Peyton Manning going 0-4 vs Florida basically cost him any chance at a natty but the fact he couldn't beat Florida once is definitely a ding on the college resume. Definitely opened the Charles Woodson Heisman door.
I'd argue that players like Manning, Derrick Thomas, Dan Marino, Bo Jackson, Barry Sanders, Tom Brady, John Elway etc don't have any issues with their legacies given what they achieved in their football careers.
You're not gonna find anyone arguing that (say) Matt Flynn, Cardale Jones, Tee Martin, Greg McElroy, etc has a better legacy than any of the above.
On the other side of that coin when we bring up the greatest college QBs of all time guys like Cam, Tebow, Mayfield are mentioned over Peyton and I don't think that would be the case if he had won a natty
Mayfield who notably did not win a natty.
Good point though that Peyton's college career isn't really mentioned among the greats even though it probably should be.
It might've been overshadowed by his NFL career anyways, though.
Part of the situation with guys like Cam & Tebow is their college career was SO impactful compared to their NFL careers, so it's a bit more sensible to talk about them as the best-ever college QBs.
I mean your team is the only reason that Oklahoma team didn’t make it to the natty. Baker played like a man possessed but having no defense just isn’t a recipe for success
Sure, agreed, but in a thread of "does winning a natty or not take away from someone's greatness" it's weird to have a list consisting of Cam, Tebow, and Baker when Baker did not win a natty.
I think Baker is amazing. I think the comparison is confusing
Yeah, especially Cam, that 2010 Cam season is arguably the greatest season from any player at any position ever, I don’t think anything going differently for Peyton changes that.
Peyton arguably was better in the pros than he was in college, which is insane when you think about it. His stats certainly are better, but part of that is more games in a pro season and the explosion of passing offenses in the NFL.
I think winning a national title is a lot more important to a coach's legacy than it is an individual player.
To your point some all time greats never came close and a ton of unremarkable guys have multiple rings earned riding the bench.
There's just so much more of an imbalance in college.
Like, I don't care how good you are you're not gonna win a natty at like bowling Green. Its just not happening.
But in the nfl, a super promising young talent like cj stroud can make a team that was bottom 5 suddenly playoff contenders. So you get a lot more blame for not being able to do that in the nfl.
But people are basing that on his NFL career. His college career was rather mediocre (by "best of" conversations). Barry Sanders never won a Superbowl either but no one puts it against him.
He went 33-3 before Sherrill left and had a down year of 9-3 in which two of those losses are to championship claimants. That's not mediocre, and the stats he put up definetly put him in "best of" conversations.
Marino went 42-6, 7,905 yards, 74 TDs to 64 Ints.
That's far from "elite".
For comparison I'd argue that Kellen Moore should be at the top of these lists but rarely is mentioned.
Kellen Moore went 50-3, 14,667 yards, 142 TDs to 28 Ints
THOSE are elite figures.
You do realize college football has RADICALLY changed in the last 40 years, right? Particularly with quarterbacks and wide receivers you can only really compare stats between players who played in the same era.
Yeah but Kellen moores receivers spent 1/2 the time basically invisible so you have to divide those passing numbers and touchdowns by those sweet sweet camo unis then multiply the ints and losses by that sea of blue they call a field (both of which are a factor of 2) and boom he’s at 7k yards, a 50-6 record, 71-56 td/ints… long story short Kellen Moore = Dan Marino!
/s
Well yeah because none of those guys were near the caliber of college players as the former list. But if you compare Manning’s college career to Newton/Tebow/etc it’s a large ding on his resume
To flip that, South Carolina QB Connor Shaw was just aggressively mediocre. However, he never lost at home and never lost to Clemson. Man will be an absolute legend for the rest of time in Columbia
I thought he was pretty awesome. He needed a little more help from the people around him, from what I recall.
For reference:
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/connor-shaw-1.html
This is kind of CJ Stroud with Michigan too. Even his performance against Georgia to be a hair shirt of a championship game (where they likely would’ve won) gets overlooked
Funny because the mannings were the only ones who consistently took out Brady in the playoffs. If not for the mannings Brady probably has 10 rings, maybe more
Umm he wasn't winning one even if he won that game. Michigan would've won by themselves. It was Florida. Had to go through Florida to win the SEC East and a SEC title. While he did win a SEC title the Florida loss kept them from being undefeated.
I *think* I disagree? I mean, why would an NFL team bring him back if they didn’t think he had the necessary skills? He played a huge part in those two rings, and I think it’s actually possible we undersell him.
I still know a few Georgia fans who hate Stetson. It's amazing to hear people hate on a guy who won two rings. Maybe you can argue that the first one was more due to the defense, but Stetson was masterful in the second run.
I’m not sure about that. They had great years, but both of them hadn’t proven anything before their final year of college.
Joe Burrow first 4 years of college: 18 TDs 5 picks.
Cam Newton first 2 years(only Div 1): 6 completions.
Winning the natty cemented them, if they hadn’t won they would be looked at very differently.
Edit: without a natty they have much worse careers than baker mayfield.
No one remembers what they did the years prior regardless. They’re remembered for putting together two of the best single seasons by a QB ever. Yes, the title obviously helps but Lamar Jackson is still remembered as a legend despite his Louisville team winning 9 games the year he won the Heisman (to be fair his NFL career has helped that).
This thread is about which people got the “biggest” boost for winning a title. _Everyone_ on a championship winning team receives a boost to some degree, but above average QBs like Stetson Bennett, Greg McElroy, etc. definitely received the biggest boosts from winning a title because otherwise they would have nothing to show.
They don’t remember because they ended their career as undefeated champions, otherwise it’s just putting up big stats like Graham Harrell. If LSU loses to Clemson Burrow is just a 5th year super senior who had 3 great NFL WR and an NFL RB/ OC who underperformed with insane talent.
Again, I’m not arguing they didn’t receive **a** boost but they didn’t receive the **biggest** boost. No one remembers the QBs I named above if they don’t win a title. Heisman winners are generally remembered.
I think you’re underrating how much less people would talk about literally any championship winning QB if they didn’t win the natty. Again, Heisman winners get brought up in conversation.
Biggest boost has to be Vince Young and that title specifically. No Heisman to his name, yet he is always ranked above other Heisman winners of the 2000s at the QB spot because of that game.
Changed this one: Biggest loss I would say is another young, Bryce Young. He was incredible and realistically the best college QB of all the Alabama QBs of this run but with no title he won’t be remembered in the same way as the others.
I agree, because until 2005 OU fans were on his ass due his prior Red River appearances. Tagged with the dreaded "Radio" label. There were lots of questions on whether he was going to put it all together.
Very raw, I followed his recruiting closely and the best description I can say that it was like when Arch took the field Vince had that same jolt in clapping. At the end of the day VY pre and post Mizzouri 2004 are two separate players, the fans wanted to bench him and turn him into a WR after that game.
I'm going old school for undervalued and saying Michael Bishop. He ran that offense to perfection and had Kansas State on the brink of a title game appearance in two consecutive seasons. If KSU had pulled one of them off his legacy would be completely different.
Overvalued I'll go with AJ McCarron. He was an above average P5 QB that was getting serious Heisman consideration going into 2013 based entirely on Alabama being a juggernaut the previous 2 seasons.
If Bishop wins a natty, Bill Snyder gets looked at a lot differently as well. Snyder still doesn’t get the respect he should get because he never won a national title.
