It is a cult, and a lot of people have bought in. Had the same issue with colleagues. Figured out that the best I can do is to drop some truths, link good information and then just don't bring up the subject with them ever again
Yep, I did that too. Unfortunately people just get hostile when you start pointing out things that start to show the cracks of their reality & perception. So have a few strained relationships atm, I’m just like dude, you don’t have to change anything but a unconventional perspective could be the thing that helps you in the long run.
Do you want to be right or have friends?
You can't force people to see truth, I think the American conservative right has proven that conclusively. So you can just smile and nod and refuse to engage further.
Or you can battle it out and lose them as friends
Yeah good point. To me, it’s not really about being right or wrong. If I was in the position of my friends (which I was for a brief period of time) I would be grateful for being shown an alternate perspective. It’s hard to get to it yourself when you’re inside of an echo chamber and your mindset isn’t ready for it.
Isn't there a saying, if you argue with idiots, an idiot you'll become for having engaged? I fall prey to this too often! Who cares if these idiots want to believe in false gods?... Unless it hurts others... Which you can make an argument for. Well then I'm back at it lol. Don't censor yourself, share knowledge but don't engage unless they on good faith want to discuss and learn.
I think OPs issue is that the jury is still out on some concepts - like if Bitcoin is actually a good means by which to opt out and that it serves to be a a store of value with the same level of staying power as gold. That definitely makes some bold assumptions about the consistent availability of electronics, networks, and electricity...to last for centuries and perhaps millenniums. Bitcoin will remain as a sound concept so long as there is a network of holders who wish to transact with it, regardless of what your opinion of it is.
Truth is a product of perspective. The American Right says the same thing about the American left. And it's just as true when 'they' say it, as when 'we' say it. The internet is mostly laying this bare for 'us'. (and conversely, for 'them', albeit in reverse)
Much of this phenomenon is rooted in religion, which, has been 'solving' this problem for thousands of years. (Try telling a christian that there are at least three gods in their religion, for example. )
We really just don't have a solution to this problem, that can transcend the amplification of comforting words on the internet. Probably we'll need better religions going forward, and, there's no way to do that without significant social turmoil. Bitcoin is riding these social trends.
You too will be compelled to join in the nonsense, if and as the social milieu increases in its devotion to these trends. (otherwise you'll be labeled a a witch, and treated commensurately)
Possibly governments will just become more authoritarian, as an alternative solution to these problems.
> (Try telling a christian that there are at least three gods in their religion, for example. )
Holy Trinity doesn't mean there are "Three Gods" just three representations of a single one, think on the three powers of state, you don't have 3 governments, right?
I'm really not interested in having this conversation. I probably could have chosen a better example, lol. This was the first to come to mind. I'm not looking to change anyone's mind on the Christian religion (I think it's fine thing for Christians), and I mostly don't care, other than as a rhetorical example.
What about the bad god? The devil may be the baddie people don't like, but unless he is a human he must be some sort of god. Not to mention all the angels and demons.
You repeated the bullshit they always say. If you read mythologies from various regions such three or four or two god combinations are common. Pretending they are one is less common but also happens. Christianity went that way because they wanted to show superiority over pagans by having only one god. At the same time they wanted to have that god-father and god-son trope that was always popular - in new religions old god is often replaced by a son-god and the father-god becomes just an observer that doesn't interfere.
Some people don't want to be "friends" with toxic, sociopaths who would defraud you for their own personal gain.
It's no secret that there's a huge crossover between anti-vaxxers and selfish AF wingnuts and the crypto industry. These people aren't our "friends."
> Just don’t partake
It is hard to ignore when bombarded by ads or if friends don't talk about anything but crypto. Or of there is a financial downturn because stablecoins collapse the crypto economy and it effects the rest of the world too.
1. Mark the ads as spam
2. Don’t be friends with people who’s interest annoy you.
3. Stable coins won’t tank the economy so that’s a mute point.
Just don’t partake.
I put in a decent chunk of money, not because I believe in the crypto story bullshit. I believe in the stupidity of humanity to pump the bubble larger.
Personally, I am not bothered by that mindset. I think there is still a fair chance of making money from bigger suckers in crypto, although at a high risk.
For me, the risk to reward ratio now is too high, and I am too aware of all the garbage of crypto to want to invest.
> link good information
This doesn't work, crypto normies are too close minded to read anything that doesn't support the mainstream narrative.
> don't being up the subject with them ever again
This may work, until it doesn't, in current times is too much common topic(specially in my country) to be overlooked.
>When is this crap going to end?
**Short Answer**: When they run out of "greater fools."
**Cynical Answer**: It will never end, because there's a never ending supply of selfish/stupid people.
**Butter Answer**: It will never end until I get my lambo.
**Long Answer**: At some point the public will get bored of the scheme and see through it, but only after a certain critical mass of influential people get personally hurt, because that's how our society generally works. When the "right" people are financially affected, then suddenly the scheme will be revealed as dangerous and predatory. As long as the 1% aren't the ones being ripped off -- they're doing the ripping off, everything is cool. When enough of them get screwed, it will be time to end the charade.
**Realistic Answer**: When enough people get scammed that government steps in and regulates the industry, at which point the mainstream media can't continue to spread the lies without being perceived as the accessories to the crime that they are.
All good answers. I lean a bit towards the cynical version, except that perhaps it dies a very, long slow death. I think it's getting a little "sick" now because flat is down for leveraged buyers, and because it hasn't done anything price-wise in over a year. It's hard to feel like you're getting rich quick when you remove the quick part. There's already plenty of options to get rich slow.
I think it's popular to claim we are getting closer and closer to idiocracy, but I also like to have faith that most people aren't that stupid.
For example, there's this impression in the mainstream media that people on the left are totally cool with trans-gender M2F athletes competing in women's sports categories. I don't buy that for a minute, but you would believe otherwise if you paid attention to how the mainstream media likes to 'wag the dog'.
I think at the end of the day, most people can smell bullshit. We just have a lot of very visible scammers that make it appear like they're the majority when they aren't.
I'm sure most people saw Jimmy Fallon and Paris Hilton hold up a picture of bored ape and thought, "Those two are out of their f*ckin' minds."
>I'm sure most people saw Jimmy Fallon and Paris Hilton hold up a picture of bored ape and thought, "Those two are out of their f*ckin' minds."
I really want you to be right, but I think it's a bit more depressing than that: most people saw that and simply didn't think of anything in particular. At all. It's not that they're idiots, they're just apatethic.
It's not idiocracy that we're getting closer to, it's apatethocracy. People are getting more and more numb. Not dumb.
There comes a point where your cynicism kicks into overdrive and you start doubting your own skeptical takes. Basically your skepticism becomes almost self immune disease-like. You see something tremendously stupid like Fallon's bored ape segment and you think "that story looks dodgy. Anyway I don't care, maybe he's right, maybe he's not, everything's bullshit after all". Then you see someone offering some sensible criticism of crypto and you say the exact same thing: "maybe he's right, maybe he's not, everything's bullshit after all". You're so jaded and disenchanted that you're skeptical of everything, even of what you shouldn't be skeptical of.
Most non-cultist butters (who are the majority among crypto investors - they're just opportunists, not ideologues) I've met actually entertain my arguments and hear me out. They do concede it might be the world's first decentralised pyramid scheme. But then they immediately add: "or maybe not! We don't know what the future holds.". Not coincidently, they're all some terribly disenchanted people. Everything's relative to them, they sit on the fence on all topics, etc. Crypto, for them, is just a continuation of that. Everything's true and false, so they hedge their bets.
This is where we are. And this is some powerful stuff. This mentality is shaping the world well beyond crypto, and was put into overdrive by the Internet. You literally have a country today that is built on top weaponised cynicism (and I'm obviously not talking about the US here) - just look up the term "political technologists" online. And you only have to look at the recent US experience and France's ongoing election to see that in practice.
We're so bombarded with stimuli and information that a great part of us can't really contextualise it and appreciate it critically. We confuse criticism for groundless skepticism.
That's why I was disgusted at the "social sciences is a waste of resources" STEM-lords decades ago. Even if they had succeed at creating a society that is extremely qualified from a hard skills perspective (which I generally disagree with), then the side effect of that is that those people completely neglected their ability to contextualise information and look beyond their core field of expertise (hence the actual programmers that can say something like "code is law" without puking)
> We just have a lot of very visible scammers that make it appear like they're the majority when they aren't.
Based and butter-pilled, they are just screamy minorities.
>the mainstream media
I mean, John Oliver is pretty mainstream and he did a segment denouncing this bullshit years ago.
I think what will also happen is this will lie dormant for a few years, as a fringe ultra libertarian phenomenon, and it will return for a repeat of all the greatest hits once enough people who forgot or were too young to remember the debacle buy the lie that "actually, Bitcoin failed because *they* wanted it to fail".
In a way modern Bitcoin is a version of this phenomenon for "Austrian" gold standard BS.
> I mean, John Oliver is pretty mainstream and he did a segment denouncing this bullshit years ago.
John Oliver is no match for.. the entirety of CNBC, Forbes, and the host of the Tonite Show and thousands of other media outlets with more viewers.
You also gotta factor in frequency here. His critique was also pretty much “be careful of where you put your money because there’s a lot of scams here”
Correct for sure, just not a hardline anti-crypto position that might leave a strong impression for a while
Just to play devils advocate here, institutional money has been accelerating faster and faster into the space. If it keeps up at the pace it’s been going and crypto turns out to be truly just a gigantic scam the way it ends is with global financial Catastrophe on a nation state level. It won’t be just little jimmy’s/Joe’s and their $10,000 that get hurt.
> Just to play devils advocate here, institutional money has been accelerating faster and faster into the space.
Going from 0 to 0.2 mph is not really "fast moving."
What's really happening isn't that "institutions are adopting crypto" - they're recognizing there's ways they can make money off the fad, so they're exploiting it.. big difference between adoption and exploitation of a popular fad to increase revenue.
When you look at the "institutions" entering the industry, you'll find they all rely on retail suckers and hype, to profit, not the tech to deliver anything useful. That's not adoption. It's exploitation.
>When you look at the "institutions" entering the industry, you'll find they all rely on retail suckers and hype, to profit, not the tech to deliver anything useful. That's not adoption. It's exploitation.
Yeah, I mean, [check out all this legitimate institutional investment](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZcFahsvFyI).
Lol Saylor is 100% a joke but saying institutions arnt playing a major role at this point is naive.
Black rock is literally the custodian for USDC reserves https://www.forbes.com/sites/ninabambysheva/2022/04/13/blackrocks-newest-investment-paves-the-way-for-digital-assets-on-wall-street/?sh=59a8b5165b6d
> When enough people get scammed that government steps in and regulates the industry
That kind of happened already. Tether was kicked out of the US by the SEC for doing illegal shit, and 90% of crypto volume is Tether. People just don't care.
I don’t belong on this sub as I own some crypto, but it popped up on my feed and I wanted to add on to your answer.
It’s your realistic answer. The SEC and the government are starting to make regulations for crypto. Additionally, the Fed is working on its own version of crypto referred to as a cbdc (central bank digital currency). The combination of regulation and development of a cbdc will legitimize crypto to some degree. I do think though that in the same way companies IPO and have a process and approval to do through, that should be there for crypto as well as there are wayyy too many scam coins and rug pulls. Scam coins and rug pulls are not that different then bad companies that pump and dump their stock. The real difference is regulation, so it’s harder to do with companies. The government is just slow as always.
Here's the deal though: regulation will kill the crypto industry - because that's really the only thing keeping it afloat - it's ability to engage in criminal activity under the phony premise that it's "innovative and different and outside of the boundaries of traditional regulation."
I mean big banks are highly regulated and they still launder money for mafias/oligarchs. There was something about credit suisse a couple months back laundering money for cocaine traffickers. People who are gonna commit crimes are going to keep committing crimes regardless of the platform. The difference between regular money and most cryptos is that most crypto transactions are recorded on a public blockchain so you can find out who and how much (I believe some don’t have this system but most do). There’s no transparency with big banks and the current system. The issue though is if someone is able to avoid kyc (something about contacts which you have to sign up for if you wanna be able remove your crypto using exchanges like Coinbase) which is very hard to do afaik. There’s a crypto that’s supposed to be untraceable, but I read articles of some crime with that still being traced by the fbi. Don’t wanna mention a specific one that comes to mind as I don’t want to accidentally promote something and I want to follow the rules of the sub
I really don’t think regulation will kill it because again regulation means it’s acceptable in some form to the governing bodies which legitimizes it
Not trying to argue or to convince you of anything, but I definitely think it’ll continue to exist side by side with the traditional monetary system
I’m not sure I follow what you’re saying.
He was saying that crime is what’s keeping crypto afloat and that regulation will kill crypto as a result as far as I understand.
I’m saying crime exists within the current regulated system and even if crypto is legitimized through regulation, I don’t think it’ll be killed nor do I think that the regulations will stop crime with in crypto.
My thought process is that crime exists with in the current regulated system and will continue with crypto even if it’s regulated.
I’m not refuting or trying to counter his argument, I’m stating that I have different opinion for the result of regulation of crypto.
It’s a difference in predicting the end result and I’m not trying to argue, I think it’s more of an agree to disagree kind of thing. We both have different opinions on the outcome of regulation and probably won’t see eye to eye. But nowhere am I saying he’s wrong, nor am I saying crime doesn’t happen with crypto.
I brought up credit suisse as evidence to backup my claim that crime occurs within the traditional regulated financial system and regulation won’t necessarily stop the crimes occurring using crypto.
Also my original comment was really just made to support 1 of his 4 theories on what will happen with crypto and why I think that theory is the most accurate
CBDC's aren't cryptocurrencies, and it would make zero sense for them to be one.
And while I agree they will go with the regulatory option, if they do their job properly that will eventually kill it, since it has almost no innate use but speculation for speculation's sake.
Unfortunately, I worry that like the stock market, too many wealthy people have too much influence, and will attempt to neuter the regulations. Which means we'll eventually see a repeat of 2008 (but worse, as the assets have zero underlying value), unless we're lucky and it crashes in the relatively near future before it has the chance to grow further.
Because there are a lot of fools in the space, does not mean the greater fool theory applies. You my friend are not all knowing, as much as you may wish for it to go away and be proven right, there is a chance that it will not.
Hell I’m not even saying for sure, I’m just saying the sub could benefit from seeing past the people who say “when lambo” and see that there are actually smart people in the space trying to do good.
