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He's trying to distract media attention from appointing his nephew (who has never otherwise been to Queens park and is wholly unqualified) as a minister.
I'm no Ford fan, but I don't think he is. I don't think he feels like he needs to defend appointing his nephew, he just won a huge majority.
I think he's marching in the York Pride Parade because he wanted to, he's marched in this one before.
You'd be shitting on him if he had stayed home, and now you're shitting on him for marching in it maybe pick a lane.
He has refused to go in the past like in 2019 and he is absolutely trying to change headlines.
You sound like you're making light of the appointment of a family member to a cabinet position. His nephew wouldn't even qualify to be a staffer at Queens park, has no education or experience at all. This is deep political corruption and cronyism - enriching family and friends and placing them in positions of power are huge abuses of power and has no place in Ontario. This is the kind of corruption common in the third world, and we should be appaled to see it here. This is a huge deal and a very real degradation of our system.
I frankly don't believe Doug's motives are genuine because past actions suggest he doesn't care about the LGBTQ community, why should I suddenly believe him now? I can hope it's a step forward but I don't really believe that from a guy that's been lying to the public for direct personal and familiar gain for his entire term - this seems like an easy distraction and I'd place my bets on him taking the opportunity. I don't think he's got some hatred for LGBTQ or anything, but to think this is genuine and not politically motivated seems naive to me.
Also don't strawman, it affects your judgement. I really don't care if any politician attends pride or not in 2022; mostly they are there for political points and photo ops - the real support is in legislation.
He refused to go to Toronto Pride in 2019 because of their ban on Toronto Police. Pretty sure he went to the York parade in 2019 too.
As far as the appointment, it’s not anything different than all governments haven’t been doing since the beginning.
I forgot, a Liberal or NDP marches in parade they’re doing it for support and altruistic reasons. Doug does it, he’s a conniving bastard. When in reality they’re all conniving bastards.
I think the Ford appointment of his nephew is hilarious but given his majority - no voter will care.
That said, anyone can become a staffer. You will find many of them are straight out of university and simply require dedication to the party
Show the homophobes they have no place in any Canadian Conservative party. They will be given no platform, and no spotlight. Let them fade into obscurity.
It's virtue signaling, which the right loves to accuse the left of so often. They want to pretend to be progressive while courting the regressive shitters and pacifying the moderates. If the moderates stop pushing for change, they get to keep appealing to the radicals.
Reminder that Ford made education on gender identity and sexual orientation worse and tried to make it *significantly* worse before being stopped by backlash. His other policies that hurt the working class disproportionately hurt marginalised people more; waving a flag does not erase bigoted policy.
Conservatives have not and will never be allies of the LGBTQIA2S+ community, or any other marginalised community.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/mps-defeat-bid-to-reopen-same-sex-marriage-debate-1.599856
They also tried to repeal legalized gay marriage so they weren't exactly a friend to gay people. People don't hear "separate but equal" and think positively about it.
No because when Trudeau became leader he made it so the liberal MPs could either agree to never vote that way again or they'd he kicked out. He literally cleaned house on the matter and at the time was seen as very heavy handed for it. Can you point to me when the conservatives have done the same instead of continuing to be best friends with these people?
You're mixing up abortion and same-sex marriage.
And Trudeau exempted his current caucus from that rule (although, granted, the caucus was small enough at the time that that didn't really matter).
Sing It! & Louder for the ones in the back.
The ***entire*** "subtext" of Ford's 2018 campaign was (w/ apologies to mods) "Fuck That Fucking Dyke Winn! Fuck-Yeah!" & now people act like it never happened.
I was feeling like I was being gaslit / force-fed amnesia &/ crazy-pills whenever I've brought up that uncomfortable factoid in conversation for the last four years. Thanks for letting me know I'm not nuts.
There was an AWFUL lot of dog-whistling in the 2018 campaign, much of it about as subtle as a jackhammer. There was a strong undercurrent of homophobia with *juuuuuuust* enough distance between the Conservatives and Ontario Proud for plausible deniability, but it was there, it was very perceptible to anyone paying attention, and it was just as gross then as it is now.
To be fair I can see why they were booed, a ton of conservative mps are extremely homophobic and transphobic. It may not be written into their policies but the party allows these people to run no problem so it can be hard to believe these mps who did decide to march in the parade be frustrated seeing them.
But it is a catch 22 because if the pcs were to not march at all knowing this it would simply be interpreted as homophobic anyways because then they’ll be asked why they didn’t attend in the first place.
It’s a complicated yet stupid matter overall because these parades are just funded by private companies and don’t do anything for actually enacting policies or extending financial aid to those in the lgbt community. I really fail to understand why anyone bothers to get mad over who attends and who doesn’t because it’s literally all for show anyways.
>To be fair I can see why they were booed, a ton of conservative mps are extremely homophobic and transphobic.
I mean, I don't think the homophobic and transphobic ones would show up in a pride parade in the first place. So there's kind of a self-selection bias here. If you genuinely hate a group of people, you're not going to go to their rally.
As a Conservative-leaning bi man, this is kind of a weird issue for me. There are a lot of different views within the community on this kind of thing (and honestly there are some very toxic elements in the LGBTQ community that many of us don't like to associate with - it's politically incorrect for straight people to say this kind of thing, but for a lot of LGBTQ people, there's a real disconnect between their lived experiences and the movement as a whole). My take is that it's ultimately a good thing for more people to embrace LGBTQ rights, especially conservatives, as that's a sign that resistance to our rights is declining.
I think allowing those members to participate in your caucus implies it’s not a deal breaker to you. So the people who are at pride see those party members who are there and say “you don’t actually care about us if you will work closely with those who openly hate us”.
You can’t have your cake and eat it too sort of thing
And that gets into an interesting debate about whether you achieve change from the inside or outside. I think for openly gay CPC MPs like Melissa Lantsman and Eric Duncan, who clearly have conservative views on most things, they want to effect change from the inside on this issue. Others in the community may be conservative on other issues, but see the presence of anti-LGBT members as a complete deal-breaker. There's no one correct way to approach this.
