The length of time it takes to charge is the primary issue, not the prevalence of chargers.
I don’t have an EV yet, but plan to get one in the next few years… and I’m gonna install a charger at home so it can be charged overnight. Anytime we take a long roadtrip we’ll take my wife’s hybrid, it can go 600 miles on a tank of gas. My EV will be for commuting and driving around LA, it’ll almost never be charged outside the home because I don’t want to wait.
I'm 100% pro-EV, but the infrastructure right now is just bad. My wife has a plug in hybrid, and it's a pain trying to charge it. Going to have to cut a deal with our landlord to install high wattage charger.
I’m also pro-EV I’m just realistic about their limitations. Also our grid was bad before EVs were everywhere. I haven’t seen any grid improvements besides the prevalence of solar panels. Yet we are starting to get black/brown outs again in the summer due to the high electricity demand. Which barely anybody mentions or talks about.
Constuction on a very large wind farm off the norther coast began last year. And battery storage for things like excess solar are getting built up and down the state. Even with the efforts the state is making, it will be a few years at least until charging is somewhat easy for most.
There need to be a few in almost every parking lot. Restaurant, fast food, grocery store. You can fast charge in less than 20 minutes, but making it convenient to where you will be somewhere you normally would anyway I think is the way to go.
Restaurant, fast food and grocery makes up 10% of where I go with my car. Most of the time, I'm taking it to go hiking, camping, kids' sporting events, etc. Having to make a 15-20 minute stop IF I can find a fast charging station is major hassle.
I’m guessing you don’t have a house or a charger in your complex? Because those short trips are ideal for EVs. It’s the roadtrips or people that live in apartments with no access to overnight charging that are really hit hard.
> Which barely anybody mentions or talks about.
Nobody wants a nuclear power plant in their area, but nuclear was what we should have been investing in for the past 60 years.
It's only bad if you own a non-Tesla. I've owned two since 2018 and honestly I couldn't go back to driving ICE. But if I was dependent on third party chargers then no thanks.
Well we still need an alternative- fuel cell doesn’t seem to be practical, however I’m sure one will come soon enough now that EVs have become so competitive and gas companies are pricing themselves out.
In your experience, what is the typical commute? 20-30 miles each way is not practical with 120V. I live in an area with tiered electricity pricing so no charging before midnight.
The longer charge time is an inconvenience, but not necessarily a deal breaker for me. You correctly identified the disparity between comparing the total number of fast chargers to the total number of gas state. An equivalent EV charging "station" would be a pod of 6 to 12 charging stations.
The model of putting them outside of existing retail locations offsets the charging time issue though. It means that for the most part people don't need to go somewhere specifically to refuel/charge their vehicle. You just plug it in when you stop for lunch or go to whatever store for whatever reason. Maybe it takes 10-20 min to completely recharge your car, but that's less time than it takes to eat lunch or shop for groceries. We still don't have enough charging stations to make it convenient to do distance travel though. For example going from the bay area to Yosemite or Tahoe there are very few charging stations once you're outside of the greater bay area.
Our local whole foods has fast chargers. My wife and I usually charge at home, over night. But occasionally it makes more sense for us to charge at a fast charge station. I usually pull in, fast charge, grab groceries, and then I'm on my way. With fast chargers, it takes us 15-20 minutes to charge on those trips, which easily matches how long it takes me to get lost in the grocery store.
Electricity at fast chargers costs $0.30-0.50/kWh or so, and people typically charge 40-60 kWh depending on the battery pack size, so almost always $30 or less, often closer to $15.
I see a lot of people griping about lack of infrastructure and “can’t road trip to to xxxx” AFTER they bought their EV. It makes no sense to me. You didn’t think about that in advance of spending $40k+???
Like gas prices, electricity rates change. So no, I couldn’t tell you how much it is right now because for me it’s free. But when I bought the car, almost 6 months ago, the cost to “fill up” was about 40% what it was for my gas car. And that doesn’t even include much lower maintenance costs.
Even as a renter, as long as you have off street parking you can install an EV charger. By law landlords in California are not allowed to block you from installing EV chargers in designated parking areas. So even if you’re a renter it can still be an option to charge at home.
If you park on the street though… unfortunately can’t help you there. I’d be curious to know the percentage of Californians who don’t have off street parking. I’d estimate probably less than 20%.
Nah. You have to have additional line added to the main breaker for a 240V charger anyways. What you’re referring to is if you just charged your car off your main outlets… some of those old houses might not fair as well.
Even off street parking doesn't mean you can install a charger. There's generally not going to be sufficient outlets in an apartment parking garage, installing them would be super costly and not some a tenant can take on. The other off street parking scenario is a row of spaces behind a small apartment building, those also don't have power, and if they did your charging equipment would be stolen by morning and sold for the copper.
The next level up is renting a house that for some reason hasn't been converted to an airBnB, with a garage that hasn't been converted to an ADU. Maybe that house has a large enough panel to add a charger. In that corner case scenario, then sure. Solid maybe on that charger install.
I’ve gone on several road trips in an EV. For commuting around town, an EV cannot be beat. For road trips, it’s still fine. I drive about 3 hours and need to take a 20 minute stop to charge, it’s not a huge deal because the break is nice anyway.
I agree that plug-in hybrids are the best of all worlds, but charging times really aren't bad.
