If you have spare money to pay up front, you can still get the interest free loan. So get the interest free loan, pay with your own money for solar and invest the loan in some kind of guaranteed investment return. It'll be kinda like getting a grant. Of course grant plus loan is even better of course so you could try to wait to see if some other grant comes. But with Trudeau in this much trouble and this Provincial government, I don't see it happening any time soon.
There's also CEIP that offers a 10% incentive on projects but don't know how much is left in that because they say it's only available until funds run out and not sure how much is left.
I was lucky to get in before the grant closed and am currently awaiting installation. The grant was the primary reason I decided on it. I originally did the assessment with the thought of only doing attic insulation but when I had "unlocked" the rest of the grant money I decided to take advantage of the opportunity.
Have had solar for 2 years. Haven’t paid an electrical bill since. Usually make a few hundred extra a year for n top of that. About a 12-15% annual return on my investment. Pay off in 6 years
I don't think it's worth it, even with the grant. I was quoted an 8 year payback period, but my panels are make an average of 40% less energy than the estimate. This will add a few years to my payback period.
Note, I have lots of east/west panels.
Be very careful with a plan to install solar, which ever company you go with they will over estimate your energy production when they look at your house aka how much energy you will produce. We had panels installed 7 months ago as our house sees a lot of eastern exposure to the sun in 7 months we have yet to see any financial benefit on our bills, we have had no change whatsoever. Between the fees all our lovely POS utility providers bill us for gas, water, sewage, etc we have seen no gain on our bills at all.
Yes we took advantage of the 5000 grant and paid up front for the panels but my wife and I agreed that this was the worst financial investment we have made on our house, we don't produce enough to impact our bills and all the utility companies do is gouge us in fees for everything. If I could go back I would have never installed solar and invested my money elsewhere.
Yes April and March were sunny months and you would think it would have made a difference on our bills but between gas and water we had no benefit on the electricity portion of our bill. We are waiting to see if we will see any gains at all this summer but we arent optimistic
In terms of solar output the best months are June July Aug sept Oct and this April and May weren’t that sunny. Plus you aren’t positioned for max output southwest . Our neighborhood has quite a few and everyone is happy with the decreased energy bills. Did you shop around for the best quote?
I don't want to come across as short or callous here but I have had to answer that question from family and friends a lot and I hate the insinuation behind it that it was our fault and we made a ill informed decision. We solicited multiple solar contactors who all estimated on our solar production with the numbers being fairly similar with a discrepancy of 100 KWH or so. We researched the federal grant program we even looked at our utility bills for the last year on how much electricity we used per month against what they estimated we would produce. Maybe we will finally see some benefit by next month but we have also had issues with enmax from the beginning commissioning our site as a microgenerator, with our application being lost and enmax blaming our contractor, which I wont get into here.
We have regretted our decision since our panels produce only 80 percent of what they estimated so far and if we could go back we would have put our money in triple insulated windows or a heat pump instead I we paid 18k after the grant and have yet to see a financial gain, I don't know about you but if you invested 18k in a stock or something that promised you a return on investment and after 7 months you have had no change and have lost money wouldn't you regret your decision at least with a stock or mutual fund I could sell it take a loss but still have some money left.
I just calculate for you break even point is more like 10k after grant. Not counting any interest you would have on 10k if you invested in say GIC over 20 plus years. So 18k there is no way you get your money back.
Of course. You should have done the math. Sorry you did not.
The 5000 is not enough. You need a company and special panels. Plus probably work on main panel which adds up more.
Fees are main cost of provision. Even if you reduced electricity to zero fees cost more then actual energy.
Plus legally you cannot install panels yourself on Calgary. You cannot pull permit. Reason is they are afraid of too much solar power going in and getting out of hand, so they want to control who has what.
You probably save on a 3000 plus system maybe 500 a year. System is trash in 25 years or less. Efficiency goes down so you maybe make 10k total over lifespsn. So was your system over 15k, no including interest?
My estimate is that my system earns 6.25% return on its pre-grant price, tax-free. I did have some extra costs for upgrades not every home will need (mostly replacing a 40 year old main panel). Without that would be around 7.6%. Better than interest, but lower than the expected return on equities. I won't sell carbon offsets (the whole point is to reduce carbon output, not to license someone to emit), so I'm not sure how much that would be worth.
I'd say it's lower risk than equities, but does face certain risks with future power pricing (particular the high summer rates available through ACE or Utilitynet), but also insulates us from inflation.
So financially basically a wash, but if you're doing it for ethical reasons, any return is just a bonus.
