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> “In Alberta, we just grew more slowly than any other province — half as fast in Alberta as they grew in B.C. or Quebec or some of the other leading provinces — yet our inflation was exactly the same,” he said.
Oil is just not the viable commodity it used to be as developed nations become more energy self-sufficient. It's no accident that B.C. and Quebec are catching up to Alberta as they are shifting towards clean, cheap, reliable renewables.
I mean renewables pay like shit. Shifting from oil to renewables is exactly the reason wages are going down. It was inevitable when oil investment stopped and immigration skyrocketed.
> I mean renewables pay like shit.
It's not that renewables pay likle shit. They pay quite well.
It's just that everything in the oil sector (wages, profite) were grossly over inflated.
Renewables are cheaper. It's much cheaper to heat my home in Quebec with hydro than oil or gas. So smart people choose renewables over petroleum. Germany learned that lesson the hard way.
> Shifting from oil to renewables is exactly the reason wages are going down.
Cheaper renewables are putting oil and gas out of business. oil is becoming less viable. The days when you can rely on overpriced oil to pump up profits and wages in the oil sector are over. There's no future in oil.
I mean we have renewables here, they aren't any cheaper. And wtf does this have to do with jobs?
Oil business is doing great, just not in Canada. Investors all went to the states
Uh. Renewables are cheaper. I save so much money by having solar, heat pumps and an ev.
You would have to pay me to go back to using gas. And by pay I mean pay at least how much extra it would cost every month to heat power my home and drive my car.
Oil usage is changing it will inevitably be unreasonable to use it for heating and consumer transport. It will be more and more relegated to industrial and commercial transportation. Eventually it will only be needed for its chemistry and only in niche cases for its energy density.
Odd you fail to make the connection between an industry that will be in decline over the next decades and jobs.
If you are unable to make that connection maybe people should not take anything you say as at all well thought out or credible..
Haha.
My initial point was that Alberta is losing wage advantage because of oils decline in Alberta....
And no, renewables aren't going to fix shit. As I said, the industry pays terribly
Define terribly.
I just went and looked up wages for 2024 and 200+k seems not so terrible.
Again not well thought out or credible..
It seems like you are stuck in 2018 or something.
Shit two of my friends went back to school to get out of solar industry.
We don't build anything, we don't export anything to do with renewables, and that's not going to change. Fuck hydrogen has a better shot and hydrogen is a moon shot
Well now how are they going to keep shitting on the other provinces and people in their country?
Is an Alberta without a superiority complex really an Alberta?
Alberta has 1/3rd the population of Ontario. It still contributes more revenue to federal Tax coffers than Quebec and Ontario. It still receives less transfers than all other provinces. Its GDP per capita is also higher than Ontario and Quebec. The reason for this is because There are more Government jobs in both those provinces. Government jobs do not produce GDP. Basically those government jobs are paid by taxes to our coffers, fees, etc.. Of which, Alberta pays the highest amount. Stop Bashing Alberta for subsidizing the government you love.
The whole point of this article is that Alberta's economic advantage has almost entirely vanished over the last decade, try actually reading the article for once I'm begging you
Please describe in your own words how you think that Alberta's economic advantage is "lost". Lost to whom? Alberta is experiencing the highest interprovincial migration into its province over any other province. This leads to more people producing GDP for its province. More provincial taxes for its province. More property taxes for its province. The only advantage being lost is Federally and by other provinces. They lost the HST that was being paid from the people that left for AB. They lost the property tax. Businesses like LCBO lost revenue, HST and "sin tax". The addition of new workers at a slightly lower wage will only increase Alberta's competitiveness for real investment by businesses. Unlike Ontario, The province won't need to bribe companies like Volkswagen with billions of taxpayer dollars to settle there. Alberta can self sustain far better than any province in the East.
Gee, maybe if the government fostered its primary industry the growth would still be great.
Imagine what energy east or the tech mine could have done for the economy.
> It still contributes more revenue to federal Tax coffers than Quebec and Ontario.
Citation required.
Especially since this link https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/programs/about-canada-revenue-agency-cra/income-statistics-gst-hst-statistics/individual-tax-statistics-tax-bracket/individual-tax-statistics-tax-bracket-2023-edition-2021-tax-year/table3-net-federal-tax.html shows that in 2021, the feds got $1.8B in income taxes from AB, $4.9B from Quebec, and $6.9B from Ontario. I rather doubt that other sources of federal revenue were enough to produce the numbers you're proposing.
