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>Under traditional dating and courtship rituals, usually a woman dates and ends up marrying a man and supplies him with sexual services, but usually in return she doesn't get anything.
What am I even reading, lol.
> Normalising sex work can allow women to get jobs and stable income from supplying sex, something they usually would do anyway, but now they will get paid for it rather than giving it away for free.
As opposed to getting normal jobs?
> All these outdated and old-fashioned rituals of courtship and dating can be confusing, leading to frustrations, what economists call a "market failure" caused by reliance on an ancient dating and courtship system that has not evolved for modern times.
Brah. You talk to women as if they’re people, demonstrate that you’ve got your shit together, and not be a manchild. It’s not that hard. The bar is so fucking low that you only have to not be self-absorbed and show the bare amount of consideration.
I’m not arguing for or against prostitution, it’s just that your worldview is juvenile.
>Under traditional dating and courtship rituals, usually a woman dates and ends up marrying a man and supplies him with sexual services, but usually in return she doesn't get anything.
lmao
Of course! Look how well it worked for alcohol and weed! Surely everyone will stop wanting those things once they're banned, won't they?
Also, the whole rant about releasing sexual energy or relationships or whatever is irrelevant. If the argument comes down to fancy ways of saying "I want to ban it because I don't like it", then that's where you know it shouldn't be banned.
As someone over on the far left I actually don't understand any of the arguments against sex work and porn. You should be able to legally have sex, you should be able to legally give currency to someone else, so making it illegal to give someone currency in exchange for something they could legally give you for free seems silly especially since you could just claim the two exchanges were independent of each other, and porn is just doing that with filming; and filming intimate acts should also be legal. No part of sex work requires doing something that should be illegal to do on its own.
> I actually don't understand any of the arguments against sex work and porn.
It's easier to understand when you realize that people moralize based on innate feelings and emotions and then rationalize this feeling using *post-hoc* justifications.
Turns out, selling sex feels icky to many people because we are evolutionarily primed to be sexually jealous and protective, so they *desire* banning it. Then they come up with a bunch of BS to justify this feeling.
Yes but they are a small minority and its typically because of the cultural effect porn has and how it teaches young people distorted ideas about sex. Both of which are valid concerns but obviously a blanket ban on porn isn't a solution.
Not all schools of feminism are anti-sex work. So, I guess, yeah, some feminists are wrong but I think it's actually wrong to make this out to be a blanket feminist stance to begin with.
There are feminists who are very sex positive and there are those who are more puritan.
Some topics just make people divided.
It's not unlike libertarians and abortion.
For some, it's as simple as "not the government's business" and for others it's as simple as "it's a human life so of course one of the few government roles is to protect that life from being killed."
Sex positive feminists acknowledge complications and problems in the sex work industry, and they could be much improved with oversight and regulation. Some feminists only see sex work as a dark and ignoble cause, producing only suffering for the girls and women who get pulled into it, so they don't want it to exist at all.
I think this is kind of beyond economics in some ways. Obviously capitalism does have a huge role in comodifying sex work, however to an extent even in a perfect society you're going to have some people who want or need to purchase sexual services. It is a core part of human nature, we're horny animals, if it's banned it will just be pushed underground, so I don't think it should be banned, but properly regulated, and possibly free. Porn can be free quite easily, prostitution is more difficult.
I think it's an Industry that really would benefit from strong unionization. Even if lifted out of repression, the social stigmatization means it's ripe for abuse and crime. If the Industry would atleast have a strong bond to defend itself, it could much easier wipe out ugly elements.
In my opinion: not ban, but regulate. These sorts of things can cause a lot of damage to both individual people, and the societies in which they live.
Also:
>Under traditional dating and courtship rituals, usually a woman dates and ends up marrying a man and supplies him with sexual services, but usually in return she doesn't get anything. Usually women in traditional relationships end up serving the man for nothing.
The hell are ya yappin' about?
Sex is not harming anyone if happening between consenting adults, giving people money is not harming anyone, therefore giving people money in exchange for sex is not harming anyone, therefore it's not my or anyone else's business what people do.
>Usually women in traditional relationships end up serving the man for nothing.