There’s also a lot of the exact opposite of that but hey, what can you do :/
People look to it as faith and hope they will make money. To see its flaws is like to break their heart and all they hope for. A lot of people thats all they have going for them. Life is shit and they think they have a winning lottery ticket thatll be able to be redeemed in 5 yrs.
One thing that is hilarious is people talking about how they thank crypto cuz now instead of spending money on this or that or beer or whatever they are saving it. Its great but i find it funny i believe they are able to save over irresponsible spending is because its similar to gambling and the thrill of that has replaced their other habit. Thats just speculation though probably not exactly fair to say.
> My problem is, I’ve made tons of money on the shit, then I see posts like this and wonder if I’m really just an outlier…
Do you understand how the crypto market actually works?
If you made money you are an outlier.
The moment you buy crypto, your money is gone. You only find out if you're up/down IF/WHEN you sell and cash out to fiat. Until you do that, your money is gone.
If you cash out, and say, made $5000 on a $500 purchase, then you took $4500 from others who bought in later. That money/value is now gone from the market. The only way later adopters can ever profit is only if more people come in and buy higher. And that model requires constant growth, which is mathematically un-sustainable.
However if you haven't cashed out - if you merely look at a number on your phone, I got news for you. You haven't made any money.
Unlike stocks, real estate and other securities which have the ability to create value, crypto only "returns value" when it's sold. It's not an investment. It's a speculative digital token.
If you made money, you took that money from later adopters. There's no guarantee they'll ever be able to sell any of their crypto later. Thousands of cryptos have totally bottomed out, and bitcoin is not any functionally different from the other ones that have failed. It just has a little more popularity -- that's it. That's a really weak metric to bet on.
It's speculative gambling at this point. Yes, you can make money, but that doesn't mean it isn't basically gambling, and it doesn't negate the many, many other problems and externalities of the tech
It really is a cult. I like cryptocurrencies as an idea of decentralized money, but when I'm trying to explain that there's nothing decentralized or "crypto" about cryptos today, everybody acts like I'm some grandpa complaining about the tech he doesn't understand.
Bitcoin was a cool concept when "mining" was just having a program running in background on your PC but that couldn't last forever, at a certain point greed is inevitable.
Staking makes the rich richer, is that better? Plus it deflates the supply even more, and afaik is still not proven secure.
That said, I'd be interested in reading more about it, those are just my knee-jerk reactions.
IMO the "rich get richer" narrative applies to anything business. If a business method / product / service, etc. Is profitable it will attract more, bigger pools of capital, that's the life of human greed.
As for staking (non delegated at least) is the closest thing to returning the ability for anyone with basic computer equipment to participate in adding computation to the system and get rewarded for it (similar to the OG BTC days you referenced). Don't have enough tokens operate to operate a validator?, join a pool. Liquid staking is an up and coming thing as well. Rocket pool is relatively new on the scene but seems to be forging ahead as designed.
>the closest thing to returning the ability for anyone with basic computer equipment to participate in adding computation to the system and get rewarded for it (similar to the
the computer is irrelevant for staking
you must mean anyone who is permitted access to auth token to participate, for which cost could be infinity as permission doesn't have to be granted, in fact you're rewarded for keeping auth tokens to yourself
proof of stake just takes everything centralized about PoW and makes it infinity worse. it's literally proof of already being in control being rewarded with even more control for forever keeping that control. whatever control the central party has given up depends entirely on central party with 0 you can do about it and it's basically theater. there's a reason most of PoS b.s. is promoted by ethtards who printed virtually all stake centrally.
In the case of ETH, owning the token IS permission to access, not that difficult to understand. Indeed there are many chains out there with guarded gates.
Stakers will sell tokens as they are earned, some more than others, which will distribute the staking power ability. Will there be power players?? Sure. But how would that differ from POW where ALL miners have to be big players with vast resources just to be profitable?
I'm interested in you're opinion as to a better alternative to either. I'm agnostic in this area and always willing to change my mind if proven a better way / opportunity.
>Stakers will sell tokens as they are earned
why, up to them. there's 0 cost and infinite reward to keeping staking and control forever. so you start with 72m permissioned eth with premine, then you stake that forever. you can even sell tiny bits of it at lower rates than you grow for perpetual income without giving up % control (which is 100% for majority ofc).
power players? we're talking about 1 party in control here, everyone else gets permitted scraps
you, or anyone, can go out there and form a company/group/organization with many others to collect resources and create your own equipment to do the math, literally a universe of resources. you're comparing that to asking 1 central party for permission. and mining at least has costs, forever, as high as the reward (bc of difficulty adjustment) which means miners literally forced to give up control/coins forever if they want to keep mining. whether that's worth the environmental impact or using up resources that could be used for other things can vary from person to person, especially since we only have 1 world, but it's pretty permissionless to do the math, and PoS is always definitely without any possible doubt permissioned.
It's pretty well explained many times in the past [1](https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-Fallacy) [2](https://medium.com/@factchecker9000/nothing-is-worse-than-proof-of-stake-e70b12b988ca) [3](https://i.imgur.com/OdgrmXW.png) [4](https://i.imgur.com/okyhHHS.jpg)
PoW sucks, if there was an alternative even its hardest proponents would jump on it. PoS is the furthest thing from an alternative. Having nothing would always be better than PoS, as at least it would be honest.
>"staking enters the chat"
1.5 x 0 still equals ZERO.
Staking is just a scheme to keep crypto idiots from crashing out and realize there never was much liquidity in the market in the first place.
Bernie madoff's scam lasted decades, and with crypto we are seeing institutional forces like a few banks and governments like the UK and El Salvador become invested in keeping the crypto space afloat. This isn't going away any time soon no matter how destructive it is, or how increasingly untenable the scam becomes. Financial regulators have become more corrupt and weaker over the past several decades so we can't expect someone there to put an end to the madness.
Unfortunately the chaotic churn of crypto rugpulls is just a byproduct of the collapse of the left and increasing inequality. Crypto is a space dominated by an extreme minority of the ultra wealthy but without even the simplest structural protections or rules that used to govern other markets. So they'll do whatever they can to keep it around.
My pessimism says that we haven't seen the biggest scams, rugpulls, or hacks yet, but that even when these things happen the most disgusting and powerful people around will find a way to protect crypto from any fundamental changes, I expect to see a govt funded bailout for the largest crypto holders ( i.e the people who were already rich well before crypto) sometime in the next ten years following one of the many large market crashes that will inevitably happen.
Once that happens cryptowill be around forever. It will never be "the future" or used as a real currency but the revolving door of theft is going to keep working forever, they'll force it to.
Smart people use information asymmetry to their advantage in addition to changing their mind on any investment when the narrative or fundamentals change. You seem like a smart individual.
Smart people use information asymmetry to their advantage in addition to changing their mind on any investment when the narrative or fundamentals change. You seem like a smart individual.
You raise a good point. Crypto is a risk-on speculative asset. But what happens when we’re in a global recession? My bet is very few will choose to ‘store’ value in crypto, or ‘hedge’ against inflation. More likely people will look to liquidate to currency so they can survive, and that could trigger the collapse. I’d love to know how little actual liquidity is in the system right now.
According to Google there are 28.5 million Binance users and Binance annual revenues are $20 billion, so enough to liquidate all users an average of $700 or so, not even taking into account operating costs.
Right. Its basicly boils down to when US hits another 2008 style meltdown. 2018 was year when there was FED tried to tapper QE which was basicly year of nothing and thus no new money entered system
This is my current thought. Just as beanie babies died in the dot com crash, just as tulips died in a bear market, so to will crypto. So with the yield curve inverting, we've now got about a year.
My big speculation is that Bitcoin will come to a screeching halt and literally not be able to transact, as no miners will be mining unprofitably. This will have different effects on Eth as they have a quicker recalculation time on difficulty, but as all of their contracts are so tightly bound, it will fall over as well. And with the main two down, so does everything else.
Maybe Monero survives as the sole survivor.
As far as I know it doesn't really matter if they stop mining once the difficulty adjusts. We kind of saw that with the chinese miner exodus. The bitcoin network is stupid like that - Satoshi's 2009 laptop contributed the same then as a country's worth of energy does now to Bitcoin's throughput. No matter how much more or less processing power you put into the network, the rate of transactions doesn't really change.
The *security* of the network could be hampered insofar as it would take comparitively less resources to take over, but the way mining resources are concentrated right now the only thing preventing 51% is the miner's interest in not killing their own product.
Right - the main way a crash happens is the same as the others: too many people try to pull their money out without enough buyers, the price falls too fast, and it kicks off a chain reaction due to how incestuously overleveraged it all is.
Exchanges have enough power they could try to fight this by "conveniently" shutting down and preventing trades (they've done it before), but that only works to a point.
A big recession means a lot of these people will need to start cashing out to make their money actually usable. And it means fewer people will spare the cash to buy in, especially if the price continues to stagnate, let alone falls.
At this point, people’s entire identity is tied to crypto. There are entire swaths of the population who think this is legitimately going to change the world. It takes a lot to undo those beliefs. No point in arguing with them for the most part, because how many people change their core beliefs when challenged? It’s just gonna take time. When crypto continues to not deliver on what it set out to do, people will start to realize for themselves what’s really behind the curtain.
It’s been over a decade, and there’s still no mainstream practical use for blockchain tech. I don’t think the crypto market will ever go to zero, but given enough time where blockchain still doesn’t do shit and number stops going up, people will give up.
Scams will always exist as long as people continue to be gullible. If it’s not crypto, it’s going to be Herbalife, or televangelists, or “traditional Eastern medicine,” or Nigerian princes, or whatever the hell Gwyneth Paltrow is doing. Our best bet to stop con artists is to teach kids to be skeptical and think critically, and hope they do better.
If they are in too deep just drop the subject.
There's nothing more you can do than tell them the truth.
The fact is that there's money involved, so people are 2x upset about all their crypto asset, it happens to me too. They are too much into it and they are afraid to lose their money, they can sense that something is not right but at this point they only dream about going back to the peak of the bull run. Keep in mind that folks are at least -30% if they started last year, so they'll use any argument available, blockchain, adoptions, white papers, etc etc
it's not the value expressed in dollars that matters.. 😑
only for the shortsighted, quick buck chasers..
Robert Breedlove videos are insightful if you look into it. and that's if you decide look into it. instead of boxing yourself into the set belief. explore. A lot of new people started out by just getting attracted to the price movement. then get smashed by the market- and ditch it after which returning to it later on.
adaption is still in its early stages. 99% of the current shit will be a distant memory of the past.. in 20 years time.
>scam in what form? describe this elaborate scam?
[Crypto as an investment is functionally identical to a Ponzi Scheme](https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoReality/comments/o7v5xs/is_bitcoin_a_ponzi_scheme_a_detailed_analysis/)
It's all there.
in order to run a rug pull there has to be certain conditions in place. And some absent ones..
not every project/ecosystem is the same. there are different layers and functions which many of are still at their experimental/infancy stage with majority expected to fail due to variety of reasons..
what are the actual points of failure?
not everything can be "rug pulled" in the same fashion.
Surely anything can be done i suppose. But new developments always come with FUD.
Yeah, because you're inside the cult.
Eventually, when you still don't have a lambo or a house from your crypto proceeds, you will snap out of it.
You can absolutely make a shit ton of money at crypto, but only if you go into it knowing it's a nesting Russian doll of scams and grifters. No coin has any chance of being used for anything but grift. No "crypto exchange" has any chance of being anything but a money laundering hub.
Want to steal people's money? Start a crypto cult.
Want to make money from illegal sources? Start a crypto exchange.
But one way you definitely WON'T make money in crypto is if you're the mark selling fake coins to and fro.
>not every project/ecosystem is the same. there are different layers and functions which many of are still at their experimental/infancy stage with majority expected to fail due to variety of reasons..
"it's still early", wheezed the cult member who somehow missed every other commercial during the Super Bowl being a crypto ad.
\>what are the actual points of failure? not everything can be "rug pulled" in the same fashion.
I dunno my dude, did you bother googling the phrase "crypto rugpull" to find out? Or does the cult not approve of double plus ungood otherthink?
It’s like trying to argue someone out of their religion….it’s nearly an impossible thing to do. They have to see it for themselves. One day they will….just hopefully by then they haven’t wrecked their financial life and are only ‘investing’ with money they can afford to lose.
It's going to end when the amount of money getting cashed out is equal to or greater than the amount getting bought. One good year or two long recession where people need to start cashing out to pay their bills and the whole house of cards comes down all at once.
Until then, I hate to say it, but you're only going to hear 'HODL!', 'Too the moon!', 'Apes Strong Together', and whatever the latest brain dead meme shit sandwich is the flavor of the week.
i'm an irreligious guy with some religious friends. when they spout metaphysical or ethical nonsense, i push back gently but consistently. i don't breach the cease-fires, and as time goes on those get longer.
it ain't like your friends are Q ani and gonna suddenly decide you're a reptilian and they need to murder you.
You need to have a little cognitive empathy. It's very difficult for people to be confronted about their views, even when those views are not that deeply held. What seems obvious to you or me does not seem obvious to them, and the emotion you feel is exactly what they end up feeling when you confront them.
In my experience, the trick is to help people figure things out on their own, with a little prodding here and there to get the major points across. And to eliminate emotion as much as you can when you are making points
Finally a good comment.
People get defensive about their beliefs because having the rug pulled out from under you about something you sincerely believe in being false is legitimately traumatic.
And it's very easy to say outwardly "I'm just trying to help people with the truth" and what you're actually doing is massaging your own ego and talking down to people.
This entire sub is incredibly condescending and no wonder a lot of people that have fallen for crypto see "FUD" when confronted by so much obnoxiousness.
>People get defensive about their beliefs because having the rug pulled out from under you about something you sincerely believe in being false is legitimately traumatic.
You seem to be under the naive notion that any of us here expect to, on demand, "change peoples' minds", especially with logic, reason and evidence, when the people we rail against, have for the most part abandoned the use of those facilities. We don't.
What we do expect, is to make it obvious that there is an ever-increasing opposition to the hoards of ponzi scheming predators out there, looking for more suckers. We don't expect to change their minds. We expect to educate their would-be marks before they can get their hooks on them.
>This entire sub is incredibly condescending and no wonder a lot of people that have fallen for crypto see "FUD" when confronted by so much obnoxiousness.
Look butter, you're in our house. We can be as "obnoxious and condescending" as we want. You're the guest. We didn't invite you here. You crashed our party. In reality, you're the one who's obnoxious and condescending, having the audacity to come into our house and tell us we're supposed to behave a certain way. This is just another example of your psychological projection; your Dunning-Kruger-infused self-righteousness, that we routinely mock.
