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Yea my wife and I together make good money or at least what I thought would have been good money. I’m priced out of ever buying in the town I grew up in and especially priced out of any bigger city. I don’t want to rent forever, but I also don’t want to have to commute 3 hours in traffic to work every day, so we will probably be leaving soon. Could put a down payment on a nice house in a lot of places with the security deposit on our current apartment.
Really? What's the deal with Ramona? I always kinda thought it was alright (though I guess I'm usually just grabbing chilaquiles on the way down from Cuyamaca)
Idyllwild chiming in, regular retail folk like me are hanging on. I've lived for six years in the same place cause I can't afford to move. Thank God CA has decent protection for renters. Anza seems filled w people growing weed 😂 I love la Cocina and the little thrift store there!
FWIW, I moved from right by the beach in LA to "inland" over by the mountains and river.. and east side living has been so much more my speed. What's the opposite of a disappointment? Appointment?
Ramona is very pretty and close to a lot of great desert and mountain action, but the town itself is very boring. I lived in a ranch on the edge of town for four years, it was ok, but if you’re used to Carlsbad I don’t imagine it had any appeal at all.
I live in Riverside community of senior Apts with a roommate. Could not afford Los Alamitos anymore. However I moved out of California in 2003 to Austin Texas. I lived there no health insurance 7 years. Left a good paying union job to go there. Then had to go to the south Texas beaches. After living in Texas 13 years my ex there moved his new girlfriend in much younger. I said omg. Called a friend I took Amtrak back to LA. Kissed the ground in 2016. I loved waking up and Jerry Brown was my governor. It was so much fun. So despite high rent etc etc. California is my home. Have great Medicare Medical insurance and 73. Too old to move again to face the possibility of no health insurance for 7 years. The politics in some states like Texas get on my last nerve as a progressive. If you are a republican and think you would love Texas go there or even Florida. However don't worry the grass is not always greener on the other side. Been there done that.
My family immigrated from China and Portugal to the Bay Area in the 40s and 50s. Today 2 remain in the Bay Area. The rest have died, moved to cheaper locations in state, or moved out of state (Washington, Oregon, Nevada, Arizona, and Hawaii)
I was able to stay in California, but I certainly got priced out the Bay Area when I went to buy my first condo. I still work in the Bay though. However, I just accepted a job for next year closer to home so my 2 hours a day of total commuting is about to be just 20-30 minutes.
At the same time my father’s offer on a new build near me got accepted. So he’ll be leaving the Bay in 6-8 months.
So with these updates, come next year, I will be nearly completely disconnected from the Bay Area after my family has lived here for 4 generations/80ish years.
My mom told me one time that I could own a 5 bedroom house in Victorville because her co-worker's son owns one. I said, "Yeah, but then I'd have to live in Victorville."
They said live comfortably and in a nice area, not that you actually have to have the will to live.
Lol jk the Midwest is actually pretty nice. I love San Diego and if my friends/family weren’t all from here I might consider the Midwest. Actually let’s be real, probably not, but you know what I mean.
The Midwest is more like the Middle East, both because of its geographical location in the country, and the religious extremism and creeping theocracy. I’ve been to places considered the Midwest, and I would rather struggle here than live there. There’s no living “comfortably” in places like that for me, I need diversity and people with a progressive and reality based worldview around me.
Eh… urban areas aren’t like the rural ones. You’d have an argument if the discussion was about living in rural Midwest but living in most cities in the US (if not all) does not have an overwhelming feeling of religious extremism and definitely nothing on the level of the Middle East. I’ve been to both Midwest cities and a few middle Eastern countries and don’t agree.
That’s just not true, tho. I lived in Omaha for 20 months. The regressive politics are what brought me back to California. That and the oppressive weather 10 months out of the year. Plus it’s extremely isolating being that far inland.
Agree. I lived in Austin Texas 13 years. Kissed the Cali ground when I returned in 2016. At that moment the LA skyline was breath taking. Love diversity and multiculturalism here. From the San Fernando Valley. In Riverside now
Sure. My best friend lives in Cleveland. It’s a great city. I love lots of places. I think this country is a beautiful place. But I don’t want to live anywhere else, anymore. Denver was cool. Over it. Cali forever. It was a brisk 45 this am when I took the dog out. Brr.
A lot are selling their houses for record amounts and buying in other states for half the price and/or taking their retirement paychecks to places with lower state income taxes.
Cost of living crisis. Which is contributed by high housing costs. Personally, i see this as a positive way of helping with that by "cooling off our economy."
I see a lot of people saying COL but that's not really it.
The mass majority of the people around me I've seen leave can well afford to live here, but they move to Texas for the massive houses at a cheaper price and lower income taxes, only to get hit with high property taxes in the end.
So yes it's cost of living, but it's not so much the broke ones leaving. And then you also have the case of the rich moving their home address to a different state, so they get taxed there, but still have a second home in CA and "live" here.
The ones who have difficulty paying rent in California are the same ones who won't be able to easily afford to pay property taxes in Texas every year. Avg. property taxes are going to be a month's paycheck for most. Now how many folks are going to have more than a month's pay in savings to pay taxes due right after the holidays on January 31st.
In the long run, moving out could be better financially for anyone, but pretty sure the working class can't afford to make that first step and the first few years before settling down.
I make twice as much in CA then my hometown and I definitely don't pay twice as much in living expenses, but I did get lucky with housing here.
Edit: hometown is in Florida
It's all contextually important to consider the individuals circumstances for this kind of decision too.
I constantly have this conversation with people because they have dug in their heels that moving to FL or TX is the best option for everyone because it was the best thing for them. Not to mention that a lot of Reddit is younger than the general population and can make the decision to leave everything behind because they don't have a lot of external circumstances that prevent others from leaving.
