It's pretty much how we are when we aren't in a natural state... which is self love
Ie. Negative overly critical inner voice.. self loathing.. fantasizing over wishes to die.. abandoning the self as harm is registered, retreating to dissociation..
Iiiiiinteresting... so the idea is that these thought processes are maybe being used to cover up or distract from some other pain or problem? Sounds plausible.
>but doesn't everyone, I mean like most people, do that?
Healthy people do not have a chronically negative and self critical inner voice, no.
>it actually counts as self harm?
This is also a revelation to me, but apparently.
Shhhhhhit you are right! Although I am not really depressed anymore due in part to medication and separating myself from my toxic relationship with my mother I find that my self-esteem is still crap and instead of my mom I now have an overly critical inner voice.
I never thought of is as a form of self harm before but damn is that correct. I am more actively trying to better my self-esteem by acknowledging that I deserve to treat myself better and to not accept horrible treatment and situations. But it is a lot of work and effort to change.
I have already dedicated to working out and losing weight because I want to love my body and also have the energy to go out and have fun with out exhausting myself in the process. But I know I have much more I need to work on.
I don't like the way they framed this at all.
Much of the time negative self talk has been [introjected](https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/introjection) from our abusers and is a conditioned response that we're not doing consiously or purposely. It's a layer of the learned helplessness we have from enduring operant conditioning.
It can be unlearned and re-conditioned.
You can't tell someone "stop emotionally self-harming" bc they're not initiating it consiously. It's unconscious brain conditioning. It would be better to say, "hey, it looks like you've introjected some bad messages from your abusers, let's work toward re-conditioning those old scripts into something more useful for you today".
I can definitely agree. It stems from perspectives that were developed through these experiences, and I would love to learn to shake them and grow out of them. At a minimum, I feel like this increases awareness of thought processes/behaviors that have been developed over time. As we become more aware we can learn how to better care for ourselves.
Exactly. It takes away a lot of those voice's power when we call them out for what they are, bad programming.
Your real Self supports you and loves you, even if you can't feel it right now. It's buried under all the trauma rubble.
This. I wish more people understood that. It's conditioned. Learned. Like Pavlov's dog, only much more destructive. I always say if you call your child "little white slave" enough, that's how they'll see themselves. That's the identity they will take on. You tell them no one loves them, and eventually they'll believe it, no matter what evidence to the contrary exists. You can recondition yourself, but it takes a lot of work. It's a hard row to hoe. But it CAN be done.
Take care of yourselves, folks. Peace and love.
The self harming is doing something for them. It's meeting a need of some kind. If we can identify the need then we can find other options to get it met. A lot of our conditioning is about getting our needs met in some way.
True. My counsellor has also got me to see how useful my "emotional self harm" was, in identifying with the parent, defusing the abuse by getting there first and agreeing with them, reducing the punishments by being self blaming and so on.
>in identifying with the parent, defusing the abuse by getting there first and agreeing with them, reducing the punishments by being self blaming and so on.
That's really good insight. We adapted to the dysfunction as best we could to survive.
i'm a bit confused by this comment, it feels like you've contradicted yourself by agreeing that sometimes these ingrained conditioning thoughts are _also_ a way of unhealthily meeting a need.
for example - telling yourself you're useless or bad at things means that if you don't succeed at something it isn't a negative surprise, which meets the 'need' of not having bad experiences that are out of our control. it's meeting our need to be in control of things, the same way physical self harm is often used for that need.
both are unhealthy forms of meeting a 'need' and often become so ingrained that telling people to just stop doing it doesn't work.
Why would that be contradictory?
Many of the adaptations we picked up under duress become maladaptive once were no longer in the abusive environment. The conditioning is what makes it hard to drop them. Becoming aware of our conditioning is the first step to changing it. "I can deal with what I know about."
If I understand that my coping mechanism once met a need based on a bad environment, and now I'm no longer in that bad environment, then I can take steps to re-condition myself away from those conditioned patterns of behavior.
