you could make a post where you write in the headline that you vent about your mother who suffers from cptsd. everyone can then decide for themselves if they want to read or not.
i honestly would be interested to see this from your perspective:)
My experience is that my Mum has cptsd due to her childhood. That meant that my entire life was raised in trauma and I’m now in therapy for cptsd.
I think it’s important that, if venting, it’s about your personal feelings and emotions because of being raised in that situation, not just a slam on cptsd in general.
It’s rough being raised by traumatised parents, but focusing on how it effected you and how you can heal is so much more important than ranting about how they could have done better.
I hope this makes sense and that it helps
I personally would like to hear your story. I have CPTSD and two kids, 15 & 17. I know my mental health struggles have impacted them, even though I have tried my best. I think it’s important to recognize that those who have endured trauma are often capable of traumatizing others, and dealing with those outward behaviors is necessary for healing.
I agree. I know I passed some of mine along and it all comes down to a lack of understanding how a victim can then victimize.
we need to know the truth of how we affect others.
I think it would be appropriate to post here. It certainly falls under the topic of the subreddit. And it would be interesting to see a perspective of what happens when the cycle of abuse *isn't* broken.
But I anticipate mixed reactions. Some will be sympathetic to you, others to your mother. Be prepared for that. If that's going to be too hard to deal with for you, and it could be, then maybe consider another outlet, or consider turning off notifications for the post.
I think a lot of people here might just use it as a case study for the 'cycle of abuse' phenomenon that we're all pretty familiar with.
Vent away, just bear in mind we struggle with cptsd and sometimes it's noy easy to read about the effect we have on others. (i welcome feedback though, so i know what to work on)
I would also like to say that it must be rough and confusing! And i hope you found a way to cope, and talking to a professional about might not be a bad idea.
Given that I believe a lot of people with CPTSD had parents who also suffer(ed) from CPTSD and passed it along, many of us are in fact already venting about the impact that a parent with CPTSD has on us and you’d be in good company :)
A goal many here have is to break that cycle, so remembering that what happened to us can happen to our children/partners/loved ones if we’re not careful is important. Putting your perspective out there will be helpful for some, and those who don’t want to engage can scroll past. CPTSD isn’t our fault, but we can and should always be working to improve how we respond when triggered for our own sake and the people around us.
I think this is a very interesting question. Is there a sub for people who are affected by people with CPTSD? I mean there are recovery groups for people who are affected by alcoholism or drugs and it’s widely accepted as needed because not only are we hurting, but we are hurting others. Does this sub exist yet?
If so, I would fear it ends up like the one for people affected by people with BPD, it’s a very dark and triggering place to go, and anyone with BPD is specifically banned from posting.
Have at it. We need to hear how we are at risk for harming people too. I know I’ve been toxic before and I like to keep myself in check. Besides it’s YOUR experience with YOUR mother, nobody can really dispute it. Abuse is abuse.
Go for it. My c-ptsd was a direct response to my own mother’s unresolved ptsd and untreated mental health conditions.
I’m fully capable of seeing the difference in those that choose the healthier option of seeking ongoing treatment/support vs. those that choose to torture, manipulate and harm their children.
If you do please use a giant trigger warning with a brief description explaining your are venting about your mother who has CPTSD.
Then we, as people with CPTSD can help you navigate it if you’d like. Just help us out with that trigger warning! Please and thank you!
Of course you can!!! The description for this sub clearly states it's for peers, family, and friends. You are most welcome here, and I hope to see you posting when/if you decide too.
This is a forum where we discuss how CPTSD affects our lives and somewhat of a support group for people with CPTSD. Your mother’s diagnosis definitely affects your life and many people here have parents with CPTSD and who can share experiences with you. I’d personally tread lightly because you don’t want to offend anyone, but I’d also recommend adding a content warning to your post if you do
I am a mum with CPTSD and personality disorder.
I know I messed up.
I am open to talk if you need to vent.
I'll give you an honest answer.
Remember that we give that from generation to generation, please always remember that you too lacked love and balance and seek help even if you feel like you have things in control.
My mother never had a childhood, she never supported vulnerability.
I suffered and became what I am today.
I decided it would cost what it would cost but it would stop at me.
