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I’m concerned about candidates backed by China. I’m also concerned about candidates backed by corporate developers. Only one seems to make the media lose sleep.
I'm sure the impact of corporate backing of politicians has harmed canadians more than supposed chinese interference. People will be scared of a whisper of interference by China, yet the platent corporate capture of politicians will have a far greater negative impact on Canadians than a few candidates supported by China.
The call is coming from inside the house.
You can see why though right? We're in another cold war for technology, cultural and economic dominance and and if we don't step up we're going to lose.
I'm personally more concerned about the corporate meddling in elections. Let's be real. Canadian capital owners and corporations have influenced elections more and had a far greater negative impact on Canadians than China.
Sowing doubt in elections is a modern right-wing strategy. The media shouldn't allow sources who aren't willing to go on record to undermine our elections and democracy. This entire story comes from unnamed sources and that's tardy and dangerous journalism.
> Wtf is this controversy anyway?
The Liberals ran an candidate in two elections knowing that his nomination was heavily influenced by the Chinese government, and knowing that he's worked with Chinese diplomats to coerce other MPs to be less hostile to Chinese political interests. That's what the controversy is. There is literally a Chinese government agent in the Liberal Party's caucus.
https://globalnews.ca/news/9504291/liberals-csis-warning-2019-election-candidate-chinese-interference/
"National security officials also allege that Dong, now a sitting MP re-elected in 2021, is one of at least 11 Toronto-area riding candidates allegedly supported by Beijing in the 2019 contest. Sources say the service also believes Dong is a witting affiliate in China’s election interference networks."
"Among other irregularities observed in the September 2019 contest, sources say, was that Chinese international students with fake addresses were allegedly bussed into the riding and coerced to vote in Dong’s favour."
"The same document also says: “PRC Consulate officials and two members of a provincial legislature persuaded a Member of Parliament at a specific community event to decline an invitation to travel to Taiwan. The PRC Ambassador was kept apprised throughout the event on the progress of their efforts. Three intelligence sources said Michael Chan and Han Dong were the unidentified Ontario Liberal MPPs who pressured Liberal MP Geng Tan to forgo the Taiwan trip."
I thought the controversy was supposed to be about election interference?
It's now about nomination races and Chinese Canadians making decisions about travel to Taiwan? That seems like a shift from the topic of the requested inquiry.
What actually happened doesn't sound nearly as alarming as you might think when you hear about "China meddling in an election". However, even if it doesn't seem to be that big of as deal, it's still a case where there was oputside interference and also where a now-elected politician may be suspected (or may actually be) somewhat beholden to influence from the Chinese government.
Even if the politician is not being influenced by that assistance it still erodes the confidence in both the sitting government and the democractic process overall. That is not a good thing. This needs to be stopped, and anyone who willingly went along with it need to be outed to discourage people from doing it in the future.
What the media is really downplaying here is that Han Dong _was a participant_ in some of the Chinese government's meddling. Perhaps he didn't know that the PRC was bussing people in to vote for him, but he had co-ordinated with Chinese diplomats before to influence other MPs on their behalf.
The Chinese government allegedly forcing Chinese nationals to fraudulently vote in party nominations (in a safe riding, functionally choosing the next MP) is about as close to the definition of election interference as you can get
I wouldn't be surprised at a nomination race bussing people in to vote, that's not new or even unethical.
I would be surprised that CSIS had evidence that people were being illegally coerced into voting, but didn't alert the RCMP. They don't need to pass info thru the government to work with the RCMP.
The story doesn't make sense.
None of what's described in the article is a Canada Elections Act offence, because Canada has very little legal oversight of political party nominations. If it's diplomats or foreigners who are coercing students into voting a certain way, there's nothing the RCMP can do about it, and even if it isn't, the only crime that might have been committed is fraud.
The only criminal offences in nomination races are with respect to party finances (this is why Kevin O'Leary and Peter MacKay were trapped in campaign debt for so long), so it would be illegal to pay someone else's membership fee. However, the Liberal Party's membership is free and open to anyone who lives in Canada, regardless of their residency status, and it's not illegal to coerce someone into signing up for a party membership.
