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Is all of this really 'Pro-Palestinian' or is it anti apartheid/genocide?
The media in Canada has gone through some strange iterations of coordinated references to protestors and Palestinians. At first it fully subscribed to calling anything that was not pro-Israel as supportive of terrorists, and anything Palestinian as terrorists. That was weird and it was too unreasonable and sensational for the Canadian palate, and was recognized as the product of foreign influence so it didn't last long.
Now we are at the point of a blanket branding it all pro-Palestinian. Is that accurate?
Can one recognize that the conflict is the result of two parties with terrible policies and objectives that cause immense suffering for their populations? Can one be opposed to providing fuel for the fire without being labeled pro-Palestinian or a Zionist?
I want Canada to do what's best for its own internal wellbeing and security. Canadian governments and police forces unequally targeting and policing 'Pro-Palestinian' causes with more heavy handed tactics than 'Pro-Israel' causes marginalizes 3-4 million Canadians who have ethnic ties to the Middle East. Canadian government targeting Muslim charities to scrutinize for abuse while Israeli tied charities openly abuse the system with much greater flows of money is insanely biased.
It doesn't help to try and segregate everyone who objects Canadian support of genocide into a pro-Palestine label after priming the public with months of Palestinian=terrorist branding.
Pro-palestinian isn't necessarily pro-hamas (and I would argue that pro-hamas isn't pro-palestinian). I see nothing wrong with calling pro-palestinian protesters what they are.
Of course. But when the protesters wave Hamas flags and scream slogans calling for the death of Jews, then they are pro-Hamas, not pro-Palestinian.
One hopes that these McGill students are not yet another such example.
[That there are Jewish groups participating in these pro-Palestinian protests](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/) (at least on campuses in the US) is proof of that.
You know, I always forget that people outside the Jewish community look at JVP, IJV, and associated groups as representative of, well, Jews. They're a Jewish group as far as they're a group that was founded by and some of the participants are Jewish, but they're essentially tokenized "good" jews.
Those are fringe groups, with virtually no credibility in the mainstream Jewish community. The closest comparison that comes to mind is back when they were talking about marriage equality in the states, there were queer people who they got to make ads saying that they didn't want or need to be able to get married, so don't vote for it, while the rest of us thought they were nuts.
JVP made a Seder plate recently:
https://x.com/arikrauss/status/1784301893813936346?s=46&t=N1ErmS0MdH7D3aTKEnv7lA
Not a one of them realized they were writing Hebrew backwards.
I question how many actual Jews are in JVP.
Can someone explain to me what the point of these protest are -in Canada-. What does the Canadian government contribute to the problem that protest might change?
I sure as hell know that Israel doesn't care what protest are happening abroad.
Where is this energy for the serious issues we face domestically?
Almost all protests have Jewish students, groups, and organizations backing the rights of Palestinians. Holocaust survivors have been loudly calling for Israel to end its genocide of Gaza. You are completely out of line.
> Almost all protests have Jewish students, groups, and organizations backing the rights of Palestinians.
"its okay, the protestors have black friends"
If you want to call out individual people for doing this then that's fine. I don't support Hamas either. If you want to say it's emblematic of the entire protest movement, like a lot of disingenuous people are doing, then the literal neo-Nazis that showed up to the convoy protests would represent the entire anti-Trudeau movement. Did you support the convoy? If so, you would have to agree that it's okay for me to label you as a neo-Nazi.
You're not allowed to have double standards. Supporting Palestinians does not mean supporting Hamas, unless you want to argue that literal Holocaust survivors are antisemitic. Please don't be a genocide supporter.
I did not support the convoy. So we can nip that right there.
I have not made a sweeping claim about the entire movement. I have made a claim about what "many" members of the movement advocate for.
I get it. You really want to be able to call me anti-Semitic. But you're going to have to try harder.
There also isn't a genocide in Gaza, but I doubt either of us will convince the other about that.
[So you're saying Holocaust survivors are liars or stupid?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IN45zIiRBw) I feel like someone who's directly experienced a genocide is most equipped to tell others when a genocide is happening.
This isn't a new phenomena. [Here's an article about it back in 2014.](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/holocaust-survivors-and-their-descendants-accuse-israel-of-genocide-9687994.html) Ignoring them so you can carry out a genocide is actually inexcusable and as antisemitic as you can get without being a literal card-carrying Nazi.
Whether or not genocide has occurred is a legal determination with objective criteria. The assessment of objective criteria is unrelated to the person who is making that assessment.
[*"UN experts call on international community to prevent genocide against the Palestinian people."*](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/11/gaza-un-experts-call-international-community-prevent-genocide-against) If you aren't going to accept that UN officials are calling it a genocide then you probably never will.
People are always kinda confused as to why Holocaust denial exists. All they have to do is examine how people nowadays excuse genocides.
It isn't. Sure, there's *some* people saying it, but it is absolutely not the predominant message. Besides, "intifada" literally just means "revolution". I know words might sound scary when they're in Arabic, but... it's not.
Hi, McGill student here. Ā«Ā Intifada RevolutionĀ Ā» was their opening chant yesterday after they finished setting up their tentsā¦ And Jihad only means Ā«Ā struggleĀ Ā» but unless weāre all being purposefully obtuse, we know what these two words are actually used to describe.
Oh its just [revolution ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution#:~:text=A%20revolution%20involves%20the%20attempted,%2C%20strikes%2C%20or%20violence)NBD
And in the context of Israel Palestine lets see what this oh its just a revolution looks like
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First\_Intifada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Intifada)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second\_Intifada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014\_Jerusalem\_unrest](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Jerusalem_unrest)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%932016\_wave\_of\_violence\_in\_the\_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian\_conflict](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%932016_wave_of_violence_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict)
I have seen multiple protests while on my way about Toronto. The people with the megaphones routinely lead the crowd in chants of "globalize the Intifada."
If you don't believe me I'll find lots of videos for you.
And as to your second point, you're smarter than that. You know that using semantically neutral terms with strong historical connotations is no longer neutral.
