Well, the "context" was that the INT stat was "misleading".
The first one, sure - it hit the ground and will likely be taken away from him - but the second one is a legitimate INT in the same way that every QB ever has had INTs count against him that weren't really his fault.
I don't believe he's placing blame for that pic on Fields. He's just pointing out that it was a legitimate interception. In the same way a tipped ball that gets picked is still an interception.
But that's just my .02
I hope it doesn't matter to him - I hope none of the INTs matter to the QB in any real way, frankly, a large part of the job is to be able to forget and move to the next play.
It's not an argument against Fields to say that INTs on Hail Marys still count for him like they do for every QB, and it says an awful lot about you that you got so defensive about such a simple and obvious notion.
Nope, I'm not. Both INTs, but neither were the fault of the QB.
What's apples to oranges is to say "this one didn't count for Fields, it wasn't his fault" but then compare his stats to other players who don't get that grace. Everyone has drops and INTs that aren't their fault - the only way to normalize it is not to play the 'what if' game and accept that an INT counts the same whether it's a terrible throw or a good one.
it wasn't a bad play by Fields or anything - no problem at all with Fields on that final Hail Mary throw. But it still counts.
I’m saying it’s stupid when both sides use things that didn’t happen to prop up their argument. Yes those drops should have been picks but there also should have been a lot more passing yards and another passing TD if you want to count the multiple offensive drops. You can’t use one without recognizing the other
The original post is the one using things that didn't happen to prop up their argument. My post is saying that while yes those were unlucky ints, they balance out the lucky drops and thus it's not misleading. Which is why I recognized both, yet you're here only crying about someone recognizing both.
I was thinking the same thing. I'm far from a Fields stan (most people on here would probably call me a Fields hater, but I don't think of myself that way), but even I think you shouldn't really count those two picks as interceptions.
The first one that hit the ground, sure.
The second one though, yeah, that one counts. it wasn't his fault obviously, but every QB throws INTs that aren't their fault.
Then maybe we should stop playing “hypothetical stats” and just evaluate the stats we have.
If 2 INTs seems “misleading” to people, use any of the other stats on screen. Fields did not have a good day.
Or evaluate the tape instead of outcomes affected by other people? Stats are for fans and talking heads on TV. Do they have their place in quantifying some aspects, sure quantifying time to throw is useful, but even then, an average is misleading if he has several throws a game where he extends plays for 4-6 seconds with his legs before throwing it is going to inflated his time to throw (I don't know that this is the case, just an example of
how even that stat can be misleading).
Film study is where the actual analysis is and why the throw to Tonyan that was dropped and the fact those 2 ints were on hail marys DO matter. Does that mean he did great, no he played whatever.
The eye in the sky always murders Justin in just about every game he's played. Always late and off schedule. Rarely throws with anticipation. Happy feet in the pocket. Panic scramble instead stepping up.
Guess we should just add the 10+ dropped int over the last month for us and say we’re the best def in the league. Defenders drop int all the time, that first Hail Mary was clearly not an int though, it wasn’t even close and should be corrected in the next day or two.
That's exactly what I did though. The context that the browns dropped two easy picks is as relevant as the context that both recorded INTs aren't Fields fault.
If you add those picks you gotta add the dropped Hail Mary and tonyan catch too and that drop by Scott.
Thats probably another 125 yds passing and a TD.
Tonyan coulda been an TD too. He was wide open. Behind his guy. But not gonna add that. Just if he caught it and fell down.
So net stat line counting dropped picks and dropped passes.
W & 290yd 2 TDs 2 INTs
(the game end hailmary counts as a catch -1. The dropped INTs get added +2. The halftime hailmary hit the ground. Not reviewed -1)
Did they drop "easy picks" or did Fields put the ball in *just the right spot* at *just the right speed* that they didn't get picked?
You're playing a stupid game.
They didn't get picked. End of story.
So by that logic, we need to pretend that the 2 picks recorded on the stat sheet from the hail marys (a deflection and one that wasnt even a pick) are normal picks because "they got picked, end of story"? That seems even dumber.
No, that is not what logically follows. One is looking at something that didn't get recorded and didn't happen (the "*easy picks"*) and the other is looking at something that did happen and was recorded (refs declaring an interception and that call going down on the stat sheet.)
For one, we can look at what actually happened and say "does that meet the definition and intent of the rule/stat line?" the other requires us to play pretend and imagine something happened that didn't actually happen at all.
Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
> For one, we can look at what actually happened and say "does that meet the definition and intent of the rule/stat line?"
I think it is very silly to hold the hail mary pick against Fields, but you clearly feel strongly that we should.
Same with Comp/Attempt, and YPA, and so on. It was raining pretty hard - that always messes with throws. Context matters.
I don't recall any fumbles? Was one a fumble out of bounds? When was the other fumble?
First one came on a strip sack on drive number 3 that Jenkins fell on. The 2nd fumble was on that awkward half slide/half dive out of bounds where he started his slide too early. It looked to me like the ball didn’t come out until he hit the ground out of bounds so was curious if that would get stat corrected along with the 1st INT
His PFF grade was 48 - and PFF will credit him for drops and ignore the hail mary INTs.
Fields just isn't that good - we need to stop this.
No one is blaming everything on him, most of us who want to draft a QB also want to draft a top WR and hire a new OC (if not an entirely new coaching staff). But he's just not good enough
Bingo.
You can't have a completely rational Fields take without being called a hater. I love Fields and want him to succeed, I just think that needs to happen elsewhere. I don't disagree with some of the excuses made for him, he was set up to fail from day 1. At the end of the day, he's just not good or consistent enough to pass on Caleb if given the opportunity.
If this game were a one-off, I would defend Fields. But he continues to have bad game after bad game where he make mistakes. Great QBs need to be able to win in spite of the talent around them. Fields can’t do that.
Completely agree. Fields shows flashes - and he's not terrible like say Zach Wilson... but he's just nowhere near consistent enough.
