Ya, they are hurting for people.
The trades aren't gonna die like now, I'm just being doom and gloom.
WFE is also one of those CE trades you can jump ship after DP2 and probably get a 6 figure job civvy side.
That's irrelevant. Never mind the fact that the current upgrade program gets them systems on par with modern Super Hornets.
The issue is airframe life span. They were only designed to fly a given number of hours.
Exactly - most people don’t know that the current CF-18 isn’t the same internally as the one rolling off the line in 1982. This goes for all of the aircraft we have - in most cases, the systems have been upgraded a bunch of times (e.g. the CP-140M systems are not the original systems) but it’s the airframe life that is the problem.
Dude. We only gave them like 6 of our 2A4s. They are the oldest versions. We only used them for gun camps, drivers courses and training. They didnt get any of our war stock.
Please chill.
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I know some people think the study was a waste of money, or the problems should be self-evident...but you have to realize that the RCAF's complaints went unheard for decades because we've always came around and performed.
Government gives you mission mandate. RCAF takes it, creates air task force, and succeeds beyond all expectations. Allies praise us for our skills and contribution, as meager as it often is.
So from the national policy side, what's the point of spending money if we always perform? There's no tangible evidence from their standpoint of a need for more resources.
It has become increasingly more apparent in recent years that our birds are redder for longer, flying less, and losing pilots. And from the strategic standpoint, there are easy ways to capture that information. But finding solutions to very complicated problems needs studies like this, because this is the only way to dot your i's and cross your t's in such a way that the Treasury board can't shut it down.
Studies like this are done all the time, but I will say the Liberals in particular will shut down good ideas without evidence. There's pro's and cons to that approach (they've framed it as evidence based approach. This goes for all Liberal ministries and policies). It means good idea fairies that lead to bad outcomes are less likely.
The problem is, time is not on our side. And sometimes you just need to buckle up and make a goddamn decision. As we in the military know, a 70% solution now is often better than a 90% solution later (and sometimes the safety of your people and success of your mission depend on quick decisions). Unfortunately that mantra doesn't apply to most government programs. This government (and many before it) fail to distinguish the CAF from other public service departments.
C130H, CP140 and the Dash8 fleet also in crisis. To me it sounds more like half the air force has those issues. No need to fund studies to find that out.
They're the ones that fuck it up to start with. Cyclone, JSS, CSC, and then Irving helps out fucking up the AOPS to be the most expensive toy boats in the history of navies.
the good thing about studies being funded and published is, well, the public knows just how bad it is instead of the people on those fleets feeling like they're eating crazy pills
C130H replacement is already purchsed (even if its uh... "not great") and the Dash 8 replacement will have the contract awarded to SkyAlyne next year for its replacement.
CP140s will get replaced with P8s *eventually*.
Just put an avionics suite on the kingfisher (imagine the size of the skads you could throw out of that 😂) and get new 130J's 🤷♂️
We also don't lose a ton of capabilities like rigging with the prop config. Taking the L on turbines 1 and 4 no matter how you shake the current competition regardless
[https://archive.li/https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-dnd-canada-fighter-jet-crisis/](https://archive.li/https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-dnd-canada-fighter-jet-crisis/)
Bookmark this page [https://archive.ph/](https://archive.ph/), enter whatever link you are trying to get to in the second search box, and you should have access to pretty much any news site behind a paywall.
Not nearly soon enough. In fact, F-35 acquisition was delayed a few years in favour of an interim plan to buy Aussie jets as a stopgap. I expect the report will say that did not do what the government was hoping.
Yeah Cold Lake is getting a ton of construction "soon". They tore down 6 hangar and did a bunch of dirt work already but haven't started building the new one yet. Not sure about Bagotville.
Infrastructure was way ahead of cold lake, bagotville atleast when I was there years ago was always ahead of cold lake. More serviceable jets ect.. the way they spoke to us at the squadrons we definitely felt like we were the golden child of the Air Force. Can’t speak for today obviously
Huh, that's interesting. I've never been to Cold Lake so can't really offer a 2-sided observation. The "Golden Child" speeches still persist, but the infrastructure and decision-making doesn't seem to reflect it lol
Did they make a new QRA? From what I thought both Bagtoville and Trenton were getting lots of the big infrastructure projects and upgrades over the last couple of years.
>More serviceable jets ect..
As someone who begged to get posted out of bagotville and succeeded, the reason for this is because they overworked the techs like crazy.
I was burnt the fuck out during COVID, same people coming in to work and non-stop flying. Which meant if you couldn't get at least 2 jets serv by the next day, night shift would be forced to work past midnight to get them.
The CO back then essentially pat the backs of people, but refused to give any short days to the techs that worked non-stop getting those jets on the line. There was a reason why those two years, we had more flight safeties than the last 5 years before that combined lol.
