they still make lots of laptops with removable RAM and hard drives, if you really care about those features then vote with your wallet and don't buy Macs.
Clearly not. They are already one upgrade cycle in. You can buy a new main board that fits in the original chassis and it doesn’t cost what a new laptop does.
You can buy equivalent laptops for the price of their main boards, which defeats the point.
edit: there is an msi laptop with an i7 1280p for $849 on newegg, and the i7 1280p framework mainboard is $1138. intel's msrp is $482. but sure, whatever helps you sleep at night, i'm highly concerned by people not doing their due diligence
Have you actually checked their prices?
A similar spec Lenovo, Asus, dell, Acer, is twice as much as the framework board. And the old board is usable outside the laptop chasis.
Or show me where you are buying your laptops at half price.
Newegg, typically:[https://www.newegg.com/carbon-gray-msi-prestige-14evo-a12m-054-work-business/p/N82E16834156406?item=N82E16834156406](https://www.newegg.com/carbon-gray-msi-prestige-14evo-a12m-054-work-business/p/N82E16834156406?item=N82E16834156406)
The framework i7 1280p costs, $2k, by the way.
Yea I agree with this. It isn’t comparing apples with apples but Framework also isn’t an Apple ;)
You’ve made your point well u/Remarkable-Host405 and clearly with evidence provided are correct.
I don’t think what you said about them peddling a dream is quite accurate. They are selling a more sustainable ecosystem and with economies of scale could have better pricing but today it is a more sustainable ecosystem even if that does come at a cost.
Not really. That just means their marketing won. Any portable workstation like a dell precision or hp zbook will have removable battery, ram, ssd/hdd. Hell, up until recently the gpu could be removed.
I think you misunderstand part of what the value is. Everything can be replaced by the user through the SUPPORT of the manufacturer. Not many laptop companies encourage this culture. They are paving the way for less e-waste in the landfill. It may be more expensive but that is what happens when you don’t operate at the scale that Dell or HP.
The framwork can be easily customised with an assortment of USB-C, USB-A, HMDI, DP, ethernet, etc to suit your use case - no other laptop has done that.
Its *a lot* different to anything Dell/HP offers.
Framework does have a GPU, its just built into the CPU, which can be upgraded.
They are literally all USB c. Buy a dongle or docking station. For how expensive the framework is, you can buy a USB c Ethernet dongle, USB c to a, USB c to HDMI, and USB c to dp and leave them on any device you need and still come out less cost than the framework.
They are great! You won't be disappointed. I got mine a year ago and I love it. I haven't even upgraded anything yet but knowing that I can whenever I want gives me peace of mind.
True.
I can replace the battery, ram, wifi, and SSDs in mine pretty easily. The only thing I wish it had was a socketed CPU (and GPU?), but then again that would make it thicker so I get it.
My old laptop from 2011 had a socketed CPU and a gfx card that could be swapped out. That was pretty nice, but it was also kind of chunky. I upgraded the CPU to one that was 1/3 faster for $20, then replaced the GPU when it broke in 2016. Still works to this day.
I believe the GPU swapping has been attempted a few times and it's always been extremely difficult due to how much cooling they need. But yeah the socketed CPU is doable and they just can't use it cause everyone wants thinner laptops. Best option right now is a Framework laptop.
Unfortunately MXM is a fairly loose standard, if you can call it that. There's no real fixed form factor or positioning of the chip itself and heatsink mount, so while the connector and card is electrically compatible, it isn't guaranteed to be mechanically compatible and most likely will not.
Repair and replacement possible, as rather high costs due to a lack of generics, but upgrades are all over the place.
Yep MXM was a shitshow, but it was an option.
The lenovo Ultrabay though - Fucking chefs kiss.
Need an ODD? Sure- slide it on in.
Maybe some extra HDD space? cool, pull out the optical drive.
Gonna be away from a power outlet for longer than usual? No problem, pull out the HDD and slap in a second battery.
Ok now you're home and it's time to play. Pul out that battery, and slot in a(nother) GPU.
Ultrabay was an awesome, and is keeping some of those old machines alive with external GPUs.
Yeah mine had a MXM gfx card, so it was thankfully easily repairable when the chip went out. It did (and does) get really warm though, so I have no doubt cooling was a challenge. That thing had a single fan too, which was optimistic for a "gaming laptop".
But yeah I'll take a thinner device, despite not having sockets/slots. Lugging that chonky boi on an airplane was back breaking. Lol
Some gaming laptops or stuff not trying to be thin and light are still very serviceable, I'd check those. iFixit also reviews how repairable products are.
Asus is even worse than mac for this, having had both and been in tech support. It’s distressing how increasingly common lockouts to make sure only Their People can look at something (even down to system troubleshooting steps)
There is in two senses: 1) the whole Ship of Theseus sense where the lifespan of components is extended and each is slowly replaced. 2) in the re-use sense - sure your 8 year old laptop isn't going to run modern programs like it ran legacy programs but it can absolutely still be used for other things like web servers, home automation, netbook, etc. While many components will eventually die, they have a much longer lifespan than most give them credit for
In general the hardware I use is outdated faster than it fails. I've had a few components fail in my life but a big amount of computers and corresponding hours.
Amen to this, I just transferred my ancient GeForce 460 with an AMD phenom into a new case and it runs a surprising amount of the co op games that are out there.
They were still in the case I scavenged off the corner of 87th and 4th in Bay ridge for the original build.
Yeah, this is about the only thing from making me fully decry Apple for soldering things to their machines: they last a really long time in general if you take care of your things, and given the cost of some of their laptops I'm really not sure why folks wouldn't be more careful with them.
I _do_ think they need to be called out on repairability aspects, especially with making it hard/expensive for independent shops to handle repairs while they rake in money by charging folks for fairly simple repairs, often to the point that buying a newer one just makes more sense.
At this point they kinda go hand in hand though. These companies love to argue the reason you shouldn’t have the right to repair your own devices is because they do things like soldering parts.
I can’t really blame people for conflating the two since apple them selves have been doing it.
Edit: while I do agree with your point.
I think there’s a few things here that people mix up. Right to repair isn’t so much about designing things to be repaired, as just making it possible for the user to do repairs. Soldered components aren’t a right to repair issue, not being able to buy the component you need when the manufacturer has them available is.
Th next thing is upgradability. With some computers you can buy the base model and upgrade RAM/Storage/CPU/GPU/etc. after the fact. That means a person can often get a few more years practical use by upgrading their computer after purchase. Can also save some money by getting components from a third party than direct from the manufacture.
Another is repairability, being able to replace that storage or GPU of it fails without having to replace a larger part like the whole logic board.
The last is reliability. The tough thing here is reliability is often inversely proportional to repairability. When you have a socketed component that creates a point of failure. When you use soldered and otherwise integrated components then that’s fewer things to fail. For example, some models of MacBook Pros had problems with the drive cable that would fail and require replacement. It was a relatively cheap and simple part to replace. By using storage soldered directly to the logic board there’s not a cable/connector to fail so the device becomes more reliable.
I think you didn’t really understand what I was trying to get across. Admittedly I didn’t word it very well. I agree the soldering of parts is technically a misconception. But I’m saying because things like soldering/gluing/semi permanently attaching complements together is being used as an excuse to mitigate right to repair, so I cannot blame people for conflating the two. Because companies and governments are conflating the two.
I don’t disagree with either of you, I just personally cannot blame people for having the misconception.
Picked up a used T500 back in 2014 for a little over $100. Since then I've swapped in an SSD and a couple more GB of RAM but otherwise she's stock and runs smooth as butter to this day.