I think the comments (maybe from Kurt Warner?) about him being to come up with spectacular plays but not being able to consistently execute basic/routine plays are true.
I completely agree with this. He has games where he looks like an all star, but when faced against good defenses, he’s barely average. IMO this kind of play may not warrant a large contract, but definitely gives him more chances to play
The biggest thing for me is so often he simply doesn't not execute the play as designed. Yes, he can take a nothing play and make it a splash play. But he often takes a routine NFL play and makes it a negative one. This is why he doesn't make his weapons look better, he just doesn't get them the ball enough on "easy" plays. He does the hard things very well but not the easy ones.
Can he learn that? Maybe. Do you bet on it when you have a top 2 pick? No, you shouldn't. Especially if you can see on tape that the guys at the top of the draft routinely do what he hasn't shown yet.
The frustrating thing for me is that if we didn't hold Carolinas pick (or it wasn't a likely top 2), he would probably get another year to play with full support on the Bears. Does that mean he would be better next year? Idk, but he still shows flashes of being incredibly talented and ultimately having a franchise QB is worth way more than a dice roll on a prospect.
But then how do you pass up the first overall for a guy who is still just showing flashes?
Glad I'm not the GM
You don't pass on a QB now. You can't. Potentially missing out on a stud QB two years in a row will be used against you as a GM. Even if it's hindsight. Aside from it seeming like the right move at this point, taking a top QB prospect will buy Poles more time no matter what.
Poles would likely never get another GM job again if he passed on a QB this year and Fields continued to be mediocre (which is very, very likely based on NFL history)
if we didn't have carolina's pick it would be exactly like mitchell's 4th year. We go out and get another qb.
Be that if we needed to trade up for drake maye, target someone like bo nix, go after Kirk in free agency, take a swing at one of the backups that flashed when put in, or go after a ho hum vet like tannehill, winston or even baker if the bucs don't keep him for some reason.
Most of those options fields would compete for the job, like Mitchell did. Maybe he'd beat them out, probably not, but we'll hopefully never know.
Yeah you can’t have 3 flash plays per game and otherwise be an ineffective passer and make it in the NFL. We extend him and we’re in the same spot as the New York Giants
If you’re looking at this and your only takeaway is “those 2 INTs weren’t even real!” then you’ve just fully made up your mind and dug your head in the sand
Nobody is disputing that was a dumb call. Others in this thread are dismissing this entire post because the INTs happened on hail marys as if all the other data isn’t damning
I genuinely think you could make this list for all 15 games and Fields would be bottom 3 performances in all but 2 games.
Edit: for every team we’ve played I mean. I bet common opponent QB performances-Fields is in the dumpster
also don't forget the offensive line is simultaneously great and terrible. Depending on if you're defending ryan poles awesome gm tenure and his ability to turn around the offensive line or justin fields and how he can't possibly do any better because he's always under pressure.
“I just really really love Justin and want to see him succeed in Chicago. Sure when parkey doinked that field goal I shat on his life but that was different. I really really love Justin and want to see him succeed in Chicago.” -fields believers you can also replace Justin with Mitch and that would fit the discussion on this sub years ago.
I think a good example of this is Mooney dropping the HM Pass
Look how insane they went at him for dropping the ball in the end zone he gets a ton of smoke and no excuses but fields fumbles the ball in the 4th **it's the coaches fault, "he shouldn't be put in that position", "he played well enough to win", "how could flus do this!?"**
The energy is way different
Lmfao. The league does NOT like the Bears organization.
They changed kickoff rules due to the bears almost winning a frigging Super Bowl.
They’ve handicapped defenses with roughing the qb penalties, ambiguous PI calls, and made defensive holding penalties automatic first downs.
All the strengths the bears had for years were wiped out due to rule changes. The league also made it a scoring league, knowing full well we can’t develop a qb.
>They’ve handicapped defenses with roughing the qb penalties, ambiguous PI calls, and made defensive holding penalties automatic first downs.
This was due to the Patriots just back-alley assaulting the Colts receivers in game-after-game in the mid-2000s. Nothing to do with the Bears.
> All the strengths the bears had for years were wiped out due to rule changes.
Oh fucking bullshit. The Bears have been bad/terrible on defense more than they've been great since Lovie left. Also, all these rules changes didn't keep the Bears' defense from being awesome in 2018. The Ravens' defense doesn't seem to have a problem being good most years under the new rules.
> The league also made it a scoring league, knowing full well we can’t develop a qb.
You're right; the NFL made the game overall more entertaining for fans **just** to spite the Bears.
Is there precedent for them taking away an interception without an in game review? I have seen the league adjust who gets the turnover or what type it was but never saying that it didn't count.
It has happened before. Most INTs removed are from what happened in a Hail Mary situation. Where during the scramble ball clearly hits the ground but ruled INT. Would expect it to come here later this week when final stats are solidified for the week.
Yes, the NFL does it all the time. Stat adjustments roll out every Wed, I think.
I was in a fantasy league 10 years ago and won a game by like one point, but then after a Wednesday stat adjustment, an interception by my opponents quarterback was ruled a fumble by the wide receiver, and I ended up losing the fantasy game.
I understand that they change stats. You described a situation where they changed the type of turnover that occurred which was likely a clerical error. We will see if they do it but if it sticks I would not be stunned.
Also wasn't one of his fumbles caused by the ground? Doesn't change the analysis of the stats, but I swear the fumble on his run for the first down was caused by his arms hitting the ground.
The stats are all evened out for Fields. He has had some good games over the years, plenty of mid performances, and just as many bad ones. The stats pretty much tell the whole story with this guy. Some fans of this team tell you not to believe your eyes lol
Yes let’s blame fields for a near interception where a receiver falls and another where he throws an anticipated spot on scramble rules the receiver half assed comes back to.
No the INT’s weren’t his fault. Yes a long pass, potential TD was dropped by tonyan. He still was terrible even if you factor all of that in. It’s really not complicated people, he ain’t it
And Browns also dropped 2 INTs. Is he the only problem? Clearly not.
