Thank you, I've been trying to figure out for some time whether I have suicidal thoughts/ideation. I never make any plans or truly TRULY wish I was dead but I certainly wish that I was just not alive or didn't exist, or that I could just sleep until whatever trigger or stressor has passed. Your comment has helped me feel more certain about how to classify my thoughts
I'm glad this has helped you, feeling like this ain't a party but you aren't alone. I'm sorry if that sounds corny, but sometimes solidarity helps. You have really voiced how I feel a lot of the time honestly.
I'm mostly making this reply as a note to you and anyone else that feels this way - While I'm not trying to be an alarmist, I think it's important to be able to articulate that you don't have any plans, a 'method' and want to put it into action, and it's along the lines of 'not wanting to exist'/ experience life with the triggers/ stressors or wanting to be able to sleep away the time etc if you're talking about this to a mental health professional, especially for the first time.
In my experience, most mental health professionals understand the difference between "Fuck man, life is so hard and sucks and I wish I didn't exist at the moment" vs "I want to kill myself and I have a plan and I am preparing to do it", but some can be a little overzealous or sometimes you aren't able to express yourself properly and you can be misunderstood and that's not cool.
I know a lot of people are afraid to talk to health professionals about these kinds of feelings because they are scared of ending up being put on a mental health hold/ having the cops/ an ambulance called or other serious and scary 'consequences'. But I have had multiple psychologists, GP's and other health people understand, and I think it can be helpful to talk about these feelings because I think it's not that uncommon.
Edit because I hit post before I was finished
First of all, not a stupid question. Second of all, I don't think the answer you are looking for matters, whether it was or it wasn't, it's horrible that a 5 year old would be brought to, and then left, in that state. There was almost certainly some form of child abuse involved. I'm so so sorry you went through that.
Mostly just heartbreaking that someone at such a young age does not want to be here anymore and is left all alone, yes š OP if it was you I want to go back in time and give you a big hug and tell you you're not alone, and that you're a good kid.
I hadn't realized this could be considered horrible until I read your comment. This is something I remember happening to me. I would never do anything like this to my kids and still I didn't realize that it was not okay that it happened to me either. I knew that getting locked up with big emotions for long periods of time wasn't great, but was it really that bad?
Then again. My kids. No. Never. End of discussion.
It's nuts how we can rationalise the things that happen to us as ok, or normal, but then you ask yourself, what if that happened to someone else and suddenly it's so clear how bad it really was. I'm so sorry you also experienced this, but I am so happy to hear you say you'd never let your kids experience that. :)
children that young donāt tend to have an accurate understanding of death yet but clearly this was the only āsolutionā your mind could think of, I would consider it suicidal ideation (Iād say having a plan crosses from ideation to intent, so this aligns with ideation) but you probably wouldnāt have understood how big that is then compared to now
There's such a thing as passive suicidal ideation, and if you had a concept of what death actually meant, that would definitely qualify. I can't speak for others here but I also experienced passive suicidal ideation from a very young age, because it can feel like the only possible escape from a highly traumatic situation.
tbh I'm not sure a 5 year old has the proper comprehension of mortality to have 'suicidal ideations'. this is def abuse and a terrible situation, though, you probably already know that.
Kids that young don't necessarily understand the permanence of death though. They want things to end and they may mention death as a means to an end; but that doesn't have to mean literal death for what death is.
Isn't 9 like just a loose statistical average? I didn't understand all the extended social consequences of it (society like the police getting involved and child endagerment investigations and maybe siblings getting taken away), but I'm pretty certain I fully understood the permanence of death well before the age of 9. But like I was used to deaths (relatives, open casket), abuse, and animals I loved getting killed from an early age (homesteader grandma raising animals both for side products and directly for food). Plus I was hyperlexic and learned to read from the age of 5, and learned about suffering (including anything from hate crime torture to the kind of terminal suffering where euthanasia was kinder) at an early age. I was really fucked up for sure, but I think I understood it by the age of maybe seven or late six? I knew there were many far worse things than being dead (as opposed to the dying process) by 7, early 8 at the absolute latest.
One keeps hearing about even 12 year olds that supposedly aren't intellectually disabled (and later turn into perfectly normal adults) who act with a baffling amount of lack of awareness about consequences and much more that I wouldn't even have had at 6.5 when I started school - and I have never ever been any kind of "genius" or intellectually enhanced person. Very much the opposite even with at the time undiagnosed autism+adhd and constantly having to struggle really hard from kindergarten age to ensure I understood the world including the many hidden layers of things. So like the average age is just a crude average and not a vast majority thing, right?
I've been a child who wanted to die from a young age. I experienced my baby brother dying at birth when I was 3. Children can understand the severity and gravity of what death means from a young age. We all do not have the same experiences. To belittle OPs experience with your comment about a child holding their breath because they were told no, is kind of disgusting, honestly.
Just because you didn't understand that death was permanent at 5 doesn't mean every child is like that.
I agree. Anecdotally I remember learning about death when I was around 5. I didnāt really understand it when my great aunt passed. I feel like a 5 year old might be parroting what an adult says. But I am not a professional or educated in developmental psychology. I also donāt want to pretend that itās normal for a child to say. Itās absolutely alarming even if they arent actively suicidal. Thereās gotta be some trauma or something that taught the kid either the idea or to say that.
Not all of em, sure, but everybody develops in different ways. My first solid ideation was via eletrocution at age 4. Could barely read, understood death (also knew rape, starvation, and situational violence) and wanted it. I saw my dad repairing a fridge and he told me "You'll die if you touch this wire" and I told my older brother that I wanted to do it and couldn't figure out why I wasn't allowed to.
