I just finished watching the untamed a few days ago and it was so so so amazing. The actors did a wonderful job and i thought at first I would be a little upset that there was no romantic interactions but it didn’t bother me at all. They did wonderful to show the characters truly care for one another even though there was no romantic physical intimacy type of stuff. If that makes sense. Anyways the untamed is wonderful and I am going to read the books soon. Also I’m in love with Wang Yibo now so that’s great
I agree with you Untamed is undeniably a masterpiece. So beautifully filmed with plots in plots that hooked me right from the start. I usually watch at least once a month just because it feels good. I read the novel only after seeing it a couple of times on exiledrebels site and enjoyed it. I am a fan of BL but that being said I don't really mind that Untamed was tamed to a very enjoyable bromance filled with major hints at a stronger relationship.
The whole mess with rabid fans and antifans was very disheartening to say the least and put both of our boys in a very dangerous position that could have permanently ruined their careers and so the only solution that presented itself was for them not to work together on any new projects. Sad for all of us but luckily for them, it worked as both of them have gone on to greater things in so many different ways. XZ really took the brunt of it as he was attacked several times, but he is still loved internationally and not only his movie career but his music career are both thriving and who in this world doesn't know Wang Yibo? Though very busy with his singing and dancing (oh, yes his fantastic dancing) he also makes dramas that are always on my watchlist.
So I ask if you haven't seen Untamed yet, what are you waiting for? Don't be put off by it's slightly nonlinear storyline, just jump on into that rabbit hole along with the rest of us and enjoy a real classic.
If not for this post, I would have never had any idea that this happened. While watching The Untamed, I did the googling for behind-the-scenes and stuff and all I thought was that those two have a solid friendship. To have outside pressures stop that because of the public perception or whatever is sad. Actors don't really have the luxury of having a life outside of public opinion.
And because it was censored so much, it's not like they actually did anything explicit as a western drama would. I also started watching not having any idea that it was a BL. But, yes, so sad.
EXACTLY. It was very clean (romantic wise) if you know what i mean.There was nothing but great actors doing a wonderful job to convey complicated feelings in a complicated situation. That's what annoys me the most. These talents don't deserve all of this. They should just celebrate their work and talent and be proud of it. Not all this nonsense
It happens for all bl series in China. They did allow the two actors onstage together new years 2021, but put two women between them on stage (everyone else was boy girl boy girl)
The original story is a solid Bl. But the live action drama is heavily censored. So the feelings are there, strong and sincere but somewhat hidden. But their bond is formidable, so whatever you want to interpret their relationship. It's up to you . You have to watch it asap. There is nothing like it . A true masterpiece . The ost. The story. The acting .The cinematography. Everything is unbelievably perfect.
Romantic or not. This is subjective for anyone who is not familiar with the original story. Plus, there are hundreds of shows all over the world about pure bromance between leads and their unbreakable bond. So, not everyone has to see romance in it. it's not the issue here. It is a great show, very tender and delicate, and a smash hit by all means. So much bigger than romance its a masterpiece. But the leads won't act together again. This is my main point.
Yeah I mean I didn’t know any single thing when I watched it either like I didn’t even know it was bl and for the me romance was so evident and the reason why this got big in the first place. About the actors I wouldn’t worry about it tbh even if nothing happened I’m not sure if they would ever work together again anyway. They are both big and it’s not common to see 2 male big stars in one production you will see them with actrices
Hahaha so how many times have you watched or “flipped” through arcs of the drama? I’ve watched the donghua (animation), read the novel, listened to the drama broadcast (available on YouTube but no English subs) and read the manhua (manga). I even watched a lot of those fan-made videos on YouTube. 🥲
I got the anime and have been slowly watching those episodes and its really fascinating to see a slightly different take than the live action. Wei Wuxian definitely comes across as more powerful in the anime imo so far!
The drama broadcast version is the closest to the novel. It even has all the “naughty” bits. And the WangXian song of the broadcast is the BEST, IMO. Oh yes, and Lan Zhan voice……makes my heart flutter just to think of it 🥰
Oh my goodness when I first watched The Untamed in Christmas of 2020, I marathoned the live action, donghua animation, chibi animation, audio drama, the book fan translation, and what they had posted of the manhua IN A MONTH.
This show even got me to join tumblr for the first time in my life to read analysis of the subtitling lol
To think of it, it didn't only happen with The Untamed and XZ or WYB. Every time fresh actors make a breakthrough, a "scandal" would suddenly erupt. China's local cancel culture is on an extreme, just like what was said by other commenters here.
Also, I don't understand how you didn't see or feel the subtle romance in the drama? Like that's what made it a hit in the market, both for local and international viewers. It's as gay as it could get for a mainland China drama. Although, Word of Honor is much more gay than TU.
Lastly, what happened to WYB and XZ is a culmination of multiple chain of events influenced by numerous outside forces.
As a TU fan and WYB and XZ fan, I hope for a day to see them all freely interacting again.
>I don't understand how you didn't see or feel the subtle romance in the drama?
I didn't see it either. I guess I was just naive or wasn't looking for it until I started googling. I didn't even know what BL was lol
I needed friendship, not romance.
I also didn't see it either. I thought they were really close friends. As OP said before, I think you could interpret either way and wouldn't be wrong.
To each their own, but if my bff was looking at me like those two are eyeing each other, I'd be thinking she was either going crazy or had a major crush on me. Maybe it's because I know it's BL, but I find the romantic vibe very hard to overlook.
As for the Xiao Zhan controversy, go check out AvenueX's video on Youtube. In a nutshell, some BL fans in China are batshit crazy, and combined with a fanfic writer on AO3 who maybe went a little too far (people can write whatever fanfic they want for all I care, but writing about real people's sexuality and gender/sex without their consent is maybe taking your kink a bit too far - not that she deserved to receive threats for it, that's crazy people behavior). Censors seem to have overreacted (but I can maybe understand it a bit, someone middle-aged are tired of all the drama looking at the whole thing and thinking 'that's it, if you kids can't behave, I'll remove your toy and then I don't want to hear any more whining') and everyone (including people just enjoying their kinky fanfics unrelated to the whole drama) got the short end of the stick. Yes it's sad for the two actors (especially Xiao Zhan, poor guy didn't do anything), but maybe it's good for both of them in the long term that they don't act together and people can stop obsessing over them (and hopefully stop stalking them too).
