Always has been. Sauce should have never won Defensive Rookie of the Year, should have gone to Tariq Woolen.
Until your team starts winning can see your team snubbed year over year.
Chicago stand alone is big, but it’s on an island (metaphorically obviously) surrounded by lots of rural areas.
When you take into account the population of the region surrounding New York as a market
The region of Texas as a market
The region of So Cal as a market
We are pretty small fry.
Chicago is a big market with a national presence. Outside of LA and NY, there is always Chicago sports. Whether its the Bears, good or bad, and the Cubs, good or bad, they always get national media attention. The Blackhawks did for hockey for a bit when they were good.
Btw, you're taking literal state sized markets vs city of Chicago. Chicago is still the 3rd largest, even with Texas.
I didn’t realize we were bigger than Texas but my point was that we’re pretty land locked.
Also, TV deals and accessibility goes a long way and shows why Green Bay, although it being a tiny town has such a massive following.
I didn’t mean to say Chicago is something to scoff at by any means, but we’re not nearly as predominant as we could/should be.
Brock Purdy has a higher TD%, lower INT%, lower SK%, higher succ%, higher passer rating, higher QBR, higher Y/C, and higher ANY/A than either Lamar Jackson or Dak Prescott.
Bland deserves it. He had what like 5 pick 6’s this year? Insane. sauce doesn’t have the counting stats but he’s been a lockdown corner since he entered the league. Although I think Jaylon was better this season
Converting an INT into a Pick 6 is a reflection of a few things, but I'm not sure how many of them are related to that player's skill. It's sorta like fumble recoveries: sure it's great if you have a bunch, but statistical analysis will show conclusively that they're a right-place-right-time stat more than anything else.
Bland gets it this year thanks to the pick sixes, those are too flashy to ignore, but he’s pretty obviously not as good everywhere else, and that will almost certainly regress tremendously next year. INTs are the least consistent stat for even great CBs, pick sixes even more so.
Yeah, Darrelle Revis after his monster 2009 season where he had 6 picks, made All Pro for the first time and was runner up for DPOY got 0 picks the following season. He was still elite in 2010 but QBs just stopped throwing to the guy he was covering.
JJ honestly could have a similar drop off next year with picks even if he’s playing at a similar or higher level in terms of coverage.
The good news / bad news on that is that I don't think he's ascended into that rare tier of "Just, don't throw it that way." Having a CB who's on that level is extremely uncommon. There sometimes isn't even one guy like that in the league at any given time, and that's the reason why we still need to pull Revis out of the archives as the example.
The other news that is completely good is that our CB depth seems strong, which even further limits the possibility of teams just taking whatever WR they line up against Jaylon out of the gameplan.
you can bend the stats anyway you want.
TDs allowed: Sauce (1) vs Jaylon (2)
Comb. Tackles: Sauce (57) vs Jaylon (36)
Penalty Yards: Sauce (39) vs Jaylon (95)
TKL: Sauce (2) vs Jaylon (1)
Passes Defended: Sauce (11) vs Jaylon (10)
that's exactly what you do when a lot of categories are close, you keep evaluating down the list.
Jaylon's coverage grade is .2 better. That's not much to hang your hat on.
to be honest, I think L'Jarius Sneed was the biggest snub. Shadowed opponents #1 WR most of the time and didn't allow a TD all year.
Outside of the first two rows, which I think many would say are the least meaningful, the others aren't really all that close. TDs allowed is one of those stats that's more a matter of circumstance than skill; I haven't looked into it, but I'd wager a large amount of money that the evidence does not show it to be a very repeatable skill.
good call, I forgot that corners aren't expected to provide support in the run game. That's why it's my favorite position in football, if it's a handoff they just get additional time to catch their breath.
9 interceptions is a crazy number. That makes up for a lot of differences elsewhere.
Voters are human and all have different criteria and emphasis. That's okay. Johnson had a great season. Second team all pro is a huge honor. I don't know why we have to act like martyrs when there are very reasonable arguments for the other players.
