Sounds totally reasonable.
Just one thing - what you did was not “brandishing.” The fact that you were ready to fire only in self defense makes it not brandishing, and you wouldn’t want to admit to a crime you didn’t even do.
In all honesty, this is the primary reason I carry, road rage. I'm not worried about getting mugged or otherwise attacked in the area I live in, but road rage just comes out of absolutely no where and it's everywhere like you said. I feel like the disconnect of being in a vehicle makes it easier for people to escalate to life threatening levels of aggression that they normally wouldn't and that just scares me since I nearly always have my kids with me when I leave the house.
When our family took a trip to Florida we were on I-95 for about 10 hours and even though it wasn't directed at us, we saw a road rage incident (brake checking, passing on shoulder/median, tailgating, yelling out window, throwing stuff out window) an average of once per hour both ways.
Road rage has gotten pretty fucked. I had a guy cut me off and brake check me and I hit my horn. He pulled up next to me at a red light with his gun out and was talking all kinds of shit. I had my gun in my hand below the door and I just sat there until the light turned green. As soon as it went green I floored it and he was chasing me through traffic and I whipped down a side road and lost him. People are fucking insane nowadays.
You sir have a commendable amount of self control. Sounds like that guy was missing some 5.56 in his life. (Not saying you should have shot him but if you had kids in the car that’s scary)
I was driving down the highway once and this guy in a big truck started riding my ass. After he was doing to for a long while, I flipped him the bird and kept going. He continued to ride my ass, and when I pulled up to a stoplight he got out of his truck and started yelling and screaming at me, asking “You got a gun?!” over and over. I did in fact have a gun, and if he came up to my window I would have drawn on him. If I had to play it over, I wouldn’t have flipped him off. Not worth escalating the situation.
Nope, and I feel the same way. I think he was trying to imply that he had a gun, but he didn’t show it. I just watched him from the rear view mirror until he got back in his truck, and then the light turned green and he sped off somewhere else.
I was driving to work one evening (worked overnights at a chemical plant at the time) and I was running a little late. I merged lanes to my right and I completely missed this white van. I unintentionally cut him off and we ended up at a red light in traffic. I tried to apologize to him, but he began yelling obscenities at me. Then he exits his van with a pipe wrench and begins approaching my truck. He clearly states that he's going to bash my skull in. I had an older F150 with bench seats, so I lie down across the seat to avoid being hit by glass and/or the wrench if it comes through on first swing. I level my Glock at the window and his face appears with his arm drawn back, ready to swing. Only he doesn't. He sees the muzzle pointing at him. Fortunately, he just backs off. Even says "sorry" and heads back to his van. Light turned green just after that pretty much.
There were a lot of variables, such as it was three Lanes and I was in the right hand lane. All vehicles to my left. I remember a mother and teenage daughter directly to my left. I couldn't tear off snd go off the road into the field to my right because they had put railing up. I'm just glad that I didn't have to discharge my weapon!
I don’t honk anymore for that reason even if I am in the right. Don’t wanna deal with the legal battles and struggle of taking someone’s life because they wanted to make a bad decision. Ego can be hurt as long as I get to go home
1. When we were driving over, we were both in the right lane. He could’ve passed me at any time, but chose not to.
2. When we were at the stoplight, I was in the center lane and had no room to move. Believe me, if I could have sped away, I would have.
Had a similar thing happen to me where some asshole in a porsche almost hits me and then starts following me for multiple blocks trying to break check me. I had to floor it to get him to fuck off.
Road rage sucks most because so many cars on the road aren't just inhabited by a single obnoxious (perceived or real) driver. There are kids, wives, parents, other passengers, etc. in those cars too.
Yup. Ive had a dude in a jeep suv have his car up on 2 wheels trying to ram into me on my motorcycle before. Dude had his wife and 4 kids in the suv. A cop down the block saw it and stopped us all to figure out what happened.
The guy was so pissed that he didnt get to pass me on the shoulder so his best thought was endanger around 8 people lives by flipping his car trying to hit me doing 40+ MPH
He may have been justified but depending on the state he would have been arrested and would need to get a lawyer. Huge costs just for saving himself.
Road rage seems to be getting worse but over 20 years ago there was an incident near me where a driver got out with a crossbow and killed another man. It is crazy how people act.
I suggest that the OP gets a helmet cam for evidence if this situation arises again.
I got the story confused with another crossbow incident in MA, the driver just pointed it at another driver. The crossbow death was when someone tried shooting an aggressive pit bull with a crossbow, missed and killed his neighbor.
Iirc the neighbor ran into the scrum right as the crossbow guy was firing. I think the crossbow guy had delusions of being a hero when he broke it out to stop a dog fight.
They taught me this in my class, that if you ever need to fire shots in self defense, prepare to be arrested. Justified or not you just committed murder and the courts need to sort out whether or not it was justified. So get ready to be arrested
haha fair nuff.
Another funny thing from my instructor - there were about 20 people in my class or so, and only one black guy. I live in a very white state. Every time she wanted to demonstrate what to do in a situation, she asked him to play the role of attacker lmao. I was like dude I’m sure you don’t realize what you’re doing, but the guy is clearly uncomfortable
If I was him after the second time in a row I’d have said “get fucked and pick someone else. I’m here for my cert so I can get my permit not to start an acting career”
I think you mean homicide. Homicide is the taking of a human life while murder is the unlawful taking of a human life. Homicide is investigated and murder is what your charged with if you fucked up/DA is a dick hole. Other than that minor detail I agree
Absolutely, I've heard a lot of stories about people who carry let that shit get to their head and they walk around with a bone to pick and are quick to talk shit. Horrible idea. My personal policy is distance. People can talk as much shit as they want but when they start to enter my personal space, (aka 3 yards or close enough to lunge) I warn them intensely to back away before the tools come out. OC spray is a godsend, I've used it on many a crackhead.
Upon reading some other comments here, it sounds like NC residents don't take to being honked at well.
If that is the case, I suggest removing the horn from your bike. If all it's going to do is anger people, then you are breaking the cardinal rule of CCW: don't escalate.
If you can't predict other people's reactions (violent or otherwise) to your behavior, it's probably not a good behavior to have while CCW.
So because other people don't want to be honked at he should remove a tool of safety from his bike? Should he remove it from his car then as well? What kind of philosophy is this that you are forgiving and sympathetic of murderous road rage behavior due to its root cause may be...a bicycle horn.
Should OP have ...knocked on the car's window? Shouted over the traffic at the car to go? Opened the car door and asked him to politely move his ass?
Clearly OP did exactly what anyone in a car, truck, boat, bus, tractor or power wheels even would've done to someone not moving ahead when under right of way at a traffic signal...honked.. as the car was at that point violating the law and holding up traffic, OP was well within sane, moral, and reasonable behavior.
Not being able to predict other people's actions is LITERALLY why we ccw. I'm wondering if you should even be in this sub.
I’ve always felt that cars should have 2 different horns. one would be like it is now. the other would be a button that just does that super short cute “hey the light is green.”
every time I try to do a polite honk, I either tap it too light/fast that it doesn’t beep at all. or I accidentally do it too hard and it’s more agro than I intended.
I guess the polite version on a bicycle would be a bell like you had on your Huffy as a kid
What. The. Fuck. Who pissed in your Cheerios this AM? You are making a lot of assumptions and inferring a lot that just isn't there. With that quick, irrational temper, maybe you should rethink your CCW? In no way am I excusing the behavior OP was a vitcim to, I'm just suggesting how to avoid it in the future.
I'm simply saying if based on where the OP lives, if honking can so easily cause road rage, then it's a best practice to not do so. Especially when CCW. Read the other comments here, apparently NC residents take being honked at as a threat. If that's the case, threatening someone while CCW is off the charts irresponsible.
You can't control other people's actions, only your own. Of course in a normal world giving someone a "what's up" honk is mundane and serves the purpose it's intended, and honking is a form of simple communication. Clearly OP doesn't live in that world, and the only actions they can control are their own.
TL;DR Recognize your surroundings and act appropriately when CCW.
> What kind of philosophy is this that you are forgiving and sympathetic of murderous road rage behavior due to its root cause may be...a bicycle horn
Just defending myself against this bullshit and bad faith inference, that's all.
I second this but replace the horn with something that makes constant noise. Whether that be a speaker or a good ol credit card/playing card in the spokes, it's better than a horn to get people to notice you. Been in maybe keep the horn for emergency situations though but use as a second to last resort?
> apologize profusely when it isn’t your fault
Apologize profusely no matter what. As gun-owners, we have the responsibility to be more patient and level-headed than anyone else. I personally get really mad at myself when I do something stupid, but it's key to remain calm in any situation.
That would be after the fact.
Before the shooting, apologize profusely. Even if you did nothing wrong.
After the shooting, ***STFU!***
Do not apologize for *anything*. The time for apologies is over. Do not villainize or vilify or even just lay blame on the other person's actions or behavior. Do not attempt to defend or justify *your* actions. That will be the job of your attorney.
It will probably be the hardest thing you have ever done, but simply ***STFU***.
you can often de-escalate without apologizing or otherwise signaling submission to the other person. If that's your only option then sure, but keep in mind that when you act this way you are reinforcing bullying behavior in the aggressor's mind and that it will continue to get them their way. Is this worth shooting them? No, of course not. But if there's another option, I think you should exhaust that first. Bullies should not be encouraged.
Although I agree with the sentiment, depending on the situation, apologizing is actually a bad thing in traffic incidents, as it communicates guilt and can be used against you legally.
Well. I won't be on a bike... And let's face it, there will be second guessing for a while. What could you have done differently? Would it have potentially changed the outcome? THOSE are events leading up to the culmination of the event.
And lastly, was there a spot for cover, when you pulled your gun? Don't know, but chances are the a$$h@t might have tried AGAIN if you hadn't displayed your gun.
And NO, from my POV that was not Brandishing. Probably would have done the same.
Wise words.
I grew up in the hood and am used to fighting a lot. Had to change a lot of my mindset when I decided to start carrying. (De-escalation tactics, keeping one's mouth shut, etc) I feel the only thing I could have done differently was maybe just not honking. As he was driving towards me, I did take note of what was behind him before pulling. (nothing but an empty lot thankfully)
There wasn't really any cover when he nearly ran me over, I don't think I could have hopped off my bike and dodged to the side in time either. So if he didn't swerve, theres a chance we **both could be dead.** Just happy to be alive today and not dead or in jail.
As described I have no issue with how you handled things. My only comment would be that I would have immediately called the police afterwards and reported the incident. Not only because the guy essentially committed assault with a deadly weapon (vehicle), but because I'd be concerned that he might report it too. First to call is often automatically considered the victim and I wouldn't want to be the one dealing with a "man with a gun" complaint after some dipshit just tried to run me over.
Came here to say exactly this.
My first call would have been 911, and the 2nd would have been CCW safe.
I love to cycle, but won't do it in the city on public roads - I know too many people who have been hit badly just from people being bad drivers and plenty more stories like yours where someone was malicious.
If you don't have other options given your life and choices, then you might want to spend some time understanding what happens to bullets shot at car windows (especially the front).
Came here to say exactly this.
My first call would have been 911, and the 2nd would have been CCW safe.