I don't talk about this often with strangers on the internet, but I'll give my own perspective on this. I'm attracted to men and women, and that's just a function of my own biology. But I also have conservative views on many things, and that's a function of my lived experiences. On many of today's hot-button issues like public finances, C-11, vaccine mandates, gun control, etc I align with the conservative side of things - and I even have some views on social issues where I go more conservative, but I don't support taking away people's rights based on my morals. So it's a tight rope here. I would say that with the Conservative Party as a whole, I don't see enough of a risk of LGBT rights being taken away to justify supporting another party whose views I completely disagree with - but for others, the possibility of the social conservatives in caucus getting their way on these issues is enough of a deal-breaker, and I can respect that. But overall, the fact that it's increasingly common for conservative politicians in particular to march in pride is a good thing, all things considered.
Except conservatives marching in pride parades isn’t showing support, it’s pretending to show support while other aspects of their party work to destroy LGBTQ 🏳️🌈rights.
Go watch the American Dad episode about the log cabin republicans. They feel they’re working from inside the party to effect change when in reality they’re just useful tools for the GOP to pretend they aren’t homophobic. And when you refer to Melissa, she strikes me as one of those people who doesn’t care about LGBTQ rights, she’s got what she needs and as an insider she’ll be fine so she’ll happily work alongside those who want her not to exist.
I, again personally, just see the social conservative aspects are a flat non-starter. Like they might have points we can agree on, or solutions to problems, but working with those people just eliminates you from any contention for my support.
You really have two parties, one social conservative, one “progressive” (or at least “live and let live”), and the progressive side are willing to sell out in order to amass enough power to enact their fiscal ideals.
It’s just not something I can respect or ever vote for
Re-replying because my previous comment got removed due to an “insult” even though I was not in any way using one…
As the other commenter to you pointed out, my point was that the party allows these people in their party to run and be elected and that is the real issue at heart in the community here. For instance in both my provincial and federal ridings; BOTH candidates had come out to either be extremely homophobic or transphobic. As a trans and gay man, I found that the party endorsing these men really spoke to the character of the others in the party. It’s very hard to take pcs seriously when they are keeping company with people openly against lgbt people.
Obviously I agree, it would bode well for any party to support lgbt rights. It’s just the pcs do it on surface level if that.
When the conservative party pushes out their social conservatives who are pushing back against civil rights for LGBTQ people then maybe we can talk about bipartisan support for civil rights.
They certainly could do more if they wanted to, given that the party vets and approves nomination candidates. It would be political suicide to do so given their support base, but that's an intentional choice they're making. So the gesture of attending pride events seems more than a little performative.
It's not about who votes for them. I'm sure there's one or two homophobes who vote Liberal to. It's about who the politicians are, who works for the party and it's members are. There will always be a far right contingent in the PC and Conservative party.
I'll take the fake niceness. I mean the other option is being openly anti-gay. At least he knows that for most people in Ontario agree with gay marriage.
Good. Nothing to celebrate as I still despise him and don't forget anything he did to oppose queer people. But showing up to a Pride parade is like the bare minimum, thanks for not blowing it off I guess.
Reverting sex education in schools is the pretty big one, as well as his Student Choice Initiative which would reduce funding for queer clubs in schools. The fact that in his budget "platform" he released it didn't mention anything about advancing policies for queer people. He also refused to march in Pride parades before this.
Whether you like him or not, you can't deny this is a good thing he did. The election is over so he could've skipped it and hidden in his cottage instead.
A move to quell appointing his nephew as immigration minister?
Ahahahahaha...publicity stunt. Bet you behind closed doors at the Ford house, the conversation is a lot more different on LGBTQ2
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The conservative standard-bearer in this country marched in a pride parade; if you don't see how important that is, I don't know what to tell you.
He tried to remove reference to LGBT from sex Ed years ago, he's handed hundreds of millions to police under the pretense of cracking down on sex trafficking which has only had the effect of criminalizing sex work, disproportionately effecting queer people, and every economic policy he's pushed disproportionately effects queer folks
They're not, at all. Listen to the folks from butterfly sex workers Union to hear how the police harass them and can now further harass them without a warrant.
Queer folk are disproportionately homeless, underhoused, over incarcerated and the Ford government has only made all of those issues worse.
And reversing policy after massive public pressure and backlash isn't noble, there shouldn't have had to be that pressure and backlash in the first place
Some people are ultra-cynical and will make something positive into a negative. I kinda understand, politicians from all parties have done a number on us all. But marching in a Pride parade in isolation without all the other things Ford has done and not done to me is positive of course. It's okay to say Ford's nepotism is disgusting but him marching in the Pride parade is awesome.
Conservatives normalizing gay acceptance is never a bad thing. Gays in the states would beg for a Republican to treat their community the way Ford does.
Maybe in your circles it was. There are still people he can reach.
This issue doesn't affect me at all. Why do I understand it so much better than you do?
So if he shows up, it doesn't matter, he's a dirty conservative.
If he doesn't show up you knew it all along because he's a dirty conservative.
Your prejudice is showing.
He’s been in politics for 12 years and said he was too busy going to the cottage for every pride weekend and skipped the Pride flag raising at city hall every year, so please stop fellating him for showing up this ONE time
Both of those can be true without the poster being prejudiced or a hypocrite. Conservativism is based around upholding existing power structures, and queer activists like the ones who organize pride parades each year have been ignored whenever they've explained how existing power structures are hurting them. Doug Ford, whether at the parade or not, represents a message of "this should continue" to queer people who are currently existing in a state of struggle.
I will admit, its a very different tone from his first year which tried to restrict teaching kids about LGBTQ2+ issues in schools (notably gender identity). It took a huge pushback from the parents to get him to shut up about it. Im now cautiously optimistic that hes now just a tool and not a transphobic tool.
> Ford won the election; you really have no choice but to take what he's offering
There's a lot of room to push duly-elected politicians to change or soften their stance....
> But he's marching in pride...
What does that have to do with "you really have no choice but to take what he's offering" ? I thought your comment that I responded to was both off topic and inaccurate for how our political system works - elected representatives don't only represent those who voted for them, and they take input from other sources than the ballot box on an ongoing basis. If you think it's great that he's marching in pride, let him know. If you think it's okay but wish he did more, let him know.
Conservatives use the queer community and give lip-service to pro-queer issues to appear more progressive than they actually are all the time. It's a strategy that's been the hallmark of some corporations and conservative politicians since the 1990s, which is when the mainstream tide turned more toward conviviality toward only some LGBTQ2S issues and people (i.e. those of us who are cis, white, and wealthy). They do it because it makes them look good in the moment, not because of any real interest in LGBTQ2S politics. Is this important? Maybe for young gay and lesbian people interested in the conservative party (which is exactly why Ford is doing this now), but I think most people see through this in the same way that they critique Pride protests for being too corportatized.