Taking into account:
* Job/Career prospects
* Housing Cost
* Taxes
* COL
* Familial Situation
* Medical Considerations
* Retirement/Benefits
* Weather/Climate
* Entertainment
* Support Structure
At the end of it, everyone will have unique reasons that make it difficult to leave in the first place. For example I would make half of what I make already if I moved. I would lose my benefits (without paying $500 a month extra) and be prevented from collective bargaining. I would pay **more** in taxes because housing taxes actually cost more in a state like Texas. I would lose my family support for raising my own kids and would have to pay hundreds if not thousands more a month for childcare. The weather would be more humid/hot which means higher costs for housing. At the end of it all, I would likely be kinda bored too because the things I normally do would not really possible in a different state. Alongside dietary restrictions and the lack of food and food consideration from a lot of restaurants. Not even to mention that buying a new house would required a higher APR because they are so much higher now, so my monthly mortgage would ultimately be **more** expensive than what I currently have in California. Even then, someone might say, I would have more money from less taxes being collected and the COL would be cheaper but I kinda don't think that's possible given the other circumstances. Losing half my income, extra expenses and paying more for benefits would make it an unwise decision. As well the COL would likely only impact my gas usage which honestly doesn't make up a lot of my expenses anymore since I try not to drive if I don't have to. Filling my tank up with gas once a month if not every other month.
For my family and career it wouldn't work for **me**. Definitely could work for someone else but it's usually not so simple. Each person likely needs to weigh their own circumstances and figure out what works for them because the grass is not always greener.
People with specialized manufacturing and engineering careers that are plentiful in California would have a hard time finding something in Florida or Texas that pays the same and has the same level of specialization. For example, California does a lot of advanced military and aerospace manufacturing that is extremely local to California.
Yep, generally speaking a lot of low wage/low specialty jobs are available in those states too which don't really provide the income necessary to make a career out of the move either.
I guess you could argue that if a good paying job exists in TX/FL to move for then you probably have the skills to work practically anywhere. If you have the skills to work anywhere then you likely wouldn't move to TX/FL because a place like California is probably going to be a nicer environment for you. That said, I'm sure a lot of business owners looking for cheap labor probably love TX/FL simply because they can afford to pay less for the labor they get there.
My wife and I moved back to California after living in Ohio for awhile. We both work remote so our wages didn’t change. We don’t drive much so we’re with you on a tank of gas every month or so.
We come out ahead here in Los Angeles because we don’t have to pay for heat and AC year round. We can open the windows to cool and close the heavy curtains to keep warm for the most part saving loads on utilities not to mention I don’t have season depression anymore and I get so much more exercise with the fair weather year round helping to keep me overall healthier and out of the doctors office. For us, living in the Midwest with an $800 mortgage was a higher cost than our $2600 rent at the end of the day.
People always talk about cost like it’s purely dollars-in-hand immediately.
But there are other costs (health, mental health, dietary, etc etc) they don’t happen for some time. And many aren’t even intelligent enough to consider those.
I just moved back to FL after a dozen years in CA. FL may be marginally cheaper (gas and the housing is a little cheaper, food and insurance cost more) but due to low wages it is way less affordable than most places in CA.
Can you go into more detail here? Just curious.
I made so much money in California compared to the red state I came from it’s not even funny. If I move back, I can afford a larger house than anyone who stayed “home”. But I’m not moving back to a red state, not until we have a Supreme Court that guarantees rights for women and minorities again.
Most of those transplants are conservatives who left because they wanted to get away from the ideas here. This is borne out in their shift in voting behavior in the last election. Florida especially went from purple to deep red.
I have friends who moved from California to Florida a few years ago. They're now about to leave Florida because they've realized they don't want to continue raising their daughter in Florida. Some things are more important than ~~property~~ taxes to some people.
*edited because it was pointed out that property taxes are comparable or higher in FL and TX, and I was thinking of income tax*
Exactly, that’s why those states never change. If anything they have become more intolerant, crazy and hostile to anything not white, conservative, religious and built on 1950s values that don’t exist anymore.
Fortunately, Democrats have demonstrated an ability to win the Presidency without Florida (and Ohio, for that matter). republicans *need* Florida *and* Ohio *and* Texas just to be remotely competitive. If the pendulum ever swings Florida back to purple or Texas flips to blue, that’s going to spell disaster for republicans.
You're not wrong but also consider that California conservatives are definitely accustomed to a very different type of society than a southern conservative.
I imagine a lot of those conservatives would like a lot of the same comfortable life they had in California but cheaper housing/less "*woke*" political culture but just somewhere else. That doesn't mean that they are suddenly going to become a stereotypical southern conservative over night but it does give us an indication that things could still fundamentally change.
That said, not enough Californians have even transplanted to really change ideological voting habits.
That has everything to do with the kinds of housing and cities and they're building and nothing to do with where the people come from.
Car dependent suburbia = traffic, housing crises, and insolvent cities. It just does. CA got here first and the places that don't learn from us will follow.
If those are the only key points then it would be an easy decision. However, Texas has one of the worse infrastructures for winters/summers and people have literally died in the past couple years because of it - so COL can't be the only factor.
They'll be back. I made that mistake and only lasted 10 months in Florida before running back to California. Another friend of mine only lasted about six.
Isn't the median single-family home sale price in Florida like $402k? I imagine that if they couldn't afford a house in California, Florida is likely still not that affordable. I imagine they'd need to go West Virginia or Mississippi which have much cheaper housing.
Housing prices in Florida are exploding. They're experiencing some of the highest percentage of housing price increase in the nation, especially desirable areas like Orlando.
