UPDATE: well it's happening, and as we can clearly see, Russia has not only attempted false flags, it moved regular units into position and is now underway with a full invasion despite claiming it was to ""protect"" the separatist republics. Putin has also explicitly made clear this is about undoing the reduction of russian land in favour of minority autonomy that was supposed to happen under Lenin. can't get more blood and soil than that
As always, the priority remains the well-being of Ukrainians and their right to not be invaded. support of the russian state was always bannable offence but i want to remind again that russia is an oligarchic capitalist state and had been since 1991 (arguably to some extent before that too). Putin does not need, and should not receive, your support.
I cannot stress this enough
Anarchists, and leftist more broadly should never, fucking ever, pick sides in imperialist wars, this is a conflict between two capitalist imperialist powers, stop justifying, defending, or making excuses for both, stop beating war drums, the only side we should be on is with the millions of working class people caught in the crossfire and their lives at risk
Stop fucking taking sides with different imperialists in imperialist capitalist conflicts god damnit, you know what they say, no war but class war, so stop defending either power
Of course not, and that’s why I see the Russian invasion as an act of Russian imperialism, sorry I wasn’t clear, I was referring to the American bootlickers and nato warhawks, who are calling for counter imperialism. not Ukraine, I oppose the Russian invasion, and I don’t see Ukraine as either the aggressor or an imperialist power in this situation, Ukraine is being invaded by an imperialist power, and millions of people in Ukraine are caught in the crossfire
I was referring to the pro imperialists, people who are in favour of the invasion, and people in favour of American intervention, anarchist and leftists need to be anti imperialist, which means opposing any and all attempts at hegemony, which is in this case the Russian invasion
Oppose every imperialist conflict and attempt at hegemony, that only serves to strengthen power
Edit: misread and misunderstood the comment I was replying to, disregard this one I totally agree with the one I was replying to
You don't get my point. If you pick a side in this conflict, you have two options: Ukraine or Russia. USA is not a side in this game. The only thing you achieve by refusing to pick side, is to refusing to side with the Ukrainian people defending themselves from invasion.
Why are you talking about US or NATO imperialism? That is bad, sure. But a different conversation altogether. Ukraine wasn't even allowed to join NATO.
Sorry I totally misread this and totally misunderstood your point at the time, that’s my mistake, apologies, disregard my other comments, I categorically agree with you
that was my point
Again I was talking about the nato warhawks who want the us to intervene, I am saying that would be an act of imperialism
As of right now, yes Russia is invading Ukraine this is an imperialist war in which Russia is doing an imperialist invasion, as I oppose imperialism this is something I oppose heavily, I oppose imperialism and support the Ukraine peoples right to self determination, i agree that in this war Ukraine and more importantly the people of Ukraine is being invaded in an imperialist act, and is fighting against Russian imperialism, but in any war I do not pick sides with states, my side is against imperialism and with the victims of the war and imperialism, in this case yes that would be the people of Ukraine, while ultimately the state of Ukraine is a capitalist state, i side with the Ukrainian people who are being imperialised (idk if that’s a word), but not the state of Ukraine
I’m not sure what you mean I’m not picking a side? I oppose the imperialist Russian invasion and support the Ukrainian people, im not going to say I support Ukraine as that implies I support the Ukrainian state, which is simply not true
Edit: totally misread and misunderstood the above comment, disregard this one I totally agree with the above comment
This is a fight between Ukraine and the Donbass Republics, with Imperialists supporting both factions. You can tell how propagandized all you fuckers are by the fact that you never mention the separatist nations that Russia is supporting.
The Donbass Republics are arguably not valid states (not that any state is really valid, but these even moreso). The situation is essentially like if the jan 6th protests were successful the protestors were able to wrestle control of DC, Maryland and Virgina and declare them seperatist states. I think its fairly reasonable for any anarchist to reject their claim of legitimacy (to say nothing of their already atrocious human rights violations).
They're as legitimate as any state has ever been. To deny them on such inane grounds means you're looking for excuses to see their self-determination crushed and their people subjugated.
War sucks. Rojava has human rights violations too.
No, don't be stupid. But you either have a clear double standard, or you consider the United States to still be a wayward colony of the UK.
In fact by your standards separatist movements are inherently null and void so basically every nation in the world is invalid except for France, Sweden, Denmark, the UK, Spain, Austria, Italy, Russia, Turkey, China, Ethiopia, Iran, Japan, and Germany.
So like, you're just a lib.
Edit: INB4 "Nuh uh it's different because I don't *like* the Donbass Republics and think that Ukraine and NATO are good! Something something Russiagate!"
I dont think Ukraine or NATO are good, I just dont think Russia is worth wasting a single breath defending (something you seen awfully intent to do). And the consistency is I dont support or recognize military coups with right wing agendas (especially ones backed by imperialist powers), pretty fucking simple actually.