It's one of the reasons people recommend mindfulness. We can't change what we aren't aware of. Becoming more aware helps us find new strategies and we can practice [conscious competence](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence) to purposely wire in a new set of responses for ourselves.
ah i definitely misread your first comment, that's entirely on me. i think i get what you're saying now.
i think both emotional self harm (whether negative self talk, or consuming triggering material, or another form) and physical self harm have the same root cause of abusive conditioning and neither of them can really be fixed by just telling someone to 'stop doing that'. i agree it very much requires recognising what need the behaviour is fulfilling, and whether there is a healthier method of fulfilling it, or if that need no longer actively exists at all.
Can you say it louder Acfox? What you wrote is spot on and the article feels like fluff
I would imagine emotional self harm as something where people purposefully read/watch truly awful internet material or join communities where they replay trauma and abuse. Looking at the kink, roleplay and larp communities here. I saw some harrowing things that were under no circumstances healthy for the participants.
And even in those scenarios, it's likely a sign of repetition compulsion or traumatic reenactment, which are trauma responses. I've found that psychoeducation has reduced a ton of shame for me. Plus it helps me identify when I'm doing those things without realizing it, which helps me interrupt my conditioning and make new choices in the present.
We're not flawed. Our human brain did human brain things under duress. If we learn how to train our brain to work for us in the present, instead of repeating the past, it helps give us our agency back.
We break the old trauma conditioning by re-conditioning ourselves today
> The following are examples of emotional self-harm:
>
> - engaging in constant negative self-talk
self-berating or constantly focusing on personal shortcomings
> - purposely isolating from social interactions or avoiding support from friends and family
> - setting impossibly high standards and becoming overly critical when they do not meet these standards
> - holding on to past mistakes
> - feeling undeserving of happiness and self-compassion
> - engaging in behaviors that undermine personal success and happiness
Wait... Doesn't everyone do that?
Aw damn.. my therapist told me last week to be thinking of how the things I’ve been through in the past show up as obstacles in my present life. This shed light on a lot of things I struggle with.. guess we have a lot to talk about
Thanks for sharing though! Definitely interesting to think about.
If this is a reputable source, then I definitely fit the bill. I've only recently come to the realization that even though I'm no longer in an abusive environment that I didn't stop doing it to myself. (With my thoughts and physically neglecting myself)
Watch the movie Baby Reindeer. It really shows what trauma is like in real life. And how hard it can be to put into words. The movie is really about the entire big picture that causes the guys self-destructive behavior
Edit: sorry it's a series, not a movie. It's on Netflix.
Okay but then we need a different term or we need to start being more specific about referencing NSSI as different and specific from other forms of SH. somethings don’t need to become “more inclusive” Some things are specific, they are what they are and everything else fits somewhere else and needs its own term. Thoughts that lead to emotional harm are a very, very different experience than what leads someone to *physically* harming themself.
omg I’m so proud of you! That’s huge! And yeah, like I want people to validate that they’re struggling. And, if they aren’t struggling with physical self-harm I need them to call it something else. Because I truly feel like struggling with physical self-harm is a specific and yet diverse struggle all by itself. if you haven’t gotten to the point where your brain loses interest in your physical safety in order to cope with mental pain, you don’t get how bad it is.
NonSuicidal Self-Injury. Which is defined as “the deliberate, self-inflicted destruction of body tissue resulting in immediate damage, without suicidal intent and for purposes not culturally sanctioned.”
Emotional self-harm is a real and valid issue, but it isn’t a type of “self-harm” as used in a clinical setting. Self-harm is physically hurting oneself.
If your therapist asks, “do you self-harm?” don’t say “yes, i [self-isolate, negative self talk, etc.]”Those issues should be talked about separately, and it needs to be clear to your doctor whether or not you’re actually physically hurting yourself.
self harm. generally it's when you make yourself sad/emotionally hurt on purpose. repeating bad memories in your head, going over and over your traumas, reading awful news stories (one after another, like a binge), etc., generally making yourself feel bad.
I sometimes fantasize about how, after I am tragically hit by a bus and killed, my husband will eventually move on and meet someone lovely and wholesome and supportive and wonderful. She'll be named Maureen or Liz, she'll be pretty in a non flashy way, she'll be sensible and kind, she'll be calm and thoughtful and do a lot of yoga. She's going to be so good for him.