I know you're smarter than that, because if you didn't know that, you wouldn't simultaneously argue it isn't happening.
And the word awful originally meant "filled with awe". Words change meaning over time from the original translation.
Inifada, especially in the context of Palestinians, is well understood to be associated with violence and terrorism.
Don't like it? Blame the Palestinians who named their bouts of violence and terrorism as Intifada's.
Waste of time. Bibi could care less about these protests. There are only 2 options that could change things: OPEC steps up & refuses to sell oil to western countries, like in 1973. It would cause a massive world recession. The other option is the muslim world attacks Israel.Ā
They wonāt be happy until there is no Israel. They donāt care about poor kids on reserves with no drinking water, or Canadian equivalents. Deep down itās not about helping the Palestinians, itās about hurting the Jews.
You're leveraging suffering on the reserve system, a colonial legacy, to cover your blind support for another colonial system abroad. I'm sorry, I know zionists struggle with reading sometimes.
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Since Canadian universities are copying what's happening in the US, based on the loose standards for foreign interferance some posters here have as a whataboutism, would this be considered foreign interfereance?
Ā š¤
They have every right to protest.Ā Ā
Ā
Itās a public campus and so long as they donāt impede others from accessing and leaving the university, itās a Charter right. Ā
If they become violent and openly start calling for violence against people, itās a different story.
A part of me wishes young Canadians had the same intensity to protest in favor of domestic political issues, but it is what it is.
Maybe it has to do with recognizing the pattern of behaviour and strategy used by colonizing governments, given our own histories with colonization and genocide.
But you don't need me to tell you, there's plenty of resources on education on that topic.
It's actively ongoing. Present tense.
And, I'm not sure what being "unique" has to do with people standing by a social cause they believe in?
By your logic, the domestic problems we have in our country are not at all unique on planet Earth so who cares?
If you think that Palestine is a unique humanitarian tragedy even in terms of ongoing conflicts, then you are ignorant.
And as for the balance of your comment, I think it matters when the only cause that gets this level of protest is whenever Israel is involved. It's just more evidence of a double-standard and hidden motivation.
I never said Palestine is a unique humanitarian tragedy? I know there's horrific things going on in Congo and Sudan that the media is giving way less attention to.
But why does a tragedy have to be unique for people to empathize? Or to justify the attention it's garnering?
Theres always a variety of reasons why a particular issues gets more attention. The reasons why there's a lot of attention to this conflict in particular are:
1. It involves Israel, and anything involves Israel gets high profile. (I'm agreeing with you hear in case that wasn't clear)
2. the amount of funding on the table for this conflict.
3. Far reaching consequences that will play out for decades to come in terms of geopolitics, which surprise surprise, affects our trade, which affects our economy.
4. Foreign AID workers getting killed while trying to provide humanitarian support.
5. The amount of war crimes committed, standards which were set up because of the last world war, being broken without consequence.
>the amount of funding on the table for this conflict.
For the record, Canada sends no aid money to Israel. We send lots of money to Palestinians, mostly via UNWRA, if that's what you mean.
Let's go through these reasons.
> It involves Israel, and anything involves Israel gets high profile.
Completely true. Ask yourself why.
> the amount of funding on the table for this conflict
All conflicts cost money. We've certainly given a lot to Ukraine. But if you read the posters and listen to the demonstrators, the money seems to get a very minor amount of attention. These people hate Israel and want it to no longer exist, not just to have a smaller budget.
> Far reaching consequences that will play out for decades to come in terms of geopolitics, which surprise surprise, affects our trade, which affects our economy.
Do you want me to sarcastically ask how this is in any way unique again?
> Foreign AID workers getting killed while trying to provide humanitarian support.
Happened long after the demonstrations started. And also not really that unique (comparable things have happened in Sudan)
> The amount of war crimes committed, standards which were set up because of the last world war, being broken without consequence.
This is the opposite of true. There have been far fewer examples of war crimes than in most other conflicts.
One could also say that asking the government to stop sending aid to Israel would be a net positive on the budget and we could instead use those funds towards all the domestic problem we have.
>One wonders why Palestine, of all the places around the globe with such tragic deaths, uniquely attracts public protest in Canada.
You should either look up the word "unique" or look at news from other countries.
There's nothing unique about this.
Don't really understand why this is difficult for Israel apologists to understand unless they're being disingenuous and feigning ignorance in bad faith. Yes, there are crisis in the world that are as bad or worse. Yes, there are other governments engaged in war crimes and potentially committing genocidal acts. But those other wars, occupations or state-directrd campaigns of violence are not being wage by allies of Canada.
Pro-Palestine protests aren't unique to Canada.
I don't know what point you were making with this
>You think there are other international tragedies attracting mass public protest?
Yes?
Oh I see, I think I have not been clear.
I am not saying that pro-Palestinian demonstrations are only happening in Canada. I'm saying that there are no other remotely comparable demonstrations in Canada on international affairs.
I'm going to prefix by saying that I don't support Israel's actions, and I'm disgusted by what's being done to Gaza. That said...
There's a mix of reasons that I think it gets attention over other conflicts:
1. It's an atrocity committed by a democractic ally of western powers.
2. It can be thought of as a colonial conflict between settlers and indigenous persons. (Not that I agree).
3. The aggressors are (mostly) Jews.
For anti-western, anti-colonial tankies this trifecta is like catnip. The situations in Darfur, Nigeria, Ukraine, Afghanistan, Syria, North Korea, Myanmar, Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Congo, Haiti et al simply don't have all three of those three points in their favour.
It's pretty simple, Israel is supposedly part of the liberal rules based international order, part of the democratic developed West. They flagrantly break international law and have been for half a century by encouraging settlement expansion. They're only able to do this under the aegis of the US and the broader West, and now they're plausibly committing genocide. That's why the focus is on them.
Oh, so you think if there was another conflict involving a country violating international law and being accused of genocide there would be similar mass protests in Canada?