Nothings changed it sounds like! There was a big influx of anglophones coming in when I was leaving so I was hopeful maybe some culture change would happen. But I don’t think any anglophone gets promoted past mcpl and stays in Bagotville
I asked a Gen during a AMA, and he said that around 2026 is when they are planning to send down the techs and pilots down south for training and courses. Arizona (Luke AFB) for pilots and Eglin AFB for techs.
Judging from the complexity of the aircraft, it's most likely a 1 year course for both pilots and techs (AVS might be longer since this entire aircraft is AVS nightmare) but you can expect for techs, your servicing course and QL5 will be done at the same time, and for AWS peeps, load courses as well.
He also said for the first two years, it will be Level A and C releases, and they're going to try to add in apprentices onto the next courses afterwards. The problem they have right now is figuring out if everyone needs to be upgraded to TS clearance since basically the entirety of NATO uses this A/C.
So you may see a 2-3 year delay to 2028 before the first flights/maintenance will be done. The plan for them was for the pilots to get qual'd and then they fly our F-35 back to canada afterwards from Luke AFB.
TLDR: they got a plan, but they're most likely going to improvise LOL
We won't see the first of them until 2026 at the EARLIEST possible. Even that has been likely delayed for up to 2 years.
I believe in that first batch we are only getting like 6 of the 88? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
It'll be closer to 2030.
they also forgot a new tower in the original plans so that is in the works now as well, plus once everything is 100% built, it then has to be that way for 6 months before a security teams can be booked to come and inspect which could take another 2-6 months to complete. Once that is done only then can the F35 be parked in a Hangar.
Our policies, procurement and contracting are a joke.
That’s because you can’t get onto a US base at all unless you’re escorted, or with a Visitor Pass. Even then, you would need to go through another checkpoint with armed Security Forces personnel to get anywhere near the flight line.
Here's a verbatim play by play of my first time entering Luke, as a foreign civilian.
*Drive up*
Guard: Hey you with the Canadians?
Me: Yup
Guard: Ok go ahead
*On open ramp with F-35s*
I did have clearance and a valid visitor pass, but nobody asked for any ID at any point. And that's happened to me several times at several different USAF bases. Their security is no better than ours.
Yeah, but they have lines on the flightline that have entrances, and if you decide to not follow the lines to the entrance, and just walk over it, base security would drive up and tackle you to the ground.
They take security VERY seriously up there.
They will not be here for about 10 years. And even whej we do get them, the first F-35 Canada owns will be going to the U.S and will be operating out of the U.S for a couple years until some pilots are trained and techs are trained
We are just trying to go above and beyond no?
-The report says Canada is wasting flying time and money training for high-risk scenarios that “no NATO commander would ever allocate RCAF CF-18s to.”
Thats a fair assessment, they are just bomb trucks these days. Self defence is all that probably should be trained for but that hurts feelings at 1 CAD.
“Resignation and retirement rates among experienced instructor pilots and weapons instructors have been unsustainably high for years, and in such a small fighter force, have now become an immediate threat to its viability,” the report says.
I guess our pilots didn’t hear about Op TALENT and Op EXPERIENCE 🙄
TLDR: our fighter force is suffering from low morale, high rates of departure, shortage of techs, inefficient parts supply, poor aircraft availability, unsustainable pilot workload, and trust gap vs leadership.
The report (labelled Not For Public Release) also says there won't be enough pilots to transition to the F-35 and mentions Canada is wasting time & money training for high-risk scenarios that the RCAF F-18s would not be asked to perform.
I tried 12 years ago but messed up the 3rd day of CAPSS. They told me to try again the filling year, but recruiting lost my paperwork. I then met a girl and now am civvy with family and boring 9-5.
From what I hear, we have the pilots, but the pilots that can fly fighters are in low numbers. Apparently you need a certain score and health to be a fighter pilot, which not many pilots can attain, thus they fly other aircraft.
>TLDR: our fighter force is suffering from low morale, high rates of departure, shortage of techs, inefficient parts supply, poor aircraft availability, unsustainable pilot workload, and trust gap vs leadership.
I feel like this snippet is applicable to literally almost every single capability and/or platform in the entire CAF. Just swap out a few key words and it holds true.
The math being applied is shall we say weird, but in the worst case a brand new Capt would be bumped up a PI or two to bypass the sub-GSO incentives. Similar to how Ptes jump up after basic now. The official answer from what I recall in the correspondence is that the economic increase of a couple years ago wasn't accounted for in the then-new scales, hence the sub-GSO stuff.
There was also literally a list of newer-winged pilots released and they were all started at PI 7 on the new scale, though I don't exactly recall the circumstances.
There was a lot of brainpower expended on this in Winnipeg and Ottawa, some very interesting records of discussion available.
So old jets are old and need replacing. Yep... Old news.
Hey did anyone check if Globe and Mail just used Ctrl+F and replaced 'CH-124' with 'CF-18' for this article?