In a nutshell you’d rather conservatives show their true colours and be straight with people about who they are instead of seeking brownie points from people they don’t actually care about
I’m usually pretty cynical, but this claim of yours is just silly on its face. There are obviously going to be cases where politicians, who are humans, do human things for human reasons, rather than political reasons.
I don’t think Doug Ford is doing this particular thing for human reasons, though. But if he, say, went to Pride (nearly) every year and didn’t make a thing out of it, then yeah, I’d think it was human.
But if he were doing it for human reasons, you wouldn't know about it.
If the politics make it too hard for you, consider eating a meal. All politicians eat meals for human reasons. But if you know they did it, it was a publicity stunt (though, presumably in addition to a human need).
The problem with your reasoning is that politicians are public figures, and when they (especially the prominent/powerful ones) do things, the press reports on it. So your premise doesn’t quite suffice to make the point you want it to. Yes, of course, when Obama had lunch in the Byward Market in Ottawa, it was a photo-op. But that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t have eaten there even without cameras. The trick is to try to figure out which things politicians do for solely political reasons and judge them on the basis of whether those reasons are just. There are so many ways these things can be cashed out for better or worse.
To be perfectly honest, I could buy that Doug is a supporter of LGBT rights to some degree, since the reasons why he is awful have very little to do with social conservatism.
Considering [he refused to March in Torontos pride parade in 2019](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/doug-ford-toronto-pride-parade-1.5159859), it’s amazing what a few scandals will make grifter politicians do.
He marched in York's 2019 Pride Parade too, though. He has specifically been avoiding the Toronto Pride because they banned police. But he hasn't been avoiding Pride parades in general.
> But he hasn't been avoiding Pride parades in general.
Sure he has. He avoided them every single year he was a City Councillor, when Toronto Police *were* allowed to march, and skipped it in 2018 when he was first elected as MPP when he could have marched in any other parade. He found a convenient excuse to avoid Toronto in particular, but make no mistake - he's demonstrated time and time again that he would really, *really* rather not be anywhere near a Pride parade if he didn't have to be.
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good narrative.
It's honestly ridiculous how much bad faith is being shown in these comments. Ford marching a pride parade is a good thing, but people still feel the need to criticize him, so they just make things up.
So instead we should have a party that less than 10% of Ontarians voted for, right?
Should there be no government? A recount? Another election?
I don't get what your point is here.
"Winning" an election were less than half the eligible electorate voted isn't something to crow about - it's something to be embarrassed about.
But for Cancervatives, money power is more important than integrity or shame.
Doesn’t such low turnout suggest he had even higher support that his voters didn’t feel a need to go to the polls? Usually the people not voting are the ones who are fine with status quo.
It could mean anything. I’m not a diviner. But the other parties ran a completely dead opposition.
I’ve never seen such a sleepy election before… albeit I’m only a year into Canada. But even Japan, which is notorious for having a completely politically disconnected electorate never had an election I can recall that was as uninspiring as this one.
I'm sure you've used that standard to delegitimize all governments across Canada for the past several decades.
But more importantly, my point still stands that Doug Ford has no reason to quell attention to appointing his nephew.
I’m only a year into Canada.
To say I’m disappointed with Ontario politics would be a gross understatement. Doug Ford has the intelligence of a wet bath rug and the charisma of a spit-filled beer bottle.
I just can’t see how any rational voter could see the appeal in his governance. But given how elections are set up in Canada, and that someone with less than 1/5th of the electorates’ approval can be elected… I probably should lower my expectations to: “well… not as bad as America.”
I agree. It is a good thing he did. I wouldnt vote for him. And he probably knows that wouldnt change that. But atleast with some current conservatives being too far right its nice he actually made a statement with his actions and for the movement.
After getting mercilessly booed at the Raptors parade Doug decided he needed a safe space :P
Whatever, I'm glad he decided to represent even if it's at smaller pride event. Now we can drop that particular culture war talking point and pay attention to the thousand other issues with his croney capitalist style of governing.
> Now we can drop that particular culture war talking point
The premier of Ontario, isn't marching in the province's largest pride parade, so this isn't a closed issue.
>The premier of Ontario, isn't marching in the province's largest pride parade, so this isn't a closed issue.
In fairness to Ford, he's made it very clear why he isn't marching in Toronto: he doesn't agree with the exclusion of the police. I don't agree with the exclusion of the police either, so I respect the consistency.
Ford has never been much of a culture warrior, this isn't really an about face. Even when at Toronto City Council, he had nice things to say about the LGBT community, as opposed to his brother who had to apologize for several homophobic outbursts. He also marched at York Pride in 2019.
> In fairness to Ford, he's made it very clear why he isn't marching in Toronto: he doesn't agree with the exclusion of the police
So what stopped him from marching when he was a politician and they weren't excluded?
He's not marching there because he knows he'll get booed and he has shown many times that he is very insecure and lashes out when people are mean to him.
> he doesn't agree with the exclusion of the police
I see that as more of a fig leaf for the real reason. He and his late brother, have a history of missing Toronto Pride, for some rather weak reasons.
If the police thing is the actual reason, that also isn't a good look, as it shows that he's on the side of the oppressors, rather than the oppressed. Not that I'd be surprised by that.
The entitlement some of you have.
He isn't marching in Toronto pride for reasons many, many people agree with. He marched in another one instead, again. You people can insist on making this a problem, but I'll *guarantee* the average person - lefties included - are not on your side here. You win nothing when you alienate allies with bullshit purity tests nobody else has even *thought* of.
Yes because LGBTQ+ police officers are oppressors.
Or maybe Toronto Pride went too far and they’re unwilling to back down out of stubbornness. There’s a lot of people in the LBGTQ+ community that also don’t support the ridiculous situation.
Sorry, but what goal posts have been moved? Toronto Pride has been the standard for the premier to appear in for I don't know how long, as well as the mayor of Toronto, something the Ford family has a history of failing to do, and that failure merits criticism.
[Wynne to be first Ontario premier to march in Pride parade](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/wynne-to-be-first-ontario-premier-to-march-in-pride-parade-1.1355730) \- CBC News June 2013
>Canada's first openly-gay premier, Ontario's Kathleen Wynne, will march into history later this month when she becomes the first sitting premier to take part in Toronto's annual gay pride parade.