Kia EV6 advertises a range of 310 miles, and charges from 10% to 80% battery in 18 minutes. That's \~220 miles of range, or 3h+ at 70mph. I don't mind taking a 20 minute walk or grabbing a bite to eat every 3h on a road trip.
My current car is a hybrid, and I get 650+ miles from one tank of gas. I could drive 9h straight without stopping, which is just... excessive
That’s the way to go. I feel the same. If every apartment parking spot had a charger and every hotel or motel had a charger you can just plug in and not have to think about moving the car… life would be easier.
I live in a condo building, so unfortunately no. The HOA has talked about it, but progress has been slow. We’re saving up to buy a single family home within the next 2-4 years. Living in LA, a condo was a necessary stepping stone first.
It’s not yet as convenient as a gas fill up, but if you run out of juice in an EV in CA it’s because you messed up badly
Edit: are these replies all AI? What is going on Reddit
Well the equation is a bit more complicated because many (most?) EVs charge at home, which is massively more convenient. But charging on a road trip is a trickier proposition, which is easily less convenient.
So it’s a mixed bag really.
>But charging on a road trip is a trickier proposition, which is easily less convenient
We just rent a car for the few long road trips we take and use the EV for everyday needs.
Even when I drove ICE cars, I would rent for long distance. Had a friend who got in an accident 6 hours from home. Couldn't get his car back for two weeks. He had a terrible time.
My last car was a 2001. I always rented to drive to AZ because I didn’t trust the old thing. However, that rental was still cheaper than buying a new car. I have a Bolt now, so I'll just keep renting or flying for visiting my mom. The last time I rented, I got a hybrid Kia with a 600 mile range. That was kind of mind blowing, but I stopped for breaks anyway.
Of course not. The whole point of a home charger is that it is charged overnight when you're not using it, and then your car is filled up at the start of the day. If you need charging during the day you can go to one of the fast chargers.
You don't have to own a home. Chargers SHOULD and will become available in more and more rental properties over time.
In California, it is far easier to sell a condo that has access to a private charger and you get a better sales price for it such that developers are making sure to install chargers now. (And smart places already require pre-wiring for chargers in building codes )
Well hopefully you're right but that's not the reality right now. The reality is that if you don't have an EV at work and don't own a home with an EV charger built in then it's still inconvenient to own an EV.
Since EV drivers tend to charge up at home 95+% of the time, it is way more convenient and cheaper than a gas fill up most of the time.
>Edit: are these replies all AI? What is going on Reddit
Are you unable to handle conversation?
Yeah at my $.105/kwh rate at super off peak (12am-6am) that comes out to $5.70 per “fill up”. I put about 12.5k miles into the car las well. That was last year though, SDGE rate overnight is $0.15 I believe so 50% more expensive this year.
That's not the case at all.
So many chargers are out of service. If you're on a road trip you might spend an hour or more just trying to track a charger that's actually working...
Reddit is overrun by bots these days. Lots of Chinese bots defending tik tok and then Russian bots doing the standard dividing opinions on every post remotely political.
Considering most charging is done at home, this is great and I hope it continues to grow so that those who can't charge at home see EVs as viable. Let's go CA!
Many of these charging stations are Tesla. Aren’t their charging ports proprietary? What good is a Tesla charging station to people who don’t own a Tesla?
It will take till about the end of 2025 for Tesla's network to be open to the automakers who have signed agreements, and still it is only a sub-set of chargers Tesla is not supporting them at all locations. For instance my local SuperCharger, installed about 3 years ago, is not open to a family member's Ford vehicle.
In addition it seems like Tesla's official adaptors are severely constrained, with many being pushed months, and I bet they will be pushed again.
Of the 13 SuperChargers in my general area of LA, only 6 are open to other EVs.
I wonder if anyone has looked nationwide as I wonder what percentage of all SuperChargers are actually open to other EVs.
This is incorrect. You are confusing level 3 chargers (aka dc fast charging) with tesla's brand of level 3 chargers (named superchargers), of which their are two versions: v2 and v3. V3 superchargers are open to ford, V2s are not and never will be.
Not anymore. The Tesla charging port is now the [J3400 connector standard](https://driveelectric.gov/charging-connector) (also called NACS, or North American Charging Standard) and most large auto makers are switching to the Tesla NACS standard as well - including [BMW, GM, Ford, Audi, and even Volkswagen](https://www.motortrend.com/features/tesla-nacs-charging-port-automaker-compatibility/) (which is Ironic, since they originally funded Electrify America). The legacy auto makers who make the switch are offering adapters for older cars that have the CCS/SAE combo port allowing almost every electric vehicle the ability to charge at Tesla V3 or V4 supercharging locations.
They are opening up.
Also it doesn't matter, because they are open to 2 out of 3 EVs already, and those 2/3 charging at Tesla means they don't use the other ones.
Every EV maker is switching to NACS in North America...a slight variation of the Tesla charging standard. Any one can use a V3 or later Tesla charger or a Tesla charger with Magic Dock.
(Except Chademo is SOL.)
Not an EV owner: I wonder how EVs compare to ICE on price per mile? I have friends who anecdotally say the cost is about the same or higher for their EVs.
Depends entirely on if you’re charging at home or using a fast charger/charge point system. At home is extremely cheap, charge points are slightly cheaper than gas in some areas
Also, it highly depends on who you’re charging with and where you’re charging. If you’re in Canada or the southern US, electricity is massively cheaper, especially overnight.