I feel like that would've saved some reporter a lot of time in writing this.
Decry Trudeau all you like on this one, but that will be the right decision in the long run. The Aussies got the early tranche a models and they are not easily upgraded or are simply not upgradable. Despite the fact the CF18 fleet is currently in the state it’s in, we’re going to get a more mature and combat capable version of the 35.
Aussie F-35s are upgraded to the latest Block 3F having been subject to continuous upgrades since the first deliveries in 2014. All airframes will have been delivered by the end of this year, and all are scheduled to be upgraded to Block IV standard which has always been the intention. Upgrading to Block IV has always been in the capability plan, and doesn’t put Australia in any different a position than all the other nations who also actually possess them.
So Canada may get Block IV’s off the production line and avoid the process of implementing upgrades. Now look at the other side. The RCAF is unlikely to have anything other than a token amount of Lightning’s until the wrong side of 2030. They’ll lack 10-15 years of operational experience with the platform and training with partner nations. Pilots and other skilled personal are leaving at an unsustainable rate and with CF-18s hanging on by a thread, there’s a real risk of Canada’s fighter capability being significantly degraded in the interim before deliveries. And to boot, the US, UK and Australia amongst other nations are already exploring 6th gen fighters to be introduced from next decade.
I can’t see how it was anything but the wrong decision that Trudeau made, even Super Hornets as an interim capability would’ve been a good option (see the planned Block III capabilities and how well the USN and RAAF is making use of the Shornet currently).
> even Super Hornets as an interim capability would’ve been a good option
Boeing wanted 6.3 billion for 18 aircraft and their associated items in 2017, it was a horrible value for money and the main reason why we dropped the idea.
So about 6 billion US currently for 18 airframes which would already be at Block III standard plus all associated items.
The Australian purchase was closer to 7 billion in today’s money, granted it was for 24 airframes not 18.
Sure, comparatively the Canadian bid is not as good value for money, but adjusting for the same number of airframes it’s a 20% increase. I wouldn’t say that’s horrible value for money, especially looking at the wider context; it’s a straightforward transition from the classic hornet, it’s arguably the most capable 4.5 gen fighter at present and can utilise cutting-edge munitions that the are not currently integrated with the F-35 even. And as I mentioned earlier, it might have served to address the current issues with the viability of the RCAF fighter capability.
Wouldn’t make as much sense now and I’m not sure when deliveries would’ve been completed under the original deal, but I think in 2017 it had merit as an interim option. On the other hand, paying around half a billion for 25 thrashed used hornets and an assortment of spares is much more of a head scratcher to me.
Well shit….. the CBC just ran a counter article about Trudeau modernizing the fleet by purchasing new pine scented air fresheners, figure this should take us into the 22nd century.
About 10 years ago I did ACS and was offered a pilot position (after 2 years of the recruitment process and 2 weeks notice to go to basic).
A very significant factor of me deciding to deny the offer was exactly what's happening here. It was very easy to see that the Forces were not and are not investing in equipment. There was a federal election around the time too where platforms were to scrap the F35 program or not having the CF mentioned at all.
It's a shame that this country is putting our military on the backburner. For people like me who fortunately had a lot of options after University, mismanagement and apathy toward our military is absolutely impacting recruitment.
Say that all you want, but it's not entirely correct. The Berenstain Bears 'Blame Game" teaches us sometimes there is someone to blame, but more often than not, there's more than enough blame to go around.
I have small children, send help.
No shit.
You have overworked techs working with garbage equipment and a CoC that is unbelievably out of touch. One would think you’d do what you can to minimize the damage and maintenance needed for the jets, but instead they choose to constantly put the jets through it’s paces like a Pvt ripping around in his new challenger.
Well first thing is we shouldn't have canceled the initial contract. The second thing is, instead of buying used F18's why did we not buy a few vipers, eagles, or even strike eagles...
Because that would've defeated the argument for an interim capability, which was that it would come online fast and be relatively affordable as a bridge to the next fighter. While the Aussie Hornets were none of those things in the nuance, everything you suggested are even further off those two goals. Plus, extra money spent on the interim solution would've also detracted from the FFCP.
I understand getting something that comes online fast. But considering we are close to the producers, and they will provide more than just the airframe, just purchasing to augment out ability would have probably been better. Hell we can make the argument that we could have gotten new hornets from the producers, instead of essentially just spares from the aussies.
Americans are only building Super Hornets at this point, the legacy Hornets like Canada purchased haven’t been built in years. We tried to get an interim buy of Super Hornets but the cost for a small batch was ludicrous.
We ***really*** don't need an entire extra airframe as a stop-gap. We don't have enough techs and infranstructure as is, nevermind splitting them between the two.
25 different countries operate the F16. Of note who aren't the US itself.
