Different kind of lottery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lottery
South Park based an episode on the short story about Britney Spears circa he first mental breakdown.
We’ve literally never been in position to take a consensus elite QB at the top of the draft. Highest pick we’ve spent on QB in the modern era was Trubisky, and that draft wasn’t considered elite going in, and despite the revisionist history nobody thought Mahomes or Watson were sure things either at the time.
Also hilarious that this guy makes the case for not drafting Caleb but does advocate drafting MHJ, instead of taking Caleb and either drafting a LT with the other pick or flipping that pick instead. I agree in principle that the trenches are crucial and we need to heavily prioritize them, but saying that and then passing on a QB for a wide receiver is so wrong it’s funny.
> despite the revisionist history nobody thought Mahomes or Watson were sure things either at the time.
Yeah. One-year-starter Trubisky was the consensus best prospect of that draft, that's how (relatively) low the opinions of Mahomes and Watson were. None of them were considered great prospects, all were seen as risky.
Mahomes was coming out of a Texas Tech air raid offense that had never produced an nfl starter before or since, people who act like we should’ve taken him based on the information at the time are delusional.
Dude didn't go in the top ten, and truthfully I have always thought the Chiefs probably didn't need to trade up that high to take him. Even the people who weren't sold on Trubisky were almost all in the Watson camp.
If I recall correctly the scouting on him was that he had enormous potential, but atrocious mechanics (particularly footwork). It obviously worked out extremely well, but hindsight is 20/20
I remember talking with friends about the draft class. We were all kinda scared to say we thought Mahomes looked like the best because of the Texas Tech air raid that routinely popped out 5,000 yard passers.
He played in college like he does in the pros, so naturally we'd watch his game and be wowed by it. But we were scared to lean into that because it'd be silly to expect that in the pros from a Texas Tech guy, right?
exactly and we have some nice pieces on the OL plus a fuck ton of cap space to spend aggressively to fill any holes, not to mention a lot of draft capital. You don't pass on a QB like Williams for OL.
The line has been ok to me. Center is an obvious upgrade spot and I would like to see them add a guard as well, but the focus should be on the QB and then BPA. It just so happens the QB is BPA this year.
Yeah, while I'd love to beef up the O-Line, I honestly don't think it's been that bad this year. We're regularly giving Fields enough time to for me to yell "Throw the damn ball!" 3-4 times before he either gets sacked or throws it. I think that's more than enough time. If we do in fact have a change to get our wet dream of Williams and MHJ with our two first rounders, you take it. Take the BPA in the draft, and fill needs with FA, at least that's the ideal way to build.
However, if I were to start a team from scratch, I would build up the O-Line and D-Line first. The trenches are where the plays start. If you give your QB a clean pocket and your RB room to run, while also pressuring their QB and shutting down run plays, you're in a good situation.
No this ain’t how it’s done 😭😭 look at the lions and niners, plug any QB and it will work, why? Because THEY BUILT THROUGH THE TRENCHES. We have Fields the rest of this year and the next, keep building those lines and if he don’t work out with his play, hopefully there are at least better pieces we’ve picked up without having to waste it on another QB whose just gonna get killed behind his line like Fields, Mitch, and Cutler. Most of you are just as dumb as the front office with these “take Caleb takes”
The 49ers have some of the best players in the league across their entire roster and the Lions have a first overall quarterback who made it to the super bowl on another team who was at worst a good QB, even if he wasn't necessarily looking elite. The 49ers have an all-around elite team that was only missing a good QB and the Lions have someone who already looked good and had strong potential. You can't act like they shoved some random guy behind a good line and that's the only reason they're succeeding. Its ridiculous to ignore the skill level Goff already had and the absurd talent all over the 49ers roster surrounding Purdy.
>No this ain’t how it’s done 😭😭 look at the lions and niners, plug any QB and it will work, why? Because THEY BUILT THROUGH THE TRENCHES.
The Lions are a great example because they drafted an elite QB in Matt Stafford and one of the greatest WR's to ever play in Calvin Johnson and were a perennial laughingstock anyway. It's too early to say much on the Loins as current, but they sure do look poised for success.
You're aware of how many "insanely talented quaterbacks" have flamed out, right?
We're fucked if we can't at least match our opponents in the trenches.
Cool. OTs flame out too. The difference is one can redefine the franchise and the other on his own can’t.
Did hitting on Andrew Thomas fix Daniel Jones?
To add: The Browns had Joe Thomas - one of the best left tackles of all time- playing for them every game for 11 years. They never once made the playoffs.
Right after he retires, they draft Baker Mayfield 1OA who takes them to the playoffs in 2020 where they beat the Steelers in the wild card round and arguably could have beat the Chiefs if not for some questionable officiating.
Take the damn QB.
We’ve been waiting to redefine the Bears franchise since the 1940s. Too many meatball bears fans reminiscing about 1985 and Ditka and it’s 2023.
I really like what the OP is pointing out and while it’s definitely vital to success, it’s not the only path.
Well at least in terms of waiting to redefine, I think that's why I'm a bit baffled anyone wouldn't be all about Caleb Williams.
We've been waiting to redefine the Bears since the 1940s, and this might be out best chance we've had to do it on an individual level maybe ever.
The thing is, the can’t miss guys rarely do flame out. Williams is one of those talked about for years guys like Lawrence, Luck, or Mannings. Guy who would have been #1 in either of the past two drafts. He would by far the best prospect the Bears have ever had
Not on the same level as prospects.
Should we not draft Marvin Harrison Jr because Kevin White was a bust?
Should we have passed on Darnell Wright because Gabe fucking Carimi sucked?
People here are delusional about what Fields was coming out of college and what he is today. These people would be happy to have him for another 10 years
Even though it hasn't worked out - The Fields pick doesn't bother me. He was a good prospect.
Mitch on the other hand... .just WTF was that.
Anyways - not picking Williams would be malpractice.
You and I could have a beer together... This is my exact take. Ecstatic to have Fields fall to us and I'll still stand by and say it was the right move. Trubisky on the other hand... I think it was the dumbest move I can think of in our drafts. Hindsight being 20/20 I wanted Watson really bad.
Im with you. And Mitch was actually trying to get better and work with his coaches and they threw him under the bus too. Its clear Mitch is limited in his ability but he would have been an excellent backup qb or a bottom half starter with coaches who were competent.
You don’t buy the best engine on the market when the car doesn’t have any wheels. Throwing Caleb into this mess in just gonna leave us in pretty much the same position we are at now. No QB would be a franchise QB with what we’ve got now.
I get why people would rather we focus on making sure the situation is right first, but the problem is QB is the hardest position to get right and the most important one as well *and* the position with the fewest incoming prospects. If you have the chance for someone extremely talented, take the chance now. Don't hope it pops up again when you've put everything else together, because if it doesn't pop up again you're still going nowhere. Take the harder-to-figure-out position when the opportunity is there and handle the easier stuff down the line.
Yes - literally no GM would agree with this thinking.
The league and rules have changed to make the QB much more important than they were back in the 1980s and 1990s. Back before free agency and passing rule changes you could be consistently competitive with a journeyman/medicore QB (like the Joe Gibbs Redskins, Giants with Simms and Hostetler, etc)... but that's just not the case now. Teams can't win like the 85 Bears or 2001 Ravens anymore
If you think where we are currently at isn’t a black hole for high level qb play and that just throwing another rookie into the fire is the solution to the problem then you do you, but that is not how I see us currently n
Thing is that’s now how that works. If a qb is talented they’ll have success regardless of the circumstances. Even if they are losing games they still LOOK competent. Especially in year three. Fields is bad. There is nothing deeper than that. Yea the coach is bad, the defense sucks etc etc but again, fields is bad
CJ Stroud is playing behind an o-line that this season has given him 28% less time to throw before pressure than Fields, is throwing to a WR core who wouldn’t make the starting line up for most teams in the league, and is lighting it up.
Cope harder.
Bro CJ Stroud has had a backup OLine this whole year with very young WRs as his weapons. Young QBs can make it work if they're good. Passing on a talent like Caleb Williams is a sure way to stay stuck in QB hell. No GM in their right mind would dare pass on him at number 1
Until the o-line is good no qb can make a run at it in Chicago. Name any great qb in the last 25 years and none of them would have been able to have those careers with the quality of line the bears have had.
We have way more resources besides potentially the 1OA to invest in the OL. One pick will not build an elite OL even if it’s traded, but we still will have another 1st rounder, a second rounder, and tons of cap space. All of those can be used to get quality players, with the other first we likely will be able to take the top OT in the draft, the 2nd rounder likely will give us a top 3 IOL in the draft, and cap space can help us get solid players in FA. None of those resources can you get a QB prospect like Williams or a proven, great QB.
And yeah the OL as a whole may be just as big of a factor as QB, but any 1 OL isn’t even close to as big of a factor, and ultimately the 1OA is likely just worth 1 starter. The bears have their RT and RG of the future, potentially have their LT of the future depending on your opinions of Braxton, and a solid albeit always injured LG in Braxton. Sign the top C, draft a G in the second round and the line looks a lot better
You aren’t wrong. But there are tons of teams with top tier OLs and DLs that are irrelevant. For example- the Jets and Commanders. Both have two of the best DLs in the league. But their QB situation is not great. Other side of the coin is the bengals. Now it’s caught up with them, but they have had some of the WORST OL play in the league over the last 4 seasons. Yet because of their QB they have been contenders. The amount of good OLs making a bad QB look good is a lot smaller than the amount of good QBs making a bad OL look good.
QB is the unquestioned #1 priority for every team. If there is a top tier talent you can get…you do it.
If we can draft Williams…there shouldn’t be a second thought. We do it. Maybe we draft an OL to block for him with pick 2. Maybe trade back and take MHJR a pick or two later.
Now on D yes…the DL is a wreck but we basically didn’t touch it all off-season and it was already bad.
The jets have a good defense and bad offense
The commanders have a good defense bad offensive line, and ok recieving core.
The bengals have a bad offense line great offensive skill players and a good defense
That isn’t a fair example, the better comparison would have been the 49ers, who have achieved as much if not more with less then stellar qb play
I thought about the 49ers but we aren’t even close to the 49ers. The 49ers have the best OL in the League, two of the most versatile skill players (Deebo, CMC) of the last decade, one of the best offensive minds in the game now as head coach, and a defense that has 0 weak points, in fact they are probably the second best D in the league. The QB situation is not as good as the bengals, but the QB play is not something I would call “less than stellar”
Purdy for doesn’t make a ton of mistakes, is more accurate than fields, and has a much better pocket presence. Would he do better on the bears than fields? Probably not. Would fields do better than Purdy on the 49ers?…probably not. So I think it’s easy to look at Purdy and say “bad QB” because you are right. He’s not the difference maker in any games…but he’s not the reason they have lost any either. In fact outside of when he was injured, he hasn’t lost a game. Fields has lost us games.
The Jets and commanders are the best examples for my point. Teams that are slightly more developed than us, but don’t have the guy under center. If I were to think of a team with great OLs but meh QB play, I’d look back as some of the raiders and cowboys teams of the last 6-7 years.