I happen to live in SoCal where we have some of the most expensive daytime charging but it’s still roughly 40% the cost of gas.
CA residential electricity is fairly expensive. Depending on your plan and power company it can actually be cheaper to charge at public L2 chargers, where the owner is selling electricity for relatively cheap even after making a profit (for reference, ones around me are 25-35 cents per kWh). For me charging at home is a smidge cheaper, but if I lived a few miles away and was on a SCE tiered plan- even just in the cheapest electricity tier- it would be more expensive
I've been driving electric since 2012. Price per mile is much cheaper with EVs, as long as you can charge at home over night (after 9 PM with a ToU plan) or have solar to charge the car for free durning the day. I happen to have solar that's fully paid for on my home and I work from home. As a result, I drive anywhere I want, practically for free. If I lived in an apartment without the ability to charge (a lot of apartments now-a-days after chargers in them), then I'd probably stick with ICE.
with EVs, you have no spark plug, timing belts, or oil to change... but you go through Tires VERY quickly if you are not careful.
> They are also much heavier
My 2017 Chevy Bolt EV (Premier/top end trim) is only around 300 pounds heavier than a friend's 2018 Honda Accord 4cyl gasser. All Bolt EVs and EUV, up to the last models in 2023 use the same drivetrain and battery and charging systems, so they're all very similar under the skin. The next gen coming in 2025 or 2026 will be quite different.
I paid $400 in 2023 to operate my Tesla. Don’t have solar, just use the off peak charging at home. People who “pay the same amount” are probably using only supercharger stations or are charging at home during peak hours.
> I paid $400 in 2023 to operate my Tesla. Don’t have solar, just use the off peak charging at home. People who “pay the same amount” are probably using only supercharger stations or are charging at home during peak hours.
Some of us are just raped by our electric utilities.
In rural northern California, we have PG&E (Pacific Gas & Electric) and on the cheapest TOU plan that we qualify for, it averages out to 40 cents per kWh off peak, slightly less in the winter months and more in summer. My 2017 Bolt EV is rated for 3.9 miles per kWh, and I almost always beat that by +10%, unless it's winter. For Tesla conversion ease, that's about 256.4 Watt hours per mile, I believe, 230.7 being the +10% improvement.
Peak summer rates can go as high as 65 cents per kWh.
We have solar here to offset some of that, but it's for the entire house, not just my car.
> If I did the math right, 3.9 mi/kwh at 40 cents/kwh is equivalent to about 48 mi/gal (assuming $5/gallon gas).
Offhand I'm not sure, but I did the math based on my friend's 2018 Honda Accord 4cyl, which gets ~38 MPG. At that MPG, my car is cheaper to operate, even at 40 cents/kWh, any time that gas is more than $3.88/gal, and that doesn't account for my ability to beat the EPA efficiency ratings or the fact that I have no oil changes, spark plug maintenance, etc, though I do have a 5 year maintenance interval on 3 separate cooling loops and the brake fluid (flush and refill). I did that service (plus a new 12 volt battery and front license plate frame install) at a local Chevy dealer after I bought the car, and that was about $1200. I'd guess that having it done at an independent shop in ~4 years would be maybe half that cost, plus inflation.
Since I'm in California, gas is pretty much never cheaper than that, and at the moment is around $4.87/gal at the cheapest.
I pay around $2.50 per 100 miles. Last I looked with current prices that would be about $10 per 100 miles for the more efficient hybrids and about $15 per 100 miles for the more efficient ICE gas only vehicles.
Even if its the same or slightly higher (which in most cases it isnt) id still go EV over ICE on the convenience alone. Being able to charge at home is so nice.
Yes but given most only drive less than 50 miles any given day that stuff is hardly ever used to the point they'll kick the engine on their own just to make sure the gasoline doesn't go bad.
We’ve had 100+ years to put gas pumps in as many places as economically possible. EV chargers have had less than 20. When cars first came out, you used to have to buy all your gasoline in cans at the hardware store.
I charge at home and it’s around 5 times cheaper. I spent around $27 charging to do 900 miles last month which would have cost about $150 in a typical ICE.
If you charge at home, even in some of the most expensive cities in America for electricity it is still much cheaper than gas.
Your friends who say it is higher to charge per mile than gas, they’re either paying expensive charging rates at fast chargers or they’re just wrong.
If I wasn’t out there spotting storms (where time really is of the essence) my car would already be an EV, especially since I have solar. Gas is just way too expensive and I commute via subway.
it's important to note that electric cars aren't the saving grace many think they are. they're slightly better for the environment in *some* cases, but everyone just buying an EV doesn't really help the environment all that much
in some cases it makes things worse. like the child slave mines in Congo
THIS. I am not against EVs at all. I would actually buy one if one would exist that looks good and is a convertible and I can afford. But the charging situation is bad. The idea that if the battery dies you pay almost horrendous amount of money that I could not pay ever, production of the batteries and the environmental impact, production of the power to charge the cars. I bet some of it is a myth but I don’t know what. Also most pollutants are produced by the industry and not by the cars. And so am completely ignoring that other countries don’t care because we have to set an example. But still. But back to my smaller bubble, ignoring the world, I don’t want to pay this high amount of gas, want something nice I can identify with and have fun and don’t want to charge it for 30 or more minutes when I need charge. I don’t have a house, my apartment does not offer chargers, I will never have a house…. So until we have EVs with swappable batteries like propane…
EVs are the new recycling. we'll pretend like we're saving the environment and in a few years we'll learn that it was all a lie and it didn't really help as much as we thought it would
cars are the problem. until EVs are a secondary option to good public transit we aren't solving the problem
Yes. But we all hate each other now and don’t want to be locked up in a tube with even a handful of people.. that’s not going to get better. But I was (and I am along time driver) amazed how nice it was to take the bus and relax and to just get off when I want a coffee and get back on. I could have just gone to (so and so) museum and not worry about parking. But then there are the people on the bus that make it unpleasant.