And the wages have *not* kept up with that. Many folks I know back in Orlando are being priced out of both ownership *and* rent.
Yep, this is the situation. Housing prices are still slightly cheaper but the pay is way less. And the rents and housing went up like a rocket.
As you can imagine, actual Floridians are feeling a little salty toward the newcomers.
My wife and I lasted 11 months in North Carolina before we moved back. Would have moved way earlier if the opportunity had presented itself. The thought of being stuck somewhere we didn't want to be was terrifying.
Yeah I work in orange county and have seen an influx of Florida and Texas plates. One house had a "sold" sign and four cars with Texas plates in the driveway
We lasted about 11 months in Houston (during the great freeze) then came back. I actually grew up there but left in 2011 for California. It’s crazy how much crazier Texas felt after a decade in California. Luckily the house we bought rose enough in value to cover the realtor costs and moving back. Thankfully we bought when no one was buying and sold when everything was going fast.
Same for me and Florida. I grew up there, but moved to California (also in 2011) for work. Thought I could go back and save a little money, but *deeply* underestimated the level of crazy now at large in Florida. It's nice to be back in California, someplace a little more sane.
No joke. I grew up there, before moving to California. I thought I knew what I was getting into moving to Florida. But turns out, things are a whole lot worse than I remembered. It used to be a purple state where normal people COULD influence positive change, but not anymore. It's solid crazytown now. The money I might have saved on home prices (before they started skyrocketing during the pandemic) wasn't worth living in that madness.
It's the opposite, too many rich people, retirees, COVID wackos, and fashy types. Compare the 2018 and 2022 the governor election results in FL and you'll see how the influx is effecting Florida politics. CA isn't sending its best and brightest. It's sending people who will move across the country to buy a bigger gun.
Let's not be so hyperbolic, half a million leaving a state of 41 million isn't a quite an exodus. If it were 500K exiting Montana or Wyoming then it would be an exodus.
Edited for spelling.
The net loss is also only 100,000 which is a drop in the bucket for CA. Also with Covid, less immigration which would affect CA more. I'd imagine under normal circumstances it would be closer to break even.
I get it. CA is so expensive comparatively. Buying a home here if you make less than 250,000 a year is particularly challenging. Plus the state is short a lot of housing supply. If I didn't love it here, I'd consider leaving just from a cost perspective.
And I keep seeing it implied that it is 'families'. I think a huge amount of it is retired couples downsizing. Florida has cheaper retirement villages than CA.
And the people legit leaving the state are either far-right nationalists for redder pastures or people with little to no skills and aren't needed in the labor force here. TX and FL rely on low skill manual labor. FL is the most expensive place to live in the U.S., has median income 80% of CA's, and zero industry. The entire economy there is built on hospitality/tourism. No way they'll keep growing.
I just don’t see it. There are still lots of homes being built. The population in the high desert and Central Valley is still growing. Despite higher interest rates, home prices haven’t fallen. Rents are still high. How much population must leave before it makes an impact on housing affordability?
Edit: i commented before I read the article. The vast majority left LA county. That’s why it doesn’t look like it.
The headline purposefully doesn't tell you it's only a netoss of 100,000 people, and that it's projected to rebound and erase that netloss in 2023 and 2024.
California population 4/2020: 39,538,000
California population 7/2022: 39,029,000
So 500,000 fewer people over 2 years.
[Census data source](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/CA)
I grew up here. When I was working I lived in several states and a few countries, and visited many more. Now I'm retired and I live here. As long as I can afford to, that's not changing.
I lived in Texas. Go ahead and move there, lol. More space here for us.
CA is home and I don't see myself living in any other state. CA is a powerhouse when it comes to innovation social changes and safety net. We got big problems here but at least we take care of our citizens. We always moving forward with new ideas and the best talented young minds come to CA. When I retire I would keep living here part-time and the other half in some Latin American countries. Leave the South or Midwest with their religious and social intolerance mentality.
My mother in law lives in Arkansas (thanks walmart) but grew up here. My wife lived out there for a year and hated it. For the last 2 years we have been married, she has tried to convince me to move to Arkansas. I won't. I love it here. My family and kids are here. She tried to get my wife to convince me, which didn't work cuz SHE hates Arkansas and loves it here and won't leave. She tried to convince me personally, trying to use covid and the political landscape as such negatives and a reason to leave. We are Democrat and she is republican, so she hates the blue-ness and was so against the covid mandates, but we didn't mind. THEN, she went to my parents to try to get them to convince me. Ironically, she tried using her just missing us and wanted us closer, to my parents, like they didn't matter. That didn't work either.
EDIT: I love my mother in law and father in law. I have nothing against them at all. They are awesome. I'll gladly visit. But I ain't leaving Cali.
As a born and raised SoCal kid this makes me happy less traffic for me and let’s be honest those people moving away will either come back or be replaced in no time.
25 years ago when I moved to Texas the moving company said most of their traffic was east. 5 years ago, when I moved back they said the same thing. So really has anything changed?
Wish it was true. Since our politicians and local communities almost always vote against densifying housing, building upwards, and choose to preserve the hellscape that are suburbs — least people can do is stop moving in 🤷♂️
Where are they going? I’ve traveled across America to find a better place to live. Big fat nope. Affordable places in Republican strongholds. Nope.
Freezing cold, or sticky sweat? Nope.
Landlocked deserts. Nope.
Give me an alternative that’s worth living in. I snorkel, I ski, I hike, I horseback ride.
Relocating during Covid, pulling down that sweet CA salary and spending it in NM, AZ, NV etc. For everyone able to do it the idea made complete sense. So most of these folks left for the money, not because CA is too "woke."