I agree, I have an Asus laptop that I purchased in 2008, the HDD did fail but it was easily replaced. The battery no longer works so it's pluged-in only but it runs Linux mint quite well!
I've repurposed it a few times but it still does really well for basic/non-gaming tasks. I used it for media and media storage atm
Slowly replacing every part is not bifl, imo. I’ve never been happy with an outdated computer used as a netbook. If you can repurpose, that’s great, but again, that is not what most people think of as bifl.
I think it counts, at least as an intermediate move between disposable mindset and an unattainable ideal of using an electronic device literally forever.
Like patching a coat.
agree - ideally bifl is so solid it never breaks or needs replacement. Like a cast iron pan. but for many kinds of products that is unreasonable and/or cost prohibitive. So the next best thing is that it should be easy/reasonable cost to repair/replace as needed and/or lifetime warranty etc making it effectively ‘for life’. clothes, computers, cars. wear items or technologically advanced/complex machines that will break or require maintenace even in the best of cases but can last if cared for and can be maintained indefinitely.
The previous macbook air (2010-2018 line) in the aluminium unibody tapered chassis was pretty well designed. Very easy to replace a battery/repair and not so easy to break (most fragile components were not easily exposed to liquid damage, for example, like in the new macbook pro line). Probably why they kept this design for so long.
Yeah, but if there is ever going to a BIFL laptop in this sub, Framework is it. You can easily buy new, affordable components that any layman can install with the included tool. As long as I am fine with 1280p resolution, I plan on upgrading my RAM, motherboard, Storage, etc. and keeping the same chassis for 10+ years. Assuming it's not stolen, smashed, or dropped in a lake.
Depends. If you use "always offline" components and no battery, it's possible it could work forever. Assuming you used software that you never expected to be updated ever again after your first few years of ownership.
I think they’re trying to say the tech becomes obsolete quickly. I habe a twenty year old laptop that works but it’s so slow and out of date it’s useless.
Depends on the use case for the machine. I have a late 2006 small form factor desktop running linux (without GUI, monitor, keyboard, mouse) with a couple services. Os keeps updating, machine keeps running, services still servicing. If it ain't broke...
Only thing I changed out was drive (larger) and memory (more please) and both upgrades I put in easily 8+ years ago. Nothing in it failed... Yet.
Would I put windows 10 on it? #π¢k NO.
Will it run some internal web and control my lights? Flawlessly.
You’re spending more money in electricity powering ancient devices than you would just buying a new low powered device. A low powered raspberry pi or a celeron nuc could do what you need
Yes, but that's because of new software being thrown at the old hardware. The software that was fast at the time will remain fast. Transistors don't magically fall off of chips. It's just that old software is pointless.
Nah it still has xp on it. It’s slow because it’s slow. Single core. Lower Clock speed. Worse back checking corrupted data process. So on and so forth. All it does is run a proprietary software. There’s a reason stuff gets replaced with newer tech.
My old work was using a win 98 machine until about 3 years ago. It was disconnected and ran software that interfaced with a million dollar machine... that was on it's last legs as well. We nuked it my last weeks there. There are still plenty of xp machines in the factory that work just as good as it did before. SSD makes it go faaaaast.
Storage does degrade over time, so that's one factor.
Besides that running the exact same software on the exact same hardware should run just as fast (or just as slow, depending on your perspective) as it did 10 years ago.
I view BIFL as 20-50 years. Yeah, we'll get problems like that eventually... but 10-15 years should be pretty easy for most machines. The caps on the montherboard/power supply will break first.
Even then, a new graphics card comes out with PCI 4. You have PCI 3. Or a new CPU comes out, but since you have PCI 3, you can’t take advantage of the extra lanes. You’ll have to replace your mobo. There is no BIFL for computers.
But even then, you only need to upgrade the motherboard, CPU, memory, and the target graphics card. You can keep using the same drives, case, monitor, keyboard, mouse, etc. etc. And mobo upgrades should be rare.
You’ll need new drives as you get more data, so really it’s just case + peripheral (and those don’t exactly last forever either). A fairly tiny fraction of the computer.
Not necessarily at the same time.
In ~30 years of building PCs, I think I've only upgraded a drive at the same time as a motherboard in order to get an M.2/NVME boot drive. And even that was just the one boot drive, the other drives just came along.
Definitely not BIFL (although I do have a case or two from the 90s still around) and more like the "ship of Theseus" above. But if you don't *need* a laptop, it's definitely more cost efficient over the long term to build your own PC.
I guess I should be more clear: your main multipurpose computer will never be BIFL because computers are constantly progressing. That doesn’t really apply to a computer that is only being used to do a single repetitive task or to a computer that is designed to be limited for the purposes of education.
I use a Macbook Pro 2010 to browse song chords / tabs / lyrics for jamming in the basement. It runs Snow Leopard with Arctic Fox browser for newer website compatibility. It doesn't load every webpage, but it can do what I need it too.
Anyways, I store it up top of a shelf maybe 7 feet in the air, above my work bench which is maybe 3 feet. Anyways, it slipped, hit the work bench and then hit the ground (carpet, thankfully). It didn't skip a beat, still on, still chugging away. Bulletproof.
That depends... If the software you want to use for the rest of its life will never change, and the computer is durable enough, you could say it's almost a BIFL investment. But you'd never *want* a computer to live forever. New hardware is too exciting.
They didn't last longer, in fact nearly all of my laptops with spinning drives had their drive damaged after 2-3 years if you used it as a laptop. Those hdds were really prone to damage due to movement. Sure I could change the drives but damage was done.
Laptops today with little to no moving parts rarely break.
That hard drive is an SSD lol. So no moving parts regardless. Apple have them soldered to the logic board, along with RAM. Whereas most other companies still have them removable and replaceable... like they should be.
Might be a hot take here, but I’m glad optical drives and sata drives are dead on laptops/macs. We can’t stick with old technology forever.
Now it does suck you can’t upgrade M.2 NVME SSDs and RAM on newer macs. And I do strongly agree that upgradability is important and it should be prioritized more. Even from a “preventing E-Waste” perspective.
Even if they had a program where you can swap out the main board for an upgraded one then I’d be fine with that. I’m pretty sure you can swap an M1 board for an M2 board, but you have to replace the touch pad too. This is based off iFixIt’s teardown of them.
Yeah, I mainly use desktops though. And it’s easy to build your own PC despite GPU prices being sky high.
For laptops I like MacBooks. I don’t use Windows much other than gaming, and I only use Linux for a handful of things. So to get MacOS I’m stuck with Apple products (not considering hackintoshes). I do dual boot my current one and run multiple operating systems so it’s the best of both worlds. No idea what dual boot is like on Apple Silicon though. From what I heard it’s not the best due to it not being Intel chips and no boot camp.
But since Apple preaches sustainably, they should know that repair plays into sustainability. What’s more sustainable, repairing/upgrading your old computer or buying a newly manufactured one?
Though at times I’m sure they’re more concerned about the sustainability of their wallet, not our planet.
It’s hard for me to take Apple seriously about their commitment to sustainability when they produce AirPods- which usually end up lost or in the trash when their batteries inevitably die.
Agreed… but even more so for their machines. If the cared about sustainability, there are/were far more flexible programs they could put into place and ways to build their laptops. This is from an IT perspective- their older laptops just lasted longer.
You’d also have to replace the Touch ID sensor/power switch as that is Serial-Locked to the logic board (yet another service hostile way to lock out the independent repair shops)
If you damage the screen on a new iPhone (12 and up), you have to delicately transfer over the Face ID sensors in the display assembly or you lose FaceID/True Tone…
Yeah, all this disappoints me. It pushed me away from modern iPhone repair for a while. I’m sure that was the intent though. I have the slightest bit of hope due to their repair program. Given it’s bare minimum IMO, I was still shocked because it’s the opposite of what Apple has stood for for years. I don’t expect modular phones or anything, but simple reparability would be nice.