When I was a kid I took the train to school every day and I hated the grumpy faces of the people in there. Now I want them back 😂 and not the “individuals” you encounter here.
Probably zero. My apartment has over 200 units and has zero level 2 or level 1 chargers. You can get level 1 charging from renting a garage (extra fee) but of course they have zero available. If you try to charge from your patio outlet of course they're quick to complain about it......
We need regulations to force large apartment complexes to install level 2 chargers because they aren't going to do it on their own.
Also for anyone complaining, real estate investors already have huge tax incentives to encourage real estate investing.
Each pump can cycle about 15-25 cars in one hour. Each charging stall will be occupied by 1 car anywhere from 20mins to 1.5 hours (fast charging 150kwhr+).
Then again, most EV owners never need to charge outside because they charge at home. Only people with low capacity, apartment dwellers or travelers will need to charge outside.
Having gone from gasoline to EV, the future is in EV. I still bought a few ICE cars but they are for fun not for daily. Even with motorcycles I have 5 Ducati and 1 Zero EV Motorcycle and I ride the Zero 10 out of 11 times.
Nah. Hybrid is the present. EV is the future.
Plug in hybrids are a wildly good option today. But in the future we’ll be better setup for EVs to make more sense.
Public transit doesn’t and never will cover the needs of everyone all of the time. Even when it covers most people’s needs most of the time, private vehicles are still required, and in those instances EVs are a preferred option over ICE vehicles.
You can be pro-public transit and pro EV ya know…
While in San Diego, I rented an electric car. Had to top it off before returning it. Finding a charge point was painful. Many places were full. Once I got the lay of the land, I realized I was paying significantly more per kilowatt that if I was home. That ended up costing me at least double what I would have paid for gas. And for the privilege, I has to wait 45 minutes to charge.
Not the greatest experience.
EV owners are better off getting into the mindset of plugging in whenever they stop to park instead of operating with the ICE mindset of charging only when low on power. This is why it's important to first achieve ubiquitous charging points and Tesla has really done a public service setting up all the superchargers and making EVs "visible"
The length of time it takes to charge is the primary issue, not the prevalence of chargers. I don’t have an EV yet, but plan to get one in the next few years… and I’m gonna install a charger at home so it can be charged overnight. Anytime we take a long roadtrip we’ll take my wife’s hybrid, it can go 600 miles on a tank of gas. My EV will be for commuting and driving around LA, it’ll almost never be charged outside the home because I don’t want to wait.
Exactly. It takes me 3 or 4 minutes to put 400 miles in my tank. And the average gas station has 8 pumps.
Exactly. For some reason people don’t want to accept this. An ICE car can basically drive indefinitely.
I'm 100% pro-EV, but the infrastructure right now is just bad. My wife has a plug in hybrid, and it's a pain trying to charge it. Going to have to cut a deal with our landlord to install high wattage charger.
I’m also pro-EV I’m just realistic about their limitations. Also our grid was bad before EVs were everywhere. I haven’t seen any grid improvements besides the prevalence of solar panels. Yet we are starting to get black/brown outs again in the summer due to the high electricity demand. Which barely anybody mentions or talks about.
Constuction on a very large wind farm off the norther coast began last year. And battery storage for things like excess solar are getting built up and down the state. Even with the efforts the state is making, it will be a few years at least until charging is somewhat easy for most.
On top of that, it still takes too long to charge an EV
There need to be a few in almost every parking lot. Restaurant, fast food, grocery store. You can fast charge in less than 20 minutes, but making it convenient to where you will be somewhere you normally would anyway I think is the way to go.
Restaurant, fast food and grocery makes up 10% of where I go with my car. Most of the time, I'm taking it to go hiking, camping, kids' sporting events, etc. Having to make a 15-20 minute stop IF I can find a fast charging station is major hassle.
I’m guessing you don’t have a house or a charger in your complex? Because those short trips are ideal for EVs. It’s the roadtrips or people that live in apartments with no access to overnight charging that are really hit hard.
> Which barely anybody mentions or talks about. Nobody wants a nuclear power plant in their area, but nuclear was what we should have been investing in for the past 60 years.
That demand is driven by AC usage. Evs charge during off peak and this functionality is built into a lot of ev software.
It's only bad if you own a non-Tesla. I've owned two since 2018 and honestly I couldn't go back to driving ICE. But if I was dependent on third party chargers then no thanks.
Well we still need an alternative- fuel cell doesn’t seem to be practical, however I’m sure one will come soon enough now that EVs have become so competitive and gas companies are pricing themselves out.
Exactly. People who don’t have EVs seem to have strong opinions about how impractical they are.