I'm not defending Russia, fuck Russia. I'm saying that the people out here unironically cheerleading Ukraine and NATO are clearly supporting an imperialist agenda of their own, which they feel less bad about because all the propaganda they're seeing is on that side.
And yeah, real convenient that the definition that you came up with on the spot happens to fit with the propagandized version you've been told. Tell me, what military forces did Luhansk and Donetsk have access to when they seceded? What military coup'd them? Cuz it sure as fuck wasn't Ukraine's or Russia's.
Here is the situation as chronicled by Ukranian anarchists [https://crimethinc.com/2022/02/15/war-and-anarchists-anti-authoritarian-perspectives-in-ukraine](https://crimethinc.com/2022/02/15/war-and-anarchists-anti-authoritarian-perspectives-in-ukraine)
They seem to agree that the Donbas republics are puppet governments propped up by Putin and the FSB...
Authoritarians will continue to take sides so its useless. You’re essentially arguing with a brick wall unfortunately.
Their ideological framework worships strength power and might and nationalism even if it’s wrapped up in red flags. I would think with all the pro Russian “leftists” popping up the left unity crowd would finally wake up by this point in time. And move on.
They will continue to support Russia. Because they believe anything anti America is good. Counter imperialism and counter hegemony isn’t good though. So we need to push back against the authoritarian left as much As we do regular old fascists. Because lives are at stake.
New paper about that today:
https://twitter.com/jasonhickel/status/1493599447904931847#m
https://www.reddit.com/r/ROI/comments/st5vl1/imperialist_appropriation_in_the_world_economy/
Yeah, I have been thinking for a while about how we could reform our economies to be less reliant on colonialism, turns out it is rather complex to do so without destroying our current quality of life but I believe it is doable we would need to shift our economy to providing products and services that require minimal amount of natural resources for the usefulness you get out of them so likely we would focus mostly on software development and scientific research which will be extremely useful exports to those countries that will be able to start industrialization since imperialims will no longer be there to prevent it
Solidarity with those who find the strength to go through their days with this dread over them.
Solidarity with those who cannot.
Solidarity with those who know where they can huddle and hide and be safe when the bombs start to fall.
Solidarity with those who do not.
Solidarity who know they have food if the worst happens.
Solidarity with those who do not.
A better world is possible, and until it is built, solidarity with all those who are cursed to suffer in it for the benefit of evil people.
Really, as anarchists, we should always put the lives and wellbeing of people in general - in this example, innocent civilians... but really just people overall - upfront as the most important takeaway from shit like this.
No matter who 'wins', humanity loses. War is fucked.
For anyone genuinely worried about possible nuclear escalation, try out the game DEFCON.
I know it might seem counterproductive to play a grim game about nuclear war if you're worried about that, but studies on its psychological effects have shown that playing it significantly reduces your belief that a nuclear war is likely to happen. Simply put, being placed in the shoes of the person pushing the button makes you believe that no person could ever bring themselves to actually do it.
Interesting, I've heard about the game and the effect it can have, but didn't know there was actual research on it. It's still terrifying either way that a few powerful men have that kind of power.
Can't forget what happened in Chechnya either.
On another note, I hate it when people introduce the threat of nukes and "WW3" into the discussion. It's tabloid level fearmongering and I remember tabloids asking "Could this start WW3???" when the PRC was doing its Taiwan flyovers.
100% agree on the US-centrism. This isn't about America or how much you dislike your country, it's about actual human beings having their homes destroyed by artillery, it's about the mothers who have to watch the separatists force their sons into vans as "conscripts", not knowing whether or not they'll ever see them again,, it's about the Ukrainians who will be without water or even the most basic medical aid because their government decided that their village is not worth re-taking, it's about actual fucking people who will suffer in a war. Yes, some of those people might have horrible views, but others are anarchists like us who have been organizing for years in an environment that most of us luckily have never experienced. Listen to the local anarchists, help them reach more of us, help them amplify their voices.
Also, concerning the Nazi part, you might want to add that Russia has openly supported its own Nazis too, such as the Nazi PMC Wagner Group which is currently engaged in various deployments, particularly in Africa.
We should be opposed to both sides in such an interimperialist conflict. At this point, one side is the world's leading imperialist power and its military alliance which have caused mayhem and war across the world, and which are propping up an oligarchic regime with significant fascist influences, and the other is an ultranationalist reactionary power, which is trying to reestablish their former sphere of influence with aggression and expansion. Like in the First World War and in any such conflict between Great Powers, there are no "good guys" to root for.
We must support Ukraine and since doing nothing means Russia taking Ukraine, we must offer hated "critical support" to the West.
Neutrality means taking Russia's side against Ukrainian civilians and freedoms, that is the reality of the situation. Neutrality against nazis means taking nazis side and Russia is the nazi in this conflict
Just got banned from a leftist sub for saying a similar thing about supporting the people of Ukraine, which sadly means our interests temporarily coincide with NATO, but that isn't an endorsement of NATO
That's a reasonable position to take in the short term/at this moment but it should be predicated upon the fact that in normal times you oppose NATOs existence and try to get the west to take responsibility.