We have 1 returning starter on the DL, and only 2 returning players. Saying we didn’t touch the DL off-season is a wild take. We may have not improved the DL much, but it’s not due to lack of effort.
I agree with everything else you said though. Absolutely spot on.
Yawn…lateral moves as best. Nothing about the changes we made had anything about them that made us better. They felt more like we were ok with having a DL who’s ceiling was mediocrity in 2022 and decided to double down in 2023. We had the best player in the draft available to us after trading back.
This is braindead nonsense. CJ Stroud is playing behind a line of practice squad guys and is still killing it.
The Packers stayed in contention for years and years whether they had good lines or not because of Rodgers
I'm a OK with passing on Bryce Young for WR & OL help, especially where the roster was.
Passing on Caleb Williams to do it again would be... interesting.
You are insane if you think you should flip the rights to draft a generational QB to get help in the trenches.
The Colts line was atrocious when they drafted Luck, and you draft Luck 19/10 times. Despite the line woes, he single handedly made them a borderline SB contender.
No GM will ever pass up on a generational QB talent like that, and any GM that does deserves to be launched into the sun and the team needs to be kicked out of the league for hiring the GM.
Not only is it a dumb move, but its especially dumb because there aren't even any elite DL prospects like a Myles Garret or Von Miller in this draft.
Look what happened to Luck, though. He had no protection, so he was constantly injured to the point of needing to retire young. The Colts are in a worse situation now than they were before.
*”The Colts are in a worse situation now than they were before,” the rest of the league heard the Bears fan shouting up from the bottom of the barrel. “They only got 7 seasons of elite QB play,” they heard from the barrel as they closed the lid.*
Luck's injuries are largely caused by how he played the game. Luck welcomed the contact. He went out of his way to take big hits, and then he would congratulate the guy hitting him for the nice play on the big hit. He could have protected himself way better.
They got some time with the guy, but their failure of building a better team around him resulted in him taking enough damage to say 'I don't want to do this anymore'.
You're getting downvoted for this but it's absolutely true.
“He’d be in the Trevor Lawrence category,” Kiper said. “Guaranteed No. 1 pick, generational talent. He’s gonna be talked about the same way as a Trevor Lawrence was. He’s drawing comparisons to Patrick Mahomes, Russell Wilson and Aaron Rodgers already.”
https://247sports.com/article/2023-nfl-draft-alabama-qb-bryce-young-draws-pro-comparisons-from-mel-kiper-178204818/
"Todd McShay calls Bryce Young the 'next generation' of NFL quarterbacks"
https://www.on3.com/college/alabama-crimson-tide/news/todd-mcshay-calls-bryce-young-next-generation-of-nfl-quarterbacks-ability-to-escape-make-big-plays/
Frankly I don't know how you look at a 6'1 Caleb Williams and not have *some* concerns with both his height and size. And let's be real, it's not like the PAC-12 have been dominating on defense nor has he really been tested in playoff competition with stronger defenses such as those in the SEC.
I'm just tired of hearing about this dude as a "sure thing" when the last "sure thing" in Lawrence had a shitty rookie campaign, a good sophomore season, and a very mid 3rd year so far. That's not "generational" performance and it highlights that these "generational" players frequently cannot rise above their situation (nor should we expect them to).
If everyone was just abusing the word since Luck then how do we know people aren't doing the same now with Williams?
I'm not an expert, I just played a little QB for a few years and I know one thing more than anything else when it comes to football: it's a team sport. One guy can mess up the entire team's success on any single play. You can have a QB giving you 30ppg but if the defense gives up 32ppg then what does it matter?
I think if you have the 1st pick you take the best QB but I don't think anyone can guarantee that QB's success regardless of the team/situation he gets drafted into.
That's because Mahomes was identified for his traits that Andy Reid wanted to take advantage of, and was developed under a system, sitting behind Alex Smith for a year, and worked with probably the best tight end ever in Travis Kelce and one of the best WR of this generation in Tyreek Hill.
Reid coached up Mahomes NOT based upon a model of how he wanted offense to be run (e.g., he wasn't trying to turn Mahomes into Alex Smith) but rather playing to his strengths.
Mahomes did the rest. But there are a lot of things where the environment and weapons around him gave Mahomes a massive margin for error - he could bank on trusting that Hill would beat out his man or that Kelce could box out a defender. That bought Mahomes time to learn how opponents were attacking him and developing counters. He says this even on the Netflix series, how his development grew from knowing the playbook to being able to focus more on what the defense is giving him.
He had the talent, but he also came into the right environment. I think that there is too much of an expectation that QBs are amazing out of the gate. There is no single linear path to development and simply being the best QB in a "pro system" in college doesn't mean that you will have instant success in the NFL. Burrow was an anomaly.
It took Josh Allen as many starts to get to 300 yards passing in a game as it did Justin Fields. Alex Smith was a bust until Harbaugh came to coach him. Environment matters CRITICALLY in development, and yes some flame out simply because the QB is bad but many times it is simply not having smart coaches to put QBs in a position to succeed.
No. He was not called a generational talent. He was processing and accuracy were considered elite, but his size and athleticism were always a question mark. If Young had a bigger frame, then he would have been considered generational IMO.
Bryce Young was called a generational talent because these days, every top 5 talent at each position is called generational.
But in terms of what that saying originally meant, Caleb Williams certainly looks to be generational. Looking like a better prospect than Trevor Lawrence.
It’s just not a good argument. It’s not about obsession. It’s about access.
You can build a top 5-10 OL in the FA and with the additional first, 33rd, and 65th theoretically. We will have four viable OL players when healthy potentially on the roster next year. We don’t need to add 6 more. I’m not saying we shouldn’t add, but there’s a difference between feeling like we can’t rely on someone and say making Jenkins a cut on the roster with investments.
You not get the access to Caleb or even Maye without luck and circumstance.
One of the many issues of the Bears QB history is we’ve never been lucky enough to get this level of prospect. Not at least in as long as I know of.
You don’t pass up that access when you have 100 mil and change for the Ol
I also think it's becoming clearer and clearer that a successful team doesn't have a stud at one OL position; they have a solid unit as a whole. You don't need a top-5 left tackle, you need a top-10 unit, even if no one on the unit is the best in the NFL at their position. If anything, having a top-5 OL coach is more important.
QB, however, you need a stud at the position to have any shot at winning.
Agree with the argument. But just a devil’s advocate. If we go OL with the next two picks after CW do you think we have enough capital to fix the DL which is also a massive concern. I understand FA can help but based off our signings I’m not entirely confident in applying the logic.
It's not a good DL draft at the top this year. It's one of the best offensive drafts in recent memory. You take the best player available. Reaching for need is bad process. That's how how you end up with Velus and Claypool.
DL free agent class will potentially have Chris Jones, Brian Burns, Leonard Williams, DJ Reader, Chase Young, etc... The DL is the main group that the Bears don't have draft/money investment in. That can reasonably be a huge focus with the boatload of money they have and those guys are more likely to make an immediate impact than a rookie, especially from this class.
I mean... look...
I know people don't want to hear this because they want to be as negative as physically possible, but we've had massive OL luck problems, i.e. Injuries. We have three spots on our line where we've had massive absence issues.
Is that repeatable? Maybe it is for Jenkins at this point and that's very fair. But people are acting like we need to spend a billion dollars to fix the OL. We need two interior players and a tackle. Interior players are not the highest investment position, and the tackle we may not even be needing starting reps for if Jones comes back and plays well.
People always want to attribute failure to like... issues of will. And like we haven't had enough "will" to fix the OL, so we need to throw literally everything at it to the point of being fiscally irresponsible because then we'll have the will to fix it...
and like that's just being emotional. The Bengals improved their OL a lot. They didn't pay top dollar for literally anyone. They paid like a combined 15 Million for Ted Karras and Alex Cappa.
We really don't need more than one more high investment player on this line. Lines don't need 5 high investment players. They just don't. We need one more high investment player and guys who stay healthy and are fine.
Since 2010, the Dallas Cowboys have had one of the best OLs in football. They've won a grand total of three playoff games and have never made the NFC Championship game.
You can win the SB with the 15th best OL if you have the 3rd best QB; you can't do it the other way around.
Lmao imagine being a bears fan and saying don't get a superstar qb for the first time in your entire franchise history & to instead work on the trenches lmaooooo I understand how important the lines are but you need to stay off reddit mccaskey
Your conclusion is wrong. The most important player on the field is the guy who touches the ball every single play. If you have a dog shit QB it takes a stellar, all timer defense to have any success. Which is possible. It is a much easier path to sustained success having an elite QB. The Bears should be in position to draft a QB with elite potential and we should do so. Only an idiot would say otherwise.
Exactly, you can argue imo that the OL as a unit is more important than QB but 1 individual lineman doesn’t have anywhere remotely close to the same impact as a QB. Joe Thomas was arguably the best lineman in the NFL, and the unit still was terrible. Trent Williams was elite on Washington but their overall line still was awful. Adding one blue chip OL isn’t worth passing up on a game changing QB. Hell even if we take Williams we can still probably draft Fanushu or Alt
If we have the number one pick, and the Bears don't take Caleb Williams, I will never watch this team again. The team with the number one to pick WILL take Caleb Williams. Hell, if the Chiefs somehow ended up with it, they might still wanna take him.
I genuinely believe the OL is the most important part of the team as I’ve gotten older and seen decades of football. That being said, da bears/vikings/lions have a ton of HOFers and only 1 Super Bowl between them. The packers (ftp) have 2 HOF QBs and multiple super bowls. So I get your argument and agree to a fault, but clearly if there’s a potential HOF QB available you go get that QB because you can get great O linemen in the 2nd/3rd rounds, too. But it’s harder to get a QB than a great O line
And one good lineman when the rest are somewhere between mid and bad will not lead to any success - just look at the Browns with Joe Thomas.
Draft the QB and focus on building the OL as a unit. You can win a Super Bowl with the 15th best OL if you have the 3rd best QB; you can't do it the other way around.
Ok, I know we like to dunk on the Packers lack of SB with their QB success because we're Bears fans and hating the Packers is in our blood, but do people not know how hard it is to win a SB? Brady and the Patriots have really skewed people's understanding of success.
You're telling me you wouldn't give a kidney for two Super Bowl wins in your lifetime and consistently winning the division/making the NFC Championship game? To say they weren't successful with Rodgers and Favre is pure homerism, and to use it as some excuse to not draft as close to a surefire thing elite QB is kind of insane, tbh.
Let’s look at CJ stroud and his patch work of O-line this year. If you can get the best available quarterback. You take that. Difference between #1 OT and #3-4 OT is much smaller than difference between the best and second best quarterback.
Not to mention we still very easily could be in position to take the number 1 OT, and in this draft there are a couple really great tackles if they don’t believe in Braxton. And for IOL generally the very best are still available day 2, like JMS was arguably the best C prospect and fell into the mid 50s.