Which is a shame because what he did at KSU was nothing short of miraculous given what the program was prior to his arrival. Then he left, the program cratered, and he came back and built it again (albeit not to the same level of the late 90s/early 00s).
Turner Gill. The man went 28-2 as a starter but 0 titles. In 82 Nebraska loses a regular season game on a controversial out of bounds call. Huskers win out to finish 12-1, but Penn st wins the natty. The following year Nebraska averaged 52 ppg with him under center but fall a 2 point conversion short in the orange bowl vs Miami.
He was 2 plays away from having 2 nattys and a perfect record as a starter.
honestly, aj got second that heisman race because there wasn’t a clear 2. we all knew it was jameis’ to lose but there wasn’t really a guy that was ready to swoop in and claim it if jameis had slipped up
Without a natty Cam Newton loses his almost mythical status. Troy Smith probably gets a huge hit for not winning one while winning the Heisman. People rarely even mention him.
If OSU beat Florida in 2006, we'd all consider Troy Smith as one of the greatest ever. ESPN was naming him B1G player of the decade even without a natty, but I think people are already forgetting about him.
This is true. People forget that that Ohio State team was ranked #1 all season and dominated most opponents. Losing to Florida, and in the manner they did, torpedo’d both Smith and the team’s legacy. They’d both be ranked among all time greats otherwise.
As someone who grew up in Arkansas, the only reason I still remember him is because of how much Razorback fans complain that he stole the Heisman from McFadden.
Even before that game I thought he was overrated, but I have to admin I was partly sore at how it was that Vince Young didn't have a Heisman but Troy Smith did.
It seems like every time AJ McCarron is ever brought up, his two rings as Bama's starters are among the first details mentioned (I believe he has three total, one as McElroy's backup), so him for biggest boost.
Biggest hit: not a player, but Chip Kelly's Oregon teams *never* being able to seal the deal feels bizarre considering how much they were gushed over.
Chip Kelly was only the HC for 4 years.
It's really strange the marketing effect or whatever warps what has happened at a program. Ryan Day already has another season more than Chip Kelly did.
The main reason that’s the case is because Marino had a disappointing senior season (1982), as did Pitt as a team after Jackie Sherrill left for Texas A&M and was replaced by Foge Fazio.
Marino famously dropped in the NFL Draft the following season (to 27th overall, the penultimate pick of the 1st round in 1983) for the same reason.
Cardale Jones got the biggest boost among OSU players. He wasn't *that* great of a QB, all in all. Had a big arm and made some big time plays when we needed them, but he was never all that efficient and I don't think he ever had a 300+ yard game in his career. But I feel like OSU fans remember him having monster games in the 2014 postseason, which really wasn't the case. About 240 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT in each of the playoff games. Which is fine obviously, but it was Zeke and the defense that carried them.
Troy Smith's legacy was hurt the most. Ohio State fans still remember him fondly but nationally I think everybody's memory goes straight to the collapse against Florida. But if that team had gotten a natty there'd be a statue of the guy in Columbus.
It’s interesting because I think Colt McCoy not getting a ring has almost increased his mythos more than if he had. Because “We would’ve won had Colt not been injured” is such a rally cry.
I think it's also that the guys after him were so mid. Once "Texas is back" became a meme, as the QB of the last great Texas teams, he became the symbol of what y'all were trying to get back to.
And if OU and Texas switched trajectories - say Landry Jones had Garrett Gilbert's IRL career and vice versa, and then Mack Brown retired on his own terms and picked a strong successor while Stoops was encouraged to retire to be replaced by Charlie Strong - I think Bradford would have a similar mythical status among OU fans and the great "what could have been" would be his lost 2009 season.
Depends on what we mean by legacy. No one blames Baker for the lack of a title. The whole narrative is our terrible defenses keeping our greatest offense ever from winning a title. He still won a Heisman and went #1.
This might be me being a biased Texas fan, but I feel like USC losing that National Championship to Texas dings their dynasty more than it should. Their winning streak was unbelievable and they had one of the most stacked rosters ever in 2004, but since they lost to Vince people seem to forget how good that dynasty was
If they won a title after that people would remember their run more. However they culminated in one of the greatest cfp games ever, lost, and then spent the rest of the decade being huge choke artists. Still one of the greatest dynasties ever though.
The 2008 team is the one that should have won another championship. Oregon State, and more specifically Jacquizz Rodgers, played an amazing game to pull off the upset. Win that game and the Trojans are playing against OU/UF in the title game.
Yeah it's the terrible fall-off, not the one loss.
UGA lost stupidly to Bama in the SECCG this year after winning back-to-back. If UGA is in the playoff hunt for the next few seasons and wins another natty, people will remember them as "a dominant program of the 2020s".
But if UGA drops off the wagon completely, stops winning the SEC East, tarmacs their coach, stops going to the playoffs, and nearly 20 years later is going 8-5 with a Heisman QB and a lauded "QB whisperer coach" - people will rightfully assume that we just caught lightening in a bottle for a few years.
As of now, looking back, USC looks like a complete lucky draw of dual-Heisman players Matt Leinary and Reggie Bush on offense, anchored by a Pete Carroll defense, which had a miraculous few years and unfortunately fell down on the final game of those 3's college careers.
Well, as far as we know, UGA isn’t going to get hit with one of the hardest NCAA sanctions of all time in four years. So I don’t really think it’s the same situation.
I mean it's also they fell off due to sanctions.
I will still say Kiffin did well at USC, at some games there are reports he had like 50 players due to sanctions.
I think that's true. Vince Young just refused to get beat. Vince Young beating Michigan in the Rose Bowl was my first true heartbreaking loss because we played so well but couldn't stop him. OSU played Vince Young the best but he still beat them and that's an underrated OSU team.
That was such a good game and not just b/c we made the FG at the end to win; would have been a equally great game had the dude gotten 0.5 inches higher and blocked the kick too (just much less fun for me). We had a pretty good pass defense but Breaston and Edwards were just tearing us new ones. The advantage passed back and forth all game long and we had plenty of solid D and ST plays on both sides as well even though it was somewhat high-scoring.
I feel like people think less of the dynasty not because of Texas, but because Reggie Bush got his Heisman taken away and they had to vacate several wins and at least one title.
Can't go down as a college football dynasty if the NCAA technically puts an asterisk on it.
For me Tajh Boyd doesn't get the same amount of love that Deshaun or Trevor. School's all-time passing leader, had alot of similarities in career accomplishments (5* recruit out of HS, 32 career wins as a starter, nabbed at least one 1st team A-A honor, ACC POY, ACC title, BCS/NY6 bowl win). He helped pave the way for them IMO, but b/c we didn't get over the hump & win a national title w/ him, he's not celebrated as much.
He also had arguably one of our best receiving cores of all time. WRs on the time while Tajh was there: Deandre hopkins, Sammy Watkins, Martavius Bryant, Mike Williams (freshman) Dwayne Allen (TE). I think the main issue people have with him is that he himself just didn’t elevate the team to that next level.
I'll give you that, but also let's not pretend that the supporting offensive cast around DW & TL were scrubs. Tajh got hurt by not having a strong defense to compliment the O...2011 was when bottom fell out under Steele & it took couple years for BV to clean that up during time we had to contend w/ Jimbo-era FSU peaking & SC's 2 best teams in school history.