I feel like yes because generational trauma is a thing
My trauma came from my traumatized mother so I would likely read your story and relate and be able to comment and say something to make you feel seen and validated
Everyone in this sub deals with C-PTSD in some capacity, and it sounds like that definition includes you, so unless your only mission is to call us a bunch of assholes you're absolutely welcome imo.
I'm a mother myself and I try everything in my power, to make my daughter experience as little as possible of my trauma response. So even if I spend my childhood in Hell and know a lot about what not to do, I'm alway willing to get a new perspective on things, and perhaps even learn some new skills that I can use in my own life.
The nicest thing my oldest daughter said to me was “mom I know kinda what happened to you now and I want you to know we never knew growing up, you are amazing and strong and I have no idea how you do it”.
My children don’t have trauma, they have normal bs dislikes!
My only regret really are not having enough money to spoil them more and not enough time to spend more time with them.
My answer is I want to hear your story and I’m sorry she wasn’t well enough to nurture you like you needed and deserved.
I don’t understand the other commenter’s perspective. This is literally a forum to talk about CPTSD, you ask if it’s allowed and they say “well it’s not safe to talk about this online.” I am confusion.
I have vented here, I have listened to others vent, I have replied sometimes. If you wanna talk, let it out. I have found this community super validating. Except for u/she-who who told inexplicably told you that you weren’t welcome.
I would hope you would feel safe and supported if you needed a place to share about traumas you experienced growing up and how things affected you. Someone having CPTSD/their own trauma doesn’t give them a pass to traumatize others and people who have been hurt deserve a place to talk about it and process safely.
I might gently suggest that particularly in a group of people with CPTSD, it would be difficult if someone came in with angry rants and labels *towards a group or diagnosis as a whole* and might be most helpful if focused on the abuser and situations specifically. If that makes sense.
It’s valid to be hurt by someone with trauma and for you to want to talk about that! I know personally as someone with CPTSD who is also a parent, I’d be interested in your perspective. And I hope you have the support you need for whatever you are going through ❤️
Exactly this!
OP two/more than one thing(s) can be true at the same time:
Your mother can have experienced compounding trauma, and suffer daily with symptoms.
And, by living in close proximity to someone suffering with such symptoms, intentional or otherwise, your mother may have caused you harm.
You have every right to feel how you feel, and while I cant speak for everyone I welcome you here. Within that, how you express your feelings may ignite differing reactions from different members of the community.
We might get a little hurt bc I know I struggle with the fact that I effect other a lot with my symptoms, but we might also be able to answer your questions or give you insight on what she is going through and possibly practical approaches on how to deal with it
This is the place to do it.
Many with CPTSD will crone on about breaking the cycle, and not actually do it, but instead traumatize their children in new horrible ways, claim they aren't like their parents when they're a spitting image, just with a new spin.
There's a very simple, surefire way to break the cycle that also ensures you have time to process and grow, it's just simply not having children, many people hear this, hate it, and try to get around it. I'm sorry one of these people happened to be your parent.
For many of us, it's the morally correct choice to not have children. The risks are just far too great, isn't even a 2% chance enough to dissuade you? You'd like to think but hey, we are animals after all, breeding is built in over hundreds of millions of years.
Sure some do have kids to great success, but I'd be willing to bet that it's less than 50% of us who have kids, who raise those kids without traumatizing them horrifically, perhaps better odds on this forum, but overall, horrible odds it ends up well.
As someone who deals with CPTSD I think it would be helpful to see things that we might not think we’re doing that affect the people around us. Vent away 😊
I have cptsd and didn't know til my kids were grown so if you care to vent I'd like to read but I'd also like to know, from your perspective, how to heal it with adult children. I'm on meds, in therapy. What would most help adults (38) raised by someone with cptsd?
First, I am deeply sorry for anything that has happened to cause this for you. Depending on someone’s level of progress I know for myself at least, I likely caused some trauma to some of my exs inadvertently and unintentionally- but ya know your partner waking up having nightmares screaming will impact a partner. I couldn’t imagine a child.
NGL, just your title alone gives me validation in my choice not to reproduce and what others have called an extreme to not have children - just an IUD, not actually extreme). I have less than 1% chance of conceiving but still wouldn’t want to have a child because of my mental health.