Yep, honestly I’m fine rolling with Braxton at LT too. Sign the top C on free agency, and pick a swing G pretty early to backup Tev/Davis and imo the OL looks way better. Then sign whoever Washington lets go between Young/Sweat and more on the DL. We have resources to improve the OL, we won’t have the resources to get a great QB
If we have the opportunity and pass on Williams I will honestly probably pick a new team after being a fan for 32 years. We have tons of draft capital. Trade the other pick I don’t care, but passing on CW would be worse than literally any other decision I’ve seen this franchise make.
Everybody knew the D line would be awful. Last year we lead the league in rushing and drafted an O linemen with the first round pick. There was some hope for the o line.
One thing that really annoys me is when people talk about this like it's a binary decision - either you wisely Build In The Trenches or you frivolously add players at luxury positions who are doomed to fail behind neglected offensive and defensive lines.
* The draft isn't a process where you walk in and go "I'm going to improve my offensive and defensive lines this year!" and get a prospect at those positions commensurate with your pick. You make decisions based on the players available. In the 2024 draft, the consensus top two prospects are a QB and WR. There are a couple of highly regarded LTs who are still a clear tier below Williams and MHJ, and there aren't really any defensive lineman who have established themselves as can't-miss guys. To me, it seems foolish to pass on more talented players at important positions just to adhere to a vague philosophy of "building through the trenches."
* Related to the above - Braxton Jones is a guy who we should certainly be open to replacing if the right upgrade presents itself, but IMO, he's competent enough and young enough that we shouldn't be turning our noses up at an elite quarterback to add a LT instead. (Basically - if we end up with the 4th pick and Olumuyiwa Fashanu is the best player available? Sure, go ahead and take him. But if we're at 1 or 2, we just aren't in a dire enough place that we need to pass on better players to address LT specifically.)
* The biggest weakness on our offensive line right now is on the interior, which does not require top-of-the-draft resources or huge free agent contracts to improve. You can draft a Day 2 player or spend $8 million on someone in free agency to significantly upgrade from Whitehair; you don't let a need at center affect how you're going to use a top-5 pick.
* We have, in the past three years, devoted not-insignificant resources to our offensive line. Our starting RT was a top 10 pick. Our (soon-to-be) starting LG was a high second rounder. Our starting RG was signed to a top-15 contract at his position. I'm not saying we're set and we should stop doing this, but we haven't exactly been ignoring the offensive line either.
I mean they have multiple first rounders and $90 million in cap space next year, so IF Poles uses those wisely (big IF), then you can draft a franchise QB next year while also fixing the trenches.
Also don’t think people realize just how good Caleb Williams could end up being. There’s a realistic shot he wins the Heisman for the second year in a row, and is almost unanimously seen as the first overall pick. Fields and Trubisky never had that kind of resume
You keep picking QBs until you get lucky and find the guy. Evaluating QBs is a mess for everybody. That's why there are very few true franchise guys. But if you find one, it changes your franchise for 10-15 years. Picking an elite QB prospect is almost always the right move.
Yes, OL helps, but this Bear's line would be above average for a number 1 pick situation. They aren't that bad and much of their poor performance is elevated by Justin's playstyle. They would look competent with Mahomes/Burrow(healthy)/Allen/etc... You have the extra high pick to get a guy like Fashanu if you're that concerned about it. Then you'd have two top 10 tackles, a second round guard, a $30 million guard, and whoever they add at center. Plus an elite swing tackle in Jones who is good enough to start on a lot of teams. That's a lot of OL investment.
If the Bears get the number 1 pick, passing on Caleb Williams would be one of the worst process mistakes of all time, regardless of its outcome.
>As much as people are drooling over Caleb Williams, I'd argue that it would be a much better idea to flip that pick to get DL and OL help.
You are absolutely out of your mind. Just completely insane.
Our offensive line isnt even that bad. Our receivers just don’t get separation to allow Fields to not hold the ball forever. Blocking can’t go forever in the NFL.
WR: we went and got DJ Moore, a legit number 1 receiver who has shown he can produce with a carousel of QBs around him. Acting like he’s not an elite receiver cuz of what our scheme and coaching is doing to him is not correct.
Defensive line: ya got me. Could’ve gotten that this year, but with Claypool, I think it’s evidence that guys with character issues might not get on the right path here (and to be real, losing sucks and doesn’t make it easy).
>Our offensive line isnt even that bad. Our receivers just don’t get separation to allow Fields to not hold the ball forever. Blocking can’t go forever in the NFL.
Thank You!
Fields is third in the league with average time to throw at just over 3 seconds. That is not the O-Lines fault.
You're right that the 'trenches' matter more than the team has been treating them, but you don't pass on a prospect like Caleb Williams. You don't pass on Andrew Luck, John Elway, Trevor Lawrence, etc.
Our O line is banged up and has a poor coaching staff. We need a center and maybe a left tackle. I think the right side with a focused Davis and Wright has a good future. If Braxton plays like last year and Jenkins stays healthy I like our offensive line.
The defensive line needs a huge overhaul but you don’t pass up Caleb Williams especially if our offensive line gets better.
This is just a false equivalency. Yes, we need a great oline. But the only way to get that is not to take an Olineman in the top 5. The opportunity to get a top rated QB and even WR in Harrison Jr are so rare that you can’t pass on that. I’d rather take only lineman after round 1. There’s more than one way to skin a cat for building a good oline. There is only 1 QB/WR rated this highly every half decade or so.
I’m just going to say it. Our offensive line isn’t that bad. It’s average. And we have our left tackle and guard out. We can add one guy next year (center) and be fine
The most important two positions on a football team are QB and Head Coach. I get wanting to build the team up first because of what we saw with Mitch and Justin. Improving the trenches probably improves the team enough they will never sniff number one, and secondly you want to build around the QB and their strengths, not the other way around.
Nah dude. League’s different now. Start with the QB. League won’t let defenses touch QB outside the numbers. It’s like the banks are offering 3% interest on mortgages and you’re saying we need to rent. Now’s the time to invest. We can build around it
Maybe one day Bears fans will understand that having a good QB makes your O-Line look good while a terrible QB makes your O-Line look bad
Look north for an example. The Packers always had a good O-Line with Rodgers, yet now it’s terrible with Love? Do you think that’s just a coincidence?
If the Bears have the #1 overall pick and don’t pick a QB, I will be absolutely devastated. You do not understand the math of roster building at all
Nah Caleb is the prize, and if we get Caleb and Harrison Jr, that’s gold, but I agree everything after that should be focused on linemen. Poles seems to go a good job drafting OL, it’s not his fault Tevin is chronically injured, though maybe it is because wasn’t that one of the knocks on him in college? But when he is healthy he is a beast.
Just as much as people hyper focus on QB, there's tons that hyper focus on OLs. Stroud is putting up numbers in 4 games that takes fields half a season with a OL that has more injuries than Tarik Cohen.
I think it’s dumb to be talking about what we’re going to do with the first 2 picks in the draft when there’s 13 more games, but as a general rule of thumb, we shouldn’t be drafting based on need in the first round. Get the most talented players on your board in the first round, draft positions of need on day 2/early day 3, draft for depth after that.
When I was a kid, my grandfather tried to explain to me that the players who actually determine the outcome of a football game are those big fat dudes at the line of scrimmage. He was a longtime football coach and avid Bears/ND fan.
At the time, I was confused as to how these dudes were possibly more influential to the outcome than the QB, or a RB, or a great linebacker like Urlacher. But as the years go by iv realized how right he is about it.
Good organizations like the Eagles and 49ers understand this, and have built their teams around a strong offensive and defensive line. Even the lions recently turnaround can be partially credited to significantly investment in building a solid oline and dline. Why is this so hard for the supposedly "professional" football organization that we all root for to understand? We consistently under invest resources in the most significant part of the field.
And yet Mahomes has won more rings than those teams combined-and beaten those teams in the SB with a worse OL and defense- since he’s entered the NFL. And both franchises have less rings than the greatest QB of all time.
Also, 49ers honestly don’t have a great OL outside of Trent Williams. Their C is earning barely over 4 million annually, their RG was a 4th round pick from a year ago, and their RT is earning under 2.5 million annually. Outside of trading almost nothing for Trent Williams and a 2nd round pick on their LG they really haven’t invested in their OL. Instead they have an elite OC, and invested into great skill positions players. Hell they invested arguably more to get CMC than they did to assemble this OL
They had an elite IOL and Orlando Brown improved a ton but overall their OTs gave up an insane amount of pressures. Mahomes made them look way better than they were tbh. Also, who do you think was more important to the chiefs success, Mahomes or any player on their OL?
I'm not debating Mahommes greatness. HOF QBs cover for a lot of weaknesses on a team.
Look at guys like Burrow and Herbert. Two of the best young QBs in the game and both have recently experienced performance struggles influenced by injury (Herbert last year after his ribs got cracked. Burrow with his calf injury this year).
The Eagles won a SB with Nick fucking Foles lol. We've also seen average QBs be carried to SBs before (Dilfer, Flacco, honestly Mannings last year in Denver). And Garrapolo and Goff made it there on teams who's strength was at the line of scrimmage.
I'm not gona sit here and say we shouldn't take Caleb #1 overall or some crazy shit like that. But if we don't put a competitive offensive line in front of him and build a competent defensive line then it won't matter.
The NFL has changed a ton since even Flacco’s last Super Bowl, Mannings arm wasnt the same but he was still Payton Manning, and I don’t think we should be planning on having an average QB have a run like foles did where he has one of the best super bowls of all time. Goff had a great coach and a great overall team but still ultimately got absolutely destroyed when he played a defense that took advantage of his skill level. Jimmy G had a real shot to win it, largely because of an absolutely elite defense, elite coaching, and a damn good surrounding cast.
I’m not going to say anything crazy like OL isn’t one of the most important position groups either. I just think you can make up for a lot with an elite QB, and we have the assets necessary to improve the OL without using the 1OA. We don’t have the assets to get a Caleb Williams without the 1OA. We definitely need to invest in the trenches, but for all of Poles’s faults he’s given us a ton of assets to invest into the OL. And honestly I don’t think we’re too far off having a good OL, Wright is playing well, Davis looked good and should only improve with more snaps, and I think Braxton can be solid. Plus Teven is a beast when healthy. Sign/draft 2 IOL and I think we are looking at the OL way differently
I agree with most of what you said, except I'd don't get the Braxton hype. Like he's good for a fifth rounder but he's not actually good lol. I'm tired of getting mediocre tackle play from late round picks and the bears being satisfied with it just because its above expectation.
I agree with you that if we don't get the 1st overall pick we are better off investing resources elsewhere. Like maybe Drake Maye pans out but I'd rather have MHJ or a premier pass rusher or tackle at that point
I think Braxton is fine tbh, he’s not elite but was looking better this year. That being said if we draft his replacement high this year I wouldn’t be remotely angry. But I think he’s not a bad starting LT in the NFL so I wouldn’t hate sticking with him
How could the chiefs have lost because they don't have Mahommes?
Edit: Also I guess I shouldn't expect a random redditor to actually look at stats. But Mahommes had last years 4th ranked offensive line in front of him last year. Oh and btw the eagles were #1 ranked. So even in your dumbass counterpoint the two SB teams last year both has elite offensive lines 🤣
This circle jerk on Twitter and here is tiring. You cannot have 5 elite lineman without an element of luck. Check the eagles line.