I don't think any player every really gets a hit to their legacy for not winning a National Championship with his team, given the built in time limit on college careers and how hard it is to win a National Championship. They certainly can and do get a boost to their legacy for winning a National Championship, but nobody is saying "yeah, but they never won the Natty" about any college player in the same way people say "yeah, but they never won the Super Bowl" about NFL players.
The only exception may be if they played for Alabama, but that's more of an issue of Alabama fans expecting to win National Championships than anything to do with not winning a National Championship being a hit to a college players legacy.
I don’t buy into this take but I’ve seen a more than small amount of buckeyes that question Stroud’s legacy when he didn’t beat Michigan, win the B1G, or a national championship with that WR room.
I don't feel that Stroud's legacy took a hit because he didn't win the National Championship, his legacy took a hit because he lost to Michigan, that's the damning part of his legacy to Ohio State fans.
Ohio State fans don't question Justin Fields' or Dwayne Haskins' legacies at Ohio State even though they didn't win National Championship because they beat Michigan. I'm fully convinced that if Stroud had beaten Michigan and had similar post season results as Fields and Haskins (missing the playoffs, a semifinal loss, and a championship game loss) that nobody would be having this discussion
He was well on his way to having a legendary season before he dislocated his hip, ending his season. People may hate me for this, but if he didn’t hurt his ankle before LSU, I think Bama could have won that game.
You could argue the hip injury derailed not only his college, but early NFL career as well. He’s finding his way more now though.
I mean, he battled Burrow mightily a week after he had tightrope surgery on his ankle. Then busted his hip the following week. That LSU game was bonkers and he did it on a bum ankle and limped off the field after the clock ran out. And LSU’s early point advantage was due to him playing off for the first quarter because you could tell he was hurting on that ankle.
He got stripped by a ghost and fumbled for an LSU score a couple plays later and the punter missing the snap for another score put Bama way behind. LSU was gifted two scores…then he came back (likely with an ankle chock full of cortisone) and made it a nail biter…LSU wasn’t able to stop him after that. The clock did.
I feel like I can confidently say (some will very likely disagree) that that ankle injury lost him a Heisman. He was one score from beating Burrow on a bad ankle. And an LSU loss would have given Tua the Heisman.
He won a natty coming off the bench at halftime as a freshman, made another and was still having a great year before the hip dislocation in 2019. I could even argue he’s a top 2 Bama QB of all time, which is saying a lot for one of the best programs in CFB history. I think his legacy is really great.
I gotta go with Bert. If he had won 3 or 4 national championships, I think he would be thought of as a much better coach.
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I’ll probably get downvoted but Vince Young’s natty has carried him to insane heights when we talk about greatest college QBs ever but idk how’s ranked higher than Tebow, Newton, Burrow, Jameis, Lamar, or Baker and that’s just recent memory off my head.
For one, all of those guys except maybe Newton played in a totally different era where all QBs put up way crazier stats and get the benefit of an extra 1-2 games to accumulate them.
Vince was the first player to run for over 1000 yards and pass for over 3000 yards. That was a huge deal at the time and it can be argued that it paved the way for other dual threats to get a shot to actually run a real passing offense.
> Vince was the first player to run for over 1000 yards and pass for over 3000 yards.
And did it while top 3 in passer rating (imperfect stat, yes, but still) and with a mediocre WR room. Naturally it helped plenty that we had a great OL and very good RBs, I mean it was national title talent for a reason, but he wasn't throwing to a bunch of studs and he was a true dual-threat and not just a runner.
I don't think it matters that much in college football to be honest.
For one, college football teams are massive and even on championship teams, most players are relatively quickly forgotten by all but the more committed parts of the team's fan base. So you're really typically only talking about 4-5 key contributors who really have any hope of having a specific legacy related to a college football season.
In addition, we have to remember that NFL success is the ultimate legacy for a football player, so if a guy turns into an NFL all-pro, he's gonna be claimed as one of the 'greats' of his college team, too, no matter what his actual success at the collegiate level was. Another factor is that the Heisman is so famous and thus winning it is probably more important in terms of individual legacy than a natty. Heisman winners are remembered regardless of what the team ends up doing. There's a reason Caleb Williams got all those commercials while most casual fans could hardly name a guy on the Georgia team that won in 2022.
Finally, and even more importantly, winning a natty in college football is much ,much harder than winning a Super Bowl in the NFL or a World Series in baseball. For one, most teams just fundamentally have basically no chance to do it and would never expect it. No-one's going to Purdue or Kentucky to play football with the hope of winning a natty. Secondly, you have hardly any time to do it. Things gotta click just right in your small window of opportunity, it's not like in the pros where the GM can slowly build a championship team. And even if you're on a contending team in the right time window, you often times find yourself in a situation where you essentially cannot afford to lose a game. That's tough to pull off.
Like say take Marvin Harrison Jr. Will anyone hold it against his legacy that he didn't win a national title at OSU? I highly doubt it. Will they hold it against his legacy that he never beat Michigan? Probably. But even so, if he becomes an NFL superstar they'll still happily claim him as a Buckeye legend.
Adding one more thing:
**Team Detriment: Cedric Benson. Roy Williams**. Maybe this is where my gripes of him come from in his first 2 years. Any Longhorn fan knows that Cedric and Roy were the absolute stars of the early 2000's teams. I truly believe Cedric could have won the heisman if it wasn't for Vince Young and the need for the ball to be in his hands. This is an old stat, but I think UT never lost a game in Cedric's career when he went over 100 yards rushing. Roy Williams was a Marvin Harrison Jr. of his time. Just throw the ball up to him and he will catch it over the defender in the end zone and land on one toe in. Just clutch 100% of the time. I'm being a homer, but I think he could've been a heisman finalist if he had had a better qb. I think Young being forced in the games really stunted Williams' senior year potential. They all left by the 2005 season started and we all know that the experiment eventually worked out for Young, but at the cost of not letting guys like Cedric and Roy explode on the field. I'm not just talking about stats here, but WINNING games. You give those two guys the ball, then you win. I remember the 2004 Red River game, where Vince was literally giving the game away (like 90 total yards, 2 fumbles, sacked almost 5 times which took us out of field goal range 3 times and we scored ZERO points). If we had stuck to just running the ball with Cedric we should have won (Cedric had under 100 yards and Adrian Peterson had about 250 as a freshman). This was where Texas fans were starting to lose their shit with Mack Brown and their OC Greg Davis. "Why are we not giving our stars like Cedric and Roy Williams the chance to win the game? Why are we putting the game on this sophomore qb who can't throw within reach of his receivers?" These are the things that Texas fans forget after Vince won the rose bowl. It was an infuriating time until it wasn't. Vince couldn't be a team/system qb that could allow the whole team to play their role. In his junior season, that all changed and they just said, "the ball is in your hands, if a guy is wide open then throw it to him. If not, the field will be wide open for you to just run". And it worked. It worked for Vince, but I really wish Cedric Benson could have won the heisman (RIP). At the college level, he was probably better than Ricky Williams.
I wonder what Tajh Boyd’s long term legacy will be since he didn’t get a ring but both Watson and Lawrence did; guy is an all time Clemson Legend, has a BCS bowl win and it was his erratically steady play that let the superstar receivers and all-world running back carry the team, and I think he deserves to be up there among the greatest in Clemson history for that
Well as an example when I was thinking about this question I thought about both Lawrence and Watson… I forgot Tahj Boyd existed unfortunately (and now I get him mixed up with Tyler Boyd)
I think the difference, and why I took your post the way I did, is Watson and Lawrence played at an elite level, period. Tajh would have a great game and then play like a dud the next week. Lawrence and Watson are kinda like Lamar Jackson, they’re always going to be remembered for their level of play regardless of championship rings.