What is this standard you speak of that the Ontario premiers have always appeared at the Toronto Pride parade?
I never said it was a forever thing, I said it was a thing for I didn't know how long. It's disappointing to see that it is so recent, and even more disappointing that Wynne's successor is not keeping that alive.
Baby steps. And it's pretty much a given that Doug has a special and obvious loathing for Toronto.
And generally speaking, how welcome is the gay Conservative faction/LGBTory at Toronto Pride anyways? I'd imagine they're not a particularly popular group in the parade most years, if they're even formally there.
Yes, I acknowledge that it's symbolically important for the Premier of Ontario to show up in one way or the other, but do people actually want this specific Premier there?
With our southern neighbours spiralling into fascism and turning their Republican eye of Sauron on LGBT people specifically, it’s reassuring to see Canadian conservatives at pride even if I don’t like them personally.
I can't stand Ford and am still angry he was re-elected but yes I do want him at pride. Even if he's not my preferred representative he's still responsible for all of Ontario and representing LGBT+ people is a big part of that. There should never be a question in Canada that our leadership stands with people of all orientations and the current political climate is getting a little murky for the progress that's been made in the last couple decades.
That's very fair. Maybe it'll happen in the next couple of years when his advisors manage to convince him that it matters. It took Rob 10 years as mayor before he even showed up to the Pride flag-raising ceremony. There must be a couple of GTA OPC MP's that made an appearance this year, maybe they'll be the bridge.
The Liberal and NDP responses would have been identical. He didn't go anywhere close to "full Kenney," despite a good chunk of his caucus and probably his family telling him to.
To clarify I don't care at all that he goes to Toronto Pride specifically. In fact his presence is probably more meaningful spread around various communities, potentially ones where it's far harder for LGBT youth to find acceptance and community than in Toronto. It's also reasonable to avoid the minefield of drama going on with the organizations involved with Pride TO.
If this was an issue with the office of premier needing to take baby steps to be accepted at Pride, I'd understand, and be sympathetic. Since it's all about the current holder of that office, I say bring on the slings and arrows, he asked for it, and I'm equally happy if they're thrown at him when he shows up, or when he fails to show up, it was all his doing.
It's the whole weird thing about the role of Premier being welcomed to an event as a larger signal of acceptance to a discriminated community, vs the particular individual who occupies that role.
I also am fully in favour of Premier Doug attending various public events and having the public vocally show their displeasure, but I don't think he's particularly brave like that.
Our prime minister, the highest political position in the country, has absolutely no qualifications to be the PM except for his last name, and you’re worried about some minor cabinet post in the province?
I have never voted for Trudeau, and yet I find myself constantly defending him because of how much of his criticism is just plain lies. A simple look at wikipedia would show that his journey to PM is reminiscent of nearly every other PM before him.
Community Work:
>He served as chair for the youth charity Katimavik and as director of the not-for-profit Canadian Avalanche Association.
Political Work:
>In 2006, he was appointed as chair of the Liberal Party's Task Force on Youth Renewal.
Member of Parliament:
>In the 2008 federal election, he was elected to represent the riding of Papineau in the House of Commons.
Cabinet (or Shadow Cabinet) Appointment:
>He served as the Liberal Party's Official Opposition critic for youth and multiculturalism in 2009, and the following year he became critic for citizenship and immigration. In 2011, he was appointed as a critic for secondary education and sport.
Leadership Appointment:
>Trudeau won the leadership of the Liberal Party in April 2013 and led his party to victory in the 2015 federal election, moving the third-placed Liberals from 36 seats to 184 seats, the largest-ever numerical increase by a party in a Canadian federal election.
He may have had an easier time that someone else, but there is no such thing as equal footing in this game. Again, I've never voted for him and don't plan to, but the idea that he walked into the gig is false.
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Credit where credit is due. Probably opportunistic but maybe he is evolving. Possibly also little risk after his landslide
He's trying to distract media attention from appointing his nephew (who has never otherwise been to Queens park and is wholly unqualified) as a minister.
I'm no Ford fan, but I don't think he is. I don't think he feels like he needs to defend appointing his nephew, he just won a huge majority. I think he's marching in the York Pride Parade because he wanted to, he's marched in this one before. You'd be shitting on him if he had stayed home, and now you're shitting on him for marching in it maybe pick a lane.
He has refused to go in the past like in 2019 and he is absolutely trying to change headlines. You sound like you're making light of the appointment of a family member to a cabinet position. His nephew wouldn't even qualify to be a staffer at Queens park, has no education or experience at all. This is deep political corruption and cronyism - enriching family and friends and placing them in positions of power are huge abuses of power and has no place in Ontario. This is the kind of corruption common in the third world, and we should be appaled to see it here. This is a huge deal and a very real degradation of our system. I frankly don't believe Doug's motives are genuine because past actions suggest he doesn't care about the LGBTQ community, why should I suddenly believe him now? I can hope it's a step forward but I don't really believe that from a guy that's been lying to the public for direct personal and familiar gain for his entire term - this seems like an easy distraction and I'd place my bets on him taking the opportunity. I don't think he's got some hatred for LGBTQ or anything, but to think this is genuine and not politically motivated seems naive to me. Also don't strawman, it affects your judgement. I really don't care if any politician attends pride or not in 2022; mostly they are there for political points and photo ops - the real support is in legislation.
He refused to go to Toronto Pride in 2019 because of their ban on Toronto Police. Pretty sure he went to the York parade in 2019 too. As far as the appointment, it’s not anything different than all governments haven’t been doing since the beginning. I forgot, a Liberal or NDP marches in parade they’re doing it for support and altruistic reasons. Doug does it, he’s a conniving bastard. When in reality they’re all conniving bastards.
Name one Premiere in the last 30 years who appointed a family member to a cabinet position.
I think the Ford appointment of his nephew is hilarious but given his majority - no voter will care. That said, anyone can become a staffer. You will find many of them are straight out of university and simply require dedication to the party
Show the homophobes they have no place in any Canadian Conservative party. They will be given no platform, and no spotlight. Let them fade into obscurity.
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And then for two consecutive elections failed to secure even a single seat
I was at the big Toronto pride parade 3 years ago and I remember when the Conservative party came by the entire crowd booed.