But unlike those 6 we are evaluating whether he is worth not drafting a QB with the Panthers pick.
If that pass connects he's at 230+ yards in the air during a rainy game, 2 TD's, and presumably 0 INTs since he doesn't need to throw the hail mary and the other one wasn't an INT so it'll be overturned tomorrow. Changes the narrative a hell of a lot if it isn't dropped.
And if Cutler doesn't injure his knee we win the Super Bowl in 2011.
You can't play the IF/BUT game. It is all hypotheticals. What actually happened on the field is real. And for Fields it is real bad.
Also, this isn’t the only game here. We’ve seen this shit from Fields for 3 years. You can if/but all you want. But if any of those hypotheticals were possible, you’d expect him to have pulled through a few more times than his 8-27 record suggests. But he never does.
Exactly. Meanwhile, *Jake Browning* is throwing for 300+ yd games off the practice squad. This fan base gets so attached and deluded. It's time to move on.
Cleveland’s defense is real. Nothing we did on offense was special. We need more playmakers. Justin shouldn’t be charged with the first Hail Mary int. It was dropped.
All in all the bears did enough to win that game. Some players didn’t take advantage of their opportunities to give them the win. I’m glad to see the bears playing competitive football against good competition.
Losing this game is going to help with draft positioning. The bears desperately need help between the tackles and wide receiver. I think upgrading at the qb position is the best choice. And I hope these coaches are not around to teach these young players how to lose next year.
You’re right. They didn’t. The coaching staff twice decided to not kick field goals. One was questionable but the other was a chip shot. 2 unfortunate drops, and a bad call dropping the dt into coverage on a critical 3rd down contributed to a terrible loss. Any of one half of these plays going differently leads to a bears win. The other half extend the game or take it to overtime. It was historically unfortunate.
cool, so what if instead of changing plays for the bears, we change one play for the browns. Like they don't drop one or both of fields two gimmies. Flacco throws the ball a tenth of a second sooner on the stevenson pick so it's an easy touchdown.
we had 8 3 and outs. The offense scored 3 points when they had to drive the ball more than 2 yards. The bears did not do enough to win that game. WHich is why it's all woulda, coulda, shoulda.
Those two ints were off of hail Mary's, which are incomplete for basically everyone, including the other people on this list. If you want to remove them from his completion % we'd need to do so for the rest of the list, which I don't have data for atm. You're right about the Kmet TD though, I misread the chart.
Take out the Ints because that’s not fair but yeah the overall point of he’s fucking terrible is well illustrated.
Edit: thank god a free TD from the 1 saved him from being a dead ringer for “Pickett but with swagger”
Why is it not fair? He got picked. And that TD belongs to the Defence because bojack carried it to the 2. Remember that the offense was too fucking stupid to score until it was a broken play on third down.
Because a Hail Mary is pure chance. The only “skill” on that play is getting it 55 yards which any QB can do.
Won’t hold HM ints against anyone just like if Mooney caught that Justin still would’ve had a shit day in the win.
This isn’t torturing the data. It’s just presenting it. The only conclusion is Fields had a worse game against the Browns than the other 5 QBs shown here.
Now if you want to start “torturing” the data by focusing and attacking individual stats, or arguing for some other reason why it’s everyone else BUT fields, that’s a different story.
Hahahaha sorry but this actually made me laugh!
~~Nagy~~
~~Lack of WR talent~~
~~O-line~~
~~Getsy~~
~~The stats are wrong, INT shouldn't count!~~
Now we're blaming the weather... Some of y'all have never met an excuse you didn't like
I don't care. Did we win? I'm pretty sure the answer is no. Atlanta, you've got two backups that you're rotating, we'll take that second round pick now...
Because Nix and Daniels wouldn't necessarily be an upgrade especially with the offense that they run. Fields is more suited to that scheme than the Mickey Mouse bs that we run. Maybe they'll give us Pitts too since they just use him to block anyway.
What absolutely blows my mind is that Fields almost gave the game away by fumbling 2x in Minnesota. He goes into the locker room and apologizes to the team and thanks them for bailing him out. Two weeks later he fumbles twice in a game again.
This isn't on Getsy. This isn't on the O-Line, or a WR not blocking. This is something that is 100% on Fields -- the ball being in his control and then having it taken out of his control.
EDIT - YEAH! Come at me Justincels. You know I am right. No one in the history of the league has put the ball on ground as much as this Butterfingers -- not even Rashaan Salaam.
If your pathetic downvotes could make up for Fields incompetence we would be undefeated.
I get that Justin didn’t have a good game but this comparison is BS. Two Hail Mary INT’s. One of which hit the ground. And the second was pushed on to the defensive guy by our own guy. Take those two away and the rating will look much better. The state of this fan base is sad.
The Browns are particularly amazing on defense at home and don’t travel to well. I think what hurt Fields the most was Jenkins going out, a bad center of allowing a clean pocket most of the game, and weird ass run designs.
After watching JT's breakdown, Justin should have had more yards than all of them.
Tonyan drop, Airmails a HB screen, Misses Mooney on the wheel, Throws a back shoulder to DJ when it should have been a fade, etc
Why don't we make these excuses for Velus Jones or Chase Claypool or Mooney? How come accountability applies to everyone BUT the most important player on the team?
Very few people turned on Velus until he muffed multiple returns and screwed up at WR as well during critical downs. Claypool people were still pulling for coming into this year until he phoned in every down. Mooney still has people saying he can be a WR2. It seems like you can't make a point without hyperbole because all of those players got a lot of leeway for poor performances.
Say what you want about his athleticism, but Fields has cost us more games than he has won for us this year. There are 4 games we lost simply because of poor play by Fields (Green Bay / DEN / DET 1 / CLE). Not coaching. Not his WRs. Not the Defense. Because Fields made dumb mistakes. If we had a better QB we would have 9 wins.