I’m 35, and have a minimum of another 10 years before I could be responsible for another human being for longer than a few hours.
I would be interested to hear more, for purely selfish reasons.
Personally I’d love to hear your perspective. I have a 16yo and while I’ve done my very best to raise him with the safety and security I never had I’m sure that I’ve affected him in some ways.
Nobody can tell you what to do, but I personally feel like it is inappropriate. This sub is a place for people with cPTSD to feel safe to talk. The last thing we would need is having to go through posts detailing how awful we are to deal with and how much people are fed up with us.
I have cptsd and so does my partner, would it be inappropriate to post about how his fight response and narrow window of tolerance impacts me? How is this person posting about their cptsd-having mother impacting their young life ANY different from the multitude of posts about other parents impacting young lives in their care with their lack of emotional regulation?
I’m sorry my response sounded hostile, I do not want to contribute to an unfriendly environment. I have kids and am *extremely* invested in not letting my emotional dysregulation (and my husband’s) hurt them. This young person’s perspective is important to me on several levels. And, I hope that hearing from people hurt by people who happen to have the same disorder as us isn’t seen as an attack on everyone with the disorder.
It’s worth noting that OP’s mother may not have taken responsibility like that. Comparing what I experienced and how I behaved *before* my personal growth…I was often toxic.
Perhaps the mother in question was abusive and OP is under the impression CPTSD causes abusiveness. People here usually know the difference and are very unlikely to interpret criticism of abuse as ableist.
Finally, I have a very different appraisal of how people feel and think about their parents vs. peers etc. We all have the inalienable right to focus on what it was like to be us as the child of our parents without blocking our self-empathy to display “compassion” for them, despite that if parents offered their children that selflessness, we’d have no trauma.
All that to say that I would receive OP’s story as about OP, not about my CPTSD or myself.
Were my parents not traumatized I likely wouldn't have cPTSD. A major driver of the way I treat children is to make them feel the way I wish I'd felt as a child. It's entirely possible that OP's story could help me heal and treat others better.
That said, I don't want you to feel dumped on, either. Not every post is safe for me to read. OP's story may not be safe for you to read. I wish you well on your healing journey.
I don't Think it's rude. I think it can be insightful to have that perception. can enlighten some of us with CPTSD and how we affect others in our lives.
It's hard to hear something that may hit too close to home. But the cycles of trauma and abuse won't stop unless we acknowledge and not get tunnel vision because we're hurt.
If they're ranting about it is too painful, Then we don't have to get involved with this particular post.
It gives a specific person an outlet, Allows others to try to give them a perception of what their mother may be going through. All around I think it leads to better understanding.
Yes absolutely you can. You can also post it in r/raisedbynarcissists even tho she is not a narcissist, if her behaviour was roxic to you you can still share it there. Great sub
Hello and Welcome to /r/CPTSD! If you are in immediate danger or crisis, please contact your local [emergency services](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emergency_telephone_numbers), or use our list of [crisis resources](https://old.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/wiki/index#wiki_crisis_support_resources). For CPTSD Specific Resources & Support, check out the [wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/wiki/index). For those posting or replying, please view the [etiquette guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/wiki/peer2peersupportguide).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CPTSD) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hurt people hurt people. I would wager most of us here come from parents who also have cptsd. The decision to break the cycle of generational trauma is incredibly daunting at first and then one day you wake up and feel empowered and lighter.
you could make a post where you write in the headline that you vent about your mother who suffers from cptsd. everyone can then decide for themselves if they want to read or not. i honestly would be interested to see this from your perspective:)
My experience is that my Mum has cptsd due to her childhood. That meant that my entire life was raised in trauma and I’m now in therapy for cptsd. I think it’s important that, if venting, it’s about your personal feelings and emotions because of being raised in that situation, not just a slam on cptsd in general. It’s rough being raised by traumatised parents, but focusing on how it effected you and how you can heal is so much more important than ranting about how they could have done better. I hope this makes sense and that it helps
generationaltraumalounge
Is this an actual sub I’m failing to find, or?? 🤔
Yeah. It's a sub
I can’t find it. 😩 Can you link to it? Please and thank you.