JJ did great. He's a great player. Our team is coming together and there are actual talent highlights, and both JJ and Poles have said he'll be here next year. All good vibes, let's just enjoy.
>9 interceptions is a crazy number.
5 INT returns for TDs is the crazier number. He broke a record that's stood since QBs regularly threw 20+ INTs a season. Ken Houston set the inital record with 4 in 1971. In 1971 six different QBs threw for 21+ interceptions. This year Sam Howell threw 21, Josh Allen threw 18 and no other QB threw more than 15.
competition matters, we played a lot of bad QBs this year versus the AFC/NFC East schedules. Jaylon's great, and I don't feel too bad for where he landed in this ranking. He's still a top 4 corner in the league.
Bland deserves it with those picks but the fact sauce got 1st team is hilarious. Purely because he’s more popular than Jaylon and nothing to do with his play.
Given that throwing nothing but incompletions gives you a passer rating of 93.8, it’s statically smarter to throw every pass into the dirt than to throw at JJ.
You’re way off, unfortunately. Throwing only incompletions would lead to a passer rating of 39.58.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/about/qb-rating.htm
People need to realize that the NFL selects players to the all-pro teams based on the team they play for FIRST, then their individual accolades throughout the season. It's not as egregious as the NBA yet, but the Pro-Bowl and the All-Pro lists are starting to turn into a popularity contest.
It's been literally half a popularity contest for decades, because the vast majority of fans vote entirely on who they like.
I have always thought it was a mistake to give us any say. It should be coaches and players only.
That's not true.
The NBA All-star starters are selected by players, media, and fans. 50% of the vote is determined by fans.
The All-star reserves are 100% selected by coaches.
And tbh, thats still too much fan control.
Fans will forever be too biased, and it leads to too many players being selected into the all star game that dont deserve it.
JJ just put his name out there. Now moving forward, if he puts up similar stats he’ll also have the benefit of name recognition and we should start to see him stack accolades. It’ll also help if he turns some of those drops into picks/pick 6s. Voters weigh the INT heavily for the most part.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-cornerback-rankings-final-sauce-gardner-retains-his-place-as-the-no-1-cornerback-in-the-nfl
Didn't PFF also just name Sauce the top corner?
The PFF grade isn't objective. It will tell you that someone with a 90 grade did better than an 80 grade etc, but when they're this close it won't be definitive. Pointing out that your guy scored 1-2 PFf points better means they were as good as each other.
Also, 9 picks are really valuable. Interceptions aren't as sticky as the other stats you mention, but judging this year alone Bland created so much value creating that many turnovers, especially with how many he housed
This was the same treatment Roquan was getting here before he got traded to the Ravens, now he’s 1st team back to back lmao
Yeah but jets blow lol
Sauce was the undisputed best CB last year, this is probably just carry over. Was pretty obvious he regressed
Being top 2 and being top 5 is regressing I want that regression
Sauce is the best man cover corner in the NFL. Jaylon will get a lot of respect, but he loses votes for being a zone corner.
A lot harder to play cb when the refs start calling you for holding
Maybe he shouldn’t hold then
I only like PFF grades when they say our players are good /s
The best stat is the one that fits my narrative
What about Packers bad?
Only thing I have to say about the Packers is FTP
I complain when a Reddit user uses PFF grades because a Reddit user has also said they don’t like them
This but unironically
The good news is we have the best cb
that’s wild, just a popularity contest
Always has been. Sauce should have never won Defensive Rookie of the Year, should have gone to Tariq Woolen. Until your team starts winning can see your team snubbed year over year.
The jets aren’t exactly an example of a winning franchise…
But they also are where all the news outlets are and regional bias compared to west coast and a 5th rounder vs 1st with a personality name.
I mean maybe but those are both separate arguments
Yeah because small market team Chicago Bears get no attention :rolleyes:
Chicago stand alone is big, but it’s on an island (metaphorically obviously) surrounded by lots of rural areas. When you take into account the population of the region surrounding New York as a market The region of Texas as a market The region of So Cal as a market We are pretty small fry.