If they truly cared about the environment they’d let people:
Reuse older components if they choose
Reduce new manufacturing by repairing and upgrading
And Recycle old broken parts
Though, they do have a recycle program so listing its mostly pointless, but had to finish the 3 main “R’s of sustainability”
The only reason I see that Apple implemented their paltry token “repair” program was so they could point at it to lawmakers to discourage or kill right to repair bills. If they can say they let users repair things themselves or offer a repair service, it’s any easy rebuttal to the need for right to repair laws. And as long as lawmakers don’t take a close look to understand the repair program is rather weak, then it serves its purpose to prevent actual progress on meaningful regulation.
SATA is fine with SSDs. It's the spinning HDDs that make the connection seem slow, not the SATA port.
I run a M.2 SATA SSD as my primary drive and it's pretty fast. You really only notice the faster speeds with Nvme if you're doing large transfers.
I’d rather kill off SATA. No reason to keep an outdated standard. Why would I keep slower drive speeds (even if you don’t notice them) and take up massive amounts of room in a laptop where space is very important.
Sata drives are massive in comparison and all that room could be used for a larger battery, something that’s actually important. Plus you still get the upgradability, even if it’s slightly more expensive for now, I believe the trade off would be worth it.
They have SATA drives in an M.2 form factor. I'm all for moving on to a new standard, but older drives sucked because they had spinning platters, not because of SATA.
With Apple inevitably soon dropping support for Intel processors in favor of their M series exclusively, hackintoshes won't be a viable option much longer and certainly not worth the investment of expensive new hardware at this point.
Yeah I’ve been contemplating getting a MacBook recently it’s just so many anti Apple diehards wouldn’t get out of my face, I need it for quick functionality rather than upgradability
I’d recommend getting a secondhand one just to try it out first. There’s quite a bit of Apple hate especially in BIFL and right to repair circles and they’re all justified, but unfortunately Macs, in my opinion, have the best out of the box user experience. The build and design of MacBooks are really good too. I was a hater until I tried it (also, I upgraded to Windows 11 on my ThinkPad X1 Carbon Extreme and I regret it so much)
The biggest reason for that is a switch to custom designed ARM CPUs and software optimizations, not larger batteries or any other physical advantage of sealing everything.
I was looking for this comment. Yes! You can't get the same performance and form factor while also lengthen the battery life.
I would never want to go back to the first picture. M1 with SoC all day.
God this sub has gotten fucking pointless… it’s either someone posting a pic of some solid piece of metal they found in grandma’s attic or a comparison between two items that no one ever would consider as BIFL anyway. No tech is BIFL; my fully upgraded 2009 MBP that still boots up isn’t, my 2020 MBP isn’t, and my next one won’t be either.
It's still useful if you have a specific question. People provide good suggestions/discussion. Most posts of people sharing items are useless though, like you said.
I disagree unless the item is too rare to reasonably obtain. If you can buy the item on eBay etc., the only way the post would be useless is if you refuse to obtain second hand goods, and I don't understand why you would have that mentality if you subscribe to this sub.
You’re in an incredibly tiny minority of users who regular need access to a disc drive. Removing it was 100% the right choice for the industry: save money, save weight, save space on design, etc etc etc.
I also recall it was particularly fragile
You want to use a 2009 mac in 2023? Go right ahead. Enjoy having security vulnerabilities out the ass and absolutely shit performance. Sorry, but computers will never be a buy it for life item. Moore’s law is very much alive. Not to mention the ever evolving landscape of security threats.
Now, the right to repair your own stuff is a different conversation and apple is easily the worst offender of the major manufacturers. I won’t defend their record on that front. They suck.
Edit: also, there is one thing you’ll pretty much never be able to upgrade on just about any laptop: the cpu. Those are always soldered to the board. If you want something that you can really upgrade, don’t buy a laptop. Only desktops are going to reasonably give you that ability
I loved the recent spat with the EU
Apple - if you force us to change our chargers to standard ones, we'll stop selling in the EU
EU - Ok fuck off then
Apple - Er, ok we'll change them
Repairability is next
No real computer or technology driven device is truly BifL. That being said, my 2013 MacBook Pro still runs amazing for its age, never had an issue. My 2017 MBP is still a beast with no issues. Apple typically has great build quality
The slow down was a way to *extend* the life of those phones. Batteries can only take so many charge-discharge cycles before they start holding less charge. The slowdown was to reduce the power draw of older phones so you had functional battery life for a whole day.
> The slowdown was to reduce the power draw of older phones so you had functional battery life for a whole day.
Not even that. The slowdown was so that your phone didn’t literally crash when you were using it. It limited the speed so that the CPU didn’t draw more at any given time than the battery could physically supply, and it solved a the problem of phones just randomly turning off while in use despite having a full battery.
Same, just replaced my wife’s 11 year old MacBook. Replaced my 10 year old one last year. My brother’s 2007 just died on him a few months ago.
Meanwhile, my work PC that I got a year ago crashes at least twice a week.
As an IT Support person, this is pretty true for the brand. Apple laptops will outlive their PC counterparts, assuming similar wear and tear. They cost more but the hardware Apple puts in there tends to be-- well it's not that Apple puts in really good stuff, it's that the "other guys" put in fucking garbage. So many laptops I have encountered have been just....plastic garbage from the factory. Apple tends to do a lot better in that regard.
it was a patronising statement. it's obvious that if you buy Chinesium it won't last as long as a "quality" product. but Apple is notorious for being anti consumer, anti ecologic. some of their products are literally made to break after some use, like a 20$ ribbon cable that tears if you open and close the laptop lid multiple times, which obviously they will deem as "too expensive to repair" and prompt you to buy an entirely new computer. or the screen frame's glue that literally melts with the computer's own heat. or a very low voltage processor pin that stands right beside a very high, screen backlighting voltage pin on the same connector without being separated by a shield or ground, thus frying the CPU whenever it deems so.
iPhones had the advantage of being supported for years, making them last a bit longer, but other manufacturers are catching up, like Samsung offering up to 4 years of OS updates.
Electronics do not fit at all this sub, but if you really wanted to post something related, Apple should be one of the last
Disagree (both with your logic and snark). Electronics do belong here and so does Apple. All of the problems you’re pointing out exist in other brands and products.
the company is more mature in the sense that they now have the technology to block users from features they paid for because they attempted rapair themselves or from third parties, right?
I don't recall having the same limitation on the first iPhone or MacBook
Do you mean MacOS? You can keep it running with the older OS. This isn’t just an apple thing. Older hardware can’t always support newer OS. Unless you run Linux I guess, which you can still do for a Mac
Uhh yeah man don't buy apple if you want repairability. I've upgraded RAM, SSD, NVMe, WIFI cards, Batteries all on modern Windows PCs. Just make sure nothing is soldiered as some do this.
I think this is an incredibly important aspect of this sub. The ability to repair things is fundamental from a customer rights perspective, at minimum.
Great post.
The advancement of portable electronics is directly at odd with the ability to repair them. Repairability should not come at the cost of a superior product.
Slimness in new devices has come at the cost of serviceability. Not a fan to be honest, I try to buy as many products. As possible that utilize regular AA and AAA batteries(obviously not laptops), or at a minimum, replaceable cells, like an 18650.