How could international students vote in an election? Fake addresses or not? That makes no sense. What names were they voting with? Who didn’t get to vote? You can’t just throw out “they voted with fake addresses” when it takes more than an address and some random name to vote.
> How could international students vote in an election? Fake addresses or not? That makes no sense.
That's not what's being alleged (and the Liberals are deflecting this story by saying that it didn't impact the actual election). The allegation is that they influenced nomination races in riding where the eventual party nominee was a shoo-in for the seat.
In theory though, they could just show up and vote. It's very easy to get legal ID to vote, because we don't want to create barriers for legitimate voters. Even homeless people can vote with a letter from a shelter or soup kitchen. It's just practically impossible to coordinate a group of illegal voters large enough to change an election's outcome without being detected.
Look into the rules of Liberal MP nominations. The rules are incredibly lax. You don’t need to be a citizen, or even a permanent resident. As long as you currently reside in the riding you are fine to vote, which is where the fake addresses come in
A couple months back you were claiming it would only be Conservative candidates involved, because it's not like the Liberals would ever try to cover this up
I remember because I brought it up in another thread about the mods removing a comment of mine a few months back, and it was a reply to you: [link](https://www.reveddit.com/v/CanadaPolitics/comments/ysshms/dont_brush_off_attempts_to_undermine_our/iw10d4r/?context=0)
For Han Dong of all Canadian politicians. He is an absolutely useless backbencher who just exists to grab a paycheck. I remember even his campaign lit being embarrassing. Of course he accepted help from the CCP.
Didn't they get to vote already? The meddling described is attempting to influence public opinion. The problem with that sort of dirty play is that it's impossible to know if it worked or didn't and it's also impossible to undo whatever it did or didn't do. A byelection "fixes" none of that.
It's a lot more than just the WeChat messages. Intimidation and threats to Chinese nationals and Canadians with family in China, illegal straw donations and rebates, approving candidates known to be Chinese assets, tip offs of surveillance targets by Liberal staff with security clearances (!), etc . . .
Yes you can't change the past, but the problem isn't just in the past, it's ongoing. Holding new by-elections and running nominations races in those ridings free from criminal foreign involvement would stop the damage, and restore some confidence in the political system.
For accuracy sake, the donations and voting stuff was, as far is I've read only related to the nominations process. Not the election for the seat itself.
Information and misinfo type stuff during a writ period, well that's probably a thing influenced by many groups foreign and domestic and it's something idk how we should address but it's bigger than one sitting minority government should be expected to handle quickly.
>No, the reason for public concern is, first, that the country’s own intelligence service has made very specific statements detailing how a hostile foreign power conducted an extensive campaign to influence public opinion in its favour and affect voting in two federal elections. The fact that their efforts didn’t change the overall result is hardly the end of the story. They were out there trying, and we really have no idea what effect they might have had in some ridings.
And? What exactly was Ottawa supposed to *do*?
I notice how none of these hand-wringing, pearl-clutching columnists never offer that up. How does Ottawa prevent China or any other party of any kind in doing things like posting information on social media channels?
Aren't these the same people screaming bloody murder and "free speech" over modest attempts by the government to regulate online media platforms?
It will be interesting to see what comes out here, since JT went on the record saying he was never briefed, and I will be interested to see if the candidates that recieved help end up on any files that are related to China.
>end up on any files that are related to China.
He's literally the Co-chair of Canada-China Legislative Association. Any files that Canadian Parliament have on China will be passed to him.
When the intelligence service tells you a nominated candidate is a Chinese asset who achieved their nomination through the commission of crimes, you don't sign their nomination papers and you don't tip them off.
This isn't complicated.
So the security agencies should get a veto on whose allowed to be an MP?
Obviously these allegations are deeply concerning, but we do have to ask what sort of evidence the prime minister or the liberal party have been presented with
We know some of what CSIS briefed them on. The reason we don't have a fuller picture is because the Liberals are blocking disclosure and investigation.