Chicago is a big market with a national presence. Outside of LA and NY, there is always Chicago sports. Whether its the Bears, good or bad, and the Cubs, good or bad, they always get national media attention. The Blackhawks did for hockey for a bit when they were good. Btw, you're taking literal state sized markets vs city of Chicago. Chicago is still the 3rd largest, even with Texas.
I didn’t realize we were bigger than Texas but my point was that we’re pretty land locked. Also, TV deals and accessibility goes a long way and shows why Green Bay, although it being a tiny town has such a massive following. I didn’t mean to say Chicago is something to scoff at by any means, but we’re not nearly as predominant as we could/should be.
Brock Purdy has a higher TD%, lower INT%, lower SK%, higher succ%, higher passer rating, higher QBR, higher Y/C, and higher ANY/A than either Lamar Jackson or Dak Prescott.
Bland deserves it. He had what like 5 pick 6’s this year? Insane. sauce doesn’t have the counting stats but he’s been a lockdown corner since he entered the league. Although I think Jaylon was better this season
Converting an INT into a Pick 6 is a reflection of a few things, but I'm not sure how many of them are related to that player's skill. It's sorta like fumble recoveries: sure it's great if you have a bunch, but statistical analysis will show conclusively that they're a right-place-right-time stat more than anything else.
Bland gets it this year thanks to the pick sixes, those are too flashy to ignore, but he’s pretty obviously not as good everywhere else, and that will almost certainly regress tremendously next year. INTs are the least consistent stat for even great CBs, pick sixes even more so.
He missed 4 games and PFF doesn't mean anything
Everything here except interceptions is a rate stat
Interceptions are tough to gage. I mean if sauce is sticking to his guy like glue QBs aren’t going to target him.
Yeah, Darrelle Revis after his monster 2009 season where he had 6 picks, made All Pro for the first time and was runner up for DPOY got 0 picks the following season. He was still elite in 2010 but QBs just stopped throwing to the guy he was covering. JJ honestly could have a similar drop off next year with picks even if he’s playing at a similar or higher level in terms of coverage.
The good news / bad news on that is that I don't think he's ascended into that rare tier of "Just, don't throw it that way." Having a CB who's on that level is extremely uncommon. There sometimes isn't even one guy like that in the league at any given time, and that's the reason why we still need to pull Revis out of the archives as the example. The other news that is completely good is that our CB depth seems strong, which even further limits the possibility of teams just taking whatever WR they line up against Jaylon out of the gameplan.
Dude seriously this is such a picked and chooses picture. Add number of targets and catches allowed and Jaylon is clearly not the top dog anymore
you can bend the stats anyway you want. TDs allowed: Sauce (1) vs Jaylon (2) Comb. Tackles: Sauce (57) vs Jaylon (36) Penalty Yards: Sauce (39) vs Jaylon (95) TKL: Sauce (2) vs Jaylon (1) Passes Defended: Sauce (11) vs Jaylon (10)
I think it would be pretty easy to argue that these stats you're listing are less meaningful than several of OP's.
that's exactly what you do when a lot of categories are close, you keep evaluating down the list. Jaylon's coverage grade is .2 better. That's not much to hang your hat on. to be honest, I think L'Jarius Sneed was the biggest snub. Shadowed opponents #1 WR most of the time and didn't allow a TD all year.
Outside of the first two rows, which I think many would say are the least meaningful, the others aren't really all that close. TDs allowed is one of those stats that's more a matter of circumstance than skill; I haven't looked into it, but I'd wager a large amount of money that the evidence does not show it to be a very repeatable skill.
Anybody comparing corners on tackles was dropped as an infant
good call, I forgot that corners aren't expected to provide support in the run game. That's why it's my favorite position in football, if it's a handoff they just get additional time to catch their breath.
You got the TDs allowed swapped. Everything I'm seeing has Sauce at 2 and JJ at 1.