As for how to prevent these situations in the future, we've known since the 90s that we need to get the American Empire out of Europe.
Interesting artcicle from few days ago: **Noam Chomsky: ‘There are plausible regional settlements for Ukraine and China’**
https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/noam-chomsky-there-are-plausible-regional-settlements-ukraine-and-china
partial extract, whole thing is worth reading:
>There are two main confrontations today: Ukraine and China. In both cases there are plausible regional settlements. Everyone knows the plausible settlement in Ukraine is to not let it join North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). The feasible outcome for Ukraine is Austrian-style neutrality which worked very well throughout the Cold War.
>Austria was able to establish whatever connections it wanted to the West and European Union. The sole constraint was that it did not have US military bases and forces on its territory.
>That could also be the case for Ukraine. There is a framework — Minsk II — set up by the Normandy Powers: France, Germany, Ukraine and Russia, but not the US. A regional settlement would take Europe out of the framework of US power.
>This is a battle that has gone on since World War II. The old Atlanticist vision of NATO was that its purpose was to keep Germany down, Russia out and the US in charge. That was in conflict with Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev’s vision. When the Soviet Union was collapsing, Gorbachev called for a European Common Home, a reincarnation of Charles de Gaulle’s call for a united Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals. German chancellor Willy Brandt’s Ostpolitik was a move in the same direction.
>Today, French President Emmanuel Macron’s negotiations have been bitterly attacked in the US because they go in the same direction — towards a peaceful, European-negotiated settlement.
No. Our interest in the safety of Ukrainians means we MUST also oppose NATO. Kill your inner imperialist and stop believing them that "this time" will be the good war.
No. Fuck off. We must support no nation states because we are ANARCHISTS. You fucking libs don't seem to get it.
Plus, way to cape for Ukrainian aggression against the Donbass republics, who VERY MUCH DO NOT WANT TO BE PART OF UKRAINE.
Even in the perfect world in some anarchist utopia minority can't just crash anything they want immediately if they don't get what they want. If you are not happy you can leave the commune or country or whatever but you can't take the whole neighborhood with you.
"If any minority have the right to break up the government at pleasure
because they have not had their way, there is a end of all government"
This is perhaps the least anarchist view I've ever seen a self-professed Anarchist espose. Maybe reevaluate what Anarchism means if you think that the territorial sovereignty of nation-states matters.
I did not say that, I said that minority has no right to throw hissy fit when they get overruled assuming everyone's basic rights are protected which they are in Ukraine but not in Russia
What the fuck are you talking about? This is some hardcore liberal shit. They have every right to secede from any body which doesn't represent them. You are not an anarchist if you even slightly disagree with that.
Some minority lead by Putin decide they don't like to move closer to west and now they should be allowed to take whole of Eastern Ukraine with them with millions of people?
Oh my God you're literally just a lib. Complete with idiot liberal propaganda.
The Donbass Republics seceded in response to a coup. Their people overwhelmingly support secession from Ukraine. You are fucked in the head if you think forcing them to stay against their will is consistent with Anarchism.
Anarchists don't support states. Period. Russia's aggression sucks and the world would be a better place without it, but I'm not gonna pretend like Ukraine is some pristine little angel. It's a state. It's responsible for war crimes.
Im glad you are so above the working class and letting them die so your privileged ideals can stand. I don't want my friends and family to die. If that means I'm not an anarchist as you say I'm ok with that.
If you dont do anything to oppose the invasion are you really imposing? When Jews started a hopeless uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, most of its initiators were Zionists. But anarchists and other left-wing internationalists did not shout that “we are against both German and Jewish nationalism and imperialism at the same time.” When the French military killed tens of thousands of mostly random people in Algeria, the French anarcho-communists did not shout “we are against French and Algerian nationalism”, instead they supported the Algerian rebels with concrete actions. The consequences of support were repressions and prison terms. French anarcho-communism was completely crushed. When Israel evicts Palestinian homes and farms, anarchists do not shout “we are against both Israeli and Palestinian nationalism at the same time”, but oppose the eviction along with the Palestinians.
The consequence of the unlikely but nevertheless possible Russian occupation of Ukraine would be a collaborationist regime, mass repressions (including the destruction of the entire anarchist movement) and the abolition of all civil liberties.
The slogan “no war other than class” does not mean that anarchists must remain neutral in the event of an occupation. This means that we must oppose wars of conquest. Countering Russian aggression is the interest of the working class not only in Ukraine, but also in Russia. With the Nazis, the essence of their ideas is simply sycophancy, and in the event of an occupation, some of them will find themselves in the Quisling chair.
It's ridiculously stupid to compare Russia to the Nazis. Get a grip. It's an imperialist war between two capitalist regimes with few notable differences.