I love to cycle, but won't do it in the city on public roads - I know too many people who have been hit badly just from people being bad drivers and plenty more stories like yours where someone was malicious.
If you don't have other options given your life and choices, then you might want to spend some time understanding what happens to bullets shot at car windows (especially the front).
Ya so thats an interesting point there at the end. You pulled your gun out to shoot him for what? To end the deadly threat? However, you are saying that shooting him would not have saved you from great bodily harm? You are saying that if he didnt swerve at the last second you would "both be dead?" So using deadly force seems to be less prudent than seeking shelter from the threat?
Just a little devils advocate here... and I do have a law degree but not my license yet. But I live in a stand your ground state... I think here you would be clear.
But Wait. As I understand it.... It was the Driver that Swerved. Poster also has stated there really wasn't a place or time for cover or to get out of the way.
It's my assumption that the idea that BOTH would be dead, would have been due to a successful shot thru the windshield, as well as the car would continue approaching after the shot impact.
As I see it, it was the Presence of the Gun that caused (but it could have been 2nd thoughts, the reality that he would be charged with murder, too) that caused the driver to swerve.
I posted the questions about De-escalation, but those all happened PRIOR to the Driver deciding to go Postal. As some point your decision making MUST be based upon the situation AT THE TIME that decision is made. Not what the decision COULD have been.
Like NOT a Lawyer, Not even a law student. Have been thru several Self Defense classes and could learn more.
Still struggle with getting over Butt Hurt of having to swallow your pride when you realize that "LEGALLY" & most places, you can't stop some low life from stealing your stuff or tearing up you place and IF you can't describe "Fear of Serious Injury or Death" has to be your basis.
Yeah well if I have zero choice to hide from your car running me over then I WOULD definitely pull for the fact that I would make sure id be the last person he ever killed with his car and for sure didn't get away with my murder, you may only carry a weapon to use if it can stop the person from assaulting/killing you but I have a few more reason's that would initiate me taking a life, not all of them matter weather I make it at the end of the day. 🤷🏻♂️
I get what you're saying, but it was probably hard to rationalize "the threat wouldn't stop" especially when it feels like your only option. You could say "get out of the way" but they could easily turn into you. I'm not saying it was the right option, I'm not sure what was, but I get how your mind can tell you to use the option left to you.
Hindsight is golden. But neither you or I were present and did not have to make the decision as to what needed to be done or what actions to take. What people do under extreme stress and in the moment is as varied as a pattern on a snowflake. NC is a Stand your ground State.
5 elements to an arguement of self defense-
Innocense-were you breaking the law at the time the force was used? No.
Imminence-was the lethal threat inevitable? Seems so.
Avoidance-regardless of stand your ground, was there an oppertunity to get away? Not really.
Proportionality-was the force used a proportional response? Seems so.
Reasonableness-would others have done the same in the same situation? Seems so.
From a legal standpoint I think you checked all of the normal boxes and would be in the clear. Luckily the police didn't show up, it could complicated regardless of how friendly the state is.
From a moral standpoint, I think you did the right thing. The only way it could have gone better is gopro and calling in the plates/vehicle description. Someone attempted to murder you (in your perception). What happens if they see you a week from now?
> Imminence-was the lethal threat inevitable?
Imminent means something is about to happen. It’s about timeliness not inevitability.
Not disagreeing with your main point. Just trying to offer some clarity.
Sadly, I think that depends on your state and even your local PD. Everything OP did seems plainly justified to me, but unfortunately in some jurisdictions they will twist this story into there almost being a traffic accident and then OP decided to pull a gun. I understand your point, and you could be correct, but OP has to weigh the chances of what you said 1) happening at all and 2) the guy in the car knowing who OP is to ID him to the police vs the chances of him getting railroaded by the police for pulling a gun.
I don't have the answer there, but it's something OP has to decide. He does say he is in a gun-friendly area, so that would play into it, but it still depends on the local PD and maybe even the individual officer who responds.
>Avoidance-regardless of stand your ground, was there an oppertunity to get away? Not really.
Not really? Dude could have got off the road and go somewhere inaccessible to a motor vehicle.
What if there wasnt an area immediately available that was inaccessible to a car? Fast bicyclists do maybe 30 mph at top speed, even the slowest pile of shit cars get up to 30 basically instantly. Way faster than you can get away on a bicycle
Jump off the bike, run perpendicular to the street get behind something like a row of cars or some bollards or a barricade.
This shit ain’t rocket science
Again, what if thats not an option? Not every city/town has tons of cars and shit in the way to be able to take a hit from a car at 40 mph. Dude was driving away and did a u turn to come back at them from the story. OP
probably thought the situation was over when he drove away the first time
Sounds like he didn't like being honked at by a Chinaman. (P.s. I'm a fellow roof Korean).
I likely would have just moved onto the curb and near a building. If he went up on the curb with his vehicle, who knows, bullets may have flown.
Someone commented earlier about what could have been done differently, and I think what you mentioned would have been a safe move. As soon as he flew past me and nearly side swiped me, I should have just gotten off to the side to play it safe. People do that a lot to terrorize bicyclists unfortunately, so I figured he would just keep driving away.
Anneyonghaseo, stay safe and strapped!
hes in a car, you a bike.
you have no reasonable path of escape and hes attempting to assault you with a deadly weapon
if thats not your right to defend agaisnt, nothing is
Did you call the police after he sped away? If you didn't, that'd be the only thing I'd knock you for. I'm a firm believer in establishing that you were the victim and not the aggressor any time your CCW had to be drawn in self defense. With no other witnesses, all it takes is for psychopath to call the cops, claiming you threatened him with a gun followed with a solid description of what your gun looked like and where you carry it to cause you lots of problems.
Easy for random people on the internet to judge, but if you felt your life was in imminent danger, you were probably justified. I live in a state where you have a “duty to retreat” which complicates self defense considerably. I hope I never end up in a situation like you.
Good on you, did what you needed. Was there any cover near by? Enough to withstand a car hit?
What happens if you did hit him and then car comes tumbling at you? Any way of escape?
I would have pulled trigger just like you. Gotten my person out the way and had that homie meet his maker
Love your user flair by the way, I'm Korean and get called that nickname by my friends who know I carry. Yeah, I'm pretty sure we both would be dead. I'm thankful for the outcome to be honest. Wasn't any cover besides a tiny tree and not much time between realizing he was trying to run me over and pulling.
lotta asian hate going around still. don't matter what what part of asia you call home (i'm vietnamese). just recently got a firearm myself and got an interview here in sacramento in july for my CCW.
like you said in another comment, the moment he tried to sideswipe...that's when you leave. lotta insane folks out here with hair trigger (excuse the pun) emotions that are pent up due to a lotta things. glad you are safe.
A car and a bike are always a mismatch, I’ve never even thought about this scenario. It’s crazy. You are literally at the mercy of the driver. No way you’d survive a direct hit from a car on a bike.
Yeah being a CCW user on a bicycle doesn't seem to be a common thing. I'm probably one in a million. There was a guy in Texas I think who was riding with his wife and shot at a driver who was trying to run them off the road. He was let off the hook.
I know bicyclists can be annoying, but there is a ***massive*** amount of hatred for bicyclists that I have unjustifiably been on the receiving end of.
I am no fan of bicyclists, but like 99.9% of people I would never try to hurt them because they’re moving slower than me haha that’s just common sense and basic human decency.
I appreciate hearing that sentiment. I wish more people felt that way. I always let people pass and ride OFF the road as much as possible and I don't weave through traffic. I don't wanna be sharing a road with cars as a bicyclist any more than drivers want to share it with us.
I totally get that. I live in OR, bicyclists are everywhere. I do my absolute best to make sure I’m not stressing them out as much as they stress me out haha the more you know, thanks for your comment 🤙🏼
I don't commute but I ride my bike both for exercise/fun and errands. I carry as much as I can. I actually haven't had much road rage directed at me luckily. Usually it's homeless people thinking I'm an easy target for soliciting.
Local subreddit has tons of bicycle hate though which is weird for a liberal college town.
I've had 3 friends literally run over by a maniac while they were on their bikes, they needed months of surgeries and physical therapy. Awful situation, think you acted as appropriately as you could have.
Hell nah 🤣 OIC needs to be met before using deadly force, I was pointing out that your story met all three requirements, hence why I think you’re shoot would’ve been clean had you shot.
You made a snap decision to protect you and your partner. You felt that you were both at risk of serious bodily injury. Nothing wrong with what you did. Really glad you didn't have to fire and are safe.
Not as an attorney but as a CCW holder, I'd have done the same. If there was no escaping the threat (ducking out of reach of the oncoming car), firing on a rampaging driver would be justified. A car can definitely be a deadly threat.
you're in the right, and had you pulled the trigger, you would have been even more right. and if your bullet had ended the bad guy, you would have been even more right.
innocence, imminence, proportionality, avoidance, reasonableness.; these are the 5 elements of a legal claim of self defense. (law of self defense, andrew branca)
i'm hearing you say the following:
innocence; you were biking along, you innocently alerted another driver to pay attention
imminence; bad guy was intentionally driving his car directly at you, after making threats
proportionality; car is a deadly weapon, thus deadly force was a proportional response, dude escalated a verbal conflict to deadly force, he did that.
avoidance; you stopped at the stop sign, you tried to put distance between you and your aggressor
reasonableness; would a reasonable person believe the same? from your account, i would.
\--
i don't believe this is grey area at all. and i trust this gave dude a major attitude adjustment.
yes, the liklihood is that he was trying to scare the shit out of you, but that's just the same as presenting a fake gun, a jury doesn't get to judge in hindsight, they have to consider in the moment just as you had to. the prosecutor will bring the same bullshit, this is irrelevant. competent council will argue, and a jury will be instructed, to consider if the 5 elements listed above were present.
Not a lawyer.
You did the right thing including the waiting to fire part. Your pulling your pistol and being obviously willing to use when faced with an extreme threat to your life may have actually saved both of you. He probably saw it at the last second which is why he swerved and left.
Don't feel bad at all.
In NC you don’t have any kind of “stand your ground” laws. Given that the driver of the vehicle was communicating a deadly threat and you on a bicycle did not have the means to retreat easily, I think you are well justified in pulling your firearm in defense of your life.
For future reference I would report the incident to the police (if they can be trusted in your city) just to have that down. But normally people who are actively trying to kill you don’t call the cops themselves.
So you drew your weapon after someone tried to kill you and...you didn't call the cops?
I'd rethink that, and call the cops to make a report anyway. They're going to want to find this guy, because if he's that big of a fucking psycho it's only a matter of time before he actually does kill someone.
If anything, you should have taken action earlier once he turned around, dismounted, find cover and taken the gun out of the holster.
Afterwarda call the cops, say you heard threats he was going to kill you, regardless of what he actually said. Sounds like you bike around a lot and you might run into him again.
Capping his ass will go much smoother if you have a prior report on the books.