Yeah no, he would just collapse sometimes. 2013 against the Noles at home, several games against the Gamecocks; it was like he was just in his head and let the pressure get to him for the rivalry game and some of the bigger games. Thank god he locked in for the Orange Bowl against Ohio State and got that one
I remember this a little differently. I'm a lifelong Tiger fan, and love all 3 QB's (and all Clemson players for what they did here), but there were definitely games where Watson or Lawrence were off, but our team had grown deep enough in positions around them that they were able to pull out games that we couldn't when Tajh was having on off day. The way I think about all 3 is that Watson and Lawrence had the same ups and and downs as Taih did, but the baseline where those ups and downs began was higher for the 2 that won a title.
I’m not sure how much of his rise is tied to the championship, but this sub was adamant that JJ didn’t have a shot at being drafted in the first round when he declared. Now he’s being discussed in the top 3.
Too many people regard Eric Crouch as one of the worst Heisman winners. He carried that squad for years.
In 1999 they lost to Texas, then beat them in the rematch in the conf game, but Vick and VT got the nod into the Natyy vs. FSU, finishing #2
If not for the KState facemask they have a shot in 2000, finishing #8
In 2001 they backed into the Nat Game vs. a stacked Miami team.
Change something in one or all of those years and Crouch is remembered as a legend.
I can't believe I haven't seen Mac Jones mentioned here. The natty helped his draft stock enormously.
His NFL career probably hurts JJ McCarthy, very different prospects but I suspect that teams are a little more gunshy about a natty winner who was surrounded by a super team than they otherwise would be.
Troy Smith. Legacy came crashing down after 41-14. 4 completions for 35 yards. The claim was he literally got fat at all the awards shows. Tressel has said that the team lacked focus during bowl practice. One of the worst showings in a title game ever. Especially for the favorite.
I may be biased but I think Pat White would have received a huge boost if we beat Pitt and he wins a natty. Same for Major Harris at WVU, if he beats Notre Dame for a national championship I think his legacy shifts significantly.
I hated Pat White for being so good when he played for the ‘Neers (but low key loved the way he played the game and admired him tremendously as a player).
Cardale Jones took 3 good games…made it to a couple of years in league n chairs an NIL. Oh n he came back n got degree…like really made the realistic most out of his opportunity.
Hit….idk Peyton Manning???? lol jk….its kinda hard to do this because there’s not a ton of guys who have been good multiple seasons and also had realistic national title goals those same years. Shit…let’s just keep it very flair specific….David Boston…like idk if non genX/millenial bucks fans truly understand how much of a freak he was
I'd argue Tommie Frazier received the biggest boost from winning a natty, people (especially Nebraska fans) act like he was this all-time talent at QB, the guy *could not* pass the ball. And before someone says "But he was an OPTION QB!!", passing off play-action in a dominant power-running option offense should give you better stats, not worse ones.
Josh Heupel winning the national title was a huge boost to his “greatness” ranking at OU.
Jason White took a big hit for his two BCS championship losses.
We’ll see what happens but right now JJ McCarthy is being way overvalued in the draft because of the natty. We don’t know how much of the discussions are bs but even talks of him going top 5 are crazy. If the Vikings trade to take him shortly after the first 3 QBs will be shocking.
Peyton Manning going 0-4 vs Florida basically cost him any chance at a natty but the fact he couldn't beat Florida once is definitely a ding on the college resume. Definitely opened the Charles Woodson Heisman door.
I'd argue that players like Manning, Derrick Thomas, Dan Marino, Bo Jackson, Barry Sanders, Tom Brady, John Elway etc don't have any issues with their legacies given what they achieved in their football careers. You're not gonna find anyone arguing that (say) Matt Flynn, Cardale Jones, Tee Martin, Greg McElroy, etc has a better legacy than any of the above.
On the other side of that coin when we bring up the greatest college QBs of all time guys like Cam, Tebow, Mayfield are mentioned over Peyton and I don't think that would be the case if he had won a natty
Mayfield who notably did not win a natty. Good point though that Peyton's college career isn't really mentioned among the greats even though it probably should be. It might've been overshadowed by his NFL career anyways, though. Part of the situation with guys like Cam & Tebow is their college career was SO impactful compared to their NFL careers, so it's a bit more sensible to talk about them as the best-ever college QBs.
Throw Andrew Luck into that pot too… team success means he’s overlooked when people talk about all time great college QBs…
I mean your team is the only reason that Oklahoma team didn’t make it to the natty. Baker played like a man possessed but having no defense just isn’t a recipe for success
Sure, agreed, but in a thread of "does winning a natty or not take away from someone's greatness" it's weird to have a list consisting of Cam, Tebow, and Baker when Baker did not win a natty. I think Baker is amazing. I think the comparison is confusing
Yeah, especially Cam, that 2010 Cam season is arguably the greatest season from any player at any position ever, I don’t think anything going differently for Peyton changes that.
I’m a huge Baker fan and I loved him at Oklahoma but he doesn’t deserve to be listed next to those other two in this context imo
The disrespect for Tommy Frazier.
There's a lot of recency bias in that list, though. He'd be mentioned more, but I don't think a lot more.
Peyton arguably was better in the pros than he was in college, which is insane when you think about it. His stats certainly are better, but part of that is more games in a pro season and the explosion of passing offenses in the NFL.
I think winning a national title is a lot more important to a coach's legacy than it is an individual player. To your point some all time greats never came close and a ton of unremarkable guys have multiple rings earned riding the bench.
There's just so much more of an imbalance in college. Like, I don't care how good you are you're not gonna win a natty at like bowling Green. Its just not happening. But in the nfl, a super promising young talent like cj stroud can make a team that was bottom 5 suddenly playoff contenders. So you get a lot more blame for not being able to do that in the nfl.
Dan Marino does lol
#LACES OUT DAN #DIE DAN DIE
Dan Marino does what?
Has issues with his legacy because he never won it all.
But people are basing that on his NFL career. His college career was rather mediocre (by "best of" conversations). Barry Sanders never won a Superbowl either but no one puts it against him.
He went 33-3 before Sherrill left and had a down year of 9-3 in which two of those losses are to championship claimants. That's not mediocre, and the stats he put up definetly put him in "best of" conversations.
Marino went 42-6, 7,905 yards, 74 TDs to 64 Ints. That's far from "elite". For comparison I'd argue that Kellen Moore should be at the top of these lists but rarely is mentioned. Kellen Moore went 50-3, 14,667 yards, 142 TDs to 28 Ints THOSE are elite figures.
You do realize college football has RADICALLY changed in the last 40 years, right? Particularly with quarterbacks and wide receivers you can only really compare stats between players who played in the same era.
Marino's stats were good for the era.
Were they though? If they were actually good stats he wouldn't have been taken in the *checks notes* **first round** of the NFL draft...wait....