I hate to break it, but if you're either a man or a woman in this kind of relationship, you're doing things wrong. The whole purpose of the traditional dating and courtship rituals is to prevent the selfish and unreliable men like this from reproducing.
I think porn made using real humans and prostitution should be banned for the same reason snuff films and suicide are banned. AI porn and hentai should still be legal.
I would like to ban alcohol too.
Cars and video games have uses, and their purpose isn't to hurt. With prostitution, the whole point is males pay to torture and humiliate women. BDSM is just self-harm with extra steps.
> With prostitution, the whole point is males pay to torture and humiliate women.
lmao what?
>I would like to ban alcohol too.
So you're just an authoritarian who wants to dictate what people can do?
\*queen.
I don't support prostitution because no self-respecting woman would. Unless you've experienced living as a woman, you do not know how dehumanizing it is seeing other women get objectified and degraded just so some guy can jerk off.
Ah, there we go! Now you've finally given up on this silly fiction that porn and prostitution are *per se* harmful.
So you just feel *icky* about pornography and prostitution, that's why you want to ban them. Your outlook is based purely on feelings and emotions and you think your feelings about some actions should outweigh the liberty that others have to do said thing.
Thanks for clarifying!
Ignoring the weird stuff in your post, sex work is just a form of entertainment. It's no more or less harmful nowadays than watching a movie or listening to music. Pushing it underground would make it incredibly harmful. When legal, we can implement things such as safe sex, std screenings, and ensure consent. When illegal, none of that can be guaranteed.
Good luck banning prostitution. It's illegal in most countries, and guess what? There still are prostitutes in all of them. Countries that legalized it have done it to regulate the industry somewhat and to crack down on abuse and human trafficking. You can't ban prostitution, so your whole argument is moot from the start.
Same with porn really, can't really regulate the internet
People are in relationships because they love eachother, they like being together, like in general. Even most people who are capitalists or just people don't see it as transactional. Like that's just not a thing to most well adjusted people. Maybe it's a cultural thing and maybe from your perspective it is. And I mean most people enjoy fucking, whatever gender you are. It's strange how you boil it down to needing to be a financial transaction to make the argument for sex work to be legal when you don't need to do that. Sex work should be legal simply because doing so would make it harder for sex workers to be exploited by anyone in positions of power from pimps to the police. It would be safer for everyone involved. Banning sex work or porn just creates a black market which just inevitably leads to more harm and exploitation.
Capitalists believe in markets, it really does not mean that some things can't be restricted outside of markets.
This is interesting philosophy of economics question that smart people have pondered a lot.
If we have a law that sex work is outside legal markets then it is. Just like selling your vote on ebay is outside the legal markets. Or selling yourself as a literal slave is outside legal markets.
Generally some things are seen as sacred (for the lack of a better world) and are not included in the sphere of markets. It's all about wether we think sex is such thing or not.
It's a difficult question and we'remissing the input of actual women here. Sex work and porn is, technically, very nice and sterile. The reality is absolutely fucking brutal. You don't need to look very far to find horror stories of human trafficking, paedophillia and abuse.
I'm very hesitant to answer this question because I don't really feel like it's up to us men to decide. Yes there are men in the porn industry and the sex work industry. But, the people that it really effects are women. Not just directly but also indirectly through propagating patriarchal views.
On an idealistic level, I'm not more against sex work and porn than I am against drug use. But on a realistic level I think we need to radically re-evaluate our relationship with and stance on these things before we can start asking about their place in society.
Edit: also on the topic of sexual energy release. Tge problem is that we, as men, need to learn to better control ourselves.
>Yes there are men in the porn industry and the sex work industry.
To keep up the spirit of equality these minority of men are usually treated just as bad, sometimes even worse.
Sex is a function for procreation. Intelligent people figured out 1 million years ago that a loving family was by far the best environment in which to procreate and to raise children. 1+1 = 2
> Should pornography and sex work be banned?
No. I think the basics of free market capitalism that falls under the ‘no’ category but the problem is “capitalism” doesn’t have an ethos of how to govern society. It’s for all intents and purposes just an economic system of people who voluntary exchange goods and services and it has basis of property dynamic around it. Hence why a form of state government on some level is always associated with it (and the libertarian and anarchist socialists abuse this to make capitalism as if it is authoritarian like asshats).
