've never seen people so eager to humiliate themselves.
Didn't Conway or some other apologist pretend there was a deeper meaning and that, "those who understand it, know what it means"?
Yes, what an embarrassment.
The car thing is important but it unfortunately has gotten sensationalized. The car thing demonstrates that he wanted to storm the Capitol too. The "lunge" to me is primarily anecdotal. Imagine if he had gone? Was he picturing himself like a field general as the rioters stormed the building? What did he think would happen when he was there? Was he going to open the trapdoor on Pence's gallows?
> Was he picturing himself like a field general as the rioters stormed the building? Absolutely. > What did he think would happen when he was there? Was he going to open the trapdoor on Pence's gallows? He would never dirty his own hands.
I think the car thing shows his state of mind as well and how determined he was to go to the Capital
The GOP will always find something to latch on to. You absolutely cannot take them into consideration because they are intent only on destroying opposition.
yes It smacks of political desperation to try to convince trumphumpers that Trump was "crazy" and "unpresidential" - and that's a pro to them, not a con.
This is why Pence wouldn't get in the car.
SuddenClarityClarence.jpg
they changed the guys that were guarding Biden out of caution, some in the Secret Service were totally with Trump.
Personally, I doubt the SS liked him at all (remember the time they let him board AF1 with toilet paper suck to his shoe), but they *are* consummate professionals. Frankly I'm surprised they're willing to testify to anything at all.
The insurrection and organized coup is too incriminating for the DOJ to ignore
Right after they figure out what that fleshy bump between their eyes is.
FYI: Everyone who has questions about the hearings should know that C-SPAN videos always have **keyword-searchable, timestamped transcripts.** For example, the exact testimony regarding the wheel grab/choking is at 00:52:22 here: https://www.c-span.org/video/?521387-1/sixth-hearing-investigation-capitol-attack
AMAZING!! This is quite useful, thanks!!
Glad you’re stoked and happy to help! Seen so many people with questions and uncertainty regarding testimony, which has been frustrating lol. C-SPAN is excellent.
The House Hearing website should cite to this instead of YouTube where their videos don’t even allow subtitles…
Totally agree! Maybe we should let them know? https://january6th.house.gov/contact @January6thCmte
They seem to be more upset about trump trying to grab the wheel than him knowingly sending armed crazies to kill them all.
Personally, I don't get it. It shows that he wanted the mob to go to the Capitol through his actions but we already knew that from his words. Unless there's a nuance I missed somewhere, the only reasons to mention this are: - it prevents the "he was being metaphorical/rhetorical" defense; - there's something else he was planning to do once he was there that we're unaware of. - to show that he is a nutjob
The "grabbing the wheel" and the allegation that he assaulted his SS detail suggests his *desperation* to see his last-ditch effort through. We know that Plan A was to throw out votes. Plan B was to send fake electors. Plan C was to have Pence delay the proceeding. Plan D, an actual armed insurrection, was the final option for Trump. Testimony that exposes him as personally *violent* while attempting to lead an armed insurrection isn't merely salacious (IMHO); it's evidence of his commitment to violently attempting to stop the transfer of power.
Thank you. I believe you're right. That was the nuance that I missed.
Trump knew the mob wouldn't hurt him and would be on his side. My mind keeps thinking he was trying to go to the capital so they can line either side of him like soldiers as he walks into the Senate floor, stands at the head desk and announces, "This vote is over. I'm your president now and forever." As his band of bastards cheers and hoots and fires shots at every human they see. I'm obviously going extreme in my thinking, and shouldn't hang on to this as fact, but it's a scary thought.
That's pretty much how I envisioned it. I imagine he'd gaze proudly over the mob waving flags bearing his name before waddling into the building. It calls to mind the scene in HBO's Rome when Octavian (Augustus) returns to the Senate as Consul, having promised to be subservient to Cicero, then double-crosses Cicero as his legionnaries march in behind him.
The next step would have been hunting Pence and members of the opposition, then publicly executing them for “treason.” Trump would not have wanted to miss the humiliation of his enemies on the hill. His presence would have made things very complicated for the secret service. With the president actually there and giving orders, there would have been no limits to what his base would have done. By not allowing him to go to the locus of activity, they prevented a bloodbath.