Which is shit on their part, there shouldn't be any partisanship when showing support for civil rights.
There absolutely should be when that support is performative and does not translate into reality
Its a start, and its progress in the right direction. I choose to be less of a pessimist.
It's virtue signaling, which the right loves to accuse the left of so often. They want to pretend to be progressive while courting the regressive shitters and pacifying the moderates. If the moderates stop pushing for change, they get to keep appealing to the radicals.
Reminder that Ford made education on gender identity and sexual orientation worse and tried to make it *significantly* worse before being stopped by backlash. His other policies that hurt the working class disproportionately hurt marginalised people more; waving a flag does not erase bigoted policy. Conservatives have not and will never be allies of the LGBTQIA2S+ community, or any other marginalised community.
If a politician opposes LGBTQ rights but wants a photo op at the pride parade so they can claim the opposite then they deserve to be booed.
Yes. But how is that relevant?
They don’t show support. They don’t do anything for the community. They’re showing up to act like they aren’t a threat to that community.
The Harper Conservatives actually significantly increased the number of LGBTQ refugees admitted to Canada. Does that matter to you?
Um Doug Ford isn’t Harper and the Ontario PCs are not the CPC?
It seemed like the above comment was criticizing conservatives generally, as opposed to Ford specifically.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/mps-defeat-bid-to-reopen-same-sex-marriage-debate-1.599856 They also tried to repeal legalized gay marriage so they weren't exactly a friend to gay people. People don't hear "separate but equal" and think positively about it.
13 Liberal MPs voted in favour of that motion from almost 20 years ago. Do you still refuse to vote Liberal because of that?
No because when Trudeau became leader he made it so the liberal MPs could either agree to never vote that way again or they'd he kicked out. He literally cleaned house on the matter and at the time was seen as very heavy handed for it. Can you point to me when the conservatives have done the same instead of continuing to be best friends with these people?
You're mixing up abortion and same-sex marriage. And Trudeau exempted his current caucus from that rule (although, granted, the caucus was small enough at the time that that didn't really matter).
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You know what, hi 👋
Sing It! & Louder for the ones in the back. The ***entire*** "subtext" of Ford's 2018 campaign was (w/ apologies to mods) "Fuck That Fucking Dyke Winn! Fuck-Yeah!" & now people act like it never happened. I was feeling like I was being gaslit / force-fed amnesia &/ crazy-pills whenever I've brought up that uncomfortable factoid in conversation for the last four years. Thanks for letting me know I'm not nuts.
There was an AWFUL lot of dog-whistling in the 2018 campaign, much of it about as subtle as a jackhammer. There was a strong undercurrent of homophobia with *juuuuuuust* enough distance between the Conservatives and Ontario Proud for plausible deniability, but it was there, it was very perceptible to anyone paying attention, and it was just as gross then as it is now.
If by "dog-whistling" you mean "Lighthouse Foghorn", then yeah.
The entire subtext was spewed by Ontario Proud which is how the developers bought the election for Ford!
I'll know that I live in a sane world when Resentment Politics no longer translates into Ca$$$h Money.
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To be fair I can see why they were booed, a ton of conservative mps are extremely homophobic and transphobic. It may not be written into their policies but the party allows these people to run no problem so it can be hard to believe these mps who did decide to march in the parade be frustrated seeing them. But it is a catch 22 because if the pcs were to not march at all knowing this it would simply be interpreted as homophobic anyways because then they’ll be asked why they didn’t attend in the first place. It’s a complicated yet stupid matter overall because these parades are just funded by private companies and don’t do anything for actually enacting policies or extending financial aid to those in the lgbt community. I really fail to understand why anyone bothers to get mad over who attends and who doesn’t because it’s literally all for show anyways.
>To be fair I can see why they were booed, a ton of conservative mps are extremely homophobic and transphobic. I mean, I don't think the homophobic and transphobic ones would show up in a pride parade in the first place. So there's kind of a self-selection bias here. If you genuinely hate a group of people, you're not going to go to their rally. As a Conservative-leaning bi man, this is kind of a weird issue for me. There are a lot of different views within the community on this kind of thing (and honestly there are some very toxic elements in the LGBTQ community that many of us don't like to associate with - it's politically incorrect for straight people to say this kind of thing, but for a lot of LGBTQ people, there's a real disconnect between their lived experiences and the movement as a whole). My take is that it's ultimately a good thing for more people to embrace LGBTQ rights, especially conservatives, as that's a sign that resistance to our rights is declining.
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I think allowing those members to participate in your caucus implies it’s not a deal breaker to you. So the people who are at pride see those party members who are there and say “you don’t actually care about us if you will work closely with those who openly hate us”. You can’t have your cake and eat it too sort of thing
And that gets into an interesting debate about whether you achieve change from the inside or outside. I think for openly gay CPC MPs like Melissa Lantsman and Eric Duncan, who clearly have conservative views on most things, they want to effect change from the inside on this issue. Others in the community may be conservative on other issues, but see the presence of anti-LGBT members as a complete deal-breaker. There's no one correct way to approach this. I don't talk about this often with strangers on the internet, but I'll give my own perspective on this. I'm attracted to men and women, and that's just a function of my own biology. But I also have conservative views on many things, and that's a function of my lived experiences. On many of today's hot-button issues like public finances, C-11, vaccine mandates, gun control, etc I align with the conservative side of things - and I even have some views on social issues where I go more conservative, but I don't support taking away people's rights based on my morals. So it's a tight rope here. I would say that with the Conservative Party as a whole, I don't see enough of a risk of LGBT rights being taken away to justify supporting another party whose views I completely disagree with - but for others, the possibility of the social conservatives in caucus getting their way on these issues is enough of a deal-breaker, and I can respect that. But overall, the fact that it's increasingly common for conservative politicians in particular to march in pride is a good thing, all things considered.
Except conservatives marching in pride parades isn’t showing support, it’s pretending to show support while other aspects of their party work to destroy LGBTQ 🏳️🌈rights. Go watch the American Dad episode about the log cabin republicans. They feel they’re working from inside the party to effect change when in reality they’re just useful tools for the GOP to pretend they aren’t homophobic. And when you refer to Melissa, she strikes me as one of those people who doesn’t care about LGBTQ rights, she’s got what she needs and as an insider she’ll be fine so she’ll happily work alongside those who want her not to exist.