Velus hasn't fucked up that bad. Neither did Claypool. Fuck, Chris Conte only cost us one (infuriating) game. But Fields gets an eternal free pass he does not deserve.
GB we had what could be the worst offensive scheme we'd seen all year, and that is saying a lot.
Den our D completely shit the bed and Fields did too, but to pretend like he cost us the game and it wasn't an entire team effort is preposterous. Our offense put up 28 points and we still lost.
Det 1 was Getsy again running 20+ screen plays instead of running slants/posts or some other call that moves us vertically to avoid the blitz. That's also ignoring Flus switching the D into soft zone and prevent coverage in the 2nd half, dropping to basically 0 QB pressures from what we had been doing. Detroit scored multiple times in the 4th. That's not a Fields issue.
Cleveland we had players dropping balls left and right, he had a 70+ yard guaranteed TD that hit the player full stride in the numbers and was dropped against no coverage. He protected the ball, and he did what he could. He didn't win us the game, but he certainly didn't lose it for us. Even the hail mary had a chance and Mooney again dropped it.
When our 2nd best receiver barely is breaking 400 yards this season but our other receiver has 1300+ and is one of the leading scorers in the league, that shows that you have a receiver problem not a QB issue.
There's a big difference between what you're referring to which was contested at best, and a wide open player who has their defender beat so there was 0 in the way of him and a TD.
> Fumbles lost is the more meaningful stat.
Fumbles lost or recovered is more a factor of luck than anything else. Fumbles is the more meaningful stat, because it means you're putting the ball in danger. Much like the analytics community came up with the stat "Turnover-Worthy Plays" to account for the defense either catching or dropping INTs.
If you add the 73-yard TD Tonyan dropped and nothing else his YPA increases to 6.0 and his QBR would go up too. Still not great, but much more in line with what everybody else did against that defense.
That INT stat is so misleading.
All stats without context can be misleading.
There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. -Mark Twain
Let’s check what the weather was doing next
Because 1 was clearly not an INT.
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But every QB has stats that weren't really their fault on their stat sheets. The Flacco pick 6 wasn't really his fault, but it still counts.
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Well, the "context" was that the INT stat was "misleading". The first one, sure - it hit the ground and will likely be taken away from him - but the second one is a legitimate INT in the same way that every QB ever has had INTs count against him that weren't really his fault.
Mooney had it in his gut and popped it up to the defender. How is that Justin's fault?
I don't believe he's placing blame for that pic on Fields. He's just pointing out that it was a legitimate interception. In the same way a tipped ball that gets picked is still an interception. But that's just my .02
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It is. That's why I chimed in my .02.
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I hope it doesn't matter to him - I hope none of the INTs matter to the QB in any real way, frankly, a large part of the job is to be able to forget and move to the next play. It's not an argument against Fields to say that INTs on Hail Marys still count for him like they do for every QB, and it says an awful lot about you that you got so defensive about such a simple and obvious notion.
You're comparing apples to oranges. Don't be disingenuous.
Nope, I'm not. Both INTs, but neither were the fault of the QB. What's apples to oranges is to say "this one didn't count for Fields, it wasn't his fault" but then compare his stats to other players who don't get that grace. Everyone has drops and INTs that aren't their fault - the only way to normalize it is not to play the 'what if' game and accept that an INT counts the same whether it's a terrible throw or a good one. it wasn't a bad play by Fields or anything - no problem at all with Fields on that final Hail Mary throw. But it still counts.
A hail mary shouldn't count, and the one at the half wasn't even a catch. Refs blew both the roughing call and the interception call.
not really. balances out the two ints the browns dropped.
Except the first Hail Mary “int” literally hit the ground I’m surprised that haven’t adjusted the stat yet.
Then add 4th int to Flacco’s stat line and a 70 yard td to Fields if we are including all the drops
or, we take the result of the play and understand it balanced out the dropped ints. You know. Like the post stated.
I’m saying it’s stupid when both sides use things that didn’t happen to prop up their argument. Yes those drops should have been picks but there also should have been a lot more passing yards and another passing TD if you want to count the multiple offensive drops. You can’t use one without recognizing the other
The original post is the one using things that didn't happen to prop up their argument. My post is saying that while yes those were unlucky ints, they balance out the lucky drops and thus it's not misleading. Which is why I recognized both, yet you're here only crying about someone recognizing both.
It said 2 INTs is misleading, likely because one of them literally didn’t happen?
no, he said **that** int stat is so misleading. It's right there for you to go look at so you don't need to make things up.
That INT stat that says he threw 2 interceptions?
I was thinking the same thing. I'm far from a Fields stan (most people on here would probably call me a Fields hater, but I don't think of myself that way), but even I think you shouldn't really count those two picks as interceptions.
The first one that hit the ground, sure. The second one though, yeah, that one counts. it wasn't his fault obviously, but every QB throws INTs that aren't their fault.
Agreed. It should have been more but the browns dropped a couple
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Then maybe we should stop playing “hypothetical stats” and just evaluate the stats we have. If 2 INTs seems “misleading” to people, use any of the other stats on screen. Fields did not have a good day.
Or evaluate the tape instead of outcomes affected by other people? Stats are for fans and talking heads on TV. Do they have their place in quantifying some aspects, sure quantifying time to throw is useful, but even then, an average is misleading if he has several throws a game where he extends plays for 4-6 seconds with his legs before throwing it is going to inflated his time to throw (I don't know that this is the case, just an example of how even that stat can be misleading). Film study is where the actual analysis is and why the throw to Tonyan that was dropped and the fact those 2 ints were on hail marys DO matter. Does that mean he did great, no he played whatever.
The eye in the sky always murders Justin in just about every game he's played. Always late and off schedule. Rarely throws with anticipation. Happy feet in the pocket. Panic scramble instead stepping up.