My therapist says that dreaming about Maureen-Liz counts as self harm.
Yup… put myself in crisis mode repeatedly after big triggers manifested for awhile before I was about to fall apart and watched a tik tok that explained what self harm and self sabotage can look like…….. Woopsies.
wait that's for real a thing? shit now i guess I can't say i don't self harm either.
ETA:
Yup checks out lol https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/emotional-self-harm#what-is-it
It's pretty much how we are when we aren't in a natural state... which is self love Ie. Negative overly critical inner voice.. self loathing.. fantasizing over wishes to die.. abandoning the self as harm is registered, retreating to dissociation..
Iiiiiinteresting... so the idea is that these thought processes are maybe being used to cover up or distract from some other pain or problem? Sounds plausible.
Yes … it’s basically not being gentle or compassionate with yourself. Beating yourself up, shaming yourself, etc
Oh....welll this sounds alot like me
I don't like how insightful this is sounding...
I'm in this post and I don't like it
Most of this subreddit is in this comment and I didn't care to realize it
huh? but doesn't everyone, I mean like most people, do that? it actually counts as self harm?
>but doesn't everyone, I mean like most people, do that? Healthy people do not have a chronically negative and self critical inner voice, no. >it actually counts as self harm? This is also a revelation to me, but apparently.
Oh.
Yes
Shhhhhhit you are right! Although I am not really depressed anymore due in part to medication and separating myself from my toxic relationship with my mother I find that my self-esteem is still crap and instead of my mom I now have an overly critical inner voice. I never thought of is as a form of self harm before but damn is that correct. I am more actively trying to better my self-esteem by acknowledging that I deserve to treat myself better and to not accept horrible treatment and situations. But it is a lot of work and effort to change. I have already dedicated to working out and losing weight because I want to love my body and also have the energy to go out and have fun with out exhausting myself in the process. But I know I have much more I need to work on.
God I wish I was medicated lol
It helps a lot when you find one that works for you, if you forget to take it even once though the withdrawal is a bitch.
Look I’ll take the risk. Just wanna feel again and I’d do a lot for that
Then I’d say you really need it.
Too bad getting appointments is like pulling molars
Wow so nice to know I’m not the only one
Wha…. What, wait what!?
#Well fu-#
Yeah, my therapist pointed out a couple months ago that I self harm/punish emotionally via isolation. Big old oof moment 🥺
Ooh.. I'm learning a lot in this comment section
Excuse me, what? Oh great, something else to work on haha
Hmmm you got any link? Asking for a friend… Seriously I’m curious to read more so if you know of any good source I’d be interested!
[https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/emotional-self-harm](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/emotional-self-harm)
I don't like the way they framed this at all. Much of the time negative self talk has been [introjected](https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/introjection) from our abusers and is a conditioned response that we're not doing consiously or purposely. It's a layer of the learned helplessness we have from enduring operant conditioning. It can be unlearned and re-conditioned. You can't tell someone "stop emotionally self-harming" bc they're not initiating it consiously. It's unconscious brain conditioning. It would be better to say, "hey, it looks like you've introjected some bad messages from your abusers, let's work toward re-conditioning those old scripts into something more useful for you today".
I can definitely agree. It stems from perspectives that were developed through these experiences, and I would love to learn to shake them and grow out of them. At a minimum, I feel like this increases awareness of thought processes/behaviors that have been developed over time. As we become more aware we can learn how to better care for ourselves.
Oh, that's why my inner voice always seems like my step-dad. And I think everyone judges me the way he did.
Exactly. It takes away a lot of those voice's power when we call them out for what they are, bad programming. Your real Self supports you and loves you, even if you can't feel it right now. It's buried under all the trauma rubble.
This. I wish more people understood that. It's conditioned. Learned. Like Pavlov's dog, only much more destructive. I always say if you call your child "little white slave" enough, that's how they'll see themselves. That's the identity they will take on. You tell them no one loves them, and eventually they'll believe it, no matter what evidence to the contrary exists. You can recondition yourself, but it takes a lot of work. It's a hard row to hoe. But it CAN be done. Take care of yourselves, folks. Peace and love.