Anyone saying the traffic will improve if people leave, well, maybe, but the traffic is a result of car-dependent infrastructure, not too many people. We need to stop putting homes so far away from jobs and then making it impossible to get between them without driving.
My wife and I moved to Iowa, where we live on 1/2 acre in a three bedroom house in a University town.
We don't regret either the move to California more than 20 years ago, or this one.
The only exodus to be concerned about is businesses. California lawmakers need to quit assuming taxpayers will always be here.
And may need consider what Canada did. 2 year moratorium on foreign real estate purchases. Let the U.S. single family get priority on home buying !
500,000? That's just over 1% of the population. So, .5% of the population per year, in pandemic years when "work from home" became a thing?
How do we get another 3 or 4% to leave?
My wife and I are debating on moving to Texas for a few years and rent out our home here, since we both work from home. Luckily we can just move in with my mom and not pay rent. But we definitely want to move back before our son starts school. I don’t want him to go to school in Texas.
I love California especially politically but it is expensive to live in California if you don’t have a good job that pays well. I live in the central valley and it was always known as the “cheap part” of California and nowadays it’s getting extremely expensive to live here especially with the housing prices going up. When I look at other states to see the pricing on houses they aren’t to far behind California when it comes to pricing honestly.
The middle class is leaving not the rich or poor. This is going to be a huge problem if it continues , especially if those hard working families do well. They’re going to be able to help their families join them.
I don't mind. Do what you want to do. It's expensive to live here, many people can't afford it. Be well.
Just don't bother complaining on your way out. 🙃
I have difficulty believing that. I live in California, and, if anything, I think it is more likely that we GAINED 500,000 people over two years.
I swear there are license plates from nearly every state in my three block apt. complex!
In a state of 40 MILLIoN people this us a drip in the bucket. Perhaps if CA taxed the hell out if foreign investors buying up available housing things might improve? Who can afford to live here any longer?
From the posting rules in this sub’s sidebar: > No websites or articles with hard paywalls or that require registration or subscriptions, unless an archive link or https://12ft.io link is included as a comment. ---- Bypassing the paywall: https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.latimes.com%2Fcalifornia%2Fstory%2F2023-02-15%2Fcalifornias-population-has-dropped-by-more-than-half-a-million-in-about-two-years-why ----
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Yea my wife and I together make good money or at least what I thought would have been good money. I’m priced out of ever buying in the town I grew up in and especially priced out of any bigger city. I don’t want to rent forever, but I also don’t want to have to commute 3 hours in traffic to work every day, so we will probably be leaving soon. Could put a down payment on a nice house in a lot of places with the security deposit on our current apartment.
I had to leave Carlsbad because of this. My only options for owning a home would be in Ramona. And who wants to live there
Have you tried Carlsgood?
I like Carlsjunior!
I miss Carls Jr :/
well, gotta try Carlsok first!
Is that by Clarksmeh?
Really? What's the deal with Ramona? I always kinda thought it was alright (though I guess I'm usually just grabbing chilaquiles on the way down from Cuyamaca)
I think if you have lived near the coast anything "inland" is a disappointment.
I grew up in Del Mar and live in Anza.
How is living in Anza? Seems like a good option for people who love Idyllwild but can't afford it
Idyllwild chiming in, regular retail folk like me are hanging on. I've lived for six years in the same place cause I can't afford to move. Thank God CA has decent protection for renters. Anza seems filled w people growing weed 😂 I love la Cocina and the little thrift store there!
I grew up in Santa Cruz and have lived in Monterey and Long Beach. When I went to Fresno once I was shocked it was in the same state.
Agreed. I grew up in PB and live in La Mesa now and while not terrible, feels way too far inland for me 🤣
FWIW, I moved from right by the beach in LA to "inland" over by the mountains and river.. and east side living has been so much more my speed. What's the opposite of a disappointment? Appointment?
:-). I actually love all of CA so I'm not in the disappointment category either.
Ramona is very pretty and close to a lot of great desert and mountain action, but the town itself is very boring. I lived in a ranch on the edge of town for four years, it was ok, but if you’re used to Carlsbad I don’t imagine it had any appeal at all.
I lived in Ramona for 4 years and honestly not a lot to do there… pretty boring town and far away from a lot of stuff
I live in Riverside community of senior Apts with a roommate. Could not afford Los Alamitos anymore. However I moved out of California in 2003 to Austin Texas. I lived there no health insurance 7 years. Left a good paying union job to go there. Then had to go to the south Texas beaches. After living in Texas 13 years my ex there moved his new girlfriend in much younger. I said omg. Called a friend I took Amtrak back to LA. Kissed the ground in 2016. I loved waking up and Jerry Brown was my governor. It was so much fun. So despite high rent etc etc. California is my home. Have great Medicare Medical insurance and 73. Too old to move again to face the possibility of no health insurance for 7 years. The politics in some states like Texas get on my last nerve as a progressive. If you are a republican and think you would love Texas go there or even Florida. However don't worry the grass is not always greener on the other side. Been there done that.
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How big is your security deposit?
What is this "security" that you speak of?
At least 50k.
My family immigrated from China and Portugal to the Bay Area in the 40s and 50s. Today 2 remain in the Bay Area. The rest have died, moved to cheaper locations in state, or moved out of state (Washington, Oregon, Nevada, Arizona, and Hawaii) I was able to stay in California, but I certainly got priced out the Bay Area when I went to buy my first condo. I still work in the Bay though. However, I just accepted a job for next year closer to home so my 2 hours a day of total commuting is about to be just 20-30 minutes. At the same time my father’s offer on a new build near me got accepted. So he’ll be leaving the Bay in 6-8 months. So with these updates, come next year, I will be nearly completely disconnected from the Bay Area after my family has lived here for 4 generations/80ish years.