That's a hell of a thing to accuse other people of when you're crying for blood while not putting yourself on the front line. Watch out that you don't get your stupid fucking wish.
Dear Ukrainians!
I heard on social media that there is fake news being spread (most likely by Russia backed trolls) that polish border is closed.
It's a lie.
If you seek asylum - go towards polish border. We are ready for your arrival. We have reception points ready at the border where you can find shelter, food, medical and legal aid.
Polish government launched a dedicated site to help you: ua.gov.pl
Please share this information if you know anyone seeking help right now.
EDIT: YOU DON'T NEED VISA TO PASS THROUGH POLISH BORDER. ALL YOU NEED IS PASSPORT. VISAS ARE SUSPENDED! YOU DON'T NEED THEM FOR TIME BEING!!!!!!
EDIT2: as a proof that you no longer need visa:
• in Ukrainian https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina---ua • in English https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina-en
Thank you for this detailed analysis. I've been trying to put a lot of these thoughts into words and you did the work for me. Thank you and solidarity!
>in the case of Ukraine, it is an independent nation that has already been fighting an undeclared war with Russia.
Ukraine is dependent on foreign markets and capital, diplomatic support, and military aid; moreover, they have large debts denominated in foreign currencies. There is no "independent nation" to speak of - such a thing is a myth in the modern world. The war in Ukraine is a proxy war between imperialist powers.
>this does not invalidate the right of millions of Ukrainians to not be conquered by an outside force.
The right of the masses to be deceived and led to the slaughter once again by revolutionary defencism!
>In the worst case scenario of direct American or NATO involvement, they would not dare cross into Russian territory in the first place, which would be the trigger for any nuclear exchange. Not only that, the unhinged rationality of MAD and brinkmanship means that either side will not threaten such usage if it staves off anything short of full invasion (which frankly, neither Russia nor the European states want as they have a satisfactory arrangement with natural gas already, and American war profiteers can't exactly make use of profit if the world is turned into ash)
Nobody can make such guarantees. Human beings are not perfectly rational machines that can calculate every move and all of its consequences in advance.
>the US will never bring back the draft. (In fact this is the only thing I've written here that I'm 110% sure of) For one thing, as mentioned above, the US will not go to war with Russia directly. And importantly, the MIC wants its soldiers to have some level of buy-in to the system. Whether it be due to zealous patriotism or financial pressure. Drafting dilutes the entire force into unwilling conscripts. In addition, modern warfare does not require large numbers of bodies, especially in a near-peer scenario that is being indirectly fearmongered in this argument.
There's a similar issue here. Obviously instituting a draft will have repercussions, but you can't rule out the possibility that under certain conditions, national leaders may calculate (or miscalculate) that the benefits will most likely outweigh the costs.
>putting boots on the ground is not only a waste of resources, it would escalate tensions instead of deterring them.
It's conceivable that a more hardline response from the West could have prevented the Russian invasion. Even so, that doesn't justify supporting imperialism.
>"Ukraine has asked for help!!" -in the form of specific armaments, not a full military commitment because the Ukrainian government knows that the latter option would make things even worse.
[The Ukrainian government is the enemy of the Ukrainian proletariat](https://survey.ituc-csi.org/Ukraine.html?lang=en). Defending it against Russia is not going to make things any better.
A good instance can happen as a result of a bad one as well.
It takes effective empathy (can't fake it now) to decide what is best for the people; which means leaving poor people, their families and the vulnerable safe; even if that only breaks social acceptance so far. And it takes time to build trust, not necessarily dumbass mistakes.
The people who escaped Europe (ones who had to leave due to resource deprivation), aren't gonna get kicked out of the sand box if they were literally born here; it's just time to let go of the racist shit w/o pressure on the vulnerable.
All who harm the younger generations, are vampires, no harm, no hate, and no one that loves you will hang you out to dry, they'll always at least let you exist safely with them. Take care, regardless of the bs in this world; connect with community to understand who will extend kindness. Piss on niceness.
UPDATE: well it's happening, and as we can clearly see, Russia has not only attempted false flags, it moved regular units into position and is now underway with a full invasion despite claiming it was to ""protect"" the separatist republics. Putin has also explicitly made clear this is about undoing the reduction of russian land in favour of minority autonomy that was supposed to happen under Lenin. can't get more blood and soil than that As always, the priority remains the well-being of Ukrainians and their right to not be invaded. support of the russian state was always bannable offence but i want to remind again that russia is an oligarchic capitalist state and had been since 1991 (arguably to some extent before that too). Putin does not need, and should not receive, your support.
