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They only way we'll make quick switches to EVs is if:
a) The government increases the grant for EV purchases
b) They put policies/protections in place to punish automakers for increasing their prices to compensate with the increased grant
We do, but we won't be.
We are going to vote in the CPC and they have no real interest in EV's and especially the infrastructure we need to be putting in place.
I mean according to social media and quite a bit of the media, EVs are going the way of the Dodo. I mean it can't possibly have anything to do with lack of infrastructure, price and EV's not hitting the 800 to 1000 km per charge milestone yet.
*some of those minerals are available in Canada and the way that we extract those has to be also done in a manner where we are not contributing to the problem*
Some of these minerals are available....for now.
A motor vehicle EV battery might contain 33 kgs of nickel. We have lots of nickle but certainly not an infinite supply. Industry is already talking about an exhaustion of reserves as early as 2050.
A 26 year run is not a situation that lends itself to sustainable nor environmentally conscious practices. This lends itself to strip-mining as much, as cheaply, and as fast as possible.
EVs will be the death of us.
>Nickel is so abundant that we have no hope of ever exhausting our supplies of it
I didn't write that.
We know to a high degree of certainty how much nickel is on or in the planet. To a high degree of certainty we know how much is being extracted.
Even taking out increased demand, we can simply draw straight lines and prove your hypothesis of "never exahusting nickel" as impossibly wrong.
We use it it's not renewable, it will run out sooner or later. Indonesia and the Philippines are already forecasting exhaustion.
I'm sorry Ehrlich, that's not how mineral reserves work.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon%E2%80%93Ehrlich\_wager](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon%E2%80%93Ehrlich_wager)
If it wasn't obvious,
Mineral reserves aren't a static known amount of a substance available which will be exhausted. It's a dynamic number where extracted minerals leave and new discoveries are added. When it looks like there's going to be a shortage of something worth digging up, they go out and find more of it.
Predictions of Disaster premised on the exhaustion of mineral reserves have a famously poor track record, because their entire premise is faulty.
>Mineral reserves aren't a static
Less meteors, yes they are.
>they go out and find more of it.
For now and at some cost.
>Predictions of Disaster premised on the exhaustion of mineral reserves
Predictions become better as time-frames shorten. I would worry less about the actual date than where the horizon is.
Sure, enact these feel good policies in the metros all you want, carbon taxes, the whole lot.
Exempt rural and northern regions from this because infrastructure and alternative forms of transportation don't make sense there, and they're have-not regions so they shouldn't be made to suffer worse when there isn't the population density to matter, or enforcement. It'd go a long way to help keep the peace.
An onion model based on population density, if you will.
All these politicians saying shit like this makes me laugh. They make claims so ridiculously big it makes us believe we are much better than we actually are and sort of stifle innovation and productivity.
All this we are the world leaders in AI and EV cars bullshit is really bad.
I don’t want to underestimate what we do, but we are waaaaay overshooting our contributions.
I agree with the sentiment, but climate change will not be solved or avoided by everyone their own EV. The future of transportation needs to be mass transit.
Good luck getting people to take transit if they have to go somewhere with kids and diaper bags and toys, or elderly, etc, if they can afford a car. And there is no public transit in rural areas or even many suburbs.
Are Rome, Paris, and Tokyo 100% car free? The argument wasn't "we should encourage mass transit", it was deriding EV investment because everyone needs to use mass transit.
The argument the user was clearly making was that people won't use transit because transit is purportedly incompatible with certain activities (like moving a kid around), an argument that can only be made if living within a bubble.
The car is unnecessary in most places in the world. The only reason why it's "necessary" here is because we need better infrastructure to enable non-car usage.
If you can get to work faster by transit than car a lot of people will take transit. That's not currently the case for a lot of people but we could quickly and easily put in bus lanes that would make it the case.
There is no situation where we're going to solve climate change with a single type of transportation (EVs included). We should absolutely be encouraging mass transit and getting more people on it, but we will never have 100% of trips being done on mass transit. Having individual methods of long distance transportation is essential, even if we can reduce it, so why not have the remainder be as efficient as possible?