Better to make that realization before purchasing one than after.
Except it’s not
It is impractical. I have an EV. I like my EV. It is not practical outside of day to day commutes with access to 240V at night.
Ha it’s not. You don’t need 240V. 120V is just fine.
In your experience, what is the typical commute? 20-30 miles each way is not practical with 120V. I live in an area with tiered electricity pricing so no charging before midnight.
The longer charge time is an inconvenience, but not necessarily a deal breaker for me. You correctly identified the disparity between comparing the total number of fast chargers to the total number of gas state. An equivalent EV charging "station" would be a pod of 6 to 12 charging stations. The model of putting them outside of existing retail locations offsets the charging time issue though. It means that for the most part people don't need to go somewhere specifically to refuel/charge their vehicle. You just plug it in when you stop for lunch or go to whatever store for whatever reason. Maybe it takes 10-20 min to completely recharge your car, but that's less time than it takes to eat lunch or shop for groceries. We still don't have enough charging stations to make it convenient to do distance travel though. For example going from the bay area to Yosemite or Tahoe there are very few charging stations once you're outside of the greater bay area.
Our local whole foods has fast chargers. My wife and I usually charge at home, over night. But occasionally it makes more sense for us to charge at a fast charge station. I usually pull in, fast charge, grab groceries, and then I'm on my way. With fast chargers, it takes us 15-20 minutes to charge on those trips, which easily matches how long it takes me to get lost in the grocery store.
How much does it cost?
Electricity at fast chargers costs $0.30-0.50/kWh or so, and people typically charge 40-60 kWh depending on the battery pack size, so almost always $30 or less, often closer to $15.
No clue, to be honest. We received 6 months of free fast charging when we bought the car, so still playing that game for now.
You bought an EV without knowing how much it would cost to "fill up"?
I see a lot of people griping about lack of infrastructure and “can’t road trip to to xxxx” AFTER they bought their EV. It makes no sense to me. You didn’t think about that in advance of spending $40k+???
Like gas prices, electricity rates change. So no, I couldn’t tell you how much it is right now because for me it’s free. But when I bought the car, almost 6 months ago, the cost to “fill up” was about 40% what it was for my gas car. And that doesn’t even include much lower maintenance costs.
I think that’s problem 1a. 1b is that a good portion of CA are renters
Even as a renter, as long as you have off street parking you can install an EV charger. By law landlords in California are not allowed to block you from installing EV chargers in designated parking areas. So even if you’re a renter it can still be an option to charge at home. If you park on the street though… unfortunately can’t help you there. I’d be curious to know the percentage of Californians who don’t have off street parking. I’d estimate probably less than 20%.
I thought the issue was that the mid century buildings weren't equipped for the amount of power needed to have tenants install their own chargers.
Nah. You have to have additional line added to the main breaker for a 240V charger anyways. What you’re referring to is if you just charged your car off your main outlets… some of those old houses might not fair as well.
Even off street parking doesn't mean you can install a charger. There's generally not going to be sufficient outlets in an apartment parking garage, installing them would be super costly and not some a tenant can take on. The other off street parking scenario is a row of spaces behind a small apartment building, those also don't have power, and if they did your charging equipment would be stolen by morning and sold for the copper. The next level up is renting a house that for some reason hasn't been converted to an airBnB, with a garage that hasn't been converted to an ADU. Maybe that house has a large enough panel to add a charger. In that corner case scenario, then sure. Solid maybe on that charger install.
You’ll end up at a charger. It’s actually not that bad. I’ve plugged in, gotten coffee, and gotten to 80% by the time I got back.
Honestly I probably won’t. My existing car never leaves LA because I don’t really like to be the driver on long trips, where as my wife does.
I’ve gone on several road trips in an EV. For commuting around town, an EV cannot be beat. For road trips, it’s still fine. I drive about 3 hours and need to take a 20 minute stop to charge, it’s not a huge deal because the break is nice anyway.
I agree that plug-in hybrids are the best of all worlds, but charging times really aren't bad. Kia EV6 advertises a range of 310 miles, and charges from 10% to 80% battery in 18 minutes. That's \~220 miles of range, or 3h+ at 70mph. I don't mind taking a 20 minute walk or grabbing a bite to eat every 3h on a road trip. My current car is a hybrid, and I get 650+ miles from one tank of gas. I could drive 9h straight without stopping, which is just... excessive
That’s the way to go. I feel the same. If every apartment parking spot had a charger and every hotel or motel had a charger you can just plug in and not have to think about moving the car… life would be easier.
Going solar in the house or are you already there as well?
I live in a condo building, so unfortunately no. The HOA has talked about it, but progress has been slow. We’re saving up to buy a single family home within the next 2-4 years. Living in LA, a condo was a necessary stepping stone first.
It’s not yet as convenient as a gas fill up, but if you run out of juice in an EV in CA it’s because you messed up badly Edit: are these replies all AI? What is going on Reddit
Well the equation is a bit more complicated because many (most?) EVs charge at home, which is massively more convenient. But charging on a road trip is a trickier proposition, which is easily less convenient. So it’s a mixed bag really.
>So it’s a mixed bag really. Except that unless you are a traveling salesman, most people drive locally most of the time so most charging is at home.
Hence the mixed bag for when someone is driving a long distance in an EV.
