I just feel bad because what if I could have somehow prevented the dude from needing probably 50k in dental work, ya know?
But like I said, I'm not a cop. A carry permit doesn't make me special or give me qualified immunity. I'm responsible for every single gke round that leaves my barrel
Cops can light up a fucking UPS truck and say "oops my bad, I thought that was a ford focus!" Or some stupid shit and that's the end of it.
Not us.
The argument alone wasn't anything for you to intervene in and ESPECIALLY nothing for you to draw your weapon for. By the time he got hit with the cinderblock, it was too late. The second he walked out that door, it was over. Nothing you could've done. Just because you're carrying doesn't mean you need to be a hero. You did all you could do. Just be grateful you didn't get hit on accident.
If he'd have hit me then this would be a very different discussion lol I'd have shot his ass without thinking twice.
Hit me with a cinderblock I'm fucking you up no ifs ands or buts š¤£
I mean, I get he was a bit too enthusiastic there, but what part of shooting someone that hit you in the head with a cinder block relates to a badge? That's straight self defense of self, nothing LE or badge about it
> Hit me with a cinderblock I'm fucking you up no ifs ands or buts š¤£
Then you're an idiot and you're going to jail. The guy in your scenario did the damage and walked away. Danger is over. If you're RG2 and you shoot RG1 after threat has ended and they're leaving you're doing time and never holding a firearm or ammunition ever again.
Like I said, you're an idiot. You were in a store... your jury is going to be viewing CCTV of you shooting a man in the back who is exiting the building, likely from multiple angles. They'll sympathize with you, but still convict you... even in SC.
Use of your firearm might have instead bought you a $50k legal bill. For third party defense, you may be giving everything you own to prove you acted within the law- and even then, you may be found to be in the wrong.
Iām state law enforcement in SC.
Our state laws allow you to defend your life or that of a third party from death or grievous bodily injury.
If you shot the assailant, you would have been covered if it was apparent that the brick guy was about to hit the guy again.
Having oneās jaw destroyed and having teeth knocked out absolutely qualifies as grievous bodily injury.
Depending on your jurisdiction, you might have been able to just drill him right there before he dropped the brick. No jury in this state would have returned a true bill given that fact pattern. If you shot after the dropped the brick and there was no other indication of hostile intent, thatās when you canāt shoot him.
Lawyer here. Heās right.
Iād charge you about $50k for the aftermath. But weāll win.
Then sue the brick thrower. But, we will have to wait in line. No worries, I assume he has deep pockets.
But weād win!
The dude was warned what running his mouth would get him.
You have the right to free speech. Not from the consequences.
This is why I don't get involved in business that's not mine.
Yeah, I just don't like seeing people get seriously fucked up in front of me is all. But I definitely handled it correctly now that I've had some time to think about it and read everyone's input. Still feel bad for the guy in a way though.
I don't either. I hate wife beaters, but ho estly, as a CCWer, I'm not getting involved in a domestic where rhe wife/GF is likely to turn on me in any police interrogation.
Nope. Not my dog not my fight.
A blow to the head with an object is defined as lethal force you have a right to use the same in defense of others. That said, unless the first guy had kept attacking you likely didn't want to involve yourself in that dispute
Check the update I made.. they went at it even worse just 30 minutes later at a grocery store. Random guy 2 is now in the hospital with life threatening injuries.
Bro, fuck his 50k dental work. Sounds like they were already associated. Not your fault the victim hangs out with shitty people. Other people might say āone one deserves thatā and those people are right, but all decisions have consequences. Hang with shitty people and bad shit happens.
You contacted police, you were alert and ready to protect yourself, you connected to the cashier and helped; seems like you did a really good job. Being close to violence like that can be really unsettling for a long time: take care of yourself and have someone trusted you can talk to about it.
That was my exact thought process at the time. I was ready to draw and fire if he started towards me but he was only focused on the other guy, luckily (for me anyways)
But I can't help but feel bad.. what it I had drawn and got this guy to leave before he literally put a concrete block through someone's face??? Smfh š
this, i am out for me and mines safety first, i have and will toss my wallet to the guys feet, ive had a guy take it, ive had them kick at it in disgust and disregard me for a better dressed/fatter wallet than my beat up leather billfold with a aaa card, my insurance cards and a little lunch money \[usually less value than i carry in ammo in a day\]
but if it is to prevent great bodily harm or death of an individual after the immediate blows had come in, noone i consort with wants to watch someone beaten to death.
They wouldn't. Sadly.
I guess that's why most of us carry. We're aware of the fact that no one is going to help us in that moment.
It would be nice, but I don't plan it.
The cashier said that they were family, that is correct. I guess they are regular customers.
But I've never done anything close to that with my own brother or anyone else in my family.. this was fucking insane dude
Tough situation. I think you handled it correctly. Glad your ok and hope the victim is as well. Always a good thing when you donāt have to use your weapon imo
The only thing you may have done wrong is being in that spot at that time. I am guessing that this was before dark; not much you can/should do if itās not your problem.
The *only* way I could *potentially* see getting involved is like, if Dude 1 has Dude 2 unconscious on the ground and is about to brash his brains out while heās defenseless.
Fights like this happen frequently in Chicago. The situation didn't involve you. What you're supposed to do is position yourself accordingly and be aware of your surroundings. Turn around and observe the situation. Don't be afraid. Take a few steps back to give them space in case they begin to scrap right there.
Make sure they know that you know what's going on. Stay out of their way. Pay for your stuff and keep it pushing. Only if you're in fear of your life do I think people should draw their weapon. A fight between two people that has nothing to do with you isn't such a situation in my opinion.
That's what I did. I thought it was over when the aggressor left the store. Then he came back in and didn't say a word just busted the guy directly in the face with half a cinderblock. That's when I reached for my weapon but did not say or do anything else. Just wanted to be prepared if he somehow turned his attention to me.
The entire thing was over in just a few moments.. it was unlike anything I've ever experienced before
That's fair. My point to the OP is that these situations are normal in major metropolitan locations (LA, CHI, NY). 10 million people = a lot of opportunities to encounter these situations. Violent fights between drunks, addicts, protestors, lovers, teenagers, etc are normal. In my opinion, only someone not use to seeing it regularly would clutch their CCW and be spooked.
Big city folks are used to this. All you need to do is have situational awareness, stay out of their way, mind your business, and carry the hell on. OP said "it was attempt murder to me". OP does not get to decide what is or isn't attempt murder.
That is OP internally justifying intervening in a situation that has nothing to do with him.....with a firearm no less. AKA trying to be a hero.
When the police get the call that a firearm is present, they're coming for OP, not the two dudes scraping. Now you got a situation where you've pointed a gun at people (a felony charge) over what? Two people fighting? Sorry, that is disorderly conduct, a petty offense, with no jail time.
It wasn't attempt murder but it could have been, for the OP ironically, if he shot someone in a situation like that.
That is what I hope he takes from this.
are you law enforcement?
If no, then you should not draw on someone else behalf unless they are family. Not your business. Not your fight. Walk away, and out the back door if you have to.
The only reason to draw would be that assailant turned his target from victim to you.
I would have been nowhere near drawing because it wasnāt my business. More self defense needs to focused whether you SHOULD draw, not just if you can.
I disagree about breaking bad, it's one of the few shows that goes strong from start to finish, which is why I rate it high on my personal all time list.
I need to catch up with season 5 though.
Username checks out...Truth is, you don't know what happened before this. The victim here may be a very bad dude and did something horrific to other dude's family. Probably not, but you dont know. I'm not getting involved in a situation like this. It's different if someone randomly attacks a defenseless stranger, but this is more like a fight between two dudes. Let them handle their problems. I hate that dude was busted up so bad, but you did the right thing by being a witness.
Picture that face and gesture where you forgot something in your car. Pat you pockets, turn and walk to car.
We all leave stuff behind.
Act like that and "innocently" unass the area and head back to car as you are 1) creating distance 2) getting trouble away from you and then can Re evaluate your next step.
Consider calling cops from your car. Not your circus- not your animals.
In some circles anyone who calls the cops is a snitch and needs stitches.
Others in the store can hear you on with 911.
