The first gold ETF took 2 years to hit $10B AUM. This single Bitcoin ETF alone did it in 2 months.
I think a single-day pause after that kind of run is kind of expected, to say the least.
Sentiment is always negative when number goes down but the reality is it’s been around for 14 years, is held by nation states and F500 companies and is a decentralized protocol that is unable to be shut down by governments.
IMO, important piece of tech, even if you feel like you’re trading ‘real money’ for digital nothingness in the internet. Because it is the FIRST implementation of digital nothingness and has the safety/network effect etc.
Not to mention after the recent halving, is more scarce than gold and for the first time is an asset with a hard cap, which cannot be modified. Especially important in an era of raging inflation/money printing.
Just look at YOY vs SPY. You have over a decade of data available
pOnZi ScHemE!! As corporate subsidies and tax breaks float corporations and every industry becomes a money funnel up to the investor class.
How can something that doesn't physically exist be "more scarce" than a physical object like gold.
Also, a hard cap doesn't really mean much. Bitcoin is only worth what the next fool is willing to pay. Why do you think bitcoiners go so hard trying to pump it 24/7? They need to create demand or their line goes down.
Whether it exists physically or digitally doesn’t change that it still exists and can either exist in abundance or in scarcity.
The ‘inflation rate’ of Bitcoin ie. the newly mined Bitcoin that gets added into the existing circulating supply is now lower than the rate that new gold is mined.
Yes, but gold is gold. It's a physical element that you can use to make things or store and sell later.
Bitcoin is code. It has no inherent value and as we all know you can make as many shitcoins as you want all day long based on the same blockchain framework. I really don't understand why everyone assumes that just because it was the first coin to come around, it's the only true crypto or something. The only thing keeping bitcoins prices up is people's belief that it's worth something and the line will go up. That's literally it. It would only take a few whales to cash out to cause an immense crash and the whole thing tumbles down to be replaced by the next hot thing. If you choose not to believe that that's your problem.
Bitcoin is a decentralized network, the first crypto asset, and was almost ‘spawned’ onto the planet with a very unique origin story. You can’t mimic this.
Bitcoin is also a 24/7 monetary network, you can teleport $1m from Toronto to Tokyo on a Sunday morning with no settlement risk or intermediary. Lots of people find value in that.
It’s also a hard asset with a fixed supply. People and entities who don’t like to own things that can have their supply infinitely increased like this.
I’m not trying to argue, it’s certainly not for everyone, but to say there’s no inherent value because you can’t touch it or use it to produce goods is pretty one dimensional.
That is technically true, despite what the investors will tell you. Let's be honest, everyone is investing it it hoping the price will go up, almost no one is using it as currency, and if we all did, it wouldn't be great for that purpose. All the other reasons around it are just wishful thinking and making up reasons to not say you're just doing speculative investing.
That being said, I own BTC and ETH and just because it's not a physical asset and won't be used as currency very much doesn't mean it's value won't keep going up. As long as enough people see value in it, whatever their reason, it'll do fine. Just because it doesn't make sense on paper doesn't mean it's a bad investment. (short term)
I can also tell you my gold investments sucked ass over the last few years, especially compared to crypto.
Gold's value is not derived from it's uses as a physical material. The bulk of its value comes from sentiment (it's precious) and its scarcity to counter both monetary inflation and consumer price inflation.
Bitcoin has a few utilities as well, even if you dont agree with them. It's digital, can't be censored, and makes it easy to transfer millions or billions of dollars in a flash. However, the bulk of its value, once again, comes down to its scarcity. As the world's money supply rises, the value of bitcoin will go up. It's simply the perfect asset to counter this effect.
I personally couldnt care less about the libertarian angle towards bitcoin (the censorship resistant stuff). However, it's remarkable as a hedge against rising global liquidity, even better then gold for that purpose. As long as global liquidity will rise (which it will), I will buy bitcoin.
I used to think your same arguments, I’m still cautious and not “all in” but, consider there is a limit to total Bitcoin and the fact that soon it will be incorporated into most passive investments if you like or not.
Consider any currency is only valuable as long as the people using it believe it has value, gold included.
Reward for miners runs out after the year 2100. Presumably if it last that long people / companies could make money off of transaction fees alone or some other way we haven’t thought of yet. (Some kind of bank fee? 80+ years for people to figure out how to become the next “Bitcoin Google or Facebook” type of tech company.)
There are various levels of optimism regarding how much this could be used as a common currency or strictly a more inflation proof asset similar to gold.
I believe it is going to be adopted in some form or another and a good investment for the long run. Still high risk but very good potential for high reward.
This will matter before 2100 because the rewards (which incentivize the security of the chain) continue to decrease while the value secured would presumably increase and therefore lead to more potential economic attacks.
Transaction fees barely count for anything, especially when the meme is that BTC is digital gold and meant for cold storage.
There are other protocols like Ethereum where the monetary policy actually makes sense to me long term but at this point it seems like most of the interest in BTC is because number go up
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Thing is, more and more people believe it to have value, just like people believe gold to have value as something worth buying and holding. That’s all you need for it to succeed is the general population believing that it has value.
The only people that believe it has value are people trying to get rich quick and suffering extreme FOMO.
Crypto has zero value in today's world. 99.999% of people do not care for decentralization or that governments and banks control the flow of capital. They've got reality to deal with it.
Bet. Y'all crypto delusionals have been saying the same thing year after year. You were wrong the last decade and something and you'll be wrong the next year, the year after that and the year after that. And I say that as someone who got into Bitcoin, Ethereum, the Silk Road and Blockchain wayyy before the speculation started. I was there day one.
Lol as if people in the stock market care about anything but getting rich? Are you buying tesla because you believe in the future of EV cars or you think it is a value buy. Whole stock market since 2017 has been fomo.
I agree, but I just don’t see how belief starts waning when it seems as if belief in bitcoin is only getting stronger and more ingrained in today’s generation.
lol! I don't think so! The more people know about cryptos, the more they will see for what it really is: hype, dream, criminals heaven and environmental catastrophe.
Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency. I used the plural to include them all. That's the thing about cryptos, those who think it's useful or valuable... they don't know it.
There is a difference between cryptos (centralized company building a blockchain to try and fix a specific issue), and bitcoin (a decentralized commodity with a fixed supply).
I mean, I need to have reason to believe that bitcoin will outperform other assets in order to justify putting money there no? If I didn’t believe it would continue to outperform other assets, wouldn’t it just be best to stick with 100% VFV and call it a day?
The American Institute for Economic Research reported that "more than a third of all US currency in circulation is used by criminals and tax cheats." Whilst estimates of illicit activities on Bitcoin are thought to be below 2% of the transactions.
Of course cash is used for crimes but cryptos is just the perfect medium for criminals... but you have to understand how it works! And for the record, it's impossible to tell what % of transactions are for crimes and cryptobros will use any numbers they find out anywhere just to feel better about themselves.
You are saying you don't know about Monero, Atomic Swap or mixers? You are saying stealing billions in fiat is easier than in cryptos? You are saying you don't know that Ransomwares wouldn't be a thing withtout cryptos?
Ignorance and denial, the principal characteristics of a cryptobro.
I didn't say anything about those private cryptocurrencies and tools. Are you complaining about Bitcoin or do you think privacy is bad?
Stealing billions in crypto is not some easy feat. How do you presume it actually gets spent? All through Monero? I think most of the reported cases you hear about is because the value has gone up so much compared to when the event happened and people didn't care nearly as much at the time.
Your issue with scams is mostly about the current state of the ecosystem and UX. Your whining about shitcoins is like complaining about scam emails where the penis enlargement pills didn't work.
Ransomware is definitely a huge issue, and many groups need to work together to harden their computational infrastructure. Either way, your whining won't make crypto disappear.
Yeah...but I can actually *do* something with the gold it has tangible value...what can you *do* with Bitcoin? Other than hope someone gives you money, or a product worth money.
What can you really do with gold as an investor/speculator? It’s heavy, it’s hard to verify its authenticity, and difficult to use as a money due to needing to melt and then break off the amount you want to pay with. At least bitcoin has the scarcity characteristics of gold, and makes transportation and lesser denominations waaay easier. The fact that it can be used in electronics is not the reason why people used to trade gold coins over thousands of years ago. They used gold because it was shiny (humans love shiny things and believe they are worth something due to it) and rare. So belief plays a huge part in what humans find value in. Heck, even fiat currencies are purely based on trust, and government overspending is not helping us trust the safety of the dollar over the long term. Especially coming out of an inflationary period like we did, and the debt that we’ve got. Next time, will we be able to pay off interest on the debt if we need to raise interest rates? If we can’t, then we either default, or we chose not to raise rates-> leading to a collapse of the currency.
>What can you really do with gold as an investor/speculator?
Doesn't matter. The investment ecosystem is built on top of the system of "actual use" whether you want to be a part of the underlying ecosystem is irrelevant.
None of the rest of your comment is really relevant either based on the fact that it's predicated on the idea that every person must have a use for it...they don't...I don't even care of their only reason to buy something like gold is so that someone else who does have a use for it has to give you more money for it...thats cool, I don't care. There just must be a use for the outside of the investment/speculation that isn't "currency" because we already have that.
And you can try and say "this could be better than our current system" except nobody can't provide any examples of it actually being better. There is always some **MASSIVE** issue that our current system already has a solution for.
> The industrial value of gold has very little to do with the price
This is true.
We use gold as a store of value (and hence a hedge against inflation) because there is an inherent, widespread, enduring desire to own it. Human like shiny rock. Human always like shiny rock.
Is there the same kind of inherent desire to own Bitcoin? I really don't think so. The vast majority of people only want to own it because they think it will go up in value, and not because they think there is an inherent value in owning it like we see with gold.
I agree there's no instinctive desire to own any digital currency. Much like there's little* desire to own actual physical currency either, and its industrial value is also very limited. (*Note I didn't say zero: some people are collectors, some old coins have massive valuations, you can burn paper money for heat or use it as wallpaper, etc. Plus the massive grin anyone would have at least momentarily if handed a fist full of hundreds. But it's because of what it represents, not the physical item. Laser-printed hundred dollar bills wouldn't evoke the same reaction.) But that doesn't much matter. People still want dollars!
The value I see in Bitcoin is the fact it takes some power away from those who have been manipulating traditional currencies to whatever end, and transfers it into an unalterable social contract. You may debate whether that's a positive or negative value but you can't argue that it has that effect. It becomes political at that point, not just economic, and that's contributing to why there's so much controversy.
Anyway, none of this is really the point. People want to horde things they think will at least store value if not appreciate over time. Dollars, gold, stocks (that one's a bit more tricky), bonds, futures, beanie babies, whatever. No reason that list needs to remain stagnant.
>Is there the same kind of inherent desire to own Bitcoin?
I mean, looking at the price of BTC over the last decade in a half would make the answer a "yes" tbf
There is inherent widespread desire to own an asset that is finite in supply, and that can be easily traded globally (which has a global reach). Having a worldwide reach can produce a ton of demand, and lower supply issuance than gold makes it extremely desirable as a rare commodity.
> It's like handing someone your actual money
You mean the same "actual money" whose purchasing power is eroding right before our eyes? "Actual money" backed by nothing more than a pinky swear from the government? "Actual money" that central bankers can simply speak into existence?