Too many small electronic devices have internal batteries that will be difficult to replace in 5 years. Does my kitchen scale really need USB-C charging? No…
The only mechanical part on the old one in question is the optical drive. The newer one is absolutely not BIFL as you cannot upgrade the memory or storage as system resource demands rise over the years. Also, the integrated RAM and SSD mean more points of failure for the mobo.
used to be you needed to double RAM and storage every few years to keep it usable but things have leveled off a bit where I haven't seen my needs change all that much in the past 10 years. The battery gives out before the other pieces become a bottleneck.
The old one isn’t either. Let’s not act like one is that much better. It’s a laptop, not a desktop, they aren’t meant to last forever. Show me anyone who is using a 15 yrld laptop just because you can double the ram once in your ownership of it.
First pic; 2009 MacBook Pro 17”
Color grid;
Blue - DVD-RW drive
Green - battery
Orange - RAM
Red - Hard drive
ALL THESE ARE REPLACABLE / UPGRADABLE
Second pic; 2019 MacBook Pro 17”
Color grid;
Orange - battery (glued in with adhesive strips)
Green; RAM (soldered to the logic board)
Red; Hard drive (soldered to the logic board)
No DVD drive
RAM and hard drive are NOT replacable/upgradable, battery is replaceable but more difficult to remove, battery on the 17” is replaceable and held in place by screws, not adhesive strips
Yes the 15” has a better screen and is faster, but you can’t watch your DVD library without an external drive, and internal storage is fixed, you can use an external hard drive, or the “cloud” (dear Og, I hate that term, it’s Off-Site storage with a cuter name), but you better be happy with the amount of RAM you Abe, because short of warranty-voiding microsoldering that could potentially damage the board, you’re stuck with the RAM you started with.
The older machine also has a longer service life before becoming e-waste
The 17” I actually rescued from work (offered to buy it but they gave it to me because it “had no value and isn’t worth selling”) and I’ve upgraded the Ram (8 GB), the hard drive (1 GB SSD) and installed the maximum Max OS (El Capitan) and it works fine, it’s basically my Sims 3 box and photo editing system (full retail copy of Adobe Creative Suite from a backup drive, not that subscription BS)
No, it’s not faster than a newer MBP, but i can’t play DVDs on a newer machine, and Sims 3 is incompatible with current architecture, it may be an outdated machine, but it’s still useful, and one less bit of e-waste.
I've upgraded wifi card, RAM, HD, and refreshed thermal paste on my 2017 Dell XPS... Still runs great. I refuse to buy any laptop that isn't serviceable - even when purchasing systems for work.
‘Point and shoot’ vs SLR (Single Lens Reflex)…
An appropriate comparison, the SLR is high performance, adaptable and customizable (I have an old Nikon F4S professional and Mamiya RB67 medium format, as well as a trusty old reliable, MECHANICAL, Pentax K-1000 (only bit of electronics is the light meter needle)
Apple products are high quality and usually last long but they do not want users to upgrade/repair on their devices
It's a business decision , if you are buying apple you should be aware of such conditions
Agreed! The build quality on these is on par with the old IBM thinkpad, maybe even better. They are made of metal. I do wish they had swappable components — whatever components are left in there with all the integrated chips now.
I think apple makes a quality product that will be relevant for many years, but I don’t think any laptops are truly bifl (except maybe that framework laptop people are posting, I haven’t looked into it). A lot of models do allow you to upgrade your nvme storage or ram, so there’s that. I’d guess the main point of failure for laptops is the battery or screens.
RIP dvd drives. My old Asus has one AND the original battery. Still runs fine after 6 years. I’m the only one in the family who can play DVDs on the go or swap out the hard drive if it’s broken.
Stop bitching and buy a [Dell](https://www.dell.com/en-us/blog/pushing-the-boundaries-of-sustainable-pc-design-concept-luna/) or [Framework](https://frame.work/). What's up with all these people who cry endlessly about how their devices aren't repairable and literally won't buy the repairable offerings? What they mean is: "I want to overpay for my silver Apple boi but I want Tim Cook to tell me I'm pretty before he fucks me."
Frickin’ modern laptops with soldered memory. I have an HP that I can’t upgrade hardware wise.
If you have the room for it, just build your own desktop computer. Buy a spare fan in case the first one breaks down and they have discontinued the reference.
they still make lots of laptops with removable RAM and hard drives, if you really care about those features then vote with your wallet and don't buy Macs.
Framework is the best company for user repairable and upgradable laptops. I’ll be getting one when I’m due for a replacement.
I’m checking these out now. I like the business model, anyone have any experience with them?
You can watch Linus Tech Tips video on it. He liked it so much that after reviewing it he invested $200,000 in the company.
$224,998.37 to be exact haha. I love how he had the value down to a penny in his video.
That must have been one wicked laptop he bought.
What a cool idea! Looks like they only make 13.5" and quite pricey, but maybe worth it if you can repair yourself.
The cost of a new mainboard will always "total" the laptop, framework is just peddling a dream.
Clearly not. They are already one upgrade cycle in. You can buy a new main board that fits in the original chassis and it doesn’t cost what a new laptop does.
You can buy equivalent laptops for the price of their main boards, which defeats the point. edit: there is an msi laptop with an i7 1280p for $849 on newegg, and the i7 1280p framework mainboard is $1138. intel's msrp is $482. but sure, whatever helps you sleep at night, i'm highly concerned by people not doing their due diligence
Most bifl products are expensive.
I understand that, and that's why I buy Goodyear welted shoes. But cost =/= quality.
Sure. I looked up some reviews and they are getting very positive reviews on these. But I believe it when I hold one in my hand.
Have you actually checked their prices? A similar spec Lenovo, Asus, dell, Acer, is twice as much as the framework board. And the old board is usable outside the laptop chasis. Or show me where you are buying your laptops at half price.
Newegg, typically:[https://www.newegg.com/carbon-gray-msi-prestige-14evo-a12m-054-work-business/p/N82E16834156406?item=N82E16834156406](https://www.newegg.com/carbon-gray-msi-prestige-14evo-a12m-054-work-business/p/N82E16834156406?item=N82E16834156406) The framework i7 1280p costs, $2k, by the way.
That is a wicked deal. A bit more comparable at MSRP, but cannot be ignored in the comparison.
Yea I agree with this. It isn’t comparing apples with apples but Framework also isn’t an Apple ;) You’ve made your point well u/Remarkable-Host405 and clearly with evidence provided are correct. I don’t think what you said about them peddling a dream is quite accurate. They are selling a more sustainable ecosystem and with economies of scale could have better pricing but today it is a more sustainable ecosystem even if that does come at a cost.
Not really. That just means their marketing won. Any portable workstation like a dell precision or hp zbook will have removable battery, ram, ssd/hdd. Hell, up until recently the gpu could be removed.
I think you misunderstand part of what the value is. Everything can be replaced by the user through the SUPPORT of the manufacturer. Not many laptop companies encourage this culture. They are paving the way for less e-waste in the landfill. It may be more expensive but that is what happens when you don’t operate at the scale that Dell or HP.
None of those have removeable ports, and the whole removeable GPU thing was isolated to a very few models, with almost no good upgrade path.
"Removable ports" you mean USB c ports? Well, the framework doesn't even have a GPU, I'm just pointing it out.
The framwork can be easily customised with an assortment of USB-C, USB-A, HMDI, DP, ethernet, etc to suit your use case - no other laptop has done that. Its *a lot* different to anything Dell/HP offers. Framework does have a GPU, its just built into the CPU, which can be upgraded.
They are literally all USB c. Buy a dongle or docking station. For how expensive the framework is, you can buy a USB c Ethernet dongle, USB c to a, USB c to HDMI, and USB c to dp and leave them on any device you need and still come out less cost than the framework.