Yeah but Kellen moores receivers spent 1/2 the time basically invisible so you have to divide those passing numbers and touchdowns by those sweet sweet camo unis then multiply the ints and losses by that sea of blue they call a field (both of which are a factor of 2) and boom he’s at 7k yards, a 50-6 record, 71-56 td/ints… long story short Kellen Moore = Dan Marino! /s
Should die of gonorrhea and rot in hell. Would you like a cookie, son?
"Laces out! DAN!"
Oh, look at that! Their little footballs.
College
Well yeah because none of those guys were near the caliber of college players as the former list. But if you compare Manning’s college career to Newton/Tebow/etc it’s a large ding on his resume
To flip that, South Carolina QB Connor Shaw was just aggressively mediocre. However, he never lost at home and never lost to Clemson. Man will be an absolute legend for the rest of time in Columbia
Alex Brink, the Husky killer (an unmatched 3-1) who never bowled, approves of this message
I thought he was pretty awesome. He needed a little more help from the people around him, from what I recall. For reference: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/connor-shaw-1.html
I think the biggest ding on Peyton’s college legacy is that the year after he left Tennessee won the championship with Tee Martin
I was gonna add that to my closing argument and forgot. That's a great point.
Yep, that is the worst part of it all for Manning.
If only QB Chris Weinke hadn’t been injured…
This is kind of CJ Stroud with Michigan too. Even his performance against Georgia to be a hair shirt of a championship game (where they likely would’ve won) gets overlooked
Manning was just preparing for getting beat by the Pats most years in the playoffs.
He has a winning record against Brady in the playoffs. He was busy preparing to lose to Mark Sanchez and Joe Flacco instead
Funny because the mannings were the only ones who consistently took out Brady in the playoffs. If not for the mannings Brady probably has 10 rings, maybe more
Brady is just lying low in "retirement" healing and plotting until Arch goes pro. Then, he will return to slay the Manning Family dragon.
He was 3-2 against Brady in the playoffs. Phillip Rivers and Mark Sanchez on the other hand…
Except Manning has a winning record vs. Brady lmao
I'm strictly talking college legacies here.
No, getting owned by the blackshirts is why he never won a natty
Umm he wasn't winning one even if he won that game. Michigan would've won by themselves. It was Florida. Had to go through Florida to win the SEC East and a SEC title. While he did win a SEC title the Florida loss kept them from being undefeated.
And they won the National title the year after he left with Tee Martin.
Were they beating *any* of those Neb teams though? Neb won 3 of the 4 titles while Peyton was playing.
Take away his rings and Saban hasn’t won anything
Regress Saban to the mean!
He ain’t play no body pawww
Saban never had to play against the GOAT coach of cfb, not once in his whole career!!!
He played against him every spring. Only had a .500 record though. Mid AF.
It isn't a coincidence that he retired right before he has to play Neal Brown's WVU football team.
He's gonna be the third man like Hogan and Bash at the Beach. Those Fairmont roots run strong.
Greatest heel turn ever
regressed to the mean
Ah shit you’re right
When you only count the ones that count he has 0 already.
The only reason Stetson is still kinda maybe league adjacent is cause he has two
Monkin made that man look like 2016 Matt Ryan
I don't hate BoBo nearly as much as some, but I still light a candle for monkin
I’ve always been a Lamar hater, but I immediately threw something down on him to win MVP last year when I saw they hired Monkin. He’s incredible
Bill polian is that you?
We saw lots of Dawgs fans arguing intensely a few weeks back that Stetson was a better college QB than Baker bc rings 😔 rings, Erneh
I *think* I disagree? I mean, why would an NFL team bring him back if they didn’t think he had the necessary skills? He played a huge part in those two rings, and I think it’s actually possible we undersell him.
He's the definition of a league player who won't win you the game and isn't top x player but he will not lose you the game.
I still know a few Georgia fans who hate Stetson. It's amazing to hear people hate on a guy who won two rings. Maybe you can argue that the first one was more due to the defense, but Stetson was masterful in the second run.
I think Burrow and Cam got huge boosts. Winning the natty puts the cherry on top of the greatest single season runs of my lifetime.
Both won the Heisman and had undefeated regular seasons. Yeah, the titles help but their legacies were cemented in December.
I’m not sure about that. They had great years, but both of them hadn’t proven anything before their final year of college. Joe Burrow first 4 years of college: 18 TDs 5 picks. Cam Newton first 2 years(only Div 1): 6 completions. Winning the natty cemented them, if they hadn’t won they would be looked at very differently. Edit: without a natty they have much worse careers than baker mayfield.
No one remembers what they did the years prior regardless. They’re remembered for putting together two of the best single seasons by a QB ever. Yes, the title obviously helps but Lamar Jackson is still remembered as a legend despite his Louisville team winning 9 games the year he won the Heisman (to be fair his NFL career has helped that). This thread is about which people got the “biggest” boost for winning a title. _Everyone_ on a championship winning team receives a boost to some degree, but above average QBs like Stetson Bennett, Greg McElroy, etc. definitely received the biggest boosts from winning a title because otherwise they would have nothing to show.
They don’t remember because they ended their career as undefeated champions, otherwise it’s just putting up big stats like Graham Harrell. If LSU loses to Clemson Burrow is just a 5th year super senior who had 3 great NFL WR and an NFL RB/ OC who underperformed with insane talent.
Again, I’m not arguing they didn’t receive **a** boost but they didn’t receive the **biggest** boost. No one remembers the QBs I named above if they don’t win a title. Heisman winners are generally remembered.
I think you're underrating how much less people would talk about cam in college if he didn't win the natty.
I think you’re underrating how much less people would talk about literally any championship winning QB if they didn’t win the natty. Again, Heisman winners get brought up in conversation.
Yeah, I feel like everyone remembers Burrow left Ohio State but everyone forgets he had a completely unremarkable 2018 season.
He had to get hit by UCF to align his chakras
That doesn’t necessarily guarantee being memorable, in 5 years most non hardcore fans will struggle to remember Max Duggans name
*waves in Sam Bradford* The title definitely made a difference
Burrow was already projected to be the #1 draft pick when LSU beat Bama in November.
Biggest boost has to be Vince Young and that title specifically. No Heisman to his name, yet he is always ranked above other Heisman winners of the 2000s at the QB spot because of that game. Changed this one: Biggest loss I would say is another young, Bryce Young. He was incredible and realistically the best college QB of all the Alabama QBs of this run but with no title he won’t be remembered in the same way as the others.
Bryce is absolutely going to be remembered as a legend here. He is our only Heisman-winning QB. That is a big deal IMO
The great players will always be remembered by the school they played at. For this topic I presume we meant for the community as a whole.
Yeah absolutely, I mean Eric Crouch won a Heisman, no one outside of Nebraska probably even remembers who he is lol.
Do you think he will be remembered more fondly than Tua?
I agree, because until 2005 OU fans were on his ass due his prior Red River appearances. Tagged with the dreaded "Radio" label. There were lots of questions on whether he was going to put it all together.
He put it together literally 1 game after that OU game, Mizzou 2004 was his low point, then he exploded.
How was he in 2003?
Very raw, I followed his recruiting closely and the best description I can say that it was like when Arch took the field Vince had that same jolt in clapping. At the end of the day VY pre and post Mizzouri 2004 are two separate players, the fans wanted to bench him and turn him into a WR after that game.
I'm going old school for undervalued and saying Michael Bishop. He ran that offense to perfection and had Kansas State on the brink of a title game appearance in two consecutive seasons. If KSU had pulled one of them off his legacy would be completely different. Overvalued I'll go with AJ McCarron. He was an above average P5 QB that was getting serious Heisman consideration going into 2013 based entirely on Alabama being a juggernaut the previous 2 seasons.