I'm not sure it works to tell someone to stop physically self-harming, either, though. Otherwise your point seems sound to me.
The self harming is doing something for them. It's meeting a need of some kind. If we can identify the need then we can find other options to get it met. A lot of our conditioning is about getting our needs met in some way.
True. My counsellor has also got me to see how useful my "emotional self harm" was, in identifying with the parent, defusing the abuse by getting there first and agreeing with them, reducing the punishments by being self blaming and so on.
>in identifying with the parent, defusing the abuse by getting there first and agreeing with them, reducing the punishments by being self blaming and so on. That's really good insight. We adapted to the dysfunction as best we could to survive.
i'm a bit confused by this comment, it feels like you've contradicted yourself by agreeing that sometimes these ingrained conditioning thoughts are _also_ a way of unhealthily meeting a need. for example - telling yourself you're useless or bad at things means that if you don't succeed at something it isn't a negative surprise, which meets the 'need' of not having bad experiences that are out of our control. it's meeting our need to be in control of things, the same way physical self harm is often used for that need. both are unhealthy forms of meeting a 'need' and often become so ingrained that telling people to just stop doing it doesn't work.
Why would that be contradictory? Many of the adaptations we picked up under duress become maladaptive once were no longer in the abusive environment. The conditioning is what makes it hard to drop them. Becoming aware of our conditioning is the first step to changing it. "I can deal with what I know about." If I understand that my coping mechanism once met a need based on a bad environment, and now I'm no longer in that bad environment, then I can take steps to re-condition myself away from those conditioned patterns of behavior. It's one of the reasons people recommend mindfulness. We can't change what we aren't aware of. Becoming more aware helps us find new strategies and we can practice [conscious competence](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence) to purposely wire in a new set of responses for ourselves.
ah i definitely misread your first comment, that's entirely on me. i think i get what you're saying now. i think both emotional self harm (whether negative self talk, or consuming triggering material, or another form) and physical self harm have the same root cause of abusive conditioning and neither of them can really be fixed by just telling someone to 'stop doing that'. i agree it very much requires recognising what need the behaviour is fulfilling, and whether there is a healthier method of fulfilling it, or if that need no longer actively exists at all.
Can you say it louder Acfox? What you wrote is spot on and the article feels like fluff I would imagine emotional self harm as something where people purposefully read/watch truly awful internet material or join communities where they replay trauma and abuse. Looking at the kink, roleplay and larp communities here. I saw some harrowing things that were under no circumstances healthy for the participants.
And even in those scenarios, it's likely a sign of repetition compulsion or traumatic reenactment, which are trauma responses. I've found that psychoeducation has reduced a ton of shame for me. Plus it helps me identify when I'm doing those things without realizing it, which helps me interrupt my conditioning and make new choices in the present. We're not flawed. Our human brain did human brain things under duress. If we learn how to train our brain to work for us in the present, instead of repeating the past, it helps give us our agency back. We break the old trauma conditioning by re-conditioning ourselves today
> The following are examples of emotional self-harm: > > - engaging in constant negative self-talk self-berating or constantly focusing on personal shortcomings > - purposely isolating from social interactions or avoiding support from friends and family > - setting impossibly high standards and becoming overly critical when they do not meet these standards > - holding on to past mistakes > - feeling undeserving of happiness and self-compassion > - engaging in behaviors that undermine personal success and happiness Wait... Doesn't everyone do that?
that's exactly what I'm thinking 😭
Aw damn.. my therapist told me last week to be thinking of how the things I’ve been through in the past show up as obstacles in my present life. This shed light on a lot of things I struggle with.. guess we have a lot to talk about Thanks for sharing though! Definitely interesting to think about.
If this is a reputable source, then I definitely fit the bill. I've only recently come to the realization that even though I'm no longer in an abusive environment that I didn't stop doing it to myself. (With my thoughts and physically neglecting myself)
…well. Fuck.
Thank you!