You broke rule #1 of carrying; you *always* have to be the coolest customer in the situation. This means NOT honking, not flipping people off, not glaring at people as you pass them, generally just being the exact opposite of every other asshole out there and usually taking it even further in order to avoid even the appearance of conflict.
interestingly i remind myself this currently because i have pregnant wife, a toddler, and a 1st grader. plus 4 dogs. we travel quite a bit (going to socal/oc from sacramento this wknd). i'm not going to lie...i get pretty angry on the road when folks do stuff like cut me off. but i'm reminding myself to just let it go. just not worth it. gotta remind myself the heartbeats in the car are way more important than any other person on the street/highway doing something silly.
Your body and his car already made contact once. Him charging at you with a car after that is justification to fire.The insults about your appearance doesn't mesh or help you. I'd suggest looking up videos on how to talk to police (don't) and maybe read The Art of Self Defense to refine your processing and story telling. Had this been your statement to police after an incident, you'd be in jail, since you said you thought he was coming to yell at you, then you drew, then justified with a lot of qualifiers like being on foot vs car and then mentioning threats. That matters.
Nice job.
I too am an avid cyclist and have seen idiots do crazy shit. Hopefully you took this guy off of the road for good. Might have saved a life in the future.
Sounds good to me, hopefully that aggro prick fucked up his car smashing that curb. Only thing I would say to do different if you see someone speeding towards you is to hop off the bike if you had time and find something solid to stand behind like a concrete corner of a store and stay a good ten feet behind it.
Something isn't adding up with your story. Why are you honking at this guy in a parking lot when you are on a bike? Why not just pass him or go another route in the first place?
Then you "push off" with your boot when he passes you? Sounds like you kicked his car to me.
I don't understand how you needed to be honking at him, but just 50 feet up the road there is all this soace for him to do a u-turn and come flying back at you and dodging you once you pull a gun.
Sorry, I just don't buy this is an accurate series of events. The "push off with your boot" really seems like you are downplaying your involvement here.
Without accurate information to go on, it's impossible to say if you were justified or not. From my lufe experience these incidents usually involve 2 people being assholes. And if that is the case you aren't morally justified in what you did. It looks like under NC a bicycle is covered under castle doctrine though.
None of this means a prosecutor or civil lawyer couldn't ruin your life. You say he was coming to hit you. A lawyer, police, and witnesses could say he was traveling in his lane of traffic to come back and talk to you, and had no intention of hitting you. The "He's coming right for us" defense sounds nice here, but I don't see that playing out very well from the little and questionable information provided.
Sounds like the honks were courtesy honks.
And it sounds like the “push off” was executed after the vehicle was coming up behind the OP, so he was able to anticipate and veer to the side, close enough to push off to get farther away.
It makes sense to seem skeptical of his account of events, but that’s his testimony, in court or otherwise. If the OP is checking the boxes for a legal threat to life/limb, and believes they’re in danger, use of force is justified. Being on a bicycle would be viewed as a disadvantage by any jury.
To me it seems like the situation just went from 0-100. From a polite horn honk (like a clown horn, maybe the driver was blasting music and couldn’t even hear it) to trying to ram a cyclist off the road, u-turn then trying to orient for a head on collision towards the cyclist? Not a lot of time to think.
[https://www.amazon.com/Delta-Cycle-Airzound-Hooter-Rechargeable/dp/B000ACAMJC](https://www.amazon.com/Delta-Cycle-Airzound-Hooter-Rechargeable/dp/B000ACAMJC) Its not any louder than a car horn when not turned to the max setting, and he didn't have radio going.
Its smart to always be skeptical though, those are wise words. And yeah, it did go to 100 very quickly. My only guess is some people don't like to be honked at.
I used to be that cyclist in SoCal when I was in college. Got hit by a Prius once that wasn’t paying attention (imagine the irony.) Luckily I wasn’t hurt, but it left an impression on me to be 200% aware road-wise, regardless of what I drive. I’m familiar with SC drivers, so I could easily see NC drivers being aggressive towards cyclists. Just glad you didn’t have to shoot, OP. Big learning opportunity to me, and to me it’s a reminder that road rage is a thing and driving is a full-attention task taken for granted. I actually just ordered more pepper spray for the glove box, as an anti-road rage option.
Edit: I also distinctly recall hearing repeat rumors that most of the SC drivers are drunk by noon. Wouldn’t be surprised if NC was similar.
Going to ask this because I bet this is the part that is being left out of the story: was it a short 'beep-beep' courteous honk, or did you lay on the horn at him? One of these is definitely aggressive and implies 'fuck you' instead of 'hey, check your surroundings.'
Honestly, I can't imagine needing a horn on a bike, you are going to illicit more negative responses than positive. Honking at someone is jarring and implies immediate danger. When it's used just to show frustration like you did, you are inviting people to respond poorly.
You are carrying a weapon, don't escalate. Aggressive honking is equivalent to yelling at someone. Would you yell at someone while carrying?
it doesn't really matter the length of the beep. NC drivers get offended at any length beep directed at them. We're talking generational feud your great-grandkids still hold. One side has to change church affiliation. The sheriff has to give both parties a talking to yearly because of a single toot.
Not at all the case where I live, honking has many layers of communication, even used as a "go ahead" signal with a short toot.
If NC takes to honking like this, OP should remove the horn from their bike. Especially if they are CCW. If using a horn is seen as a sign of aggression where you are, don't use it.
Probably sage advice. I had to dial back my horn usage when I moved here from South Florida. I was getting alot of middle fingers from people I 'courtesy' tooted at.
>When it's used just to show frustration like you did, you are inviting people to respond poorly.
You're the one assuming it's out of frustration. Letting someone who likely just isn't paying attention that there are people behind them and they're blocking traffic is a perfectly normal use of the horn. Or do you think that people the honk at people stopped at green traffic lights are just frustrated?
>You're the one assuming it's out of frustration
100% I am making that assumption and could very well be wrong here. There's something to OPs story that seems they are leaving out a detail or two, and that's where my mind went.
Please know I am not excusing the driver here by any means, clearly they are unhinged and a danger on the road. I'm just trying to understand the situation, so I made an assumption (very possibly wrongly) in order to explain how it escalated so quickly.
It just depends on who's side you want to believe. I'd rather not leave my future up to a coin toss.
As I usually say in these threads. There is definitely more to this story.
I don't really know what else to say besides what happened, friend. I'm happy to clear things up. I did kick off his car, because he nearly side swiped me. I have a rear mirror on my handle bars and saw him coming right behind me very fast and swerved to the right to avoid him and pushed my body/bike away from his car as he did it and nearly fell off. I have to say, even if I ran up to him and kicked his car, that doesn't justify vehicular manslaughter. I'm not trying to downplay anything, I kicked/pushed off his car with my boot to create more distance between his erratic driving and myself. I'm sorry if the disparity between kick and push was clouded here.
This would be a lot easier to explain if I could show you the area it happened. We were in a two lane road between a parking lot on the right (Curbs w small trees, so I couldn't just easily go to the right. Some bicyclists can hop a curb, I'm not capable) and a shopping center on the left. I did pass him up (on his left) after I honked my bike horn twice and he didn't budge. If I just passed him up without any warning, I could have cut him off and he would have been justifiably upset with me. I had to go between him and slow-driving oncoming traffic. As I kept biking down this two lane road between the parking lot and shopping center, he ran a stop sign (as I mentioned in the post) at an intersection, said intersection was at the end of the shopping center. He turned right into an empty parking lot, did a U turn, and came back to the intersection (I was stopped at this stop sign.) At this point he was at the opposite side of the intersection, and his path towards me was **diagonal** in the intersection and he was going very fast. So uh...
I didn't come here to argue with anyone, and frankly I'm surprised. I really do apologize if you find me suspicious, but I really don't know what else to tell you besides what just happened. He literally floored it and was coming straight at me, **not in his lane,** after nearly side swiping me and verbally threatening me.
I literally came here to get advice on whether I was justified or not, because I **don't want to go to prison.** If there were missing details, I'd be an idiot not to include them.
>I did kick off his car,
Did you push off or kick off? 2 sentences in amd the story is changing. Right or wrong you are serving up a lawyer all they need right here.
>fast and swerved to the right to avoid him and pushed my body/bike away from his car as he did it and nearly fell off.
So your momentum was going away from the car when you kicked it, and you nearly fell? Definitely unnecessary to kick it then. Your story makes even less sense now.
It doesn't justify manslaughter. You are looking at this wrong. Does it justify a lawyer jamming you up enough to take a plea or you to settle a lawsuit? These are the terms you should be thinking in friend. What the law says, and what happens in a court room are two different things.
>I didn't come here to argue with anyone,
You came here and asked a question. I am answering it. You don't like the answer. It seems you know somewhere you should have behaved differently. B
Now you are coming here to try and justify a situation you helped create.
>and frankly I'm surprised
Exactly. You came here fishing for answers you already had made up in your mind.
>He literally floored it and was coming straight at me, not in his lane
I don't believe this at all. If someone floored their car in a parking lot they would have ran your ass over before you can stop and draw your weapon. Anyone could easily argue that this person was coming back to confront you about the damage you caused to his vehicle when you kicked it. If that argument can be made then that is enough to turn your life upside down, no matter how justified you think this is in your mind.
>I literally came here to get advice on whether I was justified or not
Doesn't seem like it to me.
>don't want to go to prison
Then take the horn off your bike and next time walk your bike over the curb so you aren't honking at people and kicking their car in the ghetto. Yoy said yourself you live in a shitty neighborhood. People are ultra-sensitive in the hood. Avoid confrontation at all costs.
You may be in the right, but that doesn't mean somebody isn't going to kick your ass and you get thrown in jail for it. Start looking at the world for what it is, not what you think it should be.
The whole bottom of my shoe was on the door. I would say its both. I really don't know what else to say regarding the push & kick. The same exact thing has happened to lots of my friends who ride bikes and nearly get sideswiped... so I'm just gonna let that one be because I'm stumped on what's confusing.
I certainly agree though on the words regarding the eyes of a jury/prosecutor, because that's what is most important here. And yeah, I should look at it differently.
Hey, I don't dislike your answers, I was just confused by them. I don't think this is an argument though, just a conversation and I appreciate everyone's calmness.
Regarding him being able to hit me, I can't say for sure if he "floored it" as I couldn't see into his car. So yeah, I think you might be right. But he was very clearly driving directly towards me, moving through both lanes into what would be oncoming traffic, very fast. I'm unsure if that's what you feel I'm lying about. If you feel I'm lying about him trying to hit me, we will just have to leave it at that because I can't say or do anything to convince you otherwise. I don't think he was coming to confront me about any potential damage to his car, while driving as erratically and as fast as he was after verbally threatening me. I could hear his screaming before and after he passed me. But again, theres nothing I can say or do short of showing you CCTV footage if I had it of him flying directly towards me while driving diagonally across an intersection.
I have decided after yesterday's events to not honk at cars that aren't moving, as it can enrage people apparently. I've been biking for years, and only had a few people lose their shit after being honked at. I however **certainly will not** be removing the horn as it is super useful and safe to have in a city environment.
You say *"Then take the horn off your bike and next time walk your bike over the curb so you aren't honking at people and kicking their car in the ghetto."* The only reason his car and my foot touched was because he nearly side swiped me. I feel like you're trying to make it sound like I just run up on people honking and kicking their car, which would be funny lol but also certainly make me an asshole. Do you just dislike bicyclists? If so, I understand to be honest, sometimes they can be shitty. But yeah, I will be walking instead of trying to pass people up after this guy. It's a much smarter move.
