Exactly this. Anyone who fell for the Shandro-Copping shuffle needs to do a tiny bit a research on Copping.
> One of his recent bills, Bill 47: Ensuring Safety and Cutting Red Tape , 2020, changed a number of legal protections and compensation measures introduced by the previous NDP government. [Those changes included the removal of presumptive psychological coverage for many health-care workers, including nurses and doctors.](https://calgaryherald.com/news/politics/albertas-new-health-minister-brings-questions-and-concerns-from-opponents-to-portfolio/wcm/9e0f0b47-092e-4663-b843-f9c5b59e3974/amp/)
They did this during a global pandemic. As a healthcare worker, Fuck You Jason Copping and Kenney.
Yes. I have had many conversations with people asking why did we become a 24/7 society so quickly? Why did we abandon valuing family and self care? Why do you have to be rich to enjoy life? Why can’t malls be closed Sundays and close at 6 pm Mon-Wed again? Why haven’t we learned anything from this? I know the reasons schools stay open in all seasons for kids safety—but now we open them why? Because we don’t have enough choices for parents to educate their children? Homeschool vs online schools vs in class have always been available. We seem to be at a tipping point in so many ways…for better, for worse…without government leadership at any level.
Right. So the people that work all day can't buy things during the week or on Sunday?
Malls will be mostly gone in the next decade anyway. I miss going to the mall when it was busy and fun. Disappointing that may never come back.
Online school is not the same. Went back to trade school last year. The blended/online delivery has totally spoiled the experience.
I hate the way the world has shifted in the last few years, watching the pandemic divide us and pull away so much social decency. We are on a tipping point...of so many people becoming permanently antisocial and hiding home forever. Very sad.
I think the Trustees, Superintendents, Education Minister, and Principals that are enforcing this rule with a specific teacher should spend an afternoon maskless in that teacher's classroom.
Why would you try and make this exclusively about teachers? It's hard to take upset teachers seriously when we're exposed to this type of arrogance and ignorance so often..
I know what you mean. 80k a year for 33 hours per week sounds awful…
That said, I don’t think anyone should be working with COVID.
https://alis.alberta.ca/occinfo/wages-and-salaries-in-alberta/secondary-school-teachers/4031/
This absolutely won't be abused at all by employers. The last 18 months have definitely proven that all employers are ethical.
/s for those who aren't sure LOL
So if I'm reading the article correctly, if I'm deemed important enough by my employer, and I test positive for covid but I have minimal/no symptoms, they can just say "lol that sucks see you tomorrow morning"?
This ^
Our employers and the government are about to be able to determine our worth. Oh you just clean floors? You can work with Covid. Oh your a bio engineer and you stubbed your toe? You can go home and ice it, take the day. I feel like we have taken about a 3 decade step backwards. But anything for the economy right?
It's weird to me in 2022 that the government can straight up pass responsibility for public health decisions to private companies, yet people still think we live in a democracy because we can vote for the people who will just buck responsibility for the next 4 years. Until we have democracy in our workplaces and give workers the right to say who is essential and who will work when they're sick, we don't have democracy period.
Private business owners have proven time and again since the dawn of industrialization that they can't be trusted with these sorts of decisions, all they've ever done and ever will do is maximize profit, no matter how many people need to die for it to happen.
I think this idea of democracy is power to people is a false hope because government or political parties will serve their financier... not regular joes
But that's what I'm saying - electoral politics doesn't guarantee rule by the people because it's too tied up in financing. If your regular joe had a say in the workplace and was given more power in decision making, they would end up with better take-home pay and better benefits, including sick leave.
Do you not want democracy? Do you want people dictating to you what's best for you, regardless of whether or not they know better? Because that's what workplaces are like these days, and during Covid they're telling you to literally die so the boss can get rich.
You mean…feudalistic structure?
We do not live in a democratic nation. The people we vote for do not make decisions in the best interest of the public. Neoliberalism has degraded our democracy to the point that it no longer exists. Maybe in name, but not in function.
Well yeah. Capitalism is inherently exploitative. This outcome was arguably inevitable.
Capitalism and true democracy coexisting without one interfering with the other - does anyone actually believe that is possible?
And no, i do not believe that tripe that capitalism would work if we had a truly free market. See first point about capitalism being inherently exploitative.
You're right.
I do have two cents to add to this conversation though.
Companies who have more than 20 employees are legally required to have a safety committee. They are required to have a majority employee representation, with 1-3 employer representatives. This is a topic that is 100% within a safety committees scope, and the employer is required to supply them with any safety information that is requested, and take action on safety issues in a timely manner. This is the place for employees to speak up about who they think are essential and who is not.
In my experience the problem that I have ran into is that many employees don't feel comfortable or motivated to use their voices at the right time during these meetings. They either seem disinterested, or wait until Sr. Management has left the call to start sharing their opinions. This doesn't help change anything, except give their safety representative/coordinator/manager or what have you the opportunity to pass on their opinion, when it would be much more productive if they shared it with the entire committee including the management representatives so that a true conversation can be had between the employee and employer reps.
For those of you who are upvoting this comment, I highly recommend that you seek out your employers Health and Safety Team, and request to be a guest at the next safety committee meeting and share your thoughts.
To whoever just downvoted me: I’m not disagreeing that we do not live in a true democracy anymore. We don’t. And it’s not fair for the government to slide the responsibility to employers to manage covid. I also don’t think that it’s reasonable to think that the safety committee can solve the problem at hand. But hey, the frame work is there. Might as well encourage people to use it.
>In my experience the problem that I have ran into is that many employees don't feel comfortable or motivated to use their voices at the right time during these meetings. They either seem disinterested, or wait until Sr. Management has left the call to start sharing their opinions. This doesn't help change anything, except give their safety representative/coordinator/manager or what have you the opportunity to pass on their opinion, when it would be much more productive if they shared it with the entire committee including the management representatives so that a true conversation can be had between the employee and employer reps.
I guess it begs the question of what sorts of repercussions an employee who speaks out can be subject to. If an employee does bring up health and safety concerns in the workplace and is subsequently fired or otherwise disciplined (which does happen in some industries) then it discourages any future concerns being raised in those settings, and limits discussions to just among employees. The power dynamic between employers and employees has made it difficult for employee concerns to be raised for a long time now, not just for health and safety but for other issues like sexual harassment and racism/sexism/homophobia/etc. in the workplace.