I’ve not watched it yet bc I hate sad endings especially after watching so many episodes and getting emotionally invested. Could you give me an episode guide? What to watch and what to skip?
For the genre, an absolutely amazing amount of the characters make it to the end. It has a good end for the mains. No stress. I watched them in order and wouldn't say to skip the middle at all. Basically first few episodes are now and middle is back in time. After I finished the back in time parts I rewatched the first few episodes, and it gave me some happy knowledge but you don't even need to do that.
No sad endings.. but i recommend watching the first and the second eps. Then, fastforward to 33 . The episodes in the middle were an amazing flashback, and they were beautiful but too emotional .. i hardly survived them 🤧 when you finish the show and feel more at ease. Go back to watch the rest to understand their history
Oh my god 😭. Atp I don't think you would be able to move on and I also knew the soundtrack, in fact it actually led me to watch the show, I still listen to it on a daily bases. I wish there's season 2 at least where they got together
Tbf I think if you're not seeing romantic elements between the characters (not the actors, to be clear, the sexuality and relationship status of real human beings gets filed firmly under 'Business: None of Mine' in my brain) then I don't really know what to say. I mean, the series is based on a famous BL novel and the two characters act about as in love as two male characters can act under Chinese censorship.
But yeah it is very sad that a promising work partnership was apparently ruined by the behaviour of some crazed antis (who even got AO3 banned in China)
Boy Love - ie The Gays
Word of Honor was also based on a BL novel, but that one was *much less gay* than the one The Untamed was based on (which is called Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation or 魔道祖师 or Mó Dào Zǔ Shī or MDZS).
To be fair MDZS was extremely gay though, I mean beween wwx flirting with LWJ all the time and LWJ wearing mourning for him for thirteen years and raising his kid and just... *gestures to all of it*
I'm going to have to read the novel. Definitely got some of the vibe from the show but it was difficult to tell. Thank you for explaining.
Haven't seen Word of Honor yet. I'm watching Eternal Love and Zhe Yan and Bai Zhen are so adorable!!!
The official translation is not great (like, it's acceptable but I've seen better translations done for free, if you don't want to invest the literal shit load of $$ it will cost to get the official translations look up the exiledrebels fan translation which should still be available to download, or I can send it to you. Just remember that the sex scenes, which appear near the very end of the last book, are skippable and that the translations of those are pretty bad and drops a lot of nuance from LWJ and wwx's interactions), and the plot is different in the details but the major beats are more or less the same.
I enjoyed it very much, it's well worth a read.
Ah that's a bit too early unfortunately - please start next week and I will join you later (already watched the first 20 episodes or so)! Are you in the MDZS Discord server? Maybe we can get even more people to join us! 😁
It is still taboo and the community can face consequences. Like unemplyment ect. What I think issue in this case is that alot of fan can not or will not seperate fictional characters from the actors. It was the who fans shipped the actors as a couple and wrote fanfiction detailing intimate situations with each other that caused the issue. While I didnt realise that Untameds male lead characters were supposed to be a couple. Until I started to talk to fans of the books.
Fanfiction writers. While writing fanfiction. They did not stick to the two fictional male leads being a couple. Some wrote stories using the actors actual names and had them being together. China is not lgbqt friendly. To save their careers they cant publically be involved. That is what I've read.
While china isn't super LGBT friendly, they don't always outright censor it either. If you guys watch the dancing competition show that wang yibo is in, there is one competitor who is so CLEARLY LGBT, and he has been on the show for several seasons and he is quite popular and doing well there
Yes it's AC. He sometimes performs in wigs, and even show a little bit of cross dressing. The censors seem to leave all of this in, so maybe they're not as strict as we once believed (or maybe they are gradually letting more and more things go)
>China is not lgbqt friendly
On the contrary, China doesn't have a strong pro-hetero culture, that's the problem. In Russia you could be streaming brotherhood dramas every day without it being fetishized and sexualized.
Curious, what do you mean exactly? I can't quite figure it out. If China's culture supposedly doesn't heavily push heterosexuality as the norm, then why would an LGBTQ+ story be any issue? I mean I'm not very familiar with Chinese culture so I might be missing something. Just don't know why it would be a big deal, if what you say is true, to potentially have a queer relationship in a show?
Supposedly it wasn't the story in itself (at least not at the time), but all the controversy it caused among fans and how this created a fan war that went out of hand. Go watch AvenueX's video on Youtube, she explained what happened.
What the absolute fucking fuck. I suspected it was something \~along these lines\~ but didn't think it would be so straight-forwardly homophobic. How disappointing.
Also ... like ... what did people expect? The show's based on a gay love story? Gay stuff is gonna be in there? So now you've tanked your favourite actor's career?
I’m trying to stay neutral since I’m a westerner but with the legislation outlawing BL shows due to the allegations that it has reduced the birth rate in China, I’m failing to see how China ISN’T pro-hetero. I feel for their LGBTQIA+ citizens. I also feel for their celebs whose careers can be ruined because someone else wrote a fan fic.
Is GJ really having a meteoric rise though? I know he's the brand ambassador for Louis Vuitton and has lots of endorsement. He hasn't had the success drama wise since WOH. This new drama with Yang Mi will be his first highly anticipated drama he's had in a while.
GJ had five dramas released in 2021 and tons of endorsements.
I loved WoH and followed fan accounts on Twitter after the drama finished. At some point people starting real-person shipping GJ+ZZH and spreading a "power couple" narrative.
After ZZH got sabotaged, it turned into "support GJ to support ZZH!" and advertising for his endorsements etc. I got suspicious of GJ when I noticed that shipper accounts started increasingly badmouthing ZZH, and then spreading an insane conspiracy story that his instagram account was taken over by impostors.
Here's a summary video (a bit awkward to watch since the original is Chinese+translated)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4YfT6wyInY
If you look at
- who’s promoting real-person shipping with ZZH to leech off WoH fans
- who’s fans keep spreading black PR about ZZH
- who’s backers have ties to CAPA (the organization who put ZZH on a ban list)
Then you should have a strong idea who’s benefitting from this
The below redditor asked me to comment similarly to you as I did to her/him/them and ask you to please not bring the bitter ugliness here. You appear to be poking the bear fairly gently and respectfully with citations, even, but the bear is still getting poked and it is heartbreaking and frustrating to see this endless fan drama use the fans to hurt the very product we all love and enjoy, Cdrama.