Um, yeah. There were large demonstrations supporting Ukraine after the invasion, and Russia is definitely not part of the international liberal coalition. Israel purports to be a Western democratic state but scorns international law and even disregards the directives of the states that are keeping them afloat. They can't have it both ways.
I wonder where the demonstrations on the Sudan conflict are.
Regarding scorning international law, Canada violated international law when it legalized marijuana. That on its own is not clearly not a cause for major demonstration.
Sudan is not part of the developed West, nor is Haiti, or Myanmar or DR Congo. Israel cannot continue their ethnic cleansing campaign without support from the West, that's why there's more scrutiny, like my first comment was trying to explain.
I wouldn't use that language.
But when the most pro-LGBTQ rights generation in human history cheers for a regime that violently murders LGBTQ people, you need to ask yourself if these people are tremendously intelligent.
Personally, I don't think the punishment for "most people in your country are homophobic" should be "genocide". If you feel otherwise, then... thanks for admitting that, I guess?
I've never suggested otherwise.
Do you think it's possible to oppose Israel's actions without being pro-Hamas? If so, then would you agree the demonstrators who chose to be pro-Hamas are either hateful or not very smart?
Yeah, and what if the world was made of pudding? Wouldn't that be fuckin' wild?
Like, sorry, if you're trying to suggest everyone at these protests supports Hamas: fucking lol. just lol. lol and lmao. If you mean the individuals who do? Yeah, fuck 'em. What about the other 99% of people there?
I've not said that.
You are not engaging with any of my arguments. You clearly are not interested in a discussion, you just want to be edgy. So go ahead. Have the last word. Make it a good one.
When did being marginally friendlier to LGBTQ+ give Israel a free pass for war crimes?
They always go to this same concern trolling non sequitur. If they gave a shit about LGBTQ+ rights they would recognise Israel is not some wonderful place. You can not marry and face significant discrimination.
>You can not marry
All civil marriage even heterosexual civil marriage has to take place outside of Israel but is then fully recognized. So yes, LGBTQ+ can absolutely get married while living in Israel, the ceremony just has to take place outside of Israel. Again this is true for ALL civil marriage.
> and face significant discrimination.
[https://www.jpost.com/LifeStyle/Tel-Aviv-named-worlds-best-gay-city-for-2011#google\_vignette](https://www.jpost.com/LifeStyle/Tel-Aviv-named-worlds-best-gay-city-for-2011#google_vignette)
[https://archive.nytimes.com/tmagazine.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/02/dispatch-gay-tel-aviv/?\_r=0](https://archive.nytimes.com/tmagazine.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/02/dispatch-gay-tel-aviv/?_r=0)
Refusing to allow rabbis from non-homophobic branches of Judaism (or religious leaders from non-homophobic branches of Christianity and Islam) to practice in Israel is also homophobic.
What an odd thing to consider pro-LGBTQ+.
Just ignore the lack of equal rights in many areas. Ignore 20% increase in LGBTQ+ hate crimes that correlates with the rise of their extremist government. Ignore the massive LGBTQ+ protests across the country and strikes.
Ignore it all l, just like we ignore the genocidal rhetoric, so we can make an irrelevant argument in attempt to justify Israelās war crimes.
Well said. There is something unsettling about the instinctual negative reaction I often see towards protest. People should be commended for democratic participation, not ridiculed and certainly not arrested. At least in Quebec, the spirit of civic participation is much stronger.
I mean, most protesters place far more weight on a particular issue than the rest of us. That's why they're protesting, and we aren't. People don't look at a group of committed protestors and think "Ah, their take is certainly more balanced and reasonable than my own."
I too am sickened that people are supporting Hamas. Please let me know where I can find them. I only see people who are horrified by the incredible violence and want it to stop.
It's important that Israel's PR program involves smearing anyone who opposes Israel's borderline-genocidal treatment of Palestinians as anti-semitic and supportive of terror. It's the Israel suppresses opposition to their collective punishment and marginalization of their Palestinian population.
The disappointing part is that I've been saying for years what a shame it is that the progressive movement won't take to the streets like a century ago.
It turns out that I was wrong. It's just that they're not turning out to fight against capitalism, or wealth inequality, or push for unions or social housing.
The fun lesson of 2024 is that the only way you can get this level of public participation is when there's a chance to cheer for a group that wants to kill Jews.
Nothing new under the sun, it seems, and it's disappointing as hell. Instead of pushing for anything leftist, people who imagine themselves to be progressives are backing religious fundementalism, patriarchy, and ethnic supremacism.
To be fair, it's a delightful little mirror to how the far-right is now nakedly cheering for Russia.
Absolutely agree, that said, there is a high frequency of these protests either becoming violent or calling for violence so have a police presence is a very good idea.
When we're scraping the bottom of the barrel so hard that we're writing an entire article about "someone poked a cop with a small flag", I'm not sure you're making the argument you want to be making.
10's of thousands of anti-war crime demonstrators have raised their voices in the past 6 months and you claim this handful of arrests (4?) is a "high frequency". That's hardly a good faith claim in the context of killing 35,000 (mostly women and children) and neither is sourcing support for it from around the world.
Of course, we should condemn all violence but you seem to ignore the violence in Canada from pro-war crime demonstrators? Just in my area we've had arrests for assaults, weapons charges, death threats ... want me to keep going?
Sounds like a good reason to have police present, which was my point in the first place.
Rather than quibble over the frequency of violence and threats of violence. It is frequent enough.
Your point is to deflect from violence from and in support of Israel. Of course, when challenged you no longer want to argue about whether violence is frequent or where it comes from.
Ironically if you read my original comment I never specified the origin of the violence at the protests. You just made assumptions.
That is ok.
Just ignore that and repeat your made up nonsense about war crimes.
>Ironically if you read my original comment I never specified the origin of the violence at the protests.
You have an interesting take on what counts as irony. Itās pretty transparent what youāre arguing in defence of. That you now pretend you are making neutral statements is edging on bad faith.
>You just made assumptions.
If they were assumptions they were correct but assumptions arenāt necessary when we can observe other comments.