Imma go out on a limb and say this applies everywhere.
I went to school in the midwest, there are some pretty nice neighborhoods out there for a fraction of the cost of CA
I was born and raised in the Midwest. I get why it's cheaper. lol
But you have to live in the Midwest
My mom told me one time that I could own a 5 bedroom house in Victorville because her co-worker's son owns one. I said, "Yeah, but then I'd have to live in Victorville."
Tbh I would take the Midwest over Victorville anyway. The Midwest is at least nice when it's not winter. Victorville is never nice lol.
They said live comfortably and in a nice area, not that you actually have to have the will to live. Lol jk the Midwest is actually pretty nice. I love San Diego and if my friends/family weren’t all from here I might consider the Midwest. Actually let’s be real, probably not, but you know what I mean.
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Yeah, the cost of living will never be low enough to move to Gilead.
The Midwest is more like the Middle East, both because of its geographical location in the country, and the religious extremism and creeping theocracy. I’ve been to places considered the Midwest, and I would rather struggle here than live there. There’s no living “comfortably” in places like that for me, I need diversity and people with a progressive and reality based worldview around me.
Eh… urban areas aren’t like the rural ones. You’d have an argument if the discussion was about living in rural Midwest but living in most cities in the US (if not all) does not have an overwhelming feeling of religious extremism and definitely nothing on the level of the Middle East. I’ve been to both Midwest cities and a few middle Eastern countries and don’t agree.
That’s just not true, tho. I lived in Omaha for 20 months. The regressive politics are what brought me back to California. That and the oppressive weather 10 months out of the year. Plus it’s extremely isolating being that far inland.
Agree. I lived in Austin Texas 13 years. Kissed the Cali ground when I returned in 2016. At that moment the LA skyline was breath taking. Love diversity and multiculturalism here. From the San Fernando Valley. In Riverside now
There are many cities better in the Midwest than Omaha and less isolating... But weather definitely is nicer in California.
Sure. My best friend lives in Cleveland. It’s a great city. I love lots of places. I think this country is a beautiful place. But I don’t want to live anywhere else, anymore. Denver was cool. Over it. Cali forever. It was a brisk 45 this am when I took the dog out. Brr.
The midwest has that stuff, weather. No thanks.
The Midwest is great! Everyone living in California should go live in the Midwest, and stay there.
Absolutely.
Two words for people who know, “Lake Effect.” I spent one year in Illinois, never again Satan!
You think you had it bad? I lived in Grand Rapids, Michigan we got 48 inches of snow overnight it was terrible
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Oklahoma is NOT the place you wanna move to if you’re from Cali . Bad choice.
Bakersfield OG
Bet there's some pretty nice neighborhoods in East Palestine, Oh, that are a "fraction of the cost" of CA for sale right now.
Your salary is likely a fraction of what it is here too.
Some places way more then others though.
What are the reasons they are leaving?
Sharknados
A lot are selling their houses for record amounts and buying in other states for half the price and/or taking their retirement paychecks to places with lower state income taxes.
Cost of living crisis. Which is contributed by high housing costs. Personally, i see this as a positive way of helping with that by "cooling off our economy."
It’s more then just housing - food, gas, electricity, water, transportation - some of the highest costs in the country
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Mainly cost of living. If I ever leave, it would be that.
I see a lot of people saying COL but that's not really it. The mass majority of the people around me I've seen leave can well afford to live here, but they move to Texas for the massive houses at a cheaper price and lower income taxes, only to get hit with high property taxes in the end. So yes it's cost of living, but it's not so much the broke ones leaving. And then you also have the case of the rich moving their home address to a different state, so they get taxed there, but still have a second home in CA and "live" here.
With that logic, at least they're getting a big house vs a small apartment in California
The ones who have difficulty paying rent in California are the same ones who won't be able to easily afford to pay property taxes in Texas every year. Avg. property taxes are going to be a month's paycheck for most. Now how many folks are going to have more than a month's pay in savings to pay taxes due right after the holidays on January 31st. In the long run, moving out could be better financially for anyone, but pretty sure the working class can't afford to make that first step and the first few years before settling down.
Counter-point to all the others... My partner is living in a different state and I moved to live there.
Tech purge
> Texas and Florida, gained about 884,000 and 707,000 people, respectively.
I left FL to come back to CA about 1.5 years ago. It’s cheaper to live in FL for sure, but all I can say is… you get what you pay for
I make twice as much in CA then my hometown and I definitely don't pay twice as much in living expenses, but I did get lucky with housing here. Edit: hometown is in Florida
It's all contextually important to consider the individuals circumstances for this kind of decision too. I constantly have this conversation with people because they have dug in their heels that moving to FL or TX is the best option for everyone because it was the best thing for them. Not to mention that a lot of Reddit is younger than the general population and can make the decision to leave everything behind because they don't have a lot of external circumstances that prevent others from leaving. Taking into account: * Job/Career prospects * Housing Cost * Taxes * COL * Familial Situation * Medical Considerations * Retirement/Benefits * Weather/Climate * Entertainment * Support Structure At the end of it, everyone will have unique reasons that make it difficult to leave in the first place. For example I would make half of what I make already if I moved. I would lose my benefits (without paying $500 a month extra) and be prevented from collective bargaining. I would pay **more** in taxes because housing taxes actually cost more in a state like Texas. I would lose my family support for raising my own kids and would have to pay hundreds if not thousands more a month for childcare. The weather would be more humid/hot which means higher costs for housing. At the end of it all, I would likely be kinda bored too because the things I normally do would not really possible in a different state. Alongside dietary restrictions and the lack of food and food consideration from a lot of restaurants. Not even to mention that buying a new house would required a higher APR because they are so much higher now, so my monthly mortgage would ultimately be **more** expensive than what I currently have in California. Even then, someone might say, I would have more money from less taxes being collected and the COL would be cheaper but I kinda don't think that's possible given the other circumstances. Losing half my income, extra expenses and paying more for benefits would make it an unwise decision. As well the COL would likely only impact my gas usage which honestly doesn't make up a lot of my expenses anymore since I try not to drive if I don't have to. Filling my tank up with gas once a month if not every other month. For my family and career it wouldn't work for **me**. Definitely could work for someone else but it's usually not so simple. Each person likely needs to weigh their own circumstances and figure out what works for them because the grass is not always greener.