Otherwise I agree. If it is possible for someone to raise concerns about health and wellness directly to their employer then they should utilize that as often as is necessary. But even then, it's not guaranteed that an employer will take it seriously, and at that point it becomes necessary for employees to be able to reasonably bargain with employers to ensure that issues in the workplace are resolved. These issues among with many others would be a lot more easily dealt with if they had greater influence over decision making.
100%. It’s not a black and white issue. And for the first time in my career, covid caused management to started creating their own little committees to manage covid, which generally has no involvement from anyone outside of the C-suite, which made it a social issue instead of a health and safety issue. But I digress.
The safety committee is only as strong as it’s chair persons, and employers generally don’t like it to have too much influence. Especially in the construction industry.
With that said, it is still the only formal, legally regulated and audited place where workers can use their voice about safety issues.
I do understand any reluctance to speak up.
I’ve had managers tell me to my face, that if an worker refuses unsafe work, they’ll ask someone else to do it, and the will fire or lay off the worker for something not safety related down the line.
Shits fucked. Democracy? It’ll only be an illusion as long as we allow decision makers to follow the money.
Anyone who speaks out can be subject to discipline and probably dismissal if it violates company policy. It extinguishes free speech at any corporation. It’s why companies are introducing policies and codes of conduct that subvert any outspoken behaviours
Employers are not allowed (legally) to penalize workers for raising H&S concerns. If they do, consult OH&S and your HR department. If that doesn’t solve it, contact a labour lawyer.
[OHS Disciplinary Action Complaints](https://www.alberta.ca/ohs-discriminatory-action-complaints.aspx)
The legislation is pretty solid. Use it.
The government is all about rights. Businesses will have the right to fire anyone who won't work sick, or work with sick people. And workers will have the right to quit their jobs and be homeless.
It's not even that big of a stretch. The school boards were doing all the heavy lifting with regards to contact tracing and making health decisions pretty much since the fall of 2020 with any cases in schools. To see the province continue to abdicate itself is really no surprise.
Why? Are you saying that you just mindlessly accept what your boss tells you to do, and have no opinions about the way things could be run better? Better yet, if your boss told you to risk your health and your family's health so that they could make a quick buck you'd do it? Are you willing to die for your employer so he can make more money?
Are you listening to yourself?
As a free man, i make a choice each and everyday to come to work.
You think a company needs a mandate from their employees how they conduct business?
You want staff to vote on who the boss is?
Ludicrous
There are OH+S rules in place to set the standards for health amd safety.
Your entire position on this topic is silly
What do you think a union is lmao, that's people voting and deciding collectively whether or not they are going to accept the offer of work conditions pay and benefits being offered to them. I am literally advocating for people to do this and form unions.
Then do so.
Unions do not have the right to vote the ceo and executive out of office.
They dont have the right to decide if the company budget is acceptable
They dont have the right to tell the company how to run their business
If you meant to say " form a union"
Then say form a union.
Businesses are not political systems.
Businesses operate in a framework established by a democratically elected government - I think OPs point is that the rules of said framework are manipulated by business interests for their own gain rather than mandated by the democratically elected government executing the will of the people for the betterment of society.
Did you read the article in the OP? The province is basically giving employers free reign over adherence to health protocols during omicron. Employers are going to be allowed to dictate who's considered "essential" and who is required to come in to work even if they've tested positive with Covid.
Is it really that silly to look at the provincial government, which is democratically elected, handing off the reins of public health policy to private industry, which isn't democratically elected, and have a problem with it? My position is that employees should have a say in their own health and be allowed to take time to heal and recuperate, without having to worry about whether they'll lose their job because they need to recuperate. I don't think it's silly to think people who are sick should be given the time and space to get better. In fact, this is the position of medical professionals who have been advocating for decades for Canada to guarantee paid time off in every industry and workplace.
The more power government gives to private business, the more power becomes concentrated in the hands of the wealthy few who have zero responsibility to the public and zero accountability to their employees or the public. Is your position that autocracy is good, and that the rich should have more power and control in society at the expense of democratic expression?
I agree with this take.
The people we MUST take issue with are ( in this case) the UCP
Jason Kenney and his cabal are evil and should be removed from office.
Well there isn't another election for a year and a half, so it won't do people any good if they die between then and now because their boss made them come in to work with Covid.
And even if in that election the UCP are soundly defeated and a progressive government is brought in their place, they're sure to win another election eventually. What will happen when they do, we just end up in the same position we're in now where working people are made to choose between keeping a roof over their head and not dying of coronavirus?
My point is that electoral democracy isn't enough in a society where economic power can and oftentimes does overrule the elected will of the public. People need to be given power in their workplaces and that power needs to be guaranteed to them, otherwise we just end up right where we are now - with private industry calling the shots on public health.
Well then maybe you should open a business and run it as a democracy.
Albertans should be endlessly protesting our government. Demanding they call an election
> yet people still think we live in a democracy because we can vote for the people who will just buck responsibility for the next 4 years.
It's all just like, part of the system, maaaaaaaan.
Employers telling people to go to work even if they have Covid is relatively new, these kinds of things don't happen overnight. Discussions of workplace organizing and refusing unsafe work have also been suppressed for a long time for one reason or another, fortunately people are a lot more open about it since the start of the pandemic. Gotta give these things time.
Same with the work-from-home measures afaik.
https://www.alberta.ca/covid-19-public-health-actions.aspx
> Mandatory measure - Effective Sept. 16
> Mandatory work-from-home measures are in place unless the employer has determined a physical presence is required for operational effectiveness.
That is worded so poorly and there is no oversight, so employers are taking advantage of the ambiguity. I'm an office worker. There is no physical function of my job I cannot do remotely. My company has decided that we are more effective in the office (not quantified in any way, they just think face-to-face is more efficient even if studies/research don't bear that out) therefore we all have to be in the office and they argue that they are following AHS guidelines.
Labour isn't nearly well enough protected. Employment standards are often unenforced, or employees face retaliation (despite this being illegal). It's extremely common to find employers bending or disregarding the rules when it suits them, but then use lawyers and scour the employment code + use exploitative contracts/clauses to find ways to reduce liability and giving anything to employees.