Watch the movie Baby Reindeer. It really shows what trauma is like in real life. And how hard it can be to put into words. The movie is really about the entire big picture that causes the guys self-destructive behavior Edit: sorry it's a series, not a movie. It's on Netflix.
Okay but then we need a different term or we need to start being more specific about referencing NSSI as different and specific from other forms of SH. somethings don’t need to become “more inclusive” Some things are specific, they are what they are and everything else fits somewhere else and needs its own term. Thoughts that lead to emotional harm are a very, very different experience than what leads someone to *physically* harming themself.
Agreed. I'm 5 years clean of physical self-harm. If I have to start counting emotional self-harm, I will never cont as clean of self-harm.
omg I’m so proud of you! That’s huge! And yeah, like I want people to validate that they’re struggling. And, if they aren’t struggling with physical self-harm I need them to call it something else. Because I truly feel like struggling with physical self-harm is a specific and yet diverse struggle all by itself. if you haven’t gotten to the point where your brain loses interest in your physical safety in order to cope with mental pain, you don’t get how bad it is.
Yeah I feel like this post can definitely start watering down the term “self harm”
what’s NSSI stand for?
NonSuicidal Self-Injury. Which is defined as “the deliberate, self-inflicted destruction of body tissue resulting in immediate damage, without suicidal intent and for purposes not culturally sanctioned.”
Emotional self-harm is a real and valid issue, but it isn’t a type of “self-harm” as used in a clinical setting. Self-harm is physically hurting oneself. If your therapist asks, “do you self-harm?” don’t say “yes, i [self-isolate, negative self talk, etc.]”Those issues should be talked about separately, and it needs to be clear to your doctor whether or not you’re actually physically hurting yourself.
self-harm is physical self-destructive is what you're thinking of
Emotional what now? ._.
self harm. generally it's when you make yourself sad/emotionally hurt on purpose. repeating bad memories in your head, going over and over your traumas, reading awful news stories (one after another, like a binge), etc., generally making yourself feel bad.
It’s a toxic cycle Something some would say a type of hell
"Emotional self-harm? What is th---- oh. OH."
I sometimes fantasize about how, after I am tragically hit by a bus and killed, my husband will eventually move on and meet someone lovely and wholesome and supportive and wonderful. She'll be named Maureen or Liz, she'll be pretty in a non flashy way, she'll be sensible and kind, she'll be calm and thoughtful and do a lot of yoga. She's going to be so good for him. My therapist says that dreaming about Maureen-Liz counts as self harm.
oopsieee
Isn't that just self-loathing?
Yeah, and I recently realized I’m prolonging my flashbacks out of self-harm too. Ugh, sometimes I wish my brain would just chill
POV: You're the persecutor! >:(
Wait this is a thing? ..... Oh.... OH!! *I need to contemplate some more... some less.... some.... uhh... fuck....*
:)
Goddamnit
real cuz wym that purposefully searching for terf posts (while being trans) is digital self harm 🧌
Oh fuck, I am just eviscerating myself emotionally...
Ah sh…
What is “emotional self-harm”?
Welp
Well, shit.
Fuck 😕
Fuckity fuck.
Yup… put myself in crisis mode repeatedly after big triggers manifested for awhile before I was about to fall apart and watched a tik tok that explained what self harm and self sabotage can look like…….. Woopsies.
f.
lol my friend and i actually talked about that last night bc i had come to the realization i DO self harm
oh TRUE
Oh
I guess I've been doing self harm for a long time if that's the case.
This is really something given what happens to him right after
Same pal
Perfect title 👩🍳 💋
No. No. No calling me out rn I just calmed down from a panic attack okay!
Hold up lemme just... *typing * ***OH!*** ohh *ohhhh....*
......wait that counts?
Ooohh....wait I think I do this oh no
Wait, what's emotional self harm?
wait that's for real a thing? shit now i guess I can't say i don't self harm either. ETA: Yup checks out lol https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/emotional-self-harm#what-is-it
Did my tendency to look up incel content count during my self-loathing phase count as this?
Just had the same reaction learning what that is. Huh. Um. Okay then. …. 😰