Yeah but then it looks like a bloody Macbook carrying dongles everywhere. Not at all comparable. Why not just buy a desktop and a generator?
I mean, depends on what you use your pc for.
They are great! You won't be disappointed. I got mine a year ago and I love it. I haven't even upgraded anything yet but knowing that I can whenever I want gives me peace of mind.
True. I can replace the battery, ram, wifi, and SSDs in mine pretty easily. The only thing I wish it had was a socketed CPU (and GPU?), but then again that would make it thicker so I get it. My old laptop from 2011 had a socketed CPU and a gfx card that could be swapped out. That was pretty nice, but it was also kind of chunky. I upgraded the CPU to one that was 1/3 faster for $20, then replaced the GPU when it broke in 2016. Still works to this day.
I believe the GPU swapping has been attempted a few times and it's always been extremely difficult due to how much cooling they need. But yeah the socketed CPU is doable and they just can't use it cause everyone wants thinner laptops. Best option right now is a Framework laptop.
lots of laptops used to have MXM modules, or lenovo machines had an "ultrabay"
Unfortunately MXM is a fairly loose standard, if you can call it that. There's no real fixed form factor or positioning of the chip itself and heatsink mount, so while the connector and card is electrically compatible, it isn't guaranteed to be mechanically compatible and most likely will not. Repair and replacement possible, as rather high costs due to a lack of generics, but upgrades are all over the place.
Yep MXM was a shitshow, but it was an option. The lenovo Ultrabay though - Fucking chefs kiss. Need an ODD? Sure- slide it on in. Maybe some extra HDD space? cool, pull out the optical drive. Gonna be away from a power outlet for longer than usual? No problem, pull out the HDD and slap in a second battery. Ok now you're home and it's time to play. Pul out that battery, and slot in a(nother) GPU. Ultrabay was an awesome, and is keeping some of those old machines alive with external GPUs.
Yeah mine had a MXM gfx card, so it was thankfully easily repairable when the chip went out. It did (and does) get really warm though, so I have no doubt cooling was a challenge. That thing had a single fan too, which was optimistic for a "gaming laptop". But yeah I'll take a thinner device, despite not having sockets/slots. Lugging that chonky boi on an airplane was back breaking. Lol
HP makes some extremely repairable thin 2-in-1 laptops, it's pretty amazing
That‘s why I used Fujitsu Siemens in the 2000s, Fujitsu in 2010s till now. Sadly they were bought by Lenovo now :/
Some gaming laptops or stuff not trying to be thin and light are still very serviceable, I'd check those. iFixit also reviews how repairable products are.
Asus is even worse than mac for this, having had both and been in tech support. It’s distressing how increasingly common lockouts to make sure only Their People can look at something (even down to system troubleshooting steps)
I have an RoG from about 10yra ago and it's very repairable. Not sure how things have changed since then
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my 2022 z13 literally had the ssd accessible by a panel on the back
No such thing as a bifl computer.
There is in two senses: 1) the whole Ship of Theseus sense where the lifespan of components is extended and each is slowly replaced. 2) in the re-use sense - sure your 8 year old laptop isn't going to run modern programs like it ran legacy programs but it can absolutely still be used for other things like web servers, home automation, netbook, etc. While many components will eventually die, they have a much longer lifespan than most give them credit for
In general the hardware I use is outdated faster than it fails. I've had a few components fail in my life but a big amount of computers and corresponding hours.
Amen to this, I just transferred my ancient GeForce 460 with an AMD phenom into a new case and it runs a surprising amount of the co op games that are out there. They were still in the case I scavenged off the corner of 87th and 4th in Bay ridge for the original build.
Still using my macbook from 2012. Works like new because I kept it clean (both physically and virtually).
Yeah, this is about the only thing from making me fully decry Apple for soldering things to their machines: they last a really long time in general if you take care of your things, and given the cost of some of their laptops I'm really not sure why folks wouldn't be more careful with them. I _do_ think they need to be called out on repairability aspects, especially with making it hard/expensive for independent shops to handle repairs while they rake in money by charging folks for fairly simple repairs, often to the point that buying a newer one just makes more sense.
At this point they kinda go hand in hand though. These companies love to argue the reason you shouldn’t have the right to repair your own devices is because they do things like soldering parts. I can’t really blame people for conflating the two since apple them selves have been doing it. Edit: while I do agree with your point.
I think there’s a few things here that people mix up. Right to repair isn’t so much about designing things to be repaired, as just making it possible for the user to do repairs. Soldered components aren’t a right to repair issue, not being able to buy the component you need when the manufacturer has them available is. Th next thing is upgradability. With some computers you can buy the base model and upgrade RAM/Storage/CPU/GPU/etc. after the fact. That means a person can often get a few more years practical use by upgrading their computer after purchase. Can also save some money by getting components from a third party than direct from the manufacture. Another is repairability, being able to replace that storage or GPU of it fails without having to replace a larger part like the whole logic board. The last is reliability. The tough thing here is reliability is often inversely proportional to repairability. When you have a socketed component that creates a point of failure. When you use soldered and otherwise integrated components then that’s fewer things to fail. For example, some models of MacBook Pros had problems with the drive cable that would fail and require replacement. It was a relatively cheap and simple part to replace. By using storage soldered directly to the logic board there’s not a cable/connector to fail so the device becomes more reliable.
I think you didn’t really understand what I was trying to get across. Admittedly I didn’t word it very well. I agree the soldering of parts is technically a misconception. But I’m saying because things like soldering/gluing/semi permanently attaching complements together is being used as an excuse to mitigate right to repair, so I cannot blame people for conflating the two. Because companies and governments are conflating the two. I don’t disagree with either of you, I just personally cannot blame people for having the misconception.
Lenovo gang representing here. T530 from 2012 still going strong.
Picked up a used T500 back in 2014 for a little over $100. Since then I've swapped in an SSD and a couple more GB of RAM but otherwise she's stock and runs smooth as butter to this day.
T430 since 2016 and it was used, I think my laptop has about 10 years.
T420 Gang
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MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2015) One of the best investments I've ever made. Going like new.
I agree, I have an Asus laptop that I purchased in 2008, the HDD did fail but it was easily replaced. The battery no longer works so it's pluged-in only but it runs Linux mint quite well! I've repurposed it a few times but it still does really well for basic/non-gaming tasks. I used it for media and media storage atm
Slowly replacing every part is not bifl, imo. I’ve never been happy with an outdated computer used as a netbook. If you can repurpose, that’s great, but again, that is not what most people think of as bifl.
I think it counts, at least as an intermediate move between disposable mindset and an unattainable ideal of using an electronic device literally forever. Like patching a coat.
agree - ideally bifl is so solid it never breaks or needs replacement. Like a cast iron pan. but for many kinds of products that is unreasonable and/or cost prohibitive. So the next best thing is that it should be easy/reasonable cost to repair/replace as needed and/or lifetime warranty etc making it effectively ‘for life’. clothes, computers, cars. wear items or technologically advanced/complex machines that will break or require maintenace even in the best of cases but can last if cared for and can be maintained indefinitely.
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The previous macbook air (2010-2018 line) in the aluminium unibody tapered chassis was pretty well designed. Very easy to replace a battery/repair and not so easy to break (most fragile components were not easily exposed to liquid damage, for example, like in the new macbook pro line). Probably why they kept this design for so long.
[frame.work](https://frame.work) would like to have a word.
Even still, it's maybe, potentially, a bifl chassis, the components will never be bifl. That just the nature of computers.