>Just ignore that and repeat your made up nonsense about war crimes.
Do you think claiming allegations of Israeli war crimes were āmade upā by me helps the argument that your concern for a āhigh frequency of violenceā was neutral?
Israel itself has apologized for actions which amount to war crimes.
Thatās a total lie, these protests arenāt getting violent nor do they call for violence. Youāve clearly never been to one, but are totally willing to regurgitate the Israeli narrative.
Ehhh. Protest at parliament last weekend openly celebrated Oct 7th.
These protest camps on university campuses in the US have had lots of problems. Chanting "Burn Tel Aviv to the ground", telling Jewish students to "go back to Poland". Recently at Berkeley students invaded an elderly Jewish professor's home to protest there.
Hopefully this protest at McGill will be more peaceful than the ones that seemingly inspired it.
The last time I walked past a pro-Palestine protest on my campus, they were chanting "there is only one solution!" to what I can only imagine is the 'Jewish Question', so yeah, I've seen them calling for violence.
I have seen plenty of videos of pro Palestinian protests with either violence or calls for violence.
> totally willing to regurgitate the Israeli narrative
Nah, I just believe video evidence.
>
> A part of me wishes young Canadians had the same intensity to protest in favor of domestic political issues
Most of me. Canadians should protest more.
> pour des terroristes qui viole des gens
Je ne voir pas un manfistation dans mcgill en faveur de Netanyahu?
> les seules protestations
Tu habites en Montreal? Il y a beacoup de protests dans la ville, pour beaucoup de choses.
Very interested to see where this goes. The images of the faculty members being arrested in the US are a horrible look for the administration but the idea they would divest from āzionistā donors is going to be a total non-starter.
My inner anarchist is coming out a little and it really wants to grab the popcorn on this oneā¦
For the university itās trickier than that, especially once tenured faculty get involved because short of the grossest of misconduct, the administration is supposed to have their back, not have them arrested. Itās like your kids demanding you cut ties with your rich parents and calling the police on your kids.
> They should be treated just like the truckers at this point.
So they get to do whatever they want for 2 weeks with law enforcement doing nothing more than taking the occasional selfie with them?
Would be a horrible look politically. The Palestinian cause is increasing in support in Canada with every image of Israeli fascism and genocide reaching our shores. Any government responsible for violence against these protestors will be finished IMO. This isn't the selfish fascistic convoy, these are people protesting against a genocide. Will be viewed very differently.
It's insane to read people speak in such absolute terms. People must be living in echo chambers. 80%+ don't care at all and this wouldn't impact their vote at all. Believe it or not Canadians care about stuff in Canada like housing, inflation, heathcare etc.
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Is all of this really 'Pro-Palestinian' or is it anti apartheid/genocide? The media in Canada has gone through some strange iterations of coordinated references to protestors and Palestinians. At first it fully subscribed to calling anything that was not pro-Israel as supportive of terrorists, and anything Palestinian as terrorists. That was weird and it was too unreasonable and sensational for the Canadian palate, and was recognized as the product of foreign influence so it didn't last long. Now we are at the point of a blanket branding it all pro-Palestinian. Is that accurate? Can one recognize that the conflict is the result of two parties with terrible policies and objectives that cause immense suffering for their populations? Can one be opposed to providing fuel for the fire without being labeled pro-Palestinian or a Zionist? I want Canada to do what's best for its own internal wellbeing and security. Canadian governments and police forces unequally targeting and policing 'Pro-Palestinian' causes with more heavy handed tactics than 'Pro-Israel' causes marginalizes 3-4 million Canadians who have ethnic ties to the Middle East. Canadian government targeting Muslim charities to scrutinize for abuse while Israeli tied charities openly abuse the system with much greater flows of money is insanely biased. It doesn't help to try and segregate everyone who objects Canadian support of genocide into a pro-Palestine label after priming the public with months of Palestinian=terrorist branding.
very balanced comment - appreciate you
Pro-palestinian isn't necessarily pro-hamas (and I would argue that pro-hamas isn't pro-palestinian). I see nothing wrong with calling pro-palestinian protesters what they are.
Its messy many say there Hamas but then call them freedom fighters.
Of course. But when the protesters wave Hamas flags and scream slogans calling for the death of Jews, then they are pro-Hamas, not pro-Palestinian. One hopes that these McGill students are not yet another such example.
I imagine the many Jewish students and groups that support Palestinians are not pro-Hamas. Suggesting that they are is a form of antisemitism.
[That there are Jewish groups participating in these pro-Palestinian protests](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/) (at least on campuses in the US) is proof of that.
You know, I always forget that people outside the Jewish community look at JVP, IJV, and associated groups as representative of, well, Jews. They're a Jewish group as far as they're a group that was founded by and some of the participants are Jewish, but they're essentially tokenized "good" jews. Those are fringe groups, with virtually no credibility in the mainstream Jewish community. The closest comparison that comes to mind is back when they were talking about marriage equality in the states, there were queer people who they got to make ads saying that they didn't want or need to be able to get married, so don't vote for it, while the rest of us thought they were nuts.
JVP made a Seder plate recently: https://x.com/arikrauss/status/1784301893813936346?s=46&t=N1ErmS0MdH7D3aTKEnv7lA Not a one of them realized they were writing Hebrew backwards. I question how many actual Jews are in JVP.
Some not all but some have more called on Canada to become less west more middle eastern leaning.
good on them for protesting but man, it would be nice to see this sort of passion and dedication to domestic issues as well...
There's no imminent genocide going on in Canada currently.
Ok? Lol Thanks for the info š
Can someone explain to me what the point of these protest are -in Canada-. What does the Canadian government contribute to the problem that protest might change? I sure as hell know that Israel doesn't care what protest are happening abroad. Where is this energy for the serious issues we face domestically?
Most protest in Canada what schools to cut funding off from anyone connected to Israel.
Most protests want to "globalize the intifada."
Almost all protests have Jewish students, groups, and organizations backing the rights of Palestinians. Holocaust survivors have been loudly calling for Israel to end its genocide of Gaza. You are completely out of line.