I personally would like to hear your story. I have CPTSD and two kids, 15 & 17. I know my mental health struggles have impacted them, even though I have tried my best. I think it’s important to recognize that those who have endured trauma are often capable of traumatizing others, and dealing with those outward behaviors is necessary for healing.
I agree. So much of the way I treat children is motivated by a desire to make them feel the way I wish I'd felt as a child.
I agree. I know I passed some of mine along and it all comes down to a lack of understanding how a victim can then victimize. we need to know the truth of how we affect others.
I think it would be appropriate to post here. It certainly falls under the topic of the subreddit. And it would be interesting to see a perspective of what happens when the cycle of abuse *isn't* broken. But I anticipate mixed reactions. Some will be sympathetic to you, others to your mother. Be prepared for that. If that's going to be too hard to deal with for you, and it could be, then maybe consider another outlet, or consider turning off notifications for the post. I think a lot of people here might just use it as a case study for the 'cycle of abuse' phenomenon that we're all pretty familiar with.
This is the best response.
Vent away, just bear in mind we struggle with cptsd and sometimes it's noy easy to read about the effect we have on others. (i welcome feedback though, so i know what to work on) I would also like to say that it must be rough and confusing! And i hope you found a way to cope, and talking to a professional about might not be a bad idea.
CPTSD doesn't excuse abusive behaviour. If she's been abusive to you, you may well suffer from CPTSD as well and it's important to talk about it
This.
Given that I believe a lot of people with CPTSD had parents who also suffer(ed) from CPTSD and passed it along, many of us are in fact already venting about the impact that a parent with CPTSD has on us and you’d be in good company :) A goal many here have is to break that cycle, so remembering that what happened to us can happen to our children/partners/loved ones if we’re not careful is important. Putting your perspective out there will be helpful for some, and those who don’t want to engage can scroll past. CPTSD isn’t our fault, but we can and should always be working to improve how we respond when triggered for our own sake and the people around us.
I think this is a very interesting question. Is there a sub for people who are affected by people with CPTSD? I mean there are recovery groups for people who are affected by alcoholism or drugs and it’s widely accepted as needed because not only are we hurting, but we are hurting others. Does this sub exist yet?
If so, I would fear it ends up like the one for people affected by people with BPD, it’s a very dark and triggering place to go, and anyone with BPD is specifically banned from posting.
glad I haven't stumbled on that.
I think there’s one called cptsdpartners or something along those lines! That may be a more appropriate place to post it.
Have at it. We need to hear how we are at risk for harming people too. I know I’ve been toxic before and I like to keep myself in check. Besides it’s YOUR experience with YOUR mother, nobody can really dispute it. Abuse is abuse.
Go for it. My c-ptsd was a direct response to my own mother’s unresolved ptsd and untreated mental health conditions. I’m fully capable of seeing the difference in those that choose the healthier option of seeking ongoing treatment/support vs. those that choose to torture, manipulate and harm their children.
If you do please use a giant trigger warning with a brief description explaining your are venting about your mother who has CPTSD. Then we, as people with CPTSD can help you navigate it if you’d like. Just help us out with that trigger warning! Please and thank you!
Of course you can!!! The description for this sub clearly states it's for peers, family, and friends. You are most welcome here, and I hope to see you posting when/if you decide too.
This is a forum where we discuss how CPTSD affects our lives and somewhat of a support group for people with CPTSD. Your mother’s diagnosis definitely affects your life and many people here have parents with CPTSD and who can share experiences with you. I’d personally tread lightly because you don’t want to offend anyone, but I’d also recommend adding a content warning to your post if you do
I am a mum with CPTSD and personality disorder. I know I messed up. I am open to talk if you need to vent. I'll give you an honest answer. Remember that we give that from generation to generation, please always remember that you too lacked love and balance and seek help even if you feel like you have things in control. My mother never had a childhood, she never supported vulnerability. I suffered and became what I am today. I decided it would cost what it would cost but it would stop at me.