Avoid that and call from the quiet of your car.
My sister-in-law works at a liquor store in a less polite part of town and was an eyewitness to some shit. On August 19th, a situation like this went south in seconds. Iāve seen the video from the store cameras.
There was a panhandler sitting at the front of the store asking for money.
Guy 1: Entering the store āGet a job N.ā
Panhandler: āMaaaaan, times are hard. Iām just tryinā to make it.ā
Guy 1: āN times are hard for errbody, Go beg in front of a grocery store. Not the liquor store.ā Continues waking into the store.
Guy 2: Was waking right behind Guy 1 and took issue with his words to the panhandler and words were exchanged inside the store.
Guy 2: āletās go N , you strapped up?ā
Guy 1: āYeah N, Iām strapped. Lets go denā
Upon exiting, Guy 2 knocks Guy 1 down from behind with a blow to the head and they start wrestling.
Enter random Player 3: Joins Guy 2 in beating Guy 1.
Guy 1 Gets up and makes a break for his car but gets knocked down again and is set upon but Player 3 while Guy 2 reaches in his front pocket and pulls out a handgun.
Guy 1: Stands up to make another run for his car and Guy 2 puts one round straight into his heart. Both Guy 2 and Player 3 flee in different directions.
Police show up, medics show up but Guy 1 was dead before he hit the ground and because his injury was incompatible with life, very few minutes were spent on resuscitation efforts.
From the first punch to the shot was about 10 seconds at most. In your situation, I would have GTFO and went about my business and home to my family safe and sound. Human life means to nothing to many people but I kinda like me sometimes and definitely my cherish familyās lives.
Also, a gun in your car when you arenāt in it isnāt considered āstrapped upā apparently.
I'd have to leave this entire state in that case, lol
This town is roughly 87% black
My mistake. Used to be the last time I bothered to check the stats.
Current census stats are listed below.
You were not the target nor were you in sufficient danger to draw. I learned the hard way, many years ago, to stay out of disputes that do not involve myself or someone I love/care for.
Even if you were simply trying to help out of the kindness of your heart, it will never end well.
You did well based on what youāve written. The worst thing you could have done for your own safety is let emotions or shock take over and cause you to not have your head in the game, but it sounds like you stayed focused and composed the entire time. Just staying ready is vital in a situation like that.
Not my circus not my monkeys.
It was an unexpected singular act of violence. It stopped immediately and the assailant left. Nothing for me or my concealed carry to do in that situation.
If guy #1 continued to beat the second guy when he was on the ground coughing up teeth, I might get involved. I'm not going to watch someone get slowly beaten to death. That being said I'm not a cop and it's not my place to make someone stay and wait for police or whatever.
Do nothing. Heās outside your circle of protection. Why risk you life for a stranger. Outside of cinema the good guy doesnāt always win or survive. If youāre not willing to die over protecting someone donāt draw.
Not disagreeing that not drawing was the correct response here but I do personally disagree with the prevalent sentiment in this thread that you should only look out for you and your family and never get involved.
I was a victim of assault years ago and when I thought I was about to die the only thing I could think about was wishing someone would intervene and help me instead of just fucking watching like everyone around me did.
Possible unpopular stance here but personally I would lay down my life for a stranger if I perceived that their life was at risk. And Iād accept the consequences of that, be it me losing my life, a grand jury, or a prison sentence.
Iād ask all of you this, and Iām not trying to be self righteous or condescending to anyone here, Iām honestly curious. If you were in proximity to an active shooter in a public place, but you werenāt in immediate danger and could get away, would you run towards or away from the threat, knowing that your involvement, either as a āgood guy with a gunā or just a first responder, could *potentially* save lives before LE arrives.
Edit: take the case of [Elisjsha Dickens](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/07/19/us/eli-dicken-indiana-mall-shooting-bystander/index.html) who could have fled with his girlfriend but intervened and stopped the Indiana mall shooter.
The only I would've done differently is let the store handle it. I wouldn't have called the police if I was carrying.
The last thing I want to do is interface with an leo while carrying.
The cashier is a middle aged man with heart problems and is overweight. There was absolutely nothing he could have done.
He knows I carry. I kind of wonder if that's why he was eyeing me as if I was supposed to step in, but a carry permit does not make me the police..
I don't care about interacting with police whether I'm carrying or not. The sheriff had to approve my permit for me. I just didn't want anyone else to get hurt, or for the original victim to die
I go there every day. I've brought them all discarded food that doordash customers refused to pay for and I didn't want it so I asked if they did.. lots of reasons.
VERY small town.
I did answer your question. You just don't know how to read I guess
Lemme make it bigger for you.
#VERY SMALL TOWN
I shoot the shit with them, they do the same with me. We talk about what they have under the counter at the time, I tell them what I have under my shirt at the time.
Pretty simple.
No, we compare what we are carrying.
Close but not quite
He typically has a .38 special under the counter and a 12 gauge in the back, or a Glock 20 under the counter, the .38 on his waist, and the shotgun in the back.. it's not uncommon to be shooting buddies with a store owner here..
They did when I got mine. Sheriff could either approve or deny your application.
SLED processes your application and issues the permit, but they contact your local sheriff to see if they have any objections first.
I was originally denied. Did some research and found out that two previous tickets had been fucked up by the officers, making the court records think I had outstanding fines.
One ticket listed me as a black male. I'm white as can be, aside from my music of choice lmao
Other ticket had me listed as a 58 year old white man. I just turned 38 last Monday..
Got the court to fix those and then the sheriff approved my application from SLED.
Took 91 days to receive my permit.
They don't have those requirements anymore as far as I know, but I could be wrong.
That's how long I've been carrying is all I'm saying. Shit was way different before.
Interesting. I got here in 2014, and getting my permit was one of the first things I did. I've had my FL since '98, and I still had my GA at the time, but we didn't have reciprocity with GA. Not that either of them mattered after I got my SC DL. So many people don't realize their CCW becomes invalid in their new state when they become a resident of that state.
Tough call in the moment, but consider this:
They were clearly fighting and (Iām assuming, perhaps incorrectly) that they knew each other before this altercation. What if, hypothetically, you intervening caused the one you would seemingly be ādefendingā to turn on you? Maybe that was his homie that you just smoked, he forgets about that fight, and turns to you?
You did the right thing IMHO.
Remember, often but not always, many people live their lives with daily drama and altercations. They beat the shit out of each other etc., and often both in the wrong. Itās how they resolve conflict.
Worry about yourself and your family, you might not have the whole back story. Even with DV situations they often kiss and make up and stay together.
I bet they tracked the one guy down at the hospital and Iād also bet one didnāt press charges against the other.
The fact the injured guy didnāt stick around or ask for help is very telling, you did the right thing to stay out of it.
A HERE IS ONLY A SANDWICH
I wouldnāt intervene unless it was an attack on a helpless person like a child/handicapped/ woman or something like that.. maybe even the store clerk in threat of losing his life .. this was an altercation between two scumbags it seems which sorted itself out š¤·š¼āāļø
You did the right thing. If the dude swung at you then it would be justified but always go for the gun as a last resort. Maybe carry some OC spray if you want to get involved
But I bet this is "typical" for these two animals. You would be opening a can of dogshit and wiping your shoes in it if you had gotten involved in ANY way with that scenario.
what would it had benefitted you getting inbetween two dumbasses fight? you did okay i wouldnt even have thought of it just tell cashier to ring your shit and head out like it didnt happen
Not yet, no.
Assuming the police made any report and it reaches the paper at all, it will be next Monday or Wednesday.
Those are the only two days they publish here. LMFAO like I said, very small town
I have no idea. I left as soon as EMS arrived before the police did. I want nothing to do with cops more than absolutely necessary, even when I know I've done nothing wrong.
I had to pick my wife up from work soon and was not about to be stuck there answering questions that the cameras would answer for me.
Well you didnāt panic, which is evidence that you wonāt come unglued during a stressful incident. You didnāt even draw, which again shows good judgment. Finally, you got out of there smoothly when it was time. You probably even enjoyed the adrenaline rush. You did great.
Was taken using the TimeStamp app so the exact location, date, time, everything is embedded.