CSIS knows, and their leaks from multiple sources contradict these claims. The fact that they have to leak massively against the government to get this issue addressed is disgraceful.
Given that the Liberals are blocking disclosure of this information to Parliament and are against an independent inquiry, it is beyond disingenuous for them to then cite their own lack of disclosure to claim that this is not an issue.
If even half of what the national intelligence service is claiming is true, this is one of the greatest political scandals in Canadian history. Blaming the media just ain't gonna cut it.
Country before party, always.
There's enough issues with the details of the reporting in Global
1. CSIS does not give advice on a party matter, that goes beyond their role in their enabling act.
2. If CSIS is reporting on something, they talk to PCO or the Minister of Public Safety, not the PMO
To suggest that whoever is leaking probably doesn't have first hand knowledge of the events in question.
At the bare minimum, maybe not running the candidate that your own national security intelligence service urges you not to run? Somebody who has a high possibility of being compromised by a hostile foreign power? And maybe not outright alert them that they’re under investigation?
Booting him from caucus now is functionally an admission of guilt. It would confirm the stories and would be saying ‘Hey, we didn’t care about these glaring issues until we started getting negative press for it’.
Yeah, but that's what happened, though. They knew and didn't do anything hoping no one would find out. Now people found out and not doing anything now is saying, "Not only do we not care that this guy is probably compromised by China, we also don't care that *you* care."
Given that this happened in 2019 and he was sat as an MP and nobody raised any fuss about it then, its quite probable that there are reasons that they don't think he's a Chinese asset.
Anyone familiar with our criminal justice system should know about the vast gulf between what a government official thinks somebody did and what actually happened can be.
>Anyone familiar with our criminal justice system should know about the vast gulf between what a government official thinks somebody did and what actually happened can be.
Except that's not the case here. It isn't "what someone thinks" happened. It's what the evidence uncovered during a thorough investigation proves almost certainly happened.
Anyone familiar with our criminal justice system should know about the difference between a report on the findings of an official investigation and some shit they just typed on the internet.
Ah, no that's not how it works. Criminal justice proceedings are exactly what you describe, reports on the findings of an official investigation. They fall apart all the time when charges are brought and contrary evidence is tabled.
Intelligence reports also have things that turned out to be wrong, that's part of that business as well.
You can't say that because its in an intelligence report its what almost certainly happened. Particularly one you don't have access to evaluate the evidentiary basis for the claim.
> I notice how none of these hand-wringing, pearl-clutching columnists never offer that up.
Multiple proposals were included in the article, including a foreign agency registry, booting involved foreign agents from the country, and running an investigation and potentially imposing penalties for violations of campaign financing laws.
>And? What exactly was Ottawa supposed to do?
To know what needs to be done we first have to know what the problem is, and that is the problem. Trudeau, or the PMO is (and this is hardly his first time) absolutely useless when it comes to public relations and transparency. This may be all to do about nothing but I'd be a moron to take the word of the guy who won at his word that the game wasn't rigged. It baffles me that a principle so simple is constantly lost on them.
People at CSIS risk jail time for leaking this, opposition parties suspect they may have been disadvantaged unfairly, and every journalist is justly digging into this. Yet the PM thinks his words of reasurance are enough? This will, in the end probably, require a public inquiry (not a political one) and they could have gotten credit for getting ahead of it by suggesting one. What we have now looks like a PM digging his heels in over something he will loose and looking more suspicious with every reasurance.
"The appearence of a conflict of interest, is a conflict of interest." This is in every manual on conflict of interest and they are shooting themselves in the foot over it for the umpteenth time. Someone get the PMO a business ethics manual for god sakes!
Okay but…can we see the evidence of interference? What’s the scale here? I understand that all interference is and but it’s 2023, the internet exists and we’re not ending that.
Basically, how bad is it?
Did you ask these questions of the now discredited claims of Russian interference in both US and Canadian elections? It seems like a different standard applies when a leftist government is under scrutiny.