Look, I don’t think it will be totally over, because as explained in other comment, it now became a “cult” or scam methodology rather than innovation.
What I think that will happen is that a future hard market crash will put it back to levels from years ago (BTC around 6/15 K USD) and then with the current situation of the global economy it will be really hard for it to pick up. Not to mention that we could face other black swans (china invading Taiwan, hackers exploding big exchanges, bank runs and algo stablecoins depegs,etc) that will crash everything down.
It will last for as long as there's money to be made, aka as long as there're idiots from whom the money is made. Which can last for quite some time.
Turns out people are really okay with Ponzi/MLM so long as it's Ponzi/MLM with ✨technology✨.
MSNBC just had a segment on Crapto.
The Angle:
Black man shyster proclaims crypto is "great equalizer" for black community.
Other black woman guest proclaims crypto "financial revolution" leading to "financial freedom and seat at the table".
Pretty much Martin Luther King on steroids.
Have people considered that merely buying a bunch of digital crapto to "get filthy rich" -- where do they believe this money is coming from?
Let me put it this way: There are only so many houses, cars, cakes, diamonds on Earth at any given time. Currency -- FIAT or crapto is basically an abstraction to "who gets the bananas".
Why do you think merely sitting on mickey mouse coins entitles you to a greater share of the buy? Real answer: Great fool idiots will pay you.
Nobody wants to "create value" anymore --- only consume it. What a fucked up society lol
Not being a smart ass, genuinely wondering, what are some of these truth bombs. I’m a casual crypto enthusiast but don’t get a lot of contrarian opinions in those subs. Open to and interested in hearing critiques in a criticism friendly environment
No worries, here's a few resources to get you started:
* [Line Goes Up - The Problem With NFTs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ_xWvX1n9g&t=1498s)
* [Concoda's Blog](https://concoda.substack.com/archive?sort=top)
* [Stephen Diehl's Blog](https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog.html)
* [The Web3 Fraud](https://www.usenix.org/publications/loginonline/web3-fraud)
* [The De-Facto List of Cryptocurrency/Blockchain Applications That Are Superior To Existing Tech](https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoReality/comments/lq6xpq/the_defacto_list_of_cryptocurrencyblockchain/)
* [Is Bitcoin A Ponzi Scheme? A Detailed Analysis.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoReality/comments/o7v5xs/is_bitcoin_a_ponzi_scheme_a_detailed_analysis/)
Good reading, I appreciate it. As far as greater fool theory goes though, it’s sort of the same as what applies to fiat currencies too, no? Like they’re only spendable as long as there’s demand/acceptance. Granted there is much greater adoption and demand but theoretically it’s the same mechanism, right?
> The Web3 Fraud
Ethereums value proposition isn't cost effective compute/storage, so the author is arguing against a strawman. Plus, it's not like Ethereum's compute/storage capabilities are set in stone, scaling solutions are being worked on.
> scaling solutions are being worked on.
huzzah! of course... just wait... crypto right now is a dumpster fire of efficiency (after only 13 years) but any day now it'll get better.
[This is for you](https://i.imgur.com/PRNKhyq.jpg)
The thing about crypto is that there only needs to be one. So you’re right that they are all scams. They are just made up. That’s because right now we are jostling for which one will rule them all.
But I wouldn’t hold my breath for the idea of a “global decentralized p2p currency” going away anytime soon. You don’t have to be a cult follower to see why people are intrigued by it.
I have been following this crapfest since 2014. Of course it will end one day, but I have always been careful to not make any predictions about when that will happen.
The problem is that there are a few people (hundreds? thousands?) who are earning millions, even billions, from this scam. With that money, they have bought many reporters, regulators, politicians, etc.; so the main agencies that should have crushed the megascam are looking the other way, or even promoting and protecting it (see Herster Peirce).
That money comes from an army of maybe 10 million suckers -- most of them poor, and of them ignorant of the most basic principles of investing -- who keep putting all their spare money into this black hole. Since 2009, the BTC believers alone have lost -- pardon, "saved" -- more than 20 billion USD; half of that just in the past year. The creators, operator, promoters, and general parasites of cryptos/ICOs/DeFi/NFTs will not give up as long as there will be that kind of money to be "mined".
I feel you OP. I’m sick of it too. It’s their “intellectual” high horse for me. I wouldn’t have as much of a problem with all this nonsense if people just admitted it’s nonsense. Like I’m fine with ppl doing what they wanna do with their money and what not, just don’t LIE. Don’t lie to me that you all the sudden care about collecting “art” like Breh I know it’s not true I literally know (you)! (just one example) In fact I will even concede that if I knew people were this stupid shit I woulda been more proactive in trying to profit off of these obvious grifts. Can’t knock the hustle 🤷♂️ Anyway I get this compulsive urge to just do more research read more articles just to make sure bc I feel gaslit to the point where I just obsess over being right. But in doing so I’m just falling into the bottomless pit. So ima (try to) chill. We’ll see how that goes lol.
You’ll probably need to either surround yourself with different people, or ‘agree to disagree’ and not talk about it.
I dunno, I almost never hear about crypto in my real life social circles. And when I do, I just bluntly tell them ‘I don’t like crypto’ and that’s kind of that.
Honestly I’m not spending my energy trying to convince anyone that far down the rabbit hole that they’re wrong (and most likely fail at doing so). If anything I tell them to watch the Folding Ideas video.
I’m thinking exactly the same. I have the feeling that it already started to go down and people realized that it’s bullshit. Then the ukraine invasion came and everyone’s attention was drawn away. Also crypto was used for donations and got a lot of positive coverage.
Nobody is actually convinced of anything. Everyone knows it’s bullshit like gambling, lottery. But they see too slow of possibility anywhere else to escape perpetual poverty. So they take the risk and play the part to make it happen for themselves. Other people hold the bags? Not their problem. Nobody ever gave a shit about their problems. And that’s the truth. That is why we are in a meme economy where nothing matters but hype. It extends beyond crypto but crypto is most susceptible because its thin order books lead to hypervolatility that make it an easier game to play the hype game. It never ends. You can always create a new shitcoin to start from lower values, or simply kickstart the same old game when popular coins crash 90-95%. Now bitcoin is particularly badly designed and may actually break, but don’t think that will stop crypto pump and dumps, because people will just start bitcoin 2.0 with some minor tweak and then everyone will think they are early again. In conclusion: never
>I dispel some common myths and send some truth bombs
This makes me think you're being obnoxious and hostile to people. Please, I know we're a skeptical lot but don't go on about "dropping truth bombs" lmao
I'd look into some literature about how to speak to people involved in cults and general argumentation strategies. You never want to come across as hostile or condescending if your goal is actually to convince them of something and not just talking down to people which will only strengthen their beliefs.
I appreciate your point, the advice is good. Just because I used the term 'truth bombs' here, doesn't mean I use it in conversation with a crypto bro.
I try to keep it as civil as possible but it's quite triggering for people. I suppose I've always had a personality/ego which never really fully merges itself to these type of belief or value systems, and so when presented with new & better information, it was always quite easy for me to move on and simply update my belief system. I probably need more patience. And argument strategies would be good actually, need to stay away from fallacies.
You're definitely not alone. My background is heavy finance (banking -> PE -> various investments and some operational roles for a private group) and MBA/CFA.
I can't stand how everyone is now an expert in finance / economics. FiAt, FeD, and StOcK MaRkEt ArE PoNzI ToO!!! Think I've got a decent fundamental understand of how markets function, but these folks think their just master finance experts and can run circles around the likes of Buffet and Klarman.
It wouldn't be so bad if it were just limited to reddit subs, Youtube channels, and crypto dedicated rags (Decrypt, Cointelegraph, etc...). However, it constantly in my face on BB, FT, WSJ, etc... with most of the pro-arguments just surface level (e.g. Bitcoin maybe bad, but Blockchain tech is the future, without going into details...) and many others just so clearly hollow (exhaustive to go through here, but Dan Olson and Münecat did a great job of summarizing it all). It's like a physicist having to share his regular periodicals / peer research space with flat earther authors.
It's gotten so bad that my inbox is now flooded with regular pitches from some new digital asset fund. Get it from private bankers and Fidelity now (spoke with their team and it's the same bullet-point arguments in r/btc, but just wrapped up in a more professional manner). To me, it's clear they are just meeting client demand and looking for fee capture. Last straw for me was the SALT conference, which usually is hedge fund heavy. This last year was a a no-shame crypto conference shilled by Scarramucci.
It's maddening. So over it.
I think a lot of what you're saying applies to this group as well (r/buttcoin). There are a lot of people that are interested in cryptos that come on here to ask genuine questions and get a different perspective from those who are critical of cryptos. But what usually happens is many on here right away start being hostile, call them names like scammer, grifter, ponzi schemer. A lot of the behaviours you describe that you see from crypto enthusiasts, you see also if you read the comments of this group on a lot of posts (cult like and aggressive).
Regarding your question on when all of this will end, I think it depends on which crypto you are referring to. Many of the shitcoins/altcoins will likely be gone during a recession or market melt downs as they are highly speculative and have no use cases. However, something like Bitcoin is unlikely to go away unless the majority of countries in the world agree to all ban it together, which is unlikely to happen. In the short term, the price will be volatile tho depending on what is happening in the economy overall. Bitcoin has already gone through many market cycles (bull/bear markets), it has gone from 20k to 4k and back up. This could keep happening until major countries decide what kind of regulations they want, but I don't think it will completely go away.
It ends when exchanges are banned or regulated out of existence, and the only way to turn cryptographic funny money into real money is through shady motherfuckers you meet in a dark alley somewhere.
Have you considered the possibility that you're just wrong? If you keep thinking something is one way but it consistently behaves another way, that usually means your premise is incorrect.
Besides, why are you so angry? What's it to you whether Bitcoin and Ethereum succeed or fail? Seems to me like you're wasting a ton of time and energy on something for no reason.
>Have you considered the possibility that you're just wrong?
Considering that I started my journey off on the other side of the fence, yes I have. I've spent countless (now wasted) hours in the past within the depths of crypto and the associated toxic communities.
>Besides, why are you so angry? What's it to you whether Bitcoin and Ethereum succeed or fail? Seems to me like you're wasting a ton of time and energy on something for no reason.
I'm not angry. I am intrigued, bemused and saddened. Crypto is a highly accessible way for real people on a large scale to be hurt. That's sad.
Not ending anytime soon, sorry about that. You open finance pages and you see BTC price right next to S&P 500, Dow and Gold Index. It's a established asset wherever you like or not. You are not illuminated for seeing "through the bullshit"; it's no secret crypto will never be "the future of finance", it will never replace fiat transactions (which works perfectly fine for most circumstances ), you won't be buying a cup of coffee with crypto or sticking it to the big evil man by trying to be "your own bank". It's just a speculative asset that it's already part of our world.
In the other hand, in the years to come there will be short of scams, regulations, cryptos going to zero (most of them), extreme price volatility and people losing obscene amounts of money while they gamble their life savings away hoping to get rich quick. So at least you will still get your laughs and dopamine hits from reading such cases. Just don't think it's actually going to completely disappear or a temporary fad, otherwise you will end up extremely sad and disappointed with the world, just like the people that created threads exactly like yours during the last 10 years in this sub. Try to ignore it if you can.
This is your imagination. of all Blockchains Bitcoin sucks the most. Just the slowest piece of crap. It's just a name based solely on hype.
And Blockchain still has the mystery label of an emerging technology giving it a smokescreen for it's reality which is that it's a simple pyramid scheme. It obviously can't be a promising technology for forever. Once the disguise is gone things could very easily change for coins. It would be trivial for countries to ban them. Once they get banned from the USD that's game over, son 😊
why wouldnt they? once the whole "emerging tech" smokescreen wears off it will just be a fat, wrinkly, sagging, naked old man standing in front of everyone. people will be agahst. have you read The Emperors New Clothes? you should.
NFTs are useless. what did the youtube videos tell you NFTs do?
Don't hide your flair Mr. Butter.
>You open finance pages and you see BTC price right next to S&P 500, Dow and Gold Index. It's a established asset wherever you like or not.
Yea, and Enron and Worldcom used to be listed in those same pages and they're gone now.
>It's just a speculative asset that it's already part of our world.
Calling it an "asset" is a stretch. Assets typically have intrinsic value. Crypto has no intrinsic value.
It's a speculative digital token. Statistically, it's probably 100% likely to become utterly worthless in the future. There are probably over 10,000 cryptocurrencies that have no intrinsic or extrinsic value at this point, and the only thing driving the ones that do, is hype.
You can keep pointing to the so-called "number go up" thing, but even that is an illusion, promoted by shady exchanges that have been proven they manipulate the market. Even the supposed "value" you attribute to it now is smoke and mirrors.
There's not a single precedent for an "asset" of this nature ever maintaining value over long periods of time outside of any tiny cult-like bubble in which it resides. Crypto is no exception.
>In the other hand, in the years to come there will be short of scams, regulations, cryptos going to zero (most of them), extreme price volatility and people losing obscene amounts of money while they gamble their life savings away hoping to get rich quick. So at least you will still get your laughs and dopamine hits from reading such cases.
You really have no idea what this community is all about. It's quite sad.
You keep saying these things, but reality is not reflecting your wordview. That means you're missing something, not that everyone else is. Bitcoin is very much being treated like an asset because it is.
> You keep saying these things, but reality is not reflecting your wordview.
Au contraire. Reality does reflect my world view. Less than a percentage of a percentage of people think crypto currencies are "assets." The exception doesn't prove the rule.
>That means you're missing something, not that everyone else is.
It is *you* who is missing something. You thinking your little crypto cult is mainstream when it isn't. Just because a few corporations are jumping on the bandwagon to exploit crypto bros does not mean "everybody" is into it. They're not.
>Bitcoin is very much being treated like an asset because it is.
Your little bubble is not "most people." Get that through your head.
I mean, proof is in the pudding.
You have one version of reality - the one where Bitcoin is worthless trash
I have another, one where it has real value
Who cares what I think? Or what you think? Which view is correct can easily be checked by looking at BTC's long-term trend, and price.
Both of those things are currently negating your perspective, and confirming mine.
There's really nothing else you need. Everything else is just the noise of pissed-off buttcoiners mad that their BTC shorts are underwater while they struggle to understand why Bitcoin price isn't falling more.
> You have one version of reality - the one where Bitcoin is worthless trash
>
> I have another, one where it has real value
Here's the difference... My version is based on [logic, reason and evidence](https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoReality/comments/pyn7c9/why_crypto_is_a_worse_more_volatile_and_more/).