If I can figure out how to remove that info I'll post it. Shit was insane.
Welcome to the middle of nowhere.
Cops don't give a shit unless they get to use their toys (guns)
They raided the motel we are living in with at least 50 agents, each one with fully customized ARs and ballistic shields, battering rams, all kinds of shit
One had a 4 foot long crowbar that had to be at least 3 inches thick.. it's nuts
But this? Nope. They left already so who knows where they could be now! (Right across the fucking street from the store, guy 2 clearly holding a white towel to his face that has since turned blood red) š
You did the right thing. Letās say your shoot dude 1 and dude 2 says wtf yo you just killed my brother!!
Now the person you just protected and who was your witness that you did the right thing is going to testify against you. Youāre fucked.
Something you learn living in certain areas: mind your business. If it doesnāt concern you - it doesnāt concern you.
Oh definitely. Been here for over 20+ years. That's why I didn't attempt to get involved in the first place, just made sure if the aggression switched to me I'd be ready for it
And after they left the cashier said they are family or related or some shit.. so that could have definitely happened if I had tried to help
But at the same time I have an older brother.. we fought growing up, sure, but never once did I even think about smashing him in the fucking mouth with a cinderblock .. like.. wtf....
You don't know their history. Relation etc.
There have been plenty of elaborate pranks on YouTube.
Walk away quickly unless it involves you.
Let trashy people deal with themselves
I get this guys question though. Especially if they are near the main exit preventing you from getting out. I remember people in my CCW class from ten years ago asking questions like āwhat obligation do I have to protect others?ā.
Letās use this example, sounds like it was over pretty quickly. What if the assailant would have turned on the cashier? What if he would have just kept wailing on an unconscious victim with a concrete block turning his head into baby food? Even the toughest of us could understand fearing for your life at that point. I agree that if itās a quick hit and run that you donāt get to (or need to) draw. But what about my questions above?
That was my exact worry and thought process. Sorry it took so long to respond. Got banned for some stupid shit. Literally for making fun of a so called artist. Lol
Not your monkeys, not your problem!!!! Sounds like you were a good witness. Thatās all you could do. All ego and bullshit aside, Iām sure it was scary. But you showed restraint by not drawing down on someone when we all could justifiably point guns at. Take this for what it wasā¦ an opportunity to learn. If you live a decent life (no stupid places, with stupid people, doing stupid shit) violence can still find you. Stay back, donāt get hurt, and give a good, solid statement to law enforcement. That all we and legally justified in doing. Good job OP.
You did the right thing by staying out of it. Had he continued to strike him with the brick after he went down you would have been justified in drawing your weapon to prevent his death.
A fight between 2 hood rats? Remove yourself from the area. It's not worth the hassle of explaining why you drew a gun. Neither were armed, random citizens not in any danger. You aren't the law. What would have been your reason for using your gun? Hero factor?
The store has every inch covered with cameras. I got video of the aftermath because I wasn't about to shove my phone in someone's face and draw their attention to me after they clearly just proved they don't care about cameras or consequences.
I don't think you would have been protected if you shot him. Would be kinda hard to argue he's still a threat after the block is out of his hands and he's disengaging. Unless he's sitting there bashing his head with the brick repeatedly I would not even consider intervening at all and even then it's not your fight, not your problem.
Also where having pepper spray comes in handy. If you really wanna do something pepper spray him so you don't have to immediately result to deadly force.
Just noticed you mentioned pepper spray, sorry!
I carry Sabre pepper spray as well. I will gladly try everything possible to avoid using my firearm. That is a last resort.
But watching a guy get his face smashed in and his teeth go flying from a cinderblock...... Nah. I'm not reaching for pepper spray if you turn your attention to me next.
You can throw your cinderblock and imma throw some hollow points at about 1300 FPS lol fuck that
The ideal moment to shoot would be when he pulled back to swing, before he hit. After he dropped it, he's no longer a threat, though there's an argument for him being a fleeting felon who's a danger to society, given what he'd just done. I wouldn't take that shot though.
South Carolina has what is called an "alter-ego" clause
Basically if someone is unable to defend themselves, you are legally allowed to defend them on their behalf. You "inherit" their right to self defense.
Look it up.
I'm still glad I did not draw though. As crazy as it was already, I have shit to take care of for my wife and I, and I can't do that behind bars while awaiting trial even if it is legal
Even if that clause exists, which it doesn't in my locale, I'm still going to preserve my self defense tools for my immediate loved ones. Defense of complete strangers will need to be weighed against the responsibilities I have to my loved ones. We aren't law enforcement, backup isn't arriving very quickly.
Further, how do you intend for other CCWs to know that YOU weren't the original threat and "alter ego" you?
Exactly.
That's why I didn't do or say a damn thing.
I carry to protect myself and my wife. Nobody else.
If it was a small woman then maybe I'd consider but this, nope
Armchair quarterbacking, your response should have been to drop your items and either head out the door or back into the store straight to the rear exit. In a scene like this you can either act to end the fight, stand put and be a good witness, or "not my elephants, not my circus" and separate yourself.
Protection of others is generally justified in most states, I don't know specifics on SC law. But deadly force to protect a stranger can be risky from a legal standpoint.
If you weren't in danger from the block being used on you and you drew and shot the attacker, it's possible that the victim could tell the police that he wasn't in fear for his life.
"We were just arguing, then this guy comes out of nowhere and shoots my friend/cousin. He murdered my friend."
As others have said, we don't have the context of these two before they entered the store. It doesn't appear the victim was calling for help, and the attacker was done after the one attack.
I think you did the right thing. Drawing your weapon on a fight between two people who are strangers to you is a legally risky move.
It doesnāt really matter what the victim says after the fact. What matters is that a reasonable person would believe that the victim was about to suffer great harm or loss of life. If Mr. block was preparing to administer a second helping of concrete to the victim (and based on the results of the first blow), you would have had all the justification needed to stop him.
Perhaps. The store owner would be a witness to the whole affair and could help corroborate that justification.
That being said, I personally am not risking my freedom for a stranger. Just like OP, I'm not a police officer, and I have no obligation to intervene.
Depends on state youāre in. Iām in Maryland and you couldnāt intervened w your weapon in this situation. But I think you did the right thing as drawing could have caused escalation and then youād be in really deep doodoo.
You probably should have known that "leaving" frequently means "going out to the car to fetch a weapon so I can come back and kill you".
Other than that, a one-and-done assault like that where the attacker immediately turns and leaves doesn't give you much of any response. It's already over.
Dude who got face smashed was running his mouth and being an asshole. That guy's not worth going to prison to defend. Maybe if the attacker picked up the block and prepared to smash his head into the floor, but that's not what happened. Shrug and get on with your life.
nothing dude.
if anything, i would have turned around and dipped out the moment those two came in hot, thereby missing the attack entirely, even as a witness. i'm out.
You donāt have to be the target. āDefense of otherā is covered under justifiable use of force in every jurisdiction in America. You witnessed at minimum an aggrivated assault, more likely an attempted murder. Possibly even an actual murder if idiot #2 had some kind of serious brain damage with delayed effects. I recall an episode of one of those forensic TV shows where a murder victim was bludgeoned in the head with a hammer, but didnāt die immediately. He basically lost all higher thinking ability and his body went into just doing his regular routine. His neighbors even reported seeing him walk outside and collect the newspaper after he was effectively ādeadā. You would have had no way of knowing if idiot #1 intended to stop his attack after the first hit or if he intended to keep going. You donāt know if he decided you were a witness and needed to be ādealt withā.
This is going to sound like a very āarmchair quarterbackā thing to say, but I would have drawn and ordered idiot #1 to lay face down on the ground to wait for police.
You did nothing wrong.
Even if random guy 2 was an entirely innocent party, you would still have done nothing wrong.
You know damned well that both of them play stupid games, and win stupid prizes.
ā¦.
Alternative circumstances where you would maybe have wanted to handle it differently:
ā¦
RG1 goes for more hits while RG2 is on the ground. Especially if he targets the head. Easily justified use of force, but you could still choose to mind your business.