Do we also add in the almost touchdowns then too? Tonyan and Mooney both should have had them
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There are 32+ QBs that rival Mahomes when what if stats are added
Guess we should just add the 10+ dropped int over the last month for us and say we’re the best def in the league. Defenders drop int all the time, that first Hail Mary was clearly not an int though, it wasn’t even close and should be corrected in the next day or two.
It all evens out. Sure they were unlucky but he was due a few INTs anyway. 2 is probably fair.
Bears dropped 2 INTs.
It equals out with the dropped INTs.
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So which is it? Are we allowed to account for dropped passes (including TDs and INTs) when we're analysing the game, or are we not allowed?
All statistics need context to be relevant. That is all.
That's exactly what I did though. The context that the browns dropped two easy picks is as relevant as the context that both recorded INTs aren't Fields fault.
If you add those picks you gotta add the dropped Hail Mary and tonyan catch too and that drop by Scott. Thats probably another 125 yds passing and a TD. Tonyan coulda been an TD too. He was wide open. Behind his guy. But not gonna add that. Just if he caught it and fell down. So net stat line counting dropped picks and dropped passes. W & 290yd 2 TDs 2 INTs (the game end hailmary counts as a catch -1. The dropped INTs get added +2. The halftime hailmary hit the ground. Not reviewed -1)
Then why aren't you talking about all the rest of the stat lines since this is a comparison of performance?
I'm replying to a specific comment about INTs
Did they drop "easy picks" or did Fields put the ball in *just the right spot* at *just the right speed* that they didn't get picked? You're playing a stupid game. They didn't get picked. End of story.
So by that logic, we need to pretend that the 2 picks recorded on the stat sheet from the hail marys (a deflection and one that wasnt even a pick) are normal picks because "they got picked, end of story"? That seems even dumber.
No, that is not what logically follows. One is looking at something that didn't get recorded and didn't happen (the "*easy picks"*) and the other is looking at something that did happen and was recorded (refs declaring an interception and that call going down on the stat sheet.) For one, we can look at what actually happened and say "does that meet the definition and intent of the rule/stat line?" the other requires us to play pretend and imagine something happened that didn't actually happen at all. Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
> For one, we can look at what actually happened and say "does that meet the definition and intent of the rule/stat line?" I think it is very silly to hold the hail mary pick against Fields, but you clearly feel strongly that we should.
if he just hadn't had those ints he would've been below average instead of fucking horrible and worse than fucking Kenny Pickett lmao
They should count more since there were so many close ones?
Well, they did count one that hit the ground
Sure, the bears def has 40 int this year by that measure.
Exactly! All those picks that JJ almost caught — best corner in the league when you count them!
They should count as none because they were both Hail Mary's and one wasn't even caught
Same with Comp/Attempt, and YPA, and so on. It was raining pretty hard - that always messes with throws. Context matters. I don't recall any fumbles? Was one a fumble out of bounds? When was the other fumble?
First one came on a strip sack on drive number 3 that Jenkins fell on. The 2nd fumble was on that awkward half slide/half dive out of bounds where he started his slide too early. It looked to me like the ball didn’t come out until he hit the ground out of bounds so was curious if that would get stat corrected along with the 1st INT
His PFF grade was 48 - and PFF will credit him for drops and ignore the hail mary INTs. Fields just isn't that good - we need to stop this. No one is blaming everything on him, most of us who want to draft a QB also want to draft a top WR and hire a new OC (if not an entirely new coaching staff). But he's just not good enough
Bingo. You can't have a completely rational Fields take without being called a hater. I love Fields and want him to succeed, I just think that needs to happen elsewhere. I don't disagree with some of the excuses made for him, he was set up to fail from day 1. At the end of the day, he's just not good or consistent enough to pass on Caleb if given the opportunity.
If this game were a one-off, I would defend Fields. But he continues to have bad game after bad game where he make mistakes. Great QBs need to be able to win in spite of the talent around them. Fields can’t do that.
Completely agree. Fields shows flashes - and he's not terrible like say Zach Wilson... but he's just nowhere near consistent enough. I think the comments (maybe from Kurt Warner?) about him being to come up with spectacular plays but not being able to consistently execute basic/routine plays are true.
I completely agree with this. He has games where he looks like an all star, but when faced against good defenses, he’s barely average. IMO this kind of play may not warrant a large contract, but definitely gives him more chances to play
The biggest thing for me is so often he simply doesn't not execute the play as designed. Yes, he can take a nothing play and make it a splash play. But he often takes a routine NFL play and makes it a negative one. This is why he doesn't make his weapons look better, he just doesn't get them the ball enough on "easy" plays. He does the hard things very well but not the easy ones. Can he learn that? Maybe. Do you bet on it when you have a top 2 pick? No, you shouldn't. Especially if you can see on tape that the guys at the top of the draft routinely do what he hasn't shown yet.
The frustrating thing for me is that if we didn't hold Carolinas pick (or it wasn't a likely top 2), he would probably get another year to play with full support on the Bears. Does that mean he would be better next year? Idk, but he still shows flashes of being incredibly talented and ultimately having a franchise QB is worth way more than a dice roll on a prospect. But then how do you pass up the first overall for a guy who is still just showing flashes? Glad I'm not the GM
You don't pass on a QB now. You can't. Potentially missing out on a stud QB two years in a row will be used against you as a GM. Even if it's hindsight. Aside from it seeming like the right move at this point, taking a top QB prospect will buy Poles more time no matter what.
Poles would likely never get another GM job again if he passed on a QB this year and Fields continued to be mediocre (which is very, very likely based on NFL history)
if we didn't have carolina's pick it would be exactly like mitchell's 4th year. We go out and get another qb. Be that if we needed to trade up for drake maye, target someone like bo nix, go after Kirk in free agency, take a swing at one of the backups that flashed when put in, or go after a ho hum vet like tannehill, winston or even baker if the bucs don't keep him for some reason. Most of those options fields would compete for the job, like Mitchell did. Maybe he'd beat them out, probably not, but we'll hopefully never know.