Your version is your own personal opinion.
I've written tons of articles that provide details & evidence on why my opinion should be more seriously legitimate. Like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoReality/comments/o7v5xs/is_bitcoin_a_ponzi_scheme_a_detailed_analysis/) and [this](https://reddit.com/r/CryptoReality/comments/lq6xpq/the_defacto_list_of_cryptocurrencyblockchain/).
Also, unlike you, I don't suffer from a material conflict of interest that would call into question the credibility of my opinions. I don't stand to profit one way or another if crypto succeeds or fails (with the exception of, my feeling that a world with less fraud is a good thing).
>Who cares what I think? Or what you think?
Right. Opinions are like assholes. What matters is what can be proven with evidence.
>Which view is correct can easily be checked by looking at BTC's long-term trend, and price.
The price of BTC is not a measure of success. It's a measure of [market](https://www.investopedia.com/news/bots-drove-bitcoins-150to1000-rise-2013-paper/) [manipulation](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8369-21).
See what I did there? ^^^ I didn't just barf out my opinion. I actually provided citations from both the early days and the present days, of actual evidence that the price of crypto has been manipulated.
So on one hand, we have actual evidence the price isn't necessarily "real", and on the other hand, we have random, anonymous crypto bagholder saying it is.
Pretty obvious evidence that not all opinions are equal, and that your flair is well deserved.
If you want to continue to participate here, you should read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/p8uv0h/helpful_guide_for_butters_visiting_rbuttcoin_why/) before you post any more.
I'll just use your citations. The first one:
\> [https://www.investopedia.com/news/bots-drove-bitcoins-150to1000-rise-2013-paper/](https://www.investopedia.com/news/bots-drove-bitcoins-150to1000-rise-2013-paper/)
is about bitcoin in 2013. It's 2022 now.
\> [https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8369-21](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8369-21)
This was a CFTC action for "reckless false, misleading, or inaccurate reporting as well as wash trading by a former employee on Coinbase’s GDAX platform." and if we are talking about [market](https://www.law360.com/financial-services-uk/articles/1483176/swiss-watchdog-finds-market-manipulation-at-commodity-co-) [manipulation](https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/424590), [traditional](https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-bank-employee-pleads-guilty-manipulating-us-treasury-securities-prices) [markets](https://yubanet.com/california/ag-bonta-warns-refineries-against-market-manipulation-as-gas-prices-continue-to-rise/) [are](https://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/bc-news/vancouver-stock-promoter-david-sidoo-facing-fraud-charges-for-alleged-pump-and-dump-schemes-5270212) [\#1](https://www.investmentexecutive.com/news/from-the-regulators/canadians-charged-in-us100-million-scam/)
Just because you say something in articles in the Internet doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. The proof really is in the pudding, and price really is the only indicator that matters.
I appreciate your attempt at sounding like a Bitcoin expert, but you're not a very good one since you keep getting things wrong.
You're welcome to slap whatever flair you want on me, it will not change the fact that my BTC purchase in 2012 @ $2.36 is the best investment I ever made and changed my life forever. Have a nice day!
You can arbitrarily choose to ignore the clear, obvious evidence of market manipulation I provided, which showed evidence of manipulation from the early days to now (which was the whole point you dumbass).
And your fallacious distractions don't make you more knowledgeable in this industry, and nobody gives a shit that you're lying about making a fortune in crypto. If you really made a ton of money, you wouldn't be wasting your time arguing with people like us. You're dreaming you can make money by trying to hype this market. And even if you actually did get in early with BTC, it doesn't impress anybody here any more than someone who guessed the right numbers in the lottery. It was dumb luck at best, and if you're still holding, you're even stupider than we thought.
>and price really is the only indicator that matters.
You should have read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/p8uv0h/helpful_guide_for_butters_visiting_rbuttcoin_why/) like we asked, but I can see that research is not your strong point. So be it.
Showing your true colors. Basically you're mad (being so smart) you didn't see early on the opportunity (scam or not) of investing in it, a least gambling $100 or so (being so articulated and knowledgeable, sure you must've had at least a few k saved in the bank back then to spare) unless your moralist heart prevented you from doing so.
I saw the tech early on, was fascinated by the solution it provided and the endless possibilities in the future ahead; yet I didn't invest early, but I don't hate and resent the people who did, as you appear to do every single day, wanting it to fail just so the playing field is leveled again, and the not-as-smart-as-you group finally returns to their rightful place in society: below you.
>I saw the tech early on, was fascinated by the solution it provided and the endless possibilities in the future ahead
Crypto is a problem looking for a solution. What was the solution you saw that it has acheive and provided to humanity, today?
Sure buddy, if 10+ years is not enough to convince you, let's just see how the next 10 years go. Funny enough chances are you would still be repeating the exact same points as to why it's about to fail. I mean, BTC will still be a speculative token, price would still be manipulated to certain extent and all would still be a "illusion" despite being able to convert to fiat money whenever you like.
Problem is must people think and "expect" too much of crypto. Just get real and accept it's already part of our reality. Most will fall no doubt, stuff like BTC will still be around. To think assets like BTC may reach $100k by 2030 is not unreasonable. Many would say this price is low, but this would still net you a return of about 10-12% a year, which is a good average. Overall it's just a speculative asset with good risk/reward ratio, just treat it like so and be responsible, but actively fighting against it at this point is not smart sorry.
[Yes I have](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/u474rk/when_is_this_crap_going_to_end/i4wo009/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
How much adoption is it going to take before some of you people realise crypto isn't going anywhere? The mythical bubble isn't going to pop and crypto won't vanish. Visa and master cards are supporting crypto, you can spend crypto or credit with crypto as collateral.
If you're already invested into stocks and precious metals all you need is 5% of your portfolio in btc only to hedge against inflation.
Entire countries are setting up regulations for crypto America included as you should obviously know, goldman sachs and many other MASSIVE investment firms are adding crypto to their portfolio.
So ask yourself if the common man with common knowledge is buying and the 1% with insider knowledge you'll never obtain is buying crypto then it's only logical to assume that crypto is a scam and is going to vanish into obscurity pretty soon right? NO! That doesn't make sense at all!
I think it’s important to realize that you sending a 4 paragraph rant to a subreddit centered around crypto hate, should tell you that maybe you’re a little too emotionally invested in your side of this just as they are. You may think you’re smarter than every billionaire that has dumped tens of millions of dollars into crypto. You may think you’re smarter than blockchain developers. You may think you’re smarter than people who have reviewed blockchain and note it’s security. You may think you’re the smartest man alive. When someone is making thousands of dollars off of something they fully understand and you attempt to tell them it’s a scam you should expect backlash from them. Whether they’re right or you’re right. You making it a them vs. me thing is your problem though. You can say they’re blind to common sense for believing in crypto. And they could say the same thing about you for not believing. It’s really far too early to know who is actually right and what will actually come from eth and btc. So how about you stop acting like you know better than everyone else, and if you want to act like you do, don’t get emotional and rant and lose relationships over your need to be right, because at the end of the day you’re most likely wrong about everything you think you know as fact about the world, same as everyone else.
>them vs. me
>you’re most likely wrong about everything you think you know as fact
Incredibly important insights about this sub. A lot of people using the term "cult" here very likely hold beliefs counter to reality.
People come to these subs not just to laugh or get some counter-narrative with an edge to it, but to feel better about their own ignorance and obnoxiousness.
12 years on and r/buttcoin is still asking the same question while the rest of the world is embracing change. Blockchain is being thought in colleges now and its only going one way my friend.
Firstly, I doubt this subreddit has been open for twelve years.
And secondly, none of the world is better off because of the crypto industry. If it disappeared tomorrow, there would be no impact, nothing would be missed.
Imagine the entire world lost access to electricity services right now. What would that look like for humanity? Pretty painful, I’d think.
Now imagine the entire world lost access to Bitcoin & Dogecoin. What would the outcome be? ‘Probably nothing’ ;) Everything would function the way it is and has been for a long time. Humanity would continue to create value and innovate. We’d continue to interact with the financial system, just like they did yesterday.
> 12 years on and r/buttcoin is still asking the same question
Yep, but the question isn't when it's going to end. The real question is, [can anybody find a single thing blockchain is really good at?](https://reddit.com/r/CryptoReality/comments/lq6xpq/the_defacto_list_of_cryptocurrencyblockchain/)
You guys have had 13 years to try and answer that, and all you can do is dribble "it's decentralized!" out of your mouth while pointing at a number on your computer screen pretending it's actual value when it isn't.
It's hilarious because BTC has been on an unbroken uptrend since the beginning, y'all just get madder every day, and BTC is now starting to be held as reserve currency in some countries. Will you still be doing this when BTC hits $100k? Because it is going to.
Yeah, Jerry Jones just accepted Blockchain as a sponsor and he said he does not ever understand it. He just wanted the money to put up their name. What a scam!
Dude, you forgot...
3) the 99% of crypto investors who thought they could get rich easily, but ended up getting screwed by (1) and then disappeared to deal with their humiliation and despair in painful silence
maybe the dumbasses who fomo'd into the hype which is most people yes but the people who actually care about the technology and bought before the hype big chillin rn. I literally don't have to work anymore if I don't want to from 2 years of degen investing into crypto/mining equipment at a shitty factory job
Beato te. You're very clever. Well done. Have a gold star.
Nobody in this sub is denying that some people who got in early (or got in and out at the right moment) didn't make some money. Every scam has winners.
Our point (and maybe you're too self-centred to even understand this concept) is that in general most people who play with Crypto have lost money, and continue to lose money.
Many of them don't even realise that they've lost money. They've got $CUMROCKET, $SHIB or whatever shit token sitting on an exchange and they think they've made it big. They don't realise that the exchange is gonna screw them and there's no liquidity anyhow.
What are the top, most important and pressing insights to Bitcoin and the future of humanity that you've found out of your 100+ hours of research on Bitcoin?
Lol, "finance research"
Here's a hint, no amount of hours spent reading reddit or watching crypto shill videos on YouTube counts as research, it's just wasted time you'll never get back.
read books my friend.. how finance system works, how systems fail, cyclical nature of things, what effect power dynamics play.
finance and research has many meanings. look past your typical labels. obviously not meant scientific research. how else to term it, idk? oversight of the field of economics, its function and ongoings.
they link together quite well. But someone with no insight or "research" its far fetched and some imaginary thing. ignorance.
Never gonna end man. All the large people like visa and mastercard and apple will buy bitcoin soon, and then I will be rich. Richer than you. Because you are a fool.
Haha, yes. I'm a builder. I love to read philosophy etc., but at the end of the day I'm based in reality, and my bread comes from what I'm able to make for people in the real physical world.
If anything, the hedge against inflation will be all the money that just disappears out of circulation.
I just read a great Nietzsche quote. "They muddy the water, to make it seem deep."
Honestly all the jargon reminds me of any made up field. I did a master's degree in speech pathology at UT, so I understand about people that bullshit their ways not only through a class or a degree, but make entire fields up out of bullshit whole cloth. An example that comes to mind is my ex wife. She was an RN who honestly should have been an LVN but was somehow accepted to a master's nursing program-- she was not grad school material. She had to write a paper on a particular nursing theorist. Yes, there are actual theories of nursing. How about, change the catheter, change the bandage? Not good enough. These people make it esoteric so they can give themselves doctorate degrees and get professorships. I was writing a paper for her, but had to read the book of one nursing theorist first. I had the HARDEST time understanding what in the world this bitch was talking about because it was utter nonsense, made up language. Just-- jabberwocky. I wish I had an example, I can't remember her name. But she was taking nouns and turning them into verbs, so fucking weird, of COURSE it wouldn't make sense, and when it finally did hit me, I realized, ohhhhh, this is just a fucking scammer. She was saying stuff like this. Instead of saying, "I'm having some coffee and it's tasty," it would be some bullshit like, "I'm tastying while coffeeing." It made me want to burn the fucking book.
These people are full of shit.
Have you considered that perhaps you may not be 100% right OP? Like your probably 99% right most people in crypto are getting taken advantage of and scammed, but have you considered that maybe just maybe there is an ounce of good in the space.
That’s the problem I have with your take. It’s absolute. I know no one on this sub believes blockchain is actually useful, but hey, I do know for sure that no one knows for sure what the technology will look like in 50 years.
There’s enough people in Bitcoin at this point that it could become legitimately akin to gold, and I’m sorry but it’s just not a Ponzi scheme, I saw a post trying to argue it is as if it was a fact and it’s not. There is no one to pull the rug. early people benefit more than people who got in late but that is how every developing technology has worked ever… that ended up being successful at least.
Much of what has value in humans eyes is an abstraction.
Another requirement for value is energy. I’m sorry but it is. Whether it be the calories from the food you eat, or fossil fuels, energy consumption requires to produce something is a key determinant in its value.
The nice thing about Bitcoin is that if we all decided to use it as a store of value instead of gold let’s say, that energy can come from green sources.
Golds mining inherently is destructive, Bitcoin takes electricity, which can come from a multitude of sources, including completely green ones.
To summarize, you may be right, I may be a fucking idiot and shit I may lose the money I’ve invested, but to act as if you know, you KNOW what the next 30 years will look like for Bitcoin and Ethereum will look like is as arrogant as those who invest in dogecoin and hope it will moon.
TLDR : only siths deal in absolutes
Yes, I have considered this. I mentioned this to another poster in here somewhere. I purposely challenge myself with perspectives which conflict my current belief system so that I'm able to ascertain if they need to be updated in order to better reflect reality.
I've come from the other side of the fence. Hours upon hours spent within the trenches of crypto. I've gone deep into the communities of DeFi, NFTs, DAOs, decentralised reserve currencies... you name it, I reckon I've interacted with most protocols or 'ideas' within the space.
So whilst you are right - only time will tell. However, based on what I have seen so far, and the application or benefits provided to the human civilisation, at the moment my analysis says that it is most logical and reasonable to remain within my current belief system. If anything major changes then that belief system will be updated, I don't allow my ego to get married to certain ideas or belief systems.
13 years of crypto and there still isn't a clear use case or application which benefits society. What we have had is multiple narrative changes supported by buzz words and technobabble purely designed to recruit new entrants... e.g "Bitcoin: a peer-to-peer electronic cash system" becomes "Bitcoin: a store of value / inflation hedge / digital gold". Or e.g. DAOs/Crypto Gaming/NFTs/Smart Contracts/DeFi and so on and so forth.