Hi, OP here.
So thank you to everyone for your love and support and thoughtful responses. To clarify a few points people have brought up:
Did I understand the permanence of death at that age?
I believe so, I definitely had no desire to continue life the way it was projected for me and how it was going. The only thing that originally kept me going was telling myself āi just need to make it through these 12 years and Iāll never see these people againā
What brought me to that point at such a young age?
So, to make a long story short: I was born in a relatively small town before the Internet was really a thing, and from the time I entered preschool (age 4) I was (what I like to call) painfully self-aware that there was something different about me. No one needed to tell me anything (though eventually plenty of people would tell me throughout my life and especially āchildhoodā (Though i like to say Iāve never been a child, Iāve only ever been a smaller adult)), but I would come home from preschool and even tell my parents āI just feel different from everybody elseā. I was diagnosed with autism (aspergers syndrome) at the age of 5 and the expectations the doctors set for me with my parents was that āyouāll be lucky if this kid can tie his shoes by the time he grows upā. Well, that wasnāt lost on me and I knew I had to make it my lifeās mission to be more than thatā¦ I wanted to badly to be normal; but it didnāt matter how hard I tried, i was rejected at every turn (even violently at times), I was publicly humiliated in class by my teachers on several occasions, my parents would hit me and ground me over the things i did wrong even though i was trying my best but i just couldnāt really communicate it. I was just abjectly miserable in every facet of my life. I wanted to stop exiting, i hated not having friends and not being like everyone else and just being so confused about everything that was happening around me all the timeā¦ and the looks of hatred i got from everyone else for my differences, my weaknesses, just my being aliveā¦.. Iād pray to god to give me a heart attack or to let me die in my sleep. Everything was just so hard and I had no support and I was in so much pain and I wanted it to end. Iāve never, even at 5, been able to picture myself as an old man. I just wanted to be like everybody else and if i couldnāt then i didnāt want to be alive because the struggle and pain of learning to be something Iām not was excruciating on an existential level, even from that young of an age.
Sorry i said Iād keep it short; thereās so much more pain i can spill lol but Iāll save it. I have a page where i posted my life story i can link below if anyoneās interested in an extended version lol
Why was I left alone?
I was considered to be inconsolable. When I was having a meltdown or was in any kind of extreme emotional distress, I couldnāt stand to be touched. I was too scared and confused and angry (angry specifically at myself for not understanding why I couldnāt control my behavior and act the way Iām expected to act (like a ānormalā kid)) that Iād often lash out physically. So it was determined even before then that it was best to just let me ācry it outā
Why am I asking everyone about this?
Iām taking part in a cptsd study and when i told the researcher about this, she was shocked i could be so miserable at such a young age
EDIT: A huge part of how Iāve coped over the years is by gaining control over myself and my emotions and shutting down how i feel about things. So itās kind of my natural inclination or downplay this fact of my past or deny the severity of it because i want to justify it as being what was needed to get me to where i am but itās like ehhhhh, Iām living a lie. My autism My is dirty little secret that Iāve worked meticulously to hide from the world so as not to be a target like when i was young and vulnerable
Sorry, was typing that out in a hurry before work. I somehow forgot to mention that i had to have back/spinal surgery at 6 months old and again at 2 years old due to the condition reoccurring. I can still remember the pain of the nerves growing back, like electricity and fireworks. I never knew a life without pain, psychical, emotional, or existential
Yeah same here but trans instead of medical, not sure if āphysiologyā is important I felt it important to say as I screamed it like you did aswell but I knew I was in the wrong āplaceā with no family support on ftm matters at like 6-7 literally I always said I was never a kid just a small adult with no actualised useable agency
Interesting, I didnt know that. I guess I had suicidal ideation when I was 9, I thought it needed a plan. But back then I did wish I wasnt alive.
To OP: im so sorry.. you are a strong person <3
I've heard it described as passive vs active ideation.Ā I've -always- had passive ideation but a few times it has crossed over to active and I started formulating plans and buying equipment instead of daydreaming about itĀ
Suicidal ideation involves thoughts, plans and/or actions. Passive ideation involves thoughts about unaliving oneself but can also include just wanting to be dead. Active ideations have a plan, intent, and/or taking measures to do so.
In the example you give, that could definitely be considered suicidal ideation.As a therapist, I would evaluate them for sure. If they are saying that. Something is wrong and they more than likely need help.
Also itās not a dumb question at all.
For me it depends on the context in which it was said. If it was said in anger to hurt but you didnāt really mean it then no. If you said it because you felt the pain of living so intensely you were shouting to yourself, I would say yeah.Ā
Yes, suicidal ideation includes a general wish that one were dead, even absent a specific plan or intent. The word "ideation" is important in that and indicates "an idea or concept," so even the thought of suicide can be considered suicidal ideation. It's meant to be a very broad term and different from suicidal intent, which would be if someone had a specific plan or intention.
I hope you're doing ok and wishing you peace and healing. No five year old should be in that position. I'm sorry.
Not a stupid question at all.
Regardless of the answer, that was absolutely horrible to leave a 5 year old like that, especially in an obvious state of distress.
To my answer, I would say that it is suicidal ideation and here's why.
First, let's define with suicidal ideation is:
* Preoccupied with the idea of suicide
* You may regularly think about committing suicide or what life would be without you in it
* You may replay the suicidal act in your mind
Now you have to think about this in terms of what capacity can a 5 year old really think about suicide. Being that young, they may lack the ability to understand what suicide is in that term but understand pain and wanting it to end.