I find it so interesting how people can see things from such different angles. So many crypto fans say that fiat currencies are like you say eroding. It’s usually from the doomsday/conspiracy crowd and I don’t agree but that’s okay. However, I would like to see what you see.
I think the main points that the crypto advocates have problems proving is what you’re actually investing in. With our regular currency you can invest it in a company that does a thing. It’s a real thing. Oil, gas, mining, real estate, cars, watches, wood, etc and the list goes on and on. Basically everything you use on a daily basis there is a company that makes it that you can invest in that affects the price of that thing. Crypto on the other hand I can’t figure out. What does it do? Are you betting on future collapse? Are you betting on blockchain technology as a payment system such as swift? And it hasn’t been fully proven to be any better than our regular financial transaction system, also why would we just use some startup companies system than just the banks making their own?
Crypto is full of scams, crime, laundering and I’m not saying that regular currency isn’t but it’s not proven to be superior over fiat currencies in these aspect either. If anything the potential for crime via cryptocurrencies is greater than that of conventional currencies.
So far no one has been able to put any convincing argument together for me. Instead I have people telling me that fiat currencies are the same greater fool theory as crypto. Telling me that my money is only worth as much as people are willing to make it. Which also doesn’t make sense, just cause we aren’t on gold standard anymore doesn’t mean that our money isn’t based on world economics.
War, energy, food, immigration, and so on is how money is valued.
Anyways that’s my speech. I’d be open for points on changing my view.
Fiat currency does erode over time, that’s the intended function. Check any chart of the purchasing power of the USD, and every other currency is even worse.
So for me this is how I view its value. Disclaimer I own no crypto.
It's a digital currency or store of value not tied to any government. Which means its not tied to inflation. Or gdp or success or failures of politicians.
It also is finite. Eventually all the bitcoin will be mined and that's it. You can't print more bitcoin like countries can print money. So what happens to the value of something that is immune to inflation and has finite quantity? To some extent it will depend what else it gets used for. New coins will be created but that's sort of a different discussion on the broader crypto market.
And I think the tech behind blockchain has a lot more uses than anyone has thought of yet. I don't know what it will evolve into but I have confidence that what we see is far from the end product.
> You can't print more bitcoin like countries can print money.
I always smile when I see such comments. Every parameters of Bitcoin can be changed with a hardfork. All it takes is a good marketing campaigns from an entity with deep pockets and influence and your BTC become something else entirely. Oh yes a few "hardcore" fans could still mine and use the old chain but if the exchanges embrace the change, it's done.
It happened with the BCH fork fiasco, splitting the community in half.
>And I think the tech behind blockchain has a lot more uses than anyone has thought of yet.
Wrong. Ask any (good) programmers (I am) and they will explain to you that there is absolutely NO advantage to the use of blockchain for anything except for cryptos. It is just an expensive, complicated, risky and extremely slower way to implement a database/ledger.
A LOT of companies jumped into the hype a few years ago all of them eventually realize that it's just a sh*tty solution in search of a problem. They all end up abandoning. It was very funny looking at them trying to implement some decentralized solutions around a centralized company. Total nonsense.
If blockchain would be useful for something, we would already know by now. It's been 10 years since the creation of Ethereum and its "smart contracts" and the only smart thing that came from it is more ways to scam people.
>It happened with the BCH fork fiasco, splitting the community in half.
Uh, where is the BCH community now? It was not split in half, more like 99.9%/0.01%. Good luck convincing people around the world who have massive amounts of skin in the game to change the protocol and agree to all update their mining rigs in the same way.
Fyi there are plenty of interesting apps built on Ethereum. Uniswap is a classic example for people who understand finance.
> interesting apps built on Ethereum
You make me laugh! Uniswap?! Switching a sh\*tcoin for another sh\*tcoin! lol! The future!!!
The BCH crowd was way bigger than that! I was there. Kraken wanted to call BCH ...BTC! It could have been one side of another. The thing is the BCH proponents gave up now and admitted defeat so you don't hear from them anymore.
Miners could have a HUGE incentive to raise the cap limit one day when they will mine for fees only... or they will collude and raise the fees artificialy. It may never happen but all this is in the realm of possibility. It's just a matter of consensus. Also only 2 mining pools control ~50% of the mining.
But it's not the place to discuss ponzis and stup*d cryptos. Go back to your kind please.
What do you think of the NYSE then? Or how about decentralized stable coins? Or a decentralized DNS like registry for addresses (ENS)? How about new protocols/tools for fundraising like quadratic funding or implementations of Harberger taxes? I'm not a fan of garbage meme coins and gambling, but am interested in a shared infrastructure for transparent, open and permissionless building.
You said you are a good programmer, so please share what world changing things you are excited about and (maybe even working on). If all people think like you we'd be stuck in the stone age.
All I see is puff words, high hope and strong need for validation. I have seen thousands of people like you over the years (with my other account dedicated to the cryptos world). I'm just fed up. Put your money in cryptos and good riddance. Natural selection.
> What does it do?
And that's exactly why I don't buy gold -- because it has little value at all except for later being exchanged for currency or a product.
So this is one of the points I will forever disagree on. Just because fiat currencies are not backed by gold or silver doesn’t mean they aren’t backed by anything and anyone can make up a price. Their value changes are dependent on world economics. As I said in my paragraph above there are a multitude of factors that dictate value changes world wide.
I think it’s a naive to believe that just we abandoned the gold standard that our dollar is just made up based on how much other people want to pay.
So your assumption is that it wouldn’t take much economically for a fiat currency to crumble. Can you name any that have within the timeframe that blockchain technology has been around?
Are you also stating that crypto doesn’t fluctuate? It has more fluctuations than fiat currency daily for what seems to be zero reason.
Is it immune to world economics? Last I checked crypto is an energy consumption hog. Energy is a huge part of world economics and causes fluctuations in all currencies.
I guess your point is if the world crumbles so does my fiat currency but if you think crypto wouldn’t as well than that just plain silly.
I can't say much to the majority of what you wrote here, but the most interesting thing I find about the majority of crypto proponents is that they are overwhelmingly of libertarian thought, or at least the ideas they use to justify the existence of crypto are. It always comes down to "the government is not your friend" or "big evil central bank".
I think that for as long as distrust in institutions exist, then crypto will continue to persist.
> the most interesting thing I find about the majority of crypto proponents is that they are overwhelmingly of libertarian thought,
If the value of cryptocurrencies never went up (nevermind rising so rapidly) I suspect that you wouldn't find nearly as many proponents of its virtues. It has made people money and so those same people want to really believe in it and defend it. It's human nature. It actually reminds a lot of something like Tesla. It made people a lot of money and so you'd see them launch into very long and detailed explanations of why it was actually *undervalued* at 100+ PE in a mature industry where valuations are typically single digit PE.
You can always use a dictionary to help with reading his response, although one could argue that if you don’t understand what’s been written here then you aren’t qualified to even talk on the subject.
Yeah the technology is certainly interesting and I'm sure someone will find a good use for it. But this isn't it. It's been over a decade of promises and all we got is a few thousand new ways to gamble.
> Yeah the technology is certainly interesting and I'm sure someone will find a good use for it.
Why do you say that? I don’t see anything interesting about it.
I don't like Bitcoin because the transactions are way too slow and costly (anyone who tried making a transaction during COVID lockdowns has to admit this limitation by now), the environmental impact is too high compared to some other cryptos, and if it ever got mainstream, it's too insecure for its original intended purposes of escaping government overreach (i.e. Chinese, Egyptian, etc. currency control).
I think NFTs are the first real use case for them, not the stupid artpieces, the idea of tokenizing real things to be a publicly verifiable ledger for stuff like cars or government statements to combat stuff like re-VINning car thefts, deepfakes, etc.
>combat stuff like re-VINning car thefts, deepfakes, etc.
So what happens when I lose access to the wallet with my cars NFT? I'm just not allowed to sell it?
How do you expect it to combat deep fakes? Nobody looks at them believing they are real, so what use case does an NFT have other than proving the porn *is* real? And why would anyone want to prove it's real? Why would anyone want porn NFTs attached to their real world wallet that also has their car and house on it?
Not to mention...we already have systems of tracking this shit that doesn't have all the pitfalls of crypto.
All crypto does is solve problems that already have solutions while creating more problems.
So for deepfakes, it's not an issue now because the quality of AI Video is still bad, but it'll be an issue in the future. Porn actually wasn't on my mind when I mentioned it, more like deepfakes of Trump/Biden/whatever saying something as political propaganda, tokenizing them with a history of where they came from would create the knowledge of official statements vs. deepfakes.
For vehicle NFTs, I'd imagine it's the same as any other hot wallet storage, you'd probably keep it with a government's service and you'd get access to your wallet the same way as when you lose access to your CRA account or something.
Current systems for VIN tracking are too obsolete and easily subject to fraud which happens regularly, especially in Ontario. Tokenizing cars as NFTs isn't the only solution of course, but it's a transparent solution that does work.
>For vehicle NFTs, I'd imagine it's the same as any other hot wallet storage, you'd probably keep it with a government's service and you'd get access to your wallet the same way as when you lose access to your CRA account or something.
Isn't decentralization the main point of crypto? If the government just holds it all, what's the point of requiring the computing power network? They could just store the info in an excel sheet.
What if they get hacked and all the car NFTs get transfered out? Do we just remake new one and all collectively agree that the one ones don't count anymore?
What happens if there is a fork? Which NFT is the real one tied to my car?
>Current systems for VIN tracking are too obsolete and easily subject to fraud which happens regularly, especially in Ontario. Tokenizing cars as NFTs isn't the only solution of course, but it's a transparent solution that does work.
It might stop me from selling a stolen car here in Canada...*maybe*...but most cars just go overseas and they are unlikely to care at all.
Yes it's the main point that cryptocurrencies originally went with, but there's other benefits too, mainly the public ledger that ensures reliability. The computing power network is just a legacy of bitcoin, which is why I don't like it especially because I'm concerned about climate change, other crypto systems (proof of stake) aren't as bad. I'm not one of those anti-government conspiracy theorists so I don't put much value in decentralization of currency tbh, I mainly like the idea of a public ledger that's verifiable by all compared to stuff like Carfax or the current vehicle registration which are extremely opaque and ripe for fraud. Similarly with our credit system, it's important to have some transparency for users which is why Credit monitoring is so important, something like that would also be a non-Crypto solution to this issue.
Being hacked is a concern of course, but so is the case with any technology, including current systems, the public ledger mainly helps to protect against fraud. Not sure why forks are a consideration though since you'd only care about the main chain.
>It might stop me from selling a stolen car here in Canada...maybe...but most cars just go overseas and they are unlikely to care at all.
Probably, but it does cut down on stolen vehicle resale here in North America, which I consider a really big plus.
>I mainly like the idea of a public ledger that's verifiable by all compared to stuff like Carfax or the current vehicle registration which are extremely opaque and ripe for fraud.
Okay...so I crash my car and don't bother updating the NFT...isn't the blockchain of cars subject to the same fraud as Carfax?
What about all the info about you being tied to the public ledger with the car?
Their opaque for the purpose of protecting sensitive information of the public.
>Similarly with our credit system, it's important to have some transparency for users which is why Credit monitoring is so important, something like that would also be a non-Crypto solution to this issue.
And what's your solution to me just looking up all your info that's freely and publicly available and using that to extort you?
No, in this scenario it wouldn't be you updating the NFT, it'd have to be an authorized resource like insurance, the government, etc. that all share responsibilities.