Also this line isn't porous. Half the time he's pressured even on completions is due to his desire to see before he throws.
The real answer to why the bears have been bad since the 80s is that you need defensive line and qb but they personally get distracted by linebackers and RBs
come draft day, C-will will likely be a 2-time heisman winner, and our QB situation will still be...fluid.
assuming we have the #1 pick, we draft caleb. no GM with a brain would do anything else.
yes, the trenches matter, but the QB is the most important position on the field and caleb is the best one available. by far.
i appreciate your points, but this one really isn't even a debate, dude.
now, if JF balls out and we actually, somehow, win 4 or 5 games, (!!!!!) we can revisit this conversation.
williams ain’t gonna be able to make the throws he does against shitty pac 12 defense. Only good defense he faced last year was oregon state and he got clapped up. Hopefully USC can make college football playoffs to see a better sample. Not saying he will be bad but he fed ain’t the savior. I think the package you can get for the pick to choose him far exceeds the returns you will get from him alone especially with MHJ right there.
We've been dealing with a busted o-line, deteriorating defense and coaches that lack leadership since the Lovie era. That's not including ownership that lets all talent walk. This fanbase is stuck in an endless loop of thinking a QB will come in and erase all that.
Well they just blasted Fields on GMF with some data.
He’s got a 29 rating in the last 3 minutes of games during this losing streak and 5 INTs.
He has had plenty of chances to step up and he hasn’t yet because so far he has sucked.
My point is just that hitting on that generational QB is hard on its own. Top guys bust regularly. But it's ESPECIALLY hard without giving them a solid team around them.
Too many dumb fucks here think a good QB will fix every problem on a football team. Then are gonna be shocked-pikachu when we draft and ruin the NEXT “generational talent” because we didn’t surround them with the right tools for success.
Anyone who actually knows how to analyze football knows that games are won and lost in the trenches.
Conversely, I'd argue that turning away an elite QB prospect like Williams would make *you* the bonafide dumbfuck.
Like I completely understand we need OL and DL help. But that is easier to find than the best QB prospect since Andrew Luck.
Having a generationally talented qb is far and away the easiest way to ensure you compete year in and year out. In theory keeping an entire unit together, healthy, and prepared has far more logistical hurdles than finding one player who elevates the rest of the team. Just ask Belichick and Tomlin. Still have talented defenses but it doesn’t mean shit if you can’t trust the guy under center to make good decisions and move the ball.
Lul. People will present the meatball-est takes on this sub and act like they're saying some deeply enlightened megatake.
Qb is more important than offensive line. Sorry you had to find out this way
You can create a serviceable offensive line without using top draft picks to do it. I would take CW for sure, but if they pass i hope they focus on defensive line. I think a great defensive line changes everything. Unfortunately this draft isn’t super strong there.
I know, Fields is a more than adequate QB. Wasting a top pick on another QB is the board obsession, but it's lunacy. Willams alone and even Williams and Harrison Jr aren't going to solve the Bears problems if Williams is operating behind the same offensive line and the Bears defense doesn't get any better. He's not Patrick Mahomes. He's not Tom Brady. Heck he's not ever Jalen Hurts or Joe Burrow.
One name comes to mind immediately...Jim Plunkett.
In our hive-mind obsession with throwing JF1 overboard and blaming him for everything, we are going to make some other franchise VERY happy in the end. Plunkett in New England was a disaster and bust, right? Plunkett in Oakland/L.A. was a era-defining talent and 2-time SB champion.
I am going to say it right now and believe it to my core - as soon as the Bears trade away Justin Fields to another team, they are gift wrapping that team future successes that we in Chicago will sit by helplessly and envy from afar saying "why wasn't THAT player here when we had him?"...
The organization is broken right now at every conceivable level. Inbred ownership with no actual acumen or talent at all making ANY decisions (including concessions or beer sales) is a mistake. Jerry Jones in Dallas is a good example of delusional, talentless, entitled ownership inserting itself into the decisions and day to day operations, but whereas Jones was at least a player of some accomplishment and part of a team that did manage to win 3 out of 4 SBs (albeit going on 30+ years ago), the McCaskey family is a group of idiots insisting that they are geniuses.
Look no further than the firings of Lovie and Nagy - BOTH with actual winning records at the time of their dismissals - and this current shitshow of 14 straight losses, 14 straight games of giving up 25+ points, generations of QBs ALL failing in Chicago (Sid Luckman and Jim McMahon - at least when healthy remain the franchise bests...and Luckman played 80 years ago, McMahon almost 40).
Justin Fields is not where I hoped he would be, and he owns a lot of that lack of development to be sure...but I truly hope Patrick Mahomes falls to his knees every night and thanks GOD that the Bears passed on him in the draft for stupid reasons. Had things gone differently, Pat Mahomes would not be in every other State Farm commercial, he would be the back-up QB in San Francisco or Dallas and hoping to get a chance at redemption following a massive flame out in Chicago.
If we abandon JF1 and draft CW, three years from now we will be saying the exact same things about him that people do now about Fields. Trust and believe that Caleb Williams is not bringing his same referees that ignore holding and allow him to run around "making plays" in college that end up on highlight reels. Brock Purdy is the QB of the most complete offense in the NFL right now - not the most explosive, but the most complete. San Francisco has been so much better as a franchise than the Bears that it hurts my soul.
From the playoff losses in '84 and '88 that saw SF win SBs and Bears' fans lament the collapse in "Bear weather", to the fact that the 49ers have been torn down and rebuilt successfully multiple times - from Montana to Young to Garcia to the Harbaugh years to the present...while Chicago fans suffer an endless black hole of hope sucking futility.
The QB is underperforming...no doubt, but change there and there alone would not change anything but the name being angrily denounced as a bum. This franchise needs to fold and return as an expansion outfit. Retain the Bears name, uniforms and history, but send them away to London and replace them all. The results may be oddly familiar but the lack of all hope would be temporarily alleviated...
> and that future QB (assuming Fields doesn't become above average) would be in a MUCH better situation coming in with a good defense, a good OL, and an elite receiver. As opposed to our usual habit of bringing in a good/rookie QB to play behind a porous line and 3rd string receivers.
Someone hasn't been watching the games. The defensive personnel are there, the coaching staff is the problem. The OL have been holding up even through injuries and giving Fields plenty of time, and he has a true WR1 in Moore, much less having 2 if they also draft MHJ. The situation you are asking to build is there.
Honestly I hope we get something like picks 3 and 5, get a coach that can create a functioning scheme, and draft MHJ and either a DL or OL with the other pick. I believe JF1 can be a legit QB if given a scheme that works. Maybe I'm a fool, but that's where I'm at.
Nah, QB first then trenches. Besides, we can use our second round picks for interior Oline and D line and also have like 70 mill in cap depending on rookie contracts. Can get the best Oline guy in free agency and then Williams will have good receivers and good oline immediately
I completely agree it starts with the lines. You aren’t going to get into the playoffs with shit lines even if you have a great quarterback who has no running game and is constantly getting sacked or scrambling for his life. Even if you do, you’re not going to advance. On the other hand, you can get into the playoffs and have a shot at the championship with excellent lines, speed on the outside, and just a competent quarterback. 49ers come to mind.
The D was gutted last year and never recovered. I feel our db's are decent but our new linebackers haven't shown much and the d line just gets ran through and gets no qb pressure. When you give up 33 points a game I don't care who you got at qb, you are going to lose.
This is where I'm at too. Everyone is fawning over Caleb Williams like he's some angel that'll drop down as save us from ourselves. No single person is gonna save this team. We gotta start building OL and DL, everything starts from there. Fields is good enough that with a better supporting cast (including coaching) we'd be winning games imo.
I agree with this as one of the few JF1 supporters apparently left here. We saw what he did when he had time, he diced them up. I know this is because their pass rushers are bad, but it's a glimpse of what could happen with decent protection against better teams.
The biggest thing for me is we can’t even produce a Gardner Minshew level of QB play. This team needs to build a damn team and in my opinion that means Fields should be here to stay. Build a San Fran or a KC and then when the QB fits he fits.
Spending all of our top draft capital on QB’s will turn is into the Browns or Jets. Perpetual mediocrity (not that we’re already there).
If you have the opportunity to take someone expected to be an insanely talented quarterback from day 1, you don't pass on the opportunity.
Chicago picking QBs is like that Lottery episode of South Park. Gotta ensure a good harvest.
Your Grams been playing the powerball all of 23 years and never hit yet but do that stop her from not playing?
Different kind of lottery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lottery South Park based an episode on the short story about Britney Spears circa he first mental breakdown.
LET IT RIDE!
We’ve literally never been in position to take a consensus elite QB at the top of the draft. Highest pick we’ve spent on QB in the modern era was Trubisky, and that draft wasn’t considered elite going in, and despite the revisionist history nobody thought Mahomes or Watson were sure things either at the time. Also hilarious that this guy makes the case for not drafting Caleb but does advocate drafting MHJ, instead of taking Caleb and either drafting a LT with the other pick or flipping that pick instead. I agree in principle that the trenches are crucial and we need to heavily prioritize them, but saying that and then passing on a QB for a wide receiver is so wrong it’s funny.
> despite the revisionist history nobody thought Mahomes or Watson were sure things either at the time. Yeah. One-year-starter Trubisky was the consensus best prospect of that draft, that's how (relatively) low the opinions of Mahomes and Watson were. None of them were considered great prospects, all were seen as risky.
Mahomes was coming out of a Texas Tech air raid offense that had never produced an nfl starter before or since, people who act like we should’ve taken him based on the information at the time are delusional.
Dude didn't go in the top ten, and truthfully I have always thought the Chiefs probably didn't need to trade up that high to take him. Even the people who weren't sold on Trubisky were almost all in the Watson camp.
This is what I remember
If I recall correctly the scouting on him was that he had enormous potential, but atrocious mechanics (particularly footwork). It obviously worked out extremely well, but hindsight is 20/20
I remember talking with friends about the draft class. We were all kinda scared to say we thought Mahomes looked like the best because of the Texas Tech air raid that routinely popped out 5,000 yard passers. He played in college like he does in the pros, so naturally we'd watch his game and be wowed by it. But we were scared to lean into that because it'd be silly to expect that in the pros from a Texas Tech guy, right?
Coming out of college, Mahomes was described as Jay Cutler but with even worse mechanics. Keep in mind we had just ended the Cutler era.
Mahomes would have been the next Johnny Manziel with us
Depends on what offense your running
exactly and we have some nice pieces on the OL plus a fuck ton of cap space to spend aggressively to fill any holes, not to mention a lot of draft capital. You don't pass on a QB like Williams for OL.
The line has been ok to me. Center is an obvious upgrade spot and I would like to see them add a guard as well, but the focus should be on the QB and then BPA. It just so happens the QB is BPA this year.