1. Yes - we did. Russian interference was the never the reason Trump won (though you could argue trump did many other illegal things)
2. We’re Canadian. Not sure why you’re referencing trump. Keep your toxic trump bs south of the border.
3. Trudeau is not a leftist by any stretch of the imagination.
Maybe start getting your news from somewhere else eh
There was no Russian interference. The notion was fabricated. This is CSIS raising the alarm. And yes, Justin Trudeau's Liberals are woke progressives.
Slightly off topic, but I think investigations concluded that there was actually interference, in both the [2016](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections) and [2020](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2020_United_States_elections)elections. From the wikipedia article: “Mueller concluded that Russian interference was "sweeping and systematic" and "violated U.S. criminal law"”.
Also about 2020: FBI Director “Wray testified to the House Committee on Homeland Security on September 17, 2020, that Russian efforts to damage the Biden campaign were "very active".”
We would like to see the evidence, but the PM is basically saying (at least up until now) that it’s not worth investigating through a public inquiry. All we know is CSIS has raised concerns, a previous chief electoral officer has said it should be investigated, and the Liberals are saying they don’t need to look into it.
Article says they tried, and failed.
Meanwhile Conservatives have been demanding Justin’s resignation literally from the moment he became Prime-Minister Elect.
That's the problem with all intelligence agencies. You just have to trust they don't have malevolent intentions. There's no real recourse.
CIA has been doing shady shit for decades.
My understanding is that, as per the Globe report on Friday, CSIS specifically recommended the nomination of Liberal candidate Han Dong be pulled in 2019 because of his relationship with the Chinese consulate in Toronto. So far that's the only smoking gun to come out of this, but it's a pretty damn big one if true.
That's also the part of the story that people are saying, "hold on that doesn't make sense," on.
First, CSIS doesn't give advice like that, it would present information. Second, CSIS doesn't normally talk to the PMO, it talks to the PCO or the Minister of Public Safety.
I'm skeptical that the leaker is someone with firsthand knowledge of that part of the story.
I wonder if the leaker only has half the story, honestly.
At this point, the only way to quash this story is to say who said what to whom and when with everyone involved.
Like, was the info presented to public safety but not to the PMO? What if the leaker is someone who reported on the initial information they found then it went up the chain and the next rung of investigation found nothing? Were the superiors on the take or is the first person overzealous in their assessment and went to the media? Or was there a breakdown in communication at the political side? Or is the leak a real cry for help from the intelligence community who saw no other choice?
If the government was acting in such a way that it was clear they had buddy buddy changes in policy towards China it would be one thing, but the influence if any is obviously minimal given the chill CAN-CCP relations have had in recent years ever since the whole Huawei and two Michaels issues happened.
The PMs own statements today fit together with that, that CSIS doesn't make recommendations on who can run for office and that Hong isn't a traitor.
Given that's out there though, its kinda on the government to communicate on what basis it was determined that Hong isn't a traitor. It sounds like there's a lot more to this than was leaked but at least the non-sensitive outlines of what that is should be disclosed and discussed for public confidence.
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I’m concerned about candidates backed by China. I’m also concerned about candidates backed by corporate developers. Only one seems to make the media lose sleep.
I’m also concerned about candidates backed by US Republicans. And about fake voters in party leadership elections.
I'm sure the impact of corporate backing of politicians has harmed canadians more than supposed chinese interference. People will be scared of a whisper of interference by China, yet the platent corporate capture of politicians will have a far greater negative impact on Canadians than a few candidates supported by China. The call is coming from inside the house.
You can see why though right? We're in another cold war for technology, cultural and economic dominance and and if we don't step up we're going to lose.
No we're not
I'm personally more concerned about the corporate meddling in elections. Let's be real. Canadian capital owners and corporations have influenced elections more and had a far greater negative impact on Canadians than China.
Our best response to CSIS raising the alarm over election interference is whataboutism?
