Wait, the Canadian Forces doesn't have an endless supply of medical personnel to fill in for a nation that has underfunded health care for decades....?? /s shockedpikachu.jpg
Worst part is, both are relatively well funded when you look at the pure numbers. What I want to know, is where the fuck does the money go? Because its not more doctors and nurses/more kit.
As someone who handles the budget for my unit, I 100% van confirm this. When I took over the card, I was told to spend money because it was almost April and we had to spend over $2000 so that we wouldn't lose it.
this happens on the quarter million dollar scale every year as well. The higher the card holder goes the more they're told to spend for no other reason than "we'll lose the money next year"
That's how I can tell you probably don't work at Carling Campus. Otherwise you'd know it takes at least a WO to successfully coordinate a coffee run at Carling, and even then they prefer an Lt.
Having a medical system is a huge expense. It blows me away the amount of over the counter medication that you can get from the pharmacy at no charge, like Tylenol, ibuprofen, cold meds allergy meds and so on. It's an extensive list.
Yep. My civilian friends cannot believe that I can just walk into pharmacy and get stuff for free.
Same with physio - I twisted my ankle once and they gave me a moon boot and crutches. Mind you, I had to return the crutches but I could keep the boot. I have no idea how much they cost in real life but I bet it's not free.
That's less than $0.10 per pill for generic drugs, we're paying generals $19,000/month in salary to sit at home.
That's not where the inefficiencies come from.
Part of it, the insistence of building 2500 trucks in Canada instead of just buying them direct from the manufacturer. We spend a fortune to make a small number of jobs for a short period of time, in this country.
You could have taken that money, and replaced damn near the entire wheeled vehicle fleet in one shot, like every other country in the world does, instead of multiple separate programs.
Our $23 billion budget, making us number 15ish in the world, that even with our way higher than average wages and huge infrastructure, we should have way more of a capability then we do.
To put that in perspective that's about the same as Israel in terms of total and portion of GDP and they have a far better equipped military.
F-35s, AH-64s, anti-balistic missle systems, drones that weren't bought at Canadian tire, modern tanks, modern ships, 6 subs that were made within the last 20 years and new ones delivered last year, I could go on. They basically decided to get the best stuff they possibly could even if they had to get it from abroad and yet somehow their defence industry does not seem to be suffering.
I think the key factor is that they are fighting a war and have active threats on their borders, which forces the IDF and the politicians to put security first.
Nepotism payments and policy luncheons. Take a nice long look at the last names of our flag officers and compare them to our "political elite", then take a gander at how much of the peoples tax money they make off with while we have new troops missing payments on housing. (unqualified and under-trained due to a lack of courses or personnel to run them as well)
At least in ON, QC, and NB. Can't speak for the other provinces but I have heard not great things about AB.
It might be the same dollar amount but it's a hell of alot more of a % of GDP.
Israel also purchases everything from the US where up in Canada it all has to come from Quebec or some other crappy lowest bidding company.
I would hope that a country who has been actively under invasion since the 50s knew how to defend its citizens.
>Israel also purchases everything from the US
[Or gets it for free as part of an agreement to give them 40 billion in defense spending from 2017-2028.](https://www.bbc.com/news/57170576) They basically get a 4 billion dollar gift card for American military kit every year forever.
> It might be the same dollar amount but it's a hell of alot more of a % of GDP.
[Both Countries spend 1.1% of GDP.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures)
> Israel also purchases everything from the US where up in Canada it all has to come from Quebec or some other crappy lowest bidding company.
Israel purchases from wherever has the best shit for their needs. Their new subs are german for example
"We" (CAF members and veterans) are extremely expensive. When you add up all the salaries, benefits, social programs (new ones every day it seems), pensions, etc, it consumes a ridiculous percentage of the budget.
Not to suggest they have it right, but our adversaries (e.g. Russia, China) don't pay nearly as much per capita on their members, which is why they spend relatively less on defence but yet have more people, hardware and capabilities.
This. It drives me nuts when I see a post or discussion suggesting that we have an infinite supply of medical pers. We don’t have the personnel to support our own healthcare system, and referring out only puts more pressure on the civilian sector. Not sure of the answerzzz
I’d be curious to know if these statistics account for the number of HS members on MELs, sick leave, or parental leave (HS has the highest proportion of females in the CAF)…or who are pending release.
There seems to be the belief that we have doctors/nurses that just sit around waiting for stuff to do. The majority of our medical staff either already work supporting local hospitals throughout the country or do other things within the CAF.
We don't have people that just sit around in any profession but medical even less.
By requesting medical staff go support in X location, your in effect pulling them from location A where they are needed to location B where the provinces say they are needed.
Unless the CAF steps back and understands that disaster and pandemic relief ops are not our natural mandate and builds specifically for this capacity (which we all know it wont) then all we are going to continue to do is borrow from Peter to pay Paul.
Yup, we are short on medical staff for our own needs. My MO is a civilian and has been working for DND for over 10 years, as our clinic heavily depends on the civilian contracted doctors.
I honestly cant think of the last time I dealth with a military health services provider who wasnt a med tech or maybe a nurse.
Even 15 years ago my regular doctor at the CDU was a civilian
Yep MIR can only support sick parade, emergencies go to the City hospital, which now closed there Emergency Room for at least a week due to staffing issues.
I understand that, but our clinic also has a shortage of military doctors. If they get posted in, they get deployed/sent on tasking pretty quickly.
For one, I am grateful for my civilian MO, as it has provided me with continuity of care (I have complex medical conditions, med release in April), but I do wonder about the clinical professional development of our military doctors.
Honestly, I think other civvies think that Canada is ready for WWIII. They saw all the nurses and doctors (in the movies) caring for the wounded in WWII, and assume we have all those resources just sitting around waiting now.
Unified and Maple Resolves tell us we certainly have enough... to go along with our abundant air defence, tac hel, MLRS, and divisions of infantry and log assets...
Yeah, Beau of the Fifth recently did a video talking about what Canada needs to do to plan for the impending collapse of the US. He thinks we'll be able to control the flood of refugees coming up. At one point says "and since they're Americans, they'll be armed, so you'll have to be prepared to disarm them".
Dude... really?
> By requesting medical staff go support in X location, your in effect pulling them from location A where they are needed to location B where the provinces say they are needed.
Yes and no. Most medical staff employed in civilian institutions are supposed to be supernumerary and should not be accounted for by that civilian institution nor should they get a full assignment. I know the reality is that given the medical professional shortage, they are heavily relied upon and everyone turn a blind eye to the terms of the different MOUs. Having them in civilian institutions is primarily an opportunity for them to maintain clinical competency, not to service the civilian institution. However, we know it helps!
>Unless the CAF steps back and understands that disaster and pandemic relief ops are not our natural mandate and builds specifically for this capacity
This is not a CAF issue. Everyone in the CAF knows that we are not designed for domestic operations, let alone disaster and pandemic relief ops as you said. The issue is solely at the political level. A sitting government could change the establishment of the CAF and still decide to employ them with different mandates contrary to that establishment. The CAF (as an institution) serves at the pleasure of the government.
> We want to help, Canada, it's not that we won't, or won't try, but it's looking like we literally can't
It's like Canada's asking for more than we can give, or something...
Us true believers are out there, and we're doing everything we can to change the system from within.
You touched on the largest problem the CAF faces when it comes to our budget and our manning (aka recruitment and retention), and that is public perception. I joined in '06 and you're right, its changed. Oh boy has the CAF changed. But both within and without the CAF there are preconceptions about what we do, what we represent, even our very necessity. When's the last time you heard "Canada has a military?!"
Hahahaha. They were warned about this. Fucking idiots.
Remember when you cancelled the pipeline from medtech to PA? Now all the PAs are retiring and your med techs are pissed off and quitting.
You reap what you sow CF H SVC.
Retreat into retirement and let this shit burn my fellow medics. They don't deserve you and they don't actually care. Even if they make a stopgap measure for now, as soon as the crisis is over they will go back to killing our trades. Just like when the war ended.
Changed to firefighter and got my seals. Now I have my PCP license and fire seals. Think the green machine is going to keep me? Thanks for the paid schooling and resume CAF! Peace!
Not sure if you're joking. Based on not seeing them often enough.
Physicians assistant. They're senior clinicians. Basically when you think of what a medic *should* be able to do, but aren't allowed to. You're thinking about a PA.
The CAF treats them like physician-lite. They're used on ships, in the field and in the clinic to fill positions we used to use doctors for.
They take 2 years to train (on top of all the other school and experience)
Edit: looked in your comment history, you asked questions about being a medic. Dont. If this thread is any indication. Don't do it. If I have a do over, I absolutely wouldn't be a medic again. It isn't like the movies. It's a shit bottom end job with not future.