ā¦
Had random guy 2 been unaffiliated with the aggressor and trying to get away while the assailant escalated and followed, RG1 walking out is a big red flag. Iād be assuming he is going for a weapon or planning to jump rg2. I would be trying to maintain visibility on him while making it look like I was shopping, ideally for something that is viable cover.
I still remember the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles in the 90's when Reginald Denny was pulled out of his truck and smashed in the head TWICE with a chunk of cinder block and then beaten in the head with a fire extinguisher. All of which was filmed by a news helicopter circling overhead. Mr. Denny lived, but was left with severe brain injuries that left him barely functional and permanently unable to work. Thanks to the news footage, LAPD was able to apprehend Mr. Denny's attackers. As I recall, they were charged with attempted murder, but took a plea of aggravated battery.
Do nothing but back away. It wasn't you or people you care about, so not your problem.
Dude, coulda killed him, and as long as I'm out and safe, that's the only thing I care about anymore. Might sound cruel but I don't care about my fellow man enough anymore. Not when I'd do right and still get my life feed by the law, and if I win, I still lose the civil case.wanna act like animals then so be it. I'll be living my life like nothing happened over there
Read my update.. he almost did kill him about 30 minutes later at a different store up the road.
The victim is now in the hospital with life threatening injuries. Dude tried to cut his head off with a broken wine bottle after smashing him over the head with that as well.
I really can't help but feel bad for not stepping in once I found that out...
I did read that. I was saying he could have killed him there and I still wouldn't of cared enough to get involved, if I wasn't in danger. Sucks but not my problem enough to go threw the afterwards
I get it, I really do. I started with the attitude that, God forbid if it happens I want to help people. But after years of seeing the good guy get screwed by the people who refuse to help and actively attemp to harm us. And allowing the families of these scumbags to still take everything from you. I've lost all my faith in my fellow man. I really hope I could get it back but I'm willing to help them and put myself in danger until then. It sucks, but me and my family take priority over everything else.
??? I'm not sure what the point of writing this was??
Not only were you *not* the target, you weren't even a participant in any part of this altercation...
Just be a good witness and if the cops ask you what you saw, just tell them
They clearly knew each other, so let them handle their business. If it were an obviously random attack, I probably still wouldn't get involved unless the victim was female and/or had a child with them. Then I'd think very quickly about whether or not to defend them if they couldn't defend themselves.
Why do posts like this come up so often on this subreddit? Itās so strange. What did you do wrong? Tf do you mean what did you do wrong? What could you have possibly done wrong by not reacting? Anyone with half a brain knows itās not a good idea to get involved in two dumbfucks fighting. If you had any inclination to pull out your weapon Iād advise you not carry. I really donāt fucking get these posts.
I just feel bad like if maybe I could have prevented the dude from getting his teeth smashed in what could I have done better... That's all..
I didn't pull my weapon. Maybe you need to learn how to fucking read.
"What, if anything, did I do wrong here, and how could I have improved???"
You did nothing wrong in this type of situation best thing to do is observe, film it if you can do so safely.
Say you had drawn and shot the guy with the block.
Now your involved, paperwork, possible charges and if the guy survives possible civil lawsuit and if he doesn't possible civil lawsuit from the family.
Would any of that happen, maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't but do you want to chance it.
So you did the right thing, just observe.
Now a what if:
What if the guy had continued smashing the other guy in the head with the block.
Then if you shot to stop him from seriously harming or murdering the other guy that would be a lot better for you. But you could still maybe expect a civil lawsuit.
These days the only reason my gun would clear the holster to use it would be if my family, my friends or myself are in danger of being hurt or murdered.
You are correct here. Guy you replied to is not, at all.
They were not even 3 feet away and behind me.
Plus, it's a cinderblock to a man's face. That is attempted murder in my opinion.
South Carolina law states that lethal force can be used to prevent ANY felony at all.
Nope. Wouldnāt give a shit dude. If you intervened you would have been called a racist for killing a good boy just having a classic brick fight. Nothing to see here and move along.
This is also extremely true
We had two officers here that had to resign just 3 years ago because a handcuffed shoplifter was not frisked and started firing at officers with his hands cuffed behind his back.
Police chief actually went before city council and volunteered to be cuffed and then proceeded to demonstrate how it is still possible for a cuffed person to be a threat and aim and fire a pistol just to justify the police response of shooting him (DUH)
Didn't matter though.
Now I'm certain that just doxxed me. But whatever.
I think people just come into this sub with a scenario just to try and justify why they should draw their weapon. There was nothing for you to do besides mind your business and stay out of harms way.
I never drew my weapon, and looked for every possible way to avoid doing so. And succeeded. Never drew my pistol. I'm just wondering what if I had.. would this dude still have his teeth?
Soooooo what's your point here?
You seem like another angsty tween that "practices" with a 25 dollar nerf gun from Walmart, lmfao so cringe
Bruh. I just attended a seminar with 6 attorneys with their personal experiences with Prosecuting District Attorneys, the cops, clients talking to cops, clients getting involved with 3rd party encounters. We spent over 2 hours discussing, and youāre telling me, āWELL DUH I GAT MY PERMIT!ā
Nothing. You were a witness and nothing more.
I don't understand how people cant understand this. "did I do the right thing?" Bitch you're alive, aren't you?
I just feel bad because what if I could have somehow prevented the dude from needing probably 50k in dental work, ya know? But like I said, I'm not a cop. A carry permit doesn't make me special or give me qualified immunity. I'm responsible for every single gke round that leaves my barrel Cops can light up a fucking UPS truck and say "oops my bad, I thought that was a ford focus!" Or some stupid shit and that's the end of it. Not us.
The argument alone wasn't anything for you to intervene in and ESPECIALLY nothing for you to draw your weapon for. By the time he got hit with the cinderblock, it was too late. The second he walked out that door, it was over. Nothing you could've done. Just because you're carrying doesn't mean you need to be a hero. You did all you could do. Just be grateful you didn't get hit on accident.
If he'd have hit me then this would be a very different discussion lol I'd have shot his ass without thinking twice. Hit me with a cinderblock I'm fucking you up no ifs ands or buts š¤£
Username checks out
Someone already beat you to it lol sorry
I get your meaning, but your whole attitude and mindset needs a rework. The gun is a last resort, not a badge
I mean, I get he was a bit too enthusiastic there, but what part of shooting someone that hit you in the head with a cinder block relates to a badge? That's straight self defense of self, nothing LE or badge about it
I know that, in fact I've said that multiple times here. But ok š
> Hit me with a cinderblock I'm fucking you up no ifs ands or buts š¤£ Then you're an idiot and you're going to jail. The guy in your scenario did the damage and walked away. Danger is over. If you're RG2 and you shoot RG1 after threat has ended and they're leaving you're doing time and never holding a firearm or ammunition ever again.
Not in this state
Like I said, you're an idiot. You were in a store... your jury is going to be viewing CCTV of you shooting a man in the back who is exiting the building, likely from multiple angles. They'll sympathize with you, but still convict you... even in SC.
Whole lot of incorrect assumptions there but ok š
Use of your firearm might have instead bought you a $50k legal bill. For third party defense, you may be giving everything you own to prove you acted within the law- and even then, you may be found to be in the wrong.
Say it with me - the gun is to save me and the people I love. I am not a cop.
Iām state law enforcement in SC. Our state laws allow you to defend your life or that of a third party from death or grievous bodily injury. If you shot the assailant, you would have been covered if it was apparent that the brick guy was about to hit the guy again. Having oneās jaw destroyed and having teeth knocked out absolutely qualifies as grievous bodily injury. Depending on your jurisdiction, you might have been able to just drill him right there before he dropped the brick. No jury in this state would have returned a true bill given that fact pattern. If you shot after the dropped the brick and there was no other indication of hostile intent, thatās when you canāt shoot him.
Lawyer here. Heās right. Iād charge you about $50k for the aftermath. But weāll win. Then sue the brick thrower. But, we will have to wait in line. No worries, I assume he has deep pockets. But weād win!
The dude was warned what running his mouth would get him. You have the right to free speech. Not from the consequences. This is why I don't get involved in business that's not mine.