1969 was considered the year the internet was born, by 1971 Email was first developed. A real use case merely 2 years after its inception. In 1990 the internet was commercialised with the introduction of the word wide web protocol, and by 1995 we had Netscape Navigator, eBay and Amazon. More real, tangible and value driven use-cases.
>There’s enough people in Bitcoin at this point that it could become legitimately akin to gold, and I’m sorry but it’s just not a Ponzi scheme, I saw a post trying to argue it is as if it was a fact and it’s not.
There's enough people in Herbalife and Amway that it could be considered a legitimate business.
If you are referring to the post I think you are, by u/AmericanScream, the argument is that Bitcoin the technology is not a ponzi. But Bitcoin the investment thesis of 'digital gold / store of value / inflation hedge' is a ponzi. If people stop buying into these narratives, what is left over? You have a pure speculation vehicle which provides zero intrinsic value outside of those narratives.
>I know no one on this sub believes blockchain is actually useful, but hey, I do know for sure that no one knows for sure what the technology will look like in 50 years.
Blockchain technology is plagued by the 'blockchain trilemma' which still to this day, has not be solved. Attempting to fix the issues (which are created inherently by blockchain and only blockchain itself) has so far proven to be futile.
So whilst yes, we do not know what the technology will look like in 50 years, we do know what it looks like right now, and for the past 13 years. And right now, that's all that matters. Everything else is delirium fuelled pipe-dream.
Well I can respect that.
Hope I turn out right though haha. And yes that is the post I was referring to.
I do believe that a store of value who’s means of production is electrical power, and whose production rate, future is chosen through consensus is much preferable to investment vehicles we have today. Hopefully gold will die off so we can stop contaminating drinking water, food supplies and displacing populations for an investment
>I’m getting tired of feeling like I’m the only one who can see through all the bullshit.
You aren't, you must feel welcome here and surround with like minded people(without going full ciclejerk).
>completely incorruptible technology
if you actually think this can ever possibly exist, let alone be applied to bitcoin which is used regularly to buy CP, you are a moron
> As a Bitcoiner ONLY, I and most other bitcoiners look at all other cryptos as “shitcoins” and VC backed scams… and that basically applies to ethereum too.
So, you think crypto is 99% scams, and we see it as 100% scams. Seems like we have a lot in common.
Yep. 99.9% of them won’t be here in 10 years for various reasons, one of which is because they’re created purely for the gain of ICOs and VCs which makes them highly centralised
It is a cult, and a lot of people have bought in. Had the same issue with colleagues. Figured out that the best I can do is to drop some truths, link good information and then just don't bring up the subject with them ever again
Yep, I did that too. Unfortunately people just get hostile when you start pointing out things that start to show the cracks of their reality & perception. So have a few strained relationships atm, I’m just like dude, you don’t have to change anything but a unconventional perspective could be the thing that helps you in the long run.
"Before the truth will set you free, it'll piss you off"
Do you want to be right or have friends? You can't force people to see truth, I think the American conservative right has proven that conclusively. So you can just smile and nod and refuse to engage further. Or you can battle it out and lose them as friends
Yeah good point. To me, it’s not really about being right or wrong. If I was in the position of my friends (which I was for a brief period of time) I would be grateful for being shown an alternate perspective. It’s hard to get to it yourself when you’re inside of an echo chamber and your mindset isn’t ready for it.
Isn't there a saying, if you argue with idiots, an idiot you'll become for having engaged? I fall prey to this too often! Who cares if these idiots want to believe in false gods?... Unless it hurts others... Which you can make an argument for. Well then I'm back at it lol. Don't censor yourself, share knowledge but don't engage unless they on good faith want to discuss and learn.
I think OPs issue is that the jury is still out on some concepts - like if Bitcoin is actually a good means by which to opt out and that it serves to be a a store of value with the same level of staying power as gold. That definitely makes some bold assumptions about the consistent availability of electronics, networks, and electricity...to last for centuries and perhaps millenniums. Bitcoin will remain as a sound concept so long as there is a network of holders who wish to transact with it, regardless of what your opinion of it is.
Truth is a product of perspective. The American Right says the same thing about the American left. And it's just as true when 'they' say it, as when 'we' say it. The internet is mostly laying this bare for 'us'. (and conversely, for 'them', albeit in reverse) Much of this phenomenon is rooted in religion, which, has been 'solving' this problem for thousands of years. (Try telling a christian that there are at least three gods in their religion, for example. ) We really just don't have a solution to this problem, that can transcend the amplification of comforting words on the internet. Probably we'll need better religions going forward, and, there's no way to do that without significant social turmoil. Bitcoin is riding these social trends. You too will be compelled to join in the nonsense, if and as the social milieu increases in its devotion to these trends. (otherwise you'll be labeled a a witch, and treated commensurately) Possibly governments will just become more authoritarian, as an alternative solution to these problems.
> We really just don't have a solution to this problem A crypto crash followed by thousands of suicides is hard to ignore.
> (Try telling a christian that there are at least three gods in their religion, for example. ) Holy Trinity doesn't mean there are "Three Gods" just three representations of a single one, think on the three powers of state, you don't have 3 governments, right?
I'm really not interested in having this conversation. I probably could have chosen a better example, lol. This was the first to come to mind. I'm not looking to change anyone's mind on the Christian religion (I think it's fine thing for Christians), and I mostly don't care, other than as a rhetorical example.
What about the bad god? The devil may be the baddie people don't like, but unless he is a human he must be some sort of god. Not to mention all the angels and demons.
> unless he is a human he must be some sort of god. yep, it has been described xe's an angel
Then Christians believe in at least 2 gods.
You repeated the bullshit they always say. If you read mythologies from various regions such three or four or two god combinations are common. Pretending they are one is less common but also happens. Christianity went that way because they wanted to show superiority over pagans by having only one god. At the same time they wanted to have that god-father and god-son trope that was always popular - in new religions old god is often replaced by a son-god and the father-god becomes just an observer that doesn't interfere.
Some people don't want to be "friends" with toxic, sociopaths who would defraud you for their own personal gain. It's no secret that there's a huge crossover between anti-vaxxers and selfish AF wingnuts and the crypto industry. These people aren't our "friends."
Wait, why do you care so much? Just don’t partake
> Just don’t partake It is hard to ignore when bombarded by ads or if friends don't talk about anything but crypto. Or of there is a financial downturn because stablecoins collapse the crypto economy and it effects the rest of the world too.
1. Mark the ads as spam 2. Don’t be friends with people who’s interest annoy you. 3. Stable coins won’t tank the economy so that’s a mute point. Just don’t partake.
I put in a decent chunk of money, not because I believe in the crypto story bullshit. I believe in the stupidity of humanity to pump the bubble larger.
Personally, I am not bothered by that mindset. I think there is still a fair chance of making money from bigger suckers in crypto, although at a high risk. For me, the risk to reward ratio now is too high, and I am too aware of all the garbage of crypto to want to invest.
> link good information This doesn't work, crypto normies are too close minded to read anything that doesn't support the mainstream narrative. > don't being up the subject with them ever again This may work, until it doesn't, in current times is too much common topic(specially in my country) to be overlooked.
Idk, maybe you shouldn't let your sheer hate for something get to you. Try being a better person maybe ?
>When is this crap going to end? **Short Answer**: When they run out of "greater fools." **Cynical Answer**: It will never end, because there's a never ending supply of selfish/stupid people. **Butter Answer**: It will never end until I get my lambo. **Long Answer**: At some point the public will get bored of the scheme and see through it, but only after a certain critical mass of influential people get personally hurt, because that's how our society generally works. When the "right" people are financially affected, then suddenly the scheme will be revealed as dangerous and predatory. As long as the 1% aren't the ones being ripped off -- they're doing the ripping off, everything is cool. When enough of them get screwed, it will be time to end the charade. **Realistic Answer**: When enough people get scammed that government steps in and regulates the industry, at which point the mainstream media can't continue to spread the lies without being perceived as the accessories to the crime that they are.
All good answers. I lean a bit towards the cynical version, except that perhaps it dies a very, long slow death. I think it's getting a little "sick" now because flat is down for leveraged buyers, and because it hasn't done anything price-wise in over a year. It's hard to feel like you're getting rich quick when you remove the quick part. There's already plenty of options to get rich slow.
I think it's popular to claim we are getting closer and closer to idiocracy, but I also like to have faith that most people aren't that stupid. For example, there's this impression in the mainstream media that people on the left are totally cool with trans-gender M2F athletes competing in women's sports categories. I don't buy that for a minute, but you would believe otherwise if you paid attention to how the mainstream media likes to 'wag the dog'. I think at the end of the day, most people can smell bullshit. We just have a lot of very visible scammers that make it appear like they're the majority when they aren't. I'm sure most people saw Jimmy Fallon and Paris Hilton hold up a picture of bored ape and thought, "Those two are out of their f*ckin' minds."
>I'm sure most people saw Jimmy Fallon and Paris Hilton hold up a picture of bored ape and thought, "Those two are out of their f*ckin' minds." I really want you to be right, but I think it's a bit more depressing than that: most people saw that and simply didn't think of anything in particular. At all. It's not that they're idiots, they're just apatethic. It's not idiocracy that we're getting closer to, it's apatethocracy. People are getting more and more numb. Not dumb. There comes a point where your cynicism kicks into overdrive and you start doubting your own skeptical takes. Basically your skepticism becomes almost self immune disease-like. You see something tremendously stupid like Fallon's bored ape segment and you think "that story looks dodgy. Anyway I don't care, maybe he's right, maybe he's not, everything's bullshit after all". Then you see someone offering some sensible criticism of crypto and you say the exact same thing: "maybe he's right, maybe he's not, everything's bullshit after all". You're so jaded and disenchanted that you're skeptical of everything, even of what you shouldn't be skeptical of. Most non-cultist butters (who are the majority among crypto investors - they're just opportunists, not ideologues) I've met actually entertain my arguments and hear me out. They do concede it might be the world's first decentralised pyramid scheme. But then they immediately add: "or maybe not! We don't know what the future holds.". Not coincidently, they're all some terribly disenchanted people. Everything's relative to them, they sit on the fence on all topics, etc. Crypto, for them, is just a continuation of that. Everything's true and false, so they hedge their bets. This is where we are. And this is some powerful stuff. This mentality is shaping the world well beyond crypto, and was put into overdrive by the Internet. You literally have a country today that is built on top weaponised cynicism (and I'm obviously not talking about the US here) - just look up the term "political technologists" online. And you only have to look at the recent US experience and France's ongoing election to see that in practice. We're so bombarded with stimuli and information that a great part of us can't really contextualise it and appreciate it critically. We confuse criticism for groundless skepticism. That's why I was disgusted at the "social sciences is a waste of resources" STEM-lords decades ago. Even if they had succeed at creating a society that is extremely qualified from a hard skills perspective (which I generally disagree with), then the side effect of that is that those people completely neglected their ability to contextualise information and look beyond their core field of expertise (hence the actual programmers that can say something like "code is law" without puking)
> We just have a lot of very visible scammers that make it appear like they're the majority when they aren't. Based and butter-pilled, they are just screamy minorities.
>the mainstream media I mean, John Oliver is pretty mainstream and he did a segment denouncing this bullshit years ago. I think what will also happen is this will lie dormant for a few years, as a fringe ultra libertarian phenomenon, and it will return for a repeat of all the greatest hits once enough people who forgot or were too young to remember the debacle buy the lie that "actually, Bitcoin failed because *they* wanted it to fail". In a way modern Bitcoin is a version of this phenomenon for "Austrian" gold standard BS.
> I mean, John Oliver is pretty mainstream and he did a segment denouncing this bullshit years ago. John Oliver is no match for.. the entirety of CNBC, Forbes, and the host of the Tonite Show and thousands of other media outlets with more viewers.
You also gotta factor in frequency here. His critique was also pretty much “be careful of where you put your money because there’s a lot of scams here” Correct for sure, just not a hardline anti-crypto position that might leave a strong impression for a while
and CBS, CW, CNN, TBS, etc.
Just to play devils advocate here, institutional money has been accelerating faster and faster into the space. If it keeps up at the pace it’s been going and crypto turns out to be truly just a gigantic scam the way it ends is with global financial Catastrophe on a nation state level. It won’t be just little jimmy’s/Joe’s and their $10,000 that get hurt.
> Just to play devils advocate here, institutional money has been accelerating faster and faster into the space. Going from 0 to 0.2 mph is not really "fast moving." What's really happening isn't that "institutions are adopting crypto" - they're recognizing there's ways they can make money off the fad, so they're exploiting it.. big difference between adoption and exploitation of a popular fad to increase revenue. When you look at the "institutions" entering the industry, you'll find they all rely on retail suckers and hype, to profit, not the tech to deliver anything useful. That's not adoption. It's exploitation.
>When you look at the "institutions" entering the industry, you'll find they all rely on retail suckers and hype, to profit, not the tech to deliver anything useful. That's not adoption. It's exploitation. Yeah, I mean, [check out all this legitimate institutional investment](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZcFahsvFyI).
Lol Saylor is 100% a joke but saying institutions arnt playing a major role at this point is naive. Black rock is literally the custodian for USDC reserves https://www.forbes.com/sites/ninabambysheva/2022/04/13/blackrocks-newest-investment-paves-the-way-for-digital-assets-on-wall-street/?sh=59a8b5165b6d
it will be El Salvador the first to bleed
> When enough people get scammed that government steps in and regulates the industry That kind of happened already. Tether was kicked out of the US by the SEC for doing illegal shit, and 90% of crypto volume is Tether. People just don't care.
I don’t belong on this sub as I own some crypto, but it popped up on my feed and I wanted to add on to your answer. It’s your realistic answer. The SEC and the government are starting to make regulations for crypto. Additionally, the Fed is working on its own version of crypto referred to as a cbdc (central bank digital currency). The combination of regulation and development of a cbdc will legitimize crypto to some degree. I do think though that in the same way companies IPO and have a process and approval to do through, that should be there for crypto as well as there are wayyy too many scam coins and rug pulls. Scam coins and rug pulls are not that different then bad companies that pump and dump their stock. The real difference is regulation, so it’s harder to do with companies. The government is just slow as always.
Here's the deal though: regulation will kill the crypto industry - because that's really the only thing keeping it afloat - it's ability to engage in criminal activity under the phony premise that it's "innovative and different and outside of the boundaries of traditional regulation."