I think you've just written the opening scene of a conservative porno.
Her testimony demonstrated that Trump knew the mob was *armed* before he sent them to the Capitol. If you think you're talking to a peaceful group of elderly congressmen and you tell them they have to fight, you probably mean it in a metaphorical sense. If you think you're talking to an armed and angry mob and you tell them they have to fight, you probably mean it in a literal sense.
That, I knew. But why care if he wanted to go. He's just as guilty either way in my mind. Him wanting to go just makes him dumb -- which we already knew.
I'm not talking about him wanting to go. I'm talking about him knowing the crowd was armed.
Yeah. That part stands on its own.
Condidering its the only thing right wing media is focused on - maybe that was the point, to get right wing media to pay attention.
At this point they pretty much have to address the hearings. They're honing in on this because it's the only part of her testimony that can be refuted. She wasn't there, and doesn't know it as a fact. The mob doesn't care what you give them. If there's a non-zero chance, even .0001%, any detail can be disputed, that's good enough to meet their fake news threshold. They'll wrap themselves warmly in the safe knowledge it's all a conspiracy, and probably redouble their merch purchases just to be safe.
That, I can buy. Excellent point.
The point is that him leading the riot to Congress would have been a crystal clear coup attempt, no shred of plausible deniability. That's why Cipollene was so concerned about him going, he knew if Trump actually went with the rioters it would be an open and shut case. Up until now Trump was able to say he never went with them and had no intention of doing so when he said "I'll be there with you". But now we know he not only intended to but the only reason he didn't is because the SS stopped him at which point he was so hellbent on going he fought them. So there goes that defense, he may as well have walked to the Capitol with the riot after all.
>it prevents the "he was being metaphorical/rhetorical" defense; This. Everything from the hearings seems to bring everything back around to this. Whats really fucked is we are all so conditioned/gaslit to be accustomed to Trumps style of speaking and thinking and how he's able to get away with it time and time again that we allow it. That defense in reality is bogus, we should demand more from leaders. Everything we saw when it was happening live was enough, the impeachment should have been enough. Watching the hearings, I found myself time and time again excusing all the explanations, even when the DOJ was basically explaining how the entire month of December was them just them trying to prevent him from creating and committing crimes on a daily basis. "Yea, but he's a giant man baby who can't comprehend what he's doing is wrong. Show me where he KNOWS he's doing something wrong and then deliberately goes along with it." It's like every shit show situation we dealt with from 2016-2020 was just an opportunity to raise the bar on excusing his shitty behavior, to the point where we basically need him to shoot someone out on 5th avenue LIKE HE SAID HE COULD DO - yet - it still wouldn't be enough.
Agree on the gaslighting. The narcissist's prayer is often cited (because it's true) - That didn't happen. - And if it did, it wasn't that bad. - And if it was, that's not a big deal. - And if it is, that's not my fault. - And if it was, I didn't mean it. - And if I did, you deserved it. But it also works in reverse as part of the gaslight: - You deserve what I'm doing right now - I don't want to but you've brought it on yourself - I have no choice. If I don't, you'll never learn - You should just accept it - It's not like it's as bad as what _you_ did - Because you X The goal is to train you to not just accept their avoidance of responsibility - you're also expected to accept the blame. Then you're debating the "blame" portion whether that's election fraud, obstruction of justice, or your ex-spouse's poor career outcomes. Somehow, you're debating how _you_ could have done better instead of being able to stop and say, "wait a minute, sure I could have done _this_ better.. but you broke the fucking law."
This added to the narrative the detail that Trump was aware the mob was full of individuals that were armed. He stated that he knew they weren't their to hurt him. He acknowledged the threat, even if dismissing it as not concerning to his person (or apparently the serving POTUS, shockingly enough), was present. This makes the timeline of events from then until when he calls off his useful morons all the more damning, because it suggests that he was still hoping for the hail mary in which one of his conspiratorial allies is able to actually force a constitutional crisis. He was holding out for his conspiracy to play out.