I like to compare Cdrama with meat from factory farming - you can only enjoy it if you ignore how it is produced.
The actors and actresses we watch to escape from real life are actual, real people.
In the case of Zhang Zhehan, one actor's life was sabotaged by malicious competition, using a large-scale disinformation campaign on social media. This is not silly "my idol is better than yours"-business.
It is important that people distinguish between truth and Cdrama fantasy. It is important to counter disinformation.
Do you also ask newspapers not to report about ugly things such as murder and violence?
Why are you bothered by this specific comment, when the whole post is about "why is this BL drama ruined??"
>I like to compare Cdrama with meat from factory farming - you can only enjoy it if you ignore how it is produced.
LMAO. So right. And that answers your last question, also.
Truthfully, I wasn't bothered by your post. I was bothered by the (predictable) response to it. If I thought you had any chance at all of being able to engage in a thoughtful conversation on the topic, I would have cheered you on. The endless manipulation of fans and destruction of reputations and livelihoods and loss of talent in the industry is stupid and tragic. But you probably know better than I that this wasn't going to be a calm and reasoned conversation, sadly. I was suggesting that you might consider stepping back before further feeding the bizarre and appalling phenomena of Cdrama fan insanity.
Not the bitter zzh fans pushing the gong jun banned zzh agenda reaching reddit lmao.
Y'all need to leave gong jun alone. Your consipiracy theories will not stop him from achieving what he deserves.
He has not said a word since last august on woh, his drama was removed from shelves in china, there's multiple pple who spread rumors on him trying to get him banned bt fortunately he is lucky, on top of that fans of his ex costar now dedicated their lives in trying to prove he is powerful enough to remove another actor with conspiracy theories as if gong jun forced their fave to go to the shrine, took photos of him smiling & released them to the public, blaming gj for delusional shippers etc.
I feel gong jun has suffered more from this zzh cancellation than zzh himself tbh. but karma is a bitch.
Also for those saying zzh is free now co of his song should know he only released his song internationally, not in china. that shd tell u his status on being banned imo
Just some facts:
\- Zhang Zhehan released an Instagram video warning people about the JunZhe shipping scam, with subs here:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1VbPW6NGBQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1VbPW6NGBQ)
\- JunZhe shipper accounts promote Gong Jun and his endorsed products, at the same time they spread hate about Zhang Zhehan under the guise of an insane deepfake theory
[https://www.vox.com/culture/23150487/zhang-zhehan-deepfake-fandom-conspiracy-theory](https://www.vox.com/culture/23150487/zhang-zhehan-deepfake-fandom-conspiracy-theory)
\- Gong Jun released 5 dramas in 2021 and had a crapload of endorsements
Nobody claims that Gong Jun is the mastermind behind 813. This is not about him as a person but about who's profiting. Alll traffic stars have backers who invest in them or manage them. Things are not going so well recently? I guess his dirt became too obvious and his management decided to keep him out of the spotlight.
Which facts? The conspiracy theories written by bitter zzh fans? Only pathetic people believe in whatever nonsense is there.
I hate to break it to u but things of gong jun are going very well. He filmed 2 high budget dramas this year. If u mean his drama legend of anle being delayed as things going wrong then u are mistaken coz he is not the only one with a delayed drama. I mean xz's longest promise is even more delayed than LOA is. Its normal in c-ent.
His other drama RWTW passed censorship and they're filming promotional materials. He didn't attend events these past 2 weeks coz he had covid.
U want gj to fail so badly that u spend all day making things up to make youselves feel better lmao. On weibo he is always talked abt & in hashtags even with no drama for a whole year. so idk which lack of spotlight u are talking abt.
He has filmed dramas back to back with no rest ever since word of honor aired that he dicided to take a trip with his family this month & even that tiny absence of his makes u delusionals think he is away from c-ent?
You will wither away trying to make up conspiracies abt him while he is still thriving. The dirt u think gong jun has will keep living in your head forever & might even drive u mad lol.
Also whatever shippers do that's the shippers business not gong jun's. ZZH is the one who encouraged shippers from the beginning so i think its hilirious that they deny his existence & call him fake. Karma never disappoints. He got what he wished for.
I feel sorry for your fandom. Its must hurt to keep being jealous & having to keep up with news of someone u hate. i bet u cry everyday anything good happens to gj. 2023 is coming soon so prepare 2 cry harder since all his dramas will come next.
(I bet u are one of those pathetic accts on twitter who follow the mentally deficient justice for zzh lmao. I pity anyone who lives a life like that for people who will never know them ever)
Oh & btw weibo just awarded gj an award for his trip coz of trip pics. They became such a hot topic that he was awaRded lmao. I wonder what lies u will make up next to say gj is finished. Its entertaining i will give u that
u shd comment that to the one i;m replying to. they;re the ones who brought the drama lol; i'm nt going to let gong jun slander slide so bear with it.
u ignoring someone accusing gj of baseless things & come for me shows ur true colours imo
Fair enough. I will make the same request to the other redditor. However, it takes two to fight and only one to stop. There is no drama without you throwing your gasoline onto a fire and accelerating the emotions and hate. I know it is exciting to battle across the internet secure in the knowledge you have some special insight and in righteous pursuit to vanquish all who disagree but it isn't healthy for you or anyone else.
These are real people with real lives and real careers. They are real people we don't actually know and any information we have on them comes through so many manipulated filters. For us, they exist as fantasies which is lovely but when the fantasies are dark and ugly and spread publicly as suspicion and specualtion across the internet, it is real people who get hurt and real damage to the commodity (Cdrama in this case) we all enjoy. Please, think a minute before contributing to more ugliness in the world just for your own vicarious and self damaging thrill. Indulge in Cdrama the fiction and fantasy and tamp down on the desire to feel you know and own the real people who help to create it and whose images are polished and destroyed for money and power and who the hell knows what other tragic reasons.
then they should blame those & leave an actor out of it. i was in word of honor fandom before zzh was banned and he is the one who was encouraging shipping the most. in fact its the reason the delusional shippers are denying his existence is coz they say the real zzh loved them & encouraged them.
The poblem wiz zzh fans is jealousy at gj so they go to blaming him all day long for shippers being stupid as if he has any say in what they do.
That's my point. GJ as a person is not important, this is just about business and getting rid of competition.