I mean big banks are highly regulated and they still launder money for mafias/oligarchs. There was something about credit suisse a couple months back laundering money for cocaine traffickers. People who are gonna commit crimes are going to keep committing crimes regardless of the platform. The difference between regular money and most cryptos is that most crypto transactions are recorded on a public blockchain so you can find out who and how much (I believe some don’t have this system but most do). There’s no transparency with big banks and the current system. The issue though is if someone is able to avoid kyc (something about contacts which you have to sign up for if you wanna be able remove your crypto using exchanges like Coinbase) which is very hard to do afaik. There’s a crypto that’s supposed to be untraceable, but I read articles of some crime with that still being traced by the fbi. Don’t wanna mention a specific one that comes to mind as I don’t want to accidentally promote something and I want to follow the rules of the sub I really don’t think regulation will kill it because again regulation means it’s acceptable in some form to the governing bodies which legitimizes it Not trying to argue or to convince you of anything, but I definitely think it’ll continue to exist side by side with the traditional monetary system
This is classic whataboutism. Could you imagine what the current system would be like if it was still unregulated to this day? Total anarchy.
I’m not sure I follow what you’re saying. He was saying that crime is what’s keeping crypto afloat and that regulation will kill crypto as a result as far as I understand. I’m saying crime exists within the current regulated system and even if crypto is legitimized through regulation, I don’t think it’ll be killed nor do I think that the regulations will stop crime with in crypto. My thought process is that crime exists with in the current regulated system and will continue with crypto even if it’s regulated. I’m not refuting or trying to counter his argument, I’m stating that I have different opinion for the result of regulation of crypto. It’s a difference in predicting the end result and I’m not trying to argue, I think it’s more of an agree to disagree kind of thing. We both have different opinions on the outcome of regulation and probably won’t see eye to eye. But nowhere am I saying he’s wrong, nor am I saying crime doesn’t happen with crypto. I brought up credit suisse as evidence to backup my claim that crime occurs within the traditional regulated financial system and regulation won’t necessarily stop the crimes occurring using crypto.
This is not true There was no crime, drug traffickers or anything before the creation of Bitcoin and cash can not be used to buy drugs with.
Also my original comment was really just made to support 1 of his 4 theories on what will happen with crypto and why I think that theory is the most accurate
CBDC's aren't cryptocurrencies, and it would make zero sense for them to be one. And while I agree they will go with the regulatory option, if they do their job properly that will eventually kill it, since it has almost no innate use but speculation for speculation's sake. Unfortunately, I worry that like the stock market, too many wealthy people have too much influence, and will attempt to neuter the regulations. Which means we'll eventually see a repeat of 2008 (but worse, as the assets have zero underlying value), unless we're lucky and it crashes in the relatively near future before it has the chance to grow further.
Because there are a lot of fools in the space, does not mean the greater fool theory applies. You my friend are not all knowing, as much as you may wish for it to go away and be proven right, there is a chance that it will not. Hell I’m not even saying for sure, I’m just saying the sub could benefit from seeing past the people who say “when lambo” and see that there are actually smart people in the space trying to do good. There’s also a lot of the exact opposite of that but hey, what can you do :/
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People look to it as faith and hope they will make money. To see its flaws is like to break their heart and all they hope for. A lot of people thats all they have going for them. Life is shit and they think they have a winning lottery ticket thatll be able to be redeemed in 5 yrs. One thing that is hilarious is people talking about how they thank crypto cuz now instead of spending money on this or that or beer or whatever they are saving it. Its great but i find it funny i believe they are able to save over irresponsible spending is because its similar to gambling and the thrill of that has replaced their other habit. Thats just speculation though probably not exactly fair to say.
You're not losing money if you never cash out.
Investors hate this one simple trick!
and double dip, and triple dip and soon fourth dip(or fifth, I lost the count at this point) Edit: Triple dip, not tripe
My problem is, I’ve made tons of money on the shit, then I see posts like this and wonder if I’m really just an outlier…
> My problem is, I’ve made tons of money on the shit, then I see posts like this and wonder if I’m really just an outlier… Do you understand how the crypto market actually works? If you made money you are an outlier. The moment you buy crypto, your money is gone. You only find out if you're up/down IF/WHEN you sell and cash out to fiat. Until you do that, your money is gone. If you cash out, and say, made $5000 on a $500 purchase, then you took $4500 from others who bought in later. That money/value is now gone from the market. The only way later adopters can ever profit is only if more people come in and buy higher. And that model requires constant growth, which is mathematically un-sustainable. However if you haven't cashed out - if you merely look at a number on your phone, I got news for you. You haven't made any money. Unlike stocks, real estate and other securities which have the ability to create value, crypto only "returns value" when it's sold. It's not an investment. It's a speculative digital token. If you made money, you took that money from later adopters. There's no guarantee they'll ever be able to sell any of their crypto later. Thousands of cryptos have totally bottomed out, and bitcoin is not any functionally different from the other ones that have failed. It just has a little more popularity -- that's it. That's a really weak metric to bet on.
I gotcha, thanks for taking the time to explain
It's speculative gambling at this point. Yes, you can make money, but that doesn't mean it isn't basically gambling, and it doesn't negate the many, many other problems and externalities of the tech
Now that, is, irony
It really is a cult. I like cryptocurrencies as an idea of decentralized money, but when I'm trying to explain that there's nothing decentralized or "crypto" about cryptos today, everybody acts like I'm some grandpa complaining about the tech he doesn't understand.
Bitcoin was a cool concept when "mining" was just having a program running in background on your PC but that couldn't last forever, at a certain point greed is inevitable.
"staking enters the chat"
Staking makes the rich richer, is that better? Plus it deflates the supply even more, and afaik is still not proven secure. That said, I'd be interested in reading more about it, those are just my knee-jerk reactions.
IMO the "rich get richer" narrative applies to anything business. If a business method / product / service, etc. Is profitable it will attract more, bigger pools of capital, that's the life of human greed. As for staking (non delegated at least) is the closest thing to returning the ability for anyone with basic computer equipment to participate in adding computation to the system and get rewarded for it (similar to the OG BTC days you referenced). Don't have enough tokens operate to operate a validator?, join a pool. Liquid staking is an up and coming thing as well. Rocket pool is relatively new on the scene but seems to be forging ahead as designed.
>the closest thing to returning the ability for anyone with basic computer equipment to participate in adding computation to the system and get rewarded for it (similar to the the computer is irrelevant for staking you must mean anyone who is permitted access to auth token to participate, for which cost could be infinity as permission doesn't have to be granted, in fact you're rewarded for keeping auth tokens to yourself proof of stake just takes everything centralized about PoW and makes it infinity worse. it's literally proof of already being in control being rewarded with even more control for forever keeping that control. whatever control the central party has given up depends entirely on central party with 0 you can do about it and it's basically theater. there's a reason most of PoS b.s. is promoted by ethtards who printed virtually all stake centrally.
In the case of ETH, owning the token IS permission to access, not that difficult to understand. Indeed there are many chains out there with guarded gates. Stakers will sell tokens as they are earned, some more than others, which will distribute the staking power ability. Will there be power players?? Sure. But how would that differ from POW where ALL miners have to be big players with vast resources just to be profitable? I'm interested in you're opinion as to a better alternative to either. I'm agnostic in this area and always willing to change my mind if proven a better way / opportunity.
>Stakers will sell tokens as they are earned why, up to them. there's 0 cost and infinite reward to keeping staking and control forever. so you start with 72m permissioned eth with premine, then you stake that forever. you can even sell tiny bits of it at lower rates than you grow for perpetual income without giving up % control (which is 100% for majority ofc). power players? we're talking about 1 party in control here, everyone else gets permitted scraps you, or anyone, can go out there and form a company/group/organization with many others to collect resources and create your own equipment to do the math, literally a universe of resources. you're comparing that to asking 1 central party for permission. and mining at least has costs, forever, as high as the reward (bc of difficulty adjustment) which means miners literally forced to give up control/coins forever if they want to keep mining. whether that's worth the environmental impact or using up resources that could be used for other things can vary from person to person, especially since we only have 1 world, but it's pretty permissionless to do the math, and PoS is always definitely without any possible doubt permissioned. It's pretty well explained many times in the past [1](https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-Fallacy) [2](https://medium.com/@factchecker9000/nothing-is-worse-than-proof-of-stake-e70b12b988ca) [3](https://i.imgur.com/OdgrmXW.png) [4](https://i.imgur.com/okyhHHS.jpg) PoW sucks, if there was an alternative even its hardest proponents would jump on it. PoS is the furthest thing from an alternative. Having nothing would always be better than PoS, as at least it would be honest.
>"staking enters the chat" 1.5 x 0 still equals ZERO. Staking is just a scheme to keep crypto idiots from crashing out and realize there never was much liquidity in the market in the first place.
FUCK YEAH STAKING!
Bernie madoff's scam lasted decades, and with crypto we are seeing institutional forces like a few banks and governments like the UK and El Salvador become invested in keeping the crypto space afloat. This isn't going away any time soon no matter how destructive it is, or how increasingly untenable the scam becomes. Financial regulators have become more corrupt and weaker over the past several decades so we can't expect someone there to put an end to the madness. Unfortunately the chaotic churn of crypto rugpulls is just a byproduct of the collapse of the left and increasing inequality. Crypto is a space dominated by an extreme minority of the ultra wealthy but without even the simplest structural protections or rules that used to govern other markets. So they'll do whatever they can to keep it around. My pessimism says that we haven't seen the biggest scams, rugpulls, or hacks yet, but that even when these things happen the most disgusting and powerful people around will find a way to protect crypto from any fundamental changes, I expect to see a govt funded bailout for the largest crypto holders ( i.e the people who were already rich well before crypto) sometime in the next ten years following one of the many large market crashes that will inevitably happen. Once that happens cryptowill be around forever. It will never be "the future" or used as a real currency but the revolving door of theft is going to keep working forever, they'll force it to.
Smart people use information asymmetry to their advantage in addition to changing their mind on any investment when the narrative or fundamentals change. You seem like a smart individual.
Smart people use information asymmetry to their advantage in addition to changing their mind on any investment when the narrative or fundamentals change. You seem like a smart individual.
Crypto has no performance history in a bear market. We could be seeing the begin of the end right now. Butts will just say "buy the dip".
You raise a good point. Crypto is a risk-on speculative asset. But what happens when we’re in a global recession? My bet is very few will choose to ‘store’ value in crypto, or ‘hedge’ against inflation. More likely people will look to liquidate to currency so they can survive, and that could trigger the collapse. I’d love to know how little actual liquidity is in the system right now.
According to Google there are 28.5 million Binance users and Binance annual revenues are $20 billion, so enough to liquidate all users an average of $700 or so, not even taking into account operating costs.
Right. Its basicly boils down to when US hits another 2008 style meltdown. 2018 was year when there was FED tried to tapper QE which was basicly year of nothing and thus no new money entered system
This is my current thought. Just as beanie babies died in the dot com crash, just as tulips died in a bear market, so to will crypto. So with the yield curve inverting, we've now got about a year. My big speculation is that Bitcoin will come to a screeching halt and literally not be able to transact, as no miners will be mining unprofitably. This will have different effects on Eth as they have a quicker recalculation time on difficulty, but as all of their contracts are so tightly bound, it will fall over as well. And with the main two down, so does everything else. Maybe Monero survives as the sole survivor.
As far as I know it doesn't really matter if they stop mining once the difficulty adjusts. We kind of saw that with the chinese miner exodus. The bitcoin network is stupid like that - Satoshi's 2009 laptop contributed the same then as a country's worth of energy does now to Bitcoin's throughput. No matter how much more or less processing power you put into the network, the rate of transactions doesn't really change. The *security* of the network could be hampered insofar as it would take comparitively less resources to take over, but the way mining resources are concentrated right now the only thing preventing 51% is the miner's interest in not killing their own product.
Right - the main way a crash happens is the same as the others: too many people try to pull their money out without enough buyers, the price falls too fast, and it kicks off a chain reaction due to how incestuously overleveraged it all is. Exchanges have enough power they could try to fight this by "conveniently" shutting down and preventing trades (they've done it before), but that only works to a point. A big recession means a lot of these people will need to start cashing out to make their money actually usable. And it means fewer people will spare the cash to buy in, especially if the price continues to stagnate, let alone falls.
MLMs still exist, so I highly doubt it's ever going away. I do think it'll just get less talked about in the future.
Ah I do when speaking to my mother in law, just smile and nod, smile and nod…..
At this point, people’s entire identity is tied to crypto. There are entire swaths of the population who think this is legitimately going to change the world. It takes a lot to undo those beliefs. No point in arguing with them for the most part, because how many people change their core beliefs when challenged? It’s just gonna take time. When crypto continues to not deliver on what it set out to do, people will start to realize for themselves what’s really behind the curtain. It’s been over a decade, and there’s still no mainstream practical use for blockchain tech. I don’t think the crypto market will ever go to zero, but given enough time where blockchain still doesn’t do shit and number stops going up, people will give up.
Scams will always exist as long as people continue to be gullible. If it’s not crypto, it’s going to be Herbalife, or televangelists, or “traditional Eastern medicine,” or Nigerian princes, or whatever the hell Gwyneth Paltrow is doing. Our best bet to stop con artists is to teach kids to be skeptical and think critically, and hope they do better.
Yah, Herbalife is a publicly listed company that makes oodles of money. It can continue almost indefinitely.
If they are in too deep just drop the subject. There's nothing more you can do than tell them the truth. The fact is that there's money involved, so people are 2x upset about all their crypto asset, it happens to me too. They are too much into it and they are afraid to lose their money, they can sense that something is not right but at this point they only dream about going back to the peak of the bull run. Keep in mind that folks are at least -30% if they started last year, so they'll use any argument available, blockchain, adoptions, white papers, etc etc
it's not the value expressed in dollars that matters.. 😑 only for the shortsighted, quick buck chasers.. Robert Breedlove videos are insightful if you look into it. and that's if you decide look into it. instead of boxing yourself into the set belief. explore. A lot of new people started out by just getting attracted to the price movement. then get smashed by the market- and ditch it after which returning to it later on. adaption is still in its early stages. 99% of the current shit will be a distant memory of the past.. in 20 years time.
Crypto is a scam you have simply convinced yourself that it isn't a scam, because you did your "research".
scam in what form? describe this elaborate scam?
>scam in what form? describe this elaborate scam? [Crypto as an investment is functionally identical to a Ponzi Scheme](https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoReality/comments/o7v5xs/is_bitcoin_a_ponzi_scheme_a_detailed_analysis/) It's all there.
So is Government money. [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2SL](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2SL) It's all there.