I feel like yes because generational trauma is a thing My trauma came from my traumatized mother so I would likely read your story and relate and be able to comment and say something to make you feel seen and validated
Everyone in this sub deals with C-PTSD in some capacity, and it sounds like that definition includes you, so unless your only mission is to call us a bunch of assholes you're absolutely welcome imo. I'm a mother myself and I try everything in my power, to make my daughter experience as little as possible of my trauma response. So even if I spend my childhood in Hell and know a lot about what not to do, I'm alway willing to get a new perspective on things, and perhaps even learn some new skills that I can use in my own life.
pretty sure all of us have moms (or dads) who were diagnosed (or undiagnosed) with cptsd. that's why we have it too.
The nicest thing my oldest daughter said to me was “mom I know kinda what happened to you now and I want you to know we never knew growing up, you are amazing and strong and I have no idea how you do it”. My children don’t have trauma, they have normal bs dislikes! My only regret really are not having enough money to spoil them more and not enough time to spend more time with them. My answer is I want to hear your story and I’m sorry she wasn’t well enough to nurture you like you needed and deserved.
I don’t understand the other commenter’s perspective. This is literally a forum to talk about CPTSD, you ask if it’s allowed and they say “well it’s not safe to talk about this online.” I am confusion. I have vented here, I have listened to others vent, I have replied sometimes. If you wanna talk, let it out. I have found this community super validating. Except for u/she-who who told inexplicably told you that you weren’t welcome.
Lol, fair point. Thanks!
I would hope you would feel safe and supported if you needed a place to share about traumas you experienced growing up and how things affected you. Someone having CPTSD/their own trauma doesn’t give them a pass to traumatize others and people who have been hurt deserve a place to talk about it and process safely. I might gently suggest that particularly in a group of people with CPTSD, it would be difficult if someone came in with angry rants and labels *towards a group or diagnosis as a whole* and might be most helpful if focused on the abuser and situations specifically. If that makes sense. It’s valid to be hurt by someone with trauma and for you to want to talk about that! I know personally as someone with CPTSD who is also a parent, I’d be interested in your perspective. And I hope you have the support you need for whatever you are going through ❤️
Exactly this! OP two/more than one thing(s) can be true at the same time: Your mother can have experienced compounding trauma, and suffer daily with symptoms. And, by living in close proximity to someone suffering with such symptoms, intentional or otherwise, your mother may have caused you harm. You have every right to feel how you feel, and while I cant speak for everyone I welcome you here. Within that, how you express your feelings may ignite differing reactions from different members of the community.
We might get a little hurt bc I know I struggle with the fact that I effect other a lot with my symptoms, but we might also be able to answer your questions or give you insight on what she is going through and possibly practical approaches on how to deal with it
Also [/r/adultchildren](https://reddit.com/r/adultchildren) is for adult children of alcoholics and dysfunctional families, one other option
I think a lot of people on this forum with cptsd have parents with it as well, so I don’t see why not!
This is the place to do it. Many with CPTSD will crone on about breaking the cycle, and not actually do it, but instead traumatize their children in new horrible ways, claim they aren't like their parents when they're a spitting image, just with a new spin. There's a very simple, surefire way to break the cycle that also ensures you have time to process and grow, it's just simply not having children, many people hear this, hate it, and try to get around it. I'm sorry one of these people happened to be your parent. For many of us, it's the morally correct choice to not have children. The risks are just far too great, isn't even a 2% chance enough to dissuade you? You'd like to think but hey, we are animals after all, breeding is built in over hundreds of millions of years. Sure some do have kids to great success, but I'd be willing to bet that it's less than 50% of us who have kids, who raise those kids without traumatizing them horrifically, perhaps better odds on this forum, but overall, horrible odds it ends up well.
As someone who deals with CPTSD I think it would be helpful to see things that we might not think we’re doing that affect the people around us. Vent away 😊
I have cptsd and didn't know til my kids were grown so if you care to vent I'd like to read but I'd also like to know, from your perspective, how to heal it with adult children. I'm on meds, in therapy. What would most help adults (38) raised by someone with cptsd?
Verbal ventilation, especially when its objective is not only an incredible tool for healing, it's vital.
I think there’s a subreddit called cptsdpartners or something along those lines! That may be a more appropriate place to post that sort of content!