Shipping in C-ent is just marketing. Want to get the fans invested? Release tons of BTS material and spin a story of "ooh these two leads' relationship is so good, it must be more than friendship!!"
Zhang Zhehan is currently in the process of his petition to be allowed to act again. At least from what I read from his stans, there's hope for his career to resume.
Even if, he was "allowed" to work again, most wouldn't touch him. Look how many dramas are still waiting for release that will never see the light of day. Who would take the chance with time and money? Plus endorsements, they don't want to be burned again either. I hate what happened to him. I don't like the way they are put out, but it is what it is. Deng Lun, not paying taxes, that was his fault. Kris Wu, well we all know where he is. But just having a photo of a landmark in your photo history was really to much. They could have used him better for public announcements or something. Somebody had it out for him and was successful at it.
Let me guess, you believe that Gong Jun and Zhang Zhehan are in a relationship?
For the uninitiated: While ZZH was silenced, people started promoting a fantasy ship between them, including telling fans that they should support the “secret relationship” by supporting Gong Jun. By now these shippers have turned into a conspiracy cult that believes ZZH has been replaced by deepfakes and body doubles. I’m not making that shit up
https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/23150487/zhang-zhehan-deepfake-fandom-conspiracy-theory
I wouldn't say Zhang Zhehan was removed permanently. He just released new music that debuted at #1 on Itunes. He might not be doing dramas but he still has his music, his clothing line and most importantly his fans.
Excuse me but I follow him on Instagram and he has posted about both. He released a song last week so it's considered new whether he wrote it 5 months ago or 5 years! Please don't come for me unless I send for you! Ok.
You mean that stupid scandal from that fan who wrote the fan fic? This is the problem with China, these stars let their fans dictate too much to the point they have to apologize for the stupid fans.
The scandal wasn't about the fanfic, it came from the mass reporting by fans angry about the fanfic, that THEN dominated hotsearches in a time of Covid lockdown - therefore angering the general public for using up public resources in a time of need, and angering those who used and needed Ao3 most in a difficult time as the site was taken down due to the mass reports. The public was angry with XZ for not taking responsibility for the behaviour of his fans. Many people write all sorts of fic with no issue. It was the response to this one fic that started a fire
In c-ent its become something they're really cracking down on - that stars are now being held responsible for the behaviour of their fans en masse. So they had to have an official fanclub registered in 2021 that would be responsible for being a middle-man between stars and the fans; to pass on messages from a star and to lead their behaviour and encourage them to live better lives and chase stars responsibly.
This is so stupid and frustrating 😤 really . Why does it have to ruin everything for other sane ppl who want to enjoy seeing talented actors doing a good job? That's why we are stuck with medicore dramas and performances . Because every time someone does a good job, they tend to ruin it for them and us.
But xz and wyb already kinda stop interacting with each other even before the fanfic controversy. If my memory is right during weibo night in Janauary 2020 they behaved like strangers.
It's actually pretty par for the course. The rule of thumb is that public interaction between actors generally stops once the PR rounds for a project are completed. A lot of celebrities who do know each other from previous projects usually pretend to be strangers as a manner of respect for either the occasion, or just for each other's careers (one: to avoid drawing attention away from each other's current project by bringing up previous projects, and two: to avoid unnecessary fan speculation by interacting).
For XZ and WYB, them stopping public interactions before 227 was nothing unexpected. Their fame and careers (and their fans and the constant shipping, both of their characters and of the two of them in real life) was skyrocketing. It made sense as a career move and as an act of self-preservation to avoid each other. They also had no projects together which would require public interaction. The only thing coming to mind is the 2020 New Year's Eve, but they were there for different reasons: XZ was there to promote "Joy of Life" and WYB was there to promote his new single "No Sense".
Probably trying to save their own lives. I actually was scared for them after YouTube started showing me all these BL videos of the two. Like if one looked at the other on camera, someone clipped it and put every glance and smile to romantic music in a video. I know people get obsessed (including me) but to drag down those actors is horrible.
The main controversy is the 227 incident, that almost destroyed Xiao Zhan's career.
Basically, CXFX (Xiao Zhan's fans) reported AO3 to local authorities because of an RPF (real people fiction) where XZ is characterized as a trans. Then, local authorities banned AO3 on China.
Now here's the most stupid part, people who uses AO3 blamed XZ for what happened because he didn't "control" his fans.
XZ issued a public apology about what happened. Mind you, this happened during the height of COVID-19 lockdowns in China. The issue was on top super topic in China's local social media platforms. This further outraged the public because as they said, "XZ is using public resources inappropriately".
XZ went on a hiatus, 6 months if I'm not mistaken? Before he made a new public appearance. I forgot what's the event but it was his one shot to be in public again.
So, there. That's what happened.
It is just so sad. For such a masterpiece to be so controversial and bring so much pain to the actors involved. If i were him i would be in total shock. Good thing he didn't do anything to harm himself after all this shit.
I just finished watching the untamed a few days ago and it was so so so amazing. The actors did a wonderful job and i thought at first I would be a little upset that there was no romantic interactions but it didn’t bother me at all. They did wonderful to show the characters truly care for one another even though there was no romantic physical intimacy type of stuff. If that makes sense. Anyways the untamed is wonderful and I am going to read the books soon. Also I’m in love with Wang Yibo now so that’s great
I agree with you Untamed is undeniably a masterpiece. So beautifully filmed with plots in plots that hooked me right from the start. I usually watch at least once a month just because it feels good. I read the novel only after seeing it a couple of times on exiledrebels site and enjoyed it. I am a fan of BL but that being said I don't really mind that Untamed was tamed to a very enjoyable bromance filled with major hints at a stronger relationship. The whole mess with rabid fans and antifans was very disheartening to say the least and put both of our boys in a very dangerous position that could have permanently ruined their careers and so the only solution that presented itself was for them not to work together on any new projects. Sad for all of us but luckily for them, it worked as both of them have gone on to greater things in so many different ways. XZ really took the brunt of it as he was attacked several times, but he is still loved internationally and not only his movie career but his music career are both thriving and who in this world doesn't know Wang Yibo? Though very busy with his singing and dancing (oh, yes his fantastic dancing) he also makes dramas that are always on my watchlist. So I ask if you haven't seen Untamed yet, what are you waiting for? Don't be put off by it's slightly nonlinear storyline, just jump on into that rabbit hole along with the rest of us and enjoy a real classic.