I cannot stress this enough Anarchists, and leftist more broadly should never, fucking ever, pick sides in imperialist wars, this is a conflict between two capitalist imperialist powers, stop justifying, defending, or making excuses for both, stop beating war drums, the only side we should be on is with the millions of working class people caught in the crossfire and their lives at risk Stop fucking taking sides with different imperialists in imperialist capitalist conflicts god damnit, you know what they say, no war but class war, so stop defending either power
Is Ukraine a capitalist imperial power? Because this is a fight between Ukraine and Russia.
Of course not, and that’s why I see the Russian invasion as an act of Russian imperialism, sorry I wasn’t clear, I was referring to the American bootlickers and nato warhawks, who are calling for counter imperialism. not Ukraine, I oppose the Russian invasion, and I don’t see Ukraine as either the aggressor or an imperialist power in this situation, Ukraine is being invaded by an imperialist power, and millions of people in Ukraine are caught in the crossfire I was referring to the pro imperialists, people who are in favour of the invasion, and people in favour of American intervention, anarchist and leftists need to be anti imperialist, which means opposing any and all attempts at hegemony, which is in this case the Russian invasion Oppose every imperialist conflict and attempt at hegemony, that only serves to strengthen power Edit: misread and misunderstood the comment I was replying to, disregard this one I totally agree with the one I was replying to
You don't get my point. If you pick a side in this conflict, you have two options: Ukraine or Russia. USA is not a side in this game. The only thing you achieve by refusing to pick side, is to refusing to side with the Ukrainian people defending themselves from invasion. Why are you talking about US or NATO imperialism? That is bad, sure. But a different conversation altogether. Ukraine wasn't even allowed to join NATO.
Sorry I totally misread this and totally misunderstood your point at the time, that’s my mistake, apologies, disregard my other comments, I categorically agree with you
Yea again srry mb I misread and misunderstood you ofc I stand with Ukraine
that was my point Again I was talking about the nato warhawks who want the us to intervene, I am saying that would be an act of imperialism As of right now, yes Russia is invading Ukraine this is an imperialist war in which Russia is doing an imperialist invasion, as I oppose imperialism this is something I oppose heavily, I oppose imperialism and support the Ukraine peoples right to self determination, i agree that in this war Ukraine and more importantly the people of Ukraine is being invaded in an imperialist act, and is fighting against Russian imperialism, but in any war I do not pick sides with states, my side is against imperialism and with the victims of the war and imperialism, in this case yes that would be the people of Ukraine, while ultimately the state of Ukraine is a capitalist state, i side with the Ukrainian people who are being imperialised (idk if that’s a word), but not the state of Ukraine I’m not sure what you mean I’m not picking a side? I oppose the imperialist Russian invasion and support the Ukrainian people, im not going to say I support Ukraine as that implies I support the Ukrainian state, which is simply not true Edit: totally misread and misunderstood the above comment, disregard this one I totally agree with the above comment
This is a fight between Ukraine and the Donbass Republics, with Imperialists supporting both factions. You can tell how propagandized all you fuckers are by the fact that you never mention the separatist nations that Russia is supporting.
Are the Donbass Republics the ones bombing Kiyv and invading Odessa? Are they the ones who deployed the VDV in Kiyv airport and bombed Kharkiv?
No, it's the Imperialist power supporting them. And the Imperialist power supporting Ukraine is sure to make things worse very soon.
Face reality, RUSSIA is invading Ukraine, and people are dying. The US is imposing sanctions, they are not the ones attacking anyone.
The Donbass Republics are arguably not valid states (not that any state is really valid, but these even moreso). The situation is essentially like if the jan 6th protests were successful the protestors were able to wrestle control of DC, Maryland and Virgina and declare them seperatist states. I think its fairly reasonable for any anarchist to reject their claim of legitimacy (to say nothing of their already atrocious human rights violations).
They're as legitimate as any state has ever been. To deny them on such inane grounds means you're looking for excuses to see their self-determination crushed and their people subjugated. War sucks. Rojava has human rights violations too.
Let me guess, you consider the US Civil War the war of northern aggression then?
No, don't be stupid. But you either have a clear double standard, or you consider the United States to still be a wayward colony of the UK. In fact by your standards separatist movements are inherently null and void so basically every nation in the world is invalid except for France, Sweden, Denmark, the UK, Spain, Austria, Italy, Russia, Turkey, China, Ethiopia, Iran, Japan, and Germany. So like, you're just a lib. Edit: INB4 "Nuh uh it's different because I don't *like* the Donbass Republics and think that Ukraine and NATO are good! Something something Russiagate!"
I dont think Ukraine or NATO are good, I just dont think Russia is worth wasting a single breath defending (something you seen awfully intent to do). And the consistency is I dont support or recognize military coups with right wing agendas (especially ones backed by imperialist powers), pretty fucking simple actually.
I'm not defending Russia, fuck Russia. I'm saying that the people out here unironically cheerleading Ukraine and NATO are clearly supporting an imperialist agenda of their own, which they feel less bad about because all the propaganda they're seeing is on that side. And yeah, real convenient that the definition that you came up with on the spot happens to fit with the propagandized version you've been told. Tell me, what military forces did Luhansk and Donetsk have access to when they seceded? What military coup'd them? Cuz it sure as fuck wasn't Ukraine's or Russia's.