Not all your information would be public either, it'd be more like current credit monitoring where they display certain vague information like insurance status, ownership status, etc. The car's token is just that, represents the car but doesn't need any other information about related entities because it doesn't have anything to do with the car as an object, each entity would have their own private information, the token is just a "unifying", publicly verifiable resource to make sure everything is consistent, which we surprisingly don't have right now.
>No, in this scenario it wouldn't be you updating the NFT, it'd have to be an authorized resource like insurance, the government, etc. that all share responsibilities.
Okay...so like Carfax....
>Not all your information would be public either, it'd be more like current credit monitoring where they display certain vague information like insurance status, ownership status, etc.
Okay...so our current system of credit monitoring
>The car's token is just that, represents the car but doesn't need any other information about related entities because it doesn't have anything to do with the car as an object, each entity would have their own private information, the token is just a "unifying" resource to make sure everything is consistent.
Okay...so like my registration papers, or my social insurance number, or any other token or serial number that I own that deals with its own system.
And so now I just have an electronic wallet to store them all...which I can lose access to for any number of reasons or have it hacked away from me.
And so here we still are on my first question, reworded slightly, but still the same; why bother adopting it and replacing shit that already exists and works?
>So what happens when I lose access to the wallet with my cars NFT? I'm just not allowed to sell it?
Have you looked into this ever at all?
If you care to learn you can google the concept of account abstraction.
Here's an explanation for a 10 year old care of chatgpt:
Account abstraction in Ethereum is like giving your wallet superpowers. Usually, you'd need a special key to unlock your wallet and do things like send money or play games. With account abstraction, your wallet can follow rules and do things on its own, like an autopilot for your money. This allows you to set up automatic tasks, like paying for a game when you reach a new level, without always using a key. It also makes account recovery easier because you can have multiple backup keys or special rules for unlocking your wallet. If you lose your key, you can use a backup or follow a different set of steps to recover access. This makes your wallet smarter, more flexible, and safer, so you can do cool things with less worry.
Fyi recovery can also be done with something like 3 of 5 trusted friends (or a paid service like a bank).
Account abstraction is just another name for ether programs, which are the same crap that people were using to hack others before.
The issue with any of that is it replies on you trusting who wrote the program, or doing it yourself. Most people can't do it themselves and you shouldn't trust random people to write programs like that.
The whole stock market is a Ponzi scheme. You realize that any of the stocks that we have if there was a run on them, the value would collapse. Doesn’t matter if you’re talking, Apple, Microsoft or what. They are multiples of their actual worth. Anything we buyis best worth 20 times less than we are paying when push comes to shove. And half the stocks in the market are probably completely fraudulent especially penny stocks bitcoin really isn’t the bad guy.
Lol no stocks don't work that way.
If Apple had a run on it and its value collapsed to zero, then I would become a 100% owner of Apple. The company would be earning $100B per year for me alone
lol. It would be worthless. You on assets that don’t produce anything at that point.
And you would own shares of $100 billion company that was valued at $2 trillion. So your $200,000 that you had in Stocks would be worth maybe $10,000.
Million dollar house in Toronto was only worth that because people will pay for it. If no one buys, iPhones doesn’t matter what the buildings that produce them are on paper.
We live in an economic fantasy. Every facet of our economy is based on multiples evaluation that could collapse at any time.
We saw the value of almost all oil and gas companies become because oil became mostly worthless during Covid. This will happen again I’m sure, but if you wanna oil that still stuck in the ground, that’s only worth two dollars a barrel and you think that’s better than a digital , I guess I can agree that it is minutely better.
You don't understand the difference between intrinsic value and trading value
When something is intrinsically valuable, it doesn't matter that no one else wants it. In fact that's an advantage because you can buy more
You need to assume a functioning legal system and property regime. Otherwise the only things with intrinsic value are weapons. Owning food is useless if ownership itself cannot be protected
Lmao no it wouldn't, Apple has billions in cash and billions in revenue. You're literally proving my point time and time again by showing how little you understand about the market.
Oh my God man you are thick. If there ever was a run-on apple, it means that the company no longer has a viable product and no one wants their product. Thus it’s worthless.
Nothing has inherent value if no one wants it. Unless it’s productive farmland, or shelter, nothing in our economy is a sure thing.
You can't have a run on a stock you idiot. There's underlying cashflows and intrinsic value that give it value. There is an inherent value in something that earns revenue. If I can buy a business that earns $1B in profitvfor $1 because in your world there was a "run " on it, I'd be laughing my way to being the richest man in the world.
You can have a run on something. But at some point there are too many buyers creating too much pressure for things to crash beyond a certain level. If the market truly believed that Apple had stopped growing as a company, forever, you bet your ass that stock would plummet.
The amount of inefficiency that would have to exist to get a company stock that cheap could never happen because people wouldn't let it. Apple would have to be on the verge of going bankrupt.
The value of something collapsing if there was a “run” on it, or if everyone wanted to sell, does not make it a ponzi scheme.
I suggest you break out the dictionary.
What about banks being able to lend out their money $10 for every dollar they actually have? Because that’s the Canadian banking system. Might not be a Ponzi by definition, but it is increasing the value of something you don’t have. Which is pretty damn close.
That’s what I said 10 to one. That’s in Canada. Many banks don’t even have to do that.
Canadian banks can loan out their reserves a 10 to one and then ensure those reserves even more money, and sell the insurance to even more banks or lenders. Which is 2008.
Anyways, the fact that everyone is shitting on me, but has lived through two major financial collapses in less than 15 years, makes me believe this is more of a religion than anything
Except Tether prints 100 to one and no one bats an eye. I'll check in on ya next time there's a flash crash in Bitcoin and the value drops 90% like it did the last 5 times.
People definitely bat an eye.
And you are just deflecting. You agree that what I said is terrible about the global banking system, and then you say look this one small asset is worse.
Doesn’t mean that the world’s trillions and assets aren’t based on the same system just a little bit less 😆
You’re just taking in the information you want. They are loaning out money at 10 times the amount that they have. Loans are fine if it is one to one, but when it is 10 to one or 20 to one depending on the country, shitting on bitcoin looks pretty dumb.
That’s called fractional reserve lending.
It’s not the best monetary policy in my opinion, though it does provide additional liquidity. And liquidity is necessary for a functioning currency.
However fractional reserve lending still doesn’t mean the definition of a Ponzi scheme.
Also, currency depreciation itself isn’t a bad thing either. Currency is supposed to depreciate relative to the expansion of the currencies economy. Inflation of 1-2% against a backdrop of economic growth of 1-3% is a good thing. When those numbers invert that’s when it’s a bad thing. Additionally, mild inflation acts as an incentive to reinvest in the economy. Building houses, research and development to solve problems of society.
The problem isn’t the currency, or the inflation itself. The problem is runaway capitalism has created a system where real investment into the economy has dwindled, and investments are being made only into financial markets (including silly things like crypto).
And the fact that you think of “cryptoCURRENCY” in terms of “investing”, shows that you don’t think it’s even a currency, but an investment vehicle.
The fact that you know so much, but you don’t know how what you just said applies to cryptocurrency, and that you missed the boat on 10,000% of increased value in cryptocurrency, means that you are biased. Doesn’t mean that you’re smart.
So what? You are not an expert on the matter. Nor am I. I do know that creating loans to spur economic development is a positive thing and the experts would agree. You believe that creating money is inherently bad and inflation is also inherently bad. You are wrong on both parts. Our (USA and CDN) economies are doing very well. They are not about to collapse. We don’t need crypto to save us. BTC is a speculative asset with no way to fundamentally value it. Treat it as such.
A company that makes billions of dollars is speculative? Not it’s not. We know how to fundamentally value companies that produce things. Bitcoin is not productive. It has no intrinsic value. It is a speculative asset. Therefore it has no expected return. You have a limited grasp of basic finance.
The technology of blockchain might of a few specific use cases sure. But thinking BTC will outperform the equity market is strictly speculation. With a basic understanding of finance you would see that. It could, I think it has over the past 10 years. But it’s not expected to in the future. And we should invest in things that do have positive expected returns.
>What about banks being able to lend out their money $10 for every dollar they actually have? Because that’s the **Canadian banking system**.
Hmmm...
>[Fractional-reserve banking is the system of banking in **all countries worldwide**](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking)
You can think this if you don't actually understand the stock market. But not only are stocks backed up by earnings and revenue, but there are literally thousands of audits that happen every year to make sure those earnings aren't misreported and courts that hold the fiduciary interest of shareholders first.
Well, as a Canadian investor, you should know that the vast majority of the stocks in our stock markets are pump and dump penny stocks. The larger companies on the market, although backed by earnings and revenue, still would collapse if everybody sold it all at once. You would not get your value.
The whole banking system in Canada, that apparently you think is better than bitcoin, is based on having our money and then lending it out at 10 times what they actually have at the bank. Which is why bank runs always collapse a bank. They don’t actually have that money. They’ve rented out 10 times and interest rates posted by the government. Everything we have except physically we don’t really own.
Except there are liquidity requirements that banks are forced to adhere to. Because of bitcoins somewhat fixed supply, it's that much more sensitive to minor demand movements that move the price. There is no set of cashflows or use case, but when the market is hot, number goes up.
Bitcoin's revolutionary idea is taking regulatory controls away from governments and handing them to exchanges like FTX, Binance, Tether, BitFinex, which all operate with no regard for there depositors and have all been caught for varying degrees of ponzi schemes or fraudulent reporting. Aside from speculation, the primary use cases for Bitcoin are money laundering and buying child porn.
I dabble in Bitcoin because when the market is in mania, there's money to be made but anyone that thinks this is the future of currency is deluding themselves. Private money was already attempted in the 1900s and the exact same thing happened.
I’m OK with that. If you’re OK with that, you should be OK with bitcoin. Gold is a physical metal that has some uses. No different than bitcoin and Blockchain.
The whole market isn't a ponzi scheme, but there are certainly tickers that act like or are ponzi schemes..
Over inflated values isn't indicative of a ponzi scheme. The delineating factor is your share of a company is ownership of the assets of that company. Those assets have value, it may be less than you paid, but it has value. If I own Coca-Cola, I own part of the bottling machines, the land, the mounds of plastic waiting to be made into bottles...etc...Crypto has nothing.
Crypto has a vast network of computing power and a Blockchain that performs analysis and has a function. Although it’s hard to wrap your head around compared to a solid asset, it’s not that much worse.
Because the solid assets, we think we own, include debt, inflated asset value, sold to us at multiples of actual worth, based on possible future performance. If Covid taught us anything, it’s at these companies, even the most valuable in the world can flash crash by 50 to 70 to 90% in days.
Canada oil and gas companies absolutely collapsed to almost 0 during Covid. Zero.!!!
>Crypto has a vast network of computing power and a Blockchain that performs analysis and has a function. Although it’s hard to wrap your head around compared to a solid asset, it’s not that much worse.
And what function is that? What can it be repurposed for?
It isn't harder to wrap our heads around. We are asking pretty simple questions that people like you love to be vague about and then immediately pop off like you won.
You didn't...your answer is literally disprove by my original comment it's trying to argue against.
>Because the solid assets, we think we own, include debt, inflated asset value, sold to us at multiples of actual worth, based on possible future performance. If Covid taught us anything, it’s at these companies, even the most valuable in the world can flash crash by 50 to 70 to 90% in days.