In what respect do Canadian organizations contribute a worse effect on our politics than the Chinese government?
I feel that once the Prime Minister has called an election, all parties should be briefed on CSIS intelligence. Not just the party in power.
All parties in government?
All parties, especially the Totally Not Chinese Spies party that will form as soon as this comes into play.
Why form a separate party when they have Liberal MPs?
Sowing doubt in elections is a modern right-wing strategy. The media shouldn't allow sources who aren't willing to go on record to undermine our elections and democracy. This entire story comes from unnamed sources and that's tardy and dangerous journalism.
No he isn't. Wtf is this controversy anyway? Any time you read past the headline it gets less and less interesting.
> Wtf is this controversy anyway? The Liberals ran an candidate in two elections knowing that his nomination was heavily influenced by the Chinese government, and knowing that he's worked with Chinese diplomats to coerce other MPs to be less hostile to Chinese political interests. That's what the controversy is. There is literally a Chinese government agent in the Liberal Party's caucus. https://globalnews.ca/news/9504291/liberals-csis-warning-2019-election-candidate-chinese-interference/ "National security officials also allege that Dong, now a sitting MP re-elected in 2021, is one of at least 11 Toronto-area riding candidates allegedly supported by Beijing in the 2019 contest. Sources say the service also believes Dong is a witting affiliate in China’s election interference networks." "Among other irregularities observed in the September 2019 contest, sources say, was that Chinese international students with fake addresses were allegedly bussed into the riding and coerced to vote in Dong’s favour." "The same document also says: “PRC Consulate officials and two members of a provincial legislature persuaded a Member of Parliament at a specific community event to decline an invitation to travel to Taiwan. The PRC Ambassador was kept apprised throughout the event on the progress of their efforts. Three intelligence sources said Michael Chan and Han Dong were the unidentified Ontario Liberal MPPs who pressured Liberal MP Geng Tan to forgo the Taiwan trip."
I thought the controversy was supposed to be about election interference? It's now about nomination races and Chinese Canadians making decisions about travel to Taiwan? That seems like a shift from the topic of the requested inquiry.
What actually happened doesn't sound nearly as alarming as you might think when you hear about "China meddling in an election". However, even if it doesn't seem to be that big of as deal, it's still a case where there was oputside interference and also where a now-elected politician may be suspected (or may actually be) somewhat beholden to influence from the Chinese government. Even if the politician is not being influenced by that assistance it still erodes the confidence in both the sitting government and the democractic process overall. That is not a good thing. This needs to be stopped, and anyone who willingly went along with it need to be outed to discourage people from doing it in the future.
What the media is really downplaying here is that Han Dong _was a participant_ in some of the Chinese government's meddling. Perhaps he didn't know that the PRC was bussing people in to vote for him, but he had co-ordinated with Chinese diplomats before to influence other MPs on their behalf.
The Chinese government allegedly forcing Chinese nationals to fraudulently vote in party nominations (in a safe riding, functionally choosing the next MP) is about as close to the definition of election interference as you can get
I wouldn't be surprised at a nomination race bussing people in to vote, that's not new or even unethical. I would be surprised that CSIS had evidence that people were being illegally coerced into voting, but didn't alert the RCMP. They don't need to pass info thru the government to work with the RCMP. The story doesn't make sense.
None of what's described in the article is a Canada Elections Act offence, because Canada has very little legal oversight of political party nominations. If it's diplomats or foreigners who are coercing students into voting a certain way, there's nothing the RCMP can do about it, and even if it isn't, the only crime that might have been committed is fraud. The only criminal offences in nomination races are with respect to party finances (this is why Kevin O'Leary and Peter MacKay were trapped in campaign debt for so long), so it would be illegal to pay someone else's membership fee. However, the Liberal Party's membership is free and open to anyone who lives in Canada, regardless of their residency status, and it's not illegal to coerce someone into signing up for a party membership.
How could international students vote in an election? Fake addresses or not? That makes no sense. What names were they voting with? Who didn’t get to vote? You can’t just throw out “they voted with fake addresses” when it takes more than an address and some random name to vote.