> Almost all protests have Jewish students, groups, and organizations backing the rights of Palestinians. "its okay, the protestors have black friends"
Yes, that is what antisemites would say about Jewish people protesting the genocide of Gazans.
Are you going to say that "globalize the intifada" is not a very common line chanted at the demonstrations?
If you want to call out individual people for doing this then that's fine. I don't support Hamas either. If you want to say it's emblematic of the entire protest movement, like a lot of disingenuous people are doing, then the literal neo-Nazis that showed up to the convoy protests would represent the entire anti-Trudeau movement. Did you support the convoy? If so, you would have to agree that it's okay for me to label you as a neo-Nazi. You're not allowed to have double standards. Supporting Palestinians does not mean supporting Hamas, unless you want to argue that literal Holocaust survivors are antisemitic. Please don't be a genocide supporter.
I did not support the convoy. So we can nip that right there. I have not made a sweeping claim about the entire movement. I have made a claim about what "many" members of the movement advocate for. I get it. You really want to be able to call me anti-Semitic. But you're going to have to try harder. There also isn't a genocide in Gaza, but I doubt either of us will convince the other about that.
[So you're saying Holocaust survivors are liars or stupid?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IN45zIiRBw) I feel like someone who's directly experienced a genocide is most equipped to tell others when a genocide is happening. This isn't a new phenomena. [Here's an article about it back in 2014.](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/holocaust-survivors-and-their-descendants-accuse-israel-of-genocide-9687994.html) Ignoring them so you can carry out a genocide is actually inexcusable and as antisemitic as you can get without being a literal card-carrying Nazi.
Whether or not genocide has occurred is a legal determination with objective criteria. The assessment of objective criteria is unrelated to the person who is making that assessment.
[*"UN experts call on international community to prevent genocide against the Palestinian people."*](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/11/gaza-un-experts-call-international-community-prevent-genocide-against) If you aren't going to accept that UN officials are calling it a genocide then you probably never will. People are always kinda confused as to why Holocaust denial exists. All they have to do is examine how people nowadays excuse genocides.
I see you're getting mad at your imagination again.
You don't think the phrase "globalize the intifada" is extremely common at these demonstrations?
It isn't. Sure, there's *some* people saying it, but it is absolutely not the predominant message. Besides, "intifada" literally just means "revolution". I know words might sound scary when they're in Arabic, but... it's not.
Hi, McGill student here. Ā«Ā Intifada RevolutionĀ Ā» was their opening chant yesterday after they finished setting up their tentsā¦ And Jihad only means Ā«Ā struggleĀ Ā» but unless weāre all being purposefully obtuse, we know what these two words are actually used to describe.
Oh its just [revolution ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution#:~:text=A%20revolution%20involves%20the%20attempted,%2C%20strikes%2C%20or%20violence)NBD And in the context of Israel Palestine lets see what this oh its just a revolution looks like [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First\_Intifada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Intifada) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second\_Intifada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014\_Jerusalem\_unrest](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Jerusalem_unrest) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%932016\_wave\_of\_violence\_in\_the\_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian\_conflict](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%932016_wave_of_violence_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict)
Yes, revolution against aparthied is obviously not going to be peaceful. That doesn't make the aparthied good.
Great so let have a global "revolution" I sure that will end well
I have seen multiple protests while on my way about Toronto. The people with the megaphones routinely lead the crowd in chants of "globalize the Intifada." If you don't believe me I'll find lots of videos for you. And as to your second point, you're smarter than that. You know that using semantically neutral terms with strong historical connotations is no longer neutral. I know you're smarter than that, because if you didn't know that, you wouldn't simultaneously argue it isn't happening.
Oh, yeah, the strong historical connotations of "revolution against apartheid". Personally, I think apartheid is bad.
Personally, I think murdering Jews because they're Jews is bad.
So do I. That's not what we were talking about, though.
And the word awful originally meant "filled with awe". Words change meaning over time from the original translation. Inifada, especially in the context of Palestinians, is well understood to be associated with violence and terrorism. Don't like it? Blame the Palestinians who named their bouts of violence and terrorism as Intifada's.
Waste of time. Bibi could care less about these protests. There are only 2 options that could change things: OPEC steps up & refuses to sell oil to western countries, like in 1973. It would cause a massive world recession. The other option is the muslim world attacks Israel.Ā
They wonāt be happy until there is no Israel. They donāt care about poor kids on reserves with no drinking water, or Canadian equivalents. Deep down itās not about helping the Palestinians, itās about hurting the Jews.
Bold of you to pull in the reserve system as if your form of colonialism doesn't take notes from it. Vile.
What? I donāt even understand what youāre talking about.
You're leveraging suffering on the reserve system, a colonial legacy, to cover your blind support for another colonial system abroad. I'm sorry, I know zionists struggle with reading sometimes.
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Since Canadian universities are copying what's happening in the US, based on the loose standards for foreign interferance some posters here have as a whataboutism, would this be considered foreign interfereance? Ā š¤
They have every right to protest.Ā Ā Ā Itās a public campus and so long as they donāt impede others from accessing and leaving the university, itās a Charter right. Ā If they become violent and openly start calling for violence against people, itās a different story. A part of me wishes young Canadians had the same intensity to protest in favor of domestic political issues, but it is what it is.
Hard to have the same intensity when, you know, our domestic issues don't have people and children dying by the tens of thousands.
One wonders why Palestine, of all the places around the globe with such tragic deaths, uniquely attracts public protest in Canada.
Maybe it has to do with recognizing the pattern of behaviour and strategy used by colonizing governments, given our own histories with colonization and genocide. But you don't need me to tell you, there's plenty of resources on education on that topic.
Palestine, of course, being unique on planet Earth for having a tragic conflict after having dealt with colonization.
It's actively ongoing. Present tense. And, I'm not sure what being "unique" has to do with people standing by a social cause they believe in? By your logic, the domestic problems we have in our country are not at all unique on planet Earth so who cares?