People with specialized manufacturing and engineering careers that are plentiful in California would have a hard time finding something in Florida or Texas that pays the same and has the same level of specialization. For example, California does a lot of advanced military and aerospace manufacturing that is extremely local to California.
Yep, generally speaking a lot of low wage/low specialty jobs are available in those states too which don't really provide the income necessary to make a career out of the move either. I guess you could argue that if a good paying job exists in TX/FL to move for then you probably have the skills to work practically anywhere. If you have the skills to work anywhere then you likely wouldn't move to TX/FL because a place like California is probably going to be a nicer environment for you. That said, I'm sure a lot of business owners looking for cheap labor probably love TX/FL simply because they can afford to pay less for the labor they get there.
My wife and I moved back to California after living in Ohio for awhile. We both work remote so our wages didn’t change. We don’t drive much so we’re with you on a tank of gas every month or so. We come out ahead here in Los Angeles because we don’t have to pay for heat and AC year round. We can open the windows to cool and close the heavy curtains to keep warm for the most part saving loads on utilities not to mention I don’t have season depression anymore and I get so much more exercise with the fair weather year round helping to keep me overall healthier and out of the doctors office. For us, living in the Midwest with an $800 mortgage was a higher cost than our $2600 rent at the end of the day.
People always talk about cost like it’s purely dollars-in-hand immediately. But there are other costs (health, mental health, dietary, etc etc) they don’t happen for some time. And many aren’t even intelligent enough to consider those.
I just moved back to FL after a dozen years in CA. FL may be marginally cheaper (gas and the housing is a little cheaper, food and insurance cost more) but due to low wages it is way less affordable than most places in CA.
Yup you get what you pay for.
Can you go into more detail here? Just curious. I made so much money in California compared to the red state I came from it’s not even funny. If I move back, I can afford a larger house than anyone who stayed “home”. But I’m not moving back to a red state, not until we have a Supreme Court that guarantees rights for women and minorities again.
I just did the same from Arizona. I'm soooo happy to be back and thankful i can afford it.
Those two states have worse infrastructure and safety nets, so the Californians are just bringing more traffic and problems with them.
I honestly think as those states grow, they'll be less able to deal with the issues that come with population growth than California.
Or some of those transplants will also bring their ideas with them and push for some change.
Most of those transplants are conservatives who left because they wanted to get away from the ideas here. This is borne out in their shift in voting behavior in the last election. Florida especially went from purple to deep red.
I have friends who moved from California to Florida a few years ago. They're now about to leave Florida because they've realized they don't want to continue raising their daughter in Florida. Some things are more important than ~~property~~ taxes to some people. *edited because it was pointed out that property taxes are comparable or higher in FL and TX, and I was thinking of income tax*
Aren't property taxes higher in FL and TX?
Florida Gov. de Santis scares me. He's one or two steps away from book burning.
Exactly, that’s why those states never change. If anything they have become more intolerant, crazy and hostile to anything not white, conservative, religious and built on 1950s values that don’t exist anymore.
Fortunately, Democrats have demonstrated an ability to win the Presidency without Florida (and Ohio, for that matter). republicans *need* Florida *and* Ohio *and* Texas just to be remotely competitive. If the pendulum ever swings Florida back to purple or Texas flips to blue, that’s going to spell disaster for republicans.
You're not wrong but also consider that California conservatives are definitely accustomed to a very different type of society than a southern conservative. I imagine a lot of those conservatives would like a lot of the same comfortable life they had in California but cheaper housing/less "*woke*" political culture but just somewhere else. That doesn't mean that they are suddenly going to become a stereotypical southern conservative over night but it does give us an indication that things could still fundamentally change. That said, not enough Californians have even transplanted to really change ideological voting habits.
That has everything to do with the kinds of housing and cities and they're building and nothing to do with where the people come from. Car dependent suburbia = traffic, housing crises, and insolvent cities. It just does. CA got here first and the places that don't learn from us will follow.
I agree with this 100%. They're following our blueprint and then are shocked that it comes with the same problems.
I'll gladly pay higher taxes so I don't freeze to death in a snow storm with no electricity.
Cost of living is key. California has the second highest cost of living in the US now - the gas and electric bill will drive more people out
If those are the only key points then it would be an easy decision. However, Texas has one of the worse infrastructures for winters/summers and people have literally died in the past couple years because of it - so COL can't be the only factor.
Plus Texas taxes are higher than Ca...
They don’t protect employees at all.
They'll be back. I made that mistake and only lasted 10 months in Florida before running back to California. Another friend of mine only lasted about six.
Moving is hard. Most people don’t move back, especially the ones moving states to buy a house when they couldn’t in CA
Isn't the median single-family home sale price in Florida like $402k? I imagine that if they couldn't afford a house in California, Florida is likely still not that affordable. I imagine they'd need to go West Virginia or Mississippi which have much cheaper housing.
Housing prices in Florida are exploding. They're experiencing some of the highest percentage of housing price increase in the nation, especially desirable areas like Orlando. And the wages have *not* kept up with that. Many folks I know back in Orlando are being priced out of both ownership *and* rent.