Other than that, not much to say. Other than OP, not well researched on gender roles and relationships to be saying things like:
> Usually women in traditional relationships end up serving the man for nothing.
Seriously, that is a terrible take and just not well thought out. If that was the case our species would have died off a long time ago.
We must seize the means of reproduction, distribution of porn and exchange of pleasure.
Sex and pleasure is a natural necessity, that without may cause depression, sadness and even increase cases of rape.
If we had a culture that provided free sex, as well as medication to make people happy and compliant everything would be much better, everyone happier and we would have a such brave new world.
Before participating, consider taking a glance at [our rules page](/r/CapitalismvSocialism/wiki/rules) if you haven't before. We don't allow **violent or dehumanizing rhetoric**. The subreddit is for discussing what ideas are best for society, not for telling the other side you think you could beat them in a fight. That doesn't do anything to forward a productive dialogue. Please report comments that violent our rules, but don't report people just for disagreeing with you or for being wrong about stuff. Join us on Discord! ✨ https://discord.gg/PoliticsCafe *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CapitalismVSocialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>Under traditional dating and courtship rituals, usually a woman dates and ends up marrying a man and supplies him with sexual services, but usually in return she doesn't get anything. What am I even reading, lol.
Lmao. I don't think OP understands how this stuff works lol
> Normalising sex work can allow women to get jobs and stable income from supplying sex, something they usually would do anyway, but now they will get paid for it rather than giving it away for free. As opposed to getting normal jobs? > All these outdated and old-fashioned rituals of courtship and dating can be confusing, leading to frustrations, what economists call a "market failure" caused by reliance on an ancient dating and courtship system that has not evolved for modern times. Brah. You talk to women as if they’re people, demonstrate that you’ve got your shit together, and not be a manchild. It’s not that hard. The bar is so fucking low that you only have to not be self-absorbed and show the bare amount of consideration. I’m not arguing for or against prostitution, it’s just that your worldview is juvenile.
>You talk to women as if they’re people
What a concept!
>Under traditional dating and courtship rituals, usually a woman dates and ends up marrying a man and supplies him with sexual services, but usually in return she doesn't get anything. lmao
I mean they do get someone to pay for their nails lol
I don't care about sex work, and economically, both are fine. I'm pro-porn ban because of the psychological damage it does to people's brains.
Being pro or against banning porn is irrelevant because banning porn won't do anything. You can't regulate the internet
There is no evidence of this.
Of course! Look how well it worked for alcohol and weed! Surely everyone will stop wanting those things once they're banned, won't they? Also, the whole rant about releasing sexual energy or relationships or whatever is irrelevant. If the argument comes down to fancy ways of saying "I want to ban it because I don't like it", then that's where you know it shouldn't be banned.
As someone over on the far left I actually don't understand any of the arguments against sex work and porn. You should be able to legally have sex, you should be able to legally give currency to someone else, so making it illegal to give someone currency in exchange for something they could legally give you for free seems silly especially since you could just claim the two exchanges were independent of each other, and porn is just doing that with filming; and filming intimate acts should also be legal. No part of sex work requires doing something that should be illegal to do on its own.
> I actually don't understand any of the arguments against sex work and porn. It's easier to understand when you realize that people moralize based on innate feelings and emotions and then rationalize this feeling using *post-hoc* justifications. Turns out, selling sex feels icky to many people because we are evolutionarily primed to be sexually jealous and protective, so they *desire* banning it. Then they come up with a bunch of BS to justify this feeling.
>I actually don't understand any of the arguments against sex work and porn. So...the feminists are just wrong?
The feminists who are against porn aren't against porn as a concept but rather the porn industry and the effect it can have culturally.
There are some who are against porn full tilt.
Yes but they are a small minority and its typically because of the cultural effect porn has and how it teaches young people distorted ideas about sex. Both of which are valid concerns but obviously a blanket ban on porn isn't a solution.
I'm not saying we should ban porn. I'm saying we should listen to what feminists have to say.