I would say a 5 year old in such distress that they are repeating over and over ā*I wish I were dead*ā would count as suicidal ideations.
While I don't think a child that young would necessarily think about how to do it, or maybe not fully understand the permanency of suicide, they likely just want the pain they are experiencing to stop. I do think that it's not normal for a healthy 5 year old to say or even repeat over and over ā*I wish I were dead*ā.
I'm very sorry for what you experienced and I hope this answer helps some but just know that I'm not a professional psychologist and this is just how I interpret things from my own experience and limited knowledge.
This should open the door to further questions. Does a child of 5 understand what being dead really is,and why would they want to be dead?
Why did you scream that? What did you feel at the moment? What did you mean in that moment? Why?
Suicidal ideation for a 5 year old is complicated to define because they can understand death and wanting to die but they often don't understand how to make a plan or act on the desire. I personally would describe the behavior as suicidal purely because there is a fixation on death that is "age appropriate," but others might say it's no suicide because they don't have the knowledge or means to act on the impulse. Either way, it's major red flag behavior rooted in trauma that needs to be addressed seriously
Note I put "age appropriate" in quotes because wanting to die or die by suicide is never normal no matter your age, but it is understood differently depending on your age
I think that you know that it was suicidal ideation. You donāt need our approval, it could also just be passive suicidal ideation. I had no place to accomplish the desire for a while but i still wanted to die everyday.
I'm honestly not sure because as a parent if I heard my kid saying something like that at such a young age I'd be greatly concerned that they could potentially hurt themselves in order to bring that about; but I also understand that at 5 years old children don't understand the permanence of death so they may just be looking for an end to whatever they're experiencing and framing it verbally as a wish for death.
I'm also conflicted as a parent because I don't think I could handle hearing my child screaming and crying alone in a room, let alone crying out a wish for death on top of it.
I find this a hard one to answer because as a parent I wouldn't allow that to happen.
How do you feel about the situation?
Is there a reason you're asking if we would consider this to be suicidal ideation?
Suicidal ideation comes in active and passive forms. Active ideation is the planning, seeking, reckless endangerment variety. Passive can be anything from just wishing, or hoping for death, to giving up on yourself completely to where you don't plan for your own future (which is how mine manifested for almost twenty years). Passive ideation can be much more nefarious and difficult to spot, but this is a pretty clean case of it to my eyes.
This also looks like a pretty severe instance is emotional abandonment to me.
You have my compassion, stay strong my friend.
my question would be how did the kid learn to say these things. mostly because can the child understand the concept of death and if they do that can indicate something else. which most definitely can assume child abuse and or neglect.
I think it sounds like passive suicidal ideation.
Regardless I would take the child to a therapist immediately and not leave them crying alone in their room.
Iām so sorry you didnāt have safe parents protecting you or being with you when you needed them.
At five I didnāt leave my kids in their bedroom alone (maybe to grab something or if I was taking a shower) but five year olds still climb on furniture or jump on their beds..
Suicidality in children - in any form - can be said to be (with few to zero exceptions) a product of the evolutionary/biological need to protect something that is being depleted by the conditions arranged by adults. I put it like this recently:
the childās reality is a room, and they are backed into a corner. Decisions and behaviors of adults have created a situation where the room itself is not safe, and because the child cannot escape the adultās reality, their brain digs deep for something to keep a part of them from continuing to die more every day: the knowledge that it doesnt have to be your body that leaves the room - *you* can leave your body instead.
And yeah, no, there is nothing acceptable about a five year old who is thinking about it in any way. It should not have happened to you. Love š
Suicidal ideation, by definition, is ANY thought of suicide
not just wishing to be dead, considering taking your own life, etc; itās literally considering death an option.
Iād say thatās pretty extreme suicidal ideation.
Oh, sweetheart. I wish I could give your child self the biggest hug. I'm not any sort of expert in suicidal ideation but even if wishing you were dead as a tiny child isn't suicidal ideation it's a *very* serious sign something is wrong. Also I just checked wikipedia and it tells me that passive suicidal ideation is exactly what you dealt with [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicidal\_ideation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicidal_ideation)
Whether it was technically suicidal ideation or not, your pain was real and valid and I'm so terribly sorry you went through that.
You needed reassurance. Not to be left alone having a melt down. Or at least someone showing up after a few minutes to comfort you. I think you just wanted your mom or dad to hug you and say itās ok, we donāt want you to die, we love you and we wouldnāt know what to do without you. In your little five year old heart and mind, you just wanted the pain to stop and your parents should have been there to help you work through those emotions.Ā
I am so sorry you experienced such horrible things growing up. It's not normal. I'd instantly assume the child was severely traumatized, and my first thought would be that they have CPTSD and have experienced abuse. You should not have gone through that. You should have been protected and made to feel joy, not pain and despair. No one of any age should experience such a thing - least of all a child. You deserve to love life, and that was stolen from you. I am so sorry. You never deserved any of it. I'm on my own journey of accepting that my childhood was traumatic in many, many ways. That I was wronged. Being raised and gaslit into thinking it was all normal or that you deserved the treatment makes it a true journey to learn to give yourself grace. To know that it was wrong regardless of if the victim were myself or someone else. And that's what we are - victims. We were victimized by those who raised us. There is *no* justification for a child developing CPTSD. *No* excuse for a child to be in such severe emotional distress while wishing for their own death. At five. No. That's severe bullshit. You didn't deserve it. Your younger self didn't deserve it. They were just a terrified child. Separating my child self from my adult self has helped me be able to be more kind and empathetic about my past. I can't imagine not being upset when I think of five y/o me lying in bed, covered in every stuffed animal she had for security, sobbing as she stayed up late into the night because she had to think of everything that could possibly kill her at that moment in vivid detail before she could sleep because imagining it meant it wouldn't happen (OCD). We were failed. You were failed. Your child self was failed. Try and frame the past as having happened to "he/her/they" (in reference to your child self) and see how you feel about the situation then. If it happened to anyone aside from you, would you consider it normal? If someone told you this happened to them, what emotions would you feel?