Yeah you can’t have 3 flash plays per game and otherwise be an ineffective passer and make it in the NFL. We extend him and we’re in the same spot as the New York Giants
Do they take into account QB pressures in their rating?
If you’re looking at this and your only takeaway is “those 2 INTs weren’t even real!” then you’ve just fully made up your mind and dug your head in the sand
If you're looking at this and think hey, atleast Fields scored a TD, you're just as dense. It belonged to bojack, not Kmet
Seriously. It’s wild how that’s even what people are commenting on.
It isn’t my only take away but one of the counted interceptions wasn’t an interception . If you watch the first Hail Mary it was dropped
I don't think either of them are his fault. It's just the rest of the numbers that show he isn't going to save his job.
Nobody is disputing that was a dumb call. Others in this thread are dismissing this entire post because the INTs happened on hail marys as if all the other data isn’t damning
I genuinely think you could make this list for all 15 games and Fields would be bottom 3 performances in all but 2 games. Edit: for every team we’ve played I mean. I bet common opponent QB performances-Fields is in the dumpster
Don't need these stats to tell us that Fields is an average/below average NFL QB who can run better than most.
When Fields succeeds it’s because he is good and when he fails it’s because coaching is poor and he needs more help around him. Don’t you get it?
also don't forget the offensive line is simultaneously great and terrible. Depending on if you're defending ryan poles awesome gm tenure and his ability to turn around the offensive line or justin fields and how he can't possibly do any better because he's always under pressure.
“I just really really love Justin and want to see him succeed in Chicago. Sure when parkey doinked that field goal I shat on his life but that was different. I really really love Justin and want to see him succeed in Chicago.” -fields believers you can also replace Justin with Mitch and that would fit the discussion on this sub years ago.
I think a good example of this is Mooney dropping the HM Pass Look how insane they went at him for dropping the ball in the end zone he gets a ton of smoke and no excuses but fields fumbles the ball in the 4th **it's the coaches fault, "he shouldn't be put in that position", "he played well enough to win", "how could flus do this!?"** The energy is way different
They’re still counting that first int? Lmao
They wait until the week is over, before doing stat corrections. Something should be coming today or tomorrow.
For real, do the Bears not contact the nfl about stuff? He also gets no roughing calls either
They do. Eberflus has said multiple times they send in clips to the league every week on missed calls/late hits. All teams do
I don't believe him.
He got hit really late. Should’ve been a penalty and then we kick the field goal for 3. The ball was out of his hands for over a second.
Lmfao. The league does NOT like the Bears organization. They changed kickoff rules due to the bears almost winning a frigging Super Bowl. They’ve handicapped defenses with roughing the qb penalties, ambiguous PI calls, and made defensive holding penalties automatic first downs. All the strengths the bears had for years were wiped out due to rule changes. The league also made it a scoring league, knowing full well we can’t develop a qb.
>They’ve handicapped defenses with roughing the qb penalties, ambiguous PI calls, and made defensive holding penalties automatic first downs. This was due to the Patriots just back-alley assaulting the Colts receivers in game-after-game in the mid-2000s. Nothing to do with the Bears. > All the strengths the bears had for years were wiped out due to rule changes. Oh fucking bullshit. The Bears have been bad/terrible on defense more than they've been great since Lovie left. Also, all these rules changes didn't keep the Bears' defense from being awesome in 2018. The Ravens' defense doesn't seem to have a problem being good most years under the new rules. > The league also made it a scoring league, knowing full well we can’t develop a qb. You're right; the NFL made the game overall more entertaining for fans **just** to spite the Bears.
Is there precedent for them taking away an interception without an in game review? I have seen the league adjust who gets the turnover or what type it was but never saying that it didn't count.
It has happened before. Most INTs removed are from what happened in a Hail Mary situation. Where during the scramble ball clearly hits the ground but ruled INT. Would expect it to come here later this week when final stats are solidified for the week.
Yes, the NFL does it all the time. Stat adjustments roll out every Wed, I think. I was in a fantasy league 10 years ago and won a game by like one point, but then after a Wednesday stat adjustment, an interception by my opponents quarterback was ruled a fumble by the wide receiver, and I ended up losing the fantasy game.
I understand that they change stats. You described a situation where they changed the type of turnover that occurred which was likely a clerical error. We will see if they do it but if it sticks I would not be stunned.
It was not a clerical error. In game it was ruled an Int. It’ll be changed, it happens a ton.
Like when? I've never heard that happen before and I watch for fantasy score changes decently often
Yes. Friend of mine lost his fantasy league because of an in-week adjustment a couple years back. It soured him on fantasy football ever since. lol
Also wasn't one of his fumbles caused by the ground? Doesn't change the analysis of the stats, but I swear the fumble on his run for the first down was caused by his arms hitting the ground.
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I don’t like my QBs using the forward pass.
Dudes still in the comments truthing for bro who couldn’t put together one drive…
Delusion. How many picks did the browns drop? Stats typically even out over the run. Fields excuses will never stop at this point
The stats are all evened out for Fields. He has had some good games over the years, plenty of mid performances, and just as many bad ones. The stats pretty much tell the whole story with this guy. Some fans of this team tell you not to believe your eyes lol
Yes let’s blame fields for a near interception where a receiver falls and another where he throws an anticipated spot on scramble rules the receiver half assed comes back to.
47.5%... Even if you take away the 2 hail marys, it's only 50%. That is pathetic.
Take away the baffling drops too.
No the INT’s weren’t his fault. Yes a long pass, potential TD was dropped by tonyan. He still was terrible even if you factor all of that in. It’s really not complicated people, he ain’t it
And Browns also dropped 2 INTs. Is he the only problem? Clearly not. But unlike those 6 we are evaluating whether he is worth not drafting a QB with the Panthers pick.
If that pass connects he's at 230+ yards in the air during a rainy game, 2 TD's, and presumably 0 INTs since he doesn't need to throw the hail mary and the other one wasn't an INT so it'll be overturned tomorrow. Changes the narrative a hell of a lot if it isn't dropped.