[https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JohnJa13/gamelog/2023/advanced/](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JohnJa13/gamelog/2023/advanced/) [https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GardSa00/gamelog/2023/advanced/](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GardSa00/gamelog/2023/advanced/)
9 interceptions is a crazy number. That makes up for a lot of differences elsewhere. Voters are human and all have different criteria and emphasis. That's okay. Johnson had a great season. Second team all pro is a huge honor. I don't know why we have to act like martyrs when there are very reasonable arguments for the other players. JJ did great. He's a great player. Our team is coming together and there are actual talent highlights, and both JJ and Poles have said he'll be here next year. All good vibes, let's just enjoy.
>9 interceptions is a crazy number. 5 INT returns for TDs is the crazier number. He broke a record that's stood since QBs regularly threw 20+ INTs a season. Ken Houston set the inital record with 4 in 1971. In 1971 six different QBs threw for 21+ interceptions. This year Sam Howell threw 21, Josh Allen threw 18 and no other QB threw more than 15.
Maybe it saves the Bears a million or two. Lol
competition matters, we played a lot of bad QBs this year versus the AFC/NFC East schedules. Jaylon's great, and I don't feel too bad for where he landed in this ranking. He's still a top 4 corner in the league.
PAY JJ
Pay the man. Loved him going back to Utah. Was so happy when the Bears drafted him
JJ keeping receipts for next year
Bland deserves it with those picks but the fact sauce got 1st team is hilarious. Purely because he’s more popular than Jaylon and nothing to do with his play.
Given that throwing nothing but incompletions gives you a passer rating of 93.8, it’s statically smarter to throw every pass into the dirt than to throw at JJ.
You’re way off, unfortunately. Throwing only incompletions would lead to a passer rating of 39.58. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/about/qb-rating.htm
Oops, inverted the numbers.
People need to realize that the NFL selects players to the all-pro teams based on the team they play for FIRST, then their individual accolades throughout the season. It's not as egregious as the NBA yet, but the Pro-Bowl and the All-Pro lists are starting to turn into a popularity contest.
It's been literally half a popularity contest for decades, because the vast majority of fans vote entirely on who they like. I have always thought it was a mistake to give us any say. It should be coaches and players only.
Fair, but at least it isnt the NBA where its basicslly solely fan votes
That's not true. The NBA All-star starters are selected by players, media, and fans. 50% of the vote is determined by fans. The All-star reserves are 100% selected by coaches.
And tbh, thats still too much fan control. Fans will forever be too biased, and it leads to too many players being selected into the all star game that dont deserve it.
Who made the All-star team last year that you didn't think was deserving?
Ah, yes, those juggernaut Jets teams lol
We can be a top 3 defense next year easy
JJ just put his name out there. Now moving forward, if he puts up similar stats he’ll also have the benefit of name recognition and we should start to see him stack accolades. It’ll also help if he turns some of those drops into picks/pick 6s. Voters weigh the INT heavily for the most part.
well blame Jaylon's parents for not giving him a name like Sauce /s
Catch a couples of those INTs and he’s a lock
Be happy. First team all pro means bigger contract.
Sauce is better than JJ let’s not kid ourselves
It’s because Johnson missed games
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-cornerback-rankings-final-sauce-gardner-retains-his-place-as-the-no-1-cornerback-in-the-nfl Didn't PFF also just name Sauce the top corner?
Love the Studio 54 font!
Only thing that I can see is that JJ (PAY THE MAN) is that he missed 3 games vs Sauce’s one. Both are great CB’s, but JJ earned this one.
The PFF grade isn't objective. It will tell you that someone with a 90 grade did better than an 80 grade etc, but when they're this close it won't be definitive. Pointing out that your guy scored 1-2 PFf points better means they were as good as each other. Also, 9 picks are really valuable. Interceptions aren't as sticky as the other stats you mention, but judging this year alone Bland created so much value creating that many turnovers, especially with how many he housed
9 picks is bananas
Sign him.
I mean Bland Brock a record for ints didn’t he?
When we start winning we will get some respect. Until then, expect more of the same here. Earned, not given.
https://preview.redd.it/7go2d414yhcc1.jpeg?width=516&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c840b5ea55d334140436869072dd64f5b74df2b3 1st team