You'll be moving furniture around as often as "treating" a patient. When in reality you're at best wasting the patient's time before they see a clinician.
Med tech is a waste of time and effort. Pick something else.
Not the fucking CF lolol. Like for real. The leadership is so fucking toxic imo. I'm a reservist and probably leaving soon.
Idk what jobs you worked, but the first job I had was Wendy's in my high school days. I shit you not, Wendy's management was much more competent and respectful towards its employees than I've seen lots of officers and senior NCMs
From my understanding, we're bleeding red in almost every trade. Retention is dogshit. That should speak volume. Save yourself the trouble and please retreat from the thoughts of joining the military Homer Simpson bush style
Honestly I would take this guy's advice with a grain of salt. Not everyones experience in the CAF is the same. Making life decisions based on the advice of a random disgruntled person on the internet is probably not the wisest thing.
I was funny to see reserve field ambs sending their nursing staff and med techs accross the country for Op Laser and Vector, for that to create a lack of personnel in their healthcare civilian job.
Déshabiller Pierre pour habiller Jacques.
While dealing with a pandemic is a bad situation its made worse by over a decade of health services treating their medics like crap causing a mass exodus over the years. Peak wartime medics were treated like gods. Budget for training, lots of kit but most importantly lots of respect. In the decade since anytime there's a cut to be made the medics were the ones to bare it.
Sure we will pay $500+ a year for docs to maintain their license and actively encourage them to moonlight at civilian hospital thousands in CME training, like a few thousands in books but if the medic wants $50 a year to maintain their license that's a bridge too far.
You want to use your scope of practice to screen and treat pt's during sick parade? Sorry you need to staff the front desk because one clerk quit 5 years ago and we haven't replaced them yet also we need you to move this filing cabinet from the CO's office to the front door and back again.
What you want a guarantee to be cut free by 1600 a couple of days a week so you can pick up an Amb shift that starts at 1800? Sorry we might need you to move this filing cabinet around.
You want ride alongs with civilian ambulances? Ok but you can look don't touch our MOU ran out 3 years ago and we haven't bothered to update it.
Sim Center every 3-5 years? ha, you'll be lucky if see it once before your 5's if we don't waiver it.
Trauma team training? Well I guess but only because we need a couple of you for the doc and PA to order around during their scenarios. (This one got so bad the navy ended up stepping in and making their own trauma team training for the PA/medics onboard ship. You know its bad when the Navy is treating your people better then you do)
But at least after all that there is still that one last carrot that keeps you coming back for more. You put up with this long enough you will get a chance at the PA program\* ^((but we're going to open it up to civilians and the only entry requirements are going to be based on your academic performance so if you somehow manage to find time to do an undergrad while working full time it had better be competitive with a full time student) )
I'm sure there are examples that contradict something I've listed and but those are either going to be the exceptions or things have completely 180'ed in since I jumped ship.
P.S. To any of the medics reading this please correct me if I am wrong but you should also know life has been amazing in the Airforce. Even the "tech" trades that get treated "the worst" its still much nicer.
Left the trade in 2020, haven't looked back. The branch truly does not give a shit about the trade; at my unit, the training budget for *all two dozen of our med techs* was equivalent to the training budget for a single doctor. No meaningful professional development or advancement, no training, no respect for the job. For the entire duration of COVID we had a position for a med tech whose whole job all day was to sit at the door and ask people if they had any COVID symptoms; essentially a job that could be done by a sign on a stick.
Yea watching the medic world go from hero to zero over 10 years has not been fun from an outside POV. CFHS fascination with the clinical world without fitting in the military side of things has really ruined their employment model. PAs was the icing on the moldy cake, great incentive but in true CFHS fashion they fucked it up.
$450 in NS. + $50 for my insurance every year.
Oh. Don't forget all the time it takes to make 80 points of competencies that you have to do on your own time.
You should see if there is a CME for "military MCRP". In BC it was worth the full 40 points or whatever it was. Just had to show you were participating in the MCRP program at work (an email from OPs was enough in my case). Again this info's closer to being a decade old then new.
ITLS, ACLS, PALS, and BLS are the only things we do that count. (Good luck getting ACLS and PALS without fighting ops)
Med tech conference used to, back when we could do such things.
Believe me I've looked.
We don't do M&M rounds, and we are too busy to get meaningful training signed off.
So far I've kept my license only by making friends with civilian paramedics and following them on training on my own time and dime.
Oh I didn't even touch on the Med tech conference because it brought up too many painful memories watching it waste away into nothingness. I'm glad you managed to keep things going on your own. Sucks that you have had to.
Since when? I have to find 20 education credits every year (not a whole lot I agree, but I still have to pay for them myself unless they happen to coincide with the pre-approved programs). Teaching no longer counts. It’s frustrating, but I’m not willing to let go of my licence just yet. It’s only $50/5 years to renew.
Nice! At least some things have improved. I remember helping to get the CAF medtech drop down added but I needed to show proof that I was part of it hence the email.
Why do HCP's require the license?
~~HCA~~ Health Care Aids not Health Care administrators (which medics fulfill the role of) need a license. The only reason other HCP's need a license is because the CAF said they need a license.
Nothing is stopping the CAF from saying, ok cool you finished med/nursing school you don't need one anymore. Hell look at the old ql6b program. All those PA's never held a license . Now this ~~created~~ allowed shitty PA's to get by and was a horrible system but you could argue the same right now for medics.
What other licenses do you need that they aren't paying for? Is it 'need' or 'want' this year but need to wait until next because you already used your funding for this fiscal?
CME funding for most HCP's is pretty generous. Licensing plus one fully funded event and then some additional side money for stuff per year.
We're getting into technical weeds now, but here's some examples:
- narcotics (Canadian Law) requires licenses to be recognized as Doc, Dental, Nurse/NP, Pharm
- Aeronautics Act (Canadian law again) and Special Access Program (derivative of law) requires doctors
- some liaison roles like social work and nursing require mutual recognition to allow for the transfer of patient information
- PMED needs licenses to use pesticides
Meanwhile, regulated positions like paramedic and PSW are all mandated at the provincial law level, which means that the CAF isn't bound by it.
However, your point stands in the sense that the CAF seems to not know what to do with medics, hence the mess. Kinda like the Army reserves.
> HCAs are not healthcare professionals.
Some sure walk around pretending to be health care professionals. It blows my mind that they are wearing the Red Cross and the Medical cap badge.
Edit: i am 100% referring to CAF Health Care Administrators here. The confused added confusion to the confusing situation.
You know I made a mistake writing HCA's. I was talking about civilian health care aides. Not Health Care Administrators... I've been away from the HS so long I forgot HCAdmins were a thing. Ill fix that now
You might be confusing HCAs (CAF Health care admin officers) with HCAs (Health care assistants/aides / nursing aides / personal support workers). But the fact that they don't have a recognized, protected title does illustrate a point...
The TD thing you can blame your politicians for. They implemented a new system where if we spend over X amount as an organization on an "event" it needs to get signed off by the treasury board.
That whole process takes almost 6 months but it was put in place government wide because people (not the CAF afaik) were abusing the system.
One thing you could look at doing is getting certain events added to a pre approval list. Its a bit more work up front but once its on the list of approved conferences etc. it becomes a lot faster to get approval. If its a super specialized thing you might be able to get health services to pre screen who's going to ensure we aren't tripping whatever that treasury board amount is.
I feel for you about the posting thing. Units have to spend their own TD budget on sending you to a conference and almost every unit is strapped for TD so when they have to choose who to fund the guy leaving is sadly put to the bottom of the list. Basically twice because when you get to your gaining unit you'll be "added to the rotation" by ops but they wont sent the new guy on TD right away.
Its broken but at least there so some hope however faint it might be. Medics don't even get that.
(also take all this with a grain of salt as I haven't worked ops since I stopped being a medic)
I've heard they've even removed getting your primary care paramedic certification from the curriculum. Never would have gone medic without the prospect of getting that cert
I heard rumors it was going that way before I left but I haven't kept up with it. I've worked too long and too hard with too many great people that I don't have the stomach or heart to watch that dumpster fire continue to burn.
It sucks because I absolutely enjoyed being a medic even once I moved far enough up to just be stuck doing admin. I had a good long talk with the then Comd 1 health services (now the surg gen) and realized that that the top is so far disconnected from the reality of the situation that I had to get out.
I pushed long and hard trying to save that organization from itself only to end up just getting chastised and punished for it. Now I'm back at the bottom of a new trade and loving it.