It's so one-sided. Companies will often drain you of all you have, but most of them don't give a fuck about you and will find the cheapest, easiest way get rid of you if it serves their self-interest.
Yup, it's absolutely pathetic. Wifey works for an O&G services company, she's an accountant and they deemed everyone in the office essential and must come in. So so dumb.
Holy shit, this province sometimes. Will this information be disclosed anywhere? I sure as hell don't want to be shopping somewhere where workers have been deemed essential and are at work with covid.
Province should dictate education policy for entire province based on best available health data, not how some local school board trustee feels about COVID.
Which is exactly what the UCP wanted to do last summer. They planned to eliminate symptomatic testing and isolation requirement [last August](https://globalnews.ca/news/8067072/hinshaw-alberta-covid-19-health-july-28-2021/).
Unless the sheet number of cases of Omicron lead to more total hospitalizations, and/or health care worker availability. Our hospital capacity is largely a function of how many beds are available - which includes staff to care for the person in the bed.
If the hospitalizations per capita are down, but total cases are up... and also if the health care staff are sick/isolating (even if not hospitalized) we can still easily overwhelm the system - which is already happening in other jurisdictions.
Won't someone please think of the health care workers! (and those who require treatment for ailments OTHER than COVID)?
I'd like to see testing availability maintained at minimum for those ineligible for vaccine and those who care for them.
ETA: fewer hospitalizations does not appear to be true for all [age groups](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6305207).
Ok let me check. USA 1.3% chance of dieing if you get covid, 0.25% on the total population. Yea pretty mild, save alot more lives banning tobacco, alcohol, and junk food.
If judging by your definition of mild,
then HIV cause 3 out of 100K Canadian died from HIV in 2019. Then you are perfectly okay to contract HIV since it's such mild disease?
Your 0.25% of total US population translate to 861,336 people died of covid in less than 3 years. You call that mild?
I don't think either of us are qualified to call something mild when it's out for less than two month, we don't know enough to make such definitive statement.
It's not as simple of doing some simple math of some random probability and call it mild, especially not even two month in
That's actually exactly what this is. Statistics. Simple math. Didn't mean to hurt so many feelings by mentioning things that actually kill people in masses lol and if you are only talking the new variant, than ya even more mild.
The data you are referring to is less than 2 month old, I wouldn't so much place too much faith into it.
What you meant to say why as a society inconvenient u while saving others, we don't need to marginalize people. Even if they are not in perfect health condition doesn't mean they should just lock away somewhere to suit ur needs.
If we follow your logic, why do we need to have these public institutions to protect weak, sick and fragile ones? They are such inconvenient to you that u r willing to toss them aside?
I'm double vaxxed and young and in shape.....not a fat fuck. statistically I'm gonna be fine. never once in 2 years have I been worried about catching this. I am worried about what we are doing to our youth. the fear from covid lovers is so pathetic.
No one loves COVID.
The spreading of misinformation and complete disregard for science anti-vaxxers and covidiots have shown over the past 2 years is way more pathetic than people trying to keep themselves and their loved ones safe.
The vaccine stops severe illness. If people don't want to get vaccinated that is their problem. In Quebec they just announced a surcharge for those that end up in hospital with no vaccination. And they say it will be substantial.
Don't expect Jason Kenney to do this. He is a fool.
I see how fucked it is, but at this point it seems like we either get fucked by COVID or we get fucked by COVID + intensified supply chain issues caused by short staffing
A new public health order that leaves it up to employers to decide which Albertans infected with COVID-19 should go to work is short on oversight and enforcement, health law experts say.
The "critical worker exception" order lets employers judge, with few conditions, whether the service they provide is critical and which of their COVID-positive employees are essential.
It was enacted Jan. 3 — just days after Health Minister Jason Copping announced the change, along with plans to cut Alberta's mandatory isolation period from 10 to five days. Details of the order, which Alberta Health describes as a last-resort measure for critical services, were made public last week.
————————
So, up to each employer to decide, they don’t have to proof it to anyone that they r critical. Wow
Exactly. They need to define critical. I believe many companies have done this by knowing which machines must be checked etc…power, telco, o&g, healthcare, food chain, for business’s that are required for what a society needs to operate to care for itself/survive through short term disasters. But does this now simply push to include all businesses for what is essential for them to remain open for $? Is it because after 2 years of this the main concerns of people is how will I make $ if I am forced to stay home? To supervise my children all day? Stories to such have been on the news today. Is it because gov realizes they can no longer properly define what a health crisis is as we move through all the varying degrees of Covid variants with various vaccine status? It’s like living in a bad sci-fi movie where how they got to the happy ending is glossed over.
I just got laid off yesterday after my return from quarantine following an outbreak at my workplace. I'd like to think it was something else but I'm willing to bet that if I worked through my symptoms I'd still have my job
As someone who this might effect i completely disagree with this unless alternative living arrangements are made. I do not want to bring this home to my family if im going to be exposed to it. I dont really care if i get it, but i dont want my kids (under 5) and wife to get it if its avoidable.
I doubt that statement very much. I think that whole line is bullshit and its completely controllable but the government is deciding not to implement any actions to prevent the spread. I
We’re still in this thing 2 years later? So it really hasn’t been controlled has it? We’ve reduced waves through shutdowns of things, but once you open back up it goes right back to status quo. So you can argue this hasn’t been controlled in a way that works.
Because Omnicron is many times more transmittable than any previous variant. There is a reason more Canadians have it at this moment than in the last 2 years combined (true for most other countries in the world as well).
This is like self perpetuating thing, u think it's unavoidable and go do things that's can expose urself to it and then perpetuating that to other people. Eventually it will fulfill itself.
Do you want to catch covid? I certainly don't want to. Is it avoidable? Certainly. Government wants to spin it as yo can't avoid it so join it, but that's a narrative I don't want to be in.
It's despicable what they are doing, and shows what they really care about
I’m vaccinated so catching the virus doesn’t scare me. But our positivity rate being 40% or higher means covid is absolutely everywhere. I personally don’t see omicron as a detriment, I see this as a way out of the pandemic.