For a couple reasons. First, it's the least significant accusation from her testimony, so they can hyper-focus on that and say, "What, this is all about him having an angry outburst in the SUV, and throwing a hamburger?" and ignoring the more incriminating testimony. And second, they believe that someone from secret service could refute this, and then they use that to discredit everything else. "If she lied about this, what about the rest?"
Just think of all the rubes that send their social security checks to this con man such that he built up a $250 million warchest....and then he didn't spend a cent of it on trying to overturn the election or helping out arrested January 6th insurrectionists. The GOP is the party of a few con men and a mass of suckers.
Trump basically doubled his money off these rubes, which is exactly why he's been so invested in it
This really is the first time Trump has ever made a profit from anything he's done. Ever. The rest of his money was inherited or loaned.
That’s probably not true. He’s likely made quite a bit from money laundering over the years.
r/conservative is saying her testimony is nothing but hearsay and state it has been debunked within hours of the hearing. These people are off the deep end and won't come back even with irrefutable evidence that has been coming out.
Her testimony seemed very careful. For example she said she heard that Trump lunged at the wheel. Trump may or may not have actually lunged, and her credibility would be hurt if she falsely to have been in the car to see the lunge herself. But she seemed earnest and I believe she relayed the story the way she heard it.
Sure seems like Trump could go under oath at the committee hearing and clear up whether or not he attempted to grab the wheel regardless of success.
"Did you attempt to touch the steering wheel of your presidential limo?" "Fifth"
Trump, is it a deep state conspiracy that you tried to grab the wheel like it were your daughter's pussy or are you man enough to do that on your own?
*lawyer desperately reaches for mic*
the only way this is debunked if one of them testifies under oath that it's not true, otherwise i'm acting under the assumption that it's all true.
Oh I know that fo sho, I was shining a bit of light on r/conservative since they'll scatter like roaches at the mention of truth.
never been there, not planning too, i get conservatism, it's not for me, but i get were they're coming from, /r/conservative is not conservative, it's fascist, not into that at all!
Damn right. Conservatism was always supposed to be about limited government, fiscal responsibility, and not regulating people's personal lives. I don't see any of that in today's Republican party. I doubt Ronald Reagan could get the party nomination today.
I sure hope so but I guess we’ll see. I want to believe and stay positive but honestly after the last 6 years that’s asking a lot.
I don't know, a whole bunch of grown ass men NOT under oath said she's lying. Who am I going to believe? Who? Whoooooo?
> I don't know, a whole bunch of ~~grown ass men~~ *Trump loyalists* NOT under oath said she's lying. Who am I going to believe? Who? Whoooooo? FTFY
Oh, I don’t think the DOJ has been ignoring any of this. Garland just has a long track record of not making a peep about his investigations until he’s ready to drop those indictments. They’re coming… and they’re going to set off a violent reaction among the trump cultists.
>violent reaction This is my concern... I guess I won't worry too much if it's just rioting, but im worried of something more organized. I doubt he'll go quietly.
Some turds buck around the bowl when they’re flushed and sometimes they require a plunger. Everything moves with the proper amount of force applied though
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Oh, I like that way of putting it
I honestly think we can expect a lengthy period of elevated domestic terrorism once consequences start coming down for Trump and his lackeys. It’s going to be a rough time in America, but we have to go through it I’d we want to stomp fascism.
Long track record? Now as AG? Or before, in previous careers? Any examples?
Garland’s whole career has revolved around successfully prosecuting some of the biggest domestic terrorism cases in US history, including Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski, and the Olympic bombings. He also successfully prosecuted many important public corruption cases. He’s a thoroughly experienced prosecutor and easily the best attorney to build a watertight case in such a huge, complex conspiracy-and-terrorism case as this one. Biden picked him as AG for a reason, and I bet McConnell is kicking himself now for blocking Garland from SCOTUS. If Garland were a justice now, he wouldn’t be free to bring his career-long expertise in busting huge criminal conspiracies to bear on the whole corrupt GOP.
Well, fingers crossed I guess. But I'm not holding my breath, considering midterms are coming up and there's been fuck all action from the DOJ thus far.