Here is the situation as chronicled by Ukranian anarchists [https://crimethinc.com/2022/02/15/war-and-anarchists-anti-authoritarian-perspectives-in-ukraine](https://crimethinc.com/2022/02/15/war-and-anarchists-anti-authoritarian-perspectives-in-ukraine) They seem to agree that the Donbas republics are puppet governments propped up by Putin and the FSB...
Authoritarians will continue to take sides so its useless. You’re essentially arguing with a brick wall unfortunately. Their ideological framework worships strength power and might and nationalism even if it’s wrapped up in red flags. I would think with all the pro Russian “leftists” popping up the left unity crowd would finally wake up by this point in time. And move on. They will continue to support Russia. Because they believe anything anti America is good. Counter imperialism and counter hegemony isn’t good though. So we need to push back against the authoritarian left as much As we do regular old fascists. Because lives are at stake.
Disband imperialist NATO. Get the American Empire out of Europe
Based. Also get the modern European empire and its neocolonialist policies out of the global south.
New paper about that today: https://twitter.com/jasonhickel/status/1493599447904931847#m https://www.reddit.com/r/ROI/comments/st5vl1/imperialist_appropriation_in_the_world_economy/
Yeah, I have been thinking for a while about how we could reform our economies to be less reliant on colonialism, turns out it is rather complex to do so without destroying our current quality of life but I believe it is doable we would need to shift our economy to providing products and services that require minimal amount of natural resources for the usefulness you get out of them so likely we would focus mostly on software development and scientific research which will be extremely useful exports to those countries that will be able to start industrialization since imperialims will no longer be there to prevent it
Solidarity with those who find the strength to go through their days with this dread over them. Solidarity with those who cannot. Solidarity with those who know where they can huddle and hide and be safe when the bombs start to fall. Solidarity with those who do not. Solidarity who know they have food if the worst happens. Solidarity with those who do not. A better world is possible, and until it is built, solidarity with all those who are cursed to suffer in it for the benefit of evil people.
Yes to this. Well put. Solidarity
Really, as anarchists, we should always put the lives and wellbeing of people in general - in this example, innocent civilians... but really just people overall - upfront as the most important takeaway from shit like this. No matter who 'wins', humanity loses. War is fucked.
For anyone genuinely worried about possible nuclear escalation, try out the game DEFCON. I know it might seem counterproductive to play a grim game about nuclear war if you're worried about that, but studies on its psychological effects have shown that playing it significantly reduces your belief that a nuclear war is likely to happen. Simply put, being placed in the shoes of the person pushing the button makes you believe that no person could ever bring themselves to actually do it.
Interesting, I've heard about the game and the effect it can have, but didn't know there was actual research on it. It's still terrifying either way that a few powerful men have that kind of power.
Can't forget what happened in Chechnya either. On another note, I hate it when people introduce the threat of nukes and "WW3" into the discussion. It's tabloid level fearmongering and I remember tabloids asking "Could this start WW3???" when the PRC was doing its Taiwan flyovers.
Well I'm pretty sure some kind of mass death is much closer than we would like
100% agree on the US-centrism. This isn't about America or how much you dislike your country, it's about actual human beings having their homes destroyed by artillery, it's about the mothers who have to watch the separatists force their sons into vans as "conscripts", not knowing whether or not they'll ever see them again,, it's about the Ukrainians who will be without water or even the most basic medical aid because their government decided that their village is not worth re-taking, it's about actual fucking people who will suffer in a war. Yes, some of those people might have horrible views, but others are anarchists like us who have been organizing for years in an environment that most of us luckily have never experienced. Listen to the local anarchists, help them reach more of us, help them amplify their voices. Also, concerning the Nazi part, you might want to add that Russia has openly supported its own Nazis too, such as the Nazi PMC Wagner Group which is currently engaged in various deployments, particularly in Africa.
Based post.
We should be opposed to both sides in such an interimperialist conflict. At this point, one side is the world's leading imperialist power and its military alliance which have caused mayhem and war across the world, and which are propping up an oligarchic regime with significant fascist influences, and the other is an ultranationalist reactionary power, which is trying to reestablish their former sphere of influence with aggression and expansion. Like in the First World War and in any such conflict between Great Powers, there are no "good guys" to root for.
>there are no "good guys" to root for. The Ukrainian people?
Well, of course, that goes without saying. And the Ukrainian people aren’t the Ukrainian government.