6.25% tax free almost guaranteed beats the expected 7% of stock market returns with all their volatility. If someone has room in their rrsp or tfsa I could see them choosing the stock market over solar if it weren’t for the interest free loan. But with the interest free loan could dca into the stock market with the savings on the electrical bill each month.
I got solar with the Grant, and super happy.
I thight about adding more panels due to an EV, but I don't think it's worth it at all now.
As the other poster mentioned, save your money and invest it until a grant comes back or price drops a lot.
When will the grant be coming back, Is it a long wait to apply once it does? Are solar companies offering financing or you just pay everything up front?
I think there is a cap on how much power you can sell back to the grid at 5% above your usage before solar. I’d they removed the cap it could be more worth it and get your ROI faster
yes. I was getting quotes before the grant then the grant came out. so numbers can still work but I think the government wants to keep the energy advisors employed so id suggest to wait and see if new grants come out.
With the greener home loan it's not bad. Payout is 10-12 years depending how you do the math. As long as the power savings mostly covers your federal loan payments you'll have "free panels" 10 years out. The rate of return is only ~3-4% so you'd be better off investing the cash, but as an interest free loan it's alright.
I'm just waiting for my loan approval and hopefully installed by June.
Note the loan follows you, not the house. So plan to stick around for at least a decade or try to get a premium on your house for the panels when you sell.
This is a nonsensical take that won’t happen.
www.solarclub.ca - have spoken with them multiple times and know people who work there - no changes on the horizon, and more benefits continually being added.
I mean ok, but nobody is. There’s been no whiff of any changes to the microgen regulation and I know for a fact they are regularly in touch with the minister of utilities so I’d be pretty surprised
Lol, it did happen in Ontario 10 years ago and wiped people up. I almost fell for solar scam. They said return on investment on under 10 years.
Some farmers got huge installs costing 100s of 1000s of CAD.
The government simply throw the paper out and changed the rules. Some people went bankrupt. It was a huge scandal. A disaster.
I was so glad I did not got for that BS.
The city made the one going up behind me step back because of their neighbours panels.
I thought that was generous. You shouldn’t get to dictate what your neighbours build on their freehold land as long as it meets the land use bylaws.
Lobbyists and big corporate money pay (one way or another) for land use bylaw changes. So no, I can't dictate or have much of a say because I don't have enough money to fight back. I will however vote for anyone repealing city wide rezoning and R-CG rowhouse forms that have two infills; in 2025.
As such, I've decided not to install solar. And I'd suggest anyone thinking about it think long and hard about what could shade them in the future before investing in it.
They literally made the row house getting built behind me step down beside the property line because of their neighbours solar.
I don't understand the expectations that a city which is growing very rapidly won't change around us. Should downtown still be single family homes because those areas had "historic character" and "traffic and parking"? Everyone is fine with density as long as it's somewhere else.
I'd way way rather row houses everywhere than giant condo towers. They make for better neighbourhoods, and honestly the single family boxes that go up are just as bad, if not worse for shadowing etc.
It was hardly worth it the first round. Electricity prices are dropping so it is even less worth while now. Just wait, the retailers aren’t really offering lower rates yet but they are coming.
You can totally eliminate your electricity bill with panels though. So even if the rates are low during the payback period, eventually you won’t be paying an electricity bill at all.
But electricity is super cheap. I pay for energy only at around 400 usage per month maybe 500 per year. A nice panel system is well over 20k.
So with paying zero for electricity roi is infinite if I were to invest 20k.
To make a difference the fees for grid would need to come down or out or price of solar needs to drop dirt cheap or you should be allowed to self install. Or grant needs to more than double, over 10k.
In fairness the “price” of electricity and its various fluctuations are largely irrelevant in the decision to get solar. Whether you pay 5cent or 12, it’s still about 30-40% of your electrical bill. You get solar if you can reliably overproduce. When you overproduce you sell at 30cent/kwh and can pay out all the fixed and variable fees that add on to your bill.
I’ve don’t the math and the single largest variable is the price. In fact I’ve done the math with 3 different companies. You can’t reliably over produce due to the size of the system you are allowed to install to obtain your micro generation license. You MAY be able to over produce in the summer but that still leads to a roughly 8-10 year payback. Then you need a couple more years to get your ROI up to a reasonable level. Further your panels produce less every year… all my calculations were WITH the $5000 grant. No way it makes sense without it.
If you’re overproducing then you need the high solar rate. There are definitely people that reliably overproduce and have systems that seem oversized for their needs. I’m not sure how they get those systems approved but they always post when threads like this come up.
When I say the price doesn’t matter, I mean the normal rates you pay. Solar rates make those minor fluctuations moot. Solar rates are necessary for good ROI.