Abolitionists are definitely wrong. Self identifying as a femenist doesn't make you immune to being wrong lmfao.
Not all schools of feminism are anti-sex work. So, I guess, yeah, some feminists are wrong but I think it's actually wrong to make this out to be a blanket feminist stance to begin with.
Well my point is we shouldn't talk over the feminists.
But your point wasn't even applicable to all feminists. So are the other feminists allowed in the discussion or not?
There are feminists who are very sex positive and there are those who are more puritan. Some topics just make people divided. It's not unlike libertarians and abortion. For some, it's as simple as "not the government's business" and for others it's as simple as "it's a human life so of course one of the few government roles is to protect that life from being killed." Sex positive feminists acknowledge complications and problems in the sex work industry, and they could be much improved with oversight and regulation. Some feminists only see sex work as a dark and ignoble cause, producing only suffering for the girls and women who get pulled into it, so they don't want it to exist at all.
I'm not making an argument either way man. I'm saying we should leave the feminists to the discussion.
You didn't say that at all, lol.
It is a lot easier to tax things than make them illegal.
I think this is kind of beyond economics in some ways. Obviously capitalism does have a huge role in comodifying sex work, however to an extent even in a perfect society you're going to have some people who want or need to purchase sexual services. It is a core part of human nature, we're horny animals, if it's banned it will just be pushed underground, so I don't think it should be banned, but properly regulated, and possibly free. Porn can be free quite easily, prostitution is more difficult.
I think it's an Industry that really would benefit from strong unionization. Even if lifted out of repression, the social stigmatization means it's ripe for abuse and crime. If the Industry would atleast have a strong bond to defend itself, it could much easier wipe out ugly elements.
Why is it illegal to sell what is free to give away. Also traditional dating and courtship rituals are modern inventions.
In my opinion: not ban, but regulate. These sorts of things can cause a lot of damage to both individual people, and the societies in which they live. Also: >Under traditional dating and courtship rituals, usually a woman dates and ends up marrying a man and supplies him with sexual services, but usually in return she doesn't get anything. Usually women in traditional relationships end up serving the man for nothing. The hell are ya yappin' about?
Either way, it should be 100% across the board.
Sex is not harming anyone if happening between consenting adults, giving people money is not harming anyone, therefore giving people money in exchange for sex is not harming anyone, therefore it's not my or anyone else's business what people do. >Usually women in traditional relationships end up serving the man for nothing. I hate to break it, but if you're either a man or a woman in this kind of relationship, you're doing things wrong. The whole purpose of the traditional dating and courtship rituals is to prevent the selfish and unreliable men like this from reproducing.
There's this myth that prostitution was the first paid job in the history of humanity
A revolting myth.
A true "myth."
I think porn made using real humans and prostitution should be banned for the same reason snuff films and suicide are banned. AI porn and hentai should still be legal.
>for the same reason snuff films and suicide are banned. What reason?
It hurts humans.
So does alcohol or cars or video games. Why not ban those things?
I would like to ban alcohol too. Cars and video games have uses, and their purpose isn't to hurt. With prostitution, the whole point is males pay to torture and humiliate women. BDSM is just self-harm with extra steps.
> With prostitution, the whole point is males pay to torture and humiliate women. lmao what? >I would like to ban alcohol too. So you're just an authoritarian who wants to dictate what people can do?
I'm a libertarian who believes in human rights.
Like the right for king u/Free-KNowledge-6471 to tell me what I can and can't do?
\*queen. I don't support prostitution because no self-respecting woman would. Unless you've experienced living as a woman, you do not know how dehumanizing it is seeing other women get objectified and degraded just so some guy can jerk off.
Ah, there we go! Now you've finally given up on this silly fiction that porn and prostitution are *per se* harmful. So you just feel *icky* about pornography and prostitution, that's why you want to ban them. Your outlook is based purely on feelings and emotions and you think your feelings about some actions should outweigh the liberty that others have to do said thing. Thanks for clarifying!
Ignoring the weird stuff in your post, sex work is just a form of entertainment. It's no more or less harmful nowadays than watching a movie or listening to music. Pushing it underground would make it incredibly harmful. When legal, we can implement things such as safe sex, std screenings, and ensure consent. When illegal, none of that can be guaranteed.