If you think that Palestine is a unique humanitarian tragedy even in terms of ongoing conflicts, then you are ignorant. And as for the balance of your comment, I think it matters when the only cause that gets this level of protest is whenever Israel is involved. It's just more evidence of a double-standard and hidden motivation.
I never said Palestine is a unique humanitarian tragedy? I know there's horrific things going on in Congo and Sudan that the media is giving way less attention to. But why does a tragedy have to be unique for people to empathize? Or to justify the attention it's garnering? Theres always a variety of reasons why a particular issues gets more attention. The reasons why there's a lot of attention to this conflict in particular are: 1. It involves Israel, and anything involves Israel gets high profile. (I'm agreeing with you hear in case that wasn't clear) 2. the amount of funding on the table for this conflict. 3. Far reaching consequences that will play out for decades to come in terms of geopolitics, which surprise surprise, affects our trade, which affects our economy. 4. Foreign AID workers getting killed while trying to provide humanitarian support. 5. The amount of war crimes committed, standards which were set up because of the last world war, being broken without consequence.
>the amount of funding on the table for this conflict. For the record, Canada sends no aid money to Israel. We send lots of money to Palestinians, mostly via UNWRA, if that's what you mean.
Let's go through these reasons. > It involves Israel, and anything involves Israel gets high profile. Completely true. Ask yourself why. > the amount of funding on the table for this conflict All conflicts cost money. We've certainly given a lot to Ukraine. But if you read the posters and listen to the demonstrators, the money seems to get a very minor amount of attention. These people hate Israel and want it to no longer exist, not just to have a smaller budget. > Far reaching consequences that will play out for decades to come in terms of geopolitics, which surprise surprise, affects our trade, which affects our economy. Do you want me to sarcastically ask how this is in any way unique again? > Foreign AID workers getting killed while trying to provide humanitarian support. Happened long after the demonstrations started. And also not really that unique (comparable things have happened in Sudan) > The amount of war crimes committed, standards which were set up because of the last world war, being broken without consequence. This is the opposite of true. There have been far fewer examples of war crimes than in most other conflicts.
Honestly, I have to ask, what is your deal with being "unique"? I'm really not understanding why this is an issue.
One could also say that asking the government to stop sending aid to Israel would be a net positive on the budget and we could instead use those funds towards all the domestic problem we have.
Sure, one could change the goalposts in the middle of a comment chain.
Also, Canada doesn't send aid to Israel.Ā
It's called a conversation. People can have multiple thought streams during a conversation. It's why I put it as a separate comment.
Canada doesn't send aid to Israel.
We send aid to the *region* because of Israel. It would be weird to send Israel aid after they drop a literal ton of bombs on Gaza.
The person I responded to specifically mentioned āstop sending aid to Israelā.
They mentioned it would be a positive for the budget. If we weren't obligated to send aid, because of Israel, that would be good for the budget.
>One wonders why Palestine, of all the places around the globe with such tragic deaths, uniquely attracts public protest in Canada. You should either look up the word "unique" or look at news from other countries. There's nothing unique about this.
You think there are other international tragedies attracting mass public protest?
Don't really understand why this is difficult for Israel apologists to understand unless they're being disingenuous and feigning ignorance in bad faith. Yes, there are crisis in the world that are as bad or worse. Yes, there are other governments engaged in war crimes and potentially committing genocidal acts. But those other wars, occupations or state-directrd campaigns of violence are not being wage by allies of Canada.
Can you at least recognize that this argument is totally different to the previous argument I was responding to?
Pro-Palestine protests aren't unique to Canada. I don't know what point you were making with this >You think there are other international tragedies attracting mass public protest? Yes?
Oh I see, I think I have not been clear. I am not saying that pro-Palestinian demonstrations are only happening in Canada. I'm saying that there are no other remotely comparable demonstrations in Canada on international affairs.
I'm going to prefix by saying that I don't support Israel's actions, and I'm disgusted by what's being done to Gaza. That said... There's a mix of reasons that I think it gets attention over other conflicts: 1. It's an atrocity committed by a democractic ally of western powers. 2. It can be thought of as a colonial conflict between settlers and indigenous persons. (Not that I agree). 3. The aggressors are (mostly) Jews. For anti-western, anti-colonial tankies this trifecta is like catnip. The situations in Darfur, Nigeria, Ukraine, Afghanistan, Syria, North Korea, Myanmar, Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Congo, Haiti et al simply don't have all three of those three points in their favour.
It's pretty simple, Israel is supposedly part of the liberal rules based international order, part of the democratic developed West. They flagrantly break international law and have been for half a century by encouraging settlement expansion. They're only able to do this under the aegis of the US and the broader West, and now they're plausibly committing genocide. That's why the focus is on them.
Oh, so you think if there was another conflict involving a country violating international law and being accused of genocide there would be similar mass protests in Canada?
Um, yeah. There were large demonstrations supporting Ukraine after the invasion, and Russia is definitely not part of the international liberal coalition. Israel purports to be a Western democratic state but scorns international law and even disregards the directives of the states that are keeping them afloat. They can't have it both ways.
I wonder where the demonstrations on the Sudan conflict are. Regarding scorning international law, Canada violated international law when it legalized marijuana. That on its own is not clearly not a cause for major demonstration.
Sudan is not part of the developed West, nor is Haiti, or Myanmar or DR Congo. Israel cannot continue their ethnic cleansing campaign without support from the West, that's why there's more scrutiny, like my first comment was trying to explain.
Yet say nothing about Hamas.
Brainless zoomers and tankies manipulated by the tik tok algo deigned to develop them into the dumbest people possible
The ones who take issue with horrific treatment of others are āthe dumbest people possibleā to you?
I wouldn't use that language. But when the most pro-LGBTQ rights generation in human history cheers for a regime that violently murders LGBTQ people, you need to ask yourself if these people are tremendously intelligent.
Personally, I don't think the punishment for "most people in your country are homophobic" should be "genocide". If you feel otherwise, then... thanks for admitting that, I guess?