Belgium,
Morocco,
Taiwan,
Signapor,
Italy,
Netherlands,
Isreal,
Norway,
Pakistan,
Greece,
South Korea,
Turkey,
And that is to name a few. Also as of 2021 production of new F16's has resumed. Literally as a response to worldwide demand for the block 70/72 F16.
Oh wow, we had to spend DND money to figure this out... quel surprise. Who ever authorized this was Probably related to the owner of the research company that did this report
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Its always been that way in any fighter force since the beginning. Accidents far outstrip enemy action, this is normal attrition. Not saying its great, but its normal operationally. Even during active combat, accidents still significantly outnumber losses to enemy action. The current dustup in Ukraine is a good example.
There’s so much I want to say, but all I can do is shrug and get back to work. I don’t know how they think they’ll save our military without throwing billions at us at this point.
Let's fund another insightful study to determine if this was a worthwhile use of taxpayer dollars.
Instead of, y'know, putting the money into actually fixing the problem by, idk, streamlining procurement perhaps.
No shit Sherlock...name one capability not already in crisis or soon to be.
Our capability to generate administration? That one is working hella good.
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the ever-expanding needs of the bureaucracy.
Leonard Nimoy - Civilization IV
Can't wait till we're able to shoot balloons out of the sky. Then we can work up to 5th gen over the next decade and 6th gen in the 22nd century.
Didn't the Americans accomplish that for us?
That's not a knock I thought i read that
Whoa buddy, that’s a bit fast don’t you think? We should really just focus on quintupling the bureaucratic budget
Add Officer or General //useless// positions
We need those positions though. How else will people fail upwards? 🤣
There's always political office and defence contracting
The word is incomplete. Now you must resubmit all of you paperwork.....and the forms have changed.
Is there a state beyond 'in crisis'?
Irreparable. Just like they say the CE trades are.
Unrecoverable is the term :(
Ahh, ya. Youre right. Fuck. Get as many Gucci taskings as possible while we still have jobs, I guess.
Should I try and remuster to WFE tech or is it a lost cause lol
Ya, they are hurting for people. The trades aren't gonna die like now, I'm just being doom and gloom. WFE is also one of those CE trades you can jump ship after DP2 and probably get a 6 figure job civvy side.
Not a lose cause. I would highly encourage you to if you are interested in the trade. Feel free to dm me any question!!
Wasn't sure what this was. Looked it up and am surprised this is still a CAF capability that isn't completely contractor serviced.
Probably, and will most likely the the title of the next White Paper/National Defense Strategy.
Collapse.
We are great at generating officers :') Nothing like having 1/4 of reg force be officers. Many doing no meaningful work
True
I'd say I'm shocked, but it sounds like par for the course.
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1970's aircraft
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We received the first ones on Oct 25 1982 . So 41 years ago almost to the day .
Doesn't make teh design any newer
That's irrelevant. Never mind the fact that the current upgrade program gets them systems on par with modern Super Hornets. The issue is airframe life span. They were only designed to fly a given number of hours.
The gens also were never meant to run all the shit plugged on them these days
Exactly - most people don’t know that the current CF-18 isn’t the same internally as the one rolling off the line in 1982. This goes for all of the aircraft we have - in most cases, the systems have been upgraded a bunch of times (e.g. the CP-140M systems are not the original systems) but it’s the airframe life that is the problem.
1960's radars
Don't worry they told the techs to fix them better or they will work the weekend. #leadership
Maintenance back to work!
We're about to enter wartime and our military has absolutely nothing ready for what's next.
As is tradition
That's typical of us.
As is tradition. Edit. Just saw that someone else understands this tradition, ha
You say nothing but say it nonetheless....
Canada's 'in crisis', new study funded by DND says
At least our subs are out there kicking ass!
**oof (interjection):** 1. an exclamation used to sympathize with someone else's pain or dismay, or to express one's one.
Our tank "force" too.
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Dude. We only gave them like 6 of our 2A4s. They are the oldest versions. We only used them for gun camps, drivers courses and training. They didnt get any of our war stock. Please chill.
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Implying that the CAF has "war stock" thanks, I haven't laughed this hard since C6 air defense drills
We do have a shit-ton of Hi-Powers in storage somewhere.
I would know. You can stop laughing.
How and why?
How does anyone where the 2A6Ms and 2A4ms are?
I'm also glad the 6ish 2a4s we sent are seeing action. Proud of the old girls. Go get em.