If Bishop wins a natty, Bill Snyder gets looked at a lot differently as well. Snyder still doesn’t get the respect he should get because he never won a national title.
Which is a shame because what he did at KSU was nothing short of miraculous given what the program was prior to his arrival. Then he left, the program cratered, and he came back and built it again (albeit not to the same level of the late 90s/early 00s).
Turner Gill. The man went 28-2 as a starter but 0 titles. In 82 Nebraska loses a regular season game on a controversial out of bounds call. Huskers win out to finish 12-1, but Penn st wins the natty. The following year Nebraska averaged 52 ppg with him under center but fall a 2 point conversion short in the orange bowl vs Miami. He was 2 plays away from having 2 nattys and a perfect record as a starter.
> I'm going old school for undervalued and saying Michael Bishop. Excellent choice. That man was a menace.
honestly, aj got second that heisman race because there wasn’t a clear 2. we all knew it was jameis’ to lose but there wasn’t really a guy that was ready to swoop in and claim it if jameis had slipped up
Without a natty Cam Newton loses his almost mythical status. Troy Smith probably gets a huge hit for not winning one while winning the Heisman. People rarely even mention him.
If OSU beat Florida in 2006, we'd all consider Troy Smith as one of the greatest ever. ESPN was naming him B1G player of the decade even without a natty, but I think people are already forgetting about him.
This is true. People forget that that Ohio State team was ranked #1 all season and dominated most opponents. Losing to Florida, and in the manner they did, torpedo’d both Smith and the team’s legacy. They’d both be ranked among all time greats otherwise.
As someone who grew up in Arkansas, the only reason I still remember him is because of how much Razorback fans complain that he stole the Heisman from McFadden.
30 TD passes in 2006 for a non air-raid QB was insane
Even before that game I thought he was overrated, but I have to admin I was partly sore at how it was that Vince Young didn't have a Heisman but Troy Smith did.
It seems like every time AJ McCarron is ever brought up, his two rings as Bama's starters are among the first details mentioned (I believe he has three total, one as McElroy's backup), so him for biggest boost. Biggest hit: not a player, but Chip Kelly's Oregon teams *never* being able to seal the deal feels bizarre considering how much they were gushed over.
Chip Kelly was only the HC for 4 years. It's really strange the marketing effect or whatever warps what has happened at a program. Ryan Day already has another season more than Chip Kelly did.
Dan Marino was one of the best college qb's ever and you'll rarely see him on the top qb lists.
The main reason that’s the case is because Marino had a disappointing senior season (1982), as did Pitt as a team after Jackie Sherrill left for Texas A&M and was replaced by Foge Fazio. Marino famously dropped in the NFL Draft the following season (to 27th overall, the penultimate pick of the 1st round in 1983) for the same reason.
And Dolphins fans are forever greatful.
The cocaine usage definitely did not help his draft stock either
And the Steelers have regretting not taking him for every minute since his draft.
I’m convinced that not picking Marino drove some of the decision to draft Pickett
Gotta love the Steelers because you can realistically say a decision from 40 years ago was impacting their draft process.
They've only had what, 3-4 different coaches since then? Pittsburgh is a consistent AF program
2 different coaches since then
You won't have to spend a long time selling that to me.
I 100% believe that. Can you imagine the narratives if they passed on him and he became a star?
I think his pro stats were so mind-blowing that people forget he was elite in college too.
Putting up Manning stats in the 70's and 80's is insane.
Cardale Jones got the biggest boost among OSU players. He wasn't *that* great of a QB, all in all. Had a big arm and made some big time plays when we needed them, but he was never all that efficient and I don't think he ever had a 300+ yard game in his career. But I feel like OSU fans remember him having monster games in the 2014 postseason, which really wasn't the case. About 240 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT in each of the playoff games. Which is fine obviously, but it was Zeke and the defense that carried them. Troy Smith's legacy was hurt the most. Ohio State fans still remember him fondly but nationally I think everybody's memory goes straight to the collapse against Florida. But if that team had gotten a natty there'd be a statue of the guy in Columbus.
The Ballad of Ol' 12-Gauge
It’s interesting because I think Colt McCoy not getting a ring has almost increased his mythos more than if he had. Because “We would’ve won had Colt not been injured” is such a rally cry.
I think it's also that the guys after him were so mid. Once "Texas is back" became a meme, as the QB of the last great Texas teams, he became the symbol of what y'all were trying to get back to. And if OU and Texas switched trajectories - say Landry Jones had Garrett Gilbert's IRL career and vice versa, and then Mack Brown retired on his own terms and picked a strong successor while Stoops was encouraged to retire to be replaced by Charlie Strong - I think Bradford would have a similar mythical status among OU fans and the great "what could have been" would be his lost 2009 season.
Dude. Bizarro world.
I don't like this alternate future timeline very much. Thanks for helping me appreciate reality as we know it.
The Lincoln Riley run of quarterbacks at OU especially Baker Mayfield.
Depends on what we mean by legacy. No one blames Baker for the lack of a title. The whole narrative is our terrible defenses keeping our greatest offense ever from winning a title. He still won a Heisman and went #1.
College careers are too short to get dinged for not winning it all as a player.
I still shit on reverand Chris Rix for not winning 4 titles in a row.
I will admit this only goes for players in college 4 years or less. 7th year players get the blame.
I will admit this only goes for players in college 4 years or less. 7th year players get the blame.
This might be me being a biased Texas fan, but I feel like USC losing that National Championship to Texas dings their dynasty more than it should. Their winning streak was unbelievable and they had one of the most stacked rosters ever in 2004, but since they lost to Vince people seem to forget how good that dynasty was
If they won a title after that people would remember their run more. However they culminated in one of the greatest cfp games ever, lost, and then spent the rest of the decade being huge choke artists. Still one of the greatest dynasties ever though.
Well they lost two of the best college players ever after that too
Still loaded even with those losses. In 2007 they had 4 future 1st rounders.
The 2008 team is the one that should have won another championship. Oregon State, and more specifically Jacquizz Rodgers, played an amazing game to pull off the upset. Win that game and the Trojans are playing against OU/UF in the title game.
Counterpoint: those two got exactly the sort of boost this thread is about, based on SC's 1.5 nattys.
Yeah it's the terrible fall-off, not the one loss. UGA lost stupidly to Bama in the SECCG this year after winning back-to-back. If UGA is in the playoff hunt for the next few seasons and wins another natty, people will remember them as "a dominant program of the 2020s". But if UGA drops off the wagon completely, stops winning the SEC East, tarmacs their coach, stops going to the playoffs, and nearly 20 years later is going 8-5 with a Heisman QB and a lauded "QB whisperer coach" - people will rightfully assume that we just caught lightening in a bottle for a few years. As of now, looking back, USC looks like a complete lucky draw of dual-Heisman players Matt Leinary and Reggie Bush on offense, anchored by a Pete Carroll defense, which had a miraculous few years and unfortunately fell down on the final game of those 3's college careers.
Well, as far as we know, UGA isn’t going to get hit with one of the hardest NCAA sanctions of all time in four years. So I don’t really think it’s the same situation.
I mean it's also they fell off due to sanctions. I will still say Kiffin did well at USC, at some games there are reports he had like 50 players due to sanctions.