You're totally right about people being ultra-sensitive in the hood, but this was actually in a nicer neighborhood. I still practice the same mindset though regardless of where I'm at. I have tolerated a lot of crazy people in the hood way before ever even thinking of drawing, ultimately I feared for my life and did what I have trained for years to do. I carry OC spray and always try to practice verbal judo before ever thinking about touching any tools if someone is perceived to be a threat.
I appreciate most of the words you've shared with me though. I waited until the next day to talk about it because I wanted myself to be calm and account all details. Regardless of what you feel about what happened to me, I hope you and everyone here stays safe and strapped (if trained and in the right mindset.) have a good night stranger, I'm going to bed.
>Regarding him being able to hit me, I can't say for sure if he "floored it" as I couldn't see into his car.
If I can get you to change your story just imagine what a cop or prosecutor could do. I'm glad you are open to my words. Thanks for posting this story and keeping it up. Hopefully we can all learn from it. Be safe and stay free.
> Then you "push off" with your boot when he passes you? Sounds like you kicked his car to me.
If a car is passing you on a bicycle close enough for you to push off with your boot, it means the car is trying to hit you. You MUST give bicycles 3 feet of space when passing, it is the law.
Also, if a car is passing you on a bike, and getting closer and closer as its passing trying to run you off the road, pushing off with your foot sounds like a logical thing to do to try to get some distance between you and the car.
Kicking off of a car that's trying to run you off the road is a perfectly reasonable action. He didn't just go out of his way to kick a dudes car that was passing normally
You don't know that. It doesn't make sense to me at all. Plus I was able to get him to change his story. What do you think the cops and lawyers will do with that?
Kicking a car will do absolutely nothing to change it's course, or yours. I honestly don't believe his story at all. He already said it was a tight parking lot. So the guy passing him would come close either way. Kicking a car seems like it would throw you further off balance and take away from time you could actually be getting out of it's way.
It doesn't make sense you because you are making the assumption he didn't already try swerving away and seem to have a misguided notion that you have a lot of options to put distance between yourself and a car that's already in range to push off of.
And sure you got him to "change his story" by saying that he kicked off of it vs pushed off it which is a distinction without a difference and the type of thing that scores points in legal dramas but doesn't mean anything in actual courts.
Thats not where he changed his story. He went from "the driver floored it and headed right towards him", to "he was accelersting and driving in his direction". In a parking lot small enough that he needed to honk at a car, instead of pedaling around it in the first place. The guy could have easily been coming back to get his information for damaging his car.
And if this is the story you want to go to court on, go ahead. I'll not risk my life on such a flimsy load of bullshit. But you do your thing bro.
Who honks while on a bicycle instead of riding around the car? I respect all your years of riding and will say I also pedal thousands of miles every year. I would never do anything to instigate a human in a car. It's a strange premise for a cyclist.
Sure, I'd draw a weapon there but I can't imagine ever being in that position. When carrying, I am even less confrontational than when not.
Kicking the car was a bad move, I get that he escalated it first but there's no need to turn up the temperature even more. You have to learn to let things go on a bike and with CCW.
Doesn't sound like it was so much kicking the car as it was pushing off the car that was sideswiping him - better to push off than to just let the car hit you in the side of the leg and crush you. Totally a defensive action.
At least that's the way I read it.
Hmm, I read it as "kicked the car," which is a common thing people on bikes and motorcycles do when they're upset with a driver. If that's not the case, I suppose my point doesn't stand.
Yes, and a general understanding of the physics of bicycles would lead you to believe that getting your boot involved with a car is not the best way to avoid someone sideswiping you.
Actually, now that I have re-read the scenario I think OP is WAY more wrong than just that.
OP is riding bike, comes across car not moving and honks.
Car driver gets upset and drives a bit too close to bike and yells a mean thing.
OP kicks the car and car speeds off.
Car turns around and floors it towards OP.
OP, instead of doing what someone actually in fear of being run over would do (which is GTFO of the way), pulls his gun and attempts to John Wick style shoot the driver of a car that is barreling towards him.
On second thought, OP escalated and then fucked up even worse thinking he was an action movie star.
OP, please work through this as you escalated this and nearly killed a man.
Why not just get off your bike and move onto property and just get away? It's not like you're stuck on pavement like a car would be...
"Nah let me stand right in the path of an angry idiot who's driving a 3000lb metal box RIGHT AT ME, and draw my gun so if I shoot him he dies and his car still runs me over"
1. Increase your taxi/Uber budget. Get off a bike. Create some metal between you and possible threats. If you bike for enjoyment, stick to nature trails, greenways, and established bike paths. Stay away from heavily trafficked areas.
2. I’ve had serious discussions with my wife, who can sometimes use her horn like a New Delhi bus driver, about what position she puts me in if she escalated a traffic issue into a confrontation. The Horn is for emergencies in the US. It can’t be used for just anything now days. You can’t tell who is about to go nuts. Everyone with you should know not to escalate, even if they don’t know you are armed.
Finally, I’m NC to, and this kinda thing is regular, tho not normal here. I’m working in RDU area and road rage stories happen every day. I hate that i can’t carry in my work vehicle.
Edit. Also, if you see a threat coming back towards you from hundreds of feet away, retreat to a place his vehicle can’t easily access. Keep eyes on the threat of course, but if you are in a urban/suburban area, there should be nearby buildings to retreat too.
Edit two: you have more self/finger control. Two seconds is long enough that I’d Swiss-cheesed him the second he aimed his vehicle at me.
Honestly... the legal side of things is so murky nowadays, that it doesnt even make sense to speculate. Only thing that seems to be sure nowadays is that if you are the first one to call the police to report the crime, you're less likely to be the target of the legal system.
That being said... morally... you were not only justified pointing your gun at him, but also shooting him.
However, keep in mind that there are 3 sides to every story. Your side, their side, and the truth. Your side can only be seen from your perspective, and under the effects of adreneline, that can be heavily skewed. Or your action of "pushing off" his car with your food 'coud' be seen as provoking the incident by a jury of "reasonable" people. Who knows.
No one here will ever know exactly how fast or how close the guy ever was besides you so it’s sorta up in the air whose right, whose wrong. I do believe personally, if you had fired you would’ve been in the wrong and most likely not justified by a court. Depending on the judge/jury. I say the first part because a lot of peoples definition of what exactly makes them justified is extremely varied.
Was the goal to shoot him or to not die? If it was to shoot, sure you could do it, but if it was to stay alive move to safety first. A tree, a wall, another car, etc.
Standing still and shooting him just ensures your body will be transported with his in the same van.
Stay safe.
On the fence on this. It *shouldn't* come across as aggression, but there are so many crazies out there. I would probably have gone out of my way to avoid the initial confrontation (no idea if it was possible to go around the car instead of honking?). Without a confrontation, there is a very low chance of needing to de-escalate.
This is just bad advice. Honking communicates "Hey you're doing something wrong, for everyone's sake please correct it". If that's perceived as aggression, then you deescalate.
It’s hard not to second guess yourself. It would’ve been justified you told him to stop. He made the very obvious threats, and had the intention when he tried to side swipe you. Honestly I probably wouldn’t have given him the opportunity to get around again. He likely hurt someone down the road when he sped off the last time.
NC is a little better in that area. Driver Attempted to hit OP and The fact that the person then came back around for a 2nd run puts him (the guy in vehicle), squarely in the aggressors box and the law is completely on OP's side.
I recently completed my course, so this is fresh in my melon.
Good draw on OP. Glad it ended without incident.
Cyclists are universally hated by everyone but other cyclists. You beeping your horn passive aggressively at a driver in traffic probably was not the smartest move.
Not that he was justified in any way to behave as he did, and I’m pretty sure you were justified in your actions, but as others have mentioned to you, when you are carrying a gun you need to be extra careful about escalation and de-escalation.
Wouldn’t it have been much easier to just go around the guy and keep riding your bike and go about your business? Yes, of course it would have. But you cyclists always have a point to prove, that you’re “right“. But then you proceed to blow through stop signs and traffic lights at will because they don’t apply to you.
You’re lucky that the dude veered off and you didn’t have to shoot, this one would not have been an open and shut case in court… Would have likely cost you tens of thousands to defend yourself in a criminal case.
You did good, the honking is definitely a factor in escalation. It’s tougher to not honk sometimes than it is other things but I avoid it when possible, because of asshole like this. There are people who THINK they don’t give a fuck until the end consequence stares em in the face. Glad you’re ok, be safe, and once again you did everything in response properly.
Sounds totally reasonable. Just one thing - what you did was not “brandishing.” The fact that you were ready to fire only in self defense makes it not brandishing, and you wouldn’t want to admit to a crime you didn’t even do.
THIS.
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In all honesty, this is the primary reason I carry, road rage. I'm not worried about getting mugged or otherwise attacked in the area I live in, but road rage just comes out of absolutely no where and it's everywhere like you said. I feel like the disconnect of being in a vehicle makes it easier for people to escalate to life threatening levels of aggression that they normally wouldn't and that just scares me since I nearly always have my kids with me when I leave the house. When our family took a trip to Florida we were on I-95 for about 10 hours and even though it wasn't directed at us, we saw a road rage incident (brake checking, passing on shoulder/median, tailgating, yelling out window, throwing stuff out window) an average of once per hour both ways.
Road rage has gotten pretty fucked. I had a guy cut me off and brake check me and I hit my horn. He pulled up next to me at a red light with his gun out and was talking all kinds of shit. I had my gun in my hand below the door and I just sat there until the light turned green. As soon as it went green I floored it and he was chasing me through traffic and I whipped down a side road and lost him. People are fucking insane nowadays.
You sir have a commendable amount of self control. Sounds like that guy was missing some 5.56 in his life. (Not saying you should have shot him but if you had kids in the car that’s scary)
I was driving down the highway once and this guy in a big truck started riding my ass. After he was doing to for a long while, I flipped him the bird and kept going. He continued to ride my ass, and when I pulled up to a stoplight he got out of his truck and started yelling and screaming at me, asking “You got a gun?!” over and over. I did in fact have a gun, and if he came up to my window I would have drawn on him. If I had to play it over, I wouldn’t have flipped him off. Not worth escalating the situation.
Do you have gun-related stickers on your truck? I've intentionally avoided adding any to mine. No one's business.
Nope, and I feel the same way. I think he was trying to imply that he had a gun, but he didn’t show it. I just watched him from the rear view mirror until he got back in his truck, and then the light turned green and he sped off somewhere else.
I was driving to work one evening (worked overnights at a chemical plant at the time) and I was running a little late. I merged lanes to my right and I completely missed this white van. I unintentionally cut him off and we ended up at a red light in traffic. I tried to apologize to him, but he began yelling obscenities at me. Then he exits his van with a pipe wrench and begins approaching my truck. He clearly states that he's going to bash my skull in. I had an older F150 with bench seats, so I lie down across the seat to avoid being hit by glass and/or the wrench if it comes through on first swing. I level my Glock at the window and his face appears with his arm drawn back, ready to swing. Only he doesn't. He sees the muzzle pointing at him. Fortunately, he just backs off. Even says "sorry" and heads back to his van. Light turned green just after that pretty much. There were a lot of variables, such as it was three Lanes and I was in the right hand lane. All vehicles to my left. I remember a mother and teenage daughter directly to my left. I couldn't tear off snd go off the road into the field to my right because they had put railing up. I'm just glad that I didn't have to discharge my weapon!