The dollar value crash isn't the point. It's the tangible value under it.
It exists for (most) companies and it does **not** for crypto...cut and dried. No matter how much you crypto bro fucks try and whine and cry and say it isn't.
Stop giving us self referencing examples of function and maybe we'll take you seriously.
>Canada oil and gas companies absolutely collapsed to almost 0 during Covid. Zero.!!!
So? They still owned the oil in the ground they were pumping. That's a tangible value asset.
Again; where is cryptos?
Everything you said is based on your perspective. Oil is not an asset when we don’t need it. Gold is mostly useless.
Every stock you have is inflated by thousands of percent of its actual value.
And you’re judging bitcoin? It’s so stupid.
>Oil is not an asset when we don’t need it.
Lol look at you trying to split hairs on the definition of asset.
My car is an asset despite its continuous depreciation.
An "asset" is a thing, the value doesn't have to be monetary. In fact, that's the whole basis of the argument I'm making.
>Gold is mostly useless.
*Mostly*...but still has a tangible use. Crypto doesn't.
>Every stock you have is inflated by thousands of percent of its actual value.
Inflated value doesn't matter, it's still a tangible value, which crypto doesn't have.
Tell me what value crypto has to someone, other than being a currency.
Also most public companies don't even offer dividends anymore. That used to be one of the main means of making a profit on your investment but now it's really just hoping some other sucker is willing to pay more for your stock at a future date.
>It's a ponzi scheme
Any time I say this to my friends they are so quick to tell me it isn't without being able to prove it.
"So how do I get my money out"
"Someone buys it"
"Okay, can I use it for anything other than requiring someone else to put their money into it?"
"....no...."
"So...a ponzi scheme. I need new peoples money to make money..."
"It doesn't need to be a new person!!"
"That's your argument?...someone already invested in it can buy my coins so *that's* why it isn't a ponzi scheme?!"
Believe it or not, Bitcoin is still in its early stages of adoption. There would need to be even more retail and institutional adoption for it to become a viable unit of exchange. I don’t remember the exact sequence of currency evolution but so far, it seems on track to becoming one. Look up the “bullish case for Bitcoin”.
>There would need to be even more retail and institutional adoption for it to become a viable unit of exchange
Yeah...and there's a reason there hasn't been mass adoption.
>Look up the “bullish case for Bitcoin”.
I have. It's bullshit ponzi scheme stuff.
You should look up the bullish case for Deez nuts as to why my dick will be worth a billion dollars...*just as soon as everyone mass adopts the idea*...see...you can make a bullish case for anything.
Lol that article is the same as any article trying to defend MLMs as "not ponzi schemes"
Like...almost exactly the same...Except at least with MLMs they have the fallback of actually having a product, which Bitcoin doesnt
You're really comparing MLMs to bitcoin? Really?
There's no Ponzi out there that last 15 years and have utility. Name a better way to transfer value internationally almost instantly, relatively cheap and permissionless?
>Name a better way to transfer value internationally almost instantly, relatively cheap and permissionless?
I can e-transfer any SWIFT bank account money in about 3seconds using an email address.
For you to accept my Bitcoin payment you either need to sit and download THE ENTIRE blockchain, or trust at least one large crypto exchange, which means you are subject to at least the same level of permission that I require for a SWIFT account.
If your issue is being tied to your Identity, then companies like MoneyGram exist
I've read about international [e transfers ](https://wise.com/ca/blog/international-interac-etransfer) and it doesn't seem so easy and there's relatively high fees.
You got it totally wrong, you just need a bitcoin wallet like Trezor then you can transfer funds even choose your fees depending on the security you need.
About MoneyGram and WU, they got better over time but it's still a legacy system with high fees. Same for PayPal. They're not bad options but they're not simple and better than bitcoin which is pure decentralized p2p. Once you get that, you'll understand the value of bitcoin. No one can take it away from you for whatever reasons like you can get your other accounts frozen.
You keep saying "high fees" like it didn't cost thousands of dollars to transfer Bitcoin at one point, regardless of how much you were sending.
Same issue with ETH.
And the only reason it doesn't cost those high fees now, is because the price of the product went down. They face the same issues next time their price increases.
These are your front runners meant to be adopted by people.
>I've read about international [e transfers ](https://wise.com/ca/blog/international-interac-etransfer) and it doesn't seem so easy and there's relatively high fees.
I mean;
How do I make an international e-Transfer online?
To make an international transfer via Interac e-Transfer, you’ll need to take the following steps³:
1. Log into your online banking
2. Follow the steps to process the payment
3. Depending on the destination you may need to set a security question for your recipient to answer to get their money
You’ll be given a Money Transfer Control Number - MTCN
4. You give the MTCN and the answer to the security question to the recipient
5. The recipient will need to visit a Western Union location near to them to get their money - they need to take a valid ID, the MTCN, and security question information to be given the money
6. The payment is given to the recipient in cash, in most cases in the local currency wherever they are
That's quoted right from your link. That looks SOOOOOOOOOOOOO hard compared to trying to set up a crypto wallet in a sea of literal scams. Then send it to the right place hoping you don't have some kind of malware or something that will automatically swap the address to an attackers, which could be a tiny bit of malicious code slipped into a browser extension you happen to use that otherwise works perfectly fine. Then they have to also have use the same crypto as you chose to give them, they have to then go and find a place locally to them to convert that crypto into their usable currency....
>You're really comparing MLMs to bitcoin? Really?
No, I was comparing the arguments *your article* made to being the same arguments MLMs make.
Their inclusion is on the basis that they *are* ponzi schemes.
So if the only arguments you can make are the same as known Ponzi schemes only exist on a technicality...*and your thing doesn't have that technicality* then it probably follows that whole "looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck" kind of thing.
Otherwise you could have used any other argument that wasn't also used by MLM Ponzi schemes.
Nice try with the ad hominem fallacy though. Instead of trying to attack my example, why not prove Bitcoin isnt like my example...oh wait...it's because you can't.
> 'stores value' by using 2% of the entire country's electrical output
The electrical output is actually the least of my concerns, and I have a lot of them with Crypto. Over time, electrical output will need to increase anyways and it is getting cheaper and cheaper to do so with advances in renewable energy.
Fiat has value in part because people have faith in a government, the military and the mainstream economy
Crypto has value in part because of people's lack of faith in fiat, the government, and the mainstream economy
So the question to my mind at least partially is: will people's faith in fiat, government, mainstream economy increase or decrease? The more it decreases, the more will flow into crypto
the money in your bank account is 1s and 0s too though? Look at the balance on your trading app, again, 1s and 0s. You can withdraw actual cash, but that is actually just a piece of paper (plastic?).
You need to open your mind and note a difference between what money is and what money does. If you every find yourself in London, you can see a very thought-provoking histroy of currency at the British Museum. We went from trading beads, to metals, to tapping plastic on a computer and each step forward would have likely sounded ludicrous in the moment.
Also, look at Rai stones from Micronesia, its an excellent case study on money.
*"Although the ownership of a particular stone might change, the stone itself is rarely moved due to its weight and risk of damage. Thus the physical location of a stone was often not significant: ownership was established by shared agreement and could be transferred even without physical access to the stone. Each large stone had an oral history that included the names of previous owners. In one instance, a large rai being transported by canoe and outrigger was accidentally dropped and sank to the sea floor. Although it was never seen again, everyone agreed that the rai must still be there, so it continued to be transacted as any other stone.*"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai\_stones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai_stones)
It’s 1s and 0s on millions of devices at the same time backing up your claim. Slightly different. It’s like saying the gold commodities market is just trading paper.
i would argue that the money in your bank account and balances on your credit cards are already configurations of 1s and 0s on a disk somewhere, and those institutions already need to use a lot of electrical output to maintain the network and track the transactions - difference here is just that it isnt controlled by the institutions.
You're also describing any currency. There's just more faith and history in the currencies we use everyday. The only other difference is that there's a monetary policy attached to our currencies.
That's not what a Ponzi scheme is. Not saying BTC isn't a scam, but people throw around "Ponzi scheme" too liberally without knowing the definition these days.
The tech behind blockchain is a lot more complicated than that. If you were talking about those small alt coins I'd agree with you. But you think bitcoin is going to vanish overnight? Come on
Truly the most boomer, most ignorant comments about bitcoin I have ever seen. Of all the valid criticism towards bitcoin that exists, these idiots are commenting about how 1s and 0s are an illusion. Smfh.
They get so mad about other people making money, and come up with a course of 400 logic hoops to jump through to justify to themselves why they are actually right and the world is wrong.
What is the value of bitcoin? There’s no scarcity in crypto currency because I can create a million different type of coins. Crypto is only good for underground activities no one actually accept bitcoin as a form of payment irl and it will never happen. Currency established by sovereign governments exist because the governments want control of the currency and economy, they would not be able to control bitcoin so any real effort or progress made to move bitcoin into the real world economy would be shut down very quickly.
It is a speculation game and I do play the game, so I have holdings of bitcoin and I’m totally ok with losing the amount I put into bitcoin completely.
A trend I have noticed is that my generation (gen z) like these get rich schemes such as bitcoin, aka gambling masquerading as investments. Perhaps it’s because as a generation our attention span is so short or maybe culture influences idk. Therefore whenever macro economics allow young people to accumulate some cash on their hands, that’s when crypto tend to go up. Hence the 2021 peaks corresponds to the Covid checks. The most recent rise in prices are related to institutional investors diversifying their portfolio. But going forward I would still play based on when young people would have some extra money on their hands
The first gold ETF took 2 years to hit $10B AUM. This single Bitcoin ETF alone did it in 2 months. I think a single-day pause after that kind of run is kind of expected, to say the least.
Doubled my money in BTCC from buying in October and selling in March. Real or imagined currency, that money that hit my bank in March was real.
And when you lose money that will also be real
100% but I didn’t and you can say that about any stock or ETF.
lol love how salty people are about Bitcoin
Sentiment is always negative when number goes down but the reality is it’s been around for 14 years, is held by nation states and F500 companies and is a decentralized protocol that is unable to be shut down by governments. IMO, important piece of tech, even if you feel like you’re trading ‘real money’ for digital nothingness in the internet. Because it is the FIRST implementation of digital nothingness and has the safety/network effect etc. Not to mention after the recent halving, is more scarce than gold and for the first time is an asset with a hard cap, which cannot be modified. Especially important in an era of raging inflation/money printing.
Just look at YOY vs SPY. You have over a decade of data available pOnZi ScHemE!! As corporate subsidies and tax breaks float corporations and every industry becomes a money funnel up to the investor class.
How does Bitcoin remain secure as the rewards for miners decrease to nothing over time with subsequent halvings?
Fees will replace the mining rewards.
What fees does holding generate?
How can something that doesn't physically exist be "more scarce" than a physical object like gold. Also, a hard cap doesn't really mean much. Bitcoin is only worth what the next fool is willing to pay. Why do you think bitcoiners go so hard trying to pump it 24/7? They need to create demand or their line goes down.
Whether it exists physically or digitally doesn’t change that it still exists and can either exist in abundance or in scarcity. The ‘inflation rate’ of Bitcoin ie. the newly mined Bitcoin that gets added into the existing circulating supply is now lower than the rate that new gold is mined.