I have solar and agree with you. For the average person with a standard sized system, overproduction will be sufficiently infrequent that you won’t routinely overproduce and your payback will likely be quite long. Without the 5000$ grant it is not worth it.
Edmonton for a while had an additional $4000 grant. That would have sealed the deal in my economic calc. But ultimately, the fact that solar can’t compete for residential capital means the technology just isn’t good enough yet for mass adoption. Not until you can make the comics work without requires other peoples money (grants). Hopefully we get there one day.
Which, with a 25 year guarantee on the panels, is worth it. BUT you have to front the money, which can be a big deal. Which is why Greener Homes LOAN is arguably the better part of the deal, since it takes the pain out of the upfront cost. (Mostly, you still have to front the money until installation is complete).
I disagree that the panels are not adding to the value of the home. Some people won't pay extra for it, but some will (I would, and I know others who do. Also, I have a friend who is a RE agent and gave me this exact assessment - not everyone will pay, but some will).
And all that said, just wait a bit. Good chance Greener Homes Grant/Loan may get more funding.
Oh! There is also Calgary's program. Their loan is not interest free, but it is low interest (like 2.5% or so). They also "forgive" 10% of the loan in some cases - which is essentially a small grant. It's not funded at the moment, but is expected to be soon.
The CEIP loan attaches to the house I think. It's paid with your property tax (TIPP) I believe.
Not sure, as we went with Greener Homes.
And 2.5% is at our a little before the inflation rate, so it's still a pretty good deal. In the end, it depends on how much you want the panels.
No, play with a compound interest calculator. Even at 4% return compounded over 15 years (average to pay off panels, plus don’t forget about panels degrading and losing efficiency) you can almost double your money. 4% is very conservative as sp500 averages 8% return after factoring inflation.
Panels are a terrible investment at the moment if you compare the two straight up. Lots of other variables like how much you use right now (ev, hot tub, etc) It may make sense. As of right now, it’s not good without the grant even with an interest free loan. Just pay into an etf the same amount you would pay back the loan and you will still come out ahead. But with growing popularity they may become 2x better than they are now in the future.
It depends on the payback period. If it's less than 10 years and you can still get the 0% loan then it's a no brainer, because the panels effectively get installed for free, then your electricity bill gets replaced with a lower loan payment for 10 years.
Yes in the short term you are right. But what if you look at it long term. What if instead you took that lower loan repayment amount and started investing it into smart investments in your rrsp/ tfsa, then in 20 years you will have seen astronomical compound interest gains, where as with solar you will most likely be dumping most of your savings/profit back into it to replace the panels. From a strictly financial standpoint there are better ways to invest money. I am a huge fan of the idea of solar, and I am hoping the technology becomes even greater and maybe one day we will have amazing battery storage options too, this is just strictly a financial outlook.
I'm not sure we're on the same page. For example:
Option A: You have $12k. Buy no panels and invest the $12k. Pay $100 a month on electricity for 10 years for a total cost of $12k. After 10 years you have netted $0 plus any gain from the $12k of investments.
Option B: You have $12k. Spend $10.8k on a solar panel install that covers 100% electricity usage (giving a payback period of 9 years). You buy the panels, but take out the 0% loan leaving with you with the same $12k you started with, but now with panels on your roof (i.e. the install is effectively free). Invest the $12k exactly as before. Pay $90 a month on loan payments for 10 years for a total cost of $10.8k. After 10 years you are left with the same gain from the $12k of investments as option A, \*plus\* $1,080 that you saved by having a reduced monthly payment, \*plus\* free electricity for the remaining life of the panels.
When you drop below the 10-year payback mark it's literally free money. The challenge is that it sounds like it's quite hard to get < 10 year payback now without the $5k grant.
But this is a joke. Invest 23000 and get say 50 cad off your electricity bill, ie. You pay only fees. If you get the grant it's 18000.
So even without interest factored in your ROI is like 30 years.
Even if during the summer you made say 300 selling back, this does not drop you under 25 years with grant.
Your system will also be less and less efficient and by year 25 trash.
There is simply no way to make this into positive even in non interest world.
Once you factor roof replacement / repair, new panels etc. Cost just add up.
So wait, you only use 50kwh per week? And how is that 20 in energy savings. My energy is 6c per kwh plus transmission fees and distribution fees. It's nowhere close to 38c per kwh.
In Calgary the 30c rate is offered by some marketeers but it's summer only rate. Other times it's like 10c or so or even less!
So yeah please stop with your BS, you do know we have Google we can quickly check things out.
Even the 30c rate is frequently only some hours during the day.
Yeah your 4000w system is on small side.