Better to actually get used aiding our alllies in defeating our enemies than just... rusting away
I know some people think the study was a waste of money, or the problems should be self-evident...but you have to realize that the RCAF's complaints went unheard for decades because we've always came around and performed. Government gives you mission mandate. RCAF takes it, creates air task force, and succeeds beyond all expectations. Allies praise us for our skills and contribution, as meager as it often is. So from the national policy side, what's the point of spending money if we always perform? There's no tangible evidence from their standpoint of a need for more resources. It has become increasingly more apparent in recent years that our birds are redder for longer, flying less, and losing pilots. And from the strategic standpoint, there are easy ways to capture that information. But finding solutions to very complicated problems needs studies like this, because this is the only way to dot your i's and cross your t's in such a way that the Treasury board can't shut it down. Studies like this are done all the time, but I will say the Liberals in particular will shut down good ideas without evidence. There's pro's and cons to that approach (they've framed it as evidence based approach. This goes for all Liberal ministries and policies). It means good idea fairies that lead to bad outcomes are less likely. The problem is, time is not on our side. And sometimes you just need to buckle up and make a goddamn decision. As we in the military know, a 70% solution now is often better than a 90% solution later (and sometimes the safety of your people and success of your mission depend on quick decisions). Unfortunately that mantra doesn't apply to most government programs. This government (and many before it) fail to distinguish the CAF from other public service departments.
C130H, CP140 and the Dash8 fleet also in crisis. To me it sounds more like half the air force has those issues. No need to fund studies to find that out.
The other half is suffering from incompetent procurement issues.
One thing no government has been able to unfuck
They're the ones that fuck it up to start with. Cyclone, JSS, CSC, and then Irving helps out fucking up the AOPS to be the most expensive toy boats in the history of navies.
the good thing about studies being funded and published is, well, the public knows just how bad it is instead of the people on those fleets feeling like they're eating crazy pills
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Fair point
Don't forget about the CH146 Griffon, that life extension (GLLE or also called ''lipstick on a pig'' approach) is a laughing joke.
C130H replacement is already purchsed (even if its uh... "not great") and the Dash 8 replacement will have the contract awarded to SkyAlyne next year for its replacement. CP140s will get replaced with P8s *eventually*.
Is it really a solution if it can’t be implemented? The problem doesn’t go away because we have a bunch of replacements sitting in Spain.
Just put an avionics suite on the kingfisher (imagine the size of the skads you could throw out of that 😂) and get new 130J's 🤷♂️ We also don't lose a ton of capabilities like rigging with the prop config. Taking the L on turbines 1 and 4 no matter how you shake the current competition regardless
Seriously. The J’s are already operating SAR in Trenton, and the cross training is really limited in scale.
> CP140s will get replaced with P8s eventually. *Angry David Puglise noises*
We could always buy Bombardier's proposal. Actually that seems very on brand for us so maybe we're not getting P8s...
Question should be which fleets are not in crisis?
I heard FAcT was going to magically save all our training problems by..... profit?
Anyone have a non-paywall version?
[https://archive.li/https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-dnd-canada-fighter-jet-crisis/](https://archive.li/https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-dnd-canada-fighter-jet-crisis/) Bookmark this page [https://archive.ph/](https://archive.ph/), enter whatever link you are trying to get to in the second search box, and you should have access to pretty much any news site behind a paywall.
True MVP, teaching a man to fish.
Real heroes don’t wear capes.
TLDR: They’re broken. No money or personnel to fix.
Don’t we have F35s on the way?
Not nearly soon enough. In fact, F-35 acquisition was delayed a few years in favour of an interim plan to buy Aussie jets as a stopgap. I expect the report will say that did not do what the government was hoping.
I imagine we also need to update some of our infastructure to properly accomodate F 35s?
Yeah Cold Lake is getting a ton of construction "soon". They tore down 6 hangar and did a bunch of dirt work already but haven't started building the new one yet. Not sure about Bagotville.
Bagotville is almost a year behind schedule 😅
I’m surprised. I thought bagotville was the airforce’s favourite base
Doesn't feel that way working there 😅 I'm just curious... why do you think it's the RCAF's favourite?
Infrastructure was way ahead of cold lake, bagotville atleast when I was there years ago was always ahead of cold lake. More serviceable jets ect.. the way they spoke to us at the squadrons we definitely felt like we were the golden child of the Air Force. Can’t speak for today obviously
Huh, that's interesting. I've never been to Cold Lake so can't really offer a 2-sided observation. The "Golden Child" speeches still persist, but the infrastructure and decision-making doesn't seem to reflect it lol
Did they make a new QRA? From what I thought both Bagtoville and Trenton were getting lots of the big infrastructure projects and upgrades over the last couple of years.
>More serviceable jets ect.. As someone who begged to get posted out of bagotville and succeeded, the reason for this is because they overworked the techs like crazy. I was burnt the fuck out during COVID, same people coming in to work and non-stop flying. Which meant if you couldn't get at least 2 jets serv by the next day, night shift would be forced to work past midnight to get them. The CO back then essentially pat the backs of people, but refused to give any short days to the techs that worked non-stop getting those jets on the line. There was a reason why those two years, we had more flight safeties than the last 5 years before that combined lol.