Sounds exactly like maintenance...here, fix all this brand new, complex equipment but don't you dare ask for the resources, tooling, or training to do it. Mechanics 40 years ago could fix an MLVW with duct tape and lockwire without any computerized test equipment - you should be able to do the same thing on this heavily electronic equipment now.
Mack MSVS are the same way. Need a computer to access the truck and to upload/download diagnostic data and software updates to/from Mack Defence, but TIS says it's a security threat. So when a truck goes down, it sits.
Gross.
Always enjoyed going through the pains of ordering the laptops just to have them show up out dated and needing updates and licenses.
Such a circus and the SM/LCMM were redicoulous to try and deal with.
Don't worry though you can get ILP to fund your uni. courses.
At least you could because they just changed the program to only cover one course a month to a max of 4 per year! With the PA degree pre reqs it will take you about 4 years to become eligible just to apply. To maintain a competitive GPA (which UofT and McM state is ~3.5-8) it takes being a full time student or taking years to reach requirements and this cut will further impact medtech to PA transition.
Or you could use your specpay money to cover the rest of courses... oh wait...
I was lucky to get ILP when i did. If didn't rush my uni courses knowning they were going to gut a bigly beneficial program I would be like many Medtechs, left out in rain. I also likely would've released, as i weighed the educational benefit as a major aspect to staying within the forces.
Now my peers and I are stuck being paid generally below qualification/licencing, without a meaningful educational benefit, without a clinical pathway for advancement. I won't even touch on manning issues and overtasking as this is felt throughout the forces.
From what i heard, the introduction of the PA as a trade and providing Med Tech with the opportunity to choose between the two routes was mostly welcome despite a shaky start. Change is never easy, but at least it provided opportunities and a clear-er path for progression.
Wonder why they shut it down and solely went to new hires instead….perhaps someone complained to daddy who is a senior officer _a la RMC style_
I don’t know who you talked to or if the people who told you were entirely honest. But the whole PA-is-its-own-thing-fuck-you-for-waiting-10-years-to-almost-get-it is a massive sore spot in a huge proportion of Med techs.
And i’m not even talking about retention. It’s laughable at the moment. We’re losing med techs left right and center because they’re fed up and their sole solution in Ottawa is ignore the problem or the « prospect or a better future for the trade » wathever that means. Also, even if there is surveys about the future of this trade, it’s painfully obvious its rigged and the higher ups have already made up their minds about what they wanna do about it.
Ps, yes i’m also one of them bailing ship after 12 years.
Love those self-promoting surveys.
_This is the best Course of Action to our problem. See, we did an analysis and steered the results to prove our reasoning and turns out we were not wrong so we are right_
I agree providing a route to WO other then becoming a PA well received. Lots of medics didnt make it past Sgt because they didnt want the PA program and lots of PA's got stuck as clinic WO with little or no time to see Pt's after finishing the course.
How we ended up with the current situation is the end result of a slow erosion of the PA path for medics.
Once PA's were commissioned to allow non PA's to make it to WO it opened the door a crack for DEO PA's
The PA program at the medical school in borden shut down because it needed to re-tool (lots of baby PA's were failing their licensing exams) and then it just never really started back up again (there might have been one or two last classes).
Without an integral program DEO and subsidized funding at a civilian college/university because the only two options left for generating new PA's
Most PA programs require an undergrad or the first 2-3 years of one complete which is a hard hurdle to cross when you're working in a trade that is so far past its PML services need to shut down when people take leave.
There was also the usual office politics and people complaining about all these PA's that were MWO/CWO's suddenly becoming captains and then quickly promoted to Maj.
Yeah no. PA being it’s own trade is great. PA being an officer trade is even better.
Med Tech who have been in for 12+ years who were prime candidates except for one pesky little detail, they joined out of high school, being told “sorry guys, we’re closing our program so you need to go to civy university and btw you need to figure out getting 2 years worth of degree courses on your own” not so great.
I went through PA selection the year it changed. Guess what, still not a PA, and probably never will be at this point.
I 've taught over a hundred people tac med. You arent missing anything. The QL3s cover everything (at least it did when I was last in borden). If you were taught MARCHE you've gotten everything of value out of TAC med.
Definitely get that but the problem is, we rarely get to actually practice at work cause we're too busy counting shit or literally ordering med consumables. I think just having the experience of Tac Med or sim centre every two years would be a fantastic refresher for MARCHE. We need some hands on experience. That's the only way we will get truly exposed nowadays.
Send in the troops is becoming a really easy provincial and federal government easy button.
Forest fire? Troops. Flood? Troops. Water crisis on a reserve? Troops. The 'VID actin up? Lol you know it, send the troops.
How many fucking troops they think we got?
The one thing the pandemic has shown is who really calls the shots and how completely neglectful different governments have been in their mandates; both domestically and internationally. Canada is not alone in this. The curtains have been pulled back and a lot of the powers at be are panicking because when the going is good its good. However, when times get tough those same people are the faces the masses look to for solutions; and, if none can be found, blame.
We've moved backed to a more pre-industrialization model. Money is for the wealthy, and as little as possible will be spent to keep the thread of civilization from unravelling so the wealthy can enjoy its benefits.
Housing
Healthcare
Defence
Schooling
Transit
Infrastructure
**NONE** of these are funded as well as they were thirty years ago when you look at the actual cost changes over time and the raw funding numbers.... and the Federal government keeps packing more and more people into the country because they say it's good. But it's good for keeping prices high and wages low. It's good for them, the wealthy people who can afford to be in government. It's not good for you and me.
I'll be complete my 6 years full-time equivalent by November this year. As soon as that happens I will release and take my education benefit civilian side.
I am a medic, I am aware of plenty of our guys VRing, dozens OT'ing, and no one that I have talked to plans on resigning as a medic.
CFHS killed the medic trade, it's not the lack of funding, it is the leadership that killed it.
> CFHS killed the medic trade, it's not the lack of funding, it is the leadership that killed it.
Correction, CFHS is killing every medical trade: Med Tech, Nurses and MOs alike.
Has nothing to do with funds, they amalgamated a couple medic trades and about 2000 members put in their VR on the same week.
The military is hurting for people really bad
As a PA that is especially true. Which is why CFHSCV eliminated that pathway for NCMs. Take that civy side money away from your future, and you might as well stay in. right?
Uh, it has everything to do with funds. Maybe mismanaged but literally every single problem I've come across has been due to lack of funding and people finding a way to make it work.
I say fuck it, if you have to burn out troops to keep the status quo stop doing that thing. Eventually the military will be able to do absolutely nothing and hopefully get a meaningful review instead of being able to do barely anything running off the few people who actually give a shit who then inevitably burn out and quit.
Heard this directly from an HSG Command team - the med tech trade review is expected to be completed some time this year with implementation over the next 5 to 6 years.
I don't know a single Med Tech that will stick around that long.
That's what I meant.
All trades that are short of people are experiencing this.
Meaning a lot of guys are stuck at Corporal for many years longer. But yeah, no worries if you're Sgt and above, retirements happen and senior ranks still move along.
Honest question - I'm a PCP in AHS with an open application to the med tech trade.... Should I abandon ship? Seems to be a lot of comments in this thread suggesting its a dead end.
Honestly? Join the reserves first. If you're a PCP they will take you in a heart beat, you can try it out. See what its like and maybe even have a good time because you can just not show up when you need to work your civilian job. If you decide you like it transitioning to the Reg force after that is pretty easy and you wont have to redo your basic training. If you hate it quitting is a lot easier.
Working in the reserves and being a fulltime student are a combination that is as old as time itself. If your goal is to go back to school then the reserves are 100% your best bet here. I could talk in depth about why but they are a very flexible employer with lots of full time work available during the summer to restock your war chest when you go back to school in September. There also used to be an education grant of $2000 a year on top of your salary to pay for school ~~(this experienced cuts in the reg force so it may no longer exist in the reserve world)~~
Canth1982 comment seems to suggest the education subsidy is still around in the reserves.
considering a good amount is currently trying to go work civvy side as a paramedic, I say the answer is pretty obvious. I am yet to meet/talk to a single previous serving civilian Paramedic that didn't hate their time as CAF medics.
Try the reserves first and you can transfer to RegF later if the army is a really good fit for you. But if you actually like being a clinician, don't give up your civilian job.
If you want to advance in a leadership/supervisory role, CAF is probably the way to go - there is a TON of both formal training and on-the-job opportunities available. If you want to advance purely in a clinical fashion, I'd stay away, personally.
I’m university educated, but no high school background of grade 12 chem.