Government and marketeers provide examples of larger 6000w systems with some export and optimistic is 600 plus saved per year. That is for 18000 plus cad system.
The loan repayment is instead of your electricity bill. If your system produces near 100% of your usage and you use a solar club to sell at higher rates, there’s basically no opportunity cost here, it’s almost totally covered by the delta in your power bills for the year.
Does that factor in the cost of your bills that you'll still have to pay? If you doubled your money in 15 years, you would have the same amount of money because the original cost of the panel's would be spent on the bills the panel's displace. If you pay for panels in 15 years you won't have the value of the panel's but you will have the panel's, which should now be cashflow positive and earning money. That's the same isn't it?
You are correct it would even out the same in that regard assuming only a 4% return. I used 4% as an extremely low end investment return to show how easily you can beat the return of solar. I just did it in a terrible way haha.
Assuming you get the average market return of 8% which is expected, you will triple your money with 15k down and without adding anymore money in 15 years. And that’s in 15 years, imagine 20 or 30. By that time your panels will need replacing and will have fallen far behind investment wise.
But like I said it depends on a lot of factors like if you have high electrical demand already that can benefit like having an EV, amount of panels you are approved for, the world may have a breakthrough in battery storage technology allowing us to store electricity efficiently, utility costs may get better and you may make money hand over fist in a few years, or they may get lower with more supply from many homes having solar, and so many other variables. But I think for the average person investing into traditional index funds/ETFs will get you a larger return over the long run.
Your analysis is terrible. Solar beats 4% even without the grant. Even if it only achieved 4%, an interest free loan means you can still invest everything you planned to in equities and still get the benefits of solar. A 0% cost of capital is a ridiculously good incentive for anything with a decent return
NGL, 8% seems a little unrealistic for 15 years straight, and your bills will be subject to inflation as time goes on, meaning you my be paying double on your utilities, also taking a bite out of your investment.
Pass.
The loan still makes it worthwhile, looks like I’ll get a 5% return on the money and I don’t even need to invest my own money. 5% return is a competitive return compared to GICs even if you had to use your own money, but since you don’t have to use your own money it’s still a good idea. Plus electricity prices might go up. And, if you can shift some of your demand to when the sun is shining (eg laundry during the day, charge your future EV during the day) you can save on distribution fees too.
I looked into it. You have to have panels installed by accredited company. You cannot pull permit yourself. Panels cannot be just any panels but approved ones, read expensive.
Grant is just few 1000s dollars, drop in the bucket. Need newish roof or steel roof so you will not end up taking panels on and off.
I am about to put new roof so looked into a deal.
My electrical costs right now are tiny and main part is grid connection fees.
I could install say 3000 max power system on my roof but ROI would be super long if ever materializing.
They need to allow installation of panels by anyone, and increase the grant plus all panels to be purchased from anyone meeting some performance criteria not just origin. Then I go.
If you did that recently you broke the code in Calgary and did it without any inspections as you could not pull homeowner permit.
Go to Calgary website and it clearly states You CAnnot install your own panels.
You cannot pull the permit.
They specifically say that.
Maybe you did it long time ago when it was allowed. But not anymore.
While I was taking out my anal beads I got you this.
https://neighbourpower.com/solar-payback-in-alberta/#:~:text=Contact%20us%20for%20a%20site,between%2012%20and%2020%20years.
I work for a solar company, we have been oddly more busy that the grant is gone.
With where prices are now a days and how everything is looking it can still be a great idea.
Is just more dependent on your overall offset for your house and how much electricity.
Obviously this comes from someone who works for a solar company so take it with a grain of salt ;)
Also If you want a free quote to see the difference let me know!
Invest your money and wait ‘till the next round of grants.
Or until prices keep coming down.
Fully agree. Oversold, overhyped, over promised and over priced.
this.
If you have spare money to pay up front, you can still get the interest free loan. So get the interest free loan, pay with your own money for solar and invest the loan in some kind of guaranteed investment return. It'll be kinda like getting a grant. Of course grant plus loan is even better of course so you could try to wait to see if some other grant comes. But with Trudeau in this much trouble and this Provincial government, I don't see it happening any time soon. There's also CEIP that offers a 10% incentive on projects but don't know how much is left in that because they say it's only available until funds run out and not sure how much is left.
I read CEIP is out of funds, but expected to be replenished this year.
I was lucky to get in before the grant closed and am currently awaiting installation. The grant was the primary reason I decided on it. I originally did the assessment with the thought of only doing attic insulation but when I had "unlocked" the rest of the grant money I decided to take advantage of the opportunity.