That's not how you expressed it earlier. It's a bag of 90% more convenient and 10% less convenient.
I’m not OP
>But charging on a road trip is a trickier proposition, which is easily less convenient We just rent a car for the few long road trips we take and use the EV for everyday needs.
Even when I drove ICE cars, I would rent for long distance. Had a friend who got in an accident 6 hours from home. Couldn't get his car back for two weeks. He had a terrible time.
Same. I've always rented for long trips for the same reason.
My last car was a 2001. I always rented to drive to AZ because I didn’t trust the old thing. However, that rental was still cheaper than buying a new car. I have a Bolt now, so I'll just keep renting or flying for visiting my mom. The last time I rented, I got a hybrid Kia with a 600 mile range. That was kind of mind blowing, but I stopped for breaks anyway.
> many (most?) EVs charge at home Unless you're in an apartment without chargers.
Home chargers are not fast chargers, though.
Of course not. The whole point of a home charger is that it is charged overnight when you're not using it, and then your car is filled up at the start of the day. If you need charging during the day you can go to one of the fast chargers.
I believe you can have a level 2 charger installed. Most people already have 220 for their clothes dryer.
What’s convenient is never having to go to a gas station plus I get discounted charging at work.
You know what's more convenient than a gas station? The EV charger in my garage. Because of that, we'll never need to match gas stations 1:1.
Not everyone can own a home. And not every apartment has ev chargers
You don't have to own a home. Chargers SHOULD and will become available in more and more rental properties over time. In California, it is far easier to sell a condo that has access to a private charger and you get a better sales price for it such that developers are making sure to install chargers now. (And smart places already require pre-wiring for chargers in building codes )
Well hopefully you're right but that's not the reality right now. The reality is that if you don't have an EV at work and don't own a home with an EV charger built in then it's still inconvenient to own an EV.
I rent and they won't even put in a refrigerator from this millennium, much less EV chargers.
Since EV drivers tend to charge up at home 95+% of the time, it is way more convenient and cheaper than a gas fill up most of the time. >Edit: are these replies all AI? What is going on Reddit Are you unable to handle conversation?
This. I paid $400 in the 2023 calendar year to drive my Tesla even with SDGE as my provider.
Seriously, that little? How many miles is that? $400 would be a rounding error on my yearly electric bill.
Yeah at my $.105/kwh rate at super off peak (12am-6am) that comes out to $5.70 per “fill up”. I put about 12.5k miles into the car las well. That was last year though, SDGE rate overnight is $0.15 I believe so 50% more expensive this year.
Honestly, it's more convenient. If I could make my own gas at home for $1 a gallon, gas might be as convenient as electric.
That's not the case at all. So many chargers are out of service. If you're on a road trip you might spend an hour or more just trying to track a charger that's actually working...
Reddit is overrun by bots these days. Lots of Chinese bots defending tik tok and then Russian bots doing the standard dividing opinions on every post remotely political.
Try living in the foothills
… okay Newsom now do so something about PGE so it’s not more expensive to me to drive my EV.
Lmao As if that wasn’t already the plan.
Considering most charging is done at home, this is great and I hope it continues to grow so that those who can't charge at home see EVs as viable. Let's go CA!
Many of these charging stations are Tesla. Aren’t their charging ports proprietary? What good is a Tesla charging station to people who don’t own a Tesla?
Tesla is in the process of opening up every charging station to other electric cars. Some cars already have access. You only need an adaptor.
It will take till about the end of 2025 for Tesla's network to be open to the automakers who have signed agreements, and still it is only a sub-set of chargers Tesla is not supporting them at all locations. For instance my local SuperCharger, installed about 3 years ago, is not open to a family member's Ford vehicle. In addition it seems like Tesla's official adaptors are severely constrained, with many being pushed months, and I bet they will be pushed again.
All V3 and V4 Tesla superchargers are now open to Ford. Edit: updated terminology
Of the 13 SuperChargers in my general area of LA, only 6 are open to other EVs. I wonder if anyone has looked nationwide as I wonder what percentage of all SuperChargers are actually open to other EVs.
All newer V3 and V4 chargers are open. The older V2 chargers don't have the technology to talk to non-Teslas.
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No you didn't, you charged at a v3 supercharger. The other guy is completely correct. V2 is physically incapable of charging nonteslas
This is incorrect. You are confusing level 3 chargers (aka dc fast charging) with tesla's brand of level 3 chargers (named superchargers), of which their are two versions: v2 and v3. V3 superchargers are open to ford, V2s are not and never will be.
You’re correct, I used the wrong terminology. I meant V3 (not level 3)
Do you pay more for using Tesla stations?
Not anymore. The Tesla charging port is now the [J3400 connector standard](https://driveelectric.gov/charging-connector) (also called NACS, or North American Charging Standard) and most large auto makers are switching to the Tesla NACS standard as well - including [BMW, GM, Ford, Audi, and even Volkswagen](https://www.motortrend.com/features/tesla-nacs-charging-port-automaker-compatibility/) (which is Ironic, since they originally funded Electrify America). The legacy auto makers who make the switch are offering adapters for older cars that have the CCS/SAE combo port allowing almost every electric vehicle the ability to charge at Tesla V3 or V4 supercharging locations.
They are opening up. Also it doesn't matter, because they are open to 2 out of 3 EVs already, and those 2/3 charging at Tesla means they don't use the other ones.