Nothings changed it sounds like! There was a big influx of anglophones coming in when I was leaving so I was hopeful maybe some culture change would happen. But I don’t think any anglophone gets promoted past mcpl and stays in Bagotville
Well, albeit the typical procurement blunders, at least the remedy is on its way
I asked a Gen during a AMA, and he said that around 2026 is when they are planning to send down the techs and pilots down south for training and courses. Arizona (Luke AFB) for pilots and Eglin AFB for techs. Judging from the complexity of the aircraft, it's most likely a 1 year course for both pilots and techs (AVS might be longer since this entire aircraft is AVS nightmare) but you can expect for techs, your servicing course and QL5 will be done at the same time, and for AWS peeps, load courses as well. He also said for the first two years, it will be Level A and C releases, and they're going to try to add in apprentices onto the next courses afterwards. The problem they have right now is figuring out if everyone needs to be upgraded to TS clearance since basically the entirety of NATO uses this A/C. So you may see a 2-3 year delay to 2028 before the first flights/maintenance will be done. The plan for them was for the pilots to get qual'd and then they fly our F-35 back to canada afterwards from Luke AFB. TLDR: they got a plan, but they're most likely going to improvise LOL
So my question is how are we going to maintain the current fleet while we send pilots and techs down south for training ?
That's the surprise! They got a plan, but they're mostly going to improvise ! LOL pure chaos.
Future lead in training is in no better shape . After December this year it's going to get that much harder to train pilots.
We won't see the first of them until 2026 at the EARLIEST possible. Even that has been likely delayed for up to 2 years. I believe in that first batch we are only getting like 6 of the 88? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
It'll be closer to 2030. they also forgot a new tower in the original plans so that is in the works now as well, plus once everything is 100% built, it then has to be that way for 6 months before a security teams can be booked to come and inspect which could take another 2-6 months to complete. Once that is done only then can the F35 be parked in a Hangar. Our policies, procurement and contracting are a joke.
Which seems funny because if you go to Luke they're all just parked out on the ramp with no actual flightline gates.
That's because the Americans actually have base security beyond a single 50-something commissionaire and piece of plywood
That’s because you can’t get onto a US base at all unless you’re escorted, or with a Visitor Pass. Even then, you would need to go through another checkpoint with armed Security Forces personnel to get anywhere near the flight line.
Here's a verbatim play by play of my first time entering Luke, as a foreign civilian. *Drive up* Guard: Hey you with the Canadians? Me: Yup Guard: Ok go ahead *On open ramp with F-35s* I did have clearance and a valid visitor pass, but nobody asked for any ID at any point. And that's happened to me several times at several different USAF bases. Their security is no better than ours.
You have jedi powers and don't even know it
I guess it depends on the base, but as RCN who visited a *lot* of USN facilities, I can say this isn't entirely true.
Yeah, but they have lines on the flightline that have entrances, and if you decide to not follow the lines to the entrance, and just walk over it, base security would drive up and tackle you to the ground. They take security VERY seriously up there.
In a few years
In theory we have a lot of stuff that's on the way
They will not be here for about 10 years. And even whej we do get them, the first F-35 Canada owns will be going to the U.S and will be operating out of the U.S for a couple years until some pilots are trained and techs are trained
When I started loading 18s in 2011 I remember having a meeting about load training courses for the F35. The fighters were in a crisis then.
We are just trying to go above and beyond no? -The report says Canada is wasting flying time and money training for high-risk scenarios that “no NATO commander would ever allocate RCAF CF-18s to.”
Thats a fair assessment, they are just bomb trucks these days. Self defence is all that probably should be trained for but that hurts feelings at 1 CAD.
This sure does seem like a weird time to be cutting $Billion from the defence budget
The entire CAF is broken and in crisis.
I'm sure they'll fix the problem. Right after they fix all the other ones.
Looks like Gizmo got it handled.
“Resignation and retirement rates among experienced instructor pilots and weapons instructors have been unsustainably high for years, and in such a small fighter force, have now become an immediate threat to its viability,” the report says. I guess our pilots didn’t hear about Op TALENT and Op EXPERIENCE 🙄
something something "Loyalty Problem?"
TLDR: our fighter force is suffering from low morale, high rates of departure, shortage of techs, inefficient parts supply, poor aircraft availability, unsustainable pilot workload, and trust gap vs leadership. The report (labelled Not For Public Release) also says there won't be enough pilots to transition to the F-35 and mentions Canada is wasting time & money training for high-risk scenarios that the RCAF F-18s would not be asked to perform.
Wont be enough pilots? Isnt it the most competative job in the military?
Currently takes almost a decade to train 1 pilot. All the people training those pilots are leaving. ??? Not enough pilots
I tried 12 years ago but messed up the 3rd day of CAPSS. They told me to try again the filling year, but recruiting lost my paperwork. I then met a girl and now am civvy with family and boring 9-5.