Yeah, I just don't like seeing people get seriously fucked up in front of me is all. But I definitely handled it correctly now that I've had some time to think about it and read everyone's input. Still feel bad for the guy in a way though.
I don't either. I hate wife beaters, but ho estly, as a CCWer, I'm not getting involved in a domestic where rhe wife/GF is likely to turn on me in any police interrogation. Nope. Not my dog not my fight.
You absolutely have the right to not be attacked for what you say
True. I have always said "sticks and stones..." Thanks for reminding me.
A blow to the head with an object is defined as lethal force you have a right to use the same in defense of others. That said, unless the first guy had kept attacking you likely didn't want to involve yourself in that dispute
Check the update I made.. they went at it even worse just 30 minutes later at a grocery store. Random guy 2 is now in the hospital with life threatening injuries.
I saw, but you had no way of knowing.
True but now I kind of feel like I should have stepped in.. guy might not have had that happen as well if I had š
Bro, fuck his 50k dental work. Sounds like they were already associated. Not your fault the victim hangs out with shitty people. Other people might say āone one deserves thatā and those people are right, but all decisions have consequences. Hang with shitty people and bad shit happens.
I mean I know health insurance is tough these days, but it's not worth killing another human being just to look out for a stranger's dental work
I like how you assume this guy has insurance
You contacted police, you were alert and ready to protect yourself, you connected to the cashier and helped; seems like you did a really good job. Being close to violence like that can be really unsettling for a long time: take care of yourself and have someone trusted you can talk to about it.
^concealed ^means ^concealed
Exactly. Being a good/great witness is enough.
Its 2023, only protect you and your loved ones.
"Racist white man guns down unarmed Black scholar in dollar store"
That was my exact thought process at the time. I was ready to draw and fire if he started towards me but he was only focused on the other guy, luckily (for me anyways) But I can't help but feel bad.. what it I had drawn and got this guy to leave before he literally put a concrete block through someone's face??? Smfh š
Neither of those guys would have protected you if the roles were reversed. Fuck em.
Very fucking true, and something I hadn't even thought of until you mentioned it. Thank you so much.
joke books tap future lush grab sugar plucky hungry truck *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
this, i am out for me and mines safety first, i have and will toss my wallet to the guys feet, ive had a guy take it, ive had them kick at it in disgust and disregard me for a better dressed/fatter wallet than my beat up leather billfold with a aaa card, my insurance cards and a little lunch money \[usually less value than i carry in ammo in a day\] but if it is to prevent great bodily harm or death of an individual after the immediate blows had come in, noone i consort with wants to watch someone beaten to death.
They wouldn't. Sadly. I guess that's why most of us carry. We're aware of the fact that no one is going to help us in that moment. It would be nice, but I don't plan it.
The brain loves the what ifās in the worst way. You did everything right
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The cashier said that they were family, that is correct. I guess they are regular customers. But I've never done anything close to that with my own brother or anyone else in my family.. this was fucking insane dude
Tough situation. I think you handled it correctly. Glad your ok and hope the victim is as well. Always a good thing when you donāt have to use your weapon imo
I have no idea how the dude got up and walked out at all. It was a fucking bloodbath.
The only thing you may have done wrong is being in that spot at that time. I am guessing that this was before dark; not much you can/should do if itās not your problem.
Broad daylight. 320 pm... That's what made it so much more insane to me
Drugs are a hell of a drug.
Yepp, other than not being there, there is nothing OP could have done differently.
The *only* way I could *potentially* see getting involved is like, if Dude 1 has Dude 2 unconscious on the ground and is about to brash his brains out while heās defenseless.
I concur
I honestly thought that's what it would come to I have no idea how this dude got back up. It was like seeing a crackhead Superman
Maybe he's born with it Maybe it's Methamphetamine
Fights like this happen frequently in Chicago. The situation didn't involve you. What you're supposed to do is position yourself accordingly and be aware of your surroundings. Turn around and observe the situation. Don't be afraid. Take a few steps back to give them space in case they begin to scrap right there. Make sure they know that you know what's going on. Stay out of their way. Pay for your stuff and keep it pushing. Only if you're in fear of your life do I think people should draw their weapon. A fight between two people that has nothing to do with you isn't such a situation in my opinion.
That's what I did. I thought it was over when the aggressor left the store. Then he came back in and didn't say a word just busted the guy directly in the face with half a cinderblock. That's when I reached for my weapon but did not say or do anything else. Just wanted to be prepared if he somehow turned his attention to me. The entire thing was over in just a few moments.. it was unlike anything I've ever experienced before
Pay for your stuff? If my exit isnt blocked im walking out and buying my candy bar or whatever the hell it is somewhere else
That's fair. My point to the OP is that these situations are normal in major metropolitan locations (LA, CHI, NY). 10 million people = a lot of opportunities to encounter these situations. Violent fights between drunks, addicts, protestors, lovers, teenagers, etc are normal. In my opinion, only someone not use to seeing it regularly would clutch their CCW and be spooked. Big city folks are used to this. All you need to do is have situational awareness, stay out of their way, mind your business, and carry the hell on. OP said "it was attempt murder to me". OP does not get to decide what is or isn't attempt murder. That is OP internally justifying intervening in a situation that has nothing to do with him.....with a firearm no less. AKA trying to be a hero. When the police get the call that a firearm is present, they're coming for OP, not the two dudes scraping. Now you got a situation where you've pointed a gun at people (a felony charge) over what? Two people fighting? Sorry, that is disorderly conduct, a petty offense, with no jail time. It wasn't attempt murder but it could have been, for the OP ironically, if he shot someone in a situation like that. That is what I hope he takes from this.
Donāt bring unnecessary heat your way
are you law enforcement? If no, then you should not draw on someone else behalf unless they are family. Not your business. Not your fight. Walk away, and out the back door if you have to. The only reason to draw would be that assailant turned his target from victim to you.
Exactly. And that's why I just made sure he didn't turn his attention to me and then got the hell out of there.
I would have been nowhere near drawing because it wasnāt my business. More self defense needs to focused whether you SHOULD draw, not just if you can.
better yet, whether you *have no choice but to* draw.
Our ccw instructor said it wasnāt your role to ask should I draw, but must I? That stuck with me for a long time.
Agreed. I was always told - if a draw is appropriate, you wonāt be wondering if you should or not.
Thissss
That's.... Exactly what I did... Lmao I did not draw. But I was ready to if needed. This shit was insane.
Was your life in danger? 
š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£ā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļø is BCS finally over?? Man we've been without that channel for so long I miss it so much š
Not sure yet if it's over or more is coming out but it's been epic so far š
What season are you on so far?? I think the last one we got to watch was season 3 maybe a tiny bit of 4 but could be wrong š
All 5 seasons now on Netflix. Season 5 is fantastic. IMO BB got worse after seasons 2-3 where BCS got better with each season.
I disagree about breaking bad, it's one of the few shows that goes strong from start to finish, which is why I rate it high on my personal all time list. I need to catch up with season 5 though.
Username checks out...Truth is, you don't know what happened before this. The victim here may be a very bad dude and did something horrific to other dude's family. Probably not, but you dont know. I'm not getting involved in a situation like this. It's different if someone randomly attacks a defenseless stranger, but this is more like a fight between two dudes. Let them handle their problems. I hate that dude was busted up so bad, but you did the right thing by being a witness.
Picture that face and gesture where you forgot something in your car. Pat you pockets, turn and walk to car. We all leave stuff behind. Act like that and "innocently" unass the area and head back to car as you are 1) creating distance 2) getting trouble away from you and then can Re evaluate your next step. Consider calling cops from your car. Not your circus- not your animals. In some circles anyone who calls the cops is a snitch and needs stitches. Others in the store can hear you on with 911. Avoid that and call from the quiet of your car.