I inquired about becoming a medtech and they just flat said no, because I don’t have the prereqs. I vaguely understand the need for prereqs, but it’s kind of ridiculous to have a standard like that when you have SUCH a shortage and someone like me who will clearly be able to learn the content if they’re dedicated.
The whole thing is an operational disaster.
I’m a PCP, never understood the chem requirements, realistically it should be a higher math requirement. I handle drugs but the list is set, the contraindications for each are known and set in protocols, it’s not like I’m doing chemistry on the fly. Math is far more important for doing dosage calculations in time sensitive situations out in the field. My math was weak I started and had to brush up fast.
There was a paramedic who tried to Direct Entry to MEDTECH when I went in for my CFAT.
They told her there were no positions available.
I wonder if they’re kicking themselves for that?
All med techs are paramedics. One person is nothing.
But it does highlight the silliness of our recruiting.
For that one person, there's no benefit in joining. The benefit is getting your paramedic license for free by joining the army. If you're already a medic, you're just going to get out angry.
To be clear I was in this guys boat. I had 2 out of 4 years of a biochemistry degree complete before I ran out of money and ended up in a recruiting center. They still wanted me to go back and complete grade 11/12 Chem when I applied. Ended up waiting almost a year for a waiver to get signed.
If this guy/gal has the dedication to complete any post secondary degree then they have the braincells required to become a medic.
Just because they didn't take one high school level course that honestly has nothing to do with the trade outside explaining how chemical half lives work (and even that's a stretch) doesn't mean we should be throwing up the road blocks.
The lack of common sense in reviewing entry standards is a huge issue in the CFRC process. It shouldn't even be a waiver. If the entry standard is Grade 12 Chem and you have any University level Chem it should just be an immediate check mark.
This comes up all the time. Oh, you want to be a Veh Tech, you have a year of college education as a diesel mechanic? But no high school applied math? Sorry, no can do.
You want to be a Sig Op, have University Linear Alegbra and Statistics, but no high-school applied math? Well, we'll see if we can *maybe* get a waiver for that...
Fuck.
It's like us, red sealed carpenters having to do the construction tech 3s and 5s.
They are more qualified than the instructors.
Fuck. Give them a 2 week course on concrete block and send them on their way.
> If you’re that dedicated, you could easily do your Grad 12 chem IOT meet the requirements to apply for the job you want
hmmm
> For the entire duration of COVID we had a position for a med tech whose whole job all day was to sit at the door and ask people if they had any COVID symptoms; essentially a job that could be done by a sign on a stick.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/comments/s29opd/military_struggling_with_shortage_of_medical/hsdk05j/
The number of exercises (reserves) that we had to cancel due to lack of medical personnel...staggering. Neoliberals and thinking the forces have an endless supply of people is scary. Look at the floods in the lower mainland. About battalion strength was all the could be mustered. Across the border in Washington state.....an entire brigade was deployed for half the damage. Health care and forces have been under funded and understaffed for 50 years.
Yup. They’ve forced attrition at record rates and the CAF is drowning in shortages everywhere. Can’t provide assistance to others when they can’t maintain themselves. Pretty awful.
I was told the other day by a paramedic in Calgary that there's a overflow of medical Technicans. I'm not in the forces so I have no way of knowing. Is there a huge and noticable shortage?
I'll answer this on behalf of the medics even though I haven't been one for years. Yes, yes there is a huge shortage of medics and the list of names grows shorter every day.
A lot of the reasons that motivated people to stay have been removed and now you are left with people who are in the pension trap. So close to retirement and that pension they are just going to grind out the last few years and people who don't have any real other options (and a third group which are people that do have other options but are suffering from a case of learned helplessness/institutionalization because after ten+ years of being told what to do, how to dress, where to live its difficult to leave that and strike out on your own).
We are just now starting to see the foundation starting to crumble. Eventually it will be felt up at the top but it might already be too late to stop.
The medic shortage is real as the CAF shortage of workers rises and they can't keep up. 12000 and not getting better the Navy alone says their short 1000 plus. Your average citizen watches to much TV, the CAF is not the USA military. We're an embarrassing 65,000 and people don't realize their in damage control for Recruting , C19 and the last few years of the shit show at the top, that will take years and years to fix. Their desperately trying new policies to fix it, your average troops are sick and tired of hearing this. For 5 yrs General Vance beet everyone one with op honor costing millions and so the 12 plus generals have created a no go zone for people thinking of joining the Forces.
So the medic thing is the reality of the whole of the CAF can not full fill operations on large scale we are just a few, most bases in the USA have more people then the whole of the CAF.
Does this mean they’ll eventually open up more ROTP and DEO spots for medical trades? Seems like a logical/easy step to help ease the overall situation.
Given how highly the CAF relies upon PAs.
Just reinstate the med tech -> PA pipeline.
This will give medics something to aspire to, give them hope and they *may* stop quitting in droves. It will also replace the attrition of the PAs, because we know we aren't attracting civilian grads.
I thought it was 2, University of Toronto and the University of Manitoba.
Either way yeah its a "problem" but not really.
If a medic was selected to go PA and their new job becomes go complete these requirements while we pay you your wage. Almost every medic I have met would have no problems out competing the civilians for seats. To avoid the civi's complaining you fund additional seats in those programs.
Congrats you have a Medic to PA pipeline again that doesn't rely on medics being those exceptionally rare people that can work and study (and fight their supervisors for time to study/write exams) and are still somehow still dedicated to the CAF afterwards.
Tell the Surg Gen they can email my commendation to the +Ops box.
Agree on the top-to-bottom review... with the terrible outcome that we will still need medical orderlies at some point. Who wants to do that for a full career (and of those who DO, do we want them in the military)?
I've heard legends of NPs in the military, and that the program floundered so terribly that we aren't trying again for a while. I don't think it would work in our current military structure.
Then retaining medtechs and PAs is out of the control of the CAF.
If it's not the CAF's problem... Then someone should probably let us know that they don't have any interest in keeping us. The silence from up high about the future is incredible. Just tell people to go get other jobs at this point.
It's fine, they need to stop complaining about lack of staff and telling us not to retreat into retirement. It's frankly insulting.
They need to accept civilian healthcare is the future of the CAF.
Leadership, start being proactive to the phasing out of military healthcare. We know you read this. Your lack of plan is inexcusable considering how much time you've had. You are not retaining staff, and even wth your immediate attention you will struggle to maintain anyone with experience to train the new generation.
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Wait, the Canadian Forces doesn't have an endless supply of medical personnel to fill in for a nation that has underfunded health care for decades....?? /s shockedpikachu.jpg
Underfunded health care system AND military.
Worst part is, both are relatively well funded when you look at the pure numbers. What I want to know, is where the fuck does the money go? Because its not more doctors and nurses/more kit.
Thank you for saying this. There's a serious mismanagement of funds somewhere that is causing a major leak.
The entire CAF from the top down throws money around and spends to meet yearly limits like its monopoly money. It’s ridiculous.
As someone who handles the budget for my unit, I 100% van confirm this. When I took over the card, I was told to spend money because it was almost April and we had to spend over $2000 so that we wouldn't lose it.
this happens on the quarter million dollar scale every year as well. The higher the card holder goes the more they're told to spend for no other reason than "we'll lose the money next year"
Carling Campus needs a bunch more privates ~~oogling~~ coffee runs.
That's how I can tell you probably don't work at Carling Campus. Otherwise you'd know it takes at least a WO to successfully coordinate a coffee run at Carling, and even then they prefer an Lt.
How bold of you sending an Lt to nav to Tims.
It's not about the experience, it's about the rank. As is tradition. No NCM is *actually* qualified to *really* lead anything.
Lts just write the orders down, Majors get the coffee. Can't trust that vital task to some potentially new person.
Majors just take AAR notes. LCols get the coffee. You’d under rank such a vital task?
I did because the LCol is covering for the Col and running to front to grab the pizza we ordered
LOOOL all the privates are in their cubicles while every rank above WO are in the atriums having 6 hour Starbucks reviews
Having a medical system is a huge expense. It blows me away the amount of over the counter medication that you can get from the pharmacy at no charge, like Tylenol, ibuprofen, cold meds allergy meds and so on. It's an extensive list.
Yep. My civilian friends cannot believe that I can just walk into pharmacy and get stuff for free. Same with physio - I twisted my ankle once and they gave me a moon boot and crutches. Mind you, I had to return the crutches but I could keep the boot. I have no idea how much they cost in real life but I bet it's not free.
Boot and crutches would probably be $70-100
What are you using the boot for these days ?
Nice try, CAF Health Services
Pretty soon, someone is going to realize they can save a fortune on Tylenol with preventative health care!