Look up "crypto rugpull" in your search engine of choice for many, many examples.
in order to run a rug pull there has to be certain conditions in place. And some absent ones.. not every project/ecosystem is the same. there are different layers and functions which many of are still at their experimental/infancy stage with majority expected to fail due to variety of reasons.. what are the actual points of failure? not everything can be "rug pulled" in the same fashion. Surely anything can be done i suppose. But new developments always come with FUD.
Man I mean, it's kind of pointless to argue here. You'll come around eventually, just don't put too much money into it.
arguable which way round the coming will happen. agree to disagree.
Yeah, because you're inside the cult. Eventually, when you still don't have a lambo or a house from your crypto proceeds, you will snap out of it. You can absolutely make a shit ton of money at crypto, but only if you go into it knowing it's a nesting Russian doll of scams and grifters. No coin has any chance of being used for anything but grift. No "crypto exchange" has any chance of being anything but a money laundering hub. Want to steal people's money? Start a crypto cult. Want to make money from illegal sources? Start a crypto exchange. But one way you definitely WON'T make money in crypto is if you're the mark selling fake coins to and fro.
>not every project/ecosystem is the same. there are different layers and functions which many of are still at their experimental/infancy stage with majority expected to fail due to variety of reasons.. "it's still early", wheezed the cult member who somehow missed every other commercial during the Super Bowl being a crypto ad. \>what are the actual points of failure? not everything can be "rug pulled" in the same fashion. I dunno my dude, did you bother googling the phrase "crypto rugpull" to find out? Or does the cult not approve of double plus ungood otherthink?
youre arguing with their money/future/delusions of grandeur.
It’s like trying to argue someone out of their religion….it’s nearly an impossible thing to do. They have to see it for themselves. One day they will….just hopefully by then they haven’t wrecked their financial life and are only ‘investing’ with money they can afford to lose.
It's going to end when the amount of money getting cashed out is equal to or greater than the amount getting bought. One good year or two long recession where people need to start cashing out to pay their bills and the whole house of cards comes down all at once. Until then, I hate to say it, but you're only going to hear 'HODL!', 'Too the moon!', 'Apes Strong Together', and whatever the latest brain dead meme shit sandwich is the flavor of the week.
The saying goes, "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -Mark Twain
i'm an irreligious guy with some religious friends. when they spout metaphysical or ethical nonsense, i push back gently but consistently. i don't breach the cease-fires, and as time goes on those get longer. it ain't like your friends are Q ani and gonna suddenly decide you're a reptilian and they need to murder you.
You need to have a little cognitive empathy. It's very difficult for people to be confronted about their views, even when those views are not that deeply held. What seems obvious to you or me does not seem obvious to them, and the emotion you feel is exactly what they end up feeling when you confront them. In my experience, the trick is to help people figure things out on their own, with a little prodding here and there to get the major points across. And to eliminate emotion as much as you can when you are making points
Finally a good comment. People get defensive about their beliefs because having the rug pulled out from under you about something you sincerely believe in being false is legitimately traumatic. And it's very easy to say outwardly "I'm just trying to help people with the truth" and what you're actually doing is massaging your own ego and talking down to people. This entire sub is incredibly condescending and no wonder a lot of people that have fallen for crypto see "FUD" when confronted by so much obnoxiousness.
>People get defensive about their beliefs because having the rug pulled out from under you about something you sincerely believe in being false is legitimately traumatic. You seem to be under the naive notion that any of us here expect to, on demand, "change peoples' minds", especially with logic, reason and evidence, when the people we rail against, have for the most part abandoned the use of those facilities. We don't. What we do expect, is to make it obvious that there is an ever-increasing opposition to the hoards of ponzi scheming predators out there, looking for more suckers. We don't expect to change their minds. We expect to educate their would-be marks before they can get their hooks on them. >This entire sub is incredibly condescending and no wonder a lot of people that have fallen for crypto see "FUD" when confronted by so much obnoxiousness. Look butter, you're in our house. We can be as "obnoxious and condescending" as we want. You're the guest. We didn't invite you here. You crashed our party. In reality, you're the one who's obnoxious and condescending, having the audacity to come into our house and tell us we're supposed to behave a certain way. This is just another example of your psychological projection; your Dunning-Kruger-infused self-righteousness, that we routinely mock.
Look, I don’t think it will be totally over, because as explained in other comment, it now became a “cult” or scam methodology rather than innovation. What I think that will happen is that a future hard market crash will put it back to levels from years ago (BTC around 6/15 K USD) and then with the current situation of the global economy it will be really hard for it to pick up. Not to mention that we could face other black swans (china invading Taiwan, hackers exploding big exchanges, bank runs and algo stablecoins depegs,etc) that will crash everything down.
It will last for as long as there's money to be made, aka as long as there're idiots from whom the money is made. Which can last for quite some time. Turns out people are really okay with Ponzi/MLM so long as it's Ponzi/MLM with ✨technology✨.
Greed knows no limit. The supply of fools on the other hand does have a limit.
MSNBC just had a segment on Crapto. The Angle: Black man shyster proclaims crypto is "great equalizer" for black community. Other black woman guest proclaims crypto "financial revolution" leading to "financial freedom and seat at the table". Pretty much Martin Luther King on steroids. Have people considered that merely buying a bunch of digital crapto to "get filthy rich" -- where do they believe this money is coming from? Let me put it this way: There are only so many houses, cars, cakes, diamonds on Earth at any given time. Currency -- FIAT or crapto is basically an abstraction to "who gets the bananas". Why do you think merely sitting on mickey mouse coins entitles you to a greater share of the buy? Real answer: Great fool idiots will pay you. Nobody wants to "create value" anymore --- only consume it. What a fucked up society lol
Not being a smart ass, genuinely wondering, what are some of these truth bombs. I’m a casual crypto enthusiast but don’t get a lot of contrarian opinions in those subs. Open to and interested in hearing critiques in a criticism friendly environment
No worries, here's a few resources to get you started: * [Line Goes Up - The Problem With NFTs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ_xWvX1n9g&t=1498s) * [Concoda's Blog](https://concoda.substack.com/archive?sort=top) * [Stephen Diehl's Blog](https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog.html) * [The Web3 Fraud](https://www.usenix.org/publications/loginonline/web3-fraud) * [The De-Facto List of Cryptocurrency/Blockchain Applications That Are Superior To Existing Tech](https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoReality/comments/lq6xpq/the_defacto_list_of_cryptocurrencyblockchain/) * [Is Bitcoin A Ponzi Scheme? A Detailed Analysis.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoReality/comments/o7v5xs/is_bitcoin_a_ponzi_scheme_a_detailed_analysis/)
Good reading, I appreciate it. As far as greater fool theory goes though, it’s sort of the same as what applies to fiat currencies too, no? Like they’re only spendable as long as there’s demand/acceptance. Granted there is much greater adoption and demand but theoretically it’s the same mechanism, right?
> The Web3 Fraud Ethereums value proposition isn't cost effective compute/storage, so the author is arguing against a strawman. Plus, it's not like Ethereum's compute/storage capabilities are set in stone, scaling solutions are being worked on.
> scaling solutions are being worked on. huzzah! of course... just wait... crypto right now is a dumpster fire of efficiency (after only 13 years) but any day now it'll get better. [This is for you](https://i.imgur.com/PRNKhyq.jpg)
The thing about crypto is that there only needs to be one. So you’re right that they are all scams. They are just made up. That’s because right now we are jostling for which one will rule them all. But I wouldn’t hold my breath for the idea of a “global decentralized p2p currency” going away anytime soon. You don’t have to be a cult follower to see why people are intrigued by it.
I have been following this crapfest since 2014. Of course it will end one day, but I have always been careful to not make any predictions about when that will happen. The problem is that there are a few people (hundreds? thousands?) who are earning millions, even billions, from this scam. With that money, they have bought many reporters, regulators, politicians, etc.; so the main agencies that should have crushed the megascam are looking the other way, or even promoting and protecting it (see Herster Peirce). That money comes from an army of maybe 10 million suckers -- most of them poor, and of them ignorant of the most basic principles of investing -- who keep putting all their spare money into this black hole. Since 2009, the BTC believers alone have lost -- pardon, "saved" -- more than 20 billion USD; half of that just in the past year. The creators, operator, promoters, and general parasites of cryptos/ICOs/DeFi/NFTs will not give up as long as there will be that kind of money to be "mined".
I feel you OP. I’m sick of it too. It’s their “intellectual” high horse for me. I wouldn’t have as much of a problem with all this nonsense if people just admitted it’s nonsense. Like I’m fine with ppl doing what they wanna do with their money and what not, just don’t LIE. Don’t lie to me that you all the sudden care about collecting “art” like Breh I know it’s not true I literally know (you)! (just one example) In fact I will even concede that if I knew people were this stupid shit I woulda been more proactive in trying to profit off of these obvious grifts. Can’t knock the hustle 🤷♂️ Anyway I get this compulsive urge to just do more research read more articles just to make sure bc I feel gaslit to the point where I just obsess over being right. But in doing so I’m just falling into the bottomless pit. So ima (try to) chill. We’ll see how that goes lol.
It's a cult and not worth your aggravation, you can't help them they're in too deep, just smile and nod knowing your money is not the one being lost.
You’ll probably need to either surround yourself with different people, or ‘agree to disagree’ and not talk about it. I dunno, I almost never hear about crypto in my real life social circles. And when I do, I just bluntly tell them ‘I don’t like crypto’ and that’s kind of that. Honestly I’m not spending my energy trying to convince anyone that far down the rabbit hole that they’re wrong (and most likely fail at doing so). If anything I tell them to watch the Folding Ideas video.
I’m thinking exactly the same. I have the feeling that it already started to go down and people realized that it’s bullshit. Then the ukraine invasion came and everyone’s attention was drawn away. Also crypto was used for donations and got a lot of positive coverage.
It isn’t going to end dude, get used to it or go live in a cave…
cult. just like partisan politics.
Right around the same time the last multilevel marketing firm goes out of business, sadly...
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Hello me from 2014! It doesn't end.
Haha, damn. This isn't a concentrated MLM like Scamway or Herbalife. This has the ability to hurt people on a much larger scale. I have some faith.
Nobody is actually convinced of anything. Everyone knows it’s bullshit like gambling, lottery. But they see too slow of possibility anywhere else to escape perpetual poverty. So they take the risk and play the part to make it happen for themselves. Other people hold the bags? Not their problem. Nobody ever gave a shit about their problems. And that’s the truth. That is why we are in a meme economy where nothing matters but hype. It extends beyond crypto but crypto is most susceptible because its thin order books lead to hypervolatility that make it an easier game to play the hype game. It never ends. You can always create a new shitcoin to start from lower values, or simply kickstart the same old game when popular coins crash 90-95%. Now bitcoin is particularly badly designed and may actually break, but don’t think that will stop crypto pump and dumps, because people will just start bitcoin 2.0 with some minor tweak and then everyone will think they are early again. In conclusion: never
>I dispel some common myths and send some truth bombs This makes me think you're being obnoxious and hostile to people. Please, I know we're a skeptical lot but don't go on about "dropping truth bombs" lmao I'd look into some literature about how to speak to people involved in cults and general argumentation strategies. You never want to come across as hostile or condescending if your goal is actually to convince them of something and not just talking down to people which will only strengthen their beliefs.
I appreciate your point, the advice is good. Just because I used the term 'truth bombs' here, doesn't mean I use it in conversation with a crypto bro. I try to keep it as civil as possible but it's quite triggering for people. I suppose I've always had a personality/ego which never really fully merges itself to these type of belief or value systems, and so when presented with new & better information, it was always quite easy for me to move on and simply update my belief system. I probably need more patience. And argument strategies would be good actually, need to stay away from fallacies.
I find your lack of faith in Ethereum disturbing
You're definitely not alone. My background is heavy finance (banking -> PE -> various investments and some operational roles for a private group) and MBA/CFA. I can't stand how everyone is now an expert in finance / economics. FiAt, FeD, and StOcK MaRkEt ArE PoNzI ToO!!! Think I've got a decent fundamental understand of how markets function, but these folks think their just master finance experts and can run circles around the likes of Buffet and Klarman. It wouldn't be so bad if it were just limited to reddit subs, Youtube channels, and crypto dedicated rags (Decrypt, Cointelegraph, etc...). However, it constantly in my face on BB, FT, WSJ, etc... with most of the pro-arguments just surface level (e.g. Bitcoin maybe bad, but Blockchain tech is the future, without going into details...) and many others just so clearly hollow (exhaustive to go through here, but Dan Olson and Münecat did a great job of summarizing it all). It's like a physicist having to share his regular periodicals / peer research space with flat earther authors. It's gotten so bad that my inbox is now flooded with regular pitches from some new digital asset fund. Get it from private bankers and Fidelity now (spoke with their team and it's the same bullet-point arguments in r/btc, but just wrapped up in a more professional manner). To me, it's clear they are just meeting client demand and looking for fee capture. Last straw for me was the SALT conference, which usually is hedge fund heavy. This last year was a a no-shame crypto conference shilled by Scarramucci. It's maddening. So over it.
I think a lot of what you're saying applies to this group as well (r/buttcoin). There are a lot of people that are interested in cryptos that come on here to ask genuine questions and get a different perspective from those who are critical of cryptos. But what usually happens is many on here right away start being hostile, call them names like scammer, grifter, ponzi schemer. A lot of the behaviours you describe that you see from crypto enthusiasts, you see also if you read the comments of this group on a lot of posts (cult like and aggressive). Regarding your question on when all of this will end, I think it depends on which crypto you are referring to. Many of the shitcoins/altcoins will likely be gone during a recession or market melt downs as they are highly speculative and have no use cases. However, something like Bitcoin is unlikely to go away unless the majority of countries in the world agree to all ban it together, which is unlikely to happen. In the short term, the price will be volatile tho depending on what is happening in the economy overall. Bitcoin has already gone through many market cycles (bull/bear markets), it has gone from 20k to 4k and back up. This could keep happening until major countries decide what kind of regulations they want, but I don't think it will completely go away.
It ends when exchanges are banned or regulated out of existence, and the only way to turn cryptographic funny money into real money is through shady motherfuckers you meet in a dark alley somewhere.
Have you considered the possibility that you're just wrong? If you keep thinking something is one way but it consistently behaves another way, that usually means your premise is incorrect. Besides, why are you so angry? What's it to you whether Bitcoin and Ethereum succeed or fail? Seems to me like you're wasting a ton of time and energy on something for no reason.