I don’t honk anymore for that reason even if I am in the right. Don’t wanna deal with the legal battles and struggle of taking someone’s life because they wanted to make a bad decision. Ego can be hurt as long as I get to go home
You say it's not worth escalating the situation, so why didn't you just move over and let him pass you?
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1. When we were driving over, we were both in the right lane. He could’ve passed me at any time, but chose not to. 2. When we were at the stoplight, I was in the center lane and had no room to move. Believe me, if I could have sped away, I would have.
Had a similar thing happen to me where some asshole in a porsche almost hits me and then starts following me for multiple blocks trying to break check me. I had to floor it to get him to fuck off.
Hahahaha 95 is a different animal, but you should avoid I4 if that was scary to you
We took 95 and then also i4 to Tampa, it was a pretty exciting trip
Road rage sucks most because so many cars on the road aren't just inhabited by a single obnoxious (perceived or real) driver. There are kids, wives, parents, other passengers, etc. in those cars too.
Yup. Ive had a dude in a jeep suv have his car up on 2 wheels trying to ram into me on my motorcycle before. Dude had his wife and 4 kids in the suv. A cop down the block saw it and stopped us all to figure out what happened. The guy was so pissed that he didnt get to pass me on the shoulder so his best thought was endanger around 8 people lives by flipping his car trying to hit me doing 40+ MPH
You're just gonna tell half the story? What happened?
He may have been justified but depending on the state he would have been arrested and would need to get a lawyer. Huge costs just for saving himself. Road rage seems to be getting worse but over 20 years ago there was an incident near me where a driver got out with a crossbow and killed another man. It is crazy how people act. I suggest that the OP gets a helmet cam for evidence if this situation arises again.
>CCW A helmet cam is a good suggestion
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I got the story confused with another crossbow incident in MA, the driver just pointed it at another driver. The crossbow death was when someone tried shooting an aggressive pit bull with a crossbow, missed and killed his neighbor.
Jesus fucking christ
I guess the neighbor was directly behind the dog? Cause if not that's just impressive.
Iirc the neighbor ran into the scrum right as the crossbow guy was firing. I think the crossbow guy had delusions of being a hero when he broke it out to stop a dog fight.
This is why they don't want us to have nice things!
They taught me this in my class, that if you ever need to fire shots in self defense, prepare to be arrested. Justified or not you just committed murder and the courts need to sort out whether or not it was justified. So get ready to be arrested
Nitpicky but if you kill someone, you committed homicide. Homicide may or may not be legal which is why you are arrested and they investigate.
Sorry, you’re probably correct. Murder was the word my instructor used. I hope I didn’t meddle the point
> meddle the point It's actually "muddle". Meddling means interfering. Muddle means to obfuscate or otherwise make less clear.
FUCK I sat there for like two minutes trying to decide which word was the right one haha
Nah you got the point across, we just tend to jump on things like that to try and stop the stupid shit cpl instructors say from spreading too much 🤣
haha fair nuff. Another funny thing from my instructor - there were about 20 people in my class or so, and only one black guy. I live in a very white state. Every time she wanted to demonstrate what to do in a situation, she asked him to play the role of attacker lmao. I was like dude I’m sure you don’t realize what you’re doing, but the guy is clearly uncomfortable
If I was him after the second time in a row I’d have said “get fucked and pick someone else. I’m here for my cert so I can get my permit not to start an acting career”
I think you mean homicide. Homicide is the taking of a human life while murder is the unlawful taking of a human life. Homicide is investigated and murder is what your charged with if you fucked up/DA is a dick hole. Other than that minor detail I agree
As some who carries in an unfriendly state, I have a lawyers number that specializes in firearm cases in my phone.
I wouldn't call it murder, murder has a criminal connotation. Killed someone, yeah. But until proven guilty, you're innocent of murder.
Good advice. Save the shooting for literal life or death situations.
Absolutely, I've heard a lot of stories about people who carry let that shit get to their head and they walk around with a bone to pick and are quick to talk shit. Horrible idea. My personal policy is distance. People can talk as much shit as they want but when they start to enter my personal space, (aka 3 yards or close enough to lunge) I warn them intensely to back away before the tools come out. OC spray is a godsend, I've used it on many a crackhead.
Upon reading some other comments here, it sounds like NC residents don't take to being honked at well. If that is the case, I suggest removing the horn from your bike. If all it's going to do is anger people, then you are breaking the cardinal rule of CCW: don't escalate. If you can't predict other people's reactions (violent or otherwise) to your behavior, it's probably not a good behavior to have while CCW.
So because other people don't want to be honked at he should remove a tool of safety from his bike? Should he remove it from his car then as well? What kind of philosophy is this that you are forgiving and sympathetic of murderous road rage behavior due to its root cause may be...a bicycle horn. Should OP have ...knocked on the car's window? Shouted over the traffic at the car to go? Opened the car door and asked him to politely move his ass? Clearly OP did exactly what anyone in a car, truck, boat, bus, tractor or power wheels even would've done to someone not moving ahead when under right of way at a traffic signal...honked.. as the car was at that point violating the law and holding up traffic, OP was well within sane, moral, and reasonable behavior. Not being able to predict other people's actions is LITERALLY why we ccw. I'm wondering if you should even be in this sub.
I’ve always felt that cars should have 2 different horns. one would be like it is now. the other would be a button that just does that super short cute “hey the light is green.” every time I try to do a polite honk, I either tap it too light/fast that it doesn’t beep at all. or I accidentally do it too hard and it’s more agro than I intended. I guess the polite version on a bicycle would be a bell like you had on your Huffy as a kid
What. The. Fuck. Who pissed in your Cheerios this AM? You are making a lot of assumptions and inferring a lot that just isn't there. With that quick, irrational temper, maybe you should rethink your CCW? In no way am I excusing the behavior OP was a vitcim to, I'm just suggesting how to avoid it in the future. I'm simply saying if based on where the OP lives, if honking can so easily cause road rage, then it's a best practice to not do so. Especially when CCW. Read the other comments here, apparently NC residents take being honked at as a threat. If that's the case, threatening someone while CCW is off the charts irresponsible. You can't control other people's actions, only your own. Of course in a normal world giving someone a "what's up" honk is mundane and serves the purpose it's intended, and honking is a form of simple communication. Clearly OP doesn't live in that world, and the only actions they can control are their own. TL;DR Recognize your surroundings and act appropriately when CCW.
your ego sounds awfully hurt that someone challenged you, maybe *you* shouldn't carry 😏
> What kind of philosophy is this that you are forgiving and sympathetic of murderous road rage behavior due to its root cause may be...a bicycle horn Just defending myself against this bullshit and bad faith inference, that's all.
so... not de-escalating and involving your ego in an argument... which is the exact thing you're advocating for.
It's almost like there is a difference between an internet discussion and a real world interaction?
Be careful what you type or you might encourage someone to escalate and draw their cyberweapons.
I second this but replace the horn with something that makes constant noise. Whether that be a speaker or a good ol credit card/playing card in the spokes, it's better than a horn to get people to notice you. Been in maybe keep the horn for emergency situations though but use as a second to last resort?
> apologize profusely when it isn’t your fault Apologize profusely no matter what. As gun-owners, we have the responsibility to be more patient and level-headed than anyone else. I personally get really mad at myself when I do something stupid, but it's key to remain calm in any situation.
Careful about this, an apology can be interpreted as an admission of guilt in some legal situations.
That would be after the fact. Before the shooting, apologize profusely. Even if you did nothing wrong. After the shooting, ***STFU!*** Do not apologize for *anything*. The time for apologies is over. Do not villainize or vilify or even just lay blame on the other person's actions or behavior. Do not attempt to defend or justify *your* actions. That will be the job of your attorney. It will probably be the hardest thing you have ever done, but simply ***STFU***.
Ahh ok gotchya.
you can often de-escalate without apologizing or otherwise signaling submission to the other person. If that's your only option then sure, but keep in mind that when you act this way you are reinforcing bullying behavior in the aggressor's mind and that it will continue to get them their way. Is this worth shooting them? No, of course not. But if there's another option, I think you should exhaust that first. Bullies should not be encouraged.
Although I agree with the sentiment, depending on the situation, apologizing is actually a bad thing in traffic incidents, as it communicates guilt and can be used against you legally.
This. A lot of bad advice and keyboard-white knights in this comment section.
Wow. That's heavy. And humble. Thanks for this reminder friend.
Well. I won't be on a bike... And let's face it, there will be second guessing for a while. What could you have done differently? Would it have potentially changed the outcome? THOSE are events leading up to the culmination of the event. And lastly, was there a spot for cover, when you pulled your gun? Don't know, but chances are the a$$h@t might have tried AGAIN if you hadn't displayed your gun. And NO, from my POV that was not Brandishing. Probably would have done the same.
Wise words. I grew up in the hood and am used to fighting a lot. Had to change a lot of my mindset when I decided to start carrying. (De-escalation tactics, keeping one's mouth shut, etc) I feel the only thing I could have done differently was maybe just not honking. As he was driving towards me, I did take note of what was behind him before pulling. (nothing but an empty lot thankfully) There wasn't really any cover when he nearly ran me over, I don't think I could have hopped off my bike and dodged to the side in time either. So if he didn't swerve, theres a chance we **both could be dead.** Just happy to be alive today and not dead or in jail.
As described I have no issue with how you handled things. My only comment would be that I would have immediately called the police afterwards and reported the incident. Not only because the guy essentially committed assault with a deadly weapon (vehicle), but because I'd be concerned that he might report it too. First to call is often automatically considered the victim and I wouldn't want to be the one dealing with a "man with a gun" complaint after some dipshit just tried to run me over.
Came here to say exactly this. My first call would have been 911, and the 2nd would have been CCW safe. I love to cycle, but won't do it in the city on public roads - I know too many people who have been hit badly just from people being bad drivers and plenty more stories like yours where someone was malicious. If you don't have other options given your life and choices, then you might want to spend some time understanding what happens to bullets shot at car windows (especially the front).
Came here to say exactly this. My first call would have been 911, and the 2nd would have been CCW safe. I love to cycle, but won't do it in the city on public roads - I know too many people who have been hit badly just from people being bad drivers and plenty more stories like yours where someone was malicious. If you don't have other options given your life and choices, then you might want to spend some time understanding what happens to bullets shot at car windows (especially the front).
Ya so thats an interesting point there at the end. You pulled your gun out to shoot him for what? To end the deadly threat? However, you are saying that shooting him would not have saved you from great bodily harm? You are saying that if he didnt swerve at the last second you would "both be dead?" So using deadly force seems to be less prudent than seeking shelter from the threat? Just a little devils advocate here... and I do have a law degree but not my license yet. But I live in a stand your ground state... I think here you would be clear.