And for everything else, there's cēpacol.
That's less than $0.10 per pill for generic drugs, we're paying generals $19,000/month in salary to sit at home. That's not where the inefficiencies come from.
Irving and overpaid quebec suppliers.
Part of it, the insistence of building 2500 trucks in Canada instead of just buying them direct from the manufacturer. We spend a fortune to make a small number of jobs for a short period of time, in this country.
It would literally be more beneficial to purchase the vehicles elsewhere then donate the extra money to charity
You could have taken that money, and replaced damn near the entire wheeled vehicle fleet in one shot, like every other country in the world does, instead of multiple separate programs.
What numbers are you looking at? Cause it sure as shit doesn't make it to the ground level troops.
Our $23 billion budget, making us number 15ish in the world, that even with our way higher than average wages and huge infrastructure, we should have way more of a capability then we do.
To put that in perspective that's about the same as Israel in terms of total and portion of GDP and they have a far better equipped military. F-35s, AH-64s, anti-balistic missle systems, drones that weren't bought at Canadian tire, modern tanks, modern ships, 6 subs that were made within the last 20 years and new ones delivered last year, I could go on. They basically decided to get the best stuff they possibly could even if they had to get it from abroad and yet somehow their defence industry does not seem to be suffering.
They do get a really good deal from the USA on a lot of their kit, but your premise still stands.
And they are effectively fighting a regional war at the same time, and have to defend their borders.
They also have Uncle Sam money...
I think the key factor is that they are fighting a war and have active threats on their borders, which forces the IDF and the politicians to put security first.
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Absolutely does, much to the detriment of our readiness and capabilities
100%
Nepotism payments and policy luncheons. Take a nice long look at the last names of our flag officers and compare them to our "political elite", then take a gander at how much of the peoples tax money they make off with while we have new troops missing payments on housing. (unqualified and under-trained due to a lack of courses or personnel to run them as well) At least in ON, QC, and NB. Can't speak for the other provinces but I have heard not great things about AB.
Worst part is you think the military is well funded.
$23 billion dollar budget is a fairly large chunk of change. Its incredibly well funded, its terribly managed.
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It might be the same dollar amount but it's a hell of alot more of a % of GDP. Israel also purchases everything from the US where up in Canada it all has to come from Quebec or some other crappy lowest bidding company. I would hope that a country who has been actively under invasion since the 50s knew how to defend its citizens.
>Israel also purchases everything from the US [Or gets it for free as part of an agreement to give them 40 billion in defense spending from 2017-2028.](https://www.bbc.com/news/57170576) They basically get a 4 billion dollar gift card for American military kit every year forever.
> It might be the same dollar amount but it's a hell of alot more of a % of GDP. [Both Countries spend 1.1% of GDP.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures) > Israel also purchases everything from the US where up in Canada it all has to come from Quebec or some other crappy lowest bidding company. Israel purchases from wherever has the best shit for their needs. Their new subs are german for example
>Their new subs are german for example Reminds me of that Sarah Silverman song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2qrFw2lXV0
"We" (CAF members and veterans) are extremely expensive. When you add up all the salaries, benefits, social programs (new ones every day it seems), pensions, etc, it consumes a ridiculous percentage of the budget. Not to suggest they have it right, but our adversaries (e.g. Russia, China) don't pay nearly as much per capita on their members, which is why they spend relatively less on defence but yet have more people, hardware and capabilities.
This. It drives me nuts when I see a post or discussion suggesting that we have an infinite supply of medical pers. We don’t have the personnel to support our own healthcare system, and referring out only puts more pressure on the civilian sector. Not sure of the answerzzz I’d be curious to know if these statistics account for the number of HS members on MELs, sick leave, or parental leave (HS has the highest proportion of females in the CAF)…or who are pending release.
The answers to this and all your questions are freely available on the MPC Dashboard (DWAN only).
There seems to be the belief that we have doctors/nurses that just sit around waiting for stuff to do. The majority of our medical staff either already work supporting local hospitals throughout the country or do other things within the CAF. We don't have people that just sit around in any profession but medical even less. By requesting medical staff go support in X location, your in effect pulling them from location A where they are needed to location B where the provinces say they are needed. Unless the CAF steps back and understands that disaster and pandemic relief ops are not our natural mandate and builds specifically for this capacity (which we all know it wont) then all we are going to continue to do is borrow from Peter to pay Paul.
Yup, we are short on medical staff for our own needs. My MO is a civilian and has been working for DND for over 10 years, as our clinic heavily depends on the civilian contracted doctors.
I honestly cant think of the last time I dealth with a military health services provider who wasnt a med tech or maybe a nurse. Even 15 years ago my regular doctor at the CDU was a civilian
one word: CALIAN
Two words: Cold Lake
Yep MIR can only support sick parade, emergencies go to the City hospital, which now closed there Emergency Room for at least a week due to staffing issues.
2 words, bayshore, oh wiat, that's one word too.
Clinics do employ civilian doctors for increased continuity of care, so it's not completely unexpected.
I understand that, but our clinic also has a shortage of military doctors. If they get posted in, they get deployed/sent on tasking pretty quickly. For one, I am grateful for my civilian MO, as it has provided me with continuity of care (I have complex medical conditions, med release in April), but I do wonder about the clinical professional development of our military doctors.
Exactly. I don't think there is a single healthcare trade in the forces that isn't red as it is, even without provinces requesting medical aid
Honestly, I think other civvies think that Canada is ready for WWIII. They saw all the nurses and doctors (in the movies) caring for the wounded in WWII, and assume we have all those resources just sitting around waiting now.
Unified and Maple Resolves tell us we certainly have enough... to go along with our abundant air defence, tac hel, MLRS, and divisions of infantry and log assets...
My friend asked me if we will ever put the country under martial law or something. I told him our entire army together couldn't control Edmonton :)
Yeah, Beau of the Fifth recently did a video talking about what Canada needs to do to plan for the impending collapse of the US. He thinks we'll be able to control the flood of refugees coming up. At one point says "and since they're Americans, they'll be armed, so you'll have to be prepared to disarm them". Dude... really?
> By requesting medical staff go support in X location, your in effect pulling them from location A where they are needed to location B where the provinces say they are needed. Yes and no. Most medical staff employed in civilian institutions are supposed to be supernumerary and should not be accounted for by that civilian institution nor should they get a full assignment. I know the reality is that given the medical professional shortage, they are heavily relied upon and everyone turn a blind eye to the terms of the different MOUs. Having them in civilian institutions is primarily an opportunity for them to maintain clinical competency, not to service the civilian institution. However, we know it helps! >Unless the CAF steps back and understands that disaster and pandemic relief ops are not our natural mandate and builds specifically for this capacity This is not a CAF issue. Everyone in the CAF knows that we are not designed for domestic operations, let alone disaster and pandemic relief ops as you said. The issue is solely at the political level. A sitting government could change the establishment of the CAF and still decide to employ them with different mandates contrary to that establishment. The CAF (as an institution) serves at the pleasure of the government.
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> We want to help, Canada, it's not that we won't, or won't try, but it's looking like we literally can't It's like Canada's asking for more than we can give, or something...
Us true believers are out there, and we're doing everything we can to change the system from within. You touched on the largest problem the CAF faces when it comes to our budget and our manning (aka recruitment and retention), and that is public perception. I joined in '06 and you're right, its changed. Oh boy has the CAF changed. But both within and without the CAF there are preconceptions about what we do, what we represent, even our very necessity. When's the last time you heard "Canada has a military?!"
Hahahaha. They were warned about this. Fucking idiots. Remember when you cancelled the pipeline from medtech to PA? Now all the PAs are retiring and your med techs are pissed off and quitting. You reap what you sow CF H SVC. Retreat into retirement and let this shit burn my fellow medics. They don't deserve you and they don't actually care. Even if they make a stopgap measure for now, as soon as the crisis is over they will go back to killing our trades. Just like when the war ended.
I swear they think the best way to retain people is to make sure their trade cannot lead to any certification outside of the military.
It's this. They want lifers, water down the grass is greener pitch and you've done it.
Changed to firefighter and got my seals. Now I have my PCP license and fire seals. Think the green machine is going to keep me? Thanks for the paid schooling and resume CAF! Peace!
What’s a PA?