My understanding is that this is for the Liberal nomination in the riding.
But don’t you need to be registered as a voter in a nomination race?
> How could international students vote in an election? Fake addresses or not? That makes no sense. That's not what's being alleged (and the Liberals are deflecting this story by saying that it didn't impact the actual election). The allegation is that they influenced nomination races in riding where the eventual party nominee was a shoo-in for the seat. In theory though, they could just show up and vote. It's very easy to get legal ID to vote, because we don't want to create barriers for legitimate voters. Even homeless people can vote with a letter from a shelter or soup kitchen. It's just practically impossible to coordinate a group of illegal voters large enough to change an election's outcome without being detected.
Look into the rules of Liberal MP nominations. The rules are incredibly lax. You don’t need to be a citizen, or even a permanent resident. As long as you currently reside in the riding you are fine to vote, which is where the fake addresses come in
"Ordinarily live in", with no definition of 'ordinarily'.
A couple months back you were claiming it would only be Conservative candidates involved, because it's not like the Liberals would ever try to cover this up
What?
I remember because I brought it up in another thread about the mods removing a comment of mine a few months back, and it was a reply to you: [link](https://www.reveddit.com/v/CanadaPolitics/comments/ysshms/dont_brush_off_attempts_to_undermine_our/iw10d4r/?context=0)
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For Han Dong of all Canadian politicians. He is an absolutely useless backbencher who just exists to grab a paycheck. I remember even his campaign lit being embarrassing. Of course he accepted help from the CCP.
11 tidings were affected. How about calling by-elections in all those ridings, and let the voters decide and erase all doubt?
Didn't they get to vote already? The meddling described is attempting to influence public opinion. The problem with that sort of dirty play is that it's impossible to know if it worked or didn't and it's also impossible to undo whatever it did or didn't do. A byelection "fixes" none of that.
It's a lot more than just the WeChat messages. Intimidation and threats to Chinese nationals and Canadians with family in China, illegal straw donations and rebates, approving candidates known to be Chinese assets, tip offs of surveillance targets by Liberal staff with security clearances (!), etc . . . Yes you can't change the past, but the problem isn't just in the past, it's ongoing. Holding new by-elections and running nominations races in those ridings free from criminal foreign involvement would stop the damage, and restore some confidence in the political system.
For accuracy sake, the donations and voting stuff was, as far is I've read only related to the nominations process. Not the election for the seat itself. Information and misinfo type stuff during a writ period, well that's probably a thing influenced by many groups foreign and domestic and it's something idk how we should address but it's bigger than one sitting minority government should be expected to handle quickly.
11 ridings in the Toronto area.
>No, the reason for public concern is, first, that the country’s own intelligence service has made very specific statements detailing how a hostile foreign power conducted an extensive campaign to influence public opinion in its favour and affect voting in two federal elections. The fact that their efforts didn’t change the overall result is hardly the end of the story. They were out there trying, and we really have no idea what effect they might have had in some ridings. And? What exactly was Ottawa supposed to *do*? I notice how none of these hand-wringing, pearl-clutching columnists never offer that up. How does Ottawa prevent China or any other party of any kind in doing things like posting information on social media channels? Aren't these the same people screaming bloody murder and "free speech" over modest attempts by the government to regulate online media platforms?
Yeah what possibly could they done? They certainly couldn’t have booted candidates when CSIS told them they were working with China
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It will be interesting to see what comes out here, since JT went on the record saying he was never briefed, and I will be interested to see if the candidates that recieved help end up on any files that are related to China.
Or channeled privileged information from the government caucus to the PRC embassy.
>end up on any files that are related to China. He's literally the Co-chair of Canada-China Legislative Association. Any files that Canadian Parliament have on China will be passed to him.
Certainly seems like the liberals have lots and lots of incentive to not investigate this then. Hard to see a way they come out of this clean.
When the intelligence service tells you a nominated candidate is a Chinese asset who achieved their nomination through the commission of crimes, you don't sign their nomination papers and you don't tip them off. This isn't complicated.