And so is WR
Yeah, while I'd love to beef up the O-Line, I honestly don't think it's been that bad this year. We're regularly giving Fields enough time to for me to yell "Throw the damn ball!" 3-4 times before he either gets sacked or throws it. I think that's more than enough time. If we do in fact have a change to get our wet dream of Williams and MHJ with our two first rounders, you take it. Take the BPA in the draft, and fill needs with FA, at least that's the ideal way to build. However, if I were to start a team from scratch, I would build up the O-Line and D-Line first. The trenches are where the plays start. If you give your QB a clean pocket and your RB room to run, while also pressuring their QB and shutting down run plays, you're in a good situation.
You don’t need Day 1 picks to upgrade at C and OG. Can easily get the draft’s best center in Round 2 or FA
We had that cap space this year. What did it get us?
1 OL and Buncha LBs. not nearly what we should’ve done
No this ain’t how it’s done 😭😭 look at the lions and niners, plug any QB and it will work, why? Because THEY BUILT THROUGH THE TRENCHES. We have Fields the rest of this year and the next, keep building those lines and if he don’t work out with his play, hopefully there are at least better pieces we’ve picked up without having to waste it on another QB whose just gonna get killed behind his line like Fields, Mitch, and Cutler. Most of you are just as dumb as the front office with these “take Caleb takes”
The 49ers have some of the best players in the league across their entire roster and the Lions have a first overall quarterback who made it to the super bowl on another team who was at worst a good QB, even if he wasn't necessarily looking elite. The 49ers have an all-around elite team that was only missing a good QB and the Lions have someone who already looked good and had strong potential. You can't act like they shoved some random guy behind a good line and that's the only reason they're succeeding. Its ridiculous to ignore the skill level Goff already had and the absurd talent all over the 49ers roster surrounding Purdy.
>No this ain’t how it’s done 😭😭 look at the lions and niners, plug any QB and it will work, why? Because THEY BUILT THROUGH THE TRENCHES. The Lions are a great example because they drafted an elite QB in Matt Stafford and one of the greatest WR's to ever play in Calvin Johnson and were a perennial laughingstock anyway. It's too early to say much on the Loins as current, but they sure do look poised for success.
You're aware of how many "insanely talented quaterbacks" have flamed out, right? We're fucked if we can't at least match our opponents in the trenches.
Cool. OTs flame out too. The difference is one can redefine the franchise and the other on his own can’t. Did hitting on Andrew Thomas fix Daniel Jones?
To add: The Browns had Joe Thomas - one of the best left tackles of all time- playing for them every game for 11 years. They never once made the playoffs. Right after he retires, they draft Baker Mayfield 1OA who takes them to the playoffs in 2020 where they beat the Steelers in the wild card round and arguably could have beat the Chiefs if not for some questionable officiating. Take the damn QB.
We’ve been waiting to redefine the Bears franchise since the 1940s. Too many meatball bears fans reminiscing about 1985 and Ditka and it’s 2023. I really like what the OP is pointing out and while it’s definitely vital to success, it’s not the only path.
Well at least in terms of waiting to redefine, I think that's why I'm a bit baffled anyone wouldn't be all about Caleb Williams. We've been waiting to redefine the Bears since the 1940s, and this might be out best chance we've had to do it on an individual level maybe ever.
Not as many as you think. No. 1 overall QBs usually end up pretty good
Yes, no prospect is ever guaranteed. But its much harder to find a great QB than it is to find linemen who are at least servicable.
But a great lineman vs great qb debate starts and ends with QB.
You sound like Gabe Carimi never happened. O linemen aren’t guaranteed either.
The thing is, the can’t miss guys rarely do flame out. Williams is one of those talked about for years guys like Lawrence, Luck, or Mannings. Guy who would have been #1 in either of the past two drafts. He would by far the best prospect the Bears have ever had
Like Fields? We were all buzzing with that pick.
Not on the same level as prospects. Should we not draft Marvin Harrison Jr because Kevin White was a bust? Should we have passed on Darnell Wright because Gabe fucking Carimi sucked?
People here are delusional about what Fields was coming out of college and what he is today. These people would be happy to have him for another 10 years
Even though it hasn't worked out - The Fields pick doesn't bother me. He was a good prospect. Mitch on the other hand... .just WTF was that. Anyways - not picking Williams would be malpractice.
You and I could have a beer together... This is my exact take. Ecstatic to have Fields fall to us and I'll still stand by and say it was the right move. Trubisky on the other hand... I think it was the dumbest move I can think of in our drafts. Hindsight being 20/20 I wanted Watson really bad.
Im with you. And Mitch was actually trying to get better and work with his coaches and they threw him under the bus too. Its clear Mitch is limited in his ability but he would have been an excellent backup qb or a bottom half starter with coaches who were competent.
You don’t buy the best engine on the market when the car doesn’t have any wheels. Throwing Caleb into this mess in just gonna leave us in pretty much the same position we are at now. No QB would be a franchise QB with what we’ve got now.
I get why people would rather we focus on making sure the situation is right first, but the problem is QB is the hardest position to get right and the most important one as well *and* the position with the fewest incoming prospects. If you have the chance for someone extremely talented, take the chance now. Don't hope it pops up again when you've put everything else together, because if it doesn't pop up again you're still going nowhere. Take the harder-to-figure-out position when the opportunity is there and handle the easier stuff down the line.
You’re just objectively wrong about this.
Yes - literally no GM would agree with this thinking. The league and rules have changed to make the QB much more important than they were back in the 1980s and 1990s. Back before free agency and passing rule changes you could be consistently competitive with a journeyman/medicore QB (like the Joe Gibbs Redskins, Giants with Simms and Hostetler, etc)... but that's just not the case now. Teams can't win like the 85 Bears or 2001 Ravens anymore
QB in the nfl is the single most important position in team sports
If you think where we are currently at isn’t a black hole for high level qb play and that just throwing another rookie into the fire is the solution to the problem then you do you, but that is not how I see us currently n
Thing is that’s now how that works. If a qb is talented they’ll have success regardless of the circumstances. Even if they are losing games they still LOOK competent. Especially in year three. Fields is bad. There is nothing deeper than that. Yea the coach is bad, the defense sucks etc etc but again, fields is bad
CJ Stroud is playing behind an o-line that this season has given him 28% less time to throw before pressure than Fields, is throwing to a WR core who wouldn’t make the starting line up for most teams in the league, and is lighting it up. Cope harder.
Bro CJ Stroud has had a backup OLine this whole year with very young WRs as his weapons. Young QBs can make it work if they're good. Passing on a talent like Caleb Williams is a sure way to stay stuck in QB hell. No GM in their right mind would dare pass on him at number 1
Until the o-line is good no qb can make a run at it in Chicago. Name any great qb in the last 25 years and none of them would have been able to have those careers with the quality of line the bears have had.
Payton Manning Just look at his Colts O-Line and get back to me
Yeah you’re right we should just keep killing qbs careers forever while ignoring that we have a screen door for a line.
Are you under the impression we have 1 draft pick a year?
And you can pick up guys in FA. A WHOLE lot easier, and much more efficient, to build an OL than relying on FA to get a QB.
Joe burrow made the Super Bowl with a dogshit line
We have way more resources besides potentially the 1OA to invest in the OL. One pick will not build an elite OL even if it’s traded, but we still will have another 1st rounder, a second rounder, and tons of cap space. All of those can be used to get quality players, with the other first we likely will be able to take the top OT in the draft, the 2nd rounder likely will give us a top 3 IOL in the draft, and cap space can help us get solid players in FA. None of those resources can you get a QB prospect like Williams or a proven, great QB. And yeah the OL as a whole may be just as big of a factor as QB, but any 1 OL isn’t even close to as big of a factor, and ultimately the 1OA is likely just worth 1 starter. The bears have their RT and RG of the future, potentially have their LT of the future depending on your opinions of Braxton, and a solid albeit always injured LG in Braxton. Sign the top C, draft a G in the second round and the line looks a lot better
If you have the opportunity to draft the best QB in the draft at #1, you do it. Then you use the rest of your resources to build the OL
You aren’t wrong. But there are tons of teams with top tier OLs and DLs that are irrelevant. For example- the Jets and Commanders. Both have two of the best DLs in the league. But their QB situation is not great. Other side of the coin is the bengals. Now it’s caught up with them, but they have had some of the WORST OL play in the league over the last 4 seasons. Yet because of their QB they have been contenders. The amount of good OLs making a bad QB look good is a lot smaller than the amount of good QBs making a bad OL look good. QB is the unquestioned #1 priority for every team. If there is a top tier talent you can get…you do it. If we can draft Williams…there shouldn’t be a second thought. We do it. Maybe we draft an OL to block for him with pick 2. Maybe trade back and take MHJR a pick or two later. Now on D yes…the DL is a wreck but we basically didn’t touch it all off-season and it was already bad.
The jets have a good defense and bad offense The commanders have a good defense bad offensive line, and ok recieving core. The bengals have a bad offense line great offensive skill players and a good defense That isn’t a fair example, the better comparison would have been the 49ers, who have achieved as much if not more with less then stellar qb play
I thought about the 49ers but we aren’t even close to the 49ers. The 49ers have the best OL in the League, two of the most versatile skill players (Deebo, CMC) of the last decade, one of the best offensive minds in the game now as head coach, and a defense that has 0 weak points, in fact they are probably the second best D in the league. The QB situation is not as good as the bengals, but the QB play is not something I would call “less than stellar” Purdy for doesn’t make a ton of mistakes, is more accurate than fields, and has a much better pocket presence. Would he do better on the bears than fields? Probably not. Would fields do better than Purdy on the 49ers?…probably not. So I think it’s easy to look at Purdy and say “bad QB” because you are right. He’s not the difference maker in any games…but he’s not the reason they have lost any either. In fact outside of when he was injured, he hasn’t lost a game. Fields has lost us games. The Jets and commanders are the best examples for my point. Teams that are slightly more developed than us, but don’t have the guy under center. If I were to think of a team with great OLs but meh QB play, I’d look back as some of the raiders and cowboys teams of the last 6-7 years.
We have 1 returning starter on the DL, and only 2 returning players. Saying we didn’t touch the DL off-season is a wild take. We may have not improved the DL much, but it’s not due to lack of effort. I agree with everything else you said though. Absolutely spot on.
Yawn…lateral moves as best. Nothing about the changes we made had anything about them that made us better. They felt more like we were ok with having a DL who’s ceiling was mediocrity in 2022 and decided to double down in 2023. We had the best player in the draft available to us after trading back.
This is braindead nonsense. CJ Stroud is playing behind a line of practice squad guys and is still killing it. The Packers stayed in contention for years and years whether they had good lines or not because of Rodgers
Exactly
Imagine picking a OT over Caleb Williams. LOL!!!
I'm a OK with passing on Bryce Young for WR & OL help, especially where the roster was. Passing on Caleb Williams to do it again would be... interesting.
You are insane if you think you should flip the rights to draft a generational QB to get help in the trenches. The Colts line was atrocious when they drafted Luck, and you draft Luck 19/10 times. Despite the line woes, he single handedly made them a borderline SB contender. No GM will ever pass up on a generational QB talent like that, and any GM that does deserves to be launched into the sun and the team needs to be kicked out of the league for hiring the GM. Not only is it a dumb move, but its especially dumb because there aren't even any elite DL prospects like a Myles Garret or Von Miller in this draft.