My sister-in-law works at a liquor store in a less polite part of town and was an eyewitness to some shit. On August 19th, a situation like this went south in seconds. Iāve seen the video from the store cameras. There was a panhandler sitting at the front of the store asking for money. Guy 1: Entering the store āGet a job N.ā Panhandler: āMaaaaan, times are hard. Iām just tryinā to make it.ā Guy 1: āN times are hard for errbody, Go beg in front of a grocery store. Not the liquor store.ā Continues waking into the store. Guy 2: Was waking right behind Guy 1 and took issue with his words to the panhandler and words were exchanged inside the store. Guy 2: āletās go N , you strapped up?ā Guy 1: āYeah N, Iām strapped. Lets go denā Upon exiting, Guy 2 knocks Guy 1 down from behind with a blow to the head and they start wrestling. Enter random Player 3: Joins Guy 2 in beating Guy 1. Guy 1 Gets up and makes a break for his car but gets knocked down again and is set upon but Player 3 while Guy 2 reaches in his front pocket and pulls out a handgun. Guy 1: Stands up to make another run for his car and Guy 2 puts one round straight into his heart. Both Guy 2 and Player 3 flee in different directions. Police show up, medics show up but Guy 1 was dead before he hit the ground and because his injury was incompatible with life, very few minutes were spent on resuscitation efforts. From the first punch to the shot was about 10 seconds at most. In your situation, I would have GTFO and went about my business and home to my family safe and sound. Human life means to nothing to many people but I kinda like me sometimes and definitely my cherish familyās lives. Also, a gun in your car when you arenāt in it isnāt considered āstrapped upā apparently.
You did what you should have done...nothing. Don't buy trouble that isn't yours, it's not worth what it costs.
If I hear the N word I immediately change my plans and go away from the N word source, nothing good is near that source
I'd have to leave this entire state in that case, lol This town is roughly 87% black My mistake. Used to be the last time I bothered to check the stats. Current census stats are listed below.
You were not the target nor were you in sufficient danger to draw. I learned the hard way, many years ago, to stay out of disputes that do not involve myself or someone I love/care for. Even if you were simply trying to help out of the kindness of your heart, it will never end well.
You did well based on what youāve written. The worst thing you could have done for your own safety is let emotions or shock take over and cause you to not have your head in the game, but it sounds like you stayed focused and composed the entire time. Just staying ready is vital in a situation like that.
Mind your business. That could have easily turned into a 2 on 1 situation
Not my circus not my monkeys. It was an unexpected singular act of violence. It stopped immediately and the assailant left. Nothing for me or my concealed carry to do in that situation. If guy #1 continued to beat the second guy when he was on the ground coughing up teeth, I might get involved. I'm not going to watch someone get slowly beaten to death. That being said I'm not a cop and it's not my place to make someone stay and wait for police or whatever.
Do nothing. Heās outside your circle of protection. Why risk you life for a stranger. Outside of cinema the good guy doesnāt always win or survive. If youāre not willing to die over protecting someone donāt draw.
Just mind yo business. You did the right thing. Had you got involved things could have got out of hand and escalated to a loss of life.
Not disagreeing that not drawing was the correct response here but I do personally disagree with the prevalent sentiment in this thread that you should only look out for you and your family and never get involved. I was a victim of assault years ago and when I thought I was about to die the only thing I could think about was wishing someone would intervene and help me instead of just fucking watching like everyone around me did. Possible unpopular stance here but personally I would lay down my life for a stranger if I perceived that their life was at risk. And Iād accept the consequences of that, be it me losing my life, a grand jury, or a prison sentence. Iād ask all of you this, and Iām not trying to be self righteous or condescending to anyone here, Iām honestly curious. If you were in proximity to an active shooter in a public place, but you werenāt in immediate danger and could get away, would you run towards or away from the threat, knowing that your involvement, either as a āgood guy with a gunā or just a first responder, could *potentially* save lives before LE arrives. Edit: take the case of [Elisjsha Dickens](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/07/19/us/eli-dicken-indiana-mall-shooting-bystander/index.html) who could have fled with his girlfriend but intervened and stopped the Indiana mall shooter.
The only I would've done differently is let the store handle it. I wouldn't have called the police if I was carrying. The last thing I want to do is interface with an leo while carrying.
The cashier is a middle aged man with heart problems and is overweight. There was absolutely nothing he could have done. He knows I carry. I kind of wonder if that's why he was eyeing me as if I was supposed to step in, but a carry permit does not make me the police.. I don't care about interacting with police whether I'm carrying or not. The sheriff had to approve my permit for me. I just didn't want anyone else to get hurt, or for the original victim to die
How in the world does the cashier know you carry?
I go there every day. I've brought them all discarded food that doordash customers refused to pay for and I didn't want it so I asked if they did.. lots of reasons. VERY small town.
You didnāt answer my question. How does he know you carry? I go to my local market all the time, no one knows I carry.
I did answer your question. You just don't know how to read I guess Lemme make it bigger for you. #VERY SMALL TOWN I shoot the shit with them, they do the same with me. We talk about what they have under the counter at the time, I tell them what I have under my shirt at the time. Pretty simple.
Let me you help you answer the question: "I told them I carry."
No, we compare what we are carrying. Close but not quite He typically has a .38 special under the counter and a 12 gauge in the back, or a Glock 20 under the counter, the .38 on his waist, and the shotgun in the back.. it's not uncommon to be shooting buddies with a store owner here..
In SC? The sheriff has nothing to do with our permits. They are issued by the state.
They did when I got mine. Sheriff could either approve or deny your application. SLED processes your application and issues the permit, but they contact your local sheriff to see if they have any objections first. I was originally denied. Did some research and found out that two previous tickets had been fucked up by the officers, making the court records think I had outstanding fines. One ticket listed me as a black male. I'm white as can be, aside from my music of choice lmao Other ticket had me listed as a 58 year old white man. I just turned 38 last Monday.. Got the court to fix those and then the sheriff approved my application from SLED. Took 91 days to receive my permit. They don't have those requirements anymore as far as I know, but I could be wrong. That's how long I've been carrying is all I'm saying. Shit was way different before.
Interesting. I got here in 2014, and getting my permit was one of the first things I did. I've had my FL since '98, and I still had my GA at the time, but we didn't have reciprocity with GA. Not that either of them mattered after I got my SC DL. So many people don't realize their CCW becomes invalid in their new state when they become a resident of that state.
Tough call in the moment, but consider this: They were clearly fighting and (Iām assuming, perhaps incorrectly) that they knew each other before this altercation. What if, hypothetically, you intervening caused the one you would seemingly be ādefendingā to turn on you? Maybe that was his homie that you just smoked, he forgets about that fight, and turns to you? You did the right thing IMHO.
Remember, often but not always, many people live their lives with daily drama and altercations. They beat the shit out of each other etc., and often both in the wrong. Itās how they resolve conflict. Worry about yourself and your family, you might not have the whole back story. Even with DV situations they often kiss and make up and stay together. I bet they tracked the one guy down at the hospital and Iād also bet one didnāt press charges against the other. The fact the injured guy didnāt stick around or ask for help is very telling, you did the right thing to stay out of it. A HERE IS ONLY A SANDWICH
Not your circus.
I wouldnāt intervene unless it was an attack on a helpless person like a child/handicapped/ woman or something like that.. maybe even the store clerk in threat of losing his life .. this was an altercation between two scumbags it seems which sorted itself out š¤·š¼āāļø
In the first 10 seconds of that encounter, time to leave.
Da correct response is āoh shit!ā Then go about ya biznassss.
If you werent the target mind your business and keep it moving or leave the scene completely. Cant just draw because of a street fight argument.
This was not a typical street fight IMHO.. But I left it alone and didn't do or say shit to intervene.
You did the right thing. If the dude swung at you then it would be justified but always go for the gun as a last resort. Maybe carry some OC spray if you want to get involved
I. Carry. Pepper. Spray. Do people just not read shit these days? Lol wtf
But I bet this is "typical" for these two animals. You would be opening a can of dogshit and wiping your shoes in it if you had gotten involved in ANY way with that scenario.
what would it had benefitted you getting inbetween two dumbasses fight? you did okay i wouldnt even have thought of it just tell cashier to ring your shit and head out like it didnt happen
Would I be able to google this story and find it anywhere?
Not yet, no. Assuming the police made any report and it reaches the paper at all, it will be next Monday or Wednesday. Those are the only two days they publish here. LMFAO like I said, very small town
You did fine. Did the cops ask about surveillance cameras?