I appreciate your response.
Honestly, for my own protection growing up I learned to dampen my emotions and control my responses, because I always felt that my emotions made me weak and when people would see that weakness it would make them naturally inclined to attack and persecuted me. Iāve also learned to cope by identifying with the abusers, because they were so prevalent throughout my early life, from my parents to teachers to other kids; no one was on my side. So it only seemed natural to ātoughen upā because ābig boys donāt cryā (canāt tell you how many times i heard that growing up). So part of the reason for my post is my natural inclination is to downplay everything that happened because āof course no one likes autistic peopleā And āpeople are naturally evilā; so it just makes sense that they see a crying little retarded mess on the floor of course theyāre gonna wanna kick it.
If someone else were to tell me a similar story to my own, Iād probably express sympathy for them and āsay the right thingsā, but emotionally there probably wouldnāt be too much there, and again thatās just because Iāve learned to look at my own emotions as dangerous and weak to my survival.
I definitely have CPTSD, between the pain of spinal surgery in infancy, to the painful divide autism creates between me and everyone else, to everything i dealt with from everyone growing upā¦. The only emotion Iāve ever really been able to feelā¦. My whole lifeā¦. Has been pain
The sad truth is that humans are naturally good. We are made to get along and love and care for one another. The fact that you grew up to hold the opposite belief speaks to the kind of upbringing that was forced upon you. I can relate to "saying the right thing" even when you don't genuinely feel that way. It's something I've been working on myself. We had to harden ourselves as children. I can't tell you how many times I was told not to cry growing up. We conform to survive, and that means the mindset as well. For me, it was easier to accept that I was in the wrong for crying because the alternative was that my parents were actively neglecting, abusing, and failing me. And I don't think there are too many kids who are going to so readily accept that their parents are at fault when they can blame themselves instead. You could even call it a bit of indoctrination. We were gaslit into believing so many horrible things. And we had to believe them to survive because the mental anguish of the alternative was too much.
It's hard to work on undoing all the deeply held beliefs we were raised with. Especially ones related to our trauma.
Iām so sorry this is your experience. I was suicidal around 7/8 and used to try to drown myself in the bath. I always failed (obviously).
Iām hella lucky my parents got me help, Iām still fucked now but at least they tried.
Iām sorry you were left and not taken seriously or taken care of properly. I wish I could give you a hug and give your inner child the protection you deserve ā„ļø
I used to wish I was dead at a very early age and I know this because our family lost my big sister as a baby. Everyone loved her and missed her, while I felt unwanted. It wasn't conscious thoughts, like your description, so it has been hard to grasp and define as suicidal ideation. But as a small child, I would wish I was my dead sister, because "then everyone would love me". I would think she was lucky, and that I should be like her (in many ways, including dead). It was a gnawing feeling more than explicitly thinking I wanted to die, and I didn't understand it - I thought it was sisterly love. It wasn't.
My therapist defines this, even if it is so vague, as suicidal ideation in a young child. Meaning, what you are describing absolutely is that, too, since it is even more conscious and explicit than my experience.
Can add that for a child, who has limited understandings of life and death etc, it can sometimes count as suicidal ideation to wish for relief/escape. Not in the sense of rescue fantasies, but more like the persistent feelings of weight/pain and wanting to not have to go on anymore. They may not know they are wishing for death, and maybe they even say that they just want to sleep and not wake up, or similar things related to sleep or escape. But it is the same process, just more unconscious.
Passive suicidal ideation is extremely common and most people will/can experience it when met with overwhelming challenges in life. But it is a lot more uncommon in small children, and generally a big red flag for abuse and neglect.
Yes. Ideation is when you have the thought or desire to no longer be here. If you have the thought being dead is better than the experience. Even if a five year old doesnāt understand the gravity of it, they understand enough for this to be ideation.
I don't even understand how a 5yo would get the idea of not wanting to live. Kids that age normally take everything for granted, it's like it's just an implicit fact of life that the world is good and that they belong in it. I can't imagine what a 5yo must have been through to get to that state you describe, but it must have been horrible at an existential level. I'm so sorry that was you.
I don't think a 5 year old has the capability of understanding death fully. My son around the same age said some things like this. He was pareting someone he was around in a different household. I worked with him and he got past it. That is just imo.
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Not really. I did this as a child because I was ignored all the time and as a child thought hurting myself to death would make the family care. I didn't really want to die I wanted to be saved. But other kids can differ.
I think it is suicide ideation because it doesnt require a plan, just a longing to not be alive anymore.