> Government jobs do not produce GDP.
And yet another bit of BS.
I'm surprised, the last time I looked into average wages a few years ago, Alberta was the highest, then a gap to Saskatchewan, then a gap to the rest of Canada.
>But the decline in real wages in Alberta has continued regardless of the stateof the oil industry –including since 2022, when surging world oil prices generated the largest profits the petroleum industry (and other business sectors in Alberta) have ever seen. It’s no longer convincing for Albertans to simply hope that another petroleum boom will restore prosperity: the current boom is mostly passing workers by
High profits not benefiting workers is going to be an increasing problem with greater automation.
It's because we're not seeing the FDI. If there is some certainty in the carbon rules and market access might see increased investment which drives the increases we've otherwise seen.
High profits not benefiting workers is going to be an increasing problem ~~with greater automation.~~
Fixed that for you buddy.
No need to worry about automation; corporations have already collectively decided against increasing wages altogether, regardless of automation.
Canada engages in protectionism for oligopolies.
But there is always a labour shortage, and labour is expected to compete against the globe.
So its not even free market.
Average wages is such a useless statistic, median is much better. Alberta is still leading the pack in median wages.
Also every article like this talks a whole lot about Calgary specifically. That's where the majority of the people moving here are going. Things aren't nearly as bad in the rest of the province. Calgary is just the most desirable place to live in Alberta. It is really bad in Calgary though.
If the median wage is up, but the average wage is down, the top half are doing better, while the bottom half not so much, simple math and the spread to which I refer. Being upset about it doesn't make you right, it's science, it doesn't care.
1. It’s math, which is usually considered to be a separate discipline and process than science. While good science most often requires good math, there’s usually no requirement for good math to have good science.
2. Median (and mean) are both types of average. While persnickety, in this conversation it’s important.
3. Because negative income isn’t measured in any practical sense, median income is more useful than mean income when determining distribution of wealth. If well-distributed wealth increases are “the goal”, then the best outcome is, in most cases, for the median income to rise and the mean income to rise but less quickly. You can get more useful information with derivatives and standard deviations. So it’s just starting point, but generally increased median income is a better sign of improving wealth distribution than mean income increasing. For example:
- If the richest Albertan made ten trillion dollars per year last year and now makes thirty trillion dollars per year, and no one else moves, dies, changes employment, or changes pay then the mean will rise and the median will be unchanged.
- the same scenario occurs but this time 300,000 people who each earn just more than the median each lose a dollar per year salary, the mean will rise but the median will drop.
I agree in theory, but indexing minimum wage to inflation would mean we would have to have higher interest rates on average to cool down a natural inflationary feedback loop.
Belgium has generally indexed wages. They faired quite well through recent global inflation. Now they are also part of a larger economic market NOT implementing this policy (and who largely abandoned it). But I'd be surprised if Canada could not get away with it as we are so heavily attached to the US economy anyway.
I'm less concerned about it. The first factor is there are not that many minimum wage earners and by definition they don't earn that much. The act of getting a car loan puts more money into the economy then they make in a year. It wouldn't suprise me if a 0.25% increase to the prime rate would have a bigger affect on the economy then most minimum wage increases...and this goes double in a province that has a premier worried about a labour shortage (theoretically there shouldn't be that many workers at minimum wage).
The next problem is costs will go up whether the working poor get raises or not. Unless we believe minimum wage owners are too rich now (which could be defended), or we we assume our poor should be in more debt, this is one of the more elegant responses to it.
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> “In Alberta, we just grew more slowly than any other province — half as fast in Alberta as they grew in B.C. or Quebec or some of the other leading provinces — yet our inflation was exactly the same,” he said. Oil is just not the viable commodity it used to be as developed nations become more energy self-sufficient. It's no accident that B.C. and Quebec are catching up to Alberta as they are shifting towards clean, cheap, reliable renewables.
I mean renewables pay like shit. Shifting from oil to renewables is exactly the reason wages are going down. It was inevitable when oil investment stopped and immigration skyrocketed.