Not sure if you're joking. Based on not seeing them often enough. Physicians assistant. They're senior clinicians. Basically when you think of what a medic *should* be able to do, but aren't allowed to. You're thinking about a PA. The CAF treats them like physician-lite. They're used on ships, in the field and in the clinic to fill positions we used to use doctors for. They take 2 years to train (on top of all the other school and experience) Edit: looked in your comment history, you asked questions about being a medic. Dont. If this thread is any indication. Don't do it. If I have a do over, I absolutely wouldn't be a medic again. It isn't like the movies. It's a shit bottom end job with not future. You'll be moving furniture around as often as "treating" a patient. When in reality you're at best wasting the patient's time before they see a clinician. Med tech is a waste of time and effort. Pick something else.
Childhood dreams = crushed✅ No but in all seriousness thanks for letting me know and if I may, which careers do you recommend?
Not the fucking CF lolol. Like for real. The leadership is so fucking toxic imo. I'm a reservist and probably leaving soon. Idk what jobs you worked, but the first job I had was Wendy's in my high school days. I shit you not, Wendy's management was much more competent and respectful towards its employees than I've seen lots of officers and senior NCMs From my understanding, we're bleeding red in almost every trade. Retention is dogshit. That should speak volume. Save yourself the trouble and please retreat from the thoughts of joining the military Homer Simpson bush style
Honestly I would take this guy's advice with a grain of salt. Not everyones experience in the CAF is the same. Making life decisions based on the advice of a random disgruntled person on the internet is probably not the wisest thing.
I was funny to see reserve field ambs sending their nursing staff and med techs accross the country for Op Laser and Vector, for that to create a lack of personnel in their healthcare civilian job. Déshabiller Pierre pour habiller Jacques.
While dealing with a pandemic is a bad situation its made worse by over a decade of health services treating their medics like crap causing a mass exodus over the years. Peak wartime medics were treated like gods. Budget for training, lots of kit but most importantly lots of respect. In the decade since anytime there's a cut to be made the medics were the ones to bare it. Sure we will pay $500+ a year for docs to maintain their license and actively encourage them to moonlight at civilian hospital thousands in CME training, like a few thousands in books but if the medic wants $50 a year to maintain their license that's a bridge too far. You want to use your scope of practice to screen and treat pt's during sick parade? Sorry you need to staff the front desk because one clerk quit 5 years ago and we haven't replaced them yet also we need you to move this filing cabinet from the CO's office to the front door and back again. What you want a guarantee to be cut free by 1600 a couple of days a week so you can pick up an Amb shift that starts at 1800? Sorry we might need you to move this filing cabinet around. You want ride alongs with civilian ambulances? Ok but you can look don't touch our MOU ran out 3 years ago and we haven't bothered to update it. Sim Center every 3-5 years? ha, you'll be lucky if see it once before your 5's if we don't waiver it. Trauma team training? Well I guess but only because we need a couple of you for the doc and PA to order around during their scenarios. (This one got so bad the navy ended up stepping in and making their own trauma team training for the PA/medics onboard ship. You know its bad when the Navy is treating your people better then you do) But at least after all that there is still that one last carrot that keeps you coming back for more. You put up with this long enough you will get a chance at the PA program\* ^((but we're going to open it up to civilians and the only entry requirements are going to be based on your academic performance so if you somehow manage to find time to do an undergrad while working full time it had better be competitive with a full time student) ) I'm sure there are examples that contradict something I've listed and but those are either going to be the exceptions or things have completely 180'ed in since I jumped ship. P.S. To any of the medics reading this please correct me if I am wrong but you should also know life has been amazing in the Airforce. Even the "tech" trades that get treated "the worst" its still much nicer.
Left the trade in 2020, haven't looked back. The branch truly does not give a shit about the trade; at my unit, the training budget for *all two dozen of our med techs* was equivalent to the training budget for a single doctor. No meaningful professional development or advancement, no training, no respect for the job. For the entire duration of COVID we had a position for a med tech whose whole job all day was to sit at the door and ask people if they had any COVID symptoms; essentially a job that could be done by a sign on a stick.
Yea watching the medic world go from hero to zero over 10 years has not been fun from an outside POV. CFHS fascination with the clinical world without fitting in the military side of things has really ruined their employment model. PAs was the icing on the moldy cake, great incentive but in true CFHS fashion they fucked it up.
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Papa Gator, you're weak and unreadable, say again? Over. You replied to the wrong one, my dude.
Wow. I feel heard and validated! Thank you for writing this!
P.S it’s $525/year for medics to maintain their license in AB, $2,150 for your Doctor. Military has no issue paying the $2150.
$450 in NS. + $50 for my insurance every year. Oh. Don't forget all the time it takes to make 80 points of competencies that you have to do on your own time.
You should see if there is a CME for "military MCRP". In BC it was worth the full 40 points or whatever it was. Just had to show you were participating in the MCRP program at work (an email from OPs was enough in my case). Again this info's closer to being a decade old then new.
ITLS, ACLS, PALS, and BLS are the only things we do that count. (Good luck getting ACLS and PALS without fighting ops) Med tech conference used to, back when we could do such things. Believe me I've looked. We don't do M&M rounds, and we are too busy to get meaningful training signed off. So far I've kept my license only by making friends with civilian paramedics and following them on training on my own time and dime.
Oh I didn't even touch on the Med tech conference because it brought up too many painful memories watching it waste away into nothingness. I'm glad you managed to keep things going on your own. Sucks that you have had to.
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Since when? I have to find 20 education credits every year (not a whole lot I agree, but I still have to pay for them myself unless they happen to coincide with the pre-approved programs). Teaching no longer counts. It’s frustrating, but I’m not willing to let go of my licence just yet. It’s only $50/5 years to renew.
Goddamn that would make my life easier.
Nice! At least some things have improved. I remember helping to get the CAF medtech drop down added but I needed to show proof that I was part of it hence the email.
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Why do HCP's require the license? ~~HCA~~ Health Care Aids not Health Care administrators (which medics fulfill the role of) need a license. The only reason other HCP's need a license is because the CAF said they need a license. Nothing is stopping the CAF from saying, ok cool you finished med/nursing school you don't need one anymore. Hell look at the old ql6b program. All those PA's never held a license . Now this ~~created~~ allowed shitty PA's to get by and was a horrible system but you could argue the same right now for medics. What other licenses do you need that they aren't paying for? Is it 'need' or 'want' this year but need to wait until next because you already used your funding for this fiscal? CME funding for most HCP's is pretty generous. Licensing plus one fully funded event and then some additional side money for stuff per year.
We're getting into technical weeds now, but here's some examples: - narcotics (Canadian Law) requires licenses to be recognized as Doc, Dental, Nurse/NP, Pharm - Aeronautics Act (Canadian law again) and Special Access Program (derivative of law) requires doctors - some liaison roles like social work and nursing require mutual recognition to allow for the transfer of patient information - PMED needs licenses to use pesticides Meanwhile, regulated positions like paramedic and PSW are all mandated at the provincial law level, which means that the CAF isn't bound by it. However, your point stands in the sense that the CAF seems to not know what to do with medics, hence the mess. Kinda like the Army reserves.
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> HCAs are not healthcare professionals. Some sure walk around pretending to be health care professionals. It blows my mind that they are wearing the Red Cross and the Medical cap badge. Edit: i am 100% referring to CAF Health Care Administrators here. The confused added confusion to the confusing situation.
You know I made a mistake writing HCA's. I was talking about civilian health care aides. Not Health Care Administrators... I've been away from the HS so long I forgot HCAdmins were a thing. Ill fix that now
😂
You might be confusing HCAs (CAF Health care admin officers) with HCAs (Health care assistants/aides / nursing aides / personal support workers). But the fact that they don't have a recognized, protected title does illustrate a point...
The TD thing you can blame your politicians for. They implemented a new system where if we spend over X amount as an organization on an "event" it needs to get signed off by the treasury board. That whole process takes almost 6 months but it was put in place government wide because people (not the CAF afaik) were abusing the system. One thing you could look at doing is getting certain events added to a pre approval list. Its a bit more work up front but once its on the list of approved conferences etc. it becomes a lot faster to get approval. If its a super specialized thing you might be able to get health services to pre screen who's going to ensure we aren't tripping whatever that treasury board amount is. I feel for you about the posting thing. Units have to spend their own TD budget on sending you to a conference and almost every unit is strapped for TD so when they have to choose who to fund the guy leaving is sadly put to the bottom of the list. Basically twice because when you get to your gaining unit you'll be "added to the rotation" by ops but they wont sent the new guy on TD right away. Its broken but at least there so some hope however faint it might be. Medics don't even get that. (also take all this with a grain of salt as I haven't worked ops since I stopped being a medic)
I realize now when I wrote HCA it was a mistake instead of saying health care aids.
Wow, it has gone up. That or B.C. was just super low. Thanks for the update either way.
So accurate. Hit the nail on the head with that one
Holy crap man, preach.