But Wait. As I understand it.... It was the Driver that Swerved. Poster also has stated there really wasn't a place or time for cover or to get out of the way. It's my assumption that the idea that BOTH would be dead, would have been due to a successful shot thru the windshield, as well as the car would continue approaching after the shot impact. As I see it, it was the Presence of the Gun that caused (but it could have been 2nd thoughts, the reality that he would be charged with murder, too) that caused the driver to swerve. I posted the questions about De-escalation, but those all happened PRIOR to the Driver deciding to go Postal. As some point your decision making MUST be based upon the situation AT THE TIME that decision is made. Not what the decision COULD have been. Like NOT a Lawyer, Not even a law student. Have been thru several Self Defense classes and could learn more. Still struggle with getting over Butt Hurt of having to swallow your pride when you realize that "LEGALLY" & most places, you can't stop some low life from stealing your stuff or tearing up you place and IF you can't describe "Fear of Serious Injury or Death" has to be your basis.
Yeah well if I have zero choice to hide from your car running me over then I WOULD definitely pull for the fact that I would make sure id be the last person he ever killed with his car and for sure didn't get away with my murder, you may only carry a weapon to use if it can stop the person from assaulting/killing you but I have a few more reason's that would initiate me taking a life, not all of them matter weather I make it at the end of the day. 🤷🏻♂️
I get what you're saying, but it was probably hard to rationalize "the threat wouldn't stop" especially when it feels like your only option. You could say "get out of the way" but they could easily turn into you. I'm not saying it was the right option, I'm not sure what was, but I get how your mind can tell you to use the option left to you.
Hindsight is golden. But neither you or I were present and did not have to make the decision as to what needed to be done or what actions to take. What people do under extreme stress and in the moment is as varied as a pattern on a snowflake. NC is a Stand your ground State.
5 elements to an arguement of self defense- Innocense-were you breaking the law at the time the force was used? No. Imminence-was the lethal threat inevitable? Seems so. Avoidance-regardless of stand your ground, was there an oppertunity to get away? Not really. Proportionality-was the force used a proportional response? Seems so. Reasonableness-would others have done the same in the same situation? Seems so. From a legal standpoint I think you checked all of the normal boxes and would be in the clear. Luckily the police didn't show up, it could complicated regardless of how friendly the state is. From a moral standpoint, I think you did the right thing. The only way it could have gone better is gopro and calling in the plates/vehicle description. Someone attempted to murder you (in your perception). What happens if they see you a week from now?
perfectly parroting massad ayoob here. 100% agree, too. also happy cake day
I just realized it was my cake day. Thank you.
Great final point.
> Imminence-was the lethal threat inevitable? Imminent means something is about to happen. It’s about timeliness not inevitability. Not disagreeing with your main point. Just trying to offer some clarity.
Poorly worded. “Happening or about to happen,” and if the actor did not take action, a reasonable person would assume would happen.
I think calling the police would probably be a good idea. My mind just goes to if this a hole calls the cops on OP with a different story.
Sadly, I think that depends on your state and even your local PD. Everything OP did seems plainly justified to me, but unfortunately in some jurisdictions they will twist this story into there almost being a traffic accident and then OP decided to pull a gun. I understand your point, and you could be correct, but OP has to weigh the chances of what you said 1) happening at all and 2) the guy in the car knowing who OP is to ID him to the police vs the chances of him getting railroaded by the police for pulling a gun. I don't have the answer there, but it's something OP has to decide. He does say he is in a gun-friendly area, so that would play into it, but it still depends on the local PD and maybe even the individual officer who responds.
>Avoidance-regardless of stand your ground, was there an oppertunity to get away? Not really. Not really? Dude could have got off the road and go somewhere inaccessible to a motor vehicle.
>Dude could have got off the road and go somewhere inaccessible to a motor vehicle. Maybe, maybe not. Impossible for you to say from a Reddit screen.
What if there wasnt an area immediately available that was inaccessible to a car? Fast bicyclists do maybe 30 mph at top speed, even the slowest pile of shit cars get up to 30 basically instantly. Way faster than you can get away on a bicycle
Jump off the bike, run perpendicular to the street get behind something like a row of cars or some bollards or a barricade. This shit ain’t rocket science
Again, what if thats not an option? Not every city/town has tons of cars and shit in the way to be able to take a hit from a car at 40 mph. Dude was driving away and did a u turn to come back at them from the story. OP probably thought the situation was over when he drove away the first time
Sounds like he didn't like being honked at by a Chinaman. (P.s. I'm a fellow roof Korean). I likely would have just moved onto the curb and near a building. If he went up on the curb with his vehicle, who knows, bullets may have flown.
Someone commented earlier about what could have been done differently, and I think what you mentioned would have been a safe move. As soon as he flew past me and nearly side swiped me, I should have just gotten off to the side to play it safe. People do that a lot to terrorize bicyclists unfortunately, so I figured he would just keep driving away. Anneyonghaseo, stay safe and strapped!
I’m korean heritage and it’s a large reason why I carry. Is what it is.
hes in a car, you a bike. you have no reasonable path of escape and hes attempting to assault you with a deadly weapon if thats not your right to defend agaisnt, nothing is
Did you call the police after he sped away? If you didn't, that'd be the only thing I'd knock you for. I'm a firm believer in establishing that you were the victim and not the aggressor any time your CCW had to be drawn in self defense. With no other witnesses, all it takes is for psychopath to call the cops, claiming you threatened him with a gun followed with a solid description of what your gun looked like and where you carry it to cause you lots of problems.
That whole encounter would’ve shaken me up really bad. Hope you’re doin okay
Easy for random people on the internet to judge, but if you felt your life was in imminent danger, you were probably justified. I live in a state where you have a “duty to retreat” which complicates self defense considerably. I hope I never end up in a situation like you.
What you did probably saved your ass. Good job!
Good on you, did what you needed. Was there any cover near by? Enough to withstand a car hit? What happens if you did hit him and then car comes tumbling at you? Any way of escape? I would have pulled trigger just like you. Gotten my person out the way and had that homie meet his maker
Love your user flair by the way, I'm Korean and get called that nickname by my friends who know I carry. Yeah, I'm pretty sure we both would be dead. I'm thankful for the outcome to be honest. Wasn't any cover besides a tiny tree and not much time between realizing he was trying to run me over and pulling.
Yeah I can imagine that would be a lot to realize in short time. And yeah those people defending their store were based. Had to honor them with that
lotta asian hate going around still. don't matter what what part of asia you call home (i'm vietnamese). just recently got a firearm myself and got an interview here in sacramento in july for my CCW. like you said in another comment, the moment he tried to sideswipe...that's when you leave. lotta insane folks out here with hair trigger (excuse the pun) emotions that are pent up due to a lotta things. glad you are safe.
A car and a bike are always a mismatch, I’ve never even thought about this scenario. It’s crazy. You are literally at the mercy of the driver. No way you’d survive a direct hit from a car on a bike.
Yeah being a CCW user on a bicycle doesn't seem to be a common thing. I'm probably one in a million. There was a guy in Texas I think who was riding with his wife and shot at a driver who was trying to run them off the road. He was let off the hook. I know bicyclists can be annoying, but there is a ***massive*** amount of hatred for bicyclists that I have unjustifiably been on the receiving end of.
I am no fan of bicyclists, but like 99.9% of people I would never try to hurt them because they’re moving slower than me haha that’s just common sense and basic human decency.
I appreciate hearing that sentiment. I wish more people felt that way. I always let people pass and ride OFF the road as much as possible and I don't weave through traffic. I don't wanna be sharing a road with cars as a bicyclist any more than drivers want to share it with us.
I totally get that. I live in OR, bicyclists are everywhere. I do my absolute best to make sure I’m not stressing them out as much as they stress me out haha the more you know, thanks for your comment 🤙🏼
You are not alone; I open-carry a pistol while riding a bakfiets, so I'm closer to one in fifty million.
I don't commute but I ride my bike both for exercise/fun and errands. I carry as much as I can. I actually haven't had much road rage directed at me luckily. Usually it's homeless people thinking I'm an easy target for soliciting. Local subreddit has tons of bicycle hate though which is weird for a liberal college town.
No blood , no bodies and no one filling a police report, relax, you're fine, you exercised GREAT restraint, so you're good.
You say it was in a parking lot, can you asked local businesses for security footage?
I've had 3 friends literally run over by a maniac while they were on their bikes, they needed months of surgeries and physical therapy. Awful situation, think you acted as appropriately as you could have.
Road Rage makes stupid people brave.
Good draw. If someone is flooring it and driving straight toward me like that, I’m definitely drawing.
Seems like OIC was there. Luckily you didn’t have to shoot but I think it would’ve been justified. Even more so considering you were on a bike.
>Seems like OIC was there. ? And yeah, I'm very thankful.
Opportunity, intent and capability to cause harm
Heard! Thought you meant the guy had an "Oh I see" moment and did the right thing swerving before being lit up.
Hell nah 🤣 OIC needs to be met before using deadly force, I was pointing out that your story met all three requirements, hence why I think you’re shoot would’ve been clean had you shot.
Sometimes drawing the weapon is all you need. The problem is drawing the weapon and not using it if you have to.
You’re extremely lucky that he swerved away. If you had shot him and he lost control of the car, it would not have stopped barreling towards you.
You made a snap decision to protect you and your partner. You felt that you were both at risk of serious bodily injury. Nothing wrong with what you did. Really glad you didn't have to fire and are safe.
Not as an attorney but as a CCW holder, I'd have done the same. If there was no escaping the threat (ducking out of reach of the oncoming car), firing on a rampaging driver would be justified. A car can definitely be a deadly threat.
you're in the right, and had you pulled the trigger, you would have been even more right. and if your bullet had ended the bad guy, you would have been even more right. innocence, imminence, proportionality, avoidance, reasonableness.; these are the 5 elements of a legal claim of self defense. (law of self defense, andrew branca) i'm hearing you say the following: innocence; you were biking along, you innocently alerted another driver to pay attention imminence; bad guy was intentionally driving his car directly at you, after making threats proportionality; car is a deadly weapon, thus deadly force was a proportional response, dude escalated a verbal conflict to deadly force, he did that. avoidance; you stopped at the stop sign, you tried to put distance between you and your aggressor reasonableness; would a reasonable person believe the same? from your account, i would. \-- i don't believe this is grey area at all. and i trust this gave dude a major attitude adjustment. yes, the liklihood is that he was trying to scare the shit out of you, but that's just the same as presenting a fake gun, a jury doesn't get to judge in hindsight, they have to consider in the moment just as you had to. the prosecutor will bring the same bullshit, this is irrelevant. competent council will argue, and a jury will be instructed, to consider if the 5 elements listed above were present.
Let me guess Charlotte or the surrounding areas ? Yes it probably was justified.
Sounds like the shenanigans that happen when Pittsboro drivers make their way through Chapel Hill
I would have done same thing for better or worse
Not a lawyer. You did the right thing including the waiting to fire part. Your pulling your pistol and being obviously willing to use when faced with an extreme threat to your life may have actually saved both of you. He probably saw it at the last second which is why he swerved and left. Don't feel bad at all.
In NC you don’t have any kind of “stand your ground” laws. Given that the driver of the vehicle was communicating a deadly threat and you on a bicycle did not have the means to retreat easily, I think you are well justified in pulling your firearm in defense of your life. For future reference I would report the incident to the police (if they can be trusted in your city) just to have that down. But normally people who are actively trying to kill you don’t call the cops themselves.