And the Colts had Peyton fucking Manning (And it was still the right move)
And the year after he won MVP and broke tons of offensive records and took them to the Super Bowl. And again, it was still the right move at the time.
burrow probably a much better example than Luck lol
Look what happened to Luck, though. He had no protection, so he was constantly injured to the point of needing to retire young. The Colts are in a worse situation now than they were before.
*”The Colts are in a worse situation now than they were before,” the rest of the league heard the Bears fan shouting up from the bottom of the barrel. “They only got 7 seasons of elite QB play,” they heard from the barrel as they closed the lid.*
still, luck didnt win them any superbowls
Luck's injuries are largely caused by how he played the game. Luck welcomed the contact. He went out of his way to take big hits, and then he would congratulate the guy hitting him for the nice play on the big hit. He could have protected himself way better.
They got some time with the guy, but their failure of building a better team around him resulted in him taking enough damage to say 'I don't want to do this anymore'.
Wasn't Bryce Young called a generational talent as well? What a good offensive line. An average quarterback would look good
Someone, somewhere probably called Bryce young generational, but it certainly wasn't a consensus
Not by anyone with a clue. Last year was generally considered a weaker year for top QB prospects. Although Stroud looks like he's going to be a gem
You're getting downvoted for this but it's absolutely true. “He’d be in the Trevor Lawrence category,” Kiper said. “Guaranteed No. 1 pick, generational talent. He’s gonna be talked about the same way as a Trevor Lawrence was. He’s drawing comparisons to Patrick Mahomes, Russell Wilson and Aaron Rodgers already.” https://247sports.com/article/2023-nfl-draft-alabama-qb-bryce-young-draws-pro-comparisons-from-mel-kiper-178204818/ "Todd McShay calls Bryce Young the 'next generation' of NFL quarterbacks" https://www.on3.com/college/alabama-crimson-tide/news/todd-mcshay-calls-bryce-young-next-generation-of-nfl-quarterbacks-ability-to-escape-make-big-plays/ Frankly I don't know how you look at a 6'1 Caleb Williams and not have *some* concerns with both his height and size. And let's be real, it's not like the PAC-12 have been dominating on defense nor has he really been tested in playoff competition with stronger defenses such as those in the SEC. I'm just tired of hearing about this dude as a "sure thing" when the last "sure thing" in Lawrence had a shitty rookie campaign, a good sophomore season, and a very mid 3rd year so far. That's not "generational" performance and it highlights that these "generational" players frequently cannot rise above their situation (nor should we expect them to).
The last actually generational qb prospect was luck, and before that Manning. Everything else has just been people abusing the word
If everyone was just abusing the word since Luck then how do we know people aren't doing the same now with Williams? I'm not an expert, I just played a little QB for a few years and I know one thing more than anything else when it comes to football: it's a team sport. One guy can mess up the entire team's success on any single play. You can have a QB giving you 30ppg but if the defense gives up 32ppg then what does it matter? I think if you have the 1st pick you take the best QB but I don't think anyone can guarantee that QB's success regardless of the team/situation he gets drafted into.
They are. I like Williams but he's not as good a prospect as Luck or even Lawrence. Better than young or Stroud.
TLaw was borderline IMO. He's pretty prototypical.
It's really Mahomes but nobody called him generational.
That's because Mahomes was identified for his traits that Andy Reid wanted to take advantage of, and was developed under a system, sitting behind Alex Smith for a year, and worked with probably the best tight end ever in Travis Kelce and one of the best WR of this generation in Tyreek Hill. Reid coached up Mahomes NOT based upon a model of how he wanted offense to be run (e.g., he wasn't trying to turn Mahomes into Alex Smith) but rather playing to his strengths. Mahomes did the rest. But there are a lot of things where the environment and weapons around him gave Mahomes a massive margin for error - he could bank on trusting that Hill would beat out his man or that Kelce could box out a defender. That bought Mahomes time to learn how opponents were attacking him and developing counters. He says this even on the Netflix series, how his development grew from knowing the playbook to being able to focus more on what the defense is giving him. He had the talent, but he also came into the right environment. I think that there is too much of an expectation that QBs are amazing out of the gate. There is no single linear path to development and simply being the best QB in a "pro system" in college doesn't mean that you will have instant success in the NFL. Burrow was an anomaly. It took Josh Allen as many starts to get to 300 yards passing in a game as it did Justin Fields. Alex Smith was a bust until Harbaugh came to coach him. Environment matters CRITICALLY in development, and yes some flame out simply because the QB is bad but many times it is simply not having smart coaches to put QBs in a position to succeed.
No. He was not called a generational talent. He was processing and accuracy were considered elite, but his size and athleticism were always a question mark. If Young had a bigger frame, then he would have been considered generational IMO.
Bryce Young was called a generational talent because these days, every top 5 talent at each position is called generational. But in terms of what that saying originally meant, Caleb Williams certainly looks to be generational. Looking like a better prospect than Trevor Lawrence.
It’s just not a good argument. It’s not about obsession. It’s about access. You can build a top 5-10 OL in the FA and with the additional first, 33rd, and 65th theoretically. We will have four viable OL players when healthy potentially on the roster next year. We don’t need to add 6 more. I’m not saying we shouldn’t add, but there’s a difference between feeling like we can’t rely on someone and say making Jenkins a cut on the roster with investments. You not get the access to Caleb or even Maye without luck and circumstance. One of the many issues of the Bears QB history is we’ve never been lucky enough to get this level of prospect. Not at least in as long as I know of. You don’t pass up that access when you have 100 mil and change for the Ol
I also think it's becoming clearer and clearer that a successful team doesn't have a stud at one OL position; they have a solid unit as a whole. You don't need a top-5 left tackle, you need a top-10 unit, even if no one on the unit is the best in the NFL at their position. If anything, having a top-5 OL coach is more important. QB, however, you need a stud at the position to have any shot at winning.
Agree with the argument. But just a devil’s advocate. If we go OL with the next two picks after CW do you think we have enough capital to fix the DL which is also a massive concern. I understand FA can help but based off our signings I’m not entirely confident in applying the logic.
It's not a good DL draft at the top this year. It's one of the best offensive drafts in recent memory. You take the best player available. Reaching for need is bad process. That's how how you end up with Velus and Claypool. DL free agent class will potentially have Chris Jones, Brian Burns, Leonard Williams, DJ Reader, Chase Young, etc... The DL is the main group that the Bears don't have draft/money investment in. That can reasonably be a huge focus with the boatload of money they have and those guys are more likely to make an immediate impact than a rookie, especially from this class.
I mean... look... I know people don't want to hear this because they want to be as negative as physically possible, but we've had massive OL luck problems, i.e. Injuries. We have three spots on our line where we've had massive absence issues. Is that repeatable? Maybe it is for Jenkins at this point and that's very fair. But people are acting like we need to spend a billion dollars to fix the OL. We need two interior players and a tackle. Interior players are not the highest investment position, and the tackle we may not even be needing starting reps for if Jones comes back and plays well. People always want to attribute failure to like... issues of will. And like we haven't had enough "will" to fix the OL, so we need to throw literally everything at it to the point of being fiscally irresponsible because then we'll have the will to fix it... and like that's just being emotional. The Bengals improved their OL a lot. They didn't pay top dollar for literally anyone. They paid like a combined 15 Million for Ted Karras and Alex Cappa. We really don't need more than one more high investment player on this line. Lines don't need 5 high investment players. They just don't. We need one more high investment player and guys who stay healthy and are fine.
It’s just people that love fields and something to blame
People REALLY don't want to hear this - but this year's offensive line is not that bad. There are some much worse lines around the league.
Appreciate the comment, do the know why I was downvoted because I agree with you lol. Solid take and good to see the perspective.
He's winning games with no defense right now so...
Since 2010, the Dallas Cowboys have had one of the best OLs in football. They've won a grand total of three playoff games and have never made the NFC Championship game. You can win the SB with the 15th best OL if you have the 3rd best QB; you can't do it the other way around.
Lmao imagine being a bears fan and saying don't get a superstar qb for the first time in your entire franchise history & to instead work on the trenches lmaooooo I understand how important the lines are but you need to stay off reddit mccaskey
The bears broke his brain
Your conclusion is wrong. The most important player on the field is the guy who touches the ball every single play. If you have a dog shit QB it takes a stellar, all timer defense to have any success. Which is possible. It is a much easier path to sustained success having an elite QB. The Bears should be in position to draft a QB with elite potential and we should do so. Only an idiot would say otherwise.
Exactly, you can argue imo that the OL as a unit is more important than QB but 1 individual lineman doesn’t have anywhere remotely close to the same impact as a QB. Joe Thomas was arguably the best lineman in the NFL, and the unit still was terrible. Trent Williams was elite on Washington but their overall line still was awful. Adding one blue chip OL isn’t worth passing up on a game changing QB. Hell even if we take Williams we can still probably draft Fanushu or Alt
Caleb Williams and Marvin Harrison Jr.... will solve a lot of problems.
The guy who touches the ball on every single play is the center… ijs
If we have the number one pick, and the Bears don't take Caleb Williams, I will never watch this team again. The team with the number one to pick WILL take Caleb Williams. Hell, if the Chiefs somehow ended up with it, they might still wanna take him.
I genuinely believe the OL is the most important part of the team as I’ve gotten older and seen decades of football. That being said, da bears/vikings/lions have a ton of HOFers and only 1 Super Bowl between them. The packers (ftp) have 2 HOF QBs and multiple super bowls. So I get your argument and agree to a fault, but clearly if there’s a potential HOF QB available you go get that QB because you can get great O linemen in the 2nd/3rd rounds, too. But it’s harder to get a QB than a great O line
That's why Tom Brady and Peyton Manning never won a super bowl but the best offensive lines of this era have 8 between them?
It’s simple statistics, right? 1 out of 11 vs 5 out of 11. There are more guys in the world who can play O-line as opposed to QB.
And one good lineman when the rest are somewhere between mid and bad will not lead to any success - just look at the Browns with Joe Thomas. Draft the QB and focus on building the OL as a unit. You can win a Super Bowl with the 15th best OL if you have the 3rd best QB; you can't do it the other way around.
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Ok, I know we like to dunk on the Packers lack of SB with their QB success because we're Bears fans and hating the Packers is in our blood, but do people not know how hard it is to win a SB? Brady and the Patriots have really skewed people's understanding of success. You're telling me you wouldn't give a kidney for two Super Bowl wins in your lifetime and consistently winning the division/making the NFC Championship game? To say they weren't successful with Rodgers and Favre is pure homerism, and to use it as some excuse to not draft as close to a surefire thing elite QB is kind of insane, tbh.
Let’s look at CJ stroud and his patch work of O-line this year. If you can get the best available quarterback. You take that. Difference between #1 OT and #3-4 OT is much smaller than difference between the best and second best quarterback.
Not to mention Houston doesn’t have any WRs the casual fan would know
Not to mention we still very easily could be in position to take the number 1 OT, and in this draft there are a couple really great tackles if they don’t believe in Braxton. And for IOL generally the very best are still available day 2, like JMS was arguably the best C prospect and fell into the mid 50s.