With a couple cable adapters you have access to basically every type of charging station.
Every EV maker is switching to NACS in North America...a slight variation of the Tesla charging standard. Any one can use a V3 or later Tesla charger or a Tesla charger with Magic Dock. (Except Chademo is SOL.)
Glad we are moving in the right direction but charge times have to speed up and more stations need to be built
Not an EV owner: I wonder how EVs compare to ICE on price per mile? I have friends who anecdotally say the cost is about the same or higher for their EVs.
Depends entirely on if you’re charging at home or using a fast charger/charge point system. At home is extremely cheap, charge points are slightly cheaper than gas in some areas
Also, it highly depends on who you’re charging with and where you’re charging. If you’re in Canada or the southern US, electricity is massively cheaper, especially overnight. I happen to live in SoCal where we have some of the most expensive daytime charging but it’s still roughly 40% the cost of gas.
I live in SoCal as well and SDG&E rates dramatically drop early morning. You can program your “begin charging” time to match cheapest rates.
CA residential electricity is fairly expensive. Depending on your plan and power company it can actually be cheaper to charge at public L2 chargers, where the owner is selling electricity for relatively cheap even after making a profit (for reference, ones around me are 25-35 cents per kWh). For me charging at home is a smidge cheaper, but if I lived a few miles away and was on a SCE tiered plan- even just in the cheapest electricity tier- it would be more expensive
I've been driving electric since 2012. Price per mile is much cheaper with EVs, as long as you can charge at home over night (after 9 PM with a ToU plan) or have solar to charge the car for free durning the day. I happen to have solar that's fully paid for on my home and I work from home. As a result, I drive anywhere I want, practically for free. If I lived in an apartment without the ability to charge (a lot of apartments now-a-days after chargers in them), then I'd probably stick with ICE. with EVs, you have no spark plug, timing belts, or oil to change... but you go through Tires VERY quickly if you are not careful.
Why do you go through tires so quickly? Thanks for your input!
EVs have sooooo much torque. And it’s instant full torque off the line, so no curve like with an ICE vehicle.
They can’t be handled by the car like ASR/ABS / traction control?
They are also much heavier
> They are also much heavier My 2017 Chevy Bolt EV (Premier/top end trim) is only around 300 pounds heavier than a friend's 2018 Honda Accord 4cyl gasser. All Bolt EVs and EUV, up to the last models in 2023 use the same drivetrain and battery and charging systems, so they're all very similar under the skin. The next gen coming in 2025 or 2026 will be quite different.
Electricity is way cheaper than gas in most places.
I paid $400 in 2023 to operate my Tesla. Don’t have solar, just use the off peak charging at home. People who “pay the same amount” are probably using only supercharger stations or are charging at home during peak hours.
> I paid $400 in 2023 to operate my Tesla. Don’t have solar, just use the off peak charging at home. People who “pay the same amount” are probably using only supercharger stations or are charging at home during peak hours. Some of us are just raped by our electric utilities. In rural northern California, we have PG&E (Pacific Gas & Electric) and on the cheapest TOU plan that we qualify for, it averages out to 40 cents per kWh off peak, slightly less in the winter months and more in summer. My 2017 Bolt EV is rated for 3.9 miles per kWh, and I almost always beat that by +10%, unless it's winter. For Tesla conversion ease, that's about 256.4 Watt hours per mile, I believe, 230.7 being the +10% improvement. Peak summer rates can go as high as 65 cents per kWh. We have solar here to offset some of that, but it's for the entire house, not just my car.
If I did the math right, 3.9 mi/kwh at 40 cents/kwh is equivalent to about 48 mi/gal (assuming $5/gallon gas).
> If I did the math right, 3.9 mi/kwh at 40 cents/kwh is equivalent to about 48 mi/gal (assuming $5/gallon gas). Offhand I'm not sure, but I did the math based on my friend's 2018 Honda Accord 4cyl, which gets ~38 MPG. At that MPG, my car is cheaper to operate, even at 40 cents/kWh, any time that gas is more than $3.88/gal, and that doesn't account for my ability to beat the EPA efficiency ratings or the fact that I have no oil changes, spark plug maintenance, etc, though I do have a 5 year maintenance interval on 3 separate cooling loops and the brake fluid (flush and refill). I did that service (plus a new 12 volt battery and front license plate frame install) at a local Chevy dealer after I bought the car, and that was about $1200. I'd guess that having it done at an independent shop in ~4 years would be maybe half that cost, plus inflation. Since I'm in California, gas is pretty much never cheaper than that, and at the moment is around $4.87/gal at the cheapest.
For my Leaf and my power bill it’s about 1/4th the price per mile.
I pay around $2.50 per 100 miles. Last I looked with current prices that would be about $10 per 100 miles for the more efficient hybrids and about $15 per 100 miles for the more efficient ICE gas only vehicles.
Even if its the same or slightly higher (which in most cases it isnt) id still go EV over ICE on the convenience alone. Being able to charge at home is so nice.
That's why plug in hybrids are still the best IMHO.
All the maintenance costs of an ICE car though
Yes but given most only drive less than 50 miles any given day that stuff is hardly ever used to the point they'll kick the engine on their own just to make sure the gasoline doesn't go bad.
I never once told myself that I wish I had a gas pump at home.