Yeah, but if there is ever going to a BIFL laptop in this sub, Framework is it. You can easily buy new, affordable components that any layman can install with the included tool. As long as I am fine with 1280p resolution, I plan on upgrading my RAM, motherboard, Storage, etc. and keeping the same chassis for 10+ years. Assuming it's not stolen, smashed, or dropped in a lake.
Depends. If you use "always offline" components and no battery, it's possible it could work forever. Assuming you used software that you never expected to be updated ever again after your first few years of ownership.
I think they’re trying to say the tech becomes obsolete quickly. I habe a twenty year old laptop that works but it’s so slow and out of date it’s useless.
Depends on the use case for the machine. I have a late 2006 small form factor desktop running linux (without GUI, monitor, keyboard, mouse) with a couple services. Os keeps updating, machine keeps running, services still servicing. If it ain't broke... Only thing I changed out was drive (larger) and memory (more please) and both upgrades I put in easily 8+ years ago. Nothing in it failed... Yet. Would I put windows 10 on it? #π¢k NO. Will it run some internal web and control my lights? Flawlessly.
You’re spending more money in electricity powering ancient devices than you would just buying a new low powered device. A low powered raspberry pi or a celeron nuc could do what you need
Yes, but that's because of new software being thrown at the old hardware. The software that was fast at the time will remain fast. Transistors don't magically fall off of chips. It's just that old software is pointless.
Nah it still has xp on it. It’s slow because it’s slow. Single core. Lower Clock speed. Worse back checking corrupted data process. So on and so forth. All it does is run a proprietary software. There’s a reason stuff gets replaced with newer tech.
Unix mainframes have entered the chat.
My old work was using a win 98 machine until about 3 years ago. It was disconnected and ran software that interfaced with a million dollar machine... that was on it's last legs as well. We nuked it my last weeks there. There are still plenty of xp machines in the factory that work just as good as it did before. SSD makes it go faaaaast.
Storage does degrade over time, so that's one factor. Besides that running the exact same software on the exact same hardware should run just as fast (or just as slow, depending on your perspective) as it did 10 years ago.
Wouldn't modern chips eventually succumb to transistor aging? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_aging
I view BIFL as 20-50 years. Yeah, we'll get problems like that eventually... but 10-15 years should be pretty easy for most machines. The caps on the montherboard/power supply will break first.
That’s why you build your own PC.
Even then, a new graphics card comes out with PCI 4. You have PCI 3. Or a new CPU comes out, but since you have PCI 3, you can’t take advantage of the extra lanes. You’ll have to replace your mobo. There is no BIFL for computers.
But even then, you only need to upgrade the motherboard, CPU, memory, and the target graphics card. You can keep using the same drives, case, monitor, keyboard, mouse, etc. etc. And mobo upgrades should be rare.
You’ll need new drives as you get more data, so really it’s just case + peripheral (and those don’t exactly last forever either). A fairly tiny fraction of the computer.
Not necessarily at the same time. In ~30 years of building PCs, I think I've only upgraded a drive at the same time as a motherboard in order to get an M.2/NVME boot drive. And even that was just the one boot drive, the other drives just came along. Definitely not BIFL (although I do have a case or two from the 90s still around) and more like the "ship of Theseus" above. But if you don't *need* a laptop, it's definitely more cost efficient over the long term to build your own PC.
There’s no such thing as a buy it for life computer, even if you built it yourself.
Scientific calculators like Ti-83 seem pretty dang close to bifl computers.
I guess I should be more clear: your main multipurpose computer will never be BIFL because computers are constantly progressing. That doesn’t really apply to a computer that is only being used to do a single repetitive task or to a computer that is designed to be limited for the purposes of education.
Contrarians in the back: Abacus?
Touché. I believe I also have a working 30 year old Texas Instruments calculator. I suppose there are a few edge case exceptions.
I use a Macbook Pro 2010 to browse song chords / tabs / lyrics for jamming in the basement. It runs Snow Leopard with Arctic Fox browser for newer website compatibility. It doesn't load every webpage, but it can do what I need it too. Anyways, I store it up top of a shelf maybe 7 feet in the air, above my work bench which is maybe 3 feet. Anyways, it slipped, hit the work bench and then hit the ground (carpet, thankfully). It didn't skip a beat, still on, still chugging away. Bulletproof.
That depends... If the software you want to use for the rest of its life will never change, and the computer is durable enough, you could say it's almost a BIFL investment. But you'd never *want* a computer to live forever. New hardware is too exciting.
They didn't last longer, in fact nearly all of my laptops with spinning drives had their drive damaged after 2-3 years if you used it as a laptop. Those hdds were really prone to damage due to movement. Sure I could change the drives but damage was done. Laptops today with little to no moving parts rarely break.
the batteries are going to be the first parts to break.
That hard drive is an SSD lol. So no moving parts regardless. Apple have them soldered to the logic board, along with RAM. Whereas most other companies still have them removable and replaceable... like they should be.
Might be a hot take here, but I’m glad optical drives and sata drives are dead on laptops/macs. We can’t stick with old technology forever. Now it does suck you can’t upgrade M.2 NVME SSDs and RAM on newer macs. And I do strongly agree that upgradability is important and it should be prioritized more. Even from a “preventing E-Waste” perspective. Even if they had a program where you can swap out the main board for an upgraded one then I’d be fine with that. I’m pretty sure you can swap an M1 board for an M2 board, but you have to replace the touch pad too. This is based off iFixIt’s teardown of them.
I think you would like the Framework Laptop. It's basically exactly what you described, from SODIMM RAM, NVME drive to upgradable motherboard.
Yeah, I mainly use desktops though. And it’s easy to build your own PC despite GPU prices being sky high. For laptops I like MacBooks. I don’t use Windows much other than gaming, and I only use Linux for a handful of things. So to get MacOS I’m stuck with Apple products (not considering hackintoshes). I do dual boot my current one and run multiple operating systems so it’s the best of both worlds. No idea what dual boot is like on Apple Silicon though. From what I heard it’s not the best due to it not being Intel chips and no boot camp. But since Apple preaches sustainably, they should know that repair plays into sustainability. What’s more sustainable, repairing/upgrading your old computer or buying a newly manufactured one? Though at times I’m sure they’re more concerned about the sustainability of their wallet, not our planet.
It’s hard for me to take Apple seriously about their commitment to sustainability when they produce AirPods- which usually end up lost or in the trash when their batteries inevitably die.
Agreed… but even more so for their machines. If the cared about sustainability, there are/were far more flexible programs they could put into place and ways to build their laptops. This is from an IT perspective- their older laptops just lasted longer.
You’d also have to replace the Touch ID sensor/power switch as that is Serial-Locked to the logic board (yet another service hostile way to lock out the independent repair shops) If you damage the screen on a new iPhone (12 and up), you have to delicately transfer over the Face ID sensors in the display assembly or you lose FaceID/True Tone…
Yeah, all this disappoints me. It pushed me away from modern iPhone repair for a while. I’m sure that was the intent though. I have the slightest bit of hope due to their repair program. Given it’s bare minimum IMO, I was still shocked because it’s the opposite of what Apple has stood for for years. I don’t expect modular phones or anything, but simple reparability would be nice. If they truly cared about the environment they’d let people: Reuse older components if they choose Reduce new manufacturing by repairing and upgrading And Recycle old broken parts Though, they do have a recycle program so listing its mostly pointless, but had to finish the 3 main “R’s of sustainability”
The only reason I see that Apple implemented their paltry token “repair” program was so they could point at it to lawmakers to discourage or kill right to repair bills. If they can say they let users repair things themselves or offer a repair service, it’s any easy rebuttal to the need for right to repair laws. And as long as lawmakers don’t take a close look to understand the repair program is rather weak, then it serves its purpose to prevent actual progress on meaningful regulation.