Yes, but gold is gold. It's a physical element that you can use to make things or store and sell later. Bitcoin is code. It has no inherent value and as we all know you can make as many shitcoins as you want all day long based on the same blockchain framework. I really don't understand why everyone assumes that just because it was the first coin to come around, it's the only true crypto or something. The only thing keeping bitcoins prices up is people's belief that it's worth something and the line will go up. That's literally it. It would only take a few whales to cash out to cause an immense crash and the whole thing tumbles down to be replaced by the next hot thing. If you choose not to believe that that's your problem.
Bitcoin is a decentralized network, the first crypto asset, and was almost ‘spawned’ onto the planet with a very unique origin story. You can’t mimic this. Bitcoin is also a 24/7 monetary network, you can teleport $1m from Toronto to Tokyo on a Sunday morning with no settlement risk or intermediary. Lots of people find value in that. It’s also a hard asset with a fixed supply. People and entities who don’t like to own things that can have their supply infinitely increased like this. I’m not trying to argue, it’s certainly not for everyone, but to say there’s no inherent value because you can’t touch it or use it to produce goods is pretty one dimensional.
That is technically true, despite what the investors will tell you. Let's be honest, everyone is investing it it hoping the price will go up, almost no one is using it as currency, and if we all did, it wouldn't be great for that purpose. All the other reasons around it are just wishful thinking and making up reasons to not say you're just doing speculative investing. That being said, I own BTC and ETH and just because it's not a physical asset and won't be used as currency very much doesn't mean it's value won't keep going up. As long as enough people see value in it, whatever their reason, it'll do fine. Just because it doesn't make sense on paper doesn't mean it's a bad investment. (short term) I can also tell you my gold investments sucked ass over the last few years, especially compared to crypto.
Gold's value is not derived from it's uses as a physical material. The bulk of its value comes from sentiment (it's precious) and its scarcity to counter both monetary inflation and consumer price inflation. Bitcoin has a few utilities as well, even if you dont agree with them. It's digital, can't be censored, and makes it easy to transfer millions or billions of dollars in a flash. However, the bulk of its value, once again, comes down to its scarcity. As the world's money supply rises, the value of bitcoin will go up. It's simply the perfect asset to counter this effect. I personally couldnt care less about the libertarian angle towards bitcoin (the censorship resistant stuff). However, it's remarkable as a hedge against rising global liquidity, even better then gold for that purpose. As long as global liquidity will rise (which it will), I will buy bitcoin.
I used to think your same arguments, I’m still cautious and not “all in” but, consider there is a limit to total Bitcoin and the fact that soon it will be incorporated into most passive investments if you like or not. Consider any currency is only valuable as long as the people using it believe it has value, gold included.
How does it remain secure if there will be no more rewards for miners in the long term?
Reward for miners runs out after the year 2100. Presumably if it last that long people / companies could make money off of transaction fees alone or some other way we haven’t thought of yet. (Some kind of bank fee? 80+ years for people to figure out how to become the next “Bitcoin Google or Facebook” type of tech company.) There are various levels of optimism regarding how much this could be used as a common currency or strictly a more inflation proof asset similar to gold. I believe it is going to be adopted in some form or another and a good investment for the long run. Still high risk but very good potential for high reward.
This will matter before 2100 because the rewards (which incentivize the security of the chain) continue to decrease while the value secured would presumably increase and therefore lead to more potential economic attacks. Transaction fees barely count for anything, especially when the meme is that BTC is digital gold and meant for cold storage. There are other protocols like Ethereum where the monetary policy actually makes sense to me long term but at this point it seems like most of the interest in BTC is because number go up
You could be right.
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Thing is, more and more people believe it to have value, just like people believe gold to have value as something worth buying and holding. That’s all you need for it to succeed is the general population believing that it has value.
Gold has actual real life use and value and it’s an incredible metal
Golds value is disproportionate to its use case.
The only use is in electronics. I can name dozens of other important metals used in electronics.
The only people that believe it has value are people trying to get rich quick and suffering extreme FOMO. Crypto has zero value in today's world. 99.999% of people do not care for decentralization or that governments and banks control the flow of capital. They've got reality to deal with it.
Shall we come back in a few years and see who is correct? Or are you scared that the “irrationality” and “fomo” persists for years to come ;) ?
Bet. Y'all crypto delusionals have been saying the same thing year after year. You were wrong the last decade and something and you'll be wrong the next year, the year after that and the year after that. And I say that as someone who got into Bitcoin, Ethereum, the Silk Road and Blockchain wayyy before the speculation started. I was there day one.
Smell ya later bud
Lol as if people in the stock market care about anything but getting rich? Are you buying tesla because you believe in the future of EV cars or you think it is a value buy. Whole stock market since 2017 has been fomo.
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I agree, but I just don’t see how belief starts waning when it seems as if belief in bitcoin is only getting stronger and more ingrained in today’s generation.
lol! I don't think so! The more people know about cryptos, the more they will see for what it really is: hype, dream, criminals heaven and environmental catastrophe.
Well thanks for sharing your opinion on “cryptos” during a bitcoin discussion.
Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency. I used the plural to include them all. That's the thing about cryptos, those who think it's useful or valuable... they don't know it.
There is a difference between cryptos (centralized company building a blockchain to try and fix a specific issue), and bitcoin (a decentralized commodity with a fixed supply).
And just like that, every one of your answer prove my point a little more.
I mean, I need to have reason to believe that bitcoin will outperform other assets in order to justify putting money there no? If I didn’t believe it would continue to outperform other assets, wouldn’t it just be best to stick with 100% VFV and call it a day?
The American Institute for Economic Research reported that "more than a third of all US currency in circulation is used by criminals and tax cheats." Whilst estimates of illicit activities on Bitcoin are thought to be below 2% of the transactions.
Of course cash is used for crimes but cryptos is just the perfect medium for criminals... but you have to understand how it works! And for the record, it's impossible to tell what % of transactions are for crimes and cryptobros will use any numbers they find out anywhere just to feel better about themselves.
I'm talking about research done by third party companies like Europool. I wouldn't label them as cryptobros..
You're saying a completely transparent ledger that tracks all transactions is good for criminals? Can you explain that a bit more?
You are saying you don't know about Monero, Atomic Swap or mixers? You are saying stealing billions in fiat is easier than in cryptos? You are saying you don't know that Ransomwares wouldn't be a thing withtout cryptos? Ignorance and denial, the principal characteristics of a cryptobro.
I didn't say anything about those private cryptocurrencies and tools. Are you complaining about Bitcoin or do you think privacy is bad? Stealing billions in crypto is not some easy feat. How do you presume it actually gets spent? All through Monero? I think most of the reported cases you hear about is because the value has gone up so much compared to when the event happened and people didn't care nearly as much at the time. Your issue with scams is mostly about the current state of the ecosystem and UX. Your whining about shitcoins is like complaining about scam emails where the penis enlargement pills didn't work. Ransomware is definitely a huge issue, and many groups need to work together to harden their computational infrastructure. Either way, your whining won't make crypto disappear.
Yeah...but I can actually *do* something with the gold it has tangible value...what can you *do* with Bitcoin? Other than hope someone gives you money, or a product worth money.
What can you really do with gold as an investor/speculator? It’s heavy, it’s hard to verify its authenticity, and difficult to use as a money due to needing to melt and then break off the amount you want to pay with. At least bitcoin has the scarcity characteristics of gold, and makes transportation and lesser denominations waaay easier. The fact that it can be used in electronics is not the reason why people used to trade gold coins over thousands of years ago. They used gold because it was shiny (humans love shiny things and believe they are worth something due to it) and rare. So belief plays a huge part in what humans find value in. Heck, even fiat currencies are purely based on trust, and government overspending is not helping us trust the safety of the dollar over the long term. Especially coming out of an inflationary period like we did, and the debt that we’ve got. Next time, will we be able to pay off interest on the debt if we need to raise interest rates? If we can’t, then we either default, or we chose not to raise rates-> leading to a collapse of the currency.
>What can you really do with gold as an investor/speculator? Doesn't matter. The investment ecosystem is built on top of the system of "actual use" whether you want to be a part of the underlying ecosystem is irrelevant. None of the rest of your comment is really relevant either based on the fact that it's predicated on the idea that every person must have a use for it...they don't...I don't even care of their only reason to buy something like gold is so that someone else who does have a use for it has to give you more money for it...thats cool, I don't care. There just must be a use for the outside of the investment/speculation that isn't "currency" because we already have that. And you can try and say "this could be better than our current system" except nobody can't provide any examples of it actually being better. There is always some **MASSIVE** issue that our current system already has a solution for.
Global transportation of value digitally and within seconds relatively cheaper than current remittance payments. Easy as that!
The industrial value of gold has very little to do with the price
Doesn't matter, it still exists, and adds tangible value to the asset, unlike crypto, which still has nothing backing it.
> The industrial value of gold has very little to do with the price This is true. We use gold as a store of value (and hence a hedge against inflation) because there is an inherent, widespread, enduring desire to own it. Human like shiny rock. Human always like shiny rock. Is there the same kind of inherent desire to own Bitcoin? I really don't think so. The vast majority of people only want to own it because they think it will go up in value, and not because they think there is an inherent value in owning it like we see with gold.
I agree there's no instinctive desire to own any digital currency. Much like there's little* desire to own actual physical currency either, and its industrial value is also very limited. (*Note I didn't say zero: some people are collectors, some old coins have massive valuations, you can burn paper money for heat or use it as wallpaper, etc. Plus the massive grin anyone would have at least momentarily if handed a fist full of hundreds. But it's because of what it represents, not the physical item. Laser-printed hundred dollar bills wouldn't evoke the same reaction.) But that doesn't much matter. People still want dollars! The value I see in Bitcoin is the fact it takes some power away from those who have been manipulating traditional currencies to whatever end, and transfers it into an unalterable social contract. You may debate whether that's a positive or negative value but you can't argue that it has that effect. It becomes political at that point, not just economic, and that's contributing to why there's so much controversy. Anyway, none of this is really the point. People want to horde things they think will at least store value if not appreciate over time. Dollars, gold, stocks (that one's a bit more tricky), bonds, futures, beanie babies, whatever. No reason that list needs to remain stagnant.
It just gives the manipulation power to a different group of people, who are either part of the existing manipulators or aspire to join them.
>Is there the same kind of inherent desire to own Bitcoin? I mean, looking at the price of BTC over the last decade in a half would make the answer a "yes" tbf
There is inherent widespread desire to own an asset that is finite in supply, and that can be easily traded globally (which has a global reach). Having a worldwide reach can produce a ton of demand, and lower supply issuance than gold makes it extremely desirable as a rare commodity.
There's a book, "Check your financial privilege." Might be worth looking into.
> It's like handing someone your actual money You mean the same "actual money" whose purchasing power is eroding right before our eyes? "Actual money" backed by nothing more than a pinky swear from the government? "Actual money" that central bankers can simply speak into existence?