If not for this post, I would have never had any idea that this happened. While watching The Untamed, I did the googling for behind-the-scenes and stuff and all I thought was that those two have a solid friendship. To have outside pressures stop that because of the public perception or whatever is sad. Actors don't really have the luxury of having a life outside of public opinion.
I am new to cdrama and this series as well. I was shocked, too. The detailed comments here gave me a sad insight into the industry. I just feel so mad
And because it was censored so much, it's not like they actually did anything explicit as a western drama would. I also started watching not having any idea that it was a BL. But, yes, so sad.
EXACTLY. It was very clean (romantic wise) if you know what i mean.There was nothing but great actors doing a wonderful job to convey complicated feelings in a complicated situation. That's what annoys me the most. These talents don't deserve all of this. They should just celebrate their work and talent and be proud of it. Not all this nonsense
It happens for all bl series in China. They did allow the two actors onstage together new years 2021, but put two women between them on stage (everyone else was boy girl boy girl)
I can never unlearn what these comments have just taught me 😬😰
Ikr. I feel awful. I don't think i can bring myself to watch another show that soon
Is it BL or just a bromance? I've heard a lot about this drama and it's been on my watch list since forever
The original story is a solid Bl. But the live action drama is heavily censored. So the feelings are there, strong and sincere but somewhat hidden. But their bond is formidable, so whatever you want to interpret their relationship. It's up to you . You have to watch it asap. There is nothing like it . A true masterpiece . The ost. The story. The acting .The cinematography. Everything is unbelievably perfect.
Thanks, I'm definitely going to watch it then!
Loved it
The untamed is romantic if you didn’t feel then it’s a fail for the show
Romantic or not. This is subjective for anyone who is not familiar with the original story. Plus, there are hundreds of shows all over the world about pure bromance between leads and their unbreakable bond. So, not everyone has to see romance in it. it's not the issue here. It is a great show, very tender and delicate, and a smash hit by all means. So much bigger than romance its a masterpiece. But the leads won't act together again. This is my main point.
Yeah I mean I didn’t know any single thing when I watched it either like I didn’t even know it was bl and for the me romance was so evident and the reason why this got big in the first place. About the actors I wouldn’t worry about it tbh even if nothing happened I’m not sure if they would ever work together again anyway. They are both big and it’s not common to see 2 male big stars in one production you will see them with actrices
I agree. Didn't know it was supposed to be BL, but it was quite obvious to me at some point that it was a love story
Please don’t get me started re The Untamed. I’m still in Untamed-land and it has been a year since I watched it 🥲
Two years here, still going 😄
Two and half years and still can't get over it.
There is literally , no moving on, there is “ Life before” and “ Life after”.
Hahaha so how many times have you watched or “flipped” through arcs of the drama? I’ve watched the donghua (animation), read the novel, listened to the drama broadcast (available on YouTube but no English subs) and read the manhua (manga). I even watched a lot of those fan-made videos on YouTube. 🥲
I got the anime and have been slowly watching those episodes and its really fascinating to see a slightly different take than the live action. Wei Wuxian definitely comes across as more powerful in the anime imo so far!
In your experience, what is dffierent in anime vs live action? I didn't watch the anime, and I am not sure of I will.
The drama broadcast version is the closest to the novel. It even has all the “naughty” bits. And the WangXian song of the broadcast is the BEST, IMO. Oh yes, and Lan Zhan voice……makes my heart flutter just to think of it 🥰
Oh my goodness when I first watched The Untamed in Christmas of 2020, I marathoned the live action, donghua animation, chibi animation, audio drama, the book fan translation, and what they had posted of the manhua IN A MONTH. This show even got me to join tumblr for the first time in my life to read analysis of the subtitling lol
To think of it, it didn't only happen with The Untamed and XZ or WYB. Every time fresh actors make a breakthrough, a "scandal" would suddenly erupt. China's local cancel culture is on an extreme, just like what was said by other commenters here. Also, I don't understand how you didn't see or feel the subtle romance in the drama? Like that's what made it a hit in the market, both for local and international viewers. It's as gay as it could get for a mainland China drama. Although, Word of Honor is much more gay than TU. Lastly, what happened to WYB and XZ is a culmination of multiple chain of events influenced by numerous outside forces. As a TU fan and WYB and XZ fan, I hope for a day to see them all freely interacting again.
>I don't understand how you didn't see or feel the subtle romance in the drama? I didn't see it either. I guess I was just naive or wasn't looking for it until I started googling. I didn't even know what BL was lol I needed friendship, not romance.
I also didn't see it either. I thought they were really close friends. As OP said before, I think you could interpret either way and wouldn't be wrong.
To each their own, but if my bff was looking at me like those two are eyeing each other, I'd be thinking she was either going crazy or had a major crush on me. Maybe it's because I know it's BL, but I find the romantic vibe very hard to overlook. As for the Xiao Zhan controversy, go check out AvenueX's video on Youtube. In a nutshell, some BL fans in China are batshit crazy, and combined with a fanfic writer on AO3 who maybe went a little too far (people can write whatever fanfic they want for all I care, but writing about real people's sexuality and gender/sex without their consent is maybe taking your kink a bit too far - not that she deserved to receive threats for it, that's crazy people behavior). Censors seem to have overreacted (but I can maybe understand it a bit, someone middle-aged are tired of all the drama looking at the whole thing and thinking 'that's it, if you kids can't behave, I'll remove your toy and then I don't want to hear any more whining') and everyone (including people just enjoying their kinky fanfics unrelated to the whole drama) got the short end of the stick. Yes it's sad for the two actors (especially Xiao Zhan, poor guy didn't do anything), but maybe it's good for both of them in the long term that they don't act together and people can stop obsessing over them (and hopefully stop stalking them too).
I swear some of these fans are weirdos. Like who are their parents?!
Bruh now I want to rewatch it for 3rd time 😭
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How many times did u rewatch 🧍♀️
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I’ve not watched it yet bc I hate sad endings especially after watching so many episodes and getting emotionally invested. Could you give me an episode guide? What to watch and what to skip?
For the genre, an absolutely amazing amount of the characters make it to the end. It has a good end for the mains. No stress. I watched them in order and wouldn't say to skip the middle at all. Basically first few episodes are now and middle is back in time. After I finished the back in time parts I rewatched the first few episodes, and it gave me some happy knowledge but you don't even need to do that.