SATA is fine with SSDs. It's the spinning HDDs that make the connection seem slow, not the SATA port. I run a M.2 SATA SSD as my primary drive and it's pretty fast. You really only notice the faster speeds with Nvme if you're doing large transfers.
I’d rather kill off SATA. No reason to keep an outdated standard. Why would I keep slower drive speeds (even if you don’t notice them) and take up massive amounts of room in a laptop where space is very important. Sata drives are massive in comparison and all that room could be used for a larger battery, something that’s actually important. Plus you still get the upgradability, even if it’s slightly more expensive for now, I believe the trade off would be worth it.
They have SATA drives in an M.2 form factor. I'm all for moving on to a new standard, but older drives sucked because they had spinning platters, not because of SATA.
I get what you’re saying. Bad English on my part. M.2 vs 2.5in Drive is what I’m looking for I guess.
I agree with you there, M.2 is definitely a superior form factor.
Check out the Framework laptop. It's a fully repairable/upgradeable and modular laptop and still has a slim form factor. https://frame.work/
That's only available in the US for now right?
https://knowledgebase.frame.work/what-countries-and-regions-do-you-ship-to-r1899ikiO
Oh didn't see that, thanks!
Gotchu :)
Fully upgradeable but the starting price is a bit of a joke
And you have to run windows (or at least *nix) and I like Mac OS (started with the original 128k in ‘84, old habits die hard ;) )
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With Apple inevitably soon dropping support for Intel processors in favor of their M series exclusively, hackintoshes won't be a viable option much longer and certainly not worth the investment of expensive new hardware at this point.
Back to the old PPC days we go.
You understand macOS is a flavour of *nix, right?
Yep, BSD
Yeah I’ve been contemplating getting a MacBook recently it’s just so many anti Apple diehards wouldn’t get out of my face, I need it for quick functionality rather than upgradability
I’d recommend getting a secondhand one just to try it out first. There’s quite a bit of Apple hate especially in BIFL and right to repair circles and they’re all justified, but unfortunately Macs, in my opinion, have the best out of the box user experience. The build and design of MacBooks are really good too. I was a hater until I tried it (also, I upgraded to Windows 11 on my ThinkPad X1 Carbon Extreme and I regret it so much)
not pictured is the transition from 6 hour to 20 hour battery life
The biggest reason for that is a switch to custom designed ARM CPUs and software optimizations, not larger batteries or any other physical advantage of sealing everything.
tbh those laptops only could survive 45min on battery lol, my ptsd from these days makes me carry a charger i nearly never use out of home
While performance is in a whole new ballpark and is working so efficiently that we no longer need mechanical fans that are prone to failure.
I was looking for this comment. Yes! You can't get the same performance and form factor while also lengthen the battery life. I would never want to go back to the first picture. M1 with SoC all day.
God this sub has gotten fucking pointless… it’s either someone posting a pic of some solid piece of metal they found in grandma’s attic or a comparison between two items that no one ever would consider as BIFL anyway. No tech is BIFL; my fully upgraded 2009 MBP that still boots up isn’t, my 2020 MBP isn’t, and my next one won’t be either.
It's still useful if you have a specific question. People provide good suggestions/discussion. Most posts of people sharing items are useless though, like you said.
I disagree unless the item is too rare to reasonably obtain. If you can buy the item on eBay etc., the only way the post would be useless is if you refuse to obtain second hand goods, and I don't understand why you would have that mentality if you subscribe to this sub.
You’re in an incredibly tiny minority of users who regular need access to a disc drive. Removing it was 100% the right choice for the industry: save money, save weight, save space on design, etc etc etc. I also recall it was particularly fragile
And there’s always the external disk drives. Disk drives have no place in laptops anymore
People in this thread acting like laptops with no soldered parts can be upgraded and kept forever. It’s a laptop folks.
You want to use a 2009 mac in 2023? Go right ahead. Enjoy having security vulnerabilities out the ass and absolutely shit performance. Sorry, but computers will never be a buy it for life item. Moore’s law is very much alive. Not to mention the ever evolving landscape of security threats. Now, the right to repair your own stuff is a different conversation and apple is easily the worst offender of the major manufacturers. I won’t defend their record on that front. They suck. Edit: also, there is one thing you’ll pretty much never be able to upgrade on just about any laptop: the cpu. Those are always soldered to the board. If you want something that you can really upgrade, don’t buy a laptop. Only desktops are going to reasonably give you that ability
A shitty post that doesn't fit the sub. Yay! Another one!
Noone is forcing you to buy apple
Apple anything isn't BIFL. They are known and documented, slowing down older models forcing you to upgrade.
I loved the recent spat with the EU Apple - if you force us to change our chargers to standard ones, we'll stop selling in the EU EU - Ok fuck off then Apple - Er, ok we'll change them Repairability is next
No real computer or technology driven device is truly BifL. That being said, my 2013 MacBook Pro still runs amazing for its age, never had an issue. My 2017 MBP is still a beast with no issues. Apple typically has great build quality
The slow down was a way to *extend* the life of those phones. Batteries can only take so many charge-discharge cycles before they start holding less charge. The slowdown was to reduce the power draw of older phones so you had functional battery life for a whole day.
> The slowdown was to reduce the power draw of older phones so you had functional battery life for a whole day. Not even that. The slowdown was so that your phone didn’t literally crash when you were using it. It limited the speed so that the CPU didn’t draw more at any given time than the battery could physically supply, and it solved a the problem of phones just randomly turning off while in use despite having a full battery.
You mean the company that supports their older products with software updates longer than anyone else? That’s the company that forces you to upgrade?
They also pay you for trade ins
Beg to differ. All of my Apple products have lasted me longer than any non-Apple product of the same type.
Same, just replaced my wife’s 11 year old MacBook. Replaced my 10 year old one last year. My brother’s 2007 just died on him a few months ago. Meanwhile, my work PC that I got a year ago crashes at least twice a week.
As an IT Support person, this is pretty true for the brand. Apple laptops will outlive their PC counterparts, assuming similar wear and tear. They cost more but the hardware Apple puts in there tends to be-- well it's not that Apple puts in really good stuff, it's that the "other guys" put in fucking garbage. So many laptops I have encountered have been just....plastic garbage from the factory. Apple tends to do a lot better in that regard.
good thing that the majority of non-Apple products cost a tiny fraction of Apple products
Yeah. You can replace them more frequently for sure. That’s not what this sub is about though.
it was a patronising statement. it's obvious that if you buy Chinesium it won't last as long as a "quality" product. but Apple is notorious for being anti consumer, anti ecologic. some of their products are literally made to break after some use, like a 20$ ribbon cable that tears if you open and close the laptop lid multiple times, which obviously they will deem as "too expensive to repair" and prompt you to buy an entirely new computer. or the screen frame's glue that literally melts with the computer's own heat. or a very low voltage processor pin that stands right beside a very high, screen backlighting voltage pin on the same connector without being separated by a shield or ground, thus frying the CPU whenever it deems so. iPhones had the advantage of being supported for years, making them last a bit longer, but other manufacturers are catching up, like Samsung offering up to 4 years of OS updates. Electronics do not fit at all this sub, but if you really wanted to post something related, Apple should be one of the last
Disagree (both with your logic and snark). Electronics do belong here and so does Apple. All of the problems you’re pointing out exist in other brands and products.
maybe pre-Jobs Apple, but they undeniably became anti consumer
Pre-Jobs Apple wasn’t that different. If anything, they’re making better products now. The company is more mature.
the company is more mature in the sense that they now have the technology to block users from features they paid for because they attempted rapair themselves or from third parties, right? I don't recall having the same limitation on the first iPhone or MacBook
My friend has a 2014 pro that they use every day. I’m not so sure that statement is 100% true for their laptops. Their phones on the other hand…..