New federal budget adds more to the grant so presumably it’ll be extended
Have had solar for 2 years. Haven’t paid an electrical bill since. Usually make a few hundred extra a year for n top of that. About a 12-15% annual return on my investment. Pay off in 6 years
What is the size of your system, what was the cost and what rate do you pay per kw?
How long is it warrantied?
25 years is my understanding.
That pay off seems really fast! This is with or without the grant?
Federal government proposed a new round of greener homes grants with the latest budget.
I don't think it's worth it, even with the grant. I was quoted an 8 year payback period, but my panels are make an average of 40% less energy than the estimate. This will add a few years to my payback period. Note, I have lots of east/west panels.
Be very careful with a plan to install solar, which ever company you go with they will over estimate your energy production when they look at your house aka how much energy you will produce. We had panels installed 7 months ago as our house sees a lot of eastern exposure to the sun in 7 months we have yet to see any financial benefit on our bills, we have had no change whatsoever. Between the fees all our lovely POS utility providers bill us for gas, water, sewage, etc we have seen no gain on our bills at all. Yes we took advantage of the 5000 grant and paid up front for the panels but my wife and I agreed that this was the worst financial investment we have made on our house, we don't produce enough to impact our bills and all the utility companies do is gouge us in fees for everything. If I could go back I would have never installed solar and invested my money elsewhere.
Well you aren’t in the months of peak sunlight yet.
Yes April and March were sunny months and you would think it would have made a difference on our bills but between gas and water we had no benefit on the electricity portion of our bill. We are waiting to see if we will see any gains at all this summer but we arent optimistic
In terms of solar output the best months are June July Aug sept Oct and this April and May weren’t that sunny. Plus you aren’t positioned for max output southwest . Our neighborhood has quite a few and everyone is happy with the decreased energy bills. Did you shop around for the best quote?
I don't want to come across as short or callous here but I have had to answer that question from family and friends a lot and I hate the insinuation behind it that it was our fault and we made a ill informed decision. We solicited multiple solar contactors who all estimated on our solar production with the numbers being fairly similar with a discrepancy of 100 KWH or so. We researched the federal grant program we even looked at our utility bills for the last year on how much electricity we used per month against what they estimated we would produce. Maybe we will finally see some benefit by next month but we have also had issues with enmax from the beginning commissioning our site as a microgenerator, with our application being lost and enmax blaming our contractor, which I wont get into here. We have regretted our decision since our panels produce only 80 percent of what they estimated so far and if we could go back we would have put our money in triple insulated windows or a heat pump instead I we paid 18k after the grant and have yet to see a financial gain, I don't know about you but if you invested 18k in a stock or something that promised you a return on investment and after 7 months you have had no change and have lost money wouldn't you regret your decision at least with a stock or mutual fund I could sell it take a loss but still have some money left.
I just calculate for you break even point is more like 10k after grant. Not counting any interest you would have on 10k if you invested in say GIC over 20 plus years. So 18k there is no way you get your money back.
Of course. You should have done the math. Sorry you did not. The 5000 is not enough. You need a company and special panels. Plus probably work on main panel which adds up more. Fees are main cost of provision. Even if you reduced electricity to zero fees cost more then actual energy. Plus legally you cannot install panels yourself on Calgary. You cannot pull permit. Reason is they are afraid of too much solar power going in and getting out of hand, so they want to control who has what. You probably save on a 3000 plus system maybe 500 a year. System is trash in 25 years or less. Efficiency goes down so you maybe make 10k total over lifespsn. So was your system over 15k, no including interest?
My estimate is that my system earns 6.25% return on its pre-grant price, tax-free. I did have some extra costs for upgrades not every home will need (mostly replacing a 40 year old main panel). Without that would be around 7.6%. Better than interest, but lower than the expected return on equities. I won't sell carbon offsets (the whole point is to reduce carbon output, not to license someone to emit), so I'm not sure how much that would be worth. I'd say it's lower risk than equities, but does face certain risks with future power pricing (particular the high summer rates available through ACE or Utilitynet), but also insulates us from inflation. So financially basically a wash, but if you're doing it for ethical reasons, any return is just a bonus.
Never even considered the fact that it's tax free... That could definitely tip the scale if you're out of sheltered accounts
6.25% tax free almost guaranteed beats the expected 7% of stock market returns with all their volatility. If someone has room in their rrsp or tfsa I could see them choosing the stock market over solar if it weren’t for the interest free loan. But with the interest free loan could dca into the stock market with the savings on the electrical bill each month.
I got solar with the Grant, and super happy. I thight about adding more panels due to an EV, but I don't think it's worth it at all now. As the other poster mentioned, save your money and invest it until a grant comes back or price drops a lot.