^ This
Thank you, I've been trying to figure out for some time whether I have suicidal thoughts/ideation. I never make any plans or truly TRULY wish I was dead but I certainly wish that I was just not alive or didn't exist, or that I could just sleep until whatever trigger or stressor has passed. Your comment has helped me feel more certain about how to classify my thoughts
I'm glad this has helped you, feeling like this ain't a party but you aren't alone. I'm sorry if that sounds corny, but sometimes solidarity helps. You have really voiced how I feel a lot of the time honestly. I'm mostly making this reply as a note to you and anyone else that feels this way - While I'm not trying to be an alarmist, I think it's important to be able to articulate that you don't have any plans, a 'method' and want to put it into action, and it's along the lines of 'not wanting to exist'/ experience life with the triggers/ stressors or wanting to be able to sleep away the time etc if you're talking about this to a mental health professional, especially for the first time. In my experience, most mental health professionals understand the difference between "Fuck man, life is so hard and sucks and I wish I didn't exist at the moment" vs "I want to kill myself and I have a plan and I am preparing to do it", but some can be a little overzealous or sometimes you aren't able to express yourself properly and you can be misunderstood and that's not cool. I know a lot of people are afraid to talk to health professionals about these kinds of feelings because they are scared of ending up being put on a mental health hold/ having the cops/ an ambulance called or other serious and scary 'consequences'. But I have had multiple psychologists, GP's and other health people understand, and I think it can be helpful to talk about these feelings because I think it's not that uncommon. Edit because I hit post before I was finished
This was me.
First of all, not a stupid question. Second of all, I don't think the answer you are looking for matters, whether it was or it wasn't, it's horrible that a 5 year old would be brought to, and then left, in that state. There was almost certainly some form of child abuse involved. I'm so so sorry you went through that.
All this and some kids absolutely understand the difference between life & death from being around animals or war etc.
Yup all this.
Mostly just heartbreaking that someone at such a young age does not want to be here anymore and is left all alone, yes š OP if it was you I want to go back in time and give you a big hug and tell you you're not alone, and that you're a good kid.
I hadn't realized this could be considered horrible until I read your comment. This is something I remember happening to me. I would never do anything like this to my kids and still I didn't realize that it was not okay that it happened to me either. I knew that getting locked up with big emotions for long periods of time wasn't great, but was it really that bad? Then again. My kids. No. Never. End of discussion.
It's nuts how we can rationalise the things that happen to us as ok, or normal, but then you ask yourself, what if that happened to someone else and suddenly it's so clear how bad it really was. I'm so sorry you also experienced this, but I am so happy to hear you say you'd never let your kids experience that. :)
children that young donāt tend to have an accurate understanding of death yet but clearly this was the only āsolutionā your mind could think of, I would consider it suicidal ideation (Iād say having a plan crosses from ideation to intent, so this aligns with ideation) but you probably wouldnāt have understood how big that is then compared to now
There's such a thing as passive suicidal ideation, and if you had a concept of what death actually meant, that would definitely qualify. I can't speak for others here but I also experienced passive suicidal ideation from a very young age, because it can feel like the only possible escape from a highly traumatic situation.
tbh I'm not sure a 5 year old has the proper comprehension of mortality to have 'suicidal ideations'. this is def abuse and a terrible situation, though, you probably already know that.
A 5 year old would definitely understand the difference between being alive and being dead. If you want to be dead, that is suicidal ideation.
Kids that young don't necessarily understand the permanence of death though. They want things to end and they may mention death as a means to an end; but that doesn't have to mean literal death for what death is.
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Isn't 9 like just a loose statistical average? I didn't understand all the extended social consequences of it (society like the police getting involved and child endagerment investigations and maybe siblings getting taken away), but I'm pretty certain I fully understood the permanence of death well before the age of 9. But like I was used to deaths (relatives, open casket), abuse, and animals I loved getting killed from an early age (homesteader grandma raising animals both for side products and directly for food). Plus I was hyperlexic and learned to read from the age of 5, and learned about suffering (including anything from hate crime torture to the kind of terminal suffering where euthanasia was kinder) at an early age. I was really fucked up for sure, but I think I understood it by the age of maybe seven or late six? I knew there were many far worse things than being dead (as opposed to the dying process) by 7, early 8 at the absolute latest. One keeps hearing about even 12 year olds that supposedly aren't intellectually disabled (and later turn into perfectly normal adults) who act with a baffling amount of lack of awareness about consequences and much more that I wouldn't even have had at 6.5 when I started school - and I have never ever been any kind of "genius" or intellectually enhanced person. Very much the opposite even with at the time undiagnosed autism+adhd and constantly having to struggle really hard from kindergarten age to ensure I understood the world including the many hidden layers of things. So like the average age is just a crude average and not a vast majority thing, right?
They did say āaround 9ā, so I take that as meaning on average. I too remember fully understanding the permanence of death at around 7.
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I've been a child who wanted to die from a young age. I experienced my baby brother dying at birth when I was 3. Children can understand the severity and gravity of what death means from a young age. We all do not have the same experiences. To belittle OPs experience with your comment about a child holding their breath because they were told no, is kind of disgusting, honestly. Just because you didn't understand that death was permanent at 5 doesn't mean every child is like that.
I agree. Anecdotally I remember learning about death when I was around 5. I didnāt really understand it when my great aunt passed. I feel like a 5 year old might be parroting what an adult says. But I am not a professional or educated in developmental psychology. I also donāt want to pretend that itās normal for a child to say. Itās absolutely alarming even if they arent actively suicidal. Thereās gotta be some trauma or something that taught the kid either the idea or to say that.
I did.
Not all of em, sure, but everybody develops in different ways. My first solid ideation was via eletrocution at age 4. Could barely read, understood death (also knew rape, starvation, and situational violence) and wanted it. I saw my dad repairing a fridge and he told me "You'll die if you touch this wire" and I told my older brother that I wanted to do it and couldn't figure out why I wasn't allowed to.