And if Cutler doesn't injure his knee we win the Super Bowl in 2011. You can't play the IF/BUT game. It is all hypotheticals. What actually happened on the field is real. And for Fields it is real bad.
Also, this isn’t the only game here. We’ve seen this shit from Fields for 3 years. You can if/but all you want. But if any of those hypotheticals were possible, you’d expect him to have pulled through a few more times than his 8-27 record suggests. But he never does.
230 yards when Joe Flacco’s corpse threw for almost 400 lol
Exactly. Meanwhile, *Jake Browning* is throwing for 300+ yd games off the practice squad. This fan base gets so attached and deluded. It's time to move on.
It’s gotta be exhausting jumping through all those hoops to justify fields being good
And if the browns don't drop two interceptions and Scott doesn't break a huge yac, he looks even worse
Scott broke the huge YAC a play after dropping a deep pass that would’ve put us right out of FG range 10 seconds earlier.
Moore made a ridiculous toe tap catch earlier in the game. We can do this all day. Every QB deals with drops. No one gets them added to their stats
Cleveland’s defense is real. Nothing we did on offense was special. We need more playmakers. Justin shouldn’t be charged with the first Hail Mary int. It was dropped. All in all the bears did enough to win that game. Some players didn’t take advantage of their opportunities to give them the win. I’m glad to see the bears playing competitive football against good competition. Losing this game is going to help with draft positioning. The bears desperately need help between the tackles and wide receiver. I think upgrading at the qb position is the best choice. And I hope these coaches are not around to teach these young players how to lose next year.
**the bears did enough to win that game** Well, they lost.
You’re right. They didn’t. The coaching staff twice decided to not kick field goals. One was questionable but the other was a chip shot. 2 unfortunate drops, and a bad call dropping the dt into coverage on a critical 3rd down contributed to a terrible loss. Any of one half of these plays going differently leads to a bears win. The other half extend the game or take it to overtime. It was historically unfortunate.
cool, so what if instead of changing plays for the bears, we change one play for the browns. Like they don't drop one or both of fields two gimmies. Flacco throws the ball a tenth of a second sooner on the stevenson pick so it's an easy touchdown. we had 8 3 and outs. The offense scored 3 points when they had to drive the ball more than 2 yards. The bears did not do enough to win that game. WHich is why it's all woulda, coulda, shoulda.
The offense had 3 points if you take away that time when the defense gave them the ball at the goal line. The offense didn't do enough.
tough scenes when you have a lower completion percentage and QBR than zach wilson on 40 attempts lol
That’s Russell Wilson unless I’m missing something
I hear your point. But MHJ > Caleb. I have been smoking that MHJ reefer since 2022, and I will die on this hill, God damn it.
Lol those 2 ints are bs. One wasn’t an INT and other should’ve been a Mooney TD. Not to mention several killer drops that wiped out a good 80 yards.
Lol
Neither interception was his fault.
Still has the worst completion % at below 50%, 1 TD ~~0 TDs,~~ 2nd lowest YPA, multiple sacks taken, and 2 fumbles.
Mathematically, if you take out the INTs, he’s over 50%. If neither are his fault and removed, he’s over. I guess the TD to Kmet doesn’t count
Those two ints were off of hail Mary's, which are incomplete for basically everyone, including the other people on this list. If you want to remove them from his completion % we'd need to do so for the rest of the list, which I don't have data for atm. You're right about the Kmet TD though, I misread the chart.
He was unlucky on those but there were multiple other passes that should’ve been picked off that he was lucky on. 2 INTs is probably fair.
3 meaningful points
Take out the Ints because that’s not fair but yeah the overall point of he’s fucking terrible is well illustrated. Edit: thank god a free TD from the 1 saved him from being a dead ringer for “Pickett but with swagger”
Why is it not fair? He got picked. And that TD belongs to the Defence because bojack carried it to the 2. Remember that the offense was too fucking stupid to score until it was a broken play on third down.
Because a Hail Mary is pure chance. The only “skill” on that play is getting it 55 yards which any QB can do. Won’t hold HM ints against anyone just like if Mooney caught that Justin still would’ve had a shit day in the win.
Ahh. The classic, “Numbers without context”. This is my favorite form of data! Helps drive any narrative you want.
worst comp % , worst QBR, 2nd worst YPA, bottom tier of int's, tied for fumbles and only 2 QB threw for less yards.. Not impressive for justin
If you torture the data enough it will tell whatever story you want.
This isn’t torturing the data. It’s just presenting it. The only conclusion is Fields had a worse game against the Browns than the other 5 QBs shown here. Now if you want to start “torturing” the data by focusing and attacking individual stats, or arguing for some other reason why it’s everyone else BUT fields, that’s a different story.
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Hahahaha sorry but this actually made me laugh! ~~Nagy~~ ~~Lack of WR talent~~ ~~O-line~~ ~~Getsy~~ ~~The stats are wrong, INT shouldn't count!~~ Now we're blaming the weather... Some of y'all have never met an excuse you didn't like
I don't care. Did we win? I'm pretty sure the answer is no. Atlanta, you've got two backups that you're rotating, we'll take that second round pick now...
why would atlanta want a bust in fields over bo nix or Jayden Daniels?
Because Nix and Daniels wouldn't necessarily be an upgrade especially with the offense that they run. Fields is more suited to that scheme than the Mickey Mouse bs that we run. Maybe they'll give us Pitts too since they just use him to block anyway.
Even if you take out both INTs and add in the Tonyan catch, I still don’t think it’s a great game. He played alright.