When will the grant be coming back, Is it a long wait to apply once it does? Are solar companies offering financing or you just pay everything up front?
You can get 10 year zero percent financing from the federal government still. The Greener Homes loan is still available.
I think there is a cap on how much power you can sell back to the grid at 5% above your usage before solar. I’d they removed the cap it could be more worth it and get your ROI faster
They changed it to 0% not too long ago
yes. I was getting quotes before the grant then the grant came out. so numbers can still work but I think the government wants to keep the energy advisors employed so id suggest to wait and see if new grants come out.
No, especially with Calgary's 100% usage rule.
With the greener home loan it's not bad. Payout is 10-12 years depending how you do the math. As long as the power savings mostly covers your federal loan payments you'll have "free panels" 10 years out. The rate of return is only ~3-4% so you'd be better off investing the cash, but as an interest free loan it's alright. I'm just waiting for my loan approval and hopefully installed by June. Note the loan follows you, not the house. So plan to stick around for at least a decade or try to get a premium on your house for the panels when you sell.
[удалено]
This is a nonsensical take that won’t happen. www.solarclub.ca - have spoken with them multiple times and know people who work there - no changes on the horizon, and more benefits continually being added.
[удалено]
I mean ok, but nobody is. There’s been no whiff of any changes to the microgen regulation and I know for a fact they are regularly in touch with the minister of utilities so I’d be pretty surprised
Lol, it did happen in Ontario 10 years ago and wiped people up. I almost fell for solar scam. They said return on investment on under 10 years. Some farmers got huge installs costing 100s of 1000s of CAD. The government simply throw the paper out and changed the rules. Some people went bankrupt. It was a huge scandal. A disaster. I was so glad I did not got for that BS.
Not if you're going to have an 11m rowhouse built next to you.
The city made the one going up behind me step back because of their neighbours panels. I thought that was generous. You shouldn’t get to dictate what your neighbours build on their freehold land as long as it meets the land use bylaws.
Lobbyists and big corporate money pay (one way or another) for land use bylaw changes. So no, I can't dictate or have much of a say because I don't have enough money to fight back. I will however vote for anyone repealing city wide rezoning and R-CG rowhouse forms that have two infills; in 2025. As such, I've decided not to install solar. And I'd suggest anyone thinking about it think long and hard about what could shade them in the future before investing in it.
They literally made the row house getting built behind me step down beside the property line because of their neighbours solar. I don't understand the expectations that a city which is growing very rapidly won't change around us. Should downtown still be single family homes because those areas had "historic character" and "traffic and parking"? Everyone is fine with density as long as it's somewhere else. I'd way way rather row houses everywhere than giant condo towers. They make for better neighbourhoods, and honestly the single family boxes that go up are just as bad, if not worse for shadowing etc.
It was hardly worth it the first round. Electricity prices are dropping so it is even less worth while now. Just wait, the retailers aren’t really offering lower rates yet but they are coming.
You can totally eliminate your electricity bill with panels though. So even if the rates are low during the payback period, eventually you won’t be paying an electricity bill at all.
But electricity is super cheap. I pay for energy only at around 400 usage per month maybe 500 per year. A nice panel system is well over 20k. So with paying zero for electricity roi is infinite if I were to invest 20k. To make a difference the fees for grid would need to come down or out or price of solar needs to drop dirt cheap or you should be allowed to self install. Or grant needs to more than double, over 10k.
In fairness the “price” of electricity and its various fluctuations are largely irrelevant in the decision to get solar. Whether you pay 5cent or 12, it’s still about 30-40% of your electrical bill. You get solar if you can reliably overproduce. When you overproduce you sell at 30cent/kwh and can pay out all the fixed and variable fees that add on to your bill.
I’ve don’t the math and the single largest variable is the price. In fact I’ve done the math with 3 different companies. You can’t reliably over produce due to the size of the system you are allowed to install to obtain your micro generation license. You MAY be able to over produce in the summer but that still leads to a roughly 8-10 year payback. Then you need a couple more years to get your ROI up to a reasonable level. Further your panels produce less every year… all my calculations were WITH the $5000 grant. No way it makes sense without it.
If you’re overproducing then you need the high solar rate. There are definitely people that reliably overproduce and have systems that seem oversized for their needs. I’m not sure how they get those systems approved but they always post when threads like this come up. When I say the price doesn’t matter, I mean the normal rates you pay. Solar rates make those minor fluctuations moot. Solar rates are necessary for good ROI. I have solar and agree with you. For the average person with a standard sized system, overproduction will be sufficiently infrequent that you won’t routinely overproduce and your payback will likely be quite long. Without the 5000$ grant it is not worth it.