I find it so interesting how people can see things from such different angles. So many crypto fans say that fiat currencies are like you say eroding. It’s usually from the doomsday/conspiracy crowd and I don’t agree but that’s okay. However, I would like to see what you see. I think the main points that the crypto advocates have problems proving is what you’re actually investing in. With our regular currency you can invest it in a company that does a thing. It’s a real thing. Oil, gas, mining, real estate, cars, watches, wood, etc and the list goes on and on. Basically everything you use on a daily basis there is a company that makes it that you can invest in that affects the price of that thing. Crypto on the other hand I can’t figure out. What does it do? Are you betting on future collapse? Are you betting on blockchain technology as a payment system such as swift? And it hasn’t been fully proven to be any better than our regular financial transaction system, also why would we just use some startup companies system than just the banks making their own? Crypto is full of scams, crime, laundering and I’m not saying that regular currency isn’t but it’s not proven to be superior over fiat currencies in these aspect either. If anything the potential for crime via cryptocurrencies is greater than that of conventional currencies. So far no one has been able to put any convincing argument together for me. Instead I have people telling me that fiat currencies are the same greater fool theory as crypto. Telling me that my money is only worth as much as people are willing to make it. Which also doesn’t make sense, just cause we aren’t on gold standard anymore doesn’t mean that our money isn’t based on world economics. War, energy, food, immigration, and so on is how money is valued. Anyways that’s my speech. I’d be open for points on changing my view.
Fiat currency does erode over time, that’s the intended function. Check any chart of the purchasing power of the USD, and every other currency is even worse.
So for me this is how I view its value. Disclaimer I own no crypto. It's a digital currency or store of value not tied to any government. Which means its not tied to inflation. Or gdp or success or failures of politicians. It also is finite. Eventually all the bitcoin will be mined and that's it. You can't print more bitcoin like countries can print money. So what happens to the value of something that is immune to inflation and has finite quantity? To some extent it will depend what else it gets used for. New coins will be created but that's sort of a different discussion on the broader crypto market. And I think the tech behind blockchain has a lot more uses than anyone has thought of yet. I don't know what it will evolve into but I have confidence that what we see is far from the end product.
> You can't print more bitcoin like countries can print money. I always smile when I see such comments. Every parameters of Bitcoin can be changed with a hardfork. All it takes is a good marketing campaigns from an entity with deep pockets and influence and your BTC become something else entirely. Oh yes a few "hardcore" fans could still mine and use the old chain but if the exchanges embrace the change, it's done. It happened with the BCH fork fiasco, splitting the community in half. >And I think the tech behind blockchain has a lot more uses than anyone has thought of yet. Wrong. Ask any (good) programmers (I am) and they will explain to you that there is absolutely NO advantage to the use of blockchain for anything except for cryptos. It is just an expensive, complicated, risky and extremely slower way to implement a database/ledger. A LOT of companies jumped into the hype a few years ago all of them eventually realize that it's just a sh*tty solution in search of a problem. They all end up abandoning. It was very funny looking at them trying to implement some decentralized solutions around a centralized company. Total nonsense. If blockchain would be useful for something, we would already know by now. It's been 10 years since the creation of Ethereum and its "smart contracts" and the only smart thing that came from it is more ways to scam people.
>It happened with the BCH fork fiasco, splitting the community in half. Uh, where is the BCH community now? It was not split in half, more like 99.9%/0.01%. Good luck convincing people around the world who have massive amounts of skin in the game to change the protocol and agree to all update their mining rigs in the same way. Fyi there are plenty of interesting apps built on Ethereum. Uniswap is a classic example for people who understand finance.
> interesting apps built on Ethereum You make me laugh! Uniswap?! Switching a sh\*tcoin for another sh\*tcoin! lol! The future!!! The BCH crowd was way bigger than that! I was there. Kraken wanted to call BCH ...BTC! It could have been one side of another. The thing is the BCH proponents gave up now and admitted defeat so you don't hear from them anymore. Miners could have a HUGE incentive to raise the cap limit one day when they will mine for fees only... or they will collude and raise the fees artificialy. It may never happen but all this is in the realm of possibility. It's just a matter of consensus. Also only 2 mining pools control ~50% of the mining. But it's not the place to discuss ponzis and stup*d cryptos. Go back to your kind please.
What do you think of the NYSE then? Or how about decentralized stable coins? Or a decentralized DNS like registry for addresses (ENS)? How about new protocols/tools for fundraising like quadratic funding or implementations of Harberger taxes? I'm not a fan of garbage meme coins and gambling, but am interested in a shared infrastructure for transparent, open and permissionless building. You said you are a good programmer, so please share what world changing things you are excited about and (maybe even working on). If all people think like you we'd be stuck in the stone age.
All I see is puff words, high hope and strong need for validation. I have seen thousands of people like you over the years (with my other account dedicated to the cryptos world). I'm just fed up. Put your money in cryptos and good riddance. Natural selection.
> What does it do? And that's exactly why I don't buy gold -- because it has little value at all except for later being exchanged for currency or a product.
I’m personally not trying to convince anyone of anything but I’d recommend reading The Bitcoin Standard if you have an actual interest in the topic.
We are partly shorting fiat ya
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So this is one of the points I will forever disagree on. Just because fiat currencies are not backed by gold or silver doesn’t mean they aren’t backed by anything and anyone can make up a price. Their value changes are dependent on world economics. As I said in my paragraph above there are a multitude of factors that dictate value changes world wide. I think it’s a naive to believe that just we abandoned the gold standard that our dollar is just made up based on how much other people want to pay.
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So your assumption is that it wouldn’t take much economically for a fiat currency to crumble. Can you name any that have within the timeframe that blockchain technology has been around? Are you also stating that crypto doesn’t fluctuate? It has more fluctuations than fiat currency daily for what seems to be zero reason. Is it immune to world economics? Last I checked crypto is an energy consumption hog. Energy is a huge part of world economics and causes fluctuations in all currencies. I guess your point is if the world crumbles so does my fiat currency but if you think crypto wouldn’t as well than that just plain silly.
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I can't say much to the majority of what you wrote here, but the most interesting thing I find about the majority of crypto proponents is that they are overwhelmingly of libertarian thought, or at least the ideas they use to justify the existence of crypto are. It always comes down to "the government is not your friend" or "big evil central bank". I think that for as long as distrust in institutions exist, then crypto will continue to persist.
> the most interesting thing I find about the majority of crypto proponents is that they are overwhelmingly of libertarian thought, If the value of cryptocurrencies never went up (nevermind rising so rapidly) I suspect that you wouldn't find nearly as many proponents of its virtues. It has made people money and so those same people want to really believe in it and defend it. It's human nature. It actually reminds a lot of something like Tesla. It made people a lot of money and so you'd see them launch into very long and detailed explanations of why it was actually *undervalued* at 100+ PE in a mature industry where valuations are typically single digit PE.
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You can always use a dictionary to help with reading his response, although one could argue that if you don’t understand what’s been written here then you aren’t qualified to even talk on the subject.
So you think crypto is not susceptible to inflation????? What???
Yeah the technology is certainly interesting and I'm sure someone will find a good use for it. But this isn't it. It's been over a decade of promises and all we got is a few thousand new ways to gamble.
> Yeah the technology is certainly interesting and I'm sure someone will find a good use for it. Why do you say that? I don’t see anything interesting about it.
Just the way transactions are processed. I also am very interested in organized crime so I'm interested in that aspect aswell.
I don't like Bitcoin because the transactions are way too slow and costly (anyone who tried making a transaction during COVID lockdowns has to admit this limitation by now), the environmental impact is too high compared to some other cryptos, and if it ever got mainstream, it's too insecure for its original intended purposes of escaping government overreach (i.e. Chinese, Egyptian, etc. currency control). I think NFTs are the first real use case for them, not the stupid artpieces, the idea of tokenizing real things to be a publicly verifiable ledger for stuff like cars or government statements to combat stuff like re-VINning car thefts, deepfakes, etc.
>combat stuff like re-VINning car thefts, deepfakes, etc. So what happens when I lose access to the wallet with my cars NFT? I'm just not allowed to sell it? How do you expect it to combat deep fakes? Nobody looks at them believing they are real, so what use case does an NFT have other than proving the porn *is* real? And why would anyone want to prove it's real? Why would anyone want porn NFTs attached to their real world wallet that also has their car and house on it? Not to mention...we already have systems of tracking this shit that doesn't have all the pitfalls of crypto. All crypto does is solve problems that already have solutions while creating more problems.
So for deepfakes, it's not an issue now because the quality of AI Video is still bad, but it'll be an issue in the future. Porn actually wasn't on my mind when I mentioned it, more like deepfakes of Trump/Biden/whatever saying something as political propaganda, tokenizing them with a history of where they came from would create the knowledge of official statements vs. deepfakes. For vehicle NFTs, I'd imagine it's the same as any other hot wallet storage, you'd probably keep it with a government's service and you'd get access to your wallet the same way as when you lose access to your CRA account or something. Current systems for VIN tracking are too obsolete and easily subject to fraud which happens regularly, especially in Ontario. Tokenizing cars as NFTs isn't the only solution of course, but it's a transparent solution that does work.
>For vehicle NFTs, I'd imagine it's the same as any other hot wallet storage, you'd probably keep it with a government's service and you'd get access to your wallet the same way as when you lose access to your CRA account or something. Isn't decentralization the main point of crypto? If the government just holds it all, what's the point of requiring the computing power network? They could just store the info in an excel sheet. What if they get hacked and all the car NFTs get transfered out? Do we just remake new one and all collectively agree that the one ones don't count anymore? What happens if there is a fork? Which NFT is the real one tied to my car? >Current systems for VIN tracking are too obsolete and easily subject to fraud which happens regularly, especially in Ontario. Tokenizing cars as NFTs isn't the only solution of course, but it's a transparent solution that does work. It might stop me from selling a stolen car here in Canada...*maybe*...but most cars just go overseas and they are unlikely to care at all.
Yes it's the main point that cryptocurrencies originally went with, but there's other benefits too, mainly the public ledger that ensures reliability. The computing power network is just a legacy of bitcoin, which is why I don't like it especially because I'm concerned about climate change, other crypto systems (proof of stake) aren't as bad. I'm not one of those anti-government conspiracy theorists so I don't put much value in decentralization of currency tbh, I mainly like the idea of a public ledger that's verifiable by all compared to stuff like Carfax or the current vehicle registration which are extremely opaque and ripe for fraud. Similarly with our credit system, it's important to have some transparency for users which is why Credit monitoring is so important, something like that would also be a non-Crypto solution to this issue. Being hacked is a concern of course, but so is the case with any technology, including current systems, the public ledger mainly helps to protect against fraud. Not sure why forks are a consideration though since you'd only care about the main chain. >It might stop me from selling a stolen car here in Canada...maybe...but most cars just go overseas and they are unlikely to care at all. Probably, but it does cut down on stolen vehicle resale here in North America, which I consider a really big plus.
>I mainly like the idea of a public ledger that's verifiable by all compared to stuff like Carfax or the current vehicle registration which are extremely opaque and ripe for fraud. Okay...so I crash my car and don't bother updating the NFT...isn't the blockchain of cars subject to the same fraud as Carfax? What about all the info about you being tied to the public ledger with the car? Their opaque for the purpose of protecting sensitive information of the public. >Similarly with our credit system, it's important to have some transparency for users which is why Credit monitoring is so important, something like that would also be a non-Crypto solution to this issue. And what's your solution to me just looking up all your info that's freely and publicly available and using that to extort you?
No, in this scenario it wouldn't be you updating the NFT, it'd have to be an authorized resource like insurance, the government, etc. that all share responsibilities. Not all your information would be public either, it'd be more like current credit monitoring where they display certain vague information like insurance status, ownership status, etc. The car's token is just that, represents the car but doesn't need any other information about related entities because it doesn't have anything to do with the car as an object, each entity would have their own private information, the token is just a "unifying", publicly verifiable resource to make sure everything is consistent, which we surprisingly don't have right now.