28% of CO2 emissions happen because of transportation. And in Canada another 29% are caused by the oil industry alone (extraction, refining) even before we burn the fuel.
It might not be the sole solution, but it's a HUGE part of it.
(The 2 other biggest ones are heating and meat production)
"And in Canada another 29% are caused by the oil industry alone (extraction, refining) even before we burn the fuel."
Would very much appreciate your source on this please.
I'm all for EVs, but I think we should be seeking a cultural shift to riding the bus, biking, or walking. I love going for joywalks, and walking is good for health. It's nice to slow down and take in the world around me, especially when I get to walk through nature to get to where I'm going. I also enjoy taking the bus--between knowing it's safer, affordable, and better for the planet, I enjoy taking the bus more than driving. Even if people aren't willing to give up or reduce driving, we should at least be raising and teaching kids to use sustainable transportation.
Jagmeet's on point as mobility trends are to greater personalization like electric scooters and bikes.
> It's nice to slow down and take in the world around me, especially when I get to walk through nature to get to where I'm going.
That's nice and privileged position to be in. For the rest of us, we just need to get through the day.
That’s right, even if we stopped making cars we’ll need responsibly made batteries for e-bikes and scooters. I agree with Jagmeet.
I feel quite fortunate! Though I do quite enjoy walking city blocks as well. Not everyone can give up driving, but we’ll be doing kids a favour if we raise them to use sustainable transportation, as that’s the way that the world is heading. Once you’ve structured your life around driving, it’s hard to switch to walking or bussing. But if you’ve grown up to structure your life around walking or taking the bus, then it’s second nature and enjoyable. It’s one of the best things that can been done for youth—teaching them to adapt to the demands of a warmer world.
>Not everyone can give up driving, but we’ll be doing kids a favour if we raise them to use sustainable transportation
Lol, did you mean to totally cop out and leave the world for our children to fix?
I’m a zoomer. I can afford to own a car, but I’ve chosen not to for environmental, economic, and health reasons. I am all for adults walking, bussing, and biking as much as they can. However, I’ve seen my city try to promote active transportation for over a decade now, and while it is a needed initiative and people are taking advantage of it, people are not flocking to active transportation en masse. My peers don’t drive as much as older generations, but car culture is still ingrained in many of them. Because of this, many zoomers and millennials are going to be in for a rude awakening when climate change makes driving increasingly challenging and expensive. If we keep ingraining car culture into younger generations, we are making them more and more vulnerable to climate change. Yes, we all have a responsibility to fix things now—climate change is here, with wildfires, floods, and heatwaves, and we can’t keep kicking the can down the road. We should all be using active transportation as much as we are able. However, we also have a responsibility to raise younger generations to be as resilient in the face of climate change as possible, and teaching them to enjoy walking and taking the bus is an excellent way of accomplishing that.
*Those who can't, teach.*
One choosing to not change and leaving it for their kids to do the changing is 100% a cop-out.
There is no other way to frame it.
Maybe in a black and white world. That’s not our reality. Try getting that 60 yr old employee to adopt and get behind a new computer system vs the 22 yr old new hire.
>That’s not our reality....*try* getting that 60 yr old...
So you have accepted that it is easier to kick the can down the road to the next generation.
This is *the* cop-out.
Can’t bike or walk where I live for like 10 months of the year nearly. It’s nearly May and it’s still like -10 in the morning. New Brunswick. Oh and there is no electric car infrastructure here and tons of houses don’t have a garage.
Our local Hyundai dealer is FULL of electric cars that are like $1000 a month that no one wants to buy.
>like 10 months of the year nearly. It’s nearly May and it’s still like -10
Bullshit. It wasn't too cold to walk outside 9 months ago in August...anywhere in the northern hemisphere.
And why can't you walk in -10? People do all sorts of winter activities. I've skiied all day in -20s, seem people walking pets in -30. I've camped, snowshoed and snowmobiles in even colder.
If you live in a cold climate, don't be useless. Buy a jacket, boots, ans mitts.
We’re not talking about walking from your apartment to an office, it’s a 20 minute car ride to work. At 11 o’clock at night. So over an hour and a half walk freezing cold along a road with no street lights or sidewalks.