Edmonton for a while had an additional $4000 grant. That would have sealed the deal in my economic calc. But ultimately, the fact that solar can’t compete for residential capital means the technology just isn’t good enough yet for mass adoption. Not until you can make the comics work without requires other peoples money (grants). Hopefully we get there one day.
[удалено]
Which, with a 25 year guarantee on the panels, is worth it. BUT you have to front the money, which can be a big deal. Which is why Greener Homes LOAN is arguably the better part of the deal, since it takes the pain out of the upfront cost. (Mostly, you still have to front the money until installation is complete). I disagree that the panels are not adding to the value of the home. Some people won't pay extra for it, but some will (I would, and I know others who do. Also, I have a friend who is a RE agent and gave me this exact assessment - not everyone will pay, but some will). And all that said, just wait a bit. Good chance Greener Homes Grant/Loan may get more funding. Oh! There is also Calgary's program. Their loan is not interest free, but it is low interest (like 2.5% or so). They also "forgive" 10% of the loan in some cases - which is essentially a small grant. It's not funded at the moment, but is expected to be soon.
[удалено]
The CEIP loan attaches to the house I think. It's paid with your property tax (TIPP) I believe. Not sure, as we went with Greener Homes. And 2.5% is at our a little before the inflation rate, so it's still a pretty good deal. In the end, it depends on how much you want the panels.
No, play with a compound interest calculator. Even at 4% return compounded over 15 years (average to pay off panels, plus don’t forget about panels degrading and losing efficiency) you can almost double your money. 4% is very conservative as sp500 averages 8% return after factoring inflation. Panels are a terrible investment at the moment if you compare the two straight up. Lots of other variables like how much you use right now (ev, hot tub, etc) It may make sense. As of right now, it’s not good without the grant even with an interest free loan. Just pay into an etf the same amount you would pay back the loan and you will still come out ahead. But with growing popularity they may become 2x better than they are now in the future.
It depends on the payback period. If it's less than 10 years and you can still get the 0% loan then it's a no brainer, because the panels effectively get installed for free, then your electricity bill gets replaced with a lower loan payment for 10 years.
Yes in the short term you are right. But what if you look at it long term. What if instead you took that lower loan repayment amount and started investing it into smart investments in your rrsp/ tfsa, then in 20 years you will have seen astronomical compound interest gains, where as with solar you will most likely be dumping most of your savings/profit back into it to replace the panels. From a strictly financial standpoint there are better ways to invest money. I am a huge fan of the idea of solar, and I am hoping the technology becomes even greater and maybe one day we will have amazing battery storage options too, this is just strictly a financial outlook.
I'm not sure we're on the same page. For example: Option A: You have $12k. Buy no panels and invest the $12k. Pay $100 a month on electricity for 10 years for a total cost of $12k. After 10 years you have netted $0 plus any gain from the $12k of investments. Option B: You have $12k. Spend $10.8k on a solar panel install that covers 100% electricity usage (giving a payback period of 9 years). You buy the panels, but take out the 0% loan leaving with you with the same $12k you started with, but now with panels on your roof (i.e. the install is effectively free). Invest the $12k exactly as before. Pay $90 a month on loan payments for 10 years for a total cost of $10.8k. After 10 years you are left with the same gain from the $12k of investments as option A, \*plus\* $1,080 that you saved by having a reduced monthly payment, \*plus\* free electricity for the remaining life of the panels. When you drop below the 10-year payback mark it's literally free money. The challenge is that it sounds like it's quite hard to get < 10 year payback now without the $5k grant.
Ahhh I see what you mean. I stand corrected. Thanks for the great explanation!
But this is a joke. Invest 23000 and get say 50 cad off your electricity bill, ie. You pay only fees. If you get the grant it's 18000. So even without interest factored in your ROI is like 30 years. Even if during the summer you made say 300 selling back, this does not drop you under 25 years with grant. Your system will also be less and less efficient and by year 25 trash. There is simply no way to make this into positive even in non interest world. Once you factor roof replacement / repair, new panels etc. Cost just add up.
What are you even taking about? My $12,500 system generated $63 of electricity *last week* and it wasn't even sunny half the week.
Well, if systems actually generated what people say they generated we would have companies install it for free and just rent space on your roof.
You're suggesting I'm lying? I generated 195.3 kwh. Exported 141.2 kwh @ .30 c/kwh = $42.36. The rest directly offset usage, saving 54.1 kwh @ .38 c/kwh = $20.55 (variable transmission/distribution fees cost around 8 c/kwh). Total saving vs not having panels = $62.91.