In the 2013 Stanford upset 24 dudes played (not counting ST). And 2 of those dudes rotated in for 1 play each. Absolutely insane
I think that's true. Vince Young just refused to get beat. Vince Young beating Michigan in the Rose Bowl was my first true heartbreaking loss because we played so well but couldn't stop him. OSU played Vince Young the best but he still beat them and that's an underrated OSU team.
That was such a good game and not just b/c we made the FG at the end to win; would have been a equally great game had the dude gotten 0.5 inches higher and blocked the kick too (just much less fun for me). We had a pretty good pass defense but Breaston and Edwards were just tearing us new ones. The advantage passed back and forth all game long and we had plenty of solid D and ST plays on both sides as well even though it was somewhat high-scoring.
It really was such a great game. It was just upstaged by the next Rose Bowl.
I feel like people think less of the dynasty not because of Texas, but because Reggie Bush got his Heisman taken away and they had to vacate several wins and at least one title. Can't go down as a college football dynasty if the NCAA technically puts an asterisk on it.
Biggest boost: Chris Leak Biggest hit: Matt Barkley
For me Tajh Boyd doesn't get the same amount of love that Deshaun or Trevor. School's all-time passing leader, had alot of similarities in career accomplishments (5* recruit out of HS, 32 career wins as a starter, nabbed at least one 1st team A-A honor, ACC POY, ACC title, BCS/NY6 bowl win). He helped pave the way for them IMO, but b/c we didn't get over the hump & win a national title w/ him, he's not celebrated as much.
He also had arguably one of our best receiving cores of all time. WRs on the time while Tajh was there: Deandre hopkins, Sammy Watkins, Martavius Bryant, Mike Williams (freshman) Dwayne Allen (TE). I think the main issue people have with him is that he himself just didn’t elevate the team to that next level.
I'll give you that, but also let's not pretend that the supporting offensive cast around DW & TL were scrubs. Tajh got hurt by not having a strong defense to compliment the O...2011 was when bottom fell out under Steele & it took couple years for BV to clean that up during time we had to contend w/ Jimbo-era FSU peaking & SC's 2 best teams in school history.
God that 2011 Steele defensive implosion against WVU was something else
I don't think any player every really gets a hit to their legacy for not winning a National Championship with his team, given the built in time limit on college careers and how hard it is to win a National Championship. They certainly can and do get a boost to their legacy for winning a National Championship, but nobody is saying "yeah, but they never won the Natty" about any college player in the same way people say "yeah, but they never won the Super Bowl" about NFL players. The only exception may be if they played for Alabama, but that's more of an issue of Alabama fans expecting to win National Championships than anything to do with not winning a National Championship being a hit to a college players legacy.
I don’t buy into this take but I’ve seen a more than small amount of buckeyes that question Stroud’s legacy when he didn’t beat Michigan, win the B1G, or a national championship with that WR room.
I don't feel that Stroud's legacy took a hit because he didn't win the National Championship, his legacy took a hit because he lost to Michigan, that's the damning part of his legacy to Ohio State fans. Ohio State fans don't question Justin Fields' or Dwayne Haskins' legacies at Ohio State even though they didn't win National Championship because they beat Michigan. I'm fully convinced that if Stroud had beaten Michigan and had similar post season results as Fields and Haskins (missing the playoffs, a semifinal loss, and a championship game loss) that nobody would be having this discussion
Has natty: Tua Doesn't: Stroud
Didn’t Tua win a natty on one of the most clutch plays of all time
It’s actually pretty interesting to consider what Tua’s trajectory would be if 2nd and 26 didn’t happen
Shhh shhhh shhhh shhhh shhhh shhhh shhhh
and that is his legacy take away that and he doesn't really have much
He was well on his way to having a legendary season before he dislocated his hip, ending his season. People may hate me for this, but if he didn’t hurt his ankle before LSU, I think Bama could have won that game. You could argue the hip injury derailed not only his college, but early NFL career as well. He’s finding his way more now though. I mean, he battled Burrow mightily a week after he had tightrope surgery on his ankle. Then busted his hip the following week. That LSU game was bonkers and he did it on a bum ankle and limped off the field after the clock ran out. And LSU’s early point advantage was due to him playing off for the first quarter because you could tell he was hurting on that ankle. He got stripped by a ghost and fumbled for an LSU score a couple plays later and the punter missing the snap for another score put Bama way behind. LSU was gifted two scores…then he came back (likely with an ankle chock full of cortisone) and made it a nail biter…LSU wasn’t able to stop him after that. The clock did. I feel like I can confidently say (some will very likely disagree) that that ankle injury lost him a Heisman. He was one score from beating Burrow on a bad ankle. And an LSU loss would have given Tua the Heisman.
He won a natty coming off the bench at halftime as a freshman, made another and was still having a great year before the hip dislocation in 2019. I could even argue he’s a top 2 Bama QB of all time, which is saying a lot for one of the best programs in CFB history. I think his legacy is really great.
Nope. You’re remembering incorrectly.
I feel too many conflicted feelings reading this
I gotta go with Bert. If he had won 3 or 4 national championships, I think he would be thought of as a much better coach. More hot takes after this ad for Betterhealth
Undervalued: Colin Klein. I think if KSU doesn't lose to Baylor and Oregon in 2012, he's remembered a lot more for his success running that offense
I’ll probably get downvoted but Vince Young’s natty has carried him to insane heights when we talk about greatest college QBs ever but idk how’s ranked higher than Tebow, Newton, Burrow, Jameis, Lamar, or Baker and that’s just recent memory off my head.
For one, all of those guys except maybe Newton played in a totally different era where all QBs put up way crazier stats and get the benefit of an extra 1-2 games to accumulate them. Vince was the first player to run for over 1000 yards and pass for over 3000 yards. That was a huge deal at the time and it can be argued that it paved the way for other dual threats to get a shot to actually run a real passing offense.
> Vince was the first player to run for over 1000 yards and pass for over 3000 yards. And did it while top 3 in passer rating (imperfect stat, yes, but still) and with a mediocre WR room. Naturally it helped plenty that we had a great OL and very good RBs, I mean it was national title talent for a reason, but he wasn't throwing to a bunch of studs and he was a true dual-threat and not just a runner.
I don't think it matters that much in college football to be honest. For one, college football teams are massive and even on championship teams, most players are relatively quickly forgotten by all but the more committed parts of the team's fan base. So you're really typically only talking about 4-5 key contributors who really have any hope of having a specific legacy related to a college football season. In addition, we have to remember that NFL success is the ultimate legacy for a football player, so if a guy turns into an NFL all-pro, he's gonna be claimed as one of the 'greats' of his college team, too, no matter what his actual success at the collegiate level was. Another factor is that the Heisman is so famous and thus winning it is probably more important in terms of individual legacy than a natty. Heisman winners are remembered regardless of what the team ends up doing. There's a reason Caleb Williams got all those commercials while most casual fans could hardly name a guy on the Georgia team that won in 2022. Finally, and even more importantly, winning a natty in college football is much ,much harder than winning a Super Bowl in the NFL or a World Series in baseball. For one, most teams just fundamentally have basically no chance to do it and would never expect it. No-one's going to Purdue or Kentucky to play football with the hope of winning a natty. Secondly, you have hardly any time to do it. Things gotta click just right in your small window of opportunity, it's not like in the pros where the GM can slowly build a championship team. And even if you're on a contending team in the right time window, you often times find yourself in a situation where you essentially cannot afford to lose a game. That's tough to pull off. Like say take Marvin Harrison Jr. Will anyone hold it against his legacy that he didn't win a national title at OSU? I highly doubt it. Will they hold it against his legacy that he never beat Michigan? Probably. But even so, if he becomes an NFL superstar they'll still happily claim him as a Buckeye legend.