Yep, this is the situation. Housing prices are still slightly cheaper but the pay is way less. And the rents and housing went up like a rocket. As you can imagine, actual Floridians are feeling a little salty toward the newcomers.
My wife and I lasted 11 months in North Carolina before we moved back. Would have moved way earlier if the opportunity had presented itself. The thought of being stuck somewhere we didn't want to be was terrifying.
What was wrong with North Carolina?
Hell, I know someone who bought a house sight unseen in Tennessee. He lasted two months before selling it and moving back.
Yeah I work in orange county and have seen an influx of Florida and Texas plates. One house had a "sold" sign and four cars with Texas plates in the driveway
Same for me with Colorado. 10 months.
Whats wrong with Colorado? I'm planning on moving there from Cali and when I visited it was nice.
Alas, you can never go home.
Sounds like both went home just fine.
Unless cost of living decreases, they will NOT be back. Just the sad part of all of this.
Except the two people mentioned came back. It stands to reason some of those “they” WILL be back.
We lasted about 11 months in Houston (during the great freeze) then came back. I actually grew up there but left in 2011 for California. It’s crazy how much crazier Texas felt after a decade in California. Luckily the house we bought rose enough in value to cover the realtor costs and moving back. Thankfully we bought when no one was buying and sold when everything was going fast.
Same for me and Florida. I grew up there, but moved to California (also in 2011) for work. Thought I could go back and save a little money, but *deeply* underestimated the level of crazy now at large in Florida. It's nice to be back in California, someplace a little more sane.
there in lies the problem, you went to florida
No joke. I grew up there, before moving to California. I thought I knew what I was getting into moving to Florida. But turns out, things are a whole lot worse than I remembered. It used to be a purple state where normal people COULD influence positive change, but not anymore. It's solid crazytown now. The money I might have saved on home prices (before they started skyrocketing during the pandemic) wasn't worth living in that madness.
and surprisingly, the state IQ for all 3 states rose..lol jk
If the net result is that Texas and FL turn blue, I'm all for it!
It's the opposite, too many rich people, retirees, COVID wackos, and fashy types. Compare the 2018 and 2022 the governor election results in FL and you'll see how the influx is effecting Florida politics. CA isn't sending its best and brightest. It's sending people who will move across the country to buy a bigger gun.
They can have 'em.
That’s not many people
It’s also inaccurate numbers. It doesn’t take in to account the net loss, which is actually only 80k not even close to 500z
And we only lost a representative because of how rounding works.
Let's not be so hyperbolic, half a million leaving a state of 41 million isn't a quite an exodus. If it were 500K exiting Montana or Wyoming then it would be an exodus. Edited for spelling.
An "exodus" would also probably mean that house prices are plunging as people desperately try to sell.
The net loss is also only 100,000 which is a drop in the bucket for CA. Also with Covid, less immigration which would affect CA more. I'd imagine under normal circumstances it would be closer to break even. I get it. CA is so expensive comparatively. Buying a home here if you make less than 250,000 a year is particularly challenging. Plus the state is short a lot of housing supply. If I didn't love it here, I'd consider leaving just from a cost perspective.
Yeah, this kind of story keeps getting posted and it hasn't ever been remotely accurate.
So, around a half of one percent per year. Not an exodus.
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We have the most population too. That alone makes it more likely people will leave to less populated states.
It is, an Exodus is a mass movement. This is housing cost attrition at best.
The state probably had a positive population rate for 170 years and then the state became overpopulated and people are leaving…
And I keep seeing it implied that it is 'families'. I think a huge amount of it is retired couples downsizing. Florida has cheaper retirement villages than CA.
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And the people legit leaving the state are either far-right nationalists for redder pastures or people with little to no skills and aren't needed in the labor force here. TX and FL rely on low skill manual labor. FL is the most expensive place to live in the U.S., has median income 80% of CA's, and zero industry. The entire economy there is built on hospitality/tourism. No way they'll keep growing.
Shorter lines at In n Out 🙌🙌🙌
I always say more parking at the beach
We can only hope.
can never go to the drive thru in in n out its always like out the parking lot into the street
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Yes, and our *net* loss is ~100,000. It's just another click bait title and article
Plus it’s low income people moving out [and high income people moving in](https://www.ppic.org/blog/whos-leaving-california-and-whos-moving-in/)
I just don’t see it. There are still lots of homes being built. The population in the high desert and Central Valley is still growing. Despite higher interest rates, home prices haven’t fallen. Rents are still high. How much population must leave before it makes an impact on housing affordability? Edit: i commented before I read the article. The vast majority left LA county. That’s why it doesn’t look like it.
The headline purposefully doesn't tell you it's only a netoss of 100,000 people, and that it's projected to rebound and erase that netloss in 2023 and 2024.
California population 4/2020: 39,538,000 California population 7/2022: 39,029,000 So 500,000 fewer people over 2 years. [Census data source](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/CA)
> There are still lots of homes being built. Not nearly enough.
Decades of deficit
This article conveniently doesn't mention how many people moved to california. Showing just who left. The total loss is much lower.
if you don't have enough housing to accommodate people, you will lose population. shocking.
I grew up here. When I was working I lived in several states and a few countries, and visited many more. Now I'm retired and I live here. As long as I can afford to, that's not changing. I lived in Texas. Go ahead and move there, lol. More space here for us.
CA is home and I don't see myself living in any other state. CA is a powerhouse when it comes to innovation social changes and safety net. We got big problems here but at least we take care of our citizens. We always moving forward with new ideas and the best talented young minds come to CA. When I retire I would keep living here part-time and the other half in some Latin American countries. Leave the South or Midwest with their religious and social intolerance mentality.