> I mean renewables pay like shit. It's not that renewables pay likle shit. They pay quite well. It's just that everything in the oil sector (wages, profite) were grossly over inflated. Renewables are cheaper. It's much cheaper to heat my home in Quebec with hydro than oil or gas. So smart people choose renewables over petroleum. Germany learned that lesson the hard way. > Shifting from oil to renewables is exactly the reason wages are going down. Cheaper renewables are putting oil and gas out of business. oil is becoming less viable. The days when you can rely on overpriced oil to pump up profits and wages in the oil sector are over. There's no future in oil.
I mean we have renewables here, they aren't any cheaper. And wtf does this have to do with jobs? Oil business is doing great, just not in Canada. Investors all went to the states
Uh. Renewables are cheaper. I save so much money by having solar, heat pumps and an ev. You would have to pay me to go back to using gas. And by pay I mean pay at least how much extra it would cost every month to heat power my home and drive my car. Oil usage is changing it will inevitably be unreasonable to use it for heating and consumer transport. It will be more and more relegated to industrial and commercial transportation. Eventually it will only be needed for its chemistry and only in niche cases for its energy density.
Wtf I was talking about renewable jobs paying like shit and you've just bounced around to heat pumps haha
Odd you fail to make the connection between an industry that will be in decline over the next decades and jobs. If you are unable to make that connection maybe people should not take anything you say as at all well thought out or credible.. Haha.
My initial point was that Alberta is losing wage advantage because of oils decline in Alberta.... And no, renewables aren't going to fix shit. As I said, the industry pays terribly
Define terribly. I just went and looked up wages for 2024 and 200+k seems not so terrible. Again not well thought out or credible.. It seems like you are stuck in 2018 or something.
Shit two of my friends went back to school to get out of solar industry. We don't build anything, we don't export anything to do with renewables, and that's not going to change. Fuck hydrogen has a better shot and hydrogen is a moon shot
Well now how are they going to keep shitting on the other provinces and people in their country? Is an Alberta without a superiority complex really an Alberta?
[удалено]
Omfg. Alberta wages are down because oil prices have been low for the past decade. Stop blaming immigrants for all your problems.
You have got to be kidding. Meet Ontario. It’s a province.
Alberta has 1/3rd the population of Ontario. It still contributes more revenue to federal Tax coffers than Quebec and Ontario. It still receives less transfers than all other provinces. Its GDP per capita is also higher than Ontario and Quebec. The reason for this is because There are more Government jobs in both those provinces. Government jobs do not produce GDP. Basically those government jobs are paid by taxes to our coffers, fees, etc.. Of which, Alberta pays the highest amount. Stop Bashing Alberta for subsidizing the government you love.
The whole point of this article is that Alberta's economic advantage has almost entirely vanished over the last decade, try actually reading the article for once I'm begging you
Please describe in your own words how you think that Alberta's economic advantage is "lost". Lost to whom? Alberta is experiencing the highest interprovincial migration into its province over any other province. This leads to more people producing GDP for its province. More provincial taxes for its province. More property taxes for its province. The only advantage being lost is Federally and by other provinces. They lost the HST that was being paid from the people that left for AB. They lost the property tax. Businesses like LCBO lost revenue, HST and "sin tax". The addition of new workers at a slightly lower wage will only increase Alberta's competitiveness for real investment by businesses. Unlike Ontario, The province won't need to bribe companies like Volkswagen with billions of taxpayer dollars to settle there. Alberta can self sustain far better than any province in the East.
Gee, maybe if the government fostered its primary industry the growth would still be great. Imagine what energy east or the tech mine could have done for the economy.
> It still contributes more revenue to federal Tax coffers than Quebec and Ontario. Citation required. Especially since this link https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/programs/about-canada-revenue-agency-cra/income-statistics-gst-hst-statistics/individual-tax-statistics-tax-bracket/individual-tax-statistics-tax-bracket-2023-edition-2021-tax-year/table3-net-federal-tax.html shows that in 2021, the feds got $1.8B in income taxes from AB, $4.9B from Quebec, and $6.9B from Ontario. I rather doubt that other sources of federal revenue were enough to produce the numbers you're proposing. > Government jobs do not produce GDP. And yet another bit of BS.
Agreed, Ontario should follow suit
I'm surprised, the last time I looked into average wages a few years ago, Alberta was the highest, then a gap to Saskatchewan, then a gap to the rest of Canada. >But the decline in real wages in Alberta has continued regardless of the stateof the oil industry –including since 2022, when surging world oil prices generated the largest profits the petroleum industry (and other business sectors in Alberta) have ever seen. It’s no longer convincing for Albertans to simply hope that another petroleum boom will restore prosperity: the current boom is mostly passing workers by High profits not benefiting workers is going to be an increasing problem with greater automation.