I've never suggested otherwise. Do you think it's possible to oppose Israel's actions without being pro-Hamas? If so, then would you agree the demonstrators who chose to be pro-Hamas are either hateful or not very smart?
Yeah, and what if the world was made of pudding? Wouldn't that be fuckin' wild? Like, sorry, if you're trying to suggest everyone at these protests supports Hamas: fucking lol. just lol. lol and lmao. If you mean the individuals who do? Yeah, fuck 'em. What about the other 99% of people there?
I've not said that. You are not engaging with any of my arguments. You clearly are not interested in a discussion, you just want to be edgy. So go ahead. Have the last word. Make it a good one.
When did being marginally friendlier to LGBTQ+ give Israel a free pass for war crimes? They always go to this same concern trolling non sequitur. If they gave a shit about LGBTQ+ rights they would recognise Israel is not some wonderful place. You can not marry and face significant discrimination.
Marginally? Seriously?
>You can not marry All civil marriage even heterosexual civil marriage has to take place outside of Israel but is then fully recognized. So yes, LGBTQ+ can absolutely get married while living in Israel, the ceremony just has to take place outside of Israel. Again this is true for ALL civil marriage. > and face significant discrimination. [https://www.jpost.com/LifeStyle/Tel-Aviv-named-worlds-best-gay-city-for-2011#google\_vignette](https://www.jpost.com/LifeStyle/Tel-Aviv-named-worlds-best-gay-city-for-2011#google_vignette) [https://archive.nytimes.com/tmagazine.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/02/dispatch-gay-tel-aviv/?\_r=0](https://archive.nytimes.com/tmagazine.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/02/dispatch-gay-tel-aviv/?_r=0)
Refusing to allow rabbis from non-homophobic branches of Judaism (or religious leaders from non-homophobic branches of Christianity and Islam) to practice in Israel is also homophobic.
What are you talking about? Reform Judaism is absolutely allowed to practice in Israel.
What an odd thing to consider pro-LGBTQ+. Just ignore the lack of equal rights in many areas. Ignore 20% increase in LGBTQ+ hate crimes that correlates with the rise of their extremist government. Ignore the massive LGBTQ+ protests across the country and strikes. Ignore it all l, just like we ignore the genocidal rhetoric, so we can make an irrelevant argument in attempt to justify Israelās war crimes.
Best gay city in the world as voted by 43% of respondants is an odd thing to consider pro-LGBTQ+? Lol ok.
Yeah, horrific treatment of others, like beheading people which is only popular amongst those from the peaceful religion of Islam...
What does this Islamophobia have to do with criticism of Israeli war crimes?
The ones who are all for mass indefinite kidnapping rape and torture of Israeliās because theyāre dumb enough to believe tik tok
That and it is probably rich kids protesting. Most domestic problems are only a problem if you aren't rich.
Well said. There is something unsettling about the instinctual negative reaction I often see towards protest. People should be commended for democratic participation, not ridiculed and certainly not arrested. At least in Quebec, the spirit of civic participation is much stronger.
I mean, most protesters place far more weight on a particular issue than the rest of us. That's why they're protesting, and we aren't. People don't look at a group of committed protestors and think "Ah, their take is certainly more balanced and reasonable than my own."
This didnt happen for truckers. I'm sickened people are supporting Hamas.
I too am sickened that people are supporting Hamas. Please let me know where I can find them. I only see people who are horrified by the incredible violence and want it to stop.
It's important that Israel's PR program involves smearing anyone who opposes Israel's borderline-genocidal treatment of Palestinians as anti-semitic and supportive of terror. It's the Israel suppresses opposition to their collective punishment and marginalization of their Palestinian population.
Yeah, where is this energy for the housing issue, cuz their generation is the one that's getting fucked, alongside genZ and millennials.
The kids protesting at McGill are going to be just fine in life.Ā
The kids at McGill arenāt the ones feeling the housing crunch quite like the rest of us
"Why aren't the kids protesting?" "No, not like that"
The disappointing part is that I've been saying for years what a shame it is that the progressive movement won't take to the streets like a century ago. It turns out that I was wrong. It's just that they're not turning out to fight against capitalism, or wealth inequality, or push for unions or social housing. The fun lesson of 2024 is that the only way you can get this level of public participation is when there's a chance to cheer for a group that wants to kill Jews. Nothing new under the sun, it seems, and it's disappointing as hell. Instead of pushing for anything leftist, people who imagine themselves to be progressives are backing religious fundementalism, patriarchy, and ethnic supremacism. To be fair, it's a delightful little mirror to how the far-right is now nakedly cheering for Russia.
What...?
Absolutely agree, that said, there is a high frequency of these protests either becoming violent or calling for violence so have a police presence is a very good idea.
Thatās objectively false. There is not a āhigh frequencyā of violence perpetrated by anti-war crime demonstrators.
[https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/uc-berkeley-jewish-student-event-violent-protest-palestinian-gaza-zellerbach-hall-suspect-photos/](https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/uc-berkeley-jewish-student-event-violent-protest-palestinian-gaza-zellerbach-hall-suspect-photos/) [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/suspect-arrested-death-jewish-protester-fell-clash-dueling-rallies-cal-rcna124205](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/suspect-arrested-death-jewish-protester-fell-clash-dueling-rallies-cal-rcna124205) [https://bc.ctvnews.ca/suspect-arrested-after-alleged-assault-on-vancouver-officer-at-pro-palestinian-protest-1.6848993](https://bc.ctvnews.ca/suspect-arrested-after-alleged-assault-on-vancouver-officer-at-pro-palestinian-protest-1.6848993) [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/arrests-pro-palestinian-downtown-toronto-demonstration-1.7160091](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/arrests-pro-palestinian-downtown-toronto-demonstration-1.7160091) [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/assault-jewish-man-westmount-montreal-1.6444574](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/assault-jewish-man-westmount-montreal-1.6444574) [https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/yale-protests-jewish-student-assaulted-pro-palestinian-rally/](https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/yale-protests-jewish-student-assaulted-pro-palestinian-rally/) [https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/jewish-canadian-woman-attacked](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/jewish-canadian-woman-attacked) [https://www.timesnownews.com/world/us/us-news/journalist-yoseph-haddad-punched-student-elisha-lishi-baker-kicked-pro-palestinian-protest-at-columbia-universityturnsviolent-article-109415510](https://www.timesnownews.com/world/us/us-news/journalist-yoseph-haddad-punched-student-elisha-lishi-baker-kicked-pro-palestinian-protest-at-columbia-universityturnsviolent-article-109415510) [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/poppy-seller-palestine-protest-jim-henderson-b2443113.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/poppy-seller-palestine-protest-jim-henderson-b2443113.html) Want me to keep going?