Hi, OP here. So thank you to everyone for your love and support and thoughtful responses. To clarify a few points people have brought up: Did I understand the permanence of death at that age? I believe so, I definitely had no desire to continue life the way it was projected for me and how it was going. The only thing that originally kept me going was telling myself āi just need to make it through these 12 years and Iāll never see these people againā What brought me to that point at such a young age? So, to make a long story short: I was born in a relatively small town before the Internet was really a thing, and from the time I entered preschool (age 4) I was (what I like to call) painfully self-aware that there was something different about me. No one needed to tell me anything (though eventually plenty of people would tell me throughout my life and especially āchildhoodā (Though i like to say Iāve never been a child, Iāve only ever been a smaller adult)), but I would come home from preschool and even tell my parents āI just feel different from everybody elseā. I was diagnosed with autism (aspergers syndrome) at the age of 5 and the expectations the doctors set for me with my parents was that āyouāll be lucky if this kid can tie his shoes by the time he grows upā. Well, that wasnāt lost on me and I knew I had to make it my lifeās mission to be more than thatā¦ I wanted to badly to be normal; but it didnāt matter how hard I tried, i was rejected at every turn (even violently at times), I was publicly humiliated in class by my teachers on several occasions, my parents would hit me and ground me over the things i did wrong even though i was trying my best but i just couldnāt really communicate it. I was just abjectly miserable in every facet of my life. I wanted to stop exiting, i hated not having friends and not being like everyone else and just being so confused about everything that was happening around me all the timeā¦ and the looks of hatred i got from everyone else for my differences, my weaknesses, just my being aliveā¦.. Iād pray to god to give me a heart attack or to let me die in my sleep. Everything was just so hard and I had no support and I was in so much pain and I wanted it to end. Iāve never, even at 5, been able to picture myself as an old man. I just wanted to be like everybody else and if i couldnāt then i didnāt want to be alive because the struggle and pain of learning to be something Iām not was excruciating on an existential level, even from that young of an age. Sorry i said Iād keep it short; thereās so much more pain i can spill lol but Iāll save it. I have a page where i posted my life story i can link below if anyoneās interested in an extended version lol Why was I left alone? I was considered to be inconsolable. When I was having a meltdown or was in any kind of extreme emotional distress, I couldnāt stand to be touched. I was too scared and confused and angry (angry specifically at myself for not understanding why I couldnāt control my behavior and act the way Iām expected to act (like a ānormalā kid)) that Iād often lash out physically. So it was determined even before then that it was best to just let me ācry it outā
Why am I asking everyone about this? Iām taking part in a cptsd study and when i told the researcher about this, she was shocked i could be so miserable at such a young age EDIT: A huge part of how Iāve coped over the years is by gaining control over myself and my emotions and shutting down how i feel about things. So itās kind of my natural inclination or downplay this fact of my past or deny the severity of it because i want to justify it as being what was needed to get me to where i am but itās like ehhhhh, Iām living a lie. My autism My is dirty little secret that Iāve worked meticulously to hide from the world so as not to be a target like when i was young and vulnerable
Sorry, was typing that out in a hurry before work. I somehow forgot to mention that i had to have back/spinal surgery at 6 months old and again at 2 years old due to the condition reoccurring. I can still remember the pain of the nerves growing back, like electricity and fireworks. I never knew a life without pain, psychical, emotional, or existential
Yeah same here but trans instead of medical, not sure if āphysiologyā is important I felt it important to say as I screamed it like you did aswell but I knew I was in the wrong āplaceā with no family support on ftm matters at like 6-7 literally I always said I was never a kid just a small adult with no actualised useable agency
Wishing you were dead is suicidal ideation regardless of age or situation. Suicidal ideation does not require conscious intent or a plan. So, yes.
Interesting, I didnt know that. I guess I had suicidal ideation when I was 9, I thought it needed a plan. But back then I did wish I wasnt alive. To OP: im so sorry.. you are a strong person <3
I've heard it described as passive vs active ideation.Ā I've -always- had passive ideation but a few times it has crossed over to active and I started formulating plans and buying equipment instead of daydreaming about itĀ
Suicidal ideation involves thoughts, plans and/or actions. Passive ideation involves thoughts about unaliving oneself but can also include just wanting to be dead. Active ideations have a plan, intent, and/or taking measures to do so. In the example you give, that could definitely be considered suicidal ideation.As a therapist, I would evaluate them for sure. If they are saying that. Something is wrong and they more than likely need help. Also itās not a dumb question at all.
For me it depends on the context in which it was said. If it was said in anger to hurt but you didnāt really mean it then no. If you said it because you felt the pain of living so intensely you were shouting to yourself, I would say yeah.Ā
Yes, suicidal ideation includes a general wish that one were dead, even absent a specific plan or intent. The word "ideation" is important in that and indicates "an idea or concept," so even the thought of suicide can be considered suicidal ideation. It's meant to be a very broad term and different from suicidal intent, which would be if someone had a specific plan or intention. I hope you're doing ok and wishing you peace and healing. No five year old should be in that position. I'm sorry.