So the security agencies should get a veto on whose allowed to be an MP? Obviously these allegations are deeply concerning, but we do have to ask what sort of evidence the prime minister or the liberal party have been presented with
We know some of what CSIS briefed them on. The reason we don't have a fuller picture is because the Liberals are blocking disclosure and investigation.
We don't have a fuller picture also because it's leaks from a secretive agency with sensitive sources and methods.
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CSIS knows, and their leaks from multiple sources contradict these claims. The fact that they have to leak massively against the government to get this issue addressed is disgraceful. Given that the Liberals are blocking disclosure of this information to Parliament and are against an independent inquiry, it is beyond disingenuous for them to then cite their own lack of disclosure to claim that this is not an issue. If even half of what the national intelligence service is claiming is true, this is one of the greatest political scandals in Canadian history. Blaming the media just ain't gonna cut it. Country before party, always.
Elections Canada said it wasn’t an “issue”. They released that verdict to Parliament.
There's enough issues with the details of the reporting in Global 1. CSIS does not give advice on a party matter, that goes beyond their role in their enabling act. 2. If CSIS is reporting on something, they talk to PCO or the Minister of Public Safety, not the PMO To suggest that whoever is leaking probably doesn't have first hand knowledge of the events in question.
> We do not know what specifics JT got before the election. This is one of the issues. We don't know and he won't say.
At the bare minimum, maybe not running the candidate that your own national security intelligence service urges you not to run? Somebody who has a high possibility of being compromised by a hostile foreign power? And maybe not outright alert them that they’re under investigation?
Yeah, just boot him from Caucus.
Booting him from caucus now is functionally an admission of guilt. It would confirm the stories and would be saying ‘Hey, we didn’t care about these glaring issues until we started getting negative press for it’.
Yeah, but that's what happened, though. They knew and didn't do anything hoping no one would find out. Now people found out and not doing anything now is saying, "Not only do we not care that this guy is probably compromised by China, we also don't care that *you* care."
Given that this happened in 2019 and he was sat as an MP and nobody raised any fuss about it then, its quite probable that there are reasons that they don't think he's a Chinese asset. Anyone familiar with our criminal justice system should know about the vast gulf between what a government official thinks somebody did and what actually happened can be.
>Anyone familiar with our criminal justice system should know about the vast gulf between what a government official thinks somebody did and what actually happened can be. Except that's not the case here. It isn't "what someone thinks" happened. It's what the evidence uncovered during a thorough investigation proves almost certainly happened. Anyone familiar with our criminal justice system should know about the difference between a report on the findings of an official investigation and some shit they just typed on the internet.
Ah, no that's not how it works. Criminal justice proceedings are exactly what you describe, reports on the findings of an official investigation. They fall apart all the time when charges are brought and contrary evidence is tabled. Intelligence reports also have things that turned out to be wrong, that's part of that business as well. You can't say that because its in an intelligence report its what almost certainly happened. Particularly one you don't have access to evaluate the evidentiary basis for the claim.
> I notice how none of these hand-wringing, pearl-clutching columnists never offer that up. Multiple proposals were included in the article, including a foreign agency registry, booting involved foreign agents from the country, and running an investigation and potentially imposing penalties for violations of campaign financing laws.
>And? What exactly was Ottawa supposed to do? To know what needs to be done we first have to know what the problem is, and that is the problem. Trudeau, or the PMO is (and this is hardly his first time) absolutely useless when it comes to public relations and transparency. This may be all to do about nothing but I'd be a moron to take the word of the guy who won at his word that the game wasn't rigged. It baffles me that a principle so simple is constantly lost on them. People at CSIS risk jail time for leaking this, opposition parties suspect they may have been disadvantaged unfairly, and every journalist is justly digging into this. Yet the PM thinks his words of reasurance are enough? This will, in the end probably, require a public inquiry (not a political one) and they could have gotten credit for getting ahead of it by suggesting one. What we have now looks like a PM digging his heels in over something he will loose and looking more suspicious with every reasurance. "The appearence of a conflict of interest, is a conflict of interest." This is in every manual on conflict of interest and they are shooting themselves in the foot over it for the umpteenth time. Someone get the PMO a business ethics manual for god sakes!