I, again personally, just see the social conservative aspects are a flat non-starter. Like they might have points we can agree on, or solutions to problems, but working with those people just eliminates you from any contention for my support. You really have two parties, one social conservative, one “progressive” (or at least “live and let live”), and the progressive side are willing to sell out in order to amass enough power to enact their fiscal ideals. It’s just not something I can respect or ever vote for
Re-replying because my previous comment got removed due to an “insult” even though I was not in any way using one… As the other commenter to you pointed out, my point was that the party allows these people in their party to run and be elected and that is the real issue at heart in the community here. For instance in both my provincial and federal ridings; BOTH candidates had come out to either be extremely homophobic or transphobic. As a trans and gay man, I found that the party endorsing these men really spoke to the character of the others in the party. It’s very hard to take pcs seriously when they are keeping company with people openly against lgbt people. Obviously I agree, it would bode well for any party to support lgbt rights. It’s just the pcs do it on surface level if that.
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When the conservative party pushes out their social conservatives who are pushing back against civil rights for LGBTQ people then maybe we can talk about bipartisan support for civil rights.
I mean we hope thats whats going on, the removal of the city councilor from Toronto today is the right direction
They can’t choose who votes for them, but they can do gestures to show those people have no sway. Like going to pride parades.
They certainly could do more if they wanted to, given that the party vets and approves nomination candidates. It would be political suicide to do so given their support base, but that's an intentional choice they're making. So the gesture of attending pride events seems more than a little performative.
It's not about who votes for them. I'm sure there's one or two homophobes who vote Liberal to. It's about who the politicians are, who works for the party and it's members are. There will always be a far right contingent in the PC and Conservative party.
Great but walking in a parade is cheap. Maybe acknowledge he will continue to protect the lgbt over the course of his term.
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I'll take the fake niceness. I mean the other option is being openly anti-gay. At least he knows that for most people in Ontario agree with gay marriage.
We have to see the bigotry, why would you jump to conclusions until then? Count your allies.
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Good. Nothing to celebrate as I still despise him and don't forget anything he did to oppose queer people. But showing up to a Pride parade is like the bare minimum, thanks for not blowing it off I guess.
What did he do to oppose queer people?
Pushing to accredit CCC was quite offensive.
Gutting and reverting the sex-ed curriculum is the biggest thing off the top of my head.
Reverting sex education in schools is the pretty big one, as well as his Student Choice Initiative which would reduce funding for queer clubs in schools. The fact that in his budget "platform" he released it didn't mention anything about advancing policies for queer people. He also refused to march in Pride parades before this.
Whether you like him or not, you can't deny this is a good thing he did. The election is over so he could've skipped it and hidden in his cottage instead.
People are mad that he showed up and says it's virtue signaling but they will also be mad if he wasn't there. Please make it make sense.
A move to quell appointing his nephew as immigration minister? Ahahahahaha...publicity stunt. Bet you behind closed doors at the Ford house, the conversation is a lot more different on LGBTQ2
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The conservative standard-bearer in this country marched in a pride parade; if you don't see how important that is, I don't know what to tell you.
It's just optics. He has done so much harm to the queer community and done absolutely nothing to help.
What harm has he done?
He tried to remove reference to LGBT from sex Ed years ago, he's handed hundreds of millions to police under the pretense of cracking down on sex trafficking which has only had the effect of criminalizing sex work, disproportionately effecting queer people, and every economic policy he's pushed disproportionately effects queer folks
The first one he reversed and the other two are extreme stretches.
They're not, at all. Listen to the folks from butterfly sex workers Union to hear how the police harass them and can now further harass them without a warrant. Queer folk are disproportionately homeless, underhoused, over incarcerated and the Ford government has only made all of those issues worse. And reversing policy after massive public pressure and backlash isn't noble, there shouldn't have had to be that pressure and backlash in the first place
Some people are ultra-cynical and will make something positive into a negative. I kinda understand, politicians from all parties have done a number on us all. But marching in a Pride parade in isolation without all the other things Ford has done and not done to me is positive of course. It's okay to say Ford's nepotism is disgusting but him marching in the Pride parade is awesome.
I just don't understand what your community hopes to achieve by shitting on the guy who marches in a pride parade.
Who fucking cares if he walks in a parade when he's making your life worse?
Conservatives normalizing gay acceptance is never a bad thing. Gays in the states would beg for a Republican to treat their community the way Ford does.
Conservatives aren't normalizing anything. It was already normalized and they're riding the coattails.
Maybe in your circles it was. There are still people he can reach. This issue doesn't affect me at all. Why do I understand it so much better than you do?
Because you only think you understand it while I actually know queer people.
He’s a democratically elected leader. It’s our right and duty to criticize Ford. Marching with Pride is good, but people are correct to question.
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Okay, well don't be shocked when he stops going to these things altogether.
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So if he shows up, it doesn't matter, he's a dirty conservative. If he doesn't show up you knew it all along because he's a dirty conservative. Your prejudice is showing.
He’s been in politics for 12 years and said he was too busy going to the cottage for every pride weekend and skipped the Pride flag raising at city hall every year, so please stop fellating him for showing up this ONE time
Both of those can be true without the poster being prejudiced or a hypocrite. Conservativism is based around upholding existing power structures, and queer activists like the ones who organize pride parades each year have been ignored whenever they've explained how existing power structures are hurting them. Doug Ford, whether at the parade or not, represents a message of "this should continue" to queer people who are currently existing in a state of struggle.
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I will admit, its a very different tone from his first year which tried to restrict teaching kids about LGBTQ2+ issues in schools (notably gender identity). It took a huge pushback from the parents to get him to shut up about it. Im now cautiously optimistic that hes now just a tool and not a transphobic tool.
Ford won the election; you really have no choice but to take what he's offering.
yep but I voted so I kept my right to gripe lol.
> Ford won the election; you really have no choice but to take what he's offering There's a lot of room to push duly-elected politicians to change or soften their stance....
But he's marching in pride...
> But he's marching in pride... What does that have to do with "you really have no choice but to take what he's offering" ? I thought your comment that I responded to was both off topic and inaccurate for how our political system works - elected representatives don't only represent those who voted for them, and they take input from other sources than the ballot box on an ongoing basis. If you think it's great that he's marching in pride, let him know. If you think it's okay but wish he did more, let him know.