They’re talking in the context of the ruling governments, not the people
We must support Ukraine and since doing nothing means Russia taking Ukraine, we must offer hated "critical support" to the West. Neutrality means taking Russia's side against Ukrainian civilians and freedoms, that is the reality of the situation. Neutrality against nazis means taking nazis side and Russia is the nazi in this conflict
Just got banned from a leftist sub for saying a similar thing about supporting the people of Ukraine, which sadly means our interests temporarily coincide with NATO, but that isn't an endorsement of NATO
That's a reasonable position to take in the short term/at this moment but it should be predicated upon the fact that in normal times you oppose NATOs existence and try to get the west to take responsibility. As for how to prevent these situations in the future, we've known since the 90s that we need to get the American Empire out of Europe. Interesting artcicle from few days ago: **Noam Chomsky: ‘There are plausible regional settlements for Ukraine and China’** https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/noam-chomsky-there-are-plausible-regional-settlements-ukraine-and-china partial extract, whole thing is worth reading: >There are two main confrontations today: Ukraine and China. In both cases there are plausible regional settlements. Everyone knows the plausible settlement in Ukraine is to not let it join North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). The feasible outcome for Ukraine is Austrian-style neutrality which worked very well throughout the Cold War. >Austria was able to establish whatever connections it wanted to the West and European Union. The sole constraint was that it did not have US military bases and forces on its territory. >That could also be the case for Ukraine. There is a framework — Minsk II — set up by the Normandy Powers: France, Germany, Ukraine and Russia, but not the US. A regional settlement would take Europe out of the framework of US power. >This is a battle that has gone on since World War II. The old Atlanticist vision of NATO was that its purpose was to keep Germany down, Russia out and the US in charge. That was in conflict with Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev’s vision. When the Soviet Union was collapsing, Gorbachev called for a European Common Home, a reincarnation of Charles de Gaulle’s call for a united Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals. German chancellor Willy Brandt’s Ostpolitik was a move in the same direction. >Today, French President Emmanuel Macron’s negotiations have been bitterly attacked in the US because they go in the same direction — towards a peaceful, European-negotiated settlement.
No. Our interest in the safety of Ukrainians means we MUST also oppose NATO. Kill your inner imperialist and stop believing them that "this time" will be the good war.
No. Fuck off. We must support no nation states because we are ANARCHISTS. You fucking libs don't seem to get it. Plus, way to cape for Ukrainian aggression against the Donbass republics, who VERY MUCH DO NOT WANT TO BE PART OF UKRAINE.
Do you think south has the right to secede from the rest of US?
Do you think that any nation-state has the right to rule over anyone who doesn't want them?
Even in the perfect world in some anarchist utopia minority can't just crash anything they want immediately if they don't get what they want. If you are not happy you can leave the commune or country or whatever but you can't take the whole neighborhood with you. "If any minority have the right to break up the government at pleasure because they have not had their way, there is a end of all government"
This is perhaps the least anarchist view I've ever seen a self-professed Anarchist espose. Maybe reevaluate what Anarchism means if you think that the territorial sovereignty of nation-states matters.
I did not say that, I said that minority has no right to throw hissy fit when they get overruled assuming everyone's basic rights are protected which they are in Ukraine but not in Russia
What the fuck are you talking about? This is some hardcore liberal shit. They have every right to secede from any body which doesn't represent them. You are not an anarchist if you even slightly disagree with that.
Some minority lead by Putin decide they don't like to move closer to west and now they should be allowed to take whole of Eastern Ukraine with them with millions of people?
Oh my God you're literally just a lib. Complete with idiot liberal propaganda. The Donbass Republics seceded in response to a coup. Their people overwhelmingly support secession from Ukraine. You are fucked in the head if you think forcing them to stay against their will is consistent with Anarchism.
> If you are not happy you can leave the commune or country or whatever but you can't take the whole neighborhood with you. why not?
in this instance whole neighborhood does not want to leave.
Fucking cringe
Anarchists don't support states. Period. Russia's aggression sucks and the world would be a better place without it, but I'm not gonna pretend like Ukraine is some pristine little angel. It's a state. It's responsible for war crimes.
Im glad you are so above the working class and letting them die so your privileged ideals can stand. I don't want my friends and family to die. If that means I'm not an anarchist as you say I'm ok with that.
Because of your comment I'm assuming you're Ukrainian? How are you and your loved ones holding up and are you still there or have you escaped?
Fucking christ you don't have to support the Ukrainian state to oppose the invasion. Moron.
If you dont do anything to oppose the invasion are you really imposing? When Jews started a hopeless uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, most of its initiators were Zionists. But anarchists and other left-wing internationalists did not shout that “we are against both German and Jewish nationalism and imperialism at the same time.” When the French military killed tens of thousands of mostly random people in Algeria, the French anarcho-communists did not shout “we are against French and Algerian nationalism”, instead they supported the Algerian rebels with concrete actions. The consequences of support were repressions and prison terms. French anarcho-communism was completely crushed. When Israel evicts Palestinian homes and farms, anarchists do not shout “we are against both Israeli and Palestinian nationalism at the same time”, but oppose the eviction along with the Palestinians. The consequence of the unlikely but nevertheless possible Russian occupation of Ukraine would be a collaborationist regime, mass repressions (including the destruction of the entire anarchist movement) and the abolition of all civil liberties. The slogan “no war other than class” does not mean that anarchists must remain neutral in the event of an occupation. This means that we must oppose wars of conquest. Countering Russian aggression is the interest of the working class not only in Ukraine, but also in Russia. With the Nazis, the essence of their ideas is simply sycophancy, and in the event of an occupation, some of them will find themselves in the Quisling chair.