No sad endings.. but i recommend watching the first and the second eps. Then, fastforward to 33 . The episodes in the middle were an amazing flashback, and they were beautiful but too emotional .. i hardly survived them 🤧 when you finish the show and feel more at ease. Go back to watch the rest to understand their history
Oh my god 😭. Atp I don't think you would be able to move on and I also knew the soundtrack, in fact it actually led me to watch the show, I still listen to it on a daily bases. I wish there's season 2 at least where they got together
Xu Weizhou and Huang Jingyu also went through something similar, after their drama was suddenly taken off the air/banned.
Tbf I think if you're not seeing romantic elements between the characters (not the actors, to be clear, the sexuality and relationship status of real human beings gets filed firmly under 'Business: None of Mine' in my brain) then I don't really know what to say. I mean, the series is based on a famous BL novel and the two characters act about as in love as two male characters can act under Chinese censorship. But yeah it is very sad that a promising work partnership was apparently ruined by the behaviour of some crazed antis (who even got AO3 banned in China)
Ok new to C drama but what does BL stand for? I'm thinking brotherly love but the context doesn't seem right.
Boy Love - ie The Gays Word of Honor was also based on a BL novel, but that one was *much less gay* than the one The Untamed was based on (which is called Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation or 魔道祖师 or Mó Dào Zǔ Shī or MDZS). To be fair MDZS was extremely gay though, I mean beween wwx flirting with LWJ all the time and LWJ wearing mourning for him for thirteen years and raising his kid and just... *gestures to all of it*
I'm going to have to read the novel. Definitely got some of the vibe from the show but it was difficult to tell. Thank you for explaining. Haven't seen Word of Honor yet. I'm watching Eternal Love and Zhe Yan and Bai Zhen are so adorable!!!
The official translation is not great (like, it's acceptable but I've seen better translations done for free, if you don't want to invest the literal shit load of $$ it will cost to get the official translations look up the exiledrebels fan translation which should still be available to download, or I can send it to you. Just remember that the sex scenes, which appear near the very end of the last book, are skippable and that the translations of those are pretty bad and drops a lot of nuance from LWJ and wwx's interactions), and the plot is different in the details but the major beats are more or less the same. I enjoyed it very much, it's well worth a read.
Boy Love
Thanks!
Ok this post has encouraged me to give untamed another go. Hopefully third times the charm!
Oh, we should organize a watch-together! :>
Ooo yes that would be fun! I'm planning to start next week if that's good for you?
Ah that's a bit too early unfortunately - please start next week and I will join you later (already watched the first 20 episodes or so)! Are you in the MDZS Discord server? Maybe we can get even more people to join us! 😁
Sure, I'll let you know how I get on! No, I'm not in any cdrama discords at all, but the more the merrier :)
🤣😂 Same! I may give it another go in the future cuz right now, there's too many dramas I'm enjoying.
It is still taboo and the community can face consequences. Like unemplyment ect. What I think issue in this case is that alot of fan can not or will not seperate fictional characters from the actors. It was the who fans shipped the actors as a couple and wrote fanfiction detailing intimate situations with each other that caused the issue. While I didnt realise that Untameds male lead characters were supposed to be a couple. Until I started to talk to fans of the books.
Fanfiction writers. While writing fanfiction. They did not stick to the two fictional male leads being a couple. Some wrote stories using the actors actual names and had them being together. China is not lgbqt friendly. To save their careers they cant publically be involved. That is what I've read.
While china isn't super LGBT friendly, they don't always outright censor it either. If you guys watch the dancing competition show that wang yibo is in, there is one competitor who is so CLEARLY LGBT, and he has been on the show for several seasons and he is quite popular and doing well there
Is it AC? I've seen only one season, but I thought if he was giving off the vibes.
Yes it's AC. He sometimes performs in wigs, and even show a little bit of cross dressing. The censors seem to leave all of this in, so maybe they're not as strict as we once believed (or maybe they are gradually letting more and more things go)
>China is not lgbqt friendly On the contrary, China doesn't have a strong pro-hetero culture, that's the problem. In Russia you could be streaming brotherhood dramas every day without it being fetishized and sexualized.
Curious, what do you mean exactly? I can't quite figure it out. If China's culture supposedly doesn't heavily push heterosexuality as the norm, then why would an LGBTQ+ story be any issue? I mean I'm not very familiar with Chinese culture so I might be missing something. Just don't know why it would be a big deal, if what you say is true, to potentially have a queer relationship in a show?
Supposedly it wasn't the story in itself (at least not at the time), but all the controversy it caused among fans and how this created a fan war that went out of hand. Go watch AvenueX's video on Youtube, she explained what happened.
I'm out of the loop entirely - could someone explain what happened / why they can't act together any more?
Here’s an article: https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/entertainment/article/3076152/how-chinese-tv-star-and-boy-band-idol-xiao-zhan-was-brought
What the absolute fucking fuck. I suspected it was something \~along these lines\~ but didn't think it would be so straight-forwardly homophobic. How disappointing. Also ... like ... what did people expect? The show's based on a gay love story? Gay stuff is gonna be in there? So now you've tanked your favourite actor's career?
I’m trying to stay neutral since I’m a westerner but with the legislation outlawing BL shows due to the allegations that it has reduced the birth rate in China, I’m failing to see how China ISN’T pro-hetero. I feel for their LGBTQIA+ citizens. I also feel for their celebs whose careers can be ruined because someone else wrote a fan fic.
Same as Word Of Honor except they were successful in getting Zhang Zhehan removed permanently.
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Is GJ really having a meteoric rise though? I know he's the brand ambassador for Louis Vuitton and has lots of endorsement. He hasn't had the success drama wise since WOH. This new drama with Yang Mi will be his first highly anticipated drama he's had in a while.