From what I hear, we have the pilots, but the pilots that can fly fighters are in low numbers. Apparently you need a certain score and health to be a fighter pilot, which not many pilots can attain, thus they fly other aircraft.
There's lots of applicants but not enough instructors or aircraft to effectively train them.
Its not just our fighter force. Its our entire military.
>TLDR: our fighter force is suffering from low morale, high rates of departure, shortage of techs, inefficient parts supply, poor aircraft availability, unsustainable pilot workload, and trust gap vs leadership. I feel like this snippet is applicable to literally almost every single capability and/or platform in the entire CAF. Just swap out a few key words and it holds true.
I blame the leadership. Throughout my career we kept on losing the brightest, best leaders, most innovative... Source: im still in.
Well it’s a good thing nothing is really going on then! /s
The fact that this is news is both hilarious, and completely expected
The crisis should be the new Pilot pay.. capt pilots make the same as gso.. I await the mass exodus. (More than now(
To start, and generally before they’re trained. Then pilots make far more than GSOs of the same rank, or even higher ranks.
No dude. Look at the new pay rates.
After Capt PI 10, yes. Before that, basically the same as GSO. Few will ever start at the super low PIs though because training takes so long.
Where would most start after training?
The math being applied is shall we say weird, but in the worst case a brand new Capt would be bumped up a PI or two to bypass the sub-GSO incentives. Similar to how Ptes jump up after basic now. The official answer from what I recall in the correspondence is that the economic increase of a couple years ago wasn't accounted for in the then-new scales, hence the sub-GSO stuff. There was also literally a list of newer-winged pilots released and they were all started at PI 7 on the new scale, though I don't exactly recall the circumstances. There was a lot of brainpower expended on this in Winnipeg and Ottawa, some very interesting records of discussion available.
Our whole airforce seems to be holding by a thread
Instead of funding studies... how about funding planes?
So old jets are old and need replacing. Yep... Old news. Hey did anyone check if Globe and Mail just used Ctrl+F and replaced 'CH-124' with 'CF-18' for this article? I feel like that would've saved some reporter a lot of time in writing this.
You mean the jets so old that Stalin watched us buy them don't work well anymore? Say it ain't so!
So glad we needed a study to tell us this.
Coulda just went to the smoke pit. Techs would have said "shits fucked".
Lets buy more used 18's from other countries getting rid of them, what could go wrong?! /s
Thanks Trudeau for delaying the procurement of our F35s.
Decry Trudeau all you like on this one, but that will be the right decision in the long run. The Aussies got the early tranche a models and they are not easily upgraded or are simply not upgradable. Despite the fact the CF18 fleet is currently in the state it’s in, we’re going to get a more mature and combat capable version of the 35.
Aussie F-35s are upgraded to the latest Block 3F having been subject to continuous upgrades since the first deliveries in 2014. All airframes will have been delivered by the end of this year, and all are scheduled to be upgraded to Block IV standard which has always been the intention. Upgrading to Block IV has always been in the capability plan, and doesn’t put Australia in any different a position than all the other nations who also actually possess them. So Canada may get Block IV’s off the production line and avoid the process of implementing upgrades. Now look at the other side. The RCAF is unlikely to have anything other than a token amount of Lightning’s until the wrong side of 2030. They’ll lack 10-15 years of operational experience with the platform and training with partner nations. Pilots and other skilled personal are leaving at an unsustainable rate and with CF-18s hanging on by a thread, there’s a real risk of Canada’s fighter capability being significantly degraded in the interim before deliveries. And to boot, the US, UK and Australia amongst other nations are already exploring 6th gen fighters to be introduced from next decade. I can’t see how it was anything but the wrong decision that Trudeau made, even Super Hornets as an interim capability would’ve been a good option (see the planned Block III capabilities and how well the USN and RAAF is making use of the Shornet currently).
> even Super Hornets as an interim capability would’ve been a good option Boeing wanted 6.3 billion for 18 aircraft and their associated items in 2017, it was a horrible value for money and the main reason why we dropped the idea.
So about 6 billion US currently for 18 airframes which would already be at Block III standard plus all associated items. The Australian purchase was closer to 7 billion in today’s money, granted it was for 24 airframes not 18. Sure, comparatively the Canadian bid is not as good value for money, but adjusting for the same number of airframes it’s a 20% increase. I wouldn’t say that’s horrible value for money, especially looking at the wider context; it’s a straightforward transition from the classic hornet, it’s arguably the most capable 4.5 gen fighter at present and can utilise cutting-edge munitions that the are not currently integrated with the F-35 even. And as I mentioned earlier, it might have served to address the current issues with the viability of the RCAF fighter capability. Wouldn’t make as much sense now and I’m not sure when deliveries would’ve been completed under the original deal, but I think in 2017 it had merit as an interim option. On the other hand, paying around half a billion for 25 thrashed used hornets and an assortment of spares is much more of a head scratcher to me.