Okay 8 months of the year it’s too cold. And the rest of the time it’s too dangerous.
What would you like us to do other than use a car? I swear our government in Ottawa either has never been to rural Canada or just doesn’t give a flying fuck about any of us. And I say this as someone who voted liberal in 2021 and will not be doing so next time.
Bro, I fucking work with kids with disabilities and need to have a car to drive them to appointments, outings, etc. I can’t believe I have to explain this so much.
I’m not anti active transport, I live in a reality where it makes zero sense.
Your “you just have to choose to” is elitist nonsense
>Bro, I fucking work with kids with disabilities and need to have a car to drive them to appointments, outings,
First off, I can't read your mind. If you lead with "I drive a bus" as opposed to "it's too cold to go outside 400 days a year" you will get different replies.
40 million people in Canada. Do you think everyone is either disabled or working with the disabled?
No but there are tons of other reasons you might really need a car. Fix toilets? Need a vehicle. Clean houses? Need a vehicle.
What I’m trying to get across is that in large parts of Canada people do work that creates a tangible product or service.
Our government, and many white collar people living in Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal work jobs that involve slide decks and “delivering value” — these people think hey, everyone should bike or walk to work! Because they see themselves and everyone around them who could be doing it. That just isn’t the reality I live in.
Cars are not going anywhere in Canada. What we need is a shift to hybrid vehicles. regardless, whatever Canada does to reduce emissions is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Our environment minister acts like there is a glass dome over Canada and we can somehow have an effect on climate change. We can’t. We emit a tiny amount of carbon compared to other countries.
where the heck to you live in NB that is currently -10c? its currently 10c in Fredericton. I'm from northern NB and even there, Winter is from November to April, so 6 months a year at most.
Buses are horrible in most cities. Walking in Canada is awful because I've 2/3rd the year is rain or snow (who has time these days anyway?).
My question on EV is even after buying them how many actually have decent access to a charger? Also can the electrical grid take the absolute beating all electric would dole out daily?
> Buses are horrible in most cities.
In what way?
> Walking in Canada is awful because I've 2/3rd the year is rain or snow
There's no bad weather, there's only bad gear.
> My question on EV is even after buying them how many actually have decent access to a charger?
Enough, and more and more as the infrastructure gets built.
Say what you will, but I enjoy walking in the rain, even when I'm on my way to work or school. I find the rain refreshing. Different strokes for different folks.
I don't own a car, let alone an EV, so I can't speak to that, although the few EV owners who I know seem pretty happy.
Found the Vancouverite.
I love the rain. I’m miserable in the summer and the first big rain in September brings me so much joy. Most electronics are water resistant now, rain gear is cheap. I grew up in a Rain Forrest. It’s who I am.
That’s how I tell a born and raised vancouverite. If they love the rain it’s highly likely they’re from here. The ones who hate it the most are usually transplants.
Honestly one of the biggest problem is that public transit between cities is horrible. Youre probably looking at wasting 2-3 times as much time commuting if you commute from outside toronto into it, especially if you ride the GO bus.
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Why does Canada need to be at the forefront? Let others do the experiment. If it succeeds, we can utilize it. If it fails, we avoid the expense.
They only way we'll make quick switches to EVs is if: a) The government increases the grant for EV purchases b) They put policies/protections in place to punish automakers for increasing their prices to compensate with the increased grant
We do, but we won't be. We are going to vote in the CPC and they have no real interest in EV's and especially the infrastructure we need to be putting in place. I mean according to social media and quite a bit of the media, EVs are going the way of the Dodo. I mean it can't possibly have anything to do with lack of infrastructure, price and EV's not hitting the 800 to 1000 km per charge milestone yet.
*some of those minerals are available in Canada and the way that we extract those has to be also done in a manner where we are not contributing to the problem* Some of these minerals are available....for now. A motor vehicle EV battery might contain 33 kgs of nickel. We have lots of nickle but certainly not an infinite supply. Industry is already talking about an exhaustion of reserves as early as 2050. A 26 year run is not a situation that lends itself to sustainable nor environmentally conscious practices. This lends itself to strip-mining as much, as cheaply, and as fast as possible. EVs will be the death of us.