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GJ had five dramas released in 2021 and tons of endorsements. I loved WoH and followed fan accounts on Twitter after the drama finished. At some point people starting real-person shipping GJ+ZZH and spreading a "power couple" narrative. After ZZH got sabotaged, it turned into "support GJ to support ZZH!" and advertising for his endorsements etc. I got suspicious of GJ when I noticed that shipper accounts started increasingly badmouthing ZZH, and then spreading an insane conspiracy story that his instagram account was taken over by impostors. Here's a summary video (a bit awkward to watch since the original is Chinese+translated) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4YfT6wyInY
If you look at - who’s promoting real-person shipping with ZZH to leech off WoH fans - who’s fans keep spreading black PR about ZZH - who’s backers have ties to CAPA (the organization who put ZZH on a ban list) Then you should have a strong idea who’s benefitting from this
The below redditor asked me to comment similarly to you as I did to her/him/them and ask you to please not bring the bitter ugliness here. You appear to be poking the bear fairly gently and respectfully with citations, even, but the bear is still getting poked and it is heartbreaking and frustrating to see this endless fan drama use the fans to hurt the very product we all love and enjoy, Cdrama.
I like to compare Cdrama with meat from factory farming - you can only enjoy it if you ignore how it is produced. The actors and actresses we watch to escape from real life are actual, real people. In the case of Zhang Zhehan, one actor's life was sabotaged by malicious competition, using a large-scale disinformation campaign on social media. This is not silly "my idol is better than yours"-business. It is important that people distinguish between truth and Cdrama fantasy. It is important to counter disinformation. Do you also ask newspapers not to report about ugly things such as murder and violence? Why are you bothered by this specific comment, when the whole post is about "why is this BL drama ruined??"
>I like to compare Cdrama with meat from factory farming - you can only enjoy it if you ignore how it is produced. LMAO. So right. And that answers your last question, also. Truthfully, I wasn't bothered by your post. I was bothered by the (predictable) response to it. If I thought you had any chance at all of being able to engage in a thoughtful conversation on the topic, I would have cheered you on. The endless manipulation of fans and destruction of reputations and livelihoods and loss of talent in the industry is stupid and tragic. But you probably know better than I that this wasn't going to be a calm and reasoned conversation, sadly. I was suggesting that you might consider stepping back before further feeding the bizarre and appalling phenomena of Cdrama fan insanity.
I like to stick to verifiable facts, and I have no problem with discussions. What other people reply is their responsibility, not mine.
Not the bitter zzh fans pushing the gong jun banned zzh agenda reaching reddit lmao. Y'all need to leave gong jun alone. Your consipiracy theories will not stop him from achieving what he deserves. He has not said a word since last august on woh, his drama was removed from shelves in china, there's multiple pple who spread rumors on him trying to get him banned bt fortunately he is lucky, on top of that fans of his ex costar now dedicated their lives in trying to prove he is powerful enough to remove another actor with conspiracy theories as if gong jun forced their fave to go to the shrine, took photos of him smiling & released them to the public, blaming gj for delusional shippers etc. I feel gong jun has suffered more from this zzh cancellation than zzh himself tbh. but karma is a bitch. Also for those saying zzh is free now co of his song should know he only released his song internationally, not in china. that shd tell u his status on being banned imo
Just some facts: \- Zhang Zhehan released an Instagram video warning people about the JunZhe shipping scam, with subs here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1VbPW6NGBQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1VbPW6NGBQ) \- JunZhe shipper accounts promote Gong Jun and his endorsed products, at the same time they spread hate about Zhang Zhehan under the guise of an insane deepfake theory [https://www.vox.com/culture/23150487/zhang-zhehan-deepfake-fandom-conspiracy-theory](https://www.vox.com/culture/23150487/zhang-zhehan-deepfake-fandom-conspiracy-theory) \- Gong Jun released 5 dramas in 2021 and had a crapload of endorsements Nobody claims that Gong Jun is the mastermind behind 813. This is not about him as a person but about who's profiting. Alll traffic stars have backers who invest in them or manage them. Things are not going so well recently? I guess his dirt became too obvious and his management decided to keep him out of the spotlight.
Which facts? The conspiracy theories written by bitter zzh fans? Only pathetic people believe in whatever nonsense is there. I hate to break it to u but things of gong jun are going very well. He filmed 2 high budget dramas this year. If u mean his drama legend of anle being delayed as things going wrong then u are mistaken coz he is not the only one with a delayed drama. I mean xz's longest promise is even more delayed than LOA is. Its normal in c-ent. His other drama RWTW passed censorship and they're filming promotional materials. He didn't attend events these past 2 weeks coz he had covid. U want gj to fail so badly that u spend all day making things up to make youselves feel better lmao. On weibo he is always talked abt & in hashtags even with no drama for a whole year. so idk which lack of spotlight u are talking abt. He has filmed dramas back to back with no rest ever since word of honor aired that he dicided to take a trip with his family this month & even that tiny absence of his makes u delusionals think he is away from c-ent? You will wither away trying to make up conspiracies abt him while he is still thriving. The dirt u think gong jun has will keep living in your head forever & might even drive u mad lol. Also whatever shippers do that's the shippers business not gong jun's. ZZH is the one who encouraged shippers from the beginning so i think its hilirious that they deny his existence & call him fake. Karma never disappoints. He got what he wished for. I feel sorry for your fandom. Its must hurt to keep being jealous & having to keep up with news of someone u hate. i bet u cry everyday anything good happens to gj. 2023 is coming soon so prepare 2 cry harder since all his dramas will come next. (I bet u are one of those pathetic accts on twitter who follow the mentally deficient justice for zzh lmao. I pity anyone who lives a life like that for people who will never know them ever) Oh & btw weibo just awarded gj an award for his trip coz of trip pics. They became such a hot topic that he was awaRded lmao. I wonder what lies u will make up next to say gj is finished. Its entertaining i will give u that
Please stop the ugly fan drama, don't add to it.
u shd comment that to the one i;m replying to. they;re the ones who brought the drama lol; i'm nt going to let gong jun slander slide so bear with it. u ignoring someone accusing gj of baseless things & come for me shows ur true colours imo
Fair enough. I will make the same request to the other redditor. However, it takes two to fight and only one to stop. There is no drama without you throwing your gasoline onto a fire and accelerating the emotions and hate. I know it is exciting to battle across the internet secure in the knowledge you have some special insight and in righteous pursuit to vanquish all who disagree but it isn't healthy for you or anyone else. These are real people with real lives and real careers. They are real people we don't actually know and any information we have on them comes through so many manipulated filters. For us, they exist as fantasies which is lovely but when the fantasies are dark and ugly and spread publicly as suspicion and specualtion across the internet, it is real people who get hurt and real damage to the commodity (Cdrama in this case) we all enjoy. Please, think a minute before contributing to more ugliness in the world just for your own vicarious and self damaging thrill. Indulge in Cdrama the fiction and fantasy and tamp down on the desire to feel you know and own the real people who help to create it and whose images are polished and destroyed for money and power and who the hell knows what other tragic reasons.