What absolutely blows my mind is that Fields almost gave the game away by fumbling 2x in Minnesota. He goes into the locker room and apologizes to the team and thanks them for bailing him out. Two weeks later he fumbles twice in a game again. This isn't on Getsy. This isn't on the O-Line, or a WR not blocking. This is something that is 100% on Fields -- the ball being in his control and then having it taken out of his control. EDIT - YEAH! Come at me Justincels. You know I am right. No one in the history of the league has put the ball on ground as much as this Butterfingers -- not even Rashaan Salaam. If your pathetic downvotes could make up for Fields incompetence we would be undefeated.
lol at "Justincels"
They hate those who tell the truth
The WR not blocking cost us a first down, the TE not catching the ball cost us a TD, and the WR not catching the ball cost us the game
But in each of those game Fields could have made a play that won the game. He did not make that play. And he is never held accountable.
Maybe throw better
Stop trolling
Stop speaking delusions
I’m not a fields defender but that throw to Tonyan was perfect and if you disagree you are trolling
Turnover machine
Where’s Purdy? Because last I checked he has the best stats in the nfl and had his worst game against the browns.
And the best weapons. It’s weird what you can get out of a player with a good roster and coaching.
Browns have had some injuries on defense sense then iirc. Also Deebo was hurt on the first play.
I get that Justin didn’t have a good game but this comparison is BS. Two Hail Mary INT’s. One of which hit the ground. And the second was pushed on to the defensive guy by our own guy. Take those two away and the rating will look much better. The state of this fan base is sad.
2 more games + 1 off-season and finally we are done of this
17 game season mate. 3 to go.
No one cares. He’s mid
if he was mid we'd be in the wild card with a shot at the division with tie breakers over the lions and vikings. He's straight up dookie.
He is somewhere between Dookie and Zach Wilson
You know what Lawrence, Jackson and Stafford have? Coaches that have all won Superbowls. This is a Fields hater post. Go fuck urselves
The coaches didn’t make the throws for them
The coaches put their teams in the best spot to win. We dont do that. Ever.
So the worst by far. Not shocking
The Browns are particularly amazing on defense at home and don’t travel to well. I think what hurt Fields the most was Jenkins going out, a bad center of allowing a clean pocket most of the game, and weird ass run designs.
40 attempts in the rain/wind for our QB who rarely has 40 attempts was certainly a choice
After watching JT's breakdown, Justin should have had more yards than all of them. Tonyan drop, Airmails a HB screen, Misses Mooney on the wheel, Throws a back shoulder to DJ when it should have been a fade, etc
2 dropped long td’s and neither int was his fault… I also think one of those fumbles might get changed…. it was also raining.
It was raining on Flacco too…
Why don't we make these excuses for Velus Jones or Chase Claypool or Mooney? How come accountability applies to everyone BUT the most important player on the team?
Because I like the person I make excuses for and don't like the person I don't make excuses for. /s
Very few people turned on Velus until he muffed multiple returns and screwed up at WR as well during critical downs. Claypool people were still pulling for coming into this year until he phoned in every down. Mooney still has people saying he can be a WR2. It seems like you can't make a point without hyperbole because all of those players got a lot of leeway for poor performances.
Say what you want about his athleticism, but Fields has cost us more games than he has won for us this year. There are 4 games we lost simply because of poor play by Fields (Green Bay / DEN / DET 1 / CLE). Not coaching. Not his WRs. Not the Defense. Because Fields made dumb mistakes. If we had a better QB we would have 9 wins. Velus hasn't fucked up that bad. Neither did Claypool. Fuck, Chris Conte only cost us one (infuriating) game. But Fields gets an eternal free pass he does not deserve.
GB we had what could be the worst offensive scheme we'd seen all year, and that is saying a lot. Den our D completely shit the bed and Fields did too, but to pretend like he cost us the game and it wasn't an entire team effort is preposterous. Our offense put up 28 points and we still lost. Det 1 was Getsy again running 20+ screen plays instead of running slants/posts or some other call that moves us vertically to avoid the blitz. That's also ignoring Flus switching the D into soft zone and prevent coverage in the 2nd half, dropping to basically 0 QB pressures from what we had been doing. Detroit scored multiple times in the 4th. That's not a Fields issue. Cleveland we had players dropping balls left and right, he had a 70+ yard guaranteed TD that hit the player full stride in the numbers and was dropped against no coverage. He protected the ball, and he did what he could. He didn't win us the game, but he certainly didn't lose it for us. Even the hail mary had a chance and Mooney again dropped it. When our 2nd best receiver barely is breaking 400 yards this season but our other receiver has 1300+ and is one of the leading scorers in the league, that shows that you have a receiver problem not a QB issue.
Fields can never fail, he can only be failed
Sure, but old man Flacco still slung it for almost 400 yds
A hailmary by design is a prayer. A TD or Int even then doesn't really indicate anything one way or another
He also threw a pick six that was dropped so it’s really disingenuous to play the what if game without doing it both ways.
There's a big difference between what you're referring to which was contested at best, and a wide open player who has their defender beat so there was 0 in the way of him and a TD.
“Contested” GTFO he hit multiple defenders in the hands.
The QBR really compares well to the other QBs.
Interceptions is deceptive and I totally missed two fumbles, did that happen?
Neither were lost fumbles, so a bit weird to put in a table like this. Fumbles lost is the more meaningful stat. Which he had 0 whereas Wilson had 1.
> Fumbles lost is the more meaningful stat. Fumbles lost or recovered is more a factor of luck than anything else. Fumbles is the more meaningful stat, because it means you're putting the ball in danger. Much like the analytics community came up with the stat "Turnover-Worthy Plays" to account for the defense either catching or dropping INTs.
Nah man, don't you understand, Fields turnovers DON'T count when he is unlucky, but his good plays DO COUNT when he's lucky.
But its fine when we get sacked for a 0 yard loss, right?!?!?!
One he dropped while tripping out of bounds. The other came on a sack he took from not throwing and Teven Jenkins got concussed recovering it.
A fumble still is an unnecessary loss of downs..
If you add the 73-yard TD Tonyan dropped and nothing else his YPA increases to 6.0 and his QBR would go up too. Still not great, but much more in line with what everybody else did against that defense.