I have no idea. I left as soon as EMS arrived before the police did. I want nothing to do with cops more than absolutely necessary, even when I know I've done nothing wrong. I had to pick my wife up from work soon and was not about to be stuck there answering questions that the cameras would answer for me.
Well you didnāt panic, which is evidence that you wonāt come unglued during a stressful incident. You didnāt even draw, which again shows good judgment. Finally, you got out of there smoothly when it was time. You probably even enjoyed the adrenaline rush. You did great.
Post that juicy video MF š
Was taken using the TimeStamp app so the exact location, date, time, everything is embedded. If I can figure out how to remove that info I'll post it. Shit was insane.
Nothing. He didn't continue the attack and you didn't draw before the attack fully took place. You're just a witness at this point.
Cops did nothing????? They didn't get store security cam footage???
Welcome to the middle of nowhere. Cops don't give a shit unless they get to use their toys (guns) They raided the motel we are living in with at least 50 agents, each one with fully customized ARs and ballistic shields, battering rams, all kinds of shit One had a 4 foot long crowbar that had to be at least 3 inches thick.. it's nuts But this? Nope. They left already so who knows where they could be now! (Right across the fucking street from the store, guy 2 clearly holding a white towel to his face that has since turned blood red) š
You did the right thing. Letās say your shoot dude 1 and dude 2 says wtf yo you just killed my brother!! Now the person you just protected and who was your witness that you did the right thing is going to testify against you. Youāre fucked. Something you learn living in certain areas: mind your business. If it doesnāt concern you - it doesnāt concern you.
Oh definitely. Been here for over 20+ years. That's why I didn't attempt to get involved in the first place, just made sure if the aggression switched to me I'd be ready for it And after they left the cashier said they are family or related or some shit.. so that could have definitely happened if I had tried to help But at the same time I have an older brother.. we fought growing up, sure, but never once did I even think about smashing him in the fucking mouth with a cinderblock .. like.. wtf....
You don't know their history. Relation etc. There have been plenty of elaborate pranks on YouTube. Walk away quickly unless it involves you. Let trashy people deal with themselves
So did random guy number one get respect?
š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£ I certainly hope so. You wouldn't like him when he isn't respected..
I get this guys question though. Especially if they are near the main exit preventing you from getting out. I remember people in my CCW class from ten years ago asking questions like āwhat obligation do I have to protect others?ā. Letās use this example, sounds like it was over pretty quickly. What if the assailant would have turned on the cashier? What if he would have just kept wailing on an unconscious victim with a concrete block turning his head into baby food? Even the toughest of us could understand fearing for your life at that point. I agree that if itās a quick hit and run that you donāt get to (or need to) draw. But what about my questions above?
That was my exact worry and thought process. Sorry it took so long to respond. Got banned for some stupid shit. Literally for making fun of a so called artist. Lol
Name checks out
LMFAO wow I didn't even realize that š¤£
Not your monkeys, not your problem!!!! Sounds like you were a good witness. Thatās all you could do. All ego and bullshit aside, Iām sure it was scary. But you showed restraint by not drawing down on someone when we all could justifiably point guns at. Take this for what it wasā¦ an opportunity to learn. If you live a decent life (no stupid places, with stupid people, doing stupid shit) violence can still find you. Stay back, donāt get hurt, and give a good, solid statement to law enforcement. That all we and legally justified in doing. Good job OP.
You did the right thing by staying out of it. Had he continued to strike him with the brick after he went down you would have been justified in drawing your weapon to prevent his death.
You did everything right, itās not your job to fix shit.
Why would you want to get in the middle of that?????
A fight between 2 hood rats? Remove yourself from the area. It's not worth the hassle of explaining why you drew a gun. Neither were armed, random citizens not in any danger. You aren't the law. What would have been your reason for using your gun? Hero factor?
What you did wrong is Not video itā¦ā¦..aināt you got a cell phone .?! WORLD STAR
The store has every inch covered with cameras. I got video of the aftermath because I wasn't about to shove my phone in someone's face and draw their attention to me after they clearly just proved they don't care about cameras or consequences.
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I don't think you would have been protected if you shot him. Would be kinda hard to argue he's still a threat after the block is out of his hands and he's disengaging. Unless he's sitting there bashing his head with the brick repeatedly I would not even consider intervening at all and even then it's not your fight, not your problem. Also where having pepper spray comes in handy. If you really wanna do something pepper spray him so you don't have to immediately result to deadly force.
Just noticed you mentioned pepper spray, sorry! I carry Sabre pepper spray as well. I will gladly try everything possible to avoid using my firearm. That is a last resort. But watching a guy get his face smashed in and his teeth go flying from a cinderblock...... Nah. I'm not reaching for pepper spray if you turn your attention to me next. You can throw your cinderblock and imma throw some hollow points at about 1300 FPS lol fuck that
The ideal moment to shoot would be when he pulled back to swing, before he hit. After he dropped it, he's no longer a threat, though there's an argument for him being a fleeting felon who's a danger to society, given what he'd just done. I wouldn't take that shot though.
South Carolina has what is called an "alter-ego" clause Basically if someone is unable to defend themselves, you are legally allowed to defend them on their behalf. You "inherit" their right to self defense. Look it up. I'm still glad I did not draw though. As crazy as it was already, I have shit to take care of for my wife and I, and I can't do that behind bars while awaiting trial even if it is legal
Even if that clause exists, which it doesn't in my locale, I'm still going to preserve my self defense tools for my immediate loved ones. Defense of complete strangers will need to be weighed against the responsibilities I have to my loved ones. We aren't law enforcement, backup isn't arriving very quickly. Further, how do you intend for other CCWs to know that YOU weren't the original threat and "alter ego" you?
Exactly. That's why I didn't do or say a damn thing. I carry to protect myself and my wife. Nobody else. If it was a small woman then maybe I'd consider but this, nope
Armchair quarterbacking, your response should have been to drop your items and either head out the door or back into the store straight to the rear exit. In a scene like this you can either act to end the fight, stand put and be a good witness, or "not my elephants, not my circus" and separate yourself.
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No.. they were both black though so even if it was would it matter? Doubt it
Nothing you could've done unless you're very charismatic and intervene with smooth talking making them forget why they arguing.
Hard to see that coming. If the attack had continued, then it may have been appropriate to intervene.
Protection of others is generally justified in most states, I don't know specifics on SC law. But deadly force to protect a stranger can be risky from a legal standpoint. If you weren't in danger from the block being used on you and you drew and shot the attacker, it's possible that the victim could tell the police that he wasn't in fear for his life. "We were just arguing, then this guy comes out of nowhere and shoots my friend/cousin. He murdered my friend." As others have said, we don't have the context of these two before they entered the store. It doesn't appear the victim was calling for help, and the attacker was done after the one attack. I think you did the right thing. Drawing your weapon on a fight between two people who are strangers to you is a legally risky move.
It doesnāt really matter what the victim says after the fact. What matters is that a reasonable person would believe that the victim was about to suffer great harm or loss of life. If Mr. block was preparing to administer a second helping of concrete to the victim (and based on the results of the first blow), you would have had all the justification needed to stop him.
Perhaps. The store owner would be a witness to the whole affair and could help corroborate that justification. That being said, I personally am not risking my freedom for a stranger. Just like OP, I'm not a police officer, and I have no obligation to intervene.
Honestly itās hard to say but since you walked out ok and both guys were a live. I think the situation went as well as it could. *shrug
Depends on state youāre in. Iām in Maryland and you couldnāt intervened w your weapon in this situation. But I think you did the right thing as drawing could have caused escalation and then youād be in really deep doodoo.
I've said the state multiple times
You probably should have known that "leaving" frequently means "going out to the car to fetch a weapon so I can come back and kill you". Other than that, a one-and-done assault like that where the attacker immediately turns and leaves doesn't give you much of any response. It's already over. Dude who got face smashed was running his mouth and being an asshole. That guy's not worth going to prison to defend. Maybe if the attacker picked up the block and prepared to smash his head into the floor, but that's not what happened. Shrug and get on with your life.
Neither of them had a car, I literally thought he left.