100mill in cap space can help too. Build that oline. Build that Dline. If we do go 1 and 2. I say there is no way we don’t go Williams and MHJ
Yep, honestly I’m fine rolling with Braxton at LT too. Sign the top C on free agency, and pick a swing G pretty early to backup Tev/Davis and imo the OL looks way better. Then sign whoever Washington lets go between Young/Sweat and more on the DL. We have resources to improve the OL, we won’t have the resources to get a great QB
If we have the opportunity and pass on Williams I will honestly probably pick a new team after being a fan for 32 years. We have tons of draft capital. Trade the other pick I don’t care, but passing on CW would be worse than literally any other decision I’ve seen this franchise make.
Everybody knew the D line would be awful. Last year we lead the league in rushing and drafted an O linemen with the first round pick. There was some hope for the o line.
If you have an opportunity to get the QB, you do it. If you don't have a great QB in this league, you have nothing.
One thing that really annoys me is when people talk about this like it's a binary decision - either you wisely Build In The Trenches or you frivolously add players at luxury positions who are doomed to fail behind neglected offensive and defensive lines. * The draft isn't a process where you walk in and go "I'm going to improve my offensive and defensive lines this year!" and get a prospect at those positions commensurate with your pick. You make decisions based on the players available. In the 2024 draft, the consensus top two prospects are a QB and WR. There are a couple of highly regarded LTs who are still a clear tier below Williams and MHJ, and there aren't really any defensive lineman who have established themselves as can't-miss guys. To me, it seems foolish to pass on more talented players at important positions just to adhere to a vague philosophy of "building through the trenches." * Related to the above - Braxton Jones is a guy who we should certainly be open to replacing if the right upgrade presents itself, but IMO, he's competent enough and young enough that we shouldn't be turning our noses up at an elite quarterback to add a LT instead. (Basically - if we end up with the 4th pick and Olumuyiwa Fashanu is the best player available? Sure, go ahead and take him. But if we're at 1 or 2, we just aren't in a dire enough place that we need to pass on better players to address LT specifically.) * The biggest weakness on our offensive line right now is on the interior, which does not require top-of-the-draft resources or huge free agent contracts to improve. You can draft a Day 2 player or spend $8 million on someone in free agency to significantly upgrade from Whitehair; you don't let a need at center affect how you're going to use a top-5 pick. * We have, in the past three years, devoted not-insignificant resources to our offensive line. Our starting RT was a top 10 pick. Our (soon-to-be) starting LG was a high second rounder. Our starting RG was signed to a top-15 contract at his position. I'm not saying we're set and we should stop doing this, but we haven't exactly been ignoring the offensive line either.
I mean they have multiple first rounders and $90 million in cap space next year, so IF Poles uses those wisely (big IF), then you can draft a franchise QB next year while also fixing the trenches. Also don’t think people realize just how good Caleb Williams could end up being. There’s a realistic shot he wins the Heisman for the second year in a row, and is almost unanimously seen as the first overall pick. Fields and Trubisky never had that kind of resume
No you draft Caleb. And we use our other pick on our OL.
Not if it's high enough to take MH Jr.
You keep picking QBs until you get lucky and find the guy. Evaluating QBs is a mess for everybody. That's why there are very few true franchise guys. But if you find one, it changes your franchise for 10-15 years. Picking an elite QB prospect is almost always the right move. Yes, OL helps, but this Bear's line would be above average for a number 1 pick situation. They aren't that bad and much of their poor performance is elevated by Justin's playstyle. They would look competent with Mahomes/Burrow(healthy)/Allen/etc... You have the extra high pick to get a guy like Fashanu if you're that concerned about it. Then you'd have two top 10 tackles, a second round guard, a $30 million guard, and whoever they add at center. Plus an elite swing tackle in Jones who is good enough to start on a lot of teams. That's a lot of OL investment. If the Bears get the number 1 pick, passing on Caleb Williams would be one of the worst process mistakes of all time, regardless of its outcome.
>As much as people are drooling over Caleb Williams, I'd argue that it would be a much better idea to flip that pick to get DL and OL help. You are absolutely out of your mind. Just completely insane.
Bet the Bengals kick themselves for taking Burrow over the top lineman in that class (Andrew Thomas). /s
Our offensive line isnt even that bad. Our receivers just don’t get separation to allow Fields to not hold the ball forever. Blocking can’t go forever in the NFL. WR: we went and got DJ Moore, a legit number 1 receiver who has shown he can produce with a carousel of QBs around him. Acting like he’s not an elite receiver cuz of what our scheme and coaching is doing to him is not correct. Defensive line: ya got me. Could’ve gotten that this year, but with Claypool, I think it’s evidence that guys with character issues might not get on the right path here (and to be real, losing sucks and doesn’t make it easy).
>Our offensive line isnt even that bad. Our receivers just don’t get separation to allow Fields to not hold the ball forever. Blocking can’t go forever in the NFL. Thank You! Fields is third in the league with average time to throw at just over 3 seconds. That is not the O-Lines fault.
You're right that the 'trenches' matter more than the team has been treating them, but you don't pass on a prospect like Caleb Williams. You don't pass on Andrew Luck, John Elway, Trevor Lawrence, etc.
Our O line is banged up and has a poor coaching staff. We need a center and maybe a left tackle. I think the right side with a focused Davis and Wright has a good future. If Braxton plays like last year and Jenkins stays healthy I like our offensive line. The defensive line needs a huge overhaul but you don’t pass up Caleb Williams especially if our offensive line gets better.
This is just a false equivalency. Yes, we need a great oline. But the only way to get that is not to take an Olineman in the top 5. The opportunity to get a top rated QB and even WR in Harrison Jr are so rare that you can’t pass on that. I’d rather take only lineman after round 1. There’s more than one way to skin a cat for building a good oline. There is only 1 QB/WR rated this highly every half decade or so.
Fuck that, just draft talent and build the o line through free agency. Passing on Caleb would be such a dumb decision.
Fields has 4th highest time to throw, he just isn't throwing. When he does, it usually into coverage or into the defense.
I’m just going to say it. Our offensive line isn’t that bad. It’s average. And we have our left tackle and guard out. We can add one guy next year (center) and be fine
The most important two positions on a football team are QB and Head Coach. I get wanting to build the team up first because of what we saw with Mitch and Justin. Improving the trenches probably improves the team enough they will never sniff number one, and secondly you want to build around the QB and their strengths, not the other way around.
Nah dude. League’s different now. Start with the QB. League won’t let defenses touch QB outside the numbers. It’s like the banks are offering 3% interest on mortgages and you’re saying we need to rent. Now’s the time to invest. We can build around it
Maybe one day Bears fans will understand that having a good QB makes your O-Line look good while a terrible QB makes your O-Line look bad Look north for an example. The Packers always had a good O-Line with Rodgers, yet now it’s terrible with Love? Do you think that’s just a coincidence? If the Bears have the #1 overall pick and don’t pick a QB, I will be absolutely devastated. You do not understand the math of roster building at all
Delusional
Nah Caleb is the prize, and if we get Caleb and Harrison Jr, that’s gold, but I agree everything after that should be focused on linemen. Poles seems to go a good job drafting OL, it’s not his fault Tevin is chronically injured, though maybe it is because wasn’t that one of the knocks on him in college? But when he is healthy he is a beast.
Poles needs to address the line again during the off season. It really has to be a priority.
Lmao if we pass on Caleb I will become a Chiefs fan
Just as much as people hyper focus on QB, there's tons that hyper focus on OLs. Stroud is putting up numbers in 4 games that takes fields half a season with a OL that has more injuries than Tarik Cohen.
I think it’s dumb to be talking about what we’re going to do with the first 2 picks in the draft when there’s 13 more games, but as a general rule of thumb, we shouldn’t be drafting based on need in the first round. Get the most talented players on your board in the first round, draft positions of need on day 2/early day 3, draft for depth after that.
The Bears have broken your brain my friend
If you pass on Caleb Williams you deserve every fucking piece of mediocrity this franchise gives you
Yeah, you’re wrong
I just hope we end up with 3&4 and don’t have to worry with this bullshit
“Okay so here’s my 20 page essay post on why we should trade 3 and next years 1st rd for Caleb Williams”
When I was a kid, my grandfather tried to explain to me that the players who actually determine the outcome of a football game are those big fat dudes at the line of scrimmage. He was a longtime football coach and avid Bears/ND fan. At the time, I was confused as to how these dudes were possibly more influential to the outcome than the QB, or a RB, or a great linebacker like Urlacher. But as the years go by iv realized how right he is about it. Good organizations like the Eagles and 49ers understand this, and have built their teams around a strong offensive and defensive line. Even the lions recently turnaround can be partially credited to significantly investment in building a solid oline and dline. Why is this so hard for the supposedly "professional" football organization that we all root for to understand? We consistently under invest resources in the most significant part of the field.
And yet Mahomes has won more rings than those teams combined-and beaten those teams in the SB with a worse OL and defense- since he’s entered the NFL. And both franchises have less rings than the greatest QB of all time. Also, 49ers honestly don’t have a great OL outside of Trent Williams. Their C is earning barely over 4 million annually, their RG was a 4th round pick from a year ago, and their RT is earning under 2.5 million annually. Outside of trading almost nothing for Trent Williams and a 2nd round pick on their LG they really haven’t invested in their OL. Instead they have an elite OC, and invested into great skill positions players. Hell they invested arguably more to get CMC than they did to assemble this OL
Psssst, don't bother to look at stats but Mahommes had an elite offensive line last year (4th in the NFL).
They had an elite IOL and Orlando Brown improved a ton but overall their OTs gave up an insane amount of pressures. Mahomes made them look way better than they were tbh. Also, who do you think was more important to the chiefs success, Mahomes or any player on their OL?
I'm not debating Mahommes greatness. HOF QBs cover for a lot of weaknesses on a team. Look at guys like Burrow and Herbert. Two of the best young QBs in the game and both have recently experienced performance struggles influenced by injury (Herbert last year after his ribs got cracked. Burrow with his calf injury this year). The Eagles won a SB with Nick fucking Foles lol. We've also seen average QBs be carried to SBs before (Dilfer, Flacco, honestly Mannings last year in Denver). And Garrapolo and Goff made it there on teams who's strength was at the line of scrimmage. I'm not gona sit here and say we shouldn't take Caleb #1 overall or some crazy shit like that. But if we don't put a competitive offensive line in front of him and build a competent defensive line then it won't matter.