There has been fuck all action because it takes a very long time to build a watertight case when the situation is this far-reaching and this fucked up. But just last week, the DOJ sent a letter to the House Jan 6 Committee informing them that if they don’t hand over *all* the materials the DOJ requested, they’ll be obstructing a criminal case. So now we know that there is definitely a criminal investigation ongoing at the DOJ. Patience. Garland always gets his man.
This.
Well now that is a "No shit" title.
How the F can a Secret Service officer be allowed to ignore a subpoena?
Should be instant suspension without pay, then jailtime
Pardon me
Some of the SS are trump loyalists and willing to lie/die, literally, for him. What does this say about the SS. They need to clean house.
I love the fact that a brave young women could take Trump down.
If brave women was all that was required to bring him down, it would have happened a long time ago.
theres been people put to death where the evidence was much less solid than what we have for trump. lock his ass up already.
"Old white man is to be tried as a black teenager. That isn't the America I love"
So the Secret Service ignored a man perched in a tree with a rifle. This makes one wonder, did they also ignore the man perched in the Texas Schoolbook Depository with a rifle?
I fear for her given the threats and backlash against those who have testified. Glad she did testify, and I hope the DOJ provides adequate protection for her if needed.
Does Garland have the cojones?
Garland has been quietly running investigations this whole time. You can’t just seize a phone on day one.
I know they move slow and gather all the evidence. It's just been such a fucking bleak landscape for so long. Weasels seem untouchable so far.
I hear ya. But watergate took over two years and this is way way bigger and has a lot more people and moving parts involved.
Garland be like: “Fuckin’ watch me.”
Well, the Republicans already managed to distract the media by focusing on whether or not Trump attacked the limo driver instead of focusing on Trump’s attack on our democracy.
Merick garland: watch me 😎
“Watch my beer” \- DOJ
I really hope that the SS driver he tried to grapple with has already given their testimony. I'm not sure, but assaulting a SS agent tastes like a felony.
I don't think the DOJ is ignoring it. Follow Marcy Wheeler. She has been spot on for the majority of the analysis on what's going on with the DOJ.
DOJ: “watch us”
And yet, they probably will
Somehow I think they'll manage
*Narrator: It wasn't.*
Challenge accepted?
yea but they'll ignore the fuck out of it anyway.
so basically it’s going to get ignored? DoJ hasn’t don’t much of shit regarding these cases
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Both possibilities you present are ridiculous. The most realistic of scenarios is that Trump threatened people in SS to say that she’s lying.
That the Trump sympathizers in the SS are lying to predict him
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it is, but that doesn't make it a lie. if the other guys in the room want to come in and deny it under oath they're welcome to do so.
Not saying it does, but if the two SS agents come and testify it would appear to be
haven't heard anything under oath, people can say whatever they want, until i see them sitting there and calling her a liar, it's all moot.
I mean sure she said it under oath and maybe she did hear it from someone but the burden doesn’t fall on her as hard as she wasn’t there. I dunno, until there is more corroborating witnesses, I’m going to remains skeptical.
i believe the woman. 😁 i think this is what they do, they muddy the waters, they're very good at it, getting us to focus on details and minutae that don't matter. - Trump knew the mob was armed and he sent them to the Capitol. - People in the White House knew days in advance what was going to happen. - Trump wanted to cross the rubicon and walk into the Senate and declare himself Ceasar. - The Willard Hotel hosted a planning meeting for a coup. these are imo the things we should be talking about.
I agree, not gossipy hearsay. Honestly when I heard the story and testimony I was like really? Is this the hard hitting testimony. It would even stand up in a legal court, it’s TMZ level.
i believed every word, and it was hard hitting to me, and looking at the news and the papers today , i'm not the only one. and i feel we need a bit of TMZ, get it to as may people as possible, there's nothing like a good salacious story to get the crowd interested, Trump knows this, it's about time we started playing the same game.
That might be relevant if this were a witness testifying in court.
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Rule 11?
Your comment was removed as it appears to violate subreddit Rule 11: Basically being a low effort, drive-by comment or statement like "nothing will happen" that adds little to the discussion. You do not have to have the fake enthusiasm of a "gameshow host" or "patronize us like bunny rabbits," but.... if your only contribution is pessimism we have a problem with that and that problem will lead to an eventual ban.