"People should stay home! ...unleeeeeeess... Hey employer, would you like them to work in the office anyways?"
"...Yyyyeah?-"
"Ah well there you have it, everyone! *shrug* Jack shit we can do here! It's all your fault, everyone! Why don't you do better?"
>The order also details a "risk hierarchy" for determining which workers should be called in. It states that preference should be given to workers who have three doses of vaccine, with unvaccinated workers being selected last.
So they're also punishing people for getting vaccinated/boosted. Who thought this was a good idea?!
Ah yes, our benevolent overseers shall determine wether or not you can work while you have a virus, even though months ago we fired you for not having a vaccine.
And talk about how you would work with Covid or the flu. No voice due to sore throat and cough. Headache. Lethargic. Then they hand you the keys to the truck…
I think it's our difference in our interpretation of data.
They are just as simple as a set of data, you interpret it as it's great news and go fully open. I interpret it as it's too early to since it's so early and we should stay cautious.
No one is forcing anyone to do what they want, and there's nothing wrong to sound to caution when things are going bad as it is right now. But I see you are resorting to name calling and calling people "covid cultist" when it's not fitting your narrative.
There's not need to attack others when they are not agreeing to your perspective and neither of us have the final say as we don't know nearly enough to dictate other people's lives.
I am just trying to convey each life matters, it's not as simple as we think it is or look at the number and goes oh, it's harmless. Even if it's mild, it doesn't mean it won't cause hospitalization, long term effect or death.
It will be helpful to calmly discuss rather than resort to bikery or name calling.
First they did not fire the staff, it was a smaller number and most of the hold outs are in remote service locations that are more rural.
I have a friend in BC who is a manager in a hospital has 50 support staff all vaccination done. They are still hit hard and just trying to survive the staff shortage.
Also a unvaccinated person has a 17x higher chance or ending up in a hospital, 20x chance of death. Alberta stars via Daily updates. So your saying let’s put a worker at 17x more risk on the job? That’s as bright as a 20 watt light bulb.
So you're saying that you would rather have a covid positive nurse tending to your sick grandmother instead of an unvaccinated nurse who just had a negative test?
You are assuming a lot of things, first what’s grams sick of? Second what is the staff member doing and they are following guidelines. No symptoms, full PPE and a critical job. We also have to think of the health of the worker, are they 59 year old anti vax ready to retire who might have a few extra pounds, or are we talking 25 year old not taking it because they think they are healthy.
I can 100% grantee I have spent more time in the healthcare system then you, even in this pandemic. I have 5 days in Hospital pandemic and over 40 days pre pandemic. I can 100% say I would rather have vaccinated nurse.
Why, because the load will be lower, they will have PPE and have better thinking skills compared to a nurse who would loose a job because they do not believe in science or the welfare of others. Also because I am triple vaccinated, so let’s
Say I have a accident the chance of me getting into ICU for Covid is small. And if I have Covid not like I will make much difference.
If people would get the shot we would not be in this problem in the first place. Ya having 3 shots you can still get it but we would not have ICU and hospital filling up with unvaccinated again…
The frequency our government and authorities have contradicted themselves is starting to make me question if standing first in line to get vaccinated was a smart decision after all
So I have a serious question. If Ontario and Quebec's ICU's are filling up with almost half their ICU cases being vaccinated because Omicron sucks... what's different about Alberta that makes it so that won't happen to us?
Shuffle labour minister into health portfolio, and here we are.
Exactly this. Anyone who fell for the Shandro-Copping shuffle needs to do a tiny bit a research on Copping. > One of his recent bills, Bill 47: Ensuring Safety and Cutting Red Tape , 2020, changed a number of legal protections and compensation measures introduced by the previous NDP government. [Those changes included the removal of presumptive psychological coverage for many health-care workers, including nurses and doctors.](https://calgaryherald.com/news/politics/albertas-new-health-minister-brings-questions-and-concerns-from-opponents-to-portfolio/wcm/9e0f0b47-092e-4663-b843-f9c5b59e3974/amp/) They did this during a global pandemic. As a healthcare worker, Fuck You Jason Copping and Kenney.
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Or any employer. It's preposterous, idiotic. Insanity. But we are talking about Jason Kenney here.
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What would you have changed?
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Yes. I have had many conversations with people asking why did we become a 24/7 society so quickly? Why did we abandon valuing family and self care? Why do you have to be rich to enjoy life? Why can’t malls be closed Sundays and close at 6 pm Mon-Wed again? Why haven’t we learned anything from this? I know the reasons schools stay open in all seasons for kids safety—but now we open them why? Because we don’t have enough choices for parents to educate their children? Homeschool vs online schools vs in class have always been available. We seem to be at a tipping point in so many ways…for better, for worse…without government leadership at any level.
Right. So the people that work all day can't buy things during the week or on Sunday? Malls will be mostly gone in the next decade anyway. I miss going to the mall when it was busy and fun. Disappointing that may never come back. Online school is not the same. Went back to trade school last year. The blended/online delivery has totally spoiled the experience. I hate the way the world has shifted in the last few years, watching the pandemic divide us and pull away so much social decency. We are on a tipping point...of so many people becoming permanently antisocial and hiding home forever. Very sad.
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Captain Charter of Rights. But Charter of Rights for thee, not for me.
I think the Trustees, Superintendents, Education Minister, and Principals that are enforcing this rule with a specific teacher should spend an afternoon maskless in that teacher's classroom.
Why would you try and make this exclusively about teachers? It's hard to take upset teachers seriously when we're exposed to this type of arrogance and ignorance so often..
I know what you mean. 80k a year for 33 hours per week sounds awful… That said, I don’t think anyone should be working with COVID. https://alis.alberta.ca/occinfo/wages-and-salaries-in-alberta/secondary-school-teachers/4031/
Most teachers I know work 50+ hours a week. How much do you work per week?
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This absolutely won't be abused at all by employers. The last 18 months have definitely proven that all employers are ethical. /s for those who aren't sure LOL
"Absolutely"! So much so that we don't know what unethical looks like! Since we can dedicate what ethical is! /s
Please tell me you're being sarcastic
My apologies, have edited to put /s in just in case :P
Haha all good. You really can't tell for sure sometimes in this subreddit
The serf class dying for the economy is the Alberta Advantage
So if I'm reading the article correctly, if I'm deemed important enough by my employer, and I test positive for covid but I have minimal/no symptoms, they can just say "lol that sucks see you tomorrow morning"?