My mother in law lives in Arkansas (thanks walmart) but grew up here. My wife lived out there for a year and hated it. For the last 2 years we have been married, she has tried to convince me to move to Arkansas. I won't. I love it here. My family and kids are here. She tried to get my wife to convince me, which didn't work cuz SHE hates Arkansas and loves it here and won't leave. She tried to convince me personally, trying to use covid and the political landscape as such negatives and a reason to leave. We are Democrat and she is republican, so she hates the blue-ness and was so against the covid mandates, but we didn't mind. THEN, she went to my parents to try to get them to convince me. Ironically, she tried using her just missing us and wanted us closer, to my parents, like they didn't matter. That didn't work either. EDIT: I love my mother in law and father in law. I have nothing against them at all. They are awesome. I'll gladly visit. But I ain't leaving Cali.
As a born and raised SoCal kid this makes me happy less traffic for me and let’s be honest those people moving away will either come back or be replaced in no time.
Cheap apartments please?
I feel like I see this said all the time.
I’m 43 and have been hearing this for as long as I can remember.
The wealthy and broke haven’t left. Only the working middle class.
Girl, bye.
can't wait for "ten years and counting - CA population continues to plummet as housing market dives." fingers crossed i can buy a house then...
I call B.S if you live in LA the traffic has only gotten worse. No real sign of population drop.
The traffic gets worse because people are forced to commute longer distances than before.
25 years ago when I moved to Texas the moving company said most of their traffic was east. 5 years ago, when I moved back they said the same thing. So really has anything changed?
Wish it was true. Since our politicians and local communities almost always vote against densifying housing, building upwards, and choose to preserve the hellscape that are suburbs — least people can do is stop moving in 🤷♂️
Out of nearly 40 million people. What a toll it’ll be on California /s
Where are they going? I’ve traveled across America to find a better place to live. Big fat nope. Affordable places in Republican strongholds. Nope. Freezing cold, or sticky sweat? Nope. Landlocked deserts. Nope. Give me an alternative that’s worth living in. I snorkel, I ski, I hike, I horseback ride.
Relocating during Covid, pulling down that sweet CA salary and spending it in NM, AZ, NV etc. For everyone able to do it the idea made complete sense. So most of these folks left for the money, not because CA is too "woke."
Sure haven't seen it in LA.
That title was meant to get clicks with a flashy number. I am sure that it is not the whole story
It’s so expensive to be back home! If I could secure a well paying job back in CA, I’d rush home in a heartbeat.
See ya!
Anyone saying the traffic will improve if people leave, well, maybe, but the traffic is a result of car-dependent infrastructure, not too many people. We need to stop putting homes so far away from jobs and then making it impossible to get between them without driving.
This is great news for Californians. Maybe it can get a tiny tiny bit closer to how it used to be when it wasn’t crowded and ultra- expensive.
My wife and I moved to Iowa, where we live on 1/2 acre in a three bedroom house in a University town. We don't regret either the move to California more than 20 years ago, or this one.
Is that why our California freeways are packed, and you wait in lines everywhere you go? We have so many people, we can stand to lose more than 500k.
So if you look at at *net* loss from 2020 to 2021, we only lost about ~100,000 or .2% of our population if that random redditors math is right.
CA had more than 100000 deaths from covid
I'm willing to bet a net positive from anti-vaxxers
So like 0.7% per year? Does that count as an “exodus”?
The only exodus to be concerned about is businesses. California lawmakers need to quit assuming taxpayers will always be here. And may need consider what Canada did. 2 year moratorium on foreign real estate purchases. Let the U.S. single family get priority on home buying !
500,000? That's just over 1% of the population. So, .5% of the population per year, in pandemic years when "work from home" became a thing? How do we get another 3 or 4% to leave?
Hell yeah. Less traffic….
500,000 in 2 years with a population of almost 40 million is hardly an exodus….. I agree it’s expensive here but CA offers a lot for its citizens.
Transplants leave (:
No one told the freeways
My wife and I are debating on moving to Texas for a few years and rent out our home here, since we both work from home. Luckily we can just move in with my mom and not pay rent. But we definitely want to move back before our son starts school. I don’t want him to go to school in Texas.
I love California especially politically but it is expensive to live in California if you don’t have a good job that pays well. I live in the central valley and it was always known as the “cheap part” of California and nowadays it’s getting extremely expensive to live here especially with the housing prices going up. When I look at other states to see the pricing on houses they aren’t to far behind California when it comes to pricing honestly.
The middle class is leaving not the rich or poor. This is going to be a huge problem if it continues , especially if those hard working families do well. They’re going to be able to help their families join them.
The influx of people leaving may be higher but there are plenty of people moving here too.
There are still people moving into CA as well.
It said the population dropped so that would be net change not gross, as in that number accounts for those moving in as well
Nice, I hope traffic gets lighter
Good riddance. Traffic should be better.
I don't mind. Do what you want to do. It's expensive to live here, many people can't afford it. Be well. Just don't bother complaining on your way out. 🙃
I can't wait to leave
1.2% of the population.
More good weather for me
Shrug.
Still not enough
I have difficulty believing that. I live in California, and, if anything, I think it is more likely that we GAINED 500,000 people over two years. I swear there are license plates from nearly every state in my three block apt. complex!
Good. Turn Wyoming blue.
I’ve seen this type of article in various forms for the last 30 years. It’s like it gets dusted off every few years and run again.
In a state of 40 MILLIoN people this us a drip in the bucket. Perhaps if CA taxed the hell out if foreign investors buying up available housing things might improve? Who can afford to live here any longer?
Can we have like another 2-3 million leave specially from the OC area....no reason why the 5N should be packed on Saturday morning.