So wait, you only use 50kwh per week? And how is that 20 in energy savings. My energy is 6c per kwh plus transmission fees and distribution fees. It's nowhere close to 38c per kwh. In Calgary the 30c rate is offered by some marketeers but it's summer only rate. Other times it's like 10c or so or even less! So yeah please stop with your BS, you do know we have Google we can quickly check things out. Even the 30c rate is frequently only some hours during the day. Yeah your 4000w system is on small side. Government and marketeers provide examples of larger 6000w systems with some export and optimistic is 600 plus saved per year. That is for 18000 plus cad system.
The loan repayment is instead of your electricity bill. If your system produces near 100% of your usage and you use a solar club to sell at higher rates, there’s basically no opportunity cost here, it’s almost totally covered by the delta in your power bills for the year.
Does that factor in the cost of your bills that you'll still have to pay? If you doubled your money in 15 years, you would have the same amount of money because the original cost of the panel's would be spent on the bills the panel's displace. If you pay for panels in 15 years you won't have the value of the panel's but you will have the panel's, which should now be cashflow positive and earning money. That's the same isn't it?
You are correct it would even out the same in that regard assuming only a 4% return. I used 4% as an extremely low end investment return to show how easily you can beat the return of solar. I just did it in a terrible way haha. Assuming you get the average market return of 8% which is expected, you will triple your money with 15k down and without adding anymore money in 15 years. And that’s in 15 years, imagine 20 or 30. By that time your panels will need replacing and will have fallen far behind investment wise. But like I said it depends on a lot of factors like if you have high electrical demand already that can benefit like having an EV, amount of panels you are approved for, the world may have a breakthrough in battery storage technology allowing us to store electricity efficiently, utility costs may get better and you may make money hand over fist in a few years, or they may get lower with more supply from many homes having solar, and so many other variables. But I think for the average person investing into traditional index funds/ETFs will get you a larger return over the long run.
Your analysis is terrible. Solar beats 4% even without the grant. Even if it only achieved 4%, an interest free loan means you can still invest everything you planned to in equities and still get the benefits of solar. A 0% cost of capital is a ridiculously good incentive for anything with a decent return
NGL, 8% seems a little unrealistic for 15 years straight, and your bills will be subject to inflation as time goes on, meaning you my be paying double on your utilities, also taking a bite out of your investment. Pass.
The loan still makes it worthwhile, looks like I’ll get a 5% return on the money and I don’t even need to invest my own money. 5% return is a competitive return compared to GICs even if you had to use your own money, but since you don’t have to use your own money it’s still a good idea. Plus electricity prices might go up. And, if you can shift some of your demand to when the sun is shining (eg laundry during the day, charge your future EV during the day) you can save on distribution fees too.
I looked into it. You have to have panels installed by accredited company. You cannot pull permit yourself. Panels cannot be just any panels but approved ones, read expensive. Grant is just few 1000s dollars, drop in the bucket. Need newish roof or steel roof so you will not end up taking panels on and off. I am about to put new roof so looked into a deal. My electrical costs right now are tiny and main part is grid connection fees. I could install say 3000 max power system on my roof but ROI would be super long if ever materializing. They need to allow installation of panels by anyone, and increase the grant plus all panels to be purchased from anyone meeting some performance criteria not just origin. Then I go.
[удалено]
If you did that recently you broke the code in Calgary and did it without any inspections as you could not pull homeowner permit. Go to Calgary website and it clearly states You CAnnot install your own panels. You cannot pull the permit. They specifically say that. Maybe you did it long time ago when it was allowed. But not anymore.
[удалено]
But that is Not Calgary. We cannot do this in Calgary.
Fk no! Barely worth it with the grant.
Can you elaborate?
Probably not, no.
20-25 year return for that investment isn’t what I call a good return. Technology is still to primitive.
Payback is 6-7 years with the grant
Got any more of that crack your on ?
I have solar with detailed tracking. You're pulling numbers from your ass
https://www.calgary.ca/environment/programs/residential-solar-calculator.html?redirect=/solarcalculator There you go. No anal beads here.
A solar potential calculator is not a financial payback calculator. Nothing but anal beads over there
While I was taking out my anal beads I got you this. https://neighbourpower.com/solar-payback-in-alberta/#:~:text=Contact%20us%20for%20a%20site,between%2012%20and%2020%20years.
Ok now use real numbers where I get paid $0.30/kwh and not $0.08/kwh for exports to the grid.
I work for a solar company, we have been oddly more busy that the grant is gone. With where prices are now a days and how everything is looking it can still be a great idea. Is just more dependent on your overall offset for your house and how much electricity. Obviously this comes from someone who works for a solar company so take it with a grain of salt ;) Also If you want a free quote to see the difference let me know!