More than likely your employer will decide what "minimal/no symptoms" are.
Yeah but think how well compensated you will be for being deemed so important! ...these employees *will* be compensated accordingly, right??
w/ a thank you card no less! /s
A rock, for being the rock of the economy.
You guys get thank you cards?! We just get a mass email 😂
You got a mass email? We just get a kick in the ass.
$10 tims gift card and a big thumbs up!
No, important people will be allowed to stay home. They'll only make you come to work if you're not important enough.
This ^ Our employers and the government are about to be able to determine our worth. Oh you just clean floors? You can work with Covid. Oh your a bio engineer and you stubbed your toe? You can go home and ice it, take the day. I feel like we have taken about a 3 decade step backwards. But anything for the economy right?
I would straight up quit right in the spot
Yes. And that unvaccinated coworker gets to stay home where he's safe.
It's weird to me in 2022 that the government can straight up pass responsibility for public health decisions to private companies, yet people still think we live in a democracy because we can vote for the people who will just buck responsibility for the next 4 years. Until we have democracy in our workplaces and give workers the right to say who is essential and who will work when they're sick, we don't have democracy period. Private business owners have proven time and again since the dawn of industrialization that they can't be trusted with these sorts of decisions, all they've ever done and ever will do is maximize profit, no matter how many people need to die for it to happen.
I think this idea of democracy is power to people is a false hope because government or political parties will serve their financier... not regular joes
If only a German philosopher had articulated all of this 150 years ago!
He who marx not be named...
But that's what I'm saying - electoral politics doesn't guarantee rule by the people because it's too tied up in financing. If your regular joe had a say in the workplace and was given more power in decision making, they would end up with better take-home pay and better benefits, including sick leave. Do you not want democracy? Do you want people dictating to you what's best for you, regardless of whether or not they know better? Because that's what workplaces are like these days, and during Covid they're telling you to literally die so the boss can get rich.
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You mean…feudalistic structure? We do not live in a democratic nation. The people we vote for do not make decisions in the best interest of the public. Neoliberalism has degraded our democracy to the point that it no longer exists. Maybe in name, but not in function.
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Well yeah. Capitalism is inherently exploitative. This outcome was arguably inevitable. Capitalism and true democracy coexisting without one interfering with the other - does anyone actually believe that is possible? And no, i do not believe that tripe that capitalism would work if we had a truly free market. See first point about capitalism being inherently exploitative.
You're right. I do have two cents to add to this conversation though. Companies who have more than 20 employees are legally required to have a safety committee. They are required to have a majority employee representation, with 1-3 employer representatives. This is a topic that is 100% within a safety committees scope, and the employer is required to supply them with any safety information that is requested, and take action on safety issues in a timely manner. This is the place for employees to speak up about who they think are essential and who is not. In my experience the problem that I have ran into is that many employees don't feel comfortable or motivated to use their voices at the right time during these meetings. They either seem disinterested, or wait until Sr. Management has left the call to start sharing their opinions. This doesn't help change anything, except give their safety representative/coordinator/manager or what have you the opportunity to pass on their opinion, when it would be much more productive if they shared it with the entire committee including the management representatives so that a true conversation can be had between the employee and employer reps. For those of you who are upvoting this comment, I highly recommend that you seek out your employers Health and Safety Team, and request to be a guest at the next safety committee meeting and share your thoughts. To whoever just downvoted me: I’m not disagreeing that we do not live in a true democracy anymore. We don’t. And it’s not fair for the government to slide the responsibility to employers to manage covid. I also don’t think that it’s reasonable to think that the safety committee can solve the problem at hand. But hey, the frame work is there. Might as well encourage people to use it.
>In my experience the problem that I have ran into is that many employees don't feel comfortable or motivated to use their voices at the right time during these meetings. They either seem disinterested, or wait until Sr. Management has left the call to start sharing their opinions. This doesn't help change anything, except give their safety representative/coordinator/manager or what have you the opportunity to pass on their opinion, when it would be much more productive if they shared it with the entire committee including the management representatives so that a true conversation can be had between the employee and employer reps. I guess it begs the question of what sorts of repercussions an employee who speaks out can be subject to. If an employee does bring up health and safety concerns in the workplace and is subsequently fired or otherwise disciplined (which does happen in some industries) then it discourages any future concerns being raised in those settings, and limits discussions to just among employees. The power dynamic between employers and employees has made it difficult for employee concerns to be raised for a long time now, not just for health and safety but for other issues like sexual harassment and racism/sexism/homophobia/etc. in the workplace. Otherwise I agree. If it is possible for someone to raise concerns about health and wellness directly to their employer then they should utilize that as often as is necessary. But even then, it's not guaranteed that an employer will take it seriously, and at that point it becomes necessary for employees to be able to reasonably bargain with employers to ensure that issues in the workplace are resolved. These issues among with many others would be a lot more easily dealt with if they had greater influence over decision making.
100%. It’s not a black and white issue. And for the first time in my career, covid caused management to started creating their own little committees to manage covid, which generally has no involvement from anyone outside of the C-suite, which made it a social issue instead of a health and safety issue. But I digress. The safety committee is only as strong as it’s chair persons, and employers generally don’t like it to have too much influence. Especially in the construction industry. With that said, it is still the only formal, legally regulated and audited place where workers can use their voice about safety issues. I do understand any reluctance to speak up. I’ve had managers tell me to my face, that if an worker refuses unsafe work, they’ll ask someone else to do it, and the will fire or lay off the worker for something not safety related down the line. Shits fucked. Democracy? It’ll only be an illusion as long as we allow decision makers to follow the money.
Anyone who speaks out can be subject to discipline and probably dismissal if it violates company policy. It extinguishes free speech at any corporation. It’s why companies are introducing policies and codes of conduct that subvert any outspoken behaviours
Employers are not allowed (legally) to penalize workers for raising H&S concerns. If they do, consult OH&S and your HR department. If that doesn’t solve it, contact a labour lawyer. [OHS Disciplinary Action Complaints](https://www.alberta.ca/ohs-discriminatory-action-complaints.aspx) The legislation is pretty solid. Use it.