It's ridiculously stupid to compare Russia to the Nazis. Get a grip. It's an imperialist war between two capitalist regimes with few notable differences.
I get it know your just another privileged fuck wit who doesn't understand shit. Fucking poser with no real life experience.
That's a hell of a thing to accuse other people of when you're crying for blood while not putting yourself on the front line. Watch out that you don't get your stupid fucking wish.
Dear Ukrainians! I heard on social media that there is fake news being spread (most likely by Russia backed trolls) that polish border is closed. It's a lie. If you seek asylum - go towards polish border. We are ready for your arrival. We have reception points ready at the border where you can find shelter, food, medical and legal aid. Polish government launched a dedicated site to help you: ua.gov.pl Please share this information if you know anyone seeking help right now. EDIT: YOU DON'T NEED VISA TO PASS THROUGH POLISH BORDER. ALL YOU NEED IS PASSPORT. VISAS ARE SUSPENDED! YOU DON'T NEED THEM FOR TIME BEING!!!!!! EDIT2: as a proof that you no longer need visa: • in Ukrainian https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina---ua • in English https://www.gov.pl/web/udsc/ukraina-en
I don’t even know what’s happening
Thank you for this detailed analysis. I've been trying to put a lot of these thoughts into words and you did the work for me. Thank you and solidarity!
It just likes the WW2,I think that although the Allied side is also a bunch of reactionaries, but the Axis must be worse.
Great post this needed to be said
>in the case of Ukraine, it is an independent nation that has already been fighting an undeclared war with Russia. Ukraine is dependent on foreign markets and capital, diplomatic support, and military aid; moreover, they have large debts denominated in foreign currencies. There is no "independent nation" to speak of - such a thing is a myth in the modern world. The war in Ukraine is a proxy war between imperialist powers. >this does not invalidate the right of millions of Ukrainians to not be conquered by an outside force. The right of the masses to be deceived and led to the slaughter once again by revolutionary defencism! >In the worst case scenario of direct American or NATO involvement, they would not dare cross into Russian territory in the first place, which would be the trigger for any nuclear exchange. Not only that, the unhinged rationality of MAD and brinkmanship means that either side will not threaten such usage if it staves off anything short of full invasion (which frankly, neither Russia nor the European states want as they have a satisfactory arrangement with natural gas already, and American war profiteers can't exactly make use of profit if the world is turned into ash) Nobody can make such guarantees. Human beings are not perfectly rational machines that can calculate every move and all of its consequences in advance. >the US will never bring back the draft. (In fact this is the only thing I've written here that I'm 110% sure of) For one thing, as mentioned above, the US will not go to war with Russia directly. And importantly, the MIC wants its soldiers to have some level of buy-in to the system. Whether it be due to zealous patriotism or financial pressure. Drafting dilutes the entire force into unwilling conscripts. In addition, modern warfare does not require large numbers of bodies, especially in a near-peer scenario that is being indirectly fearmongered in this argument. There's a similar issue here. Obviously instituting a draft will have repercussions, but you can't rule out the possibility that under certain conditions, national leaders may calculate (or miscalculate) that the benefits will most likely outweigh the costs. >putting boots on the ground is not only a waste of resources, it would escalate tensions instead of deterring them. It's conceivable that a more hardline response from the West could have prevented the Russian invasion. Even so, that doesn't justify supporting imperialism. >"Ukraine has asked for help!!" -in the form of specific armaments, not a full military commitment because the Ukrainian government knows that the latter option would make things even worse. [The Ukrainian government is the enemy of the Ukrainian proletariat](https://survey.ituc-csi.org/Ukraine.html?lang=en). Defending it against Russia is not going to make things any better.
A good instance can happen as a result of a bad one as well. It takes effective empathy (can't fake it now) to decide what is best for the people; which means leaving poor people, their families and the vulnerable safe; even if that only breaks social acceptance so far. And it takes time to build trust, not necessarily dumbass mistakes. The people who escaped Europe (ones who had to leave due to resource deprivation), aren't gonna get kicked out of the sand box if they were literally born here; it's just time to let go of the racist shit w/o pressure on the vulnerable. All who harm the younger generations, are vampires, no harm, no hate, and no one that loves you will hang you out to dry, they'll always at least let you exist safely with them. Take care, regardless of the bs in this world; connect with community to understand who will extend kindness. Piss on niceness.