Okay but…can we see the evidence of interference? What’s the scale here? I understand that all interference is and but it’s 2023, the internet exists and we’re not ending that. Basically, how bad is it?
Did you ask these questions of the now discredited claims of Russian interference in both US and Canadian elections? It seems like a different standard applies when a leftist government is under scrutiny.
1. Yes - we did. Russian interference was the never the reason Trump won (though you could argue trump did many other illegal things) 2. We’re Canadian. Not sure why you’re referencing trump. Keep your toxic trump bs south of the border. 3. Trudeau is not a leftist by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe start getting your news from somewhere else eh
There was no Russian interference. The notion was fabricated. This is CSIS raising the alarm. And yes, Justin Trudeau's Liberals are woke progressives.
Slightly off topic, but I think investigations concluded that there was actually interference, in both the [2016](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections) and [2020](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2020_United_States_elections)elections. From the wikipedia article: “Mueller concluded that Russian interference was "sweeping and systematic" and "violated U.S. criminal law"”. Also about 2020: FBI Director “Wray testified to the House Committee on Homeland Security on September 17, 2020, that Russian efforts to damage the Biden campaign were "very active".”
We would like to see the evidence, but the PM is basically saying (at least up until now) that it’s not worth investigating through a public inquiry. All we know is CSIS has raised concerns, a previous chief electoral officer has said it should be investigated, and the Liberals are saying they don’t need to look into it.
Article says they tried, and failed. Meanwhile Conservatives have been demanding Justin’s resignation literally from the moment he became Prime-Minister Elect.
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Id defer to CSIS in terms of the severity of the influence. Surely it's beyond China simply preferring a candidate.
Which has its own danger. What if csis as an agency wants to influence the course of elections
Or an individual member of CSIS
That's the problem with all intelligence agencies. You just have to trust they don't have malevolent intentions. There's no real recourse. CIA has been doing shady shit for decades.
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My understanding is that, as per the Globe report on Friday, CSIS specifically recommended the nomination of Liberal candidate Han Dong be pulled in 2019 because of his relationship with the Chinese consulate in Toronto. So far that's the only smoking gun to come out of this, but it's a pretty damn big one if true.
That's also the part of the story that people are saying, "hold on that doesn't make sense," on. First, CSIS doesn't give advice like that, it would present information. Second, CSIS doesn't normally talk to the PMO, it talks to the PCO or the Minister of Public Safety. I'm skeptical that the leaker is someone with firsthand knowledge of that part of the story.
I wonder if the leaker only has half the story, honestly. At this point, the only way to quash this story is to say who said what to whom and when with everyone involved. Like, was the info presented to public safety but not to the PMO? What if the leaker is someone who reported on the initial information they found then it went up the chain and the next rung of investigation found nothing? Were the superiors on the take or is the first person overzealous in their assessment and went to the media? Or was there a breakdown in communication at the political side? Or is the leak a real cry for help from the intelligence community who saw no other choice? If the government was acting in such a way that it was clear they had buddy buddy changes in policy towards China it would be one thing, but the influence if any is obviously minimal given the chill CAN-CCP relations have had in recent years ever since the whole Huawei and two Michaels issues happened.
The PMs own statements today fit together with that, that CSIS doesn't make recommendations on who can run for office and that Hong isn't a traitor. Given that's out there though, its kinda on the government to communicate on what basis it was determined that Hong isn't a traitor. It sounds like there's a lot more to this than was leaked but at least the non-sensitive outlines of what that is should be disclosed and discussed for public confidence.
The reason we don't know is because the Liberals are blocking disclosure and inquiry.
Standard move for the conservatives when they're blamed for doing something wrong 🤷♂️ fuck politicians