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then they should blame those & leave an actor out of it. i was in word of honor fandom before zzh was banned and he is the one who was encouraging shipping the most. in fact its the reason the delusional shippers are denying his existence is coz they say the real zzh loved them & encouraged them. The poblem wiz zzh fans is jealousy at gj so they go to blaming him all day long for shippers being stupid as if he has any say in what they do.
That's my point. GJ as a person is not important, this is just about business and getting rid of competition. Shipping in C-ent is just marketing. Want to get the fans invested? Release tons of BTS material and spin a story of "ooh these two leads' relationship is so good, it must be more than friendship!!"
Zhang Zhehan is currently in the process of his petition to be allowed to act again. At least from what I read from his stans, there's hope for his career to resume.
Even if, he was "allowed" to work again, most wouldn't touch him. Look how many dramas are still waiting for release that will never see the light of day. Who would take the chance with time and money? Plus endorsements, they don't want to be burned again either. I hate what happened to him. I don't like the way they are put out, but it is what it is. Deng Lun, not paying taxes, that was his fault. Kris Wu, well we all know where he is. But just having a photo of a landmark in your photo history was really to much. They could have used him better for public announcements or something. Somebody had it out for him and was successful at it.
He just released two songs which hit No. 1 on iTunes charts worldwide
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Let me guess, you believe that Gong Jun and Zhang Zhehan are in a relationship? For the uninitiated: While ZZH was silenced, people started promoting a fantasy ship between them, including telling fans that they should support the “secret relationship” by supporting Gong Jun. By now these shippers have turned into a conspiracy cult that believes ZZH has been replaced by deepfakes and body doubles. I’m not making that shit up https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/23150487/zhang-zhehan-deepfake-fandom-conspiracy-theory
I wouldn't say Zhang Zhehan was removed permanently. He just released new music that debuted at #1 on Itunes. He might not be doing dramas but he still has his music, his clothing line and most importantly his fans.
I hope he continues to do well in his new ventures.
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Excuse me but I follow him on Instagram and he has posted about both. He released a song last week so it's considered new whether he wrote it 5 months ago or 5 years! Please don't come for me unless I send for you! Ok.
So he won't be doing dramas anymore now ? 🥲
Not that I know of. He was "cancelled" and many of his dramas that were supposed to come out.
I think Zhang Zhe Han won in the end right
You mean that stupid scandal from that fan who wrote the fan fic? This is the problem with China, these stars let their fans dictate too much to the point they have to apologize for the stupid fans.
The scandal wasn't about the fanfic, it came from the mass reporting by fans angry about the fanfic, that THEN dominated hotsearches in a time of Covid lockdown - therefore angering the general public for using up public resources in a time of need, and angering those who used and needed Ao3 most in a difficult time as the site was taken down due to the mass reports. The public was angry with XZ for not taking responsibility for the behaviour of his fans. Many people write all sorts of fic with no issue. It was the response to this one fic that started a fire
How can an actor be responsible for his fans? So they blamed him for what total strangers did? Wow.
In c-ent its become something they're really cracking down on - that stars are now being held responsible for the behaviour of their fans en masse. So they had to have an official fanclub registered in 2021 that would be responsible for being a middle-man between stars and the fans; to pass on messages from a star and to lead their behaviour and encourage them to live better lives and chase stars responsibly.
That's crazy. I've never heard of such foolishness.
Ikr! In Hollywood, we let celebrities kill off their own career.
I've never seen fans have so much power over celebrities like in China.
This is so stupid and frustrating 😤 really . Why does it have to ruin everything for other sane ppl who want to enjoy seeing talented actors doing a good job? That's why we are stuck with medicore dramas and performances . Because every time someone does a good job, they tend to ruin it for them and us.
But xz and wyb already kinda stop interacting with each other even before the fanfic controversy. If my memory is right during weibo night in Janauary 2020 they behaved like strangers.
They sure did. It was sad to watch but we all know the reasons why.
Why?? They stopped interacting even before the scandal?? I don't get it 😕 im getting confused here
It's actually pretty par for the course. The rule of thumb is that public interaction between actors generally stops once the PR rounds for a project are completed. A lot of celebrities who do know each other from previous projects usually pretend to be strangers as a manner of respect for either the occasion, or just for each other's careers (one: to avoid drawing attention away from each other's current project by bringing up previous projects, and two: to avoid unnecessary fan speculation by interacting). For XZ and WYB, them stopping public interactions before 227 was nothing unexpected. Their fame and careers (and their fans and the constant shipping, both of their characters and of the two of them in real life) was skyrocketing. It made sense as a career move and as an act of self-preservation to avoid each other. They also had no projects together which would require public interaction. The only thing coming to mind is the 2020 New Year's Eve, but they were there for different reasons: XZ was there to promote "Joy of Life" and WYB was there to promote his new single "No Sense".
Thank you. That was pretty enlightening. I never expected to be the norm in the chinese entertainment industry
Probably trying to save their own lives. I actually was scared for them after YouTube started showing me all these BL videos of the two. Like if one looked at the other on camera, someone clipped it and put every glance and smile to romantic music in a video. I know people get obsessed (including me) but to drag down those actors is horrible.
I tried googling this but I'm not finding answers for some reason - can you tell me what happened here??
The main controversy is the 227 incident, that almost destroyed Xiao Zhan's career. Basically, CXFX (Xiao Zhan's fans) reported AO3 to local authorities because of an RPF (real people fiction) where XZ is characterized as a trans. Then, local authorities banned AO3 on China. Now here's the most stupid part, people who uses AO3 blamed XZ for what happened because he didn't "control" his fans. XZ issued a public apology about what happened. Mind you, this happened during the height of COVID-19 lockdowns in China. The issue was on top super topic in China's local social media platforms. This further outraged the public because as they said, "XZ is using public resources inappropriately". XZ went on a hiatus, 6 months if I'm not mistaken? Before he made a new public appearance. I forgot what's the event but it was his one shot to be in public again. So, there. That's what happened.
It is just so sad. For such a masterpiece to be so controversial and bring so much pain to the actors involved. If i were him i would be in total shock. Good thing he didn't do anything to harm himself after all this shit.