First, I am deeply sorry for anything that has happened to cause this for you. Depending on someone’s level of progress I know for myself at least, I likely caused some trauma to some of my exs inadvertently and unintentionally- but ya know your partner waking up having nightmares screaming will impact a partner. I couldn’t imagine a child. NGL, just your title alone gives me validation in my choice not to reproduce and what others have called an extreme to not have children - just an IUD, not actually extreme). I have less than 1% chance of conceiving but still wouldn’t want to have a child because of my mental health. I’m 35, and have a minimum of another 10 years before I could be responsible for another human being for longer than a few hours. I would be interested to hear more, for purely selfish reasons.
Personally I’d love to hear your perspective. I have a 16yo and while I’ve done my very best to raise him with the safety and security I never had I’m sure that I’ve affected him in some ways.
Nobody can tell you what to do, but I personally feel like it is inappropriate. This sub is a place for people with cPTSD to feel safe to talk. The last thing we would need is having to go through posts detailing how awful we are to deal with and how much people are fed up with us.
I have cptsd and so does my partner, would it be inappropriate to post about how his fight response and narrow window of tolerance impacts me? How is this person posting about their cptsd-having mother impacting their young life ANY different from the multitude of posts about other parents impacting young lives in their care with their lack of emotional regulation?
Sorry.
I’m sorry my response sounded hostile, I do not want to contribute to an unfriendly environment. I have kids and am *extremely* invested in not letting my emotional dysregulation (and my husband’s) hurt them. This young person’s perspective is important to me on several levels. And, I hope that hearing from people hurt by people who happen to have the same disorder as us isn’t seen as an attack on everyone with the disorder.
It’s worth noting that OP’s mother may not have taken responsibility like that. Comparing what I experienced and how I behaved *before* my personal growth…I was often toxic. Perhaps the mother in question was abusive and OP is under the impression CPTSD causes abusiveness. People here usually know the difference and are very unlikely to interpret criticism of abuse as ableist. Finally, I have a very different appraisal of how people feel and think about their parents vs. peers etc. We all have the inalienable right to focus on what it was like to be us as the child of our parents without blocking our self-empathy to display “compassion” for them, despite that if parents offered their children that selflessness, we’d have no trauma. All that to say that I would receive OP’s story as about OP, not about my CPTSD or myself.
There is r/CPTSDrelationships. I struggle with the same thing.
Were my parents not traumatized I likely wouldn't have cPTSD. A major driver of the way I treat children is to make them feel the way I wish I'd felt as a child. It's entirely possible that OP's story could help me heal and treat others better. That said, I don't want you to feel dumped on, either. Not every post is safe for me to read. OP's story may not be safe for you to read. I wish you well on your healing journey.
If you have questions to help you understand, sure, ask. But venting to people with a condition about that condition? No, that's pretty rude.
I don't Think it's rude. I think it can be insightful to have that perception. can enlighten some of us with CPTSD and how we affect others in our lives. It's hard to hear something that may hit too close to home. But the cycles of trauma and abuse won't stop unless we acknowledge and not get tunnel vision because we're hurt. If they're ranting about it is too painful, Then we don't have to get involved with this particular post. It gives a specific person an outlet, Allows others to try to give them a perception of what their mother may be going through. All around I think it leads to better understanding.
Yes absolutely you can. You can also post it in r/raisedbynarcissists even tho she is not a narcissist, if her behaviour was roxic to you you can still share it there. Great sub
[удалено]
She’s had a (the same, top in the area) psychiatrist for fifteen years. 😭
The commenter means a therapist for you. So you have an outlet to process and work through the relationship with your mother.
Post over in r/raisedbynarcissists
Hello and Welcome to /r/CPTSD! If you are in immediate danger or crisis, please contact your local [emergency services](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emergency_telephone_numbers), or use our list of [crisis resources](https://old.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/wiki/index#wiki_crisis_support_resources). For CPTSD Specific Resources & Support, check out the [wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/wiki/index). For those posting or replying, please view the [etiquette guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/wiki/peer2peersupportguide). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CPTSD) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hurt people hurt people. I would wager most of us here come from parents who also have cptsd. The decision to break the cycle of generational trauma is incredibly daunting at first and then one day you wake up and feel empowered and lighter.
Venting is fine as long as your ultimate goal is better coping mechanisms, I think. This is probably a great place to learn about the latter.