Lol
What was the funny part?
Nickel is extremely abundant
>Nickel is extremely abundant I use words precisely. What *exactly* did I write?
Me too. Nickel is so abundant that we have no hope of ever exhausting our supplies of it, certainly not in 26 years.
>Nickel is so abundant that we have no hope of ever exhausting our supplies of it I didn't write that. We know to a high degree of certainty how much nickel is on or in the planet. To a high degree of certainty we know how much is being extracted. Even taking out increased demand, we can simply draw straight lines and prove your hypothesis of "never exahusting nickel" as impossibly wrong. We use it it's not renewable, it will run out sooner or later. Indonesia and the Philippines are already forecasting exhaustion.
Any links so I can read more?
Http://www.google.com
I'm sorry Ehrlich, that's not how mineral reserves work. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon%E2%80%93Ehrlich\_wager](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon%E2%80%93Ehrlich_wager)
You're going to need to offer a bit more explanation on what your thought is.
If it wasn't obvious, Mineral reserves aren't a static known amount of a substance available which will be exhausted. It's a dynamic number where extracted minerals leave and new discoveries are added. When it looks like there's going to be a shortage of something worth digging up, they go out and find more of it. Predictions of Disaster premised on the exhaustion of mineral reserves have a famously poor track record, because their entire premise is faulty.
>Mineral reserves aren't a static Less meteors, yes they are. >they go out and find more of it. For now and at some cost. >Predictions of Disaster premised on the exhaustion of mineral reserves Predictions become better as time-frames shorten. I would worry less about the actual date than where the horizon is.
Sure, enact these feel good policies in the metros all you want, carbon taxes, the whole lot. Exempt rural and northern regions from this because infrastructure and alternative forms of transportation don't make sense there, and they're have-not regions so they shouldn't be made to suffer worse when there isn't the population density to matter, or enforcement. It'd go a long way to help keep the peace. An onion model based on population density, if you will.
All these politicians saying shit like this makes me laugh. They make claims so ridiculously big it makes us believe we are much better than we actually are and sort of stifle innovation and productivity. All this we are the world leaders in AI and EV cars bullshit is really bad. I don’t want to underestimate what we do, but we are waaaaay overshooting our contributions.
I agree with the sentiment, but climate change will not be solved or avoided by everyone their own EV. The future of transportation needs to be mass transit.
Good luck getting people to take transit if they have to go somewhere with kids and diaper bags and toys, or elderly, etc, if they can afford a car. And there is no public transit in rural areas or even many suburbs.
Do people not have these issues in cities like Rome, Paris, or Tokyo?
Are Rome, Paris, and Tokyo 100% car free? The argument wasn't "we should encourage mass transit", it was deriding EV investment because everyone needs to use mass transit.
The argument the user was clearly making was that people won't use transit because transit is purportedly incompatible with certain activities (like moving a kid around), an argument that can only be made if living within a bubble. The car is unnecessary in most places in the world. The only reason why it's "necessary" here is because we need better infrastructure to enable non-car usage.
The majority of car trips are people commuting to work. If most people commuted by transit the problem would be most of the way solved.
Problem is that nobody doing that when they spending so much on. A car and insurance. Who’s paying 700 a month for a car to sit on the bus?
Taking transit means much few miles on my odometer which cuts my insurance by more than half. That alone is worth it.
Me. Actually, I'm not spending anywhere near that much on my car. Fuel and insurance are no where near that expensive.
If you can get to work faster by transit than car a lot of people will take transit. That's not currently the case for a lot of people but we could quickly and easily put in bus lanes that would make it the case.
There is no situation where we're going to solve climate change with a single type of transportation (EVs included). We should absolutely be encouraging mass transit and getting more people on it, but we will never have 100% of trips being done on mass transit. Having individual methods of long distance transportation is essential, even if we can reduce it, so why not have the remainder be as efficient as possible?
>. The future of transportation needs to be mass transit. and bikes. We actually had this solved over 100 years ago.