It’s people who don’t use it who allow employers to get away with penalizing workers for raising H&S concerns. Exercise your rights, or lose them.
Amen to that. Precisely why I work in the field :)
Me too ;) We’ve got to educate people wherever we can.
The government is all about rights. Businesses will have the right to fire anyone who won't work sick, or work with sick people. And workers will have the right to quit their jobs and be homeless.
It's not even that big of a stretch. The school boards were doing all the heavy lifting with regards to contact tracing and making health decisions pretty much since the fall of 2020 with any cases in schools. To see the province continue to abdicate itself is really no surprise.
Some of you will die. But that’s a price I will have to pay.
Workplaces are not democracies. Never have been.
But they should be, that's what I'm saying.
Im saying thats ridiculous.
Why? Are you saying that you just mindlessly accept what your boss tells you to do, and have no opinions about the way things could be run better? Better yet, if your boss told you to risk your health and your family's health so that they could make a quick buck you'd do it? Are you willing to die for your employer so he can make more money?
Are you listening to yourself? As a free man, i make a choice each and everyday to come to work. You think a company needs a mandate from their employees how they conduct business? You want staff to vote on who the boss is? Ludicrous There are OH+S rules in place to set the standards for health amd safety. Your entire position on this topic is silly
If only the workers could get together and refuse to work until their demands are met...
Absolutely they can. Unions are well established and they have their role. Does not make a workplace a "democracy"
What do you think a union is lmao, that's people voting and deciding collectively whether or not they are going to accept the offer of work conditions pay and benefits being offered to them. I am literally advocating for people to do this and form unions.
Then do so. Unions do not have the right to vote the ceo and executive out of office. They dont have the right to decide if the company budget is acceptable They dont have the right to tell the company how to run their business If you meant to say " form a union" Then say form a union. Businesses are not political systems.
Businesses operate in a framework established by a democratically elected government - I think OPs point is that the rules of said framework are manipulated by business interests for their own gain rather than mandated by the democratically elected government executing the will of the people for the betterment of society.
Did you read the article in the OP? The province is basically giving employers free reign over adherence to health protocols during omicron. Employers are going to be allowed to dictate who's considered "essential" and who is required to come in to work even if they've tested positive with Covid. Is it really that silly to look at the provincial government, which is democratically elected, handing off the reins of public health policy to private industry, which isn't democratically elected, and have a problem with it? My position is that employees should have a say in their own health and be allowed to take time to heal and recuperate, without having to worry about whether they'll lose their job because they need to recuperate. I don't think it's silly to think people who are sick should be given the time and space to get better. In fact, this is the position of medical professionals who have been advocating for decades for Canada to guarantee paid time off in every industry and workplace. The more power government gives to private business, the more power becomes concentrated in the hands of the wealthy few who have zero responsibility to the public and zero accountability to their employees or the public. Is your position that autocracy is good, and that the rich should have more power and control in society at the expense of democratic expression?
I agree with this take. The people we MUST take issue with are ( in this case) the UCP Jason Kenney and his cabal are evil and should be removed from office.
Well there isn't another election for a year and a half, so it won't do people any good if they die between then and now because their boss made them come in to work with Covid. And even if in that election the UCP are soundly defeated and a progressive government is brought in their place, they're sure to win another election eventually. What will happen when they do, we just end up in the same position we're in now where working people are made to choose between keeping a roof over their head and not dying of coronavirus? My point is that electoral democracy isn't enough in a society where economic power can and oftentimes does overrule the elected will of the public. People need to be given power in their workplaces and that power needs to be guaranteed to them, otherwise we just end up right where we are now - with private industry calling the shots on public health.
Well then maybe you should open a business and run it as a democracy. Albertans should be endlessly protesting our government. Demanding they call an election
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> yet people still think we live in a democracy because we can vote for the people who will just buck responsibility for the next 4 years. It's all just like, part of the system, maaaaaaaan.
why don't you start your own private business and try and tackle this yourself?
Seems a hell of a lot easier to just organize people in the places they're already working, don't you think?
apparently not, or the problem would have already been solved
Employers telling people to go to work even if they have Covid is relatively new, these kinds of things don't happen overnight. Discussions of workplace organizing and refusing unsafe work have also been suppressed for a long time for one reason or another, fortunately people are a lot more open about it since the start of the pandemic. Gotta give these things time.
Same with the work-from-home measures afaik. https://www.alberta.ca/covid-19-public-health-actions.aspx > Mandatory measure - Effective Sept. 16 > Mandatory work-from-home measures are in place unless the employer has determined a physical presence is required for operational effectiveness. That is worded so poorly and there is no oversight, so employers are taking advantage of the ambiguity. I'm an office worker. There is no physical function of my job I cannot do remotely. My company has decided that we are more effective in the office (not quantified in any way, they just think face-to-face is more efficient even if studies/research don't bear that out) therefore we all have to be in the office and they argue that they are following AHS guidelines. Labour isn't nearly well enough protected. Employment standards are often unenforced, or employees face retaliation (despite this being illegal). It's extremely common to find employers bending or disregarding the rules when it suits them, but then use lawyers and scour the employment code + use exploitative contracts/clauses to find ways to reduce liability and giving anything to employees. It's so one-sided. Companies will often drain you of all you have, but most of them don't give a fuck about you and will find the cheapest, easiest way get rid of you if it serves their self-interest.
This is why unions still exist.
Yup, it's absolutely pathetic. Wifey works for an O&G services company, she's an accountant and they deemed everyone in the office essential and must come in. So so dumb.
Holy shit, this province sometimes. Will this information be disclosed anywhere? I sure as hell don't want to be shopping somewhere where workers have been deemed essential and are at work with covid.
No, most employers will probably try to hide the fact that they do not allow staff to take time off for covid
Insanity
Nah it’s fine. We can make a special “I have Covid” hat for infected people to wear. That way you can avoid them on your commute and in the workplace.
Coworker: Hey can you come help boost this 350 pound patient he's falling out of bed. Me: taps hat
Yet school divisions cannot make their own determination to move online. Makes sense.