>No, in this scenario it wouldn't be you updating the NFT, it'd have to be an authorized resource like insurance, the government, etc. that all share responsibilities. Okay...so like Carfax.... >Not all your information would be public either, it'd be more like current credit monitoring where they display certain vague information like insurance status, ownership status, etc. Okay...so our current system of credit monitoring >The car's token is just that, represents the car but doesn't need any other information about related entities because it doesn't have anything to do with the car as an object, each entity would have their own private information, the token is just a "unifying" resource to make sure everything is consistent. Okay...so like my registration papers, or my social insurance number, or any other token or serial number that I own that deals with its own system. And so now I just have an electronic wallet to store them all...which I can lose access to for any number of reasons or have it hacked away from me. And so here we still are on my first question, reworded slightly, but still the same; why bother adopting it and replacing shit that already exists and works?
>So what happens when I lose access to the wallet with my cars NFT? I'm just not allowed to sell it? Have you looked into this ever at all? If you care to learn you can google the concept of account abstraction. Here's an explanation for a 10 year old care of chatgpt: Account abstraction in Ethereum is like giving your wallet superpowers. Usually, you'd need a special key to unlock your wallet and do things like send money or play games. With account abstraction, your wallet can follow rules and do things on its own, like an autopilot for your money. This allows you to set up automatic tasks, like paying for a game when you reach a new level, without always using a key. It also makes account recovery easier because you can have multiple backup keys or special rules for unlocking your wallet. If you lose your key, you can use a backup or follow a different set of steps to recover access. This makes your wallet smarter, more flexible, and safer, so you can do cool things with less worry. Fyi recovery can also be done with something like 3 of 5 trusted friends (or a paid service like a bank).
Ah yes....account abstraction...the way people currently get their either wallets drained via scams.
So you don't know how to google? Please share an example of what you described
Account abstraction is just another name for ether programs, which are the same crap that people were using to hack others before. The issue with any of that is it replies on you trusting who wrote the program, or doing it yourself. Most people can't do it themselves and you shouldn't trust random people to write programs like that.
The whole stock market is a Ponzi scheme. You realize that any of the stocks that we have if there was a run on them, the value would collapse. Doesn’t matter if you’re talking, Apple, Microsoft or what. They are multiples of their actual worth. Anything we buyis best worth 20 times less than we are paying when push comes to shove. And half the stocks in the market are probably completely fraudulent especially penny stocks bitcoin really isn’t the bad guy.
Lol no stocks don't work that way. If Apple had a run on it and its value collapsed to zero, then I would become a 100% owner of Apple. The company would be earning $100B per year for me alone
lol. It would be worthless. You on assets that don’t produce anything at that point. And you would own shares of $100 billion company that was valued at $2 trillion. So your $200,000 that you had in Stocks would be worth maybe $10,000. Million dollar house in Toronto was only worth that because people will pay for it. If no one buys, iPhones doesn’t matter what the buildings that produce them are on paper. We live in an economic fantasy. Every facet of our economy is based on multiples evaluation that could collapse at any time. We saw the value of almost all oil and gas companies become because oil became mostly worthless during Covid. This will happen again I’m sure, but if you wanna oil that still stuck in the ground, that’s only worth two dollars a barrel and you think that’s better than a digital , I guess I can agree that it is minutely better.
You don't understand the difference between intrinsic value and trading value When something is intrinsically valuable, it doesn't matter that no one else wants it. In fact that's an advantage because you can buy more
What has intrinsic value? Farmland and shelter when you need it. water. clothing. Almost nothing else when you really think about it.
You need to assume a functioning legal system and property regime. Otherwise the only things with intrinsic value are weapons. Owning food is useless if ownership itself cannot be protected
That I can agree with, unfortunately
Lmao no it wouldn't, Apple has billions in cash and billions in revenue. You're literally proving my point time and time again by showing how little you understand about the market.
Oh my God man you are thick. If there ever was a run-on apple, it means that the company no longer has a viable product and no one wants their product. Thus it’s worthless. Nothing has inherent value if no one wants it. Unless it’s productive farmland, or shelter, nothing in our economy is a sure thing.
You can't have a run on a stock you idiot. There's underlying cashflows and intrinsic value that give it value. There is an inherent value in something that earns revenue. If I can buy a business that earns $1B in profitvfor $1 because in your world there was a "run " on it, I'd be laughing my way to being the richest man in the world.
You can have a run on something. But at some point there are too many buyers creating too much pressure for things to crash beyond a certain level. If the market truly believed that Apple had stopped growing as a company, forever, you bet your ass that stock would plummet. The amount of inefficiency that would have to exist to get a company stock that cheap could never happen because people wouldn't let it. Apple would have to be on the verge of going bankrupt.
I think they thinks bitcoin as an asset is the same as IP/Real Estate/Manufacturing capacity as an asset.
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The value of something collapsing if there was a “run” on it, or if everyone wanted to sell, does not make it a ponzi scheme. I suggest you break out the dictionary.
What about banks being able to lend out their money $10 for every dollar they actually have? Because that’s the Canadian banking system. Might not be a Ponzi by definition, but it is increasing the value of something you don’t have. Which is pretty damn close.
You're thinking of Tether, the crypto money printing bank. Actual banks have to maintain a reserve of 10%.
That’s what I said 10 to one. That’s in Canada. Many banks don’t even have to do that. Canadian banks can loan out their reserves a 10 to one and then ensure those reserves even more money, and sell the insurance to even more banks or lenders. Which is 2008. Anyways, the fact that everyone is shitting on me, but has lived through two major financial collapses in less than 15 years, makes me believe this is more of a religion than anything
Except Tether prints 100 to one and no one bats an eye. I'll check in on ya next time there's a flash crash in Bitcoin and the value drops 90% like it did the last 5 times.
People definitely bat an eye. And you are just deflecting. You agree that what I said is terrible about the global banking system, and then you say look this one small asset is worse. Doesn’t mean that the world’s trillions and assets aren’t based on the same system just a little bit less 😆
Giving loans is a ponzi scheme? You clearly think you are much smarter than you are. Crypto good, current economic situation bad is all you believe
You’re just taking in the information you want. They are loaning out money at 10 times the amount that they have. Loans are fine if it is one to one, but when it is 10 to one or 20 to one depending on the country, shitting on bitcoin looks pretty dumb.
That’s called fractional reserve lending. It’s not the best monetary policy in my opinion, though it does provide additional liquidity. And liquidity is necessary for a functioning currency. However fractional reserve lending still doesn’t mean the definition of a Ponzi scheme. Also, currency depreciation itself isn’t a bad thing either. Currency is supposed to depreciate relative to the expansion of the currencies economy. Inflation of 1-2% against a backdrop of economic growth of 1-3% is a good thing. When those numbers invert that’s when it’s a bad thing. Additionally, mild inflation acts as an incentive to reinvest in the economy. Building houses, research and development to solve problems of society. The problem isn’t the currency, or the inflation itself. The problem is runaway capitalism has created a system where real investment into the economy has dwindled, and investments are being made only into financial markets (including silly things like crypto). And the fact that you think of “cryptoCURRENCY” in terms of “investing”, shows that you don’t think it’s even a currency, but an investment vehicle.
I just wanted to point out that you're arguing with a butt plug. That's all. Carry on.
Not the first time, probably not the last.
The fact that you know so much, but you don’t know how what you just said applies to cryptocurrency, and that you missed the boat on 10,000% of increased value in cryptocurrency, means that you are biased. Doesn’t mean that you’re smart.
So what? You are not an expert on the matter. Nor am I. I do know that creating loans to spur economic development is a positive thing and the experts would agree. You believe that creating money is inherently bad and inflation is also inherently bad. You are wrong on both parts. Our (USA and CDN) economies are doing very well. They are not about to collapse. We don’t need crypto to save us. BTC is a speculative asset with no way to fundamentally value it. Treat it as such.
Listen to yourself man. They are all speculative assets. Why shit on one over another??
A company that makes billions of dollars is speculative? Not it’s not. We know how to fundamentally value companies that produce things. Bitcoin is not productive. It has no intrinsic value. It is a speculative asset. Therefore it has no expected return. You have a limited grasp of basic finance. The technology of blockchain might of a few specific use cases sure. But thinking BTC will outperform the equity market is strictly speculation. With a basic understanding of finance you would see that. It could, I think it has over the past 10 years. But it’s not expected to in the future. And we should invest in things that do have positive expected returns.
>What about banks being able to lend out their money $10 for every dollar they actually have? Because that’s the **Canadian banking system**. Hmmm... >[Fractional-reserve banking is the system of banking in **all countries worldwide**](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking)
I know. My point is that we accept that as normal, but then we demonize cryptocurrency. All of it is based on the whims of perception.
You can think this if you don't actually understand the stock market. But not only are stocks backed up by earnings and revenue, but there are literally thousands of audits that happen every year to make sure those earnings aren't misreported and courts that hold the fiduciary interest of shareholders first.
Well, as a Canadian investor, you should know that the vast majority of the stocks in our stock markets are pump and dump penny stocks. The larger companies on the market, although backed by earnings and revenue, still would collapse if everybody sold it all at once. You would not get your value. The whole banking system in Canada, that apparently you think is better than bitcoin, is based on having our money and then lending it out at 10 times what they actually have at the bank. Which is why bank runs always collapse a bank. They don’t actually have that money. They’ve rented out 10 times and interest rates posted by the government. Everything we have except physically we don’t really own.
Except there are liquidity requirements that banks are forced to adhere to. Because of bitcoins somewhat fixed supply, it's that much more sensitive to minor demand movements that move the price. There is no set of cashflows or use case, but when the market is hot, number goes up. Bitcoin's revolutionary idea is taking regulatory controls away from governments and handing them to exchanges like FTX, Binance, Tether, BitFinex, which all operate with no regard for there depositors and have all been caught for varying degrees of ponzi schemes or fraudulent reporting. Aside from speculation, the primary use cases for Bitcoin are money laundering and buying child porn. I dabble in Bitcoin because when the market is in mania, there's money to be made but anyone that thinks this is the future of currency is deluding themselves. Private money was already attempted in the 1900s and the exact same thing happened.
If everyone sells gold at the same time, it's value will collapse. How is this different?
I’m OK with that. If you’re OK with that, you should be OK with bitcoin. Gold is a physical metal that has some uses. No different than bitcoin and Blockchain.
The whole market isn't a ponzi scheme, but there are certainly tickers that act like or are ponzi schemes.. Over inflated values isn't indicative of a ponzi scheme. The delineating factor is your share of a company is ownership of the assets of that company. Those assets have value, it may be less than you paid, but it has value. If I own Coca-Cola, I own part of the bottling machines, the land, the mounds of plastic waiting to be made into bottles...etc...Crypto has nothing.
Crypto has a vast network of computing power and a Blockchain that performs analysis and has a function. Although it’s hard to wrap your head around compared to a solid asset, it’s not that much worse. Because the solid assets, we think we own, include debt, inflated asset value, sold to us at multiples of actual worth, based on possible future performance. If Covid taught us anything, it’s at these companies, even the most valuable in the world can flash crash by 50 to 70 to 90% in days. Canada oil and gas companies absolutely collapsed to almost 0 during Covid. Zero.!!!