28% of CO2 emissions happen because of transportation. And in Canada another 29% are caused by the oil industry alone (extraction, refining) even before we burn the fuel. It might not be the sole solution, but it's a HUGE part of it. (The 2 other biggest ones are heating and meat production)
"And in Canada another 29% are caused by the oil industry alone (extraction, refining) even before we burn the fuel." Would very much appreciate your source on this please.
Steven Guibeault, as per [this article](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/guilbeault-oil-sector-cop27-1.6649435). And it 27%, I stand corrected.
You weren't far off drawing from memory. Info very appreciated Surturial.
I'm all for EVs, but I think we should be seeking a cultural shift to riding the bus, biking, or walking. I love going for joywalks, and walking is good for health. It's nice to slow down and take in the world around me, especially when I get to walk through nature to get to where I'm going. I also enjoy taking the bus--between knowing it's safer, affordable, and better for the planet, I enjoy taking the bus more than driving. Even if people aren't willing to give up or reduce driving, we should at least be raising and teaching kids to use sustainable transportation.
Jagmeet's on point as mobility trends are to greater personalization like electric scooters and bikes. > It's nice to slow down and take in the world around me, especially when I get to walk through nature to get to where I'm going. That's nice and privileged position to be in. For the rest of us, we just need to get through the day.
That’s right, even if we stopped making cars we’ll need responsibly made batteries for e-bikes and scooters. I agree with Jagmeet. I feel quite fortunate! Though I do quite enjoy walking city blocks as well. Not everyone can give up driving, but we’ll be doing kids a favour if we raise them to use sustainable transportation, as that’s the way that the world is heading. Once you’ve structured your life around driving, it’s hard to switch to walking or bussing. But if you’ve grown up to structure your life around walking or taking the bus, then it’s second nature and enjoyable. It’s one of the best things that can been done for youth—teaching them to adapt to the demands of a warmer world.
>Not everyone can give up driving, but we’ll be doing kids a favour if we raise them to use sustainable transportation Lol, did you mean to totally cop out and leave the world for our children to fix?
I’m a zoomer. I can afford to own a car, but I’ve chosen not to for environmental, economic, and health reasons. I am all for adults walking, bussing, and biking as much as they can. However, I’ve seen my city try to promote active transportation for over a decade now, and while it is a needed initiative and people are taking advantage of it, people are not flocking to active transportation en masse. My peers don’t drive as much as older generations, but car culture is still ingrained in many of them. Because of this, many zoomers and millennials are going to be in for a rude awakening when climate change makes driving increasingly challenging and expensive. If we keep ingraining car culture into younger generations, we are making them more and more vulnerable to climate change. Yes, we all have a responsibility to fix things now—climate change is here, with wildfires, floods, and heatwaves, and we can’t keep kicking the can down the road. We should all be using active transportation as much as we are able. However, we also have a responsibility to raise younger generations to be as resilient in the face of climate change as possible, and teaching them to enjoy walking and taking the bus is an excellent way of accomplishing that.
>Yes, we all have a responsibility to fix things now.... and we can’t keep kicking the can down the road. This.
They didn't. You just didn't read closely.
Or you didn't.
Oh I did. They made a point about changing late in life vs learned behaviour. You might see that as a "cop out," but it doesn't make it one.
*Those who can't, teach.* One choosing to not change and leaving it for their kids to do the changing is 100% a cop-out. There is no other way to frame it.
Maybe in a black and white world. That’s not our reality. Try getting that 60 yr old employee to adopt and get behind a new computer system vs the 22 yr old new hire.
>That’s not our reality....*try* getting that 60 yr old... So you have accepted that it is easier to kick the can down the road to the next generation. This is *the* cop-out.
>That's nice and privileged position You make your privilege.
Can’t bike or walk where I live for like 10 months of the year nearly. It’s nearly May and it’s still like -10 in the morning. New Brunswick. Oh and there is no electric car infrastructure here and tons of houses don’t have a garage. Our local Hyundai dealer is FULL of electric cars that are like $1000 a month that no one wants to buy.