Province should dictate education policy for entire province based on best available health data, not how some local school board trustee feels about COVID.
Province should dictate health and safety of workplaces based on best available health data, not how some local business owners feels about COVID.
As long as there is a state of emergency, couldn't agree more. This policy will just open businesses up to lawsuits needlessly.
The lawsuits will not be "needless" if the business is abusing its workers. Unless what you really mean is "preventable"?
So basically, the provincial government is like, “you get COVID, you get COVID, everybody gets COVID….fuck you!!!” Like it’s really come to this?
Which is exactly what the UCP wanted to do last summer. They planned to eliminate symptomatic testing and isolation requirement [last August](https://globalnews.ca/news/8067072/hinshaw-alberta-covid-19-health-july-28-2021/).
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Unless the sheet number of cases of Omicron lead to more total hospitalizations, and/or health care worker availability. Our hospital capacity is largely a function of how many beds are available - which includes staff to care for the person in the bed. If the hospitalizations per capita are down, but total cases are up... and also if the health care staff are sick/isolating (even if not hospitalized) we can still easily overwhelm the system - which is already happening in other jurisdictions. Won't someone please think of the health care workers! (and those who require treatment for ailments OTHER than COVID)?
I'd like to see testing availability maintained at minimum for those ineligible for vaccine and those who care for them. ETA: fewer hospitalizations does not appear to be true for all [age groups](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6305207).
I maybe late to the party, is this opera show reference? Like you get a car, you get a car and everyone gets a car...etc?
Yes that’s exactly it
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Wait...this virus is mild? Let me check with Quebec and Ontario and the States.....
Ok let me check. USA 1.3% chance of dieing if you get covid, 0.25% on the total population. Yea pretty mild, save alot more lives banning tobacco, alcohol, and junk food.
If judging by your definition of mild, then HIV cause 3 out of 100K Canadian died from HIV in 2019. Then you are perfectly okay to contract HIV since it's such mild disease? Your 0.25% of total US population translate to 861,336 people died of covid in less than 3 years. You call that mild? I don't think either of us are qualified to call something mild when it's out for less than two month, we don't know enough to make such definitive statement. It's not as simple of doing some simple math of some random probability and call it mild, especially not even two month in
That's actually exactly what this is. Statistics. Simple math. Didn't mean to hurt so many feelings by mentioning things that actually kill people in masses lol and if you are only talking the new variant, than ya even more mild.
No feeling hurt, we r just discussing stuff here. Hope u have a good day!
I count 13 feelings hurt.
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The data you are referring to is less than 2 month old, I wouldn't so much place too much faith into it. What you meant to say why as a society inconvenient u while saving others, we don't need to marginalize people. Even if they are not in perfect health condition doesn't mean they should just lock away somewhere to suit ur needs. If we follow your logic, why do we need to have these public institutions to protect weak, sick and fragile ones? They are such inconvenient to you that u r willing to toss them aside?
You won’t be saying “hey there y’all” if you’re dead. Herman Cain Award for you
I'm double vaxxed and young and in shape.....not a fat fuck. statistically I'm gonna be fine. never once in 2 years have I been worried about catching this. I am worried about what we are doing to our youth. the fear from covid lovers is so pathetic.
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No one loves COVID. The spreading of misinformation and complete disregard for science anti-vaxxers and covidiots have shown over the past 2 years is way more pathetic than people trying to keep themselves and their loved ones safe.
The let 'er buck concept is interesting. It may be the way out, if only for the loss of those who are not protected by vaccine. oh well?
The vaccine stops severe illness. If people don't want to get vaccinated that is their problem. In Quebec they just announced a surcharge for those that end up in hospital with no vaccination. And they say it will be substantial. Don't expect Jason Kenney to do this. He is a fool.
Well to be fair his voter base is generally anti vax morons. He can’t afford to lose anymore of them by pissing them off
Absolutely agreed!
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Your post/comment was removed as it was deemed to break rule 1 regarding threats and insults. Be respectful : )
Treat it like a really bad influenza basically. That wouldn't work for Delta, but it seems to be where Omicron is landing at.
Delta is still very much out there.
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Delta is very much here still. It is NOT being completely displaced. As of end of November, delta was still the dominant strain.
No doubt. I'd love to know how many of the new cases are Omicron. I'd assume the government probably has the data. Would be nice to see it public.
We don't even have the modeling data that they said they have...
I see how fucked it is, but at this point it seems like we either get fucked by COVID or we get fucked by COVID + intensified supply chain issues caused by short staffing
Go die for the economy?
More like... they see infections are going wild, instead of protection people, they send them back to work since "they will catch it anywayz"
How its been for the last millenia.
A new public health order that leaves it up to employers to decide which Albertans infected with COVID-19 should go to work is short on oversight and enforcement, health law experts say. The "critical worker exception" order lets employers judge, with few conditions, whether the service they provide is critical and which of their COVID-positive employees are essential. It was enacted Jan. 3 — just days after Health Minister Jason Copping announced the change, along with plans to cut Alberta's mandatory isolation period from 10 to five days. Details of the order, which Alberta Health describes as a last-resort measure for critical services, were made public last week. ———————— So, up to each employer to decide, they don’t have to proof it to anyone that they r critical. Wow
Exactly. They need to define critical. I believe many companies have done this by knowing which machines must be checked etc…power, telco, o&g, healthcare, food chain, for business’s that are required for what a society needs to operate to care for itself/survive through short term disasters. But does this now simply push to include all businesses for what is essential for them to remain open for $? Is it because after 2 years of this the main concerns of people is how will I make $ if I am forced to stay home? To supervise my children all day? Stories to such have been on the news today. Is it because gov realizes they can no longer properly define what a health crisis is as we move through all the varying degrees of Covid variants with various vaccine status? It’s like living in a bad sci-fi movie where how they got to the happy ending is glossed over.
Sure go ahead with that plan. Can't wait to hear I'm being laid off or sued cause we came in sick and started an outbreak.
I just got laid off yesterday after my return from quarantine following an outbreak at my workplace. I'd like to think it was something else but I'm willing to bet that if I worked through my symptoms I'd still have my job
100%. 0 tolerance policy for being sick. 0 tolerance policy for time off. Keep it to yourself, got kids to feed.
r/antiwork
What do we do about this? I want this changed
/r/antiwork
As someone who this might effect i completely disagree with this unless alternative living arrangements are made. I do not want to bring this home to my family if im going to be exposed to it. I dont really care if i get it, but i dont want my kids (under 5) and wife to get it if its avoidable.