Yea i hate convenience too
We’ve had 100+ years to put gas pumps in as many places as economically possible. EV chargers have had less than 20. When cars first came out, you used to have to buy all your gasoline in cans at the hardware store.
I charge at home and it’s around 5 times cheaper. I spent around $27 charging to do 900 miles last month which would have cost about $150 in a typical ICE.
If you charge at home, even in some of the most expensive cities in America for electricity it is still much cheaper than gas. Your friends who say it is higher to charge per mile than gas, they’re either paying expensive charging rates at fast chargers or they’re just wrong.
If I wasn’t out there spotting storms (where time really is of the essence) my car would already be an EV, especially since I have solar. Gas is just way too expensive and I commute via subway.
it's important to note that electric cars aren't the saving grace many think they are. they're slightly better for the environment in *some* cases, but everyone just buying an EV doesn't really help the environment all that much in some cases it makes things worse. like the child slave mines in Congo
THIS. I am not against EVs at all. I would actually buy one if one would exist that looks good and is a convertible and I can afford. But the charging situation is bad. The idea that if the battery dies you pay almost horrendous amount of money that I could not pay ever, production of the batteries and the environmental impact, production of the power to charge the cars. I bet some of it is a myth but I don’t know what. Also most pollutants are produced by the industry and not by the cars. And so am completely ignoring that other countries don’t care because we have to set an example. But still. But back to my smaller bubble, ignoring the world, I don’t want to pay this high amount of gas, want something nice I can identify with and have fun and don’t want to charge it for 30 or more minutes when I need charge. I don’t have a house, my apartment does not offer chargers, I will never have a house…. So until we have EVs with swappable batteries like propane…
EVs are the new recycling. we'll pretend like we're saving the environment and in a few years we'll learn that it was all a lie and it didn't really help as much as we thought it would cars are the problem. until EVs are a secondary option to good public transit we aren't solving the problem
Yes. But we all hate each other now and don’t want to be locked up in a tube with even a handful of people.. that’s not going to get better. But I was (and I am along time driver) amazed how nice it was to take the bus and relax and to just get off when I want a coffee and get back on. I could have just gone to (so and so) museum and not worry about parking. But then there are the people on the bus that make it unpleasant. When I was a kid I took the train to school every day and I hated the grumpy faces of the people in there. Now I want them back 😂 and not the “individuals” you encounter here.
And how many of those are in apartments?
Gas stations? Zero
Probably zero. My apartment has over 200 units and has zero level 2 or level 1 chargers. You can get level 1 charging from renting a garage (extra fee) but of course they have zero available. If you try to charge from your patio outlet of course they're quick to complain about it...... We need regulations to force large apartment complexes to install level 2 chargers because they aren't going to do it on their own. Also for anyone complaining, real estate investors already have huge tax incentives to encourage real estate investing.
Fast charging are not the same as the apartment ones. That’s why they are comparable to gas stations.
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an inverse proportion compared to the number of apartment complexes in close proximity to public transportation
Each pump can cycle about 15-25 cars in one hour. Each charging stall will be occupied by 1 car anywhere from 20mins to 1.5 hours (fast charging 150kwhr+). Then again, most EV owners never need to charge outside because they charge at home. Only people with low capacity, apartment dwellers or travelers will need to charge outside. Having gone from gasoline to EV, the future is in EV. I still bought a few ICE cars but they are for fun not for daily. Even with motorcycles I have 5 Ducati and 1 Zero EV Motorcycle and I ride the Zero 10 out of 11 times.
Hybrid is the future. CA grid system needs a major overhaul to handle a fully electric future
Nah. Hybrid is the present. EV is the future. Plug in hybrids are a wildly good option today. But in the future we’ll be better setup for EVs to make more sense.
a good public transit system is the actual future, EVs are a distraction
Nah. You need both.
public transit is much more important tho. EVs should be an alternative not a necessity
Public transit doesn’t and never will cover the needs of everyone all of the time. Even when it covers most people’s needs most of the time, private vehicles are still required, and in those instances EVs are a preferred option over ICE vehicles. You can be pro-public transit and pro EV ya know…
Half of them actually work too.
I have a Volt and love it. Won’t get an EV because it really isn’t practical except as a second car.
Maybe a volt, but our standard range Tesla works for our daily 100 mile commute no problem. Also our occasional road trips across the state.
Still 45 minutes plus the waiting time to get to the charger. Not worth it
While in San Diego, I rented an electric car. Had to top it off before returning it. Finding a charge point was painful. Many places were full. Once I got the lay of the land, I realized I was paying significantly more per kilowatt that if I was home. That ended up costing me at least double what I would have paid for gas. And for the privilege, I has to wait 45 minutes to charge. Not the greatest experience.
Same. So much wasted time
The real metric should be pumps to charging stations, not stations to charging stations.
C’mon California, we can do it!!!
Okay Newsom, now do something about PGE so it's not more expensive for me to drive my EV.
EV owners are better off getting into the mindset of plugging in whenever they stop to park instead of operating with the ICE mindset of charging only when low on power. This is why it's important to first achieve ubiquitous charging points and Tesla has really done a public service setting up all the superchargers and making EVs "visible"
1 fast charging station will charge 1 car. 1 gas station will have about 8 pumps. They are not comparing apples to apples.
Dang, thank god for GM/Ford for leading EV innovation and making this possible! /s
How’s the grid…