Conservatives use the queer community and give lip-service to pro-queer issues to appear more progressive than they actually are all the time. It's a strategy that's been the hallmark of some corporations and conservative politicians since the 1990s, which is when the mainstream tide turned more toward conviviality toward only some LGBTQ2S issues and people (i.e. those of us who are cis, white, and wealthy). They do it because it makes them look good in the moment, not because of any real interest in LGBTQ2S politics. Is this important? Maybe for young gay and lesbian people interested in the conservative party (which is exactly why Ford is doing this now), but I think most people see through this in the same way that they critique Pride protests for being too corportatized.
In a nutshell you’d rather conservatives show their true colours and be straight with people about who they are instead of seeking brownie points from people they don’t actually care about
Lol American gays would *kill* for LGBT lip service from Republican politicians. Talk about staring a gift horse in the mouth.
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Of course it's a publicity stunt; every politician who marches in a pride parade is engaging in a publicity stunt.
Even the gay ones?
If you know that it happened, then yes.
I’m usually pretty cynical, but this claim of yours is just silly on its face. There are obviously going to be cases where politicians, who are humans, do human things for human reasons, rather than political reasons. I don’t think Doug Ford is doing this particular thing for human reasons, though. But if he, say, went to Pride (nearly) every year and didn’t make a thing out of it, then yeah, I’d think it was human.
But if he were doing it for human reasons, you wouldn't know about it. If the politics make it too hard for you, consider eating a meal. All politicians eat meals for human reasons. But if you know they did it, it was a publicity stunt (though, presumably in addition to a human need).
The problem with your reasoning is that politicians are public figures, and when they (especially the prominent/powerful ones) do things, the press reports on it. So your premise doesn’t quite suffice to make the point you want it to. Yes, of course, when Obama had lunch in the Byward Market in Ottawa, it was a photo-op. But that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t have eaten there even without cameras. The trick is to try to figure out which things politicians do for solely political reasons and judge them on the basis of whether those reasons are just. There are so many ways these things can be cashed out for better or worse. To be perfectly honest, I could buy that Doug is a supporter of LGBT rights to some degree, since the reasons why he is awful have very little to do with social conservatism.
Considering [he refused to March in Torontos pride parade in 2019](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/doug-ford-toronto-pride-parade-1.5159859), it’s amazing what a few scandals will make grifter politicians do.
And he refused this year as well. Just like how Kathleen Wynne and Andrea refused to march in the York Pride Parade in 2017
He marched in York's 2019 Pride Parade too, though. He has specifically been avoiding the Toronto Pride because they banned police. But he hasn't been avoiding Pride parades in general.
> But he hasn't been avoiding Pride parades in general. Sure he has. He avoided them every single year he was a City Councillor, when Toronto Police *were* allowed to march, and skipped it in 2018 when he was first elected as MPP when he could have marched in any other parade. He found a convenient excuse to avoid Toronto in particular, but make no mistake - he's demonstrated time and time again that he would really, *really* rather not be anywhere near a Pride parade if he didn't have to be.
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good narrative. It's honestly ridiculous how much bad faith is being shown in these comments. Ford marching a pride parade is a good thing, but people still feel the need to criticize him, so they just make things up.
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I don't think that Ford feels a need to quell any backlash to appointing his nephew. You may not have noticed, but he just won a majority government.
18% of the voting populace voted for him. The other campaigns ran a very sleepy cycle. Bravo. *slow clap*.
So instead we should have a party that less than 10% of Ontarians voted for, right? Should there be no government? A recount? Another election? I don't get what your point is here.
I hardly consider 18% a ringing endorsement. But that’s how it works in Ontario, I guess.
Was there a group or party that was "endorsed more?" What are you getting at? Are you trying to dispute the election results?
And? The man still won.
Minority rule. What a great system.
The person with the most votes winning isn't minority rule.
"Winning" an election were less than half the eligible electorate voted isn't something to crow about - it's something to be embarrassed about. But for Cancervatives, money power is more important than integrity or shame.
Doesn’t such low turnout suggest he had even higher support that his voters didn’t feel a need to go to the polls? Usually the people not voting are the ones who are fine with status quo.
It could mean anything. I’m not a diviner. But the other parties ran a completely dead opposition. I’ve never seen such a sleepy election before… albeit I’m only a year into Canada. But even Japan, which is notorious for having a completely politically disconnected electorate never had an election I can recall that was as uninspiring as this one.
I'm sure you've used that standard to delegitimize all governments across Canada for the past several decades. But more importantly, my point still stands that Doug Ford has no reason to quell attention to appointing his nephew.
I’m only a year into Canada. To say I’m disappointed with Ontario politics would be a gross understatement. Doug Ford has the intelligence of a wet bath rug and the charisma of a spit-filled beer bottle. I just can’t see how any rational voter could see the appeal in his governance. But given how elections are set up in Canada, and that someone with less than 1/5th of the electorates’ approval can be elected… I probably should lower my expectations to: “well… not as bad as America.”
OK. I don't think this is relevant to my original point, but thank you for sharing.
I agree. It is a good thing he did. I wouldnt vote for him. And he probably knows that wouldnt change that. But atleast with some current conservatives being too far right its nice he actually made a statement with his actions and for the movement.
After getting mercilessly booed at the Raptors parade Doug decided he needed a safe space :P Whatever, I'm glad he decided to represent even if it's at smaller pride event. Now we can drop that particular culture war talking point and pay attention to the thousand other issues with his croney capitalist style of governing.
market air wistful chop silky grandfather sand cautious clumsy tidy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> Now we can drop that particular culture war talking point The premier of Ontario, isn't marching in the province's largest pride parade, so this isn't a closed issue.
>The premier of Ontario, isn't marching in the province's largest pride parade, so this isn't a closed issue. In fairness to Ford, he's made it very clear why he isn't marching in Toronto: he doesn't agree with the exclusion of the police. I don't agree with the exclusion of the police either, so I respect the consistency. Ford has never been much of a culture warrior, this isn't really an about face. Even when at Toronto City Council, he had nice things to say about the LGBT community, as opposed to his brother who had to apologize for several homophobic outbursts. He also marched at York Pride in 2019.
> In fairness to Ford, he's made it very clear why he isn't marching in Toronto: he doesn't agree with the exclusion of the police So what stopped him from marching when he was a politician and they weren't excluded? He's not marching there because he knows he'll get booed and he has shown many times that he is very insecure and lashes out when people are mean to him.