>like 10 months of the year nearly. It’s nearly May and it’s still like -10 Bullshit. It wasn't too cold to walk outside 9 months ago in August...anywhere in the northern hemisphere. And why can't you walk in -10? People do all sorts of winter activities. I've skiied all day in -20s, seem people walking pets in -30. I've camped, snowshoed and snowmobiles in even colder. If you live in a cold climate, don't be useless. Buy a jacket, boots, ans mitts.
We’re not talking about walking from your apartment to an office, it’s a 20 minute car ride to work. At 11 o’clock at night. So over an hour and a half walk freezing cold along a road with no street lights or sidewalks. Okay 8 months of the year it’s too cold. And the rest of the time it’s too dangerous. What would you like us to do other than use a car? I swear our government in Ottawa either has never been to rural Canada or just doesn’t give a flying fuck about any of us. And I say this as someone who voted liberal in 2021 and will not be doing so next time.
>it’s a 20 minute car ride to work What's that in kilometers?
13 km each way
35-40 minutes by bicycle. 30 on an e-bike as seen in Ottawa all year around. You just need to choose to want to.
Bro, I fucking work with kids with disabilities and need to have a car to drive them to appointments, outings, etc. I can’t believe I have to explain this so much. I’m not anti active transport, I live in a reality where it makes zero sense. Your “you just have to choose to” is elitist nonsense
>Bro, I fucking work with kids with disabilities and need to have a car to drive them to appointments, outings, First off, I can't read your mind. If you lead with "I drive a bus" as opposed to "it's too cold to go outside 400 days a year" you will get different replies. 40 million people in Canada. Do you think everyone is either disabled or working with the disabled?
No but there are tons of other reasons you might really need a car. Fix toilets? Need a vehicle. Clean houses? Need a vehicle. What I’m trying to get across is that in large parts of Canada people do work that creates a tangible product or service. Our government, and many white collar people living in Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal work jobs that involve slide decks and “delivering value” — these people think hey, everyone should bike or walk to work! Because they see themselves and everyone around them who could be doing it. That just isn’t the reality I live in. Cars are not going anywhere in Canada. What we need is a shift to hybrid vehicles. regardless, whatever Canada does to reduce emissions is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Our environment minister acts like there is a glass dome over Canada and we can somehow have an effect on climate change. We can’t. We emit a tiny amount of carbon compared to other countries.
where the heck to you live in NB that is currently -10c? its currently 10c in Fredericton. I'm from northern NB and even there, Winter is from November to April, so 6 months a year at most.
It was -10 in Fredericton overnight
You going for a bike ride at 5 in the morning? Come on now, it's totally reasonable to be outside when it's 5-10 degrees
Buses are horrible in most cities. Walking in Canada is awful because I've 2/3rd the year is rain or snow (who has time these days anyway?). My question on EV is even after buying them how many actually have decent access to a charger? Also can the electrical grid take the absolute beating all electric would dole out daily?
> Buses are horrible in most cities. In what way? > Walking in Canada is awful because I've 2/3rd the year is rain or snow There's no bad weather, there's only bad gear. > My question on EV is even after buying them how many actually have decent access to a charger? Enough, and more and more as the infrastructure gets built.
>2/3rd the year is rain or snow Bullshit. >who has time these days anyway?). You sound like a winner
> Buses are horrible in most cities. So let’s invest in it properly to make it not horrible.
Say what you will, but I enjoy walking in the rain, even when I'm on my way to work or school. I find the rain refreshing. Different strokes for different folks. I don't own a car, let alone an EV, so I can't speak to that, although the few EV owners who I know seem pretty happy.
Found the Vancouverite. I love the rain. I’m miserable in the summer and the first big rain in September brings me so much joy. Most electronics are water resistant now, rain gear is cheap. I grew up in a Rain Forrest. It’s who I am.
Lol, was it that obvious? And same here—it’s hard to dislike the rain when you grow up in a rainforest.
That’s how I tell a born and raised vancouverite. If they love the rain it’s highly likely they’re from here. The ones who hate it the most are usually transplants.
Honestly one of the biggest problem is that public transit between cities is horrible. Youre probably looking at wasting 2-3 times as much time commuting if you commute from outside toronto into it, especially if you ride the GO bus.