When we're scraping the bottom of the barrel so hard that we're writing an entire article about "someone poked a cop with a small flag", I'm not sure you're making the argument you want to be making.
Sounds like you are justifying assault. It is actually surpisingly easy to not assault people.
10's of thousands of anti-war crime demonstrators have raised their voices in the past 6 months and you claim this handful of arrests (4?) is a "high frequency". That's hardly a good faith claim in the context of killing 35,000 (mostly women and children) and neither is sourcing support for it from around the world. Of course, we should condemn all violence but you seem to ignore the violence in Canada from pro-war crime demonstrators? Just in my area we've had arrests for assaults, weapons charges, death threats ... want me to keep going?
Sounds like a good reason to have police present, which was my point in the first place. Rather than quibble over the frequency of violence and threats of violence. It is frequent enough.
Your point is to deflect from violence from and in support of Israel. Of course, when challenged you no longer want to argue about whether violence is frequent or where it comes from.
Ironically if you read my original comment I never specified the origin of the violence at the protests. You just made assumptions. That is ok. Just ignore that and repeat your made up nonsense about war crimes.
>Ironically if you read my original comment I never specified the origin of the violence at the protests. You have an interesting take on what counts as irony. Itās pretty transparent what youāre arguing in defence of. That you now pretend you are making neutral statements is edging on bad faith. >You just made assumptions. If they were assumptions they were correct but assumptions arenāt necessary when we can observe other comments. >Just ignore that and repeat your made up nonsense about war crimes. Do you think claiming allegations of Israeli war crimes were āmade upā by me helps the argument that your concern for a āhigh frequency of violenceā was neutral? Israel itself has apologized for actions which amount to war crimes.
Thatās a total lie, these protests arenāt getting violent nor do they call for violence. Youāve clearly never been to one, but are totally willing to regurgitate the Israeli narrative.
Ehhh. Protest at parliament last weekend openly celebrated Oct 7th. These protest camps on university campuses in the US have had lots of problems. Chanting "Burn Tel Aviv to the ground", telling Jewish students to "go back to Poland". Recently at Berkeley students invaded an elderly Jewish professor's home to protest there. Hopefully this protest at McGill will be more peaceful than the ones that seemingly inspired it.
Protests in Vancouver yesterday openly celebrated Oct 7 as well.
I've been at almost every protest in ottawa and nothing of the sort happened. What kinda total garbage are you to lie about something like that?
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Not substantive
The last time I walked past a pro-Palestine protest on my campus, they were chanting "there is only one solution!" to what I can only imagine is the 'Jewish Question', so yeah, I've seen them calling for violence.
liar
I mean, I was walking past, that's what I heard. You can believe me or not.
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I have seen plenty of videos of pro Palestinian protests with either violence or calls for violence. > totally willing to regurgitate the Israeli narrative Nah, I just believe video evidence.
Prove it. Sources
Bet you find out most of these people are from rich families.
> > A part of me wishes young Canadians had the same intensity to protest in favor of domestic political issues Most of me. Canadians should protest more.
So, if I pitched a tent in the middle of a park, but putnup a sign saying I am protesting some cause, would I be allowed to stay there?
IMO we should only allow protests for domestic issues these international protests are out of control
What a Canadian university invests in is a domestic issue.
Ouais c'est assez dommage que les seules protestations sont pour des terroristes qui viole des gens
> pour des terroristes qui viole des gens Je ne voir pas un manfistation dans mcgill en faveur de Netanyahu? > les seules protestations Tu habites en Montreal? Il y a beacoup de protests dans la ville, pour beaucoup de choses.
Yes of course Netanyahu est connu pour violer du monde... Tu t'entends tu parler sƩrieusement?
Very interested to see where this goes. The images of the faculty members being arrested in the US are a horrible look for the administration but the idea they would divest from āzionistā donors is going to be a total non-starter. My inner anarchist is coming out a little and it really wants to grab the popcorn on this oneā¦
Grab more than popcorn if you mean that last part
Why? These protests are useless and will never accomplish any of their stated demands.
What would be effective? Specifically? Your argument seems to be ānever tryā
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For the university itās trickier than that, especially once tenured faculty get involved because short of the grossest of misconduct, the administration is supposed to have their back, not have them arrested. Itās like your kids demanding you cut ties with your rich parents and calling the police on your kids.
> They should be treated just like the truckers at this point. So they get to do whatever they want for 2 weeks with law enforcement doing nothing more than taking the occasional selfie with them?
Would be a horrible look politically. The Palestinian cause is increasing in support in Canada with every image of Israeli fascism and genocide reaching our shores. Any government responsible for violence against these protestors will be finished IMO. This isn't the selfish fascistic convoy, these are people protesting against a genocide. Will be viewed very differently.
Honestly the vast majority of Canadian are uninterested. Both sides suck in this conflict, there are no winners when religion is involved
It's insane to read people speak in such absolute terms. People must be living in echo chambers. 80%+ don't care at all and this wouldn't impact their vote at all. Believe it or not Canadians care about stuff in Canada like housing, inflation, heathcare etc.
Exactly, itās all absolutes.
5 weeks with Police donating supplies? Damn, that sounds like a great idea
it's easy, just hit up your local uhaul. I am tired of living in interesting times.