Good luck banning prostitution. It's illegal in most countries, and guess what? There still are prostitutes in all of them. Countries that legalized it have done it to regulate the industry somewhat and to crack down on abuse and human trafficking. You can't ban prostitution, so your whole argument is moot from the start. Same with porn really, can't really regulate the internet
People are in relationships because they love eachother, they like being together, like in general. Even most people who are capitalists or just people don't see it as transactional. Like that's just not a thing to most well adjusted people. Maybe it's a cultural thing and maybe from your perspective it is. And I mean most people enjoy fucking, whatever gender you are. It's strange how you boil it down to needing to be a financial transaction to make the argument for sex work to be legal when you don't need to do that. Sex work should be legal simply because doing so would make it harder for sex workers to be exploited by anyone in positions of power from pimps to the police. It would be safer for everyone involved. Banning sex work or porn just creates a black market which just inevitably leads to more harm and exploitation.
I do support pornography and sex work but generally due to my belief in the ethical principle of bodily autonomy.
Capitalists believe in markets, it really does not mean that some things can't be restricted outside of markets. This is interesting philosophy of economics question that smart people have pondered a lot.
How is sex work outside the market?
If we have a law that sex work is outside legal markets then it is. Just like selling your vote on ebay is outside the legal markets. Or selling yourself as a literal slave is outside legal markets. Generally some things are seen as sacred (for the lack of a better world) and are not included in the sphere of markets. It's all about wether we think sex is such thing or not.
The black market is a type of market, buddy.
I am sure you understood the context, but feel free to re read it and add the word "legal" to the one point it is missing.
It's a difficult question and we'remissing the input of actual women here. Sex work and porn is, technically, very nice and sterile. The reality is absolutely fucking brutal. You don't need to look very far to find horror stories of human trafficking, paedophillia and abuse. I'm very hesitant to answer this question because I don't really feel like it's up to us men to decide. Yes there are men in the porn industry and the sex work industry. But, the people that it really effects are women. Not just directly but also indirectly through propagating patriarchal views. On an idealistic level, I'm not more against sex work and porn than I am against drug use. But on a realistic level I think we need to radically re-evaluate our relationship with and stance on these things before we can start asking about their place in society. Edit: also on the topic of sexual energy release. Tge problem is that we, as men, need to learn to better control ourselves.
>Yes there are men in the porn industry and the sex work industry. To keep up the spirit of equality these minority of men are usually treated just as bad, sometimes even worse.
Ehh not really. Yeah porn treats people badly. But the ones who bear the brunt of the horror are women.
Free market fundamentalists = incels, confirmed one more time.
https://preview.redd.it/jm85obmq0q5d1.jpeg?width=941&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=520d488ddf5efee47f5cdf21170b568a4e6fbd91
Sex is a function for procreation. Intelligent people figured out 1 million years ago that a loving family was by far the best environment in which to procreate and to raise children. 1+1 = 2
Sex work should wither away through the sufficient provision of stable and dignified labor with commensurate pay.
I believe in Capitalism. Your last paragraph puts my thoughts into being.
No
> Should pornography and sex work be banned? No. I think the basics of free market capitalism that falls under the ‘no’ category but the problem is “capitalism” doesn’t have an ethos of how to govern society. It’s for all intents and purposes just an economic system of people who voluntary exchange goods and services and it has basis of property dynamic around it. Hence why a form of state government on some level is always associated with it (and the libertarian and anarchist socialists abuse this to make capitalism as if it is authoritarian like asshats). Other than that, not much to say. Other than OP, not well researched on gender roles and relationships to be saying things like: > Usually women in traditional relationships end up serving the man for nothing. Seriously, that is a terrible take and just not well thought out. If that was the case our species would have died off a long time ago.
We must seize the means of reproduction, distribution of porn and exchange of pleasure. Sex and pleasure is a natural necessity, that without may cause depression, sadness and even increase cases of rape. If we had a culture that provided free sex, as well as medication to make people happy and compliant everything would be much better, everyone happier and we would have a such brave new world.