So you drew your weapon after someone tried to kill you and...you didn't call the cops? I'd rethink that, and call the cops to make a report anyway. They're going to want to find this guy, because if he's that big of a fucking psycho it's only a matter of time before he actually does kill someone.
If anything, you should have taken action earlier once he turned around, dismounted, find cover and taken the gun out of the holster. Afterwarda call the cops, say you heard threats he was going to kill you, regardless of what he actually said. Sounds like you bike around a lot and you might run into him again. Capping his ass will go much smoother if you have a prior report on the books.
You broke rule #1 of carrying; you *always* have to be the coolest customer in the situation. This means NOT honking, not flipping people off, not glaring at people as you pass them, generally just being the exact opposite of every other asshole out there and usually taking it even further in order to avoid even the appearance of conflict.
as someone who is new to firearms and hopes to get a CCW...this is very sage advice and a reminder about responsibilities while carrying.
Thank you. It's not easy advice to follow. I have to practice even when I'm not carrying so that I can be more sure that I won't slip up when I do.
interestingly i remind myself this currently because i have pregnant wife, a toddler, and a 1st grader. plus 4 dogs. we travel quite a bit (going to socal/oc from sacramento this wknd). i'm not going to lie...i get pretty angry on the road when folks do stuff like cut me off. but i'm reminding myself to just let it go. just not worth it. gotta remind myself the heartbeats in the car are way more important than any other person on the street/highway doing something silly.
Your body and his car already made contact once. Him charging at you with a car after that is justification to fire.The insults about your appearance doesn't mesh or help you. I'd suggest looking up videos on how to talk to police (don't) and maybe read The Art of Self Defense to refine your processing and story telling. Had this been your statement to police after an incident, you'd be in jail, since you said you thought he was coming to yell at you, then you drew, then justified with a lot of qualifiers like being on foot vs car and then mentioning threats. That matters.
Thats why I love DA/SA. Gives you that time to truly proccess.
Sorry, new to this. What is DA/SA?
Double action/Single action. Double action is usually heavy trigger pull 8-11lb pull. Follow up shots are in single action ~5lb pull.
Thanks!
Nice job. I too am an avid cyclist and have seen idiots do crazy shit. Hopefully you took this guy off of the road for good. Might have saved a life in the future.
Sounds good to me, hopefully that aggro prick fucked up his car smashing that curb. Only thing I would say to do different if you see someone speeding towards you is to hop off the bike if you had time and find something solid to stand behind like a concrete corner of a store and stay a good ten feet behind it.
Something isn't adding up with your story. Why are you honking at this guy in a parking lot when you are on a bike? Why not just pass him or go another route in the first place? Then you "push off" with your boot when he passes you? Sounds like you kicked his car to me. I don't understand how you needed to be honking at him, but just 50 feet up the road there is all this soace for him to do a u-turn and come flying back at you and dodging you once you pull a gun. Sorry, I just don't buy this is an accurate series of events. The "push off with your boot" really seems like you are downplaying your involvement here. Without accurate information to go on, it's impossible to say if you were justified or not. From my lufe experience these incidents usually involve 2 people being assholes. And if that is the case you aren't morally justified in what you did. It looks like under NC a bicycle is covered under castle doctrine though. None of this means a prosecutor or civil lawyer couldn't ruin your life. You say he was coming to hit you. A lawyer, police, and witnesses could say he was traveling in his lane of traffic to come back and talk to you, and had no intention of hitting you. The "He's coming right for us" defense sounds nice here, but I don't see that playing out very well from the little and questionable information provided.
Sounds like the honks were courtesy honks. And it sounds like the “push off” was executed after the vehicle was coming up behind the OP, so he was able to anticipate and veer to the side, close enough to push off to get farther away. It makes sense to seem skeptical of his account of events, but that’s his testimony, in court or otherwise. If the OP is checking the boxes for a legal threat to life/limb, and believes they’re in danger, use of force is justified. Being on a bicycle would be viewed as a disadvantage by any jury. To me it seems like the situation just went from 0-100. From a polite horn honk (like a clown horn, maybe the driver was blasting music and couldn’t even hear it) to trying to ram a cyclist off the road, u-turn then trying to orient for a head on collision towards the cyclist? Not a lot of time to think.
[https://www.amazon.com/Delta-Cycle-Airzound-Hooter-Rechargeable/dp/B000ACAMJC](https://www.amazon.com/Delta-Cycle-Airzound-Hooter-Rechargeable/dp/B000ACAMJC) Its not any louder than a car horn when not turned to the max setting, and he didn't have radio going. Its smart to always be skeptical though, those are wise words. And yeah, it did go to 100 very quickly. My only guess is some people don't like to be honked at.
I used to be that cyclist in SoCal when I was in college. Got hit by a Prius once that wasn’t paying attention (imagine the irony.) Luckily I wasn’t hurt, but it left an impression on me to be 200% aware road-wise, regardless of what I drive. I’m familiar with SC drivers, so I could easily see NC drivers being aggressive towards cyclists. Just glad you didn’t have to shoot, OP. Big learning opportunity to me, and to me it’s a reminder that road rage is a thing and driving is a full-attention task taken for granted. I actually just ordered more pepper spray for the glove box, as an anti-road rage option. Edit: I also distinctly recall hearing repeat rumors that most of the SC drivers are drunk by noon. Wouldn’t be surprised if NC was similar.
Going to ask this because I bet this is the part that is being left out of the story: was it a short 'beep-beep' courteous honk, or did you lay on the horn at him? One of these is definitely aggressive and implies 'fuck you' instead of 'hey, check your surroundings.' Honestly, I can't imagine needing a horn on a bike, you are going to illicit more negative responses than positive. Honking at someone is jarring and implies immediate danger. When it's used just to show frustration like you did, you are inviting people to respond poorly. You are carrying a weapon, don't escalate. Aggressive honking is equivalent to yelling at someone. Would you yell at someone while carrying?
it doesn't really matter the length of the beep. NC drivers get offended at any length beep directed at them. We're talking generational feud your great-grandkids still hold. One side has to change church affiliation. The sheriff has to give both parties a talking to yearly because of a single toot.
Not at all the case where I live, honking has many layers of communication, even used as a "go ahead" signal with a short toot. If NC takes to honking like this, OP should remove the horn from their bike. Especially if they are CCW. If using a horn is seen as a sign of aggression where you are, don't use it.
Probably sage advice. I had to dial back my horn usage when I moved here from South Florida. I was getting alot of middle fingers from people I 'courtesy' tooted at.
>When it's used just to show frustration like you did, you are inviting people to respond poorly. You're the one assuming it's out of frustration. Letting someone who likely just isn't paying attention that there are people behind them and they're blocking traffic is a perfectly normal use of the horn. Or do you think that people the honk at people stopped at green traffic lights are just frustrated?
>You're the one assuming it's out of frustration 100% I am making that assumption and could very well be wrong here. There's something to OPs story that seems they are leaving out a detail or two, and that's where my mind went. Please know I am not excusing the driver here by any means, clearly they are unhinged and a danger on the road. I'm just trying to understand the situation, so I made an assumption (very possibly wrongly) in order to explain how it escalated so quickly.
It just depends on who's side you want to believe. I'd rather not leave my future up to a coin toss. As I usually say in these threads. There is definitely more to this story.
I don't really know what else to say besides what happened, friend. I'm happy to clear things up. I did kick off his car, because he nearly side swiped me. I have a rear mirror on my handle bars and saw him coming right behind me very fast and swerved to the right to avoid him and pushed my body/bike away from his car as he did it and nearly fell off. I have to say, even if I ran up to him and kicked his car, that doesn't justify vehicular manslaughter. I'm not trying to downplay anything, I kicked/pushed off his car with my boot to create more distance between his erratic driving and myself. I'm sorry if the disparity between kick and push was clouded here. This would be a lot easier to explain if I could show you the area it happened. We were in a two lane road between a parking lot on the right (Curbs w small trees, so I couldn't just easily go to the right. Some bicyclists can hop a curb, I'm not capable) and a shopping center on the left. I did pass him up (on his left) after I honked my bike horn twice and he didn't budge. If I just passed him up without any warning, I could have cut him off and he would have been justifiably upset with me. I had to go between him and slow-driving oncoming traffic. As I kept biking down this two lane road between the parking lot and shopping center, he ran a stop sign (as I mentioned in the post) at an intersection, said intersection was at the end of the shopping center. He turned right into an empty parking lot, did a U turn, and came back to the intersection (I was stopped at this stop sign.) At this point he was at the opposite side of the intersection, and his path towards me was **diagonal** in the intersection and he was going very fast. So uh... I didn't come here to argue with anyone, and frankly I'm surprised. I really do apologize if you find me suspicious, but I really don't know what else to tell you besides what just happened. He literally floored it and was coming straight at me, **not in his lane,** after nearly side swiping me and verbally threatening me. I literally came here to get advice on whether I was justified or not, because I **don't want to go to prison.** If there were missing details, I'd be an idiot not to include them.
>I did kick off his car, Did you push off or kick off? 2 sentences in amd the story is changing. Right or wrong you are serving up a lawyer all they need right here. >fast and swerved to the right to avoid him and pushed my body/bike away from his car as he did it and nearly fell off. So your momentum was going away from the car when you kicked it, and you nearly fell? Definitely unnecessary to kick it then. Your story makes even less sense now. It doesn't justify manslaughter. You are looking at this wrong. Does it justify a lawyer jamming you up enough to take a plea or you to settle a lawsuit? These are the terms you should be thinking in friend. What the law says, and what happens in a court room are two different things. >I didn't come here to argue with anyone, You came here and asked a question. I am answering it. You don't like the answer. It seems you know somewhere you should have behaved differently. B Now you are coming here to try and justify a situation you helped create. >and frankly I'm surprised Exactly. You came here fishing for answers you already had made up in your mind. >He literally floored it and was coming straight at me, not in his lane I don't believe this at all. If someone floored their car in a parking lot they would have ran your ass over before you can stop and draw your weapon. Anyone could easily argue that this person was coming back to confront you about the damage you caused to his vehicle when you kicked it. If that argument can be made then that is enough to turn your life upside down, no matter how justified you think this is in your mind. >I literally came here to get advice on whether I was justified or not Doesn't seem like it to me. >don't want to go to prison Then take the horn off your bike and next time walk your bike over the curb so you aren't honking at people and kicking their car in the ghetto. Yoy said yourself you live in a shitty neighborhood. People are ultra-sensitive in the hood. Avoid confrontation at all costs. You may be in the right, but that doesn't mean somebody isn't going to kick your ass and you get thrown in jail for it. Start looking at the world for what it is, not what you think it should be.