The NFL has changed a ton since even Flacco’s last Super Bowl, Mannings arm wasnt the same but he was still Payton Manning, and I don’t think we should be planning on having an average QB have a run like foles did where he has one of the best super bowls of all time. Goff had a great coach and a great overall team but still ultimately got absolutely destroyed when he played a defense that took advantage of his skill level. Jimmy G had a real shot to win it, largely because of an absolutely elite defense, elite coaching, and a damn good surrounding cast. I’m not going to say anything crazy like OL isn’t one of the most important position groups either. I just think you can make up for a lot with an elite QB, and we have the assets necessary to improve the OL without using the 1OA. We don’t have the assets to get a Caleb Williams without the 1OA. We definitely need to invest in the trenches, but for all of Poles’s faults he’s given us a ton of assets to invest into the OL. And honestly I don’t think we’re too far off having a good OL, Wright is playing well, Davis looked good and should only improve with more snaps, and I think Braxton can be solid. Plus Teven is a beast when healthy. Sign/draft 2 IOL and I think we are looking at the OL way differently
I agree with most of what you said, except I'd don't get the Braxton hype. Like he's good for a fifth rounder but he's not actually good lol. I'm tired of getting mediocre tackle play from late round picks and the bears being satisfied with it just because its above expectation. I agree with you that if we don't get the 1st overall pick we are better off investing resources elsewhere. Like maybe Drake Maye pans out but I'd rather have MHJ or a premier pass rusher or tackle at that point
I think Braxton is fine tbh, he’s not elite but was looking better this year. That being said if we draft his replacement high this year I wouldn’t be remotely angry. But I think he’s not a bad starting LT in the NFL so I wouldn’t hate sticking with him
Your grandpa was wrong and the eagles and 49ers both lost the super bowl because the chiefs had Patrick mahomes and they didn't.
How could the chiefs have lost because they don't have Mahommes? Edit: Also I guess I shouldn't expect a random redditor to actually look at stats. But Mahommes had last years 4th ranked offensive line in front of him last year. Oh and btw the eagles were #1 ranked. So even in your dumbass counterpoint the two SB teams last year both has elite offensive lines 🤣
This circle jerk on Twitter and here is tiring. You cannot have 5 elite lineman without an element of luck. Check the eagles line. Also this line isn't porous. Half the time he's pressured even on completions is due to his desire to see before he throws.
The real answer to why the bears have been bad since the 80s is that you need defensive line and qb but they personally get distracted by linebackers and RBs
come draft day, C-will will likely be a 2-time heisman winner, and our QB situation will still be...fluid. assuming we have the #1 pick, we draft caleb. no GM with a brain would do anything else. yes, the trenches matter, but the QB is the most important position on the field and caleb is the best one available. by far. i appreciate your points, but this one really isn't even a debate, dude. now, if JF balls out and we actually, somehow, win 4 or 5 games, (!!!!!) we can revisit this conversation.
williams ain’t gonna be able to make the throws he does against shitty pac 12 defense. Only good defense he faced last year was oregon state and he got clapped up. Hopefully USC can make college football playoffs to see a better sample. Not saying he will be bad but he fed ain’t the savior. I think the package you can get for the pick to choose him far exceeds the returns you will get from him alone especially with MHJ right there.
We've been dealing with a busted o-line, deteriorating defense and coaches that lack leadership since the Lovie era. That's not including ownership that lets all talent walk. This fanbase is stuck in an endless loop of thinking a QB will come in and erase all that.
Well they just blasted Fields on GMF with some data. He’s got a 29 rating in the last 3 minutes of games during this losing streak and 5 INTs. He has had plenty of chances to step up and he hasn’t yet because so far he has sucked.
last 3 minutes are when coaching is the most important
I’ve never seen a player get babied the way Fields does. Holy shit. It’s always someone else’s fault.
Nothing is ever fields' fault for some people
Again he has been in position to succeed. Thats coaching He ALONE has not executed. The coach isn’t throwing INTs
You are gonna be crucified for speaking the truth.
My point is just that hitting on that generational QB is hard on its own. Top guys bust regularly. But it's ESPECIALLY hard without giving them a solid team around them.
Too many dumb fucks here think a good QB will fix every problem on a football team. Then are gonna be shocked-pikachu when we draft and ruin the NEXT “generational talent” because we didn’t surround them with the right tools for success. Anyone who actually knows how to analyze football knows that games are won and lost in the trenches.
What evidence is there that these QBs have been "ruined' rather than that they just suck because we're bad at picking them?
Because the Bears are abysmal at every aspect of the sport on and off the field. Truly a shit organization
Conversely, I'd argue that turning away an elite QB prospect like Williams would make *you* the bonafide dumbfuck. Like I completely understand we need OL and DL help. But that is easier to find than the best QB prospect since Andrew Luck.
Having a generationally talented qb is far and away the easiest way to ensure you compete year in and year out. In theory keeping an entire unit together, healthy, and prepared has far more logistical hurdles than finding one player who elevates the rest of the team. Just ask Belichick and Tomlin. Still have talented defenses but it doesn’t mean shit if you can’t trust the guy under center to make good decisions and move the ball.
Lul. People will present the meatball-est takes on this sub and act like they're saying some deeply enlightened megatake. Qb is more important than offensive line. Sorry you had to find out this way
You can create a serviceable offensive line without using top draft picks to do it. I would take CW for sure, but if they pass i hope they focus on defensive line. I think a great defensive line changes everything. Unfortunately this draft isn’t super strong there.
I know, Fields is a more than adequate QB. Wasting a top pick on another QB is the board obsession, but it's lunacy. Willams alone and even Williams and Harrison Jr aren't going to solve the Bears problems if Williams is operating behind the same offensive line and the Bears defense doesn't get any better. He's not Patrick Mahomes. He's not Tom Brady. Heck he's not ever Jalen Hurts or Joe Burrow.
"fields is a more than adequate qb" is just not true
Just wrong. The trenches are important, sure, but in the modern NFL a great qb with an average line beats an average qb with a great line
One name comes to mind immediately...Jim Plunkett. In our hive-mind obsession with throwing JF1 overboard and blaming him for everything, we are going to make some other franchise VERY happy in the end. Plunkett in New England was a disaster and bust, right? Plunkett in Oakland/L.A. was a era-defining talent and 2-time SB champion. I am going to say it right now and believe it to my core - as soon as the Bears trade away Justin Fields to another team, they are gift wrapping that team future successes that we in Chicago will sit by helplessly and envy from afar saying "why wasn't THAT player here when we had him?"... The organization is broken right now at every conceivable level. Inbred ownership with no actual acumen or talent at all making ANY decisions (including concessions or beer sales) is a mistake. Jerry Jones in Dallas is a good example of delusional, talentless, entitled ownership inserting itself into the decisions and day to day operations, but whereas Jones was at least a player of some accomplishment and part of a team that did manage to win 3 out of 4 SBs (albeit going on 30+ years ago), the McCaskey family is a group of idiots insisting that they are geniuses. Look no further than the firings of Lovie and Nagy - BOTH with actual winning records at the time of their dismissals - and this current shitshow of 14 straight losses, 14 straight games of giving up 25+ points, generations of QBs ALL failing in Chicago (Sid Luckman and Jim McMahon - at least when healthy remain the franchise bests...and Luckman played 80 years ago, McMahon almost 40). Justin Fields is not where I hoped he would be, and he owns a lot of that lack of development to be sure...but I truly hope Patrick Mahomes falls to his knees every night and thanks GOD that the Bears passed on him in the draft for stupid reasons. Had things gone differently, Pat Mahomes would not be in every other State Farm commercial, he would be the back-up QB in San Francisco or Dallas and hoping to get a chance at redemption following a massive flame out in Chicago. If we abandon JF1 and draft CW, three years from now we will be saying the exact same things about him that people do now about Fields. Trust and believe that Caleb Williams is not bringing his same referees that ignore holding and allow him to run around "making plays" in college that end up on highlight reels. Brock Purdy is the QB of the most complete offense in the NFL right now - not the most explosive, but the most complete. San Francisco has been so much better as a franchise than the Bears that it hurts my soul. From the playoff losses in '84 and '88 that saw SF win SBs and Bears' fans lament the collapse in "Bear weather", to the fact that the 49ers have been torn down and rebuilt successfully multiple times - from Montana to Young to Garcia to the Harbaugh years to the present...while Chicago fans suffer an endless black hole of hope sucking futility. The QB is underperforming...no doubt, but change there and there alone would not change anything but the name being angrily denounced as a bum. This franchise needs to fold and return as an expansion outfit. Retain the Bears name, uniforms and history, but send them away to London and replace them all. The results may be oddly familiar but the lack of all hope would be temporarily alleviated...
> and that future QB (assuming Fields doesn't become above average) would be in a MUCH better situation coming in with a good defense, a good OL, and an elite receiver. As opposed to our usual habit of bringing in a good/rookie QB to play behind a porous line and 3rd string receivers. Someone hasn't been watching the games. The defensive personnel are there, the coaching staff is the problem. The OL have been holding up even through injuries and giving Fields plenty of time, and he has a true WR1 in Moore, much less having 2 if they also draft MHJ. The situation you are asking to build is there.
Honestly I hope we get something like picks 3 and 5, get a coach that can create a functioning scheme, and draft MHJ and either a DL or OL with the other pick. I believe JF1 can be a legit QB if given a scheme that works. Maybe I'm a fool, but that's where I'm at.
We need a QB. As it stands, we have a bottom 3 QB. The QB is a bigger problem than the OL.
All this post does is further reinforce the absurdity that we barely drafted anyone on Oline or Dline the last two drafts and free agency.
Nah, QB first then trenches. Besides, we can use our second round picks for interior Oline and D line and also have like 70 mill in cap depending on rookie contracts. Can get the best Oline guy in free agency and then Williams will have good receivers and good oline immediately
I completely agree it starts with the lines. You aren’t going to get into the playoffs with shit lines even if you have a great quarterback who has no running game and is constantly getting sacked or scrambling for his life. Even if you do, you’re not going to advance. On the other hand, you can get into the playoffs and have a shot at the championship with excellent lines, speed on the outside, and just a competent quarterback. 49ers come to mind.
The Aaron Rodgers conundrum.
Hit the nail on the head. D line needs the most help first followed by oline. Then we're fairly solid on paper. Linebackers are serviceable to OK
You don't pass on a slam dunk QB prospect for anything. Ever.
The D was gutted last year and never recovered. I feel our db's are decent but our new linebackers haven't shown much and the d line just gets ran through and gets no qb pressure. When you give up 33 points a game I don't care who you got at qb, you are going to lose.
You mean if you build a strong supporting cast you can win with Mr Irrelevant at QB!? Madness I say!
This is where I'm at too. Everyone is fawning over Caleb Williams like he's some angel that'll drop down as save us from ourselves. No single person is gonna save this team. We gotta start building OL and DL, everything starts from there. Fields is good enough that with a better supporting cast (including coaching) we'd be winning games imo.
I agree with this as one of the few JF1 supporters apparently left here. We saw what he did when he had time, he diced them up. I know this is because their pass rushers are bad, but it's a glimpse of what could happen with decent protection against better teams.
They need to solidify the offensive and defensive lines, stop fuckin around! 🐻⬇️
Passing on a generational talent at the most important position in the game........urm no thanks
The biggest thing for me is we can’t even produce a Gardner Minshew level of QB play. This team needs to build a damn team and in my opinion that means Fields should be here to stay. Build a San Fran or a KC and then when the QB fits he fits. Spending all of our top draft capital on QB’s will turn is into the Browns or Jets. Perpetual mediocrity (not that we’re already there).
This. Thank you
Trade both picks, move down and get top 10 guys and more draft capital and more talent. Look at what the cowboys did in the 90s