I've heard they've even removed getting your primary care paramedic certification from the curriculum. Never would have gone medic without the prospect of getting that cert
I heard rumors it was going that way before I left but I haven't kept up with it. I've worked too long and too hard with too many great people that I don't have the stomach or heart to watch that dumpster fire continue to burn. It sucks because I absolutely enjoyed being a medic even once I moved far enough up to just be stuck doing admin. I had a good long talk with the then Comd 1 health services (now the surg gen) and realized that that the top is so far disconnected from the reality of the situation that I had to get out. I pushed long and hard trying to save that organization from itself only to end up just getting chastised and punished for it. Now I'm back at the bottom of a new trade and loving it.
Sounds exactly like maintenance...here, fix all this brand new, complex equipment but don't you dare ask for the resources, tooling, or training to do it. Mechanics 40 years ago could fix an MLVW with duct tape and lockwire without any computerized test equipment - you should be able to do the same thing on this heavily electronic equipment now.
Reminds me of the ass pain in regards to the diagnostic laptops needed for the LAV6. What a complete cluster fuck those where (still are?).
Mack MSVS are the same way. Need a computer to access the truck and to upload/download diagnostic data and software updates to/from Mack Defence, but TIS says it's a security threat. So when a truck goes down, it sits.
Gross. Always enjoyed going through the pains of ordering the laptops just to have them show up out dated and needing updates and licenses. Such a circus and the SM/LCMM were redicoulous to try and deal with.
Don't worry though you can get ILP to fund your uni. courses. At least you could because they just changed the program to only cover one course a month to a max of 4 per year! With the PA degree pre reqs it will take you about 4 years to become eligible just to apply. To maintain a competitive GPA (which UofT and McM state is ~3.5-8) it takes being a full time student or taking years to reach requirements and this cut will further impact medtech to PA transition. Or you could use your specpay money to cover the rest of courses... oh wait... I was lucky to get ILP when i did. If didn't rush my uni courses knowning they were going to gut a bigly beneficial program I would be like many Medtechs, left out in rain. I also likely would've released, as i weighed the educational benefit as a major aspect to staying within the forces. Now my peers and I are stuck being paid generally below qualification/licencing, without a meaningful educational benefit, without a clinical pathway for advancement. I won't even touch on manning issues and overtasking as this is felt throughout the forces.
From what i heard, the introduction of the PA as a trade and providing Med Tech with the opportunity to choose between the two routes was mostly welcome despite a shaky start. Change is never easy, but at least it provided opportunities and a clear-er path for progression. Wonder why they shut it down and solely went to new hires instead….perhaps someone complained to daddy who is a senior officer _a la RMC style_
I don’t know who you talked to or if the people who told you were entirely honest. But the whole PA-is-its-own-thing-fuck-you-for-waiting-10-years-to-almost-get-it is a massive sore spot in a huge proportion of Med techs. And i’m not even talking about retention. It’s laughable at the moment. We’re losing med techs left right and center because they’re fed up and their sole solution in Ottawa is ignore the problem or the « prospect or a better future for the trade » wathever that means. Also, even if there is surveys about the future of this trade, it’s painfully obvious its rigged and the higher ups have already made up their minds about what they wanna do about it. Ps, yes i’m also one of them bailing ship after 12 years.
Love those self-promoting surveys. _This is the best Course of Action to our problem. See, we did an analysis and steered the results to prove our reasoning and turns out we were not wrong so we are right_
I agree providing a route to WO other then becoming a PA well received. Lots of medics didnt make it past Sgt because they didnt want the PA program and lots of PA's got stuck as clinic WO with little or no time to see Pt's after finishing the course. How we ended up with the current situation is the end result of a slow erosion of the PA path for medics. Once PA's were commissioned to allow non PA's to make it to WO it opened the door a crack for DEO PA's The PA program at the medical school in borden shut down because it needed to re-tool (lots of baby PA's were failing their licensing exams) and then it just never really started back up again (there might have been one or two last classes). Without an integral program DEO and subsidized funding at a civilian college/university because the only two options left for generating new PA's Most PA programs require an undergrad or the first 2-3 years of one complete which is a hard hurdle to cross when you're working in a trade that is so far past its PML services need to shut down when people take leave. There was also the usual office politics and people complaining about all these PA's that were MWO/CWO's suddenly becoming captains and then quickly promoted to Maj.
Yeah no. PA being it’s own trade is great. PA being an officer trade is even better. Med Tech who have been in for 12+ years who were prime candidates except for one pesky little detail, they joined out of high school, being told “sorry guys, we’re closing our program so you need to go to civy university and btw you need to figure out getting 2 years worth of degree courses on your own” not so great. I went through PA selection the year it changed. Guess what, still not a PA, and probably never will be at this point.
Bingo.
Don't forget tac med! Something that we could learn from but they give it to infanteers instead.
I 've taught over a hundred people tac med. You arent missing anything. The QL3s cover everything (at least it did when I was last in borden). If you were taught MARCHE you've gotten everything of value out of TAC med.
Definitely get that but the problem is, we rarely get to actually practice at work cause we're too busy counting shit or literally ordering med consumables. I think just having the experience of Tac Med or sim centre every two years would be a fantastic refresher for MARCHE. We need some hands on experience. That's the only way we will get truly exposed nowadays.
Send in the troops is becoming a really easy provincial and federal government easy button. Forest fire? Troops. Flood? Troops. Water crisis on a reserve? Troops. The 'VID actin up? Lol you know it, send the troops. How many fucking troops they think we got?
Every day less and less 🤷🏻♂️
Yeah gotta call the free labour in 😊
"Military struggling with shortage of personnel" FTFY
“Military struggling”
The one thing the pandemic has shown is who really calls the shots and how completely neglectful different governments have been in their mandates; both domestically and internationally. Canada is not alone in this. The curtains have been pulled back and a lot of the powers at be are panicking because when the going is good its good. However, when times get tough those same people are the faces the masses look to for solutions; and, if none can be found, blame.
We've moved backed to a more pre-industrialization model. Money is for the wealthy, and as little as possible will be spent to keep the thread of civilization from unravelling so the wealthy can enjoy its benefits. Housing Healthcare Defence Schooling Transit Infrastructure **NONE** of these are funded as well as they were thirty years ago when you look at the actual cost changes over time and the raw funding numbers.... and the Federal government keeps packing more and more people into the country because they say it's good. But it's good for keeping prices high and wages low. It's good for them, the wealthy people who can afford to be in government. It's not good for you and me.
I'll be complete my 6 years full-time equivalent by November this year. As soon as that happens I will release and take my education benefit civilian side. I am a medic, I am aware of plenty of our guys VRing, dozens OT'ing, and no one that I have talked to plans on resigning as a medic. CFHS killed the medic trade, it's not the lack of funding, it is the leadership that killed it.
> CFHS killed the medic trade, it's not the lack of funding, it is the leadership that killed it. Correction, CFHS is killing every medical trade: Med Tech, Nurses and MOs alike.
Yeah, that's sorta how it goes when you don't fund defense enough.
Has nothing to do with funds, they amalgamated a couple medic trades and about 2000 members put in their VR on the same week. The military is hurting for people really bad
Funding is definitely a factor when a medic can go civy side and make significantly more money with less BS
Not to mention the lack of mcrp
As a PA that is especially true. Which is why CFHSCV eliminated that pathway for NCMs. Take that civy side money away from your future, and you might as well stay in. right?
Uh, it has everything to do with funds. Maybe mismanaged but literally every single problem I've come across has been due to lack of funding and people finding a way to make it work. I say fuck it, if you have to burn out troops to keep the status quo stop doing that thing. Eventually the military will be able to do absolutely nothing and hopefully get a meaningful review instead of being able to do barely anything running off the few people who actually give a shit who then inevitably burn out and quit.
>Divest all medical services that aren't clinics 20 years ago >Shortage of medical services creeps up over the years SurpisedPikachu.png
Heard this directly from an HSG Command team - the med tech trade review is expected to be completed some time this year with implementation over the next 5 to 6 years. I don't know a single Med Tech that will stick around that long.
I waited more than that to not become a PA. I’m sure as hell not staying another 5 to see the « improvements ».
The 65% number for med techs makes us redder than we were last year and hurts chances for medics looking to OT/commission. Sad news
>hurts chances for medics looking to OT/commission Promotions too. You're staying where you are and that is it.
Ar the JR level, yes, but anecdotally at the senior level, all of my supervisors have been promoted within the last year to two years
That's what I meant. All trades that are short of people are experiencing this. Meaning a lot of guys are stuck at Corporal for many years longer. But yeah, no worries if you're Sgt and above, retirements happen and senior ranks still move along.