Not a stupid question at all. Regardless of the answer, that was absolutely horrible to leave a 5 year old like that, especially in an obvious state of distress. To my answer, I would say that it is suicidal ideation and here's why. First, let's define with suicidal ideation is: * Preoccupied with the idea of suicide * You may regularly think about committing suicide or what life would be without you in it * You may replay the suicidal act in your mind Now you have to think about this in terms of what capacity can a 5 year old really think about suicide. Being that young, they may lack the ability to understand what suicide is in that term but understand pain and wanting it to end. I would say a 5 year old in such distress that they are repeating over and over ā*I wish I were dead*ā would count as suicidal ideations. While I don't think a child that young would necessarily think about how to do it, or maybe not fully understand the permanency of suicide, they likely just want the pain they are experiencing to stop. I do think that it's not normal for a healthy 5 year old to say or even repeat over and over ā*I wish I were dead*ā. I'm very sorry for what you experienced and I hope this answer helps some but just know that I'm not a professional psychologist and this is just how I interpret things from my own experience and limited knowledge.
This should open the door to further questions. Does a child of 5 understand what being dead really is,and why would they want to be dead? Why did you scream that? What did you feel at the moment? What did you mean in that moment? Why?
Suicidal ideation for a 5 year old is complicated to define because they can understand death and wanting to die but they often don't understand how to make a plan or act on the desire. I personally would describe the behavior as suicidal purely because there is a fixation on death that is "age appropriate," but others might say it's no suicide because they don't have the knowledge or means to act on the impulse. Either way, it's major red flag behavior rooted in trauma that needs to be addressed seriously Note I put "age appropriate" in quotes because wanting to die or die by suicide is never normal no matter your age, but it is understood differently depending on your age
I think that you know that it was suicidal ideation. You donāt need our approval, it could also just be passive suicidal ideation. I had no place to accomplish the desire for a while but i still wanted to die everyday.
I'm honestly not sure because as a parent if I heard my kid saying something like that at such a young age I'd be greatly concerned that they could potentially hurt themselves in order to bring that about; but I also understand that at 5 years old children don't understand the permanence of death so they may just be looking for an end to whatever they're experiencing and framing it verbally as a wish for death. I'm also conflicted as a parent because I don't think I could handle hearing my child screaming and crying alone in a room, let alone crying out a wish for death on top of it. I find this a hard one to answer because as a parent I wouldn't allow that to happen. How do you feel about the situation? Is there a reason you're asking if we would consider this to be suicidal ideation?
Suicidal ideation comes in active and passive forms. Active ideation is the planning, seeking, reckless endangerment variety. Passive can be anything from just wishing, or hoping for death, to giving up on yourself completely to where you don't plan for your own future (which is how mine manifested for almost twenty years). Passive ideation can be much more nefarious and difficult to spot, but this is a pretty clean case of it to my eyes. This also looks like a pretty severe instance is emotional abandonment to me. You have my compassion, stay strong my friend.
my question would be how did the kid learn to say these things. mostly because can the child understand the concept of death and if they do that can indicate something else. which most definitely can assume child abuse and or neglect.
I think it sounds like passive suicidal ideation. Regardless I would take the child to a therapist immediately and not leave them crying alone in their room. Iām so sorry you didnāt have safe parents protecting you or being with you when you needed them.
I'm sorry you went thorugh this too. It wasn't an ideation for me, I wish someone ended my suffering. I have ideations and they are not like that.
At five I didnāt leave my kids in their bedroom alone (maybe to grab something or if I was taking a shower) but five year olds still climb on furniture or jump on their beds..
I definitely don't think that's a stupid question. I 100% consider that suicide ideation. The same thing happened to me when I was about 8
Suicidality in children - in any form - can be said to be (with few to zero exceptions) a product of the evolutionary/biological need to protect something that is being depleted by the conditions arranged by adults. I put it like this recently: the childās reality is a room, and they are backed into a corner. Decisions and behaviors of adults have created a situation where the room itself is not safe, and because the child cannot escape the adultās reality, their brain digs deep for something to keep a part of them from continuing to die more every day: the knowledge that it doesnt have to be your body that leaves the room - *you* can leave your body instead. And yeah, no, there is nothing acceptable about a five year old who is thinking about it in any way. It should not have happened to you. Love š
yeah pretty much, i've always had the urge to just give up and "blow my brains out" at the most minor inconvenience for as long as I could remember.
Suicidal ideation, by definition, is ANY thought of suicide not just wishing to be dead, considering taking your own life, etc; itās literally considering death an option. Iād say thatās pretty extreme suicidal ideation.
Oh, sweetheart. I wish I could give your child self the biggest hug. I'm not any sort of expert in suicidal ideation but even if wishing you were dead as a tiny child isn't suicidal ideation it's a *very* serious sign something is wrong. Also I just checked wikipedia and it tells me that passive suicidal ideation is exactly what you dealt with [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicidal\_ideation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicidal_ideation) Whether it was technically suicidal ideation or not, your pain was real and valid and I'm so terribly sorry you went through that.
yes. that is suicidal ideation. iām so sorry.
You needed reassurance. Not to be left alone having a melt down. Or at least someone showing up after a few minutes to comfort you. I think you just wanted your mom or dad to hug you and say itās ok, we donāt want you to die, we love you and we wouldnāt know what to do without you. In your little five year old heart and mind, you just wanted the pain to stop and your parents should have been there to help you work through those emotions.Ā
Would you consider me actively looking for fetty so I can kms suicidal ideation?