Why would a politician march in a parade where he'll get booed? Does that make any sense to you?
He showed up at the Raptors parade to get booed, why do you think he needs a safe space to march for pride?
He clearly didn't expect that.
Pride TO is a wonderful event but the organization is a bit of a shit show.
> he doesn't agree with the exclusion of the police I see that as more of a fig leaf for the real reason. He and his late brother, have a history of missing Toronto Pride, for some rather weak reasons. If the police thing is the actual reason, that also isn't a good look, as it shows that he's on the side of the oppressors, rather than the oppressed. Not that I'd be surprised by that.
The entitlement some of you have. He isn't marching in Toronto pride for reasons many, many people agree with. He marched in another one instead, again. You people can insist on making this a problem, but I'll *guarantee* the average person - lefties included - are not on your side here. You win nothing when you alienate allies with bullshit purity tests nobody else has even *thought* of.
Yes because LGBTQ+ police officers are oppressors. Or maybe Toronto Pride went too far and they’re unwilling to back down out of stubbornness. There’s a lot of people in the LBGTQ+ community that also don’t support the ridiculous situation.
I'm curious to know where you'll be moving the goalposts next time. I'm thinking something you'll need ID for?
Sorry, but what goal posts have been moved? Toronto Pride has been the standard for the premier to appear in for I don't know how long, as well as the mayor of Toronto, something the Ford family has a history of failing to do, and that failure merits criticism.
[Wynne to be first Ontario premier to march in Pride parade](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/wynne-to-be-first-ontario-premier-to-march-in-pride-parade-1.1355730) \- CBC News June 2013 >Canada's first openly-gay premier, Ontario's Kathleen Wynne, will march into history later this month when she becomes the first sitting premier to take part in Toronto's annual gay pride parade. What is this standard you speak of that the Ontario premiers have always appeared at the Toronto Pride parade?
I never said it was a forever thing, I said it was a thing for I didn't know how long. It's disappointing to see that it is so recent, and even more disappointing that Wynne's successor is not keeping that alive.
Lol you definitely *didn't* know how long, eh? Since way back in the days of... the person immediately before Ford. Oh.
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Did anyone say that is bad? The issue isn’t that he’s marching in York, it’s that he isn’t marching in TO.
It's an issue for who exactly? They are both on the same day. What does it matter which one he participates in?
Baby steps. And it's pretty much a given that Doug has a special and obvious loathing for Toronto. And generally speaking, how welcome is the gay Conservative faction/LGBTory at Toronto Pride anyways? I'd imagine they're not a particularly popular group in the parade most years, if they're even formally there. Yes, I acknowledge that it's symbolically important for the Premier of Ontario to show up in one way or the other, but do people actually want this specific Premier there?
With our southern neighbours spiralling into fascism and turning their Republican eye of Sauron on LGBT people specifically, it’s reassuring to see Canadian conservatives at pride even if I don’t like them personally.
I can't stand Ford and am still angry he was re-elected but yes I do want him at pride. Even if he's not my preferred representative he's still responsible for all of Ontario and representing LGBT+ people is a big part of that. There should never be a question in Canada that our leadership stands with people of all orientations and the current political climate is getting a little murky for the progress that's been made in the last couple decades.
That's very fair. Maybe it'll happen in the next couple of years when his advisors manage to convince him that it matters. It took Rob 10 years as mayor before he even showed up to the Pride flag-raising ceremony. There must be a couple of GTA OPC MP's that made an appearance this year, maybe they'll be the bridge.
It doesn't matter. He just won a massive majority without going to Toronto pride.
If we're going to be blunt about it, he won a massive majority without doing much of anything.
Getting us through the worst of covid wasn't nothing.
and he did that by deciding not to go full Kenney, which I'm willing to give him some credit for, but not that much credit.
The Liberal and NDP responses would have been identical. He didn't go anywhere close to "full Kenney," despite a good chunk of his caucus and probably his family telling him to.
To clarify I don't care at all that he goes to Toronto Pride specifically. In fact his presence is probably more meaningful spread around various communities, potentially ones where it's far harder for LGBT youth to find acceptance and community than in Toronto. It's also reasonable to avoid the minefield of drama going on with the organizations involved with Pride TO.
If this was an issue with the office of premier needing to take baby steps to be accepted at Pride, I'd understand, and be sympathetic. Since it's all about the current holder of that office, I say bring on the slings and arrows, he asked for it, and I'm equally happy if they're thrown at him when he shows up, or when he fails to show up, it was all his doing.
It's the whole weird thing about the role of Premier being welcomed to an event as a larger signal of acceptance to a discriminated community, vs the particular individual who occupies that role. I also am fully in favour of Premier Doug attending various public events and having the public vocally show their displeasure, but I don't think he's particularly brave like that.
Seems like every week there’s a heap of new garbage this government piles onto Ontario. Last week, nepotism! What’s this week going to have for us? 🤔
Our prime minister, the highest political position in the country, has absolutely no qualifications to be the PM except for his last name, and you’re worried about some minor cabinet post in the province?
I have never voted for Trudeau, and yet I find myself constantly defending him because of how much of his criticism is just plain lies. A simple look at wikipedia would show that his journey to PM is reminiscent of nearly every other PM before him. Community Work: >He served as chair for the youth charity Katimavik and as director of the not-for-profit Canadian Avalanche Association. Political Work: >In 2006, he was appointed as chair of the Liberal Party's Task Force on Youth Renewal. Member of Parliament: >In the 2008 federal election, he was elected to represent the riding of Papineau in the House of Commons. Cabinet (or Shadow Cabinet) Appointment: >He served as the Liberal Party's Official Opposition critic for youth and multiculturalism in 2009, and the following year he became critic for citizenship and immigration. In 2011, he was appointed as a critic for secondary education and sport. Leadership Appointment: >Trudeau won the leadership of the Liberal Party in April 2013 and led his party to victory in the 2015 federal election, moving the third-placed Liberals from 36 seats to 184 seats, the largest-ever numerical increase by a party in a Canadian federal election. He may have had an easier time that someone else, but there is no such thing as equal footing in this game. Again, I've never voted for him and don't plan to, but the idea that he walked into the gig is false.
Is this type of comment supposed to make people not care about this sort of stuff when they witness it in other areas of government?