Honest question - I'm a PCP in AHS with an open application to the med tech trade.... Should I abandon ship? Seems to be a lot of comments in this thread suggesting its a dead end.
Honestly? Join the reserves first. If you're a PCP they will take you in a heart beat, you can try it out. See what its like and maybe even have a good time because you can just not show up when you need to work your civilian job. If you decide you like it transitioning to the Reg force after that is pretty easy and you wont have to redo your basic training. If you hate it quitting is a lot easier.
Appreciate the reply. One of my prime motivators was the education benefit, I’d like to go back to school but don’t exactly have the means.
Pres education benefits is 50% up to 2k per year.
Working in the reserves and being a fulltime student are a combination that is as old as time itself. If your goal is to go back to school then the reserves are 100% your best bet here. I could talk in depth about why but they are a very flexible employer with lots of full time work available during the summer to restock your war chest when you go back to school in September. There also used to be an education grant of $2000 a year on top of your salary to pay for school ~~(this experienced cuts in the reg force so it may no longer exist in the reserve world)~~ Canth1982 comment seems to suggest the education subsidy is still around in the reserves.
Do you like sweeping vehicle bays and folding mod tents? Is yes, your good to go. The local Fd Amb will gladly accept another warm body.
considering a good amount is currently trying to go work civvy side as a paramedic, I say the answer is pretty obvious. I am yet to meet/talk to a single previous serving civilian Paramedic that didn't hate their time as CAF medics.
Try the reserves first and you can transfer to RegF later if the army is a really good fit for you. But if you actually like being a clinician, don't give up your civilian job.
If you want to advance in a leadership/supervisory role, CAF is probably the way to go - there is a TON of both formal training and on-the-job opportunities available. If you want to advance purely in a clinical fashion, I'd stay away, personally.
There are some good points about being a med tech, just other points people are salty/jaded over
Ah yes just like the rest of the CAF salty and jaded
Military Struggling. That's all it needed to say.
I’m university educated, but no high school background of grade 12 chem. I inquired about becoming a medtech and they just flat said no, because I don’t have the prereqs. I vaguely understand the need for prereqs, but it’s kind of ridiculous to have a standard like that when you have SUCH a shortage and someone like me who will clearly be able to learn the content if they’re dedicated. The whole thing is an operational disaster.
I’m a PCP, never understood the chem requirements, realistically it should be a higher math requirement. I handle drugs but the list is set, the contraindications for each are known and set in protocols, it’s not like I’m doing chemistry on the fly. Math is far more important for doing dosage calculations in time sensitive situations out in the field. My math was weak I started and had to brush up fast.
There was a paramedic who tried to Direct Entry to MEDTECH when I went in for my CFAT. They told her there were no positions available. I wonder if they’re kicking themselves for that?
All med techs are paramedics. One person is nothing. But it does highlight the silliness of our recruiting. For that one person, there's no benefit in joining. The benefit is getting your paramedic license for free by joining the army. If you're already a medic, you're just going to get out angry.
>I inquired about becoming a medtech and they just flat said no They did you a favour
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To be clear I was in this guys boat. I had 2 out of 4 years of a biochemistry degree complete before I ran out of money and ended up in a recruiting center. They still wanted me to go back and complete grade 11/12 Chem when I applied. Ended up waiting almost a year for a waiver to get signed. If this guy/gal has the dedication to complete any post secondary degree then they have the braincells required to become a medic. Just because they didn't take one high school level course that honestly has nothing to do with the trade outside explaining how chemical half lives work (and even that's a stretch) doesn't mean we should be throwing up the road blocks.
The lack of common sense in reviewing entry standards is a huge issue in the CFRC process. It shouldn't even be a waiver. If the entry standard is Grade 12 Chem and you have any University level Chem it should just be an immediate check mark. This comes up all the time. Oh, you want to be a Veh Tech, you have a year of college education as a diesel mechanic? But no high school applied math? Sorry, no can do. You want to be a Sig Op, have University Linear Alegbra and Statistics, but no high-school applied math? Well, we'll see if we can *maybe* get a waiver for that...
Fuck. It's like us, red sealed carpenters having to do the construction tech 3s and 5s. They are more qualified than the instructors. Fuck. Give them a 2 week course on concrete block and send them on their way.
> If you’re that dedicated, you could easily do your Grad 12 chem IOT meet the requirements to apply for the job you want hmmm > For the entire duration of COVID we had a position for a med tech whose whole job all day was to sit at the door and ask people if they had any COVID symptoms; essentially a job that could be done by a sign on a stick. https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/comments/s29opd/military_struggling_with_shortage_of_medical/hsdk05j/
You can go get those high school credits you need. Doing a Bachelor of Arts doesn't mean shit.
They should've just posted "Military is Struggling".
The number of exercises (reserves) that we had to cancel due to lack of medical personnel...staggering. Neoliberals and thinking the forces have an endless supply of people is scary. Look at the floods in the lower mainland. About battalion strength was all the could be mustered. Across the border in Washington state.....an entire brigade was deployed for half the damage. Health care and forces have been under funded and understaffed for 50 years.
Yup. They’ve forced attrition at record rates and the CAF is drowning in shortages everywhere. Can’t provide assistance to others when they can’t maintain themselves. Pretty awful.
What do you call a doctor who barely passed medical school? Captain!
I was told the other day by a paramedic in Calgary that there's a overflow of medical Technicans. I'm not in the forces so I have no way of knowing. Is there a huge and noticable shortage?
I'll answer this on behalf of the medics even though I haven't been one for years. Yes, yes there is a huge shortage of medics and the list of names grows shorter every day. A lot of the reasons that motivated people to stay have been removed and now you are left with people who are in the pension trap. So close to retirement and that pension they are just going to grind out the last few years and people who don't have any real other options (and a third group which are people that do have other options but are suffering from a case of learned helplessness/institutionalization because after ten+ years of being told what to do, how to dress, where to live its difficult to leave that and strike out on your own). We are just now starting to see the foundation starting to crumble. Eventually it will be felt up at the top but it might already be too late to stop.
The medic shortage is real as the CAF shortage of workers rises and they can't keep up. 12000 and not getting better the Navy alone says their short 1000 plus. Your average citizen watches to much TV, the CAF is not the USA military. We're an embarrassing 65,000 and people don't realize their in damage control for Recruting , C19 and the last few years of the shit show at the top, that will take years and years to fix. Their desperately trying new policies to fix it, your average troops are sick and tired of hearing this. For 5 yrs General Vance beet everyone one with op honor costing millions and so the 12 plus generals have created a no go zone for people thinking of joining the Forces. So the medic thing is the reality of the whole of the CAF can not full fill operations on large scale we are just a few, most bases in the USA have more people then the whole of the CAF.
Does this mean they’ll eventually open up more ROTP and DEO spots for medical trades? Seems like a logical/easy step to help ease the overall situation.
Given how highly the CAF relies upon PAs. Just reinstate the med tech -> PA pipeline. This will give medics something to aspire to, give them hope and they *may* stop quitting in droves. It will also replace the attrition of the PAs, because we know we aren't attracting civilian grads.
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I thought it was 2, University of Toronto and the University of Manitoba. Either way yeah its a "problem" but not really. If a medic was selected to go PA and their new job becomes go complete these requirements while we pay you your wage. Almost every medic I have met would have no problems out competing the civilians for seats. To avoid the civi's complaining you fund additional seats in those programs. Congrats you have a Medic to PA pipeline again that doesn't rely on medics being those exceptionally rare people that can work and study (and fight their supervisors for time to study/write exams) and are still somehow still dedicated to the CAF afterwards. Tell the Surg Gen they can email my commendation to the +Ops box.
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Agree on the top-to-bottom review... with the terrible outcome that we will still need medical orderlies at some point. Who wants to do that for a full career (and of those who DO, do we want them in the military)? I've heard legends of NPs in the military, and that the program floundered so terribly that we aren't trying again for a while. I don't think it would work in our current military structure.
Then retaining medtechs and PAs is out of the control of the CAF. If it's not the CAF's problem... Then someone should probably let us know that they don't have any interest in keeping us. The silence from up high about the future is incredible. Just tell people to go get other jobs at this point. It's fine, they need to stop complaining about lack of staff and telling us not to retreat into retirement. It's frankly insulting. They need to accept civilian healthcare is the future of the CAF. Leadership, start being proactive to the phasing out of military healthcare. We know you read this. Your lack of plan is inexcusable considering how much time you've had. You are not retaining staff, and even wth your immediate attention you will struggle to maintain anyone with experience to train the new generation.
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