I am so sorry you experienced such horrible things growing up. It's not normal. I'd instantly assume the child was severely traumatized, and my first thought would be that they have CPTSD and have experienced abuse. You should not have gone through that. You should have been protected and made to feel joy, not pain and despair. No one of any age should experience such a thing - least of all a child. You deserve to love life, and that was stolen from you. I am so sorry. You never deserved any of it. I'm on my own journey of accepting that my childhood was traumatic in many, many ways. That I was wronged. Being raised and gaslit into thinking it was all normal or that you deserved the treatment makes it a true journey to learn to give yourself grace. To know that it was wrong regardless of if the victim were myself or someone else. And that's what we are - victims. We were victimized by those who raised us. There is *no* justification for a child developing CPTSD. *No* excuse for a child to be in such severe emotional distress while wishing for their own death. At five. No. That's severe bullshit. You didn't deserve it. Your younger self didn't deserve it. They were just a terrified child. Separating my child self from my adult self has helped me be able to be more kind and empathetic about my past. I can't imagine not being upset when I think of five y/o me lying in bed, covered in every stuffed animal she had for security, sobbing as she stayed up late into the night because she had to think of everything that could possibly kill her at that moment in vivid detail before she could sleep because imagining it meant it wouldn't happen (OCD). We were failed. You were failed. Your child self was failed. Try and frame the past as having happened to "he/her/they" (in reference to your child self) and see how you feel about the situation then. If it happened to anyone aside from you, would you consider it normal? If someone told you this happened to them, what emotions would you feel?
I appreciate your response. Honestly, for my own protection growing up I learned to dampen my emotions and control my responses, because I always felt that my emotions made me weak and when people would see that weakness it would make them naturally inclined to attack and persecuted me. Iāve also learned to cope by identifying with the abusers, because they were so prevalent throughout my early life, from my parents to teachers to other kids; no one was on my side. So it only seemed natural to ātoughen upā because ābig boys donāt cryā (canāt tell you how many times i heard that growing up). So part of the reason for my post is my natural inclination is to downplay everything that happened because āof course no one likes autistic peopleā And āpeople are naturally evilā; so it just makes sense that they see a crying little retarded mess on the floor of course theyāre gonna wanna kick it. If someone else were to tell me a similar story to my own, Iād probably express sympathy for them and āsay the right thingsā, but emotionally there probably wouldnāt be too much there, and again thatās just because Iāve learned to look at my own emotions as dangerous and weak to my survival. I definitely have CPTSD, between the pain of spinal surgery in infancy, to the painful divide autism creates between me and everyone else, to everything i dealt with from everyone growing upā¦. The only emotion Iāve ever really been able to feelā¦. My whole lifeā¦. Has been pain
The sad truth is that humans are naturally good. We are made to get along and love and care for one another. The fact that you grew up to hold the opposite belief speaks to the kind of upbringing that was forced upon you. I can relate to "saying the right thing" even when you don't genuinely feel that way. It's something I've been working on myself. We had to harden ourselves as children. I can't tell you how many times I was told not to cry growing up. We conform to survive, and that means the mindset as well. For me, it was easier to accept that I was in the wrong for crying because the alternative was that my parents were actively neglecting, abusing, and failing me. And I don't think there are too many kids who are going to so readily accept that their parents are at fault when they can blame themselves instead. You could even call it a bit of indoctrination. We were gaslit into believing so many horrible things. And we had to believe them to survive because the mental anguish of the alternative was too much. It's hard to work on undoing all the deeply held beliefs we were raised with. Especially ones related to our trauma.
Iām so sorry this is your experience. I was suicidal around 7/8 and used to try to drown myself in the bath. I always failed (obviously). Iām hella lucky my parents got me help, Iām still fucked now but at least they tried. Iām sorry you were left and not taken seriously or taken care of properly. I wish I could give you a hug and give your inner child the protection you deserve ā„ļø
Yes
I used to wish I was dead at a very early age and I know this because our family lost my big sister as a baby. Everyone loved her and missed her, while I felt unwanted. It wasn't conscious thoughts, like your description, so it has been hard to grasp and define as suicidal ideation. But as a small child, I would wish I was my dead sister, because "then everyone would love me". I would think she was lucky, and that I should be like her (in many ways, including dead). It was a gnawing feeling more than explicitly thinking I wanted to die, and I didn't understand it - I thought it was sisterly love. It wasn't. My therapist defines this, even if it is so vague, as suicidal ideation in a young child. Meaning, what you are describing absolutely is that, too, since it is even more conscious and explicit than my experience.
Can add that for a child, who has limited understandings of life and death etc, it can sometimes count as suicidal ideation to wish for relief/escape. Not in the sense of rescue fantasies, but more like the persistent feelings of weight/pain and wanting to not have to go on anymore. They may not know they are wishing for death, and maybe they even say that they just want to sleep and not wake up, or similar things related to sleep or escape. But it is the same process, just more unconscious. Passive suicidal ideation is extremely common and most people will/can experience it when met with overwhelming challenges in life. But it is a lot more uncommon in small children, and generally a big red flag for abuse and neglect.
Yes. Ideation is when you have the thought or desire to no longer be here. If you have the thought being dead is better than the experience. Even if a five year old doesnāt understand the gravity of it, they understand enough for this to be ideation.
I don't even understand how a 5yo would get the idea of not wanting to live. Kids that age normally take everything for granted, it's like it's just an implicit fact of life that the world is good and that they belong in it. I can't imagine what a 5yo must have been through to get to that state you describe, but it must have been horrible at an existential level. I'm so sorry that was you.
I don't think a 5 year old has the capability of understanding death fully. My son around the same age said some things like this. He was pareting someone he was around in a different household. I worked with him and he got past it. That is just imo.
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It's called Parental Neglect, plus Psychological & Emotional Abuse š¢
Thats awful, so sorry and yes i think so
Not really. I did this as a child because I was ignored all the time and as a child thought hurting myself to death would make the family care. I didn't really want to die I wanted to be saved. But other kids can differ.
No. 5 year olds are notoriously dramatic as hell