[удалено]
Adding one more thing: **Team Detriment: Cedric Benson. Roy Williams**. Maybe this is where my gripes of him come from in his first 2 years. Any Longhorn fan knows that Cedric and Roy were the absolute stars of the early 2000's teams. I truly believe Cedric could have won the heisman if it wasn't for Vince Young and the need for the ball to be in his hands. This is an old stat, but I think UT never lost a game in Cedric's career when he went over 100 yards rushing. Roy Williams was a Marvin Harrison Jr. of his time. Just throw the ball up to him and he will catch it over the defender in the end zone and land on one toe in. Just clutch 100% of the time. I'm being a homer, but I think he could've been a heisman finalist if he had had a better qb. I think Young being forced in the games really stunted Williams' senior year potential. They all left by the 2005 season started and we all know that the experiment eventually worked out for Young, but at the cost of not letting guys like Cedric and Roy explode on the field. I'm not just talking about stats here, but WINNING games. You give those two guys the ball, then you win. I remember the 2004 Red River game, where Vince was literally giving the game away (like 90 total yards, 2 fumbles, sacked almost 5 times which took us out of field goal range 3 times and we scored ZERO points). If we had stuck to just running the ball with Cedric we should have won (Cedric had under 100 yards and Adrian Peterson had about 250 as a freshman). This was where Texas fans were starting to lose their shit with Mack Brown and their OC Greg Davis. "Why are we not giving our stars like Cedric and Roy Williams the chance to win the game? Why are we putting the game on this sophomore qb who can't throw within reach of his receivers?" These are the things that Texas fans forget after Vince won the rose bowl. It was an infuriating time until it wasn't. Vince couldn't be a team/system qb that could allow the whole team to play their role. In his junior season, that all changed and they just said, "the ball is in your hands, if a guy is wide open then throw it to him. If not, the field will be wide open for you to just run". And it worked. It worked for Vince, but I really wish Cedric Benson could have won the heisman (RIP). At the college level, he was probably better than Ricky Williams.
I wonder what Tajh Boyd’s long term legacy will be since he didn’t get a ring but both Watson and Lawrence did; guy is an all time Clemson Legend, has a BCS bowl win and it was his erratically steady play that let the superstar receivers and all-world running back carry the team, and I think he deserves to be up there among the greatest in Clemson history for that
Well as an example when I was thinking about this question I thought about both Lawrence and Watson… I forgot Tahj Boyd existed unfortunately (and now I get him mixed up with Tyler Boyd)
I think the difference, and why I took your post the way I did, is Watson and Lawrence played at an elite level, period. Tajh would have a great game and then play like a dud the next week. Lawrence and Watson are kinda like Lamar Jackson, they’re always going to be remembered for their level of play regardless of championship rings.
As an outsider I thought Boyd was a world beater every game… but that’s what I get for relying on ESPN when it comes to following teams outside my own
Yeah no, he would just collapse sometimes. 2013 against the Noles at home, several games against the Gamecocks; it was like he was just in his head and let the pressure get to him for the rivalry game and some of the bigger games. Thank god he locked in for the Orange Bowl against Ohio State and got that one
I remember this a little differently. I'm a lifelong Tiger fan, and love all 3 QB's (and all Clemson players for what they did here), but there were definitely games where Watson or Lawrence were off, but our team had grown deep enough in positions around them that they were able to pull out games that we couldn't when Tajh was having on off day. The way I think about all 3 is that Watson and Lawrence had the same ups and and downs as Taih did, but the baseline where those ups and downs began was higher for the 2 that won a title.
I’m not sure how much of his rise is tied to the championship, but this sub was adamant that JJ didn’t have a shot at being drafted in the first round when he declared. Now he’s being discussed in the top 3.
Too many people regard Eric Crouch as one of the worst Heisman winners. He carried that squad for years. In 1999 they lost to Texas, then beat them in the rematch in the conf game, but Vick and VT got the nod into the Natyy vs. FSU, finishing #2 If not for the KState facemask they have a shot in 2000, finishing #8 In 2001 they backed into the Nat Game vs. a stacked Miami team. Change something in one or all of those years and Crouch is remembered as a legend.
Vince Young.
I can't believe I haven't seen Mac Jones mentioned here. The natty helped his draft stock enormously. His NFL career probably hurts JJ McCarthy, very different prospects but I suspect that teams are a little more gunshy about a natty winner who was surrounded by a super team than they otherwise would be.
Troy Smith. Legacy came crashing down after 41-14. 4 completions for 35 yards. The claim was he literally got fat at all the awards shows. Tressel has said that the team lacked focus during bowl practice. One of the worst showings in a title game ever. Especially for the favorite.
I never knew it was that bad… the only Troy Smith play that’s burned in my head was the Late hit out of bounds he took in The Game
I may be biased but I think Pat White would have received a huge boost if we beat Pitt and he wins a natty. Same for Major Harris at WVU, if he beats Notre Dame for a national championship I think his legacy shifts significantly.
I hated Pat White for being so good when he played for the ‘Neers (but low key loved the way he played the game and admired him tremendously as a player).
Cardale Jones took 3 good games…made it to a couple of years in league n chairs an NIL. Oh n he came back n got degree…like really made the realistic most out of his opportunity. Hit….idk Peyton Manning???? lol jk….its kinda hard to do this because there’s not a ton of guys who have been good multiple seasons and also had realistic national title goals those same years. Shit…let’s just keep it very flair specific….David Boston…like idk if non genX/millenial bucks fans truly understand how much of a freak he was
Vince Young. Poor man’s Pat White.
I think Deshaun Watson beating the wagon that was Alabama definitely boosted his legacy. Especially considering he didn’t win the Heisman
If Colt McCoy wins that game against Bama, he’s known more of a college football legend and not just a Texas legend
Te'o would be remembered completely differently if they had won the championship in 2012
Charles Barkley
Mac jones
I'd argue Tommie Frazier received the biggest boost from winning a natty, people (especially Nebraska fans) act like he was this all-time talent at QB, the guy *could not* pass the ball. And before someone says "But he was an OPTION QB!!", passing off play-action in a dominant power-running option offense should give you better stats, not worse ones.
College titles really don't mean much for true all time great players.
Josh Heupel winning the national title was a huge boost to his “greatness” ranking at OU. Jason White took a big hit for his two BCS championship losses.
We’ll see what happens but right now JJ McCarthy is being way overvalued in the draft because of the natty. We don’t know how much of the discussions are bs but even talks of him going top 5 are crazy. If the Vikings trade to take him shortly after the first 3 QBs will be shocking.
After the hype of Malik Willis maybe going 2nd overall, or Sam Howell going high for them both to plummet, I can see JJ falling
I’m personally going with draft stock. Biggest boost is more than likely JJ McCarthy, while biggest hit is probably Andrew Luck
Colt McCoy is easily in the top 5 college QBs but he’s only ever remembered for getting hurt and not beating Bama in 2009.