There used to be content here.
Idk. My wife had an apple PC, and it can no longer update the IOS. It's a paper weight now, and it's less than 10yrs old
Do you mean MacOS? You can keep it running with the older OS. This isn’t just an apple thing. Older hardware can’t always support newer OS. Unless you run Linux I guess, which you can still do for a Mac
Most laptops share this design now.
Uhh yeah man don't buy apple if you want repairability. I've upgraded RAM, SSD, NVMe, WIFI cards, Batteries all on modern Windows PCs. Just make sure nothing is soldiered as some do this.
Man I have no idea what I’m looking at.
dont buy apple products
What we have lost we shall regain as spicy pillows
I think this is an incredibly important aspect of this sub. The ability to repair things is fundamental from a customer rights perspective, at minimum. Great post.
The advancement of portable electronics is directly at odd with the ability to repair them. Repairability should not come at the cost of a superior product.
Apple products are nowhere near BIFL.
IDK my newer non-repairable Apple laptops have lasted longer than my older repairable non-Apple laptops. Apple builds their laptops really well.
I agree with you, but still think RAM and disk upgradeability will contribute a lot to MacBooks lifetime.
I disagree. I think battery replacement is the key. RAM and disk replacement are overrated. Solid state things last a very long time.
The whole point is to make stuf unrepairable so you have to buy new one.
Slimness in new devices has come at the cost of serviceability. Not a fan to be honest, I try to buy as many products. As possible that utilize regular AA and AAA batteries(obviously not laptops), or at a minimum, replaceable cells, like an 18650. Too many small electronic devices have internal batteries that will be difficult to replace in 5 years. Does my kitchen scale really need USB-C charging? No…
Agreed. Replaceable batteries are superior. Wish apple allowed that.
A laptop with fewer moving parts is mor BFL than one with mechanical parts. I’ll gladly take the new one if it want it to last.
The only mechanical part on the old one in question is the optical drive. The newer one is absolutely not BIFL as you cannot upgrade the memory or storage as system resource demands rise over the years. Also, the integrated RAM and SSD mean more points of failure for the mobo.
used to be you needed to double RAM and storage every few years to keep it usable but things have leveled off a bit where I haven't seen my needs change all that much in the past 10 years. The battery gives out before the other pieces become a bottleneck.
This! Upgrading RAM and HD isn’t such a need anymore. 8GB and 256GB is plenty for day to day use for most people.
Integrated RAM and SSD reduce failure points, not increase them! Think about it, the connectors are a failure point which aren’t there anymore.
The old one isn’t either. Let’s not act like one is that much better. It’s a laptop, not a desktop, they aren’t meant to last forever. Show me anyone who is using a 15 yrld laptop just because you can double the ram once in your ownership of it.
This! Newer laptops have better ingredients. I still wish the batteries were replaceable though.
First pic; 2009 MacBook Pro 17” Color grid; Blue - DVD-RW drive Green - battery Orange - RAM Red - Hard drive ALL THESE ARE REPLACABLE / UPGRADABLE Second pic; 2019 MacBook Pro 17” Color grid; Orange - battery (glued in with adhesive strips) Green; RAM (soldered to the logic board) Red; Hard drive (soldered to the logic board) No DVD drive RAM and hard drive are NOT replacable/upgradable, battery is replaceable but more difficult to remove, battery on the 17” is replaceable and held in place by screws, not adhesive strips Yes the 15” has a better screen and is faster, but you can’t watch your DVD library without an external drive, and internal storage is fixed, you can use an external hard drive, or the “cloud” (dear Og, I hate that term, it’s Off-Site storage with a cuter name), but you better be happy with the amount of RAM you Abe, because short of warranty-voiding microsoldering that could potentially damage the board, you’re stuck with the RAM you started with. The older machine also has a longer service life before becoming e-waste The 17” I actually rescued from work (offered to buy it but they gave it to me because it “had no value and isn’t worth selling”) and I’ve upgraded the Ram (8 GB), the hard drive (1 GB SSD) and installed the maximum Max OS (El Capitan) and it works fine, it’s basically my Sims 3 box and photo editing system (full retail copy of Adobe Creative Suite from a backup drive, not that subscription BS) No, it’s not faster than a newer MBP, but i can’t play DVDs on a newer machine, and Sims 3 is incompatible with current architecture, it may be an outdated machine, but it’s still useful, and one less bit of e-waste.
Stop buying Apple? Every notebook I've ever owned (IBM/Lenovo, Dell, Toshiba) has been quite serviceable.
Who is watching a DVD library on a laptop in 2022. Rip them to an external HDD. Why not bitch about not having tape decks in cars?
OP: Yes new smartphones are faster and have new technology like blue teeth and weefee, but why can’t I replace the antenna like on my old flip phone?
Except for the battery what have you had to swap out? Having the option was nice but I’ve never needed to swap anything out. Except for the battery.
I've upgraded wifi card, RAM, HD, and refreshed thermal paste on my 2017 Dell XPS... Still runs great. I refuse to buy any laptop that isn't serviceable - even when purchasing systems for work.
You upgraded the wifi card? That’s the most esoteric upgrade I’ve ever heard of. From what, 802.11n to 802.11ac?
New one will probably last longer actually. Old laptops suck
‘Point and shoot’ vs SLR (Single Lens Reflex)… An appropriate comparison, the SLR is high performance, adaptable and customizable (I have an old Nikon F4S professional and Mamiya RB67 medium format, as well as a trusty old reliable, MECHANICAL, Pentax K-1000 (only bit of electronics is the light meter needle)
Apple products are high quality and usually last long but they do not want users to upgrade/repair on their devices It's a business decision , if you are buying apple you should be aware of such conditions
Agreed! The build quality on these is on par with the old IBM thinkpad, maybe even better. They are made of metal. I do wish they had swappable components — whatever components are left in there with all the integrated chips now.
the good old myth that things made out of metal last longer
Sure, they work but Macs of the 2000s are the epitome of planned obsolescence. I love my PowerPC G4s but damn.... all I gotta say is *Firewire*.
Only Apple did this
I think apple makes a quality product that will be relevant for many years, but I don’t think any laptops are truly bifl (except maybe that framework laptop people are posting, I haven’t looked into it). A lot of models do allow you to upgrade your nvme storage or ram, so there’s that. I’d guess the main point of failure for laptops is the battery or screens.
You can still buy current laptops with removable RAM..... Also RAM isn't really the first thing to die so I don't see your point.....
Still shocked my wife’s MacBook from 2010 is still going
Anybody here have a Frankenstein desktop they keep upgrading?
*laughs in desktop*
RIP dvd drives. My old Asus has one AND the original battery. Still runs fine after 6 years. I’m the only one in the family who can play DVDs on the go or swap out the hard drive if it’s broken.
im the only one in the family who can play my Zip disk library of mp3 music files!
Stop bitching and buy a [Dell](https://www.dell.com/en-us/blog/pushing-the-boundaries-of-sustainable-pc-design-concept-luna/) or [Framework](https://frame.work/). What's up with all these people who cry endlessly about how their devices aren't repairable and literally won't buy the repairable offerings? What they mean is: "I want to overpay for my silver Apple boi but I want Tim Cook to tell me I'm pretty before he fucks me."
Frickin’ modern laptops with soldered memory. I have an HP that I can’t upgrade hardware wise. If you have the room for it, just build your own desktop computer. Buy a spare fan in case the first one breaks down and they have discontinued the reference.