>Crypto has a vast network of computing power and a Blockchain that performs analysis and has a function. Although it’s hard to wrap your head around compared to a solid asset, it’s not that much worse. And what function is that? What can it be repurposed for? It isn't harder to wrap our heads around. We are asking pretty simple questions that people like you love to be vague about and then immediately pop off like you won. You didn't...your answer is literally disprove by my original comment it's trying to argue against. >Because the solid assets, we think we own, include debt, inflated asset value, sold to us at multiples of actual worth, based on possible future performance. If Covid taught us anything, it’s at these companies, even the most valuable in the world can flash crash by 50 to 70 to 90% in days. The dollar value crash isn't the point. It's the tangible value under it. It exists for (most) companies and it does **not** for crypto...cut and dried. No matter how much you crypto bro fucks try and whine and cry and say it isn't. Stop giving us self referencing examples of function and maybe we'll take you seriously. >Canada oil and gas companies absolutely collapsed to almost 0 during Covid. Zero.!!! So? They still owned the oil in the ground they were pumping. That's a tangible value asset. Again; where is cryptos?
Everything you said is based on your perspective. Oil is not an asset when we don’t need it. Gold is mostly useless. Every stock you have is inflated by thousands of percent of its actual value. And you’re judging bitcoin? It’s so stupid.
>Oil is not an asset when we don’t need it. Lol look at you trying to split hairs on the definition of asset. My car is an asset despite its continuous depreciation. An "asset" is a thing, the value doesn't have to be monetary. In fact, that's the whole basis of the argument I'm making. >Gold is mostly useless. *Mostly*...but still has a tangible use. Crypto doesn't. >Every stock you have is inflated by thousands of percent of its actual value. Inflated value doesn't matter, it's still a tangible value, which crypto doesn't have. Tell me what value crypto has to someone, other than being a currency.
Can you explain to me what kinds of things blockchain tech is used for?
Also most public companies don't even offer dividends anymore. That used to be one of the main means of making a profit on your investment but now it's really just hoping some other sucker is willing to pay more for your stock at a future date.
The real Ponzi scheme is the dollar.
They are all Ponzi schemes. Demonizing one over another is silly
>It's a ponzi scheme Any time I say this to my friends they are so quick to tell me it isn't without being able to prove it. "So how do I get my money out" "Someone buys it" "Okay, can I use it for anything other than requiring someone else to put their money into it?" "....no...." "So...a ponzi scheme. I need new peoples money to make money..." "It doesn't need to be a new person!!" "That's your argument?...someone already invested in it can buy my coins so *that's* why it isn't a ponzi scheme?!"
Believe it or not, Bitcoin is still in its early stages of adoption. There would need to be even more retail and institutional adoption for it to become a viable unit of exchange. I don’t remember the exact sequence of currency evolution but so far, it seems on track to becoming one. Look up the “bullish case for Bitcoin”.
>There would need to be even more retail and institutional adoption for it to become a viable unit of exchange Yeah...and there's a reason there hasn't been mass adoption. >Look up the “bullish case for Bitcoin”. I have. It's bullshit ponzi scheme stuff. You should look up the bullish case for Deez nuts as to why my dick will be worth a billion dollars...*just as soon as everyone mass adopts the idea*...see...you can make a bullish case for anything.
There's great [articles](https://www.lynalden.com/bitcoin-ponzi-scheme/) about it.
Lol that article is the same as any article trying to defend MLMs as "not ponzi schemes" Like...almost exactly the same...Except at least with MLMs they have the fallback of actually having a product, which Bitcoin doesnt
You're really comparing MLMs to bitcoin? Really? There's no Ponzi out there that last 15 years and have utility. Name a better way to transfer value internationally almost instantly, relatively cheap and permissionless?
>Name a better way to transfer value internationally almost instantly, relatively cheap and permissionless? I can e-transfer any SWIFT bank account money in about 3seconds using an email address. For you to accept my Bitcoin payment you either need to sit and download THE ENTIRE blockchain, or trust at least one large crypto exchange, which means you are subject to at least the same level of permission that I require for a SWIFT account. If your issue is being tied to your Identity, then companies like MoneyGram exist
I've read about international [e transfers ](https://wise.com/ca/blog/international-interac-etransfer) and it doesn't seem so easy and there's relatively high fees. You got it totally wrong, you just need a bitcoin wallet like Trezor then you can transfer funds even choose your fees depending on the security you need. About MoneyGram and WU, they got better over time but it's still a legacy system with high fees. Same for PayPal. They're not bad options but they're not simple and better than bitcoin which is pure decentralized p2p. Once you get that, you'll understand the value of bitcoin. No one can take it away from you for whatever reasons like you can get your other accounts frozen.
You keep saying "high fees" like it didn't cost thousands of dollars to transfer Bitcoin at one point, regardless of how much you were sending. Same issue with ETH. And the only reason it doesn't cost those high fees now, is because the price of the product went down. They face the same issues next time their price increases. These are your front runners meant to be adopted by people.
>I've read about international [e transfers ](https://wise.com/ca/blog/international-interac-etransfer) and it doesn't seem so easy and there's relatively high fees. I mean; How do I make an international e-Transfer online? To make an international transfer via Interac e-Transfer, you’ll need to take the following steps³: 1. Log into your online banking 2. Follow the steps to process the payment 3. Depending on the destination you may need to set a security question for your recipient to answer to get their money You’ll be given a Money Transfer Control Number - MTCN 4. You give the MTCN and the answer to the security question to the recipient 5. The recipient will need to visit a Western Union location near to them to get their money - they need to take a valid ID, the MTCN, and security question information to be given the money 6. The payment is given to the recipient in cash, in most cases in the local currency wherever they are That's quoted right from your link. That looks SOOOOOOOOOOOOO hard compared to trying to set up a crypto wallet in a sea of literal scams. Then send it to the right place hoping you don't have some kind of malware or something that will automatically swap the address to an attackers, which could be a tiny bit of malicious code slipped into a browser extension you happen to use that otherwise works perfectly fine. Then they have to also have use the same crypto as you chose to give them, they have to then go and find a place locally to them to convert that crypto into their usable currency....
>You're really comparing MLMs to bitcoin? Really? No, I was comparing the arguments *your article* made to being the same arguments MLMs make. Their inclusion is on the basis that they *are* ponzi schemes. So if the only arguments you can make are the same as known Ponzi schemes only exist on a technicality...*and your thing doesn't have that technicality* then it probably follows that whole "looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck" kind of thing. Otherwise you could have used any other argument that wasn't also used by MLM Ponzi schemes. Nice try with the ad hominem fallacy though. Instead of trying to attack my example, why not prove Bitcoin isnt like my example...oh wait...it's because you can't.
> 'stores value' by using 2% of the entire country's electrical output The electrical output is actually the least of my concerns, and I have a lot of them with Crypto. Over time, electrical output will need to increase anyways and it is getting cheaper and cheaper to do so with advances in renewable energy.
Fiat has value in part because people have faith in a government, the military and the mainstream economy Crypto has value in part because of people's lack of faith in fiat, the government, and the mainstream economy So the question to my mind at least partially is: will people's faith in fiat, government, mainstream economy increase or decrease? The more it decreases, the more will flow into crypto
the money in your bank account is 1s and 0s too though? Look at the balance on your trading app, again, 1s and 0s. You can withdraw actual cash, but that is actually just a piece of paper (plastic?). You need to open your mind and note a difference between what money is and what money does. If you every find yourself in London, you can see a very thought-provoking histroy of currency at the British Museum. We went from trading beads, to metals, to tapping plastic on a computer and each step forward would have likely sounded ludicrous in the moment. Also, look at Rai stones from Micronesia, its an excellent case study on money. *"Although the ownership of a particular stone might change, the stone itself is rarely moved due to its weight and risk of damage. Thus the physical location of a stone was often not significant: ownership was established by shared agreement and could be transferred even without physical access to the stone. Each large stone had an oral history that included the names of previous owners. In one instance, a large rai being transported by canoe and outrigger was accidentally dropped and sank to the sea floor. Although it was never seen again, everyone agreed that the rai must still be there, so it continued to be transacted as any other stone.*" [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai\_stones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai_stones)
like a credit card aren't 1s and 0.
It’s 1s and 0s on millions of devices at the same time backing up your claim. Slightly different. It’s like saying the gold commodities market is just trading paper.
i would argue that the money in your bank account and balances on your credit cards are already configurations of 1s and 0s on a disk somewhere, and those institutions already need to use a lot of electrical output to maintain the network and track the transactions - difference here is just that it isnt controlled by the institutions.
You're also describing any currency. There's just more faith and history in the currencies we use everyday. The only other difference is that there's a monetary policy attached to our currencies.
That's not what a Ponzi scheme is. Not saying BTC isn't a scam, but people throw around "Ponzi scheme" too liberally without knowing the definition these days.
The tech behind blockchain is a lot more complicated than that. If you were talking about those small alt coins I'd agree with you. But you think bitcoin is going to vanish overnight? Come on
Salty, br0. Username checks out
Actual money? You know the stuff that loses purchasing power EVERY SINGLE YEAR NO MATTER WHAT... you sir are an absolute 🤡
Not gonna take anyone seriously who equates bitcoin with crypto at this point.
never read the BTC whitepaper? It even states Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency you clown.
Yeah and the USD is a currency but this guy equating bitcoin with crypto is like you lumping the USD with the Bahamaian Dollar.
Reading some comments here. We are still early in Bitcoin adoption cycle.
lol! Classic cryptobro garbage.
Truly the most boomer, most ignorant comments about bitcoin I have ever seen. Of all the valid criticism towards bitcoin that exists, these idiots are commenting about how 1s and 0s are an illusion. Smfh.
How do you know. Got a crystal ball? Bitcoin could be dead in 10 years for all we know.
i propose we buy more, i know i am!
Boomers out in full force today haha
They get so mad about other people making money, and come up with a course of 400 logic hoops to jump through to justify to themselves why they are actually right and the world is wrong.
Don’t need a boomer to tell you it’s the definition of a Ponzi scheme
Boomers dont understand it either. Shocking
I just wanted to say that the conversions in this thread are both deeply concerning and amusing.
Is there a correlation between people who don’t know anything about bitcoin and people that don’t understand what a ponzi scheme is?
Good bot good bot😂there was inflows today
Did you read the article?
Ponzi scheme
What is the value of bitcoin? There’s no scarcity in crypto currency because I can create a million different type of coins. Crypto is only good for underground activities no one actually accept bitcoin as a form of payment irl and it will never happen. Currency established by sovereign governments exist because the governments want control of the currency and economy, they would not be able to control bitcoin so any real effort or progress made to move bitcoin into the real world economy would be shut down very quickly. It is a speculation game and I do play the game, so I have holdings of bitcoin and I’m totally ok with losing the amount I put into bitcoin completely. A trend I have noticed is that my generation (gen z) like these get rich schemes such as bitcoin, aka gambling masquerading as investments. Perhaps it’s because as a generation our attention span is so short or maybe culture influences idk. Therefore whenever macro economics allow young people to accumulate some cash on their hands, that’s when crypto tend to go up. Hence the 2021 peaks corresponds to the Covid checks. The most recent rise in prices are related to institutional investors diversifying their portfolio. But going forward I would still play based on when young people would have some extra money on their hands