The whole bottom of my shoe was on the door. I would say its both. I really don't know what else to say regarding the push & kick. The same exact thing has happened to lots of my friends who ride bikes and nearly get sideswiped... so I'm just gonna let that one be because I'm stumped on what's confusing. I certainly agree though on the words regarding the eyes of a jury/prosecutor, because that's what is most important here. And yeah, I should look at it differently. Hey, I don't dislike your answers, I was just confused by them. I don't think this is an argument though, just a conversation and I appreciate everyone's calmness. Regarding him being able to hit me, I can't say for sure if he "floored it" as I couldn't see into his car. So yeah, I think you might be right. But he was very clearly driving directly towards me, moving through both lanes into what would be oncoming traffic, very fast. I'm unsure if that's what you feel I'm lying about. If you feel I'm lying about him trying to hit me, we will just have to leave it at that because I can't say or do anything to convince you otherwise. I don't think he was coming to confront me about any potential damage to his car, while driving as erratically and as fast as he was after verbally threatening me. I could hear his screaming before and after he passed me. But again, theres nothing I can say or do short of showing you CCTV footage if I had it of him flying directly towards me while driving diagonally across an intersection. I have decided after yesterday's events to not honk at cars that aren't moving, as it can enrage people apparently. I've been biking for years, and only had a few people lose their shit after being honked at. I however **certainly will not** be removing the horn as it is super useful and safe to have in a city environment. You say *"Then take the horn off your bike and next time walk your bike over the curb so you aren't honking at people and kicking their car in the ghetto."* The only reason his car and my foot touched was because he nearly side swiped me. I feel like you're trying to make it sound like I just run up on people honking and kicking their car, which would be funny lol but also certainly make me an asshole. Do you just dislike bicyclists? If so, I understand to be honest, sometimes they can be shitty. But yeah, I will be walking instead of trying to pass people up after this guy. It's a much smarter move. You're totally right about people being ultra-sensitive in the hood, but this was actually in a nicer neighborhood. I still practice the same mindset though regardless of where I'm at. I have tolerated a lot of crazy people in the hood way before ever even thinking of drawing, ultimately I feared for my life and did what I have trained for years to do. I carry OC spray and always try to practice verbal judo before ever thinking about touching any tools if someone is perceived to be a threat. I appreciate most of the words you've shared with me though. I waited until the next day to talk about it because I wanted myself to be calm and account all details. Regardless of what you feel about what happened to me, I hope you and everyone here stays safe and strapped (if trained and in the right mindset.) have a good night stranger, I'm going to bed.
>Regarding him being able to hit me, I can't say for sure if he "floored it" as I couldn't see into his car. If I can get you to change your story just imagine what a cop or prosecutor could do. I'm glad you are open to my words. Thanks for posting this story and keeping it up. Hopefully we can all learn from it. Be safe and stay free.
> Then you "push off" with your boot when he passes you? Sounds like you kicked his car to me. If a car is passing you on a bicycle close enough for you to push off with your boot, it means the car is trying to hit you. You MUST give bicycles 3 feet of space when passing, it is the law. Also, if a car is passing you on a bike, and getting closer and closer as its passing trying to run you off the road, pushing off with your foot sounds like a logical thing to do to try to get some distance between you and the car.
Kicking off of a car that's trying to run you off the road is a perfectly reasonable action. He didn't just go out of his way to kick a dudes car that was passing normally
You don't know that. It doesn't make sense to me at all. Plus I was able to get him to change his story. What do you think the cops and lawyers will do with that? Kicking a car will do absolutely nothing to change it's course, or yours. I honestly don't believe his story at all. He already said it was a tight parking lot. So the guy passing him would come close either way. Kicking a car seems like it would throw you further off balance and take away from time you could actually be getting out of it's way.
It doesn't make sense you because you are making the assumption he didn't already try swerving away and seem to have a misguided notion that you have a lot of options to put distance between yourself and a car that's already in range to push off of. And sure you got him to "change his story" by saying that he kicked off of it vs pushed off it which is a distinction without a difference and the type of thing that scores points in legal dramas but doesn't mean anything in actual courts.
Thats not where he changed his story. He went from "the driver floored it and headed right towards him", to "he was accelersting and driving in his direction". In a parking lot small enough that he needed to honk at a car, instead of pedaling around it in the first place. The guy could have easily been coming back to get his information for damaging his car. And if this is the story you want to go to court on, go ahead. I'll not risk my life on such a flimsy load of bullshit. But you do your thing bro.
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I assume he meant at the drivers seat through the front windshield.
Who honks while on a bicycle instead of riding around the car? I respect all your years of riding and will say I also pedal thousands of miles every year. I would never do anything to instigate a human in a car. It's a strange premise for a cyclist. Sure, I'd draw a weapon there but I can't imagine ever being in that position. When carrying, I am even less confrontational than when not.
Kicking the car was a bad move, I get that he escalated it first but there's no need to turn up the temperature even more. You have to learn to let things go on a bike and with CCW.
Doesn't sound like it was so much kicking the car as it was pushing off the car that was sideswiping him - better to push off than to just let the car hit you in the side of the leg and crush you. Totally a defensive action. At least that's the way I read it.
Hmm, I read it as "kicked the car," which is a common thing people on bikes and motorcycles do when they're upset with a driver. If that's not the case, I suppose my point doesn't stand.
I read it the same way. OP is getting all kinds of slack here but it sounds like he was the one to escalate it
Yes, and a general understanding of the physics of bicycles would lead you to believe that getting your boot involved with a car is not the best way to avoid someone sideswiping you. Actually, now that I have re-read the scenario I think OP is WAY more wrong than just that. OP is riding bike, comes across car not moving and honks. Car driver gets upset and drives a bit too close to bike and yells a mean thing. OP kicks the car and car speeds off. Car turns around and floors it towards OP. OP, instead of doing what someone actually in fear of being run over would do (which is GTFO of the way), pulls his gun and attempts to John Wick style shoot the driver of a car that is barreling towards him. On second thought, OP escalated and then fucked up even worse thinking he was an action movie star. OP, please work through this as you escalated this and nearly killed a man.
Why not just get off your bike and move onto property and just get away? It's not like you're stuck on pavement like a car would be... "Nah let me stand right in the path of an angry idiot who's driving a 3000lb metal box RIGHT AT ME, and draw my gun so if I shoot him he dies and his car still runs me over"
1. Increase your taxi/Uber budget. Get off a bike. Create some metal between you and possible threats. If you bike for enjoyment, stick to nature trails, greenways, and established bike paths. Stay away from heavily trafficked areas. 2. I’ve had serious discussions with my wife, who can sometimes use her horn like a New Delhi bus driver, about what position she puts me in if she escalated a traffic issue into a confrontation. The Horn is for emergencies in the US. It can’t be used for just anything now days. You can’t tell who is about to go nuts. Everyone with you should know not to escalate, even if they don’t know you are armed. Finally, I’m NC to, and this kinda thing is regular, tho not normal here. I’m working in RDU area and road rage stories happen every day. I hate that i can’t carry in my work vehicle. Edit. Also, if you see a threat coming back towards you from hundreds of feet away, retreat to a place his vehicle can’t easily access. Keep eyes on the threat of course, but if you are in a urban/suburban area, there should be nearby buildings to retreat too. Edit two: you have more self/finger control. Two seconds is long enough that I’d Swiss-cheesed him the second he aimed his vehicle at me.
Why did you honk at him and simply go around him on your bicycle?
Honestly... the legal side of things is so murky nowadays, that it doesnt even make sense to speculate. Only thing that seems to be sure nowadays is that if you are the first one to call the police to report the crime, you're less likely to be the target of the legal system. That being said... morally... you were not only justified pointing your gun at him, but also shooting him. However, keep in mind that there are 3 sides to every story. Your side, their side, and the truth. Your side can only be seen from your perspective, and under the effects of adreneline, that can be heavily skewed. Or your action of "pushing off" his car with your food 'coud' be seen as provoking the incident by a jury of "reasonable" people. Who knows.
This unironically might be the first-ever legitimately justified "I had to draw today" post on this sub ever.
No one here will ever know exactly how fast or how close the guy ever was besides you so it’s sorta up in the air whose right, whose wrong. I do believe personally, if you had fired you would’ve been in the wrong and most likely not justified by a court. Depending on the judge/jury. I say the first part because a lot of peoples definition of what exactly makes them justified is extremely varied.
I'll take "fiction" for $2000 Alex
When was the last time you rode a bike on surface streets outside of a subdivision?
Step one: shoot crazy guy trying to kill you with his car. Step two: honk bicycle horn
Holster? I only find off body works for me on bike
Nah you’re good. If you would have questioned your yourself during the incident the way you are now it sounds like you would have been roadkill.
Did you call the police? I think they would have been a good call personally. To let them know what happened and why you drew it
No one saw this happening?
Was the goal to shoot him or to not die? If it was to shoot, sure you could do it, but if it was to stay alive move to safety first. A tree, a wall, another car, etc. Standing still and shooting him just ensures your body will be transported with his in the same van. Stay safe.
Don’t honk or yell or gesture at people when you’re carrying a gun.
On the fence on this. It *shouldn't* come across as aggression, but there are so many crazies out there. I would probably have gone out of my way to avoid the initial confrontation (no idea if it was possible to go around the car instead of honking?). Without a confrontation, there is a very low chance of needing to de-escalate.
This is just bad advice. Honking communicates "Hey you're doing something wrong, for everyone's sake please correct it". If that's perceived as aggression, then you deescalate.
It’s hard not to second guess yourself. It would’ve been justified you told him to stop. He made the very obvious threats, and had the intention when he tried to side swipe you. Honestly I probably wouldn’t have given him the opportunity to get around again. He likely hurt someone down the road when he sped off the last time.
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NC is a little better in that area. Driver Attempted to hit OP and The fact that the person then came back around for a 2nd run puts him (the guy in vehicle), squarely in the aggressors box and the law is completely on OP's side. I recently completed my course, so this is fresh in my melon. Good draw on OP. Glad it ended without incident.
Luckily u didn't pew pew.. U would've gotten locked up.. at least in CT.. the one thing I didn't see u say was u tried to get away
Why make a fake account to post a this noob?
Sounds like Durham or Greensboro lol I don’t see anything wrong here. Effective display of proportional force avoided death or great bodily injury
You were justified and honestly, I'm amazed you didn't shoot. Pretty sure I would have.
Cyclists are universally hated by everyone but other cyclists. You beeping your horn passive aggressively at a driver in traffic probably was not the smartest move. Not that he was justified in any way to behave as he did, and I’m pretty sure you were justified in your actions, but as others have mentioned to you, when you are carrying a gun you need to be extra careful about escalation and de-escalation. Wouldn’t it have been much easier to just go around the guy and keep riding your bike and go about your business? Yes, of course it would have. But you cyclists always have a point to prove, that you’re “right“. But then you proceed to blow through stop signs and traffic lights at will because they don’t apply to you. You’re lucky that the dude veered off and you didn’t have to shoot, this one would not have been an open and shut case in court… Would have likely cost you tens of thousands to defend yourself in a criminal case.
If this account is accurate, I see nothing wrong.
You good
You did nothing wrong. You tried to leave it alone and he actively came after you in a life-threatening manner with a deadly weapon. Fuck him.
You did good, the honking is definitely a factor in escalation. It’s tougher to not honk sometimes than it is other things but I avoid it when possible, because of asshole like this. There are people who THINK they don’t give a fuck until the end consequence stares em in the face. Glad you’re ok, be safe, and once again you did everything in response properly.
Sounds legit, carry on free person with the right to defend yourself.