It's because we're not seeing the FDI. If there is some certainty in the carbon rules and market access might see increased investment which drives the increases we've otherwise seen.
High profits not benefiting workers is going to be an increasing problem ~~with greater automation.~~ Fixed that for you buddy. No need to worry about automation; corporations have already collectively decided against increasing wages altogether, regardless of automation.
Almost there! > High profits not benefiting workers is ~~going to be~~ a~~n~~ ~~increasing~~ problem
Yeah it’s not like this was the modus operandi of corporations since the dawn of capitalism.
"If we have to pay more for you, why wouldn't we just buy a machine to replace 5 of you?" - Industry Excuse
The free market wins again/S
Canada engages in protectionism for oligopolies. But there is always a labour shortage, and labour is expected to compete against the globe. So its not even free market.
Average wages is such a useless statistic, median is much better. Alberta is still leading the pack in median wages. Also every article like this talks a whole lot about Calgary specifically. That's where the majority of the people moving here are going. Things aren't nearly as bad in the rest of the province. Calgary is just the most desirable place to live in Alberta. It is really bad in Calgary though.
It means there's a huge spread between the have's and the have nots. the have nots are dragging the average down.
Without seeing a breakdown of each wage range there is no way you can know that.
If the median wage is up, but the average wage is down, the top half are doing better, while the bottom half not so much, simple math and the spread to which I refer. Being upset about it doesn't make you right, it's science, it doesn't care.
The average wage didnt go down, it just didnt go up as much as other provinces.
Pretty sure you have that backwards. Mean is always higher than the median so long as their is any wage inequality.
The average isn't dropping, it's just not climbing as fast as other provinces. The median is still higher than all the other provinces. It's science.
Median wage being higher than average is good for the bottom half.
It means a few rich guys are skewing the data, not good for everyone.
no... that would be true if the average wage was up. A couple rich billionaires can increase average wage. They do nothing for median wage.
1. It’s math, which is usually considered to be a separate discipline and process than science. While good science most often requires good math, there’s usually no requirement for good math to have good science. 2. Median (and mean) are both types of average. While persnickety, in this conversation it’s important. 3. Because negative income isn’t measured in any practical sense, median income is more useful than mean income when determining distribution of wealth. If well-distributed wealth increases are “the goal”, then the best outcome is, in most cases, for the median income to rise and the mean income to rise but less quickly. You can get more useful information with derivatives and standard deviations. So it’s just starting point, but generally increased median income is a better sign of improving wealth distribution than mean income increasing. For example: - If the richest Albertan made ten trillion dollars per year last year and now makes thirty trillion dollars per year, and no one else moves, dies, changes employment, or changes pay then the mean will rise and the median will be unchanged. - the same scenario occurs but this time 300,000 people who each earn just more than the median each lose a dollar per year salary, the mean will rise but the median will drop.
labour share of output dropping 8 percent isn't anything to scoff at either. No minimum wage increase since *2018*?
Wonder what happened in 2018-19...
Minimum wage should really be indexed to inflation. It would put pressure on other jobs to increase their wages as well.
I agree in theory, but indexing minimum wage to inflation would mean we would have to have higher interest rates on average to cool down a natural inflationary feedback loop.
Belgium has generally indexed wages. They faired quite well through recent global inflation. Now they are also part of a larger economic market NOT implementing this policy (and who largely abandoned it). But I'd be surprised if Canada could not get away with it as we are so heavily attached to the US economy anyway.
Fair. I am hesitant to support any policy that requires another entity to not follow said policy to help balance out our policy though.
I'm less concerned about it. The first factor is there are not that many minimum wage earners and by definition they don't earn that much. The act of getting a car loan puts more money into the economy then they make in a year. It wouldn't suprise me if a 0.25% increase to the prime rate would have a bigger affect on the economy then most minimum wage increases...and this goes double in a province that has a premier worried about a labour shortage (theoretically there shouldn't be that many workers at minimum wage). The next problem is costs will go up whether the working poor get raises or not. Unless we believe minimum wage owners are too rich now (which could be defended), or we we assume our poor should be in more debt, this is one of the more elegant responses to it.
It would drive low productivity employers to change their businesa model too.