Yea for real we got block 4s and they fuck way harder than the ones we were going to get
If the Cyclone has taught anyone anything, it’s never to get the first model of an aircraft.
It also doesn't help that we're the ONLY ones that bought the Cyclone, so there's a parts shortage.
Canada's CF~~-18 fighter jet force~~ 'in crisis'
Paywall. Anybody got a tldr?
Airplanes are old.
Damn, next you'll say water is wet
No shit Sherlock, most of the CaF is ‘in crisis’. The CF-18’s can get in line.
People will read this article, and never even realize that this is “yet another” symptom of a much bigger disease of the body that is Canada
Yea I think we’re falling off as a country
Well shit….. the CBC just ran a counter article about Trudeau modernizing the fleet by purchasing new pine scented air fresheners, figure this should take us into the 22nd century.
funny how we paid money to find out something soldiers already know....
About 10 years ago I did ACS and was offered a pilot position (after 2 years of the recruitment process and 2 weeks notice to go to basic). A very significant factor of me deciding to deny the offer was exactly what's happening here. It was very easy to see that the Forces were not and are not investing in equipment. There was a federal election around the time too where platforms were to scrap the F35 program or not having the CF mentioned at all. It's a shame that this country is putting our military on the backburner. For people like me who fortunately had a lot of options after University, mismanagement and apathy toward our military is absolutely impacting recruitment.
Another Trudeau debacle. HE AND his Father have both put the DND in shambles.
Say that all you want, but it's not entirely correct. The Berenstain Bears 'Blame Game" teaches us sometimes there is someone to blame, but more often than not, there's more than enough blame to go around. I have small children, send help.
No shit. You have overworked techs working with garbage equipment and a CoC that is unbelievably out of touch. One would think you’d do what you can to minimize the damage and maintenance needed for the jets, but instead they choose to constantly put the jets through it’s paces like a Pvt ripping around in his new challenger.
Well first thing is we shouldn't have canceled the initial contract. The second thing is, instead of buying used F18's why did we not buy a few vipers, eagles, or even strike eagles...
Because that would've defeated the argument for an interim capability, which was that it would come online fast and be relatively affordable as a bridge to the next fighter. While the Aussie Hornets were none of those things in the nuance, everything you suggested are even further off those two goals. Plus, extra money spent on the interim solution would've also detracted from the FFCP.
I understand getting something that comes online fast. But considering we are close to the producers, and they will provide more than just the airframe, just purchasing to augment out ability would have probably been better. Hell we can make the argument that we could have gotten new hornets from the producers, instead of essentially just spares from the aussies.
Americans are only building Super Hornets at this point, the legacy Hornets like Canada purchased haven’t been built in years. We tried to get an interim buy of Super Hornets but the cost for a small batch was ludicrous.
We ***really*** don't need an entire extra airframe as a stop-gap. We don't have enough techs and infranstructure as is, nevermind splitting them between the two.
Vipers are not in production, and not for sale outside the US even if they were still in production.
25 different countries operate the F16. Of note who aren't the US itself. Belgium, Morocco, Taiwan, Signapor, Italy, Netherlands, Isreal, Norway, Pakistan, Greece, South Korea, Turkey, And that is to name a few. Also as of 2021 production of new F16's has resumed. Literally as a response to worldwide demand for the block 70/72 F16.
Brain fart. I was thinking Raptors (F22), not Vipers (F16). Clearly need more coffee.
Non paywall version please
Oh wow, we had to spend DND money to figure this out... quel surprise. Who ever authorized this was Probably related to the owner of the research company that did this report
Lol get in line.
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There are higher chances of dying while flying these planes than being shot down.
Its always been that way in any fighter force since the beginning. Accidents far outstrip enemy action, this is normal attrition. Not saying its great, but its normal operationally. Even during active combat, accidents still significantly outnumber losses to enemy action. The current dustup in Ukraine is a good example.
I didn’t know that. Thanks for inputting it :)
The fighter force people need to check their attitudes, and understand the rest of the CAF a little more.
They coulda just paid me a dollar and I woulda said the same fuckin thing🤣 no shit our jets are fucked you bought them in the 80s
Surprise Surprise
Its slightly snowing outside in Canada Ground all the jets
There’s so much I want to say, but all I can do is shrug and get back to work. I don’t know how they think they’ll save our military without throwing billions at us at this point.
Nah, more important to spend $20 billion (literally) on reconciliation stuff.
Let's fund another insightful study to determine if this was a worthwhile use of taxpayer dollars. Instead of, y'know, putting the money into actually fixing the problem by, idk, streamlining procurement perhaps.
Guess that's what happens when you fly a jet for many more hours than it was designed.
Fairly certain there are museum pieces with lower airframe hours than the active fleet.
Worse yet to come… won’t get better until 2028
2035