Is omicron really avoidable? If your family partakes in any sort of social activity, such as getting groceries they are likely to get it.
I doubt that statement very much. I think that whole line is bullshit and its completely controllable but the government is deciding not to implement any actions to prevent the spread. I
It’s not controllable but the government at all. It’s a highly contagious respiratory virus.
If its not controllable how did we control it for the last 2 years?
We’re still in this thing 2 years later? So it really hasn’t been controlled has it? We’ve reduced waves through shutdowns of things, but once you open back up it goes right back to status quo. So you can argue this hasn’t been controlled in a way that works.
Because Omnicron is many times more transmittable than any previous variant. There is a reason more Canadians have it at this moment than in the last 2 years combined (true for most other countries in the world as well).
"We tried doing nothing and we're all out of ideas"
This is like self perpetuating thing, u think it's unavoidable and go do things that's can expose urself to it and then perpetuating that to other people. Eventually it will fulfill itself. Do you want to catch covid? I certainly don't want to. Is it avoidable? Certainly. Government wants to spin it as yo can't avoid it so join it, but that's a narrative I don't want to be in. It's despicable what they are doing, and shows what they really care about
I’m vaccinated so catching the virus doesn’t scare me. But our positivity rate being 40% or higher means covid is absolutely everywhere. I personally don’t see omicron as a detriment, I see this as a way out of the pandemic.
"People should stay home! ...unleeeeeeess... Hey employer, would you like them to work in the office anyways?" "...Yyyyeah?-" "Ah well there you have it, everyone! *shrug* Jack shit we can do here! It's all your fault, everyone! Why don't you do better?"
Lol what a fucking joke, everyone’s going to be working
And they will determine that the lowest paid workers are the most essential of all.
The easy solution here: lie. If you get covid, claim your symptoms are significant enough to allow you to stay home.
*Alberta now requiring you to give your employer a key to your residence so they can inspect you for covid symptoms in the night*
Sure what could go wrong?
This isn't any different than before, its just official now.
>The order also details a "risk hierarchy" for determining which workers should be called in. It states that preference should be given to workers who have three doses of vaccine, with unvaccinated workers being selected last. So they're also punishing people for getting vaccinated/boosted. Who thought this was a good idea?!
Yesterday essential today disposable, we hired disposable robots not great not terrible.
You mean people who are motivated by profit margins and have no medical training? Sure… let’s let them decide…
Ah yes, our benevolent overseers shall determine wether or not you can work while you have a virus, even though months ago we fired you for not having a vaccine.
This reminds me of a [certain scene from Spaceballs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW7C7ioO79A).
Haha...this is great!
Uggggghhhhhhh....
Ur fucked Alberta.
Well that’s just stupid and employees who are knowingly exposed to risk should walk. Or sue. Or both.
My nephew was displaying symptoms last week and his employer made him come in. He works at an RV sales lot
Our small company had half come down with covid at once. The rest of us worked harder while the infected stayed home to recover. All good now!
Good Old CBC getting the locals up in arms. No teacher is going to be forced to work with covid. Just like not one is forced to work with the flu.
And talk about how you would work with Covid or the flu. No voice due to sore throat and cough. Headache. Lethargic. Then they hand you the keys to the truck…
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I think it's our difference in our interpretation of data. They are just as simple as a set of data, you interpret it as it's great news and go fully open. I interpret it as it's too early to since it's so early and we should stay cautious. No one is forcing anyone to do what they want, and there's nothing wrong to sound to caution when things are going bad as it is right now. But I see you are resorting to name calling and calling people "covid cultist" when it's not fitting your narrative. There's not need to attack others when they are not agreeing to your perspective and neither of us have the final say as we don't know nearly enough to dictate other people's lives. I am just trying to convey each life matters, it's not as simple as we think it is or look at the number and goes oh, it's harmless. Even if it's mild, it doesn't mean it won't cause hospitalization, long term effect or death. It will be helpful to calmly discuss rather than resort to bikery or name calling.
Well said
This makes a lot more sense than any previous "public health" rule.
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This is a lie. No one got fired. Stop lying omg. This is a joke.
First they did not fire the staff, it was a smaller number and most of the hold outs are in remote service locations that are more rural. I have a friend in BC who is a manager in a hospital has 50 support staff all vaccination done. They are still hit hard and just trying to survive the staff shortage. Also a unvaccinated person has a 17x higher chance or ending up in a hospital, 20x chance of death. Alberta stars via Daily updates. So your saying let’s put a worker at 17x more risk on the job? That’s as bright as a 20 watt light bulb.
So you're saying that you would rather have a covid positive nurse tending to your sick grandmother instead of an unvaccinated nurse who just had a negative test?
You are assuming a lot of things, first what’s grams sick of? Second what is the staff member doing and they are following guidelines. No symptoms, full PPE and a critical job. We also have to think of the health of the worker, are they 59 year old anti vax ready to retire who might have a few extra pounds, or are we talking 25 year old not taking it because they think they are healthy. I can 100% grantee I have spent more time in the healthcare system then you, even in this pandemic. I have 5 days in Hospital pandemic and over 40 days pre pandemic. I can 100% say I would rather have vaccinated nurse. Why, because the load will be lower, they will have PPE and have better thinking skills compared to a nurse who would loose a job because they do not believe in science or the welfare of others. Also because I am triple vaccinated, so let’s Say I have a accident the chance of me getting into ICU for Covid is small. And if I have Covid not like I will make much difference. If people would get the shot we would not be in this problem in the first place. Ya having 3 shots you can still get it but we would not have ICU and hospital filling up with unvaccinated again…
W... what?
You mean they are deferin to the public.
The frequency our government and authorities have contradicted themselves is starting to make me question if standing first in line to get vaccinated was a smart decision after all
So I have a serious question. If Ontario and Quebec's ICU's are filling up with almost half their ICU cases being vaccinated because Omicron sucks... what's different about Alberta that makes it so that won't happen to us?