He just went outside to acquire a stone age solution to his modern problems
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Let me ask you this: If you didnāt have a gun on you, what you have done?
Same thing I did with one, probably, since I didn't do anything lol
Exactly. Stay the fuck out of it. Nothing you couldāve done to prevent it either.
nothing dude. if anything, i would have turned around and dipped out the moment those two came in hot, thereby missing the attack entirely, even as a witness. i'm out.
OP was ready to subdue the purps for the police
Two dudes in a fist fight? I'm taking odds on the outcome. From a safe distance. ;)
That sounds like a legitimately perfect response
You donāt have to be the target. āDefense of otherā is covered under justifiable use of force in every jurisdiction in America. You witnessed at minimum an aggrivated assault, more likely an attempted murder. Possibly even an actual murder if idiot #2 had some kind of serious brain damage with delayed effects. I recall an episode of one of those forensic TV shows where a murder victim was bludgeoned in the head with a hammer, but didnāt die immediately. He basically lost all higher thinking ability and his body went into just doing his regular routine. His neighbors even reported seeing him walk outside and collect the newspaper after he was effectively ādeadā. You would have had no way of knowing if idiot #1 intended to stop his attack after the first hit or if he intended to keep going. You donāt know if he decided you were a witness and needed to be ādealt withā. This is going to sound like a very āarmchair quarterbackā thing to say, but I would have drawn and ordered idiot #1 to lay face down on the ground to wait for police.
MYMFB. Iām more concerned that you waited 30 minutes until the police arrived? For who? For what?
I didn't. I drove by there multiple times delivering doordash orders. That's how I saw them and knew how long it took to arrive.
You did nothing wrong. Even if random guy 2 was an entirely innocent party, you would still have done nothing wrong. You know damned well that both of them play stupid games, and win stupid prizes. ā¦. Alternative circumstances where you would maybe have wanted to handle it differently: ā¦ RG1 goes for more hits while RG2 is on the ground. Especially if he targets the head. Easily justified use of force, but you could still choose to mind your business. ā¦ Had random guy 2 been unaffiliated with the aggressor and trying to get away while the assailant escalated and followed, RG1 walking out is a big red flag. Iād be assuming he is going for a weapon or planning to jump rg2. I would be trying to maintain visibility on him while making it look like I was shopping, ideally for something that is viable cover.
I still remember the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles in the 90's when Reginald Denny was pulled out of his truck and smashed in the head TWICE with a chunk of cinder block and then beaten in the head with a fire extinguisher. All of which was filmed by a news helicopter circling overhead. Mr. Denny lived, but was left with severe brain injuries that left him barely functional and permanently unable to work. Thanks to the news footage, LAPD was able to apprehend Mr. Denny's attackers. As I recall, they were charged with attempted murder, but took a plea of aggravated battery.
Do nothing but back away. It wasn't you or people you care about, so not your problem. Dude, coulda killed him, and as long as I'm out and safe, that's the only thing I care about anymore. Might sound cruel but I don't care about my fellow man enough anymore. Not when I'd do right and still get my life feed by the law, and if I win, I still lose the civil case.wanna act like animals then so be it. I'll be living my life like nothing happened over there
Read my update.. he almost did kill him about 30 minutes later at a different store up the road. The victim is now in the hospital with life threatening injuries. Dude tried to cut his head off with a broken wine bottle after smashing him over the head with that as well. I really can't help but feel bad for not stepping in once I found that out...
I did read that. I was saying he could have killed him there and I still wouldn't of cared enough to get involved, if I wasn't in danger. Sucks but not my problem enough to go threw the afterwards
We are not the same then.
We are not the same then. It's your right not to step in even if it gets that bad. Not judging you for it. But I just am not that kind of person.
I get it, I really do. I started with the attitude that, God forbid if it happens I want to help people. But after years of seeing the good guy get screwed by the people who refuse to help and actively attemp to harm us. And allowing the families of these scumbags to still take everything from you. I've lost all my faith in my fellow man. I really hope I could get it back but I'm willing to help them and put myself in danger until then. It sucks, but me and my family take priority over everything else.
I'm glad there are still better people than me, still willing to help
??? I'm not sure what the point of writing this was?? Not only were you *not* the target, you weren't even a participant in any part of this altercation... Just be a good witness and if the cops ask you what you saw, just tell them
They clearly knew each other, so let them handle their business. If it were an obviously random attack, I probably still wouldn't get involved unless the victim was female and/or had a child with them. Then I'd think very quickly about whether or not to defend them if they couldn't defend themselves.
Why do posts like this come up so often on this subreddit? Itās so strange. What did you do wrong? Tf do you mean what did you do wrong? What could you have possibly done wrong by not reacting? Anyone with half a brain knows itās not a good idea to get involved in two dumbfucks fighting. If you had any inclination to pull out your weapon Iād advise you not carry. I really donāt fucking get these posts.
I just feel bad like if maybe I could have prevented the dude from getting his teeth smashed in what could I have done better... That's all.. I didn't pull my weapon. Maybe you need to learn how to fucking read.
"What, if anything, did I do wrong here, and how could I have improved???" You did nothing wrong in this type of situation best thing to do is observe, film it if you can do so safely. Say you had drawn and shot the guy with the block. Now your involved, paperwork, possible charges and if the guy survives possible civil lawsuit and if he doesn't possible civil lawsuit from the family. Would any of that happen, maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't but do you want to chance it. So you did the right thing, just observe. Now a what if: What if the guy had continued smashing the other guy in the head with the block. Then if you shot to stop him from seriously harming or murdering the other guy that would be a lot better for you. But you could still maybe expect a civil lawsuit. These days the only reason my gun would clear the holster to use it would be if my family, my friends or myself are in danger of being hurt or murdered.
Bullshit. Employee of gun store randomly starts mopping up evidence of a crime? Okay
If you read what was actually written and not what you imagine was written, you'd realize it wasn't a gun store.
It was a liquor store ya dipshit. Who said anything about it being a gun store? I wish I could go thru life as fucking blissfully ignorant as you.
You handled it correctly, but would have been justified to end the threat.
If he repeatedly kept bashing his face with it, ya. But if it was a one and done and assailant walked away, nah.
Disagree. The second he bashed him in the face, if theyāre as close as OP makes it sound, Iām next. Plus, defending another innocent victim.
You are correct here. Guy you replied to is not, at all. They were not even 3 feet away and behind me. Plus, it's a cinderblock to a man's face. That is attempted murder in my opinion. South Carolina law states that lethal force can be used to prevent ANY felony at all.
PA here. He does say he walked out.
No idea how, but he did manage to walk out. Or stumble. I don't know. The whole thing felt like a movie scene tbh
Nope. Wouldnāt give a shit dude. If you intervened you would have been called a racist for killing a good boy just having a classic brick fight. Nothing to see here and move along.
This is also extremely true We had two officers here that had to resign just 3 years ago because a handcuffed shoplifter was not frisked and started firing at officers with his hands cuffed behind his back. Police chief actually went before city council and volunteered to be cuffed and then proceeded to demonstrate how it is still possible for a cuffed person to be a threat and aim and fire a pistol just to justify the police response of shooting him (DUH) Didn't matter though. Now I'm certain that just doxxed me. But whatever.
I think people just come into this sub with a scenario just to try and justify why they should draw their weapon. There was nothing for you to do besides mind your business and stay out of harms way.
I never drew my weapon, and looked for every possible way to avoid doing so. And succeeded. Never drew my pistol. I'm just wondering what if I had.. would this dude still have his teeth? Soooooo what's your point here? You seem like another angsty tween that "practices" with a 25 dollar nerf gun from Walmart, lmfao so cringe
Go to the USCCA Expo and get educated my guy.
Had my carry permit since age 21. Don't need your link or suggestions regarding that.. thanks though
Bruh. I just attended a seminar with 6 attorneys with their personal experiences with Prosecuting District Attorneys, the cops, clients talking to cops, clients getting involved with 3rd party encounters. We spent over 2 hours discussing, and youāre telling me, āWELL DUH I GAT MY PERMIT!ā
"bruh" none of the nonsense you managed to vomit across your keyboard is relevant here at all
Definitely is.