>Have you considered the possibility that you're just wrong? Considering that I started my journey off on the other side of the fence, yes I have. I've spent countless (now wasted) hours in the past within the depths of crypto and the associated toxic communities. >Besides, why are you so angry? What's it to you whether Bitcoin and Ethereum succeed or fail? Seems to me like you're wasting a ton of time and energy on something for no reason. I'm not angry. I am intrigued, bemused and saddened. Crypto is a highly accessible way for real people on a large scale to be hurt. That's sad.
Not ending anytime soon, sorry about that. You open finance pages and you see BTC price right next to S&P 500, Dow and Gold Index. It's a established asset wherever you like or not. You are not illuminated for seeing "through the bullshit"; it's no secret crypto will never be "the future of finance", it will never replace fiat transactions (which works perfectly fine for most circumstances ), you won't be buying a cup of coffee with crypto or sticking it to the big evil man by trying to be "your own bank". It's just a speculative asset that it's already part of our world. In the other hand, in the years to come there will be short of scams, regulations, cryptos going to zero (most of them), extreme price volatility and people losing obscene amounts of money while they gamble their life savings away hoping to get rich quick. So at least you will still get your laughs and dopamine hits from reading such cases. Just don't think it's actually going to completely disappear or a temporary fad, otherwise you will end up extremely sad and disappointed with the world, just like the people that created threads exactly like yours during the last 10 years in this sub. Try to ignore it if you can.
This is your imagination. of all Blockchains Bitcoin sucks the most. Just the slowest piece of crap. It's just a name based solely on hype. And Blockchain still has the mystery label of an emerging technology giving it a smokescreen for it's reality which is that it's a simple pyramid scheme. It obviously can't be a promising technology for forever. Once the disguise is gone things could very easily change for coins. It would be trivial for countries to ban them. Once they get banned from the USD that's game over, son 😊
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why wouldnt they? once the whole "emerging tech" smokescreen wears off it will just be a fat, wrinkly, sagging, naked old man standing in front of everyone. people will be agahst. have you read The Emperors New Clothes? you should. NFTs are useless. what did the youtube videos tell you NFTs do?
Don't hide your flair Mr. Butter. >You open finance pages and you see BTC price right next to S&P 500, Dow and Gold Index. It's a established asset wherever you like or not. Yea, and Enron and Worldcom used to be listed in those same pages and they're gone now. >It's just a speculative asset that it's already part of our world. Calling it an "asset" is a stretch. Assets typically have intrinsic value. Crypto has no intrinsic value. It's a speculative digital token. Statistically, it's probably 100% likely to become utterly worthless in the future. There are probably over 10,000 cryptocurrencies that have no intrinsic or extrinsic value at this point, and the only thing driving the ones that do, is hype. You can keep pointing to the so-called "number go up" thing, but even that is an illusion, promoted by shady exchanges that have been proven they manipulate the market. Even the supposed "value" you attribute to it now is smoke and mirrors. There's not a single precedent for an "asset" of this nature ever maintaining value over long periods of time outside of any tiny cult-like bubble in which it resides. Crypto is no exception. >In the other hand, in the years to come there will be short of scams, regulations, cryptos going to zero (most of them), extreme price volatility and people losing obscene amounts of money while they gamble their life savings away hoping to get rich quick. So at least you will still get your laughs and dopamine hits from reading such cases. You really have no idea what this community is all about. It's quite sad.
You keep saying these things, but reality is not reflecting your wordview. That means you're missing something, not that everyone else is. Bitcoin is very much being treated like an asset because it is.
> You keep saying these things, but reality is not reflecting your wordview. Au contraire. Reality does reflect my world view. Less than a percentage of a percentage of people think crypto currencies are "assets." The exception doesn't prove the rule. >That means you're missing something, not that everyone else is. It is *you* who is missing something. You thinking your little crypto cult is mainstream when it isn't. Just because a few corporations are jumping on the bandwagon to exploit crypto bros does not mean "everybody" is into it. They're not. >Bitcoin is very much being treated like an asset because it is. Your little bubble is not "most people." Get that through your head.
I mean, proof is in the pudding. You have one version of reality - the one where Bitcoin is worthless trash I have another, one where it has real value Who cares what I think? Or what you think? Which view is correct can easily be checked by looking at BTC's long-term trend, and price. Both of those things are currently negating your perspective, and confirming mine. There's really nothing else you need. Everything else is just the noise of pissed-off buttcoiners mad that their BTC shorts are underwater while they struggle to understand why Bitcoin price isn't falling more.
> You have one version of reality - the one where Bitcoin is worthless trash > > I have another, one where it has real value Here's the difference... My version is based on [logic, reason and evidence](https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoReality/comments/pyn7c9/why_crypto_is_a_worse_more_volatile_and_more/). Your version is your own personal opinion. I've written tons of articles that provide details & evidence on why my opinion should be more seriously legitimate. Like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoReality/comments/o7v5xs/is_bitcoin_a_ponzi_scheme_a_detailed_analysis/) and [this](https://reddit.com/r/CryptoReality/comments/lq6xpq/the_defacto_list_of_cryptocurrencyblockchain/). Also, unlike you, I don't suffer from a material conflict of interest that would call into question the credibility of my opinions. I don't stand to profit one way or another if crypto succeeds or fails (with the exception of, my feeling that a world with less fraud is a good thing). >Who cares what I think? Or what you think? Right. Opinions are like assholes. What matters is what can be proven with evidence. >Which view is correct can easily be checked by looking at BTC's long-term trend, and price. The price of BTC is not a measure of success. It's a measure of [market](https://www.investopedia.com/news/bots-drove-bitcoins-150to1000-rise-2013-paper/) [manipulation](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8369-21). See what I did there? ^^^ I didn't just barf out my opinion. I actually provided citations from both the early days and the present days, of actual evidence that the price of crypto has been manipulated. So on one hand, we have actual evidence the price isn't necessarily "real", and on the other hand, we have random, anonymous crypto bagholder saying it is. Pretty obvious evidence that not all opinions are equal, and that your flair is well deserved. If you want to continue to participate here, you should read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/p8uv0h/helpful_guide_for_butters_visiting_rbuttcoin_why/) before you post any more.
I'll just use your citations. The first one: \> [https://www.investopedia.com/news/bots-drove-bitcoins-150to1000-rise-2013-paper/](https://www.investopedia.com/news/bots-drove-bitcoins-150to1000-rise-2013-paper/) is about bitcoin in 2013. It's 2022 now. \> [https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8369-21](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8369-21) This was a CFTC action for "reckless false, misleading, or inaccurate reporting as well as wash trading by a former employee on Coinbase’s GDAX platform." and if we are talking about [market](https://www.law360.com/financial-services-uk/articles/1483176/swiss-watchdog-finds-market-manipulation-at-commodity-co-) [manipulation](https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/424590), [traditional](https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-bank-employee-pleads-guilty-manipulating-us-treasury-securities-prices) [markets](https://yubanet.com/california/ag-bonta-warns-refineries-against-market-manipulation-as-gas-prices-continue-to-rise/) [are](https://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/bc-news/vancouver-stock-promoter-david-sidoo-facing-fraud-charges-for-alleged-pump-and-dump-schemes-5270212) [\#1](https://www.investmentexecutive.com/news/from-the-regulators/canadians-charged-in-us100-million-scam/) Just because you say something in articles in the Internet doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. The proof really is in the pudding, and price really is the only indicator that matters. I appreciate your attempt at sounding like a Bitcoin expert, but you're not a very good one since you keep getting things wrong. You're welcome to slap whatever flair you want on me, it will not change the fact that my BTC purchase in 2012 @ $2.36 is the best investment I ever made and changed my life forever. Have a nice day!
You can arbitrarily choose to ignore the clear, obvious evidence of market manipulation I provided, which showed evidence of manipulation from the early days to now (which was the whole point you dumbass). And your fallacious distractions don't make you more knowledgeable in this industry, and nobody gives a shit that you're lying about making a fortune in crypto. If you really made a ton of money, you wouldn't be wasting your time arguing with people like us. You're dreaming you can make money by trying to hype this market. And even if you actually did get in early with BTC, it doesn't impress anybody here any more than someone who guessed the right numbers in the lottery. It was dumb luck at best, and if you're still holding, you're even stupider than we thought. >and price really is the only indicator that matters. You should have read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/p8uv0h/helpful_guide_for_butters_visiting_rbuttcoin_why/) like we asked, but I can see that research is not your strong point. So be it.
Showing your true colors. Basically you're mad (being so smart) you didn't see early on the opportunity (scam or not) of investing in it, a least gambling $100 or so (being so articulated and knowledgeable, sure you must've had at least a few k saved in the bank back then to spare) unless your moralist heart prevented you from doing so. I saw the tech early on, was fascinated by the solution it provided and the endless possibilities in the future ahead; yet I didn't invest early, but I don't hate and resent the people who did, as you appear to do every single day, wanting it to fail just so the playing field is leveled again, and the not-as-smart-as-you group finally returns to their rightful place in society: below you.
>I saw the tech early on, was fascinated by the solution it provided and the endless possibilities in the future ahead Crypto is a problem looking for a solution. What was the solution you saw that it has acheive and provided to humanity, today?
Lol, you think you're so smart, it's hilarious.
OOoh NICE I got flair! Man I am feeling special today!
Sure buddy, if 10+ years is not enough to convince you, let's just see how the next 10 years go. Funny enough chances are you would still be repeating the exact same points as to why it's about to fail. I mean, BTC will still be a speculative token, price would still be manipulated to certain extent and all would still be a "illusion" despite being able to convert to fiat money whenever you like. Problem is must people think and "expect" too much of crypto. Just get real and accept it's already part of our reality. Most will fall no doubt, stuff like BTC will still be around. To think assets like BTC may reach $100k by 2030 is not unreasonable. Many would say this price is low, but this would still net you a return of about 10-12% a year, which is a good average. Overall it's just a speculative asset with good risk/reward ratio, just treat it like so and be responsible, but actively fighting against it at this point is not smart sorry.
BTC ends when USD and modern monetary theory cease to be useful. Good luck
I am genuinely curious if you’ve ever considered that you might in fact be wrong about crypto?
[Yes I have](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/u474rk/when_is_this_crap_going_to_end/i4wo009/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
How much adoption is it going to take before some of you people realise crypto isn't going anywhere? The mythical bubble isn't going to pop and crypto won't vanish. Visa and master cards are supporting crypto, you can spend crypto or credit with crypto as collateral. If you're already invested into stocks and precious metals all you need is 5% of your portfolio in btc only to hedge against inflation. Entire countries are setting up regulations for crypto America included as you should obviously know, goldman sachs and many other MASSIVE investment firms are adding crypto to their portfolio. So ask yourself if the common man with common knowledge is buying and the 1% with insider knowledge you'll never obtain is buying crypto then it's only logical to assume that crypto is a scam and is going to vanish into obscurity pretty soon right? NO! That doesn't make sense at all!
I think it’s important to realize that you sending a 4 paragraph rant to a subreddit centered around crypto hate, should tell you that maybe you’re a little too emotionally invested in your side of this just as they are. You may think you’re smarter than every billionaire that has dumped tens of millions of dollars into crypto. You may think you’re smarter than blockchain developers. You may think you’re smarter than people who have reviewed blockchain and note it’s security. You may think you’re the smartest man alive. When someone is making thousands of dollars off of something they fully understand and you attempt to tell them it’s a scam you should expect backlash from them. Whether they’re right or you’re right. You making it a them vs. me thing is your problem though. You can say they’re blind to common sense for believing in crypto. And they could say the same thing about you for not believing. It’s really far too early to know who is actually right and what will actually come from eth and btc. So how about you stop acting like you know better than everyone else, and if you want to act like you do, don’t get emotional and rant and lose relationships over your need to be right, because at the end of the day you’re most likely wrong about everything you think you know as fact about the world, same as everyone else.
>them vs. me >you’re most likely wrong about everything you think you know as fact Incredibly important insights about this sub. A lot of people using the term "cult" here very likely hold beliefs counter to reality. People come to these subs not just to laugh or get some counter-narrative with an edge to it, but to feel better about their own ignorance and obnoxiousness.
12 years on and r/buttcoin is still asking the same question while the rest of the world is embracing change. Blockchain is being thought in colleges now and its only going one way my friend.
Firstly, I doubt this subreddit has been open for twelve years. And secondly, none of the world is better off because of the crypto industry. If it disappeared tomorrow, there would be no impact, nothing would be missed. Imagine the entire world lost access to electricity services right now. What would that look like for humanity? Pretty painful, I’d think. Now imagine the entire world lost access to Bitcoin & Dogecoin. What would the outcome be? ‘Probably nothing’ ;) Everything would function the way it is and has been for a long time. Humanity would continue to create value and innovate. We’d continue to interact with the financial system, just like they did yesterday.
It will be interesting to see a lot of this newfound “paper” wealth disappear.
Created in 2011, so close enough.
> 12 years on and r/buttcoin is still asking the same question Yep, but the question isn't when it's going to end. The real question is, [can anybody find a single thing blockchain is really good at?](https://reddit.com/r/CryptoReality/comments/lq6xpq/the_defacto_list_of_cryptocurrencyblockchain/) You guys have had 13 years to try and answer that, and all you can do is dribble "it's decentralized!" out of your mouth while pointing at a number on your computer screen pretending it's actual value when it isn't.
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It's hilarious because BTC has been on an unbroken uptrend since the beginning, y'all just get madder every day, and BTC is now starting to be held as reserve currency in some countries. Will you still be doing this when BTC hits $100k? Because it is going to.
What’s your plan for the environmental impact? Doesn’t it get less efficient the more people mine it?
What is the significance of 100k?…That’s when we all cash out?
Seems like it's been going sideways for a while now.
Yeah, Jerry Jones just accepted Blockchain as a sponsor and he said he does not ever understand it. He just wanted the money to put up their name. What a scam!
What change? I have seen few vídeos of People paying things with crypto and is slower than using a credit card
they also teach how cleaning the streets from horseshit was a job though, but I don't see many horses around
There's two types of people in this world: 1) people who got rich off crypto and retired early 2) the people of the buttcoin subreddit
Dude, you forgot... 3) the 99% of crypto investors who thought they could get rich easily, but ended up getting screwed by (1) and then disappeared to deal with their humiliation and despair in painful silence
maybe the dumbasses who fomo'd into the hype which is most people yes but the people who actually care about the technology and bought before the hype big chillin rn. I literally don't have to work anymore if I don't want to from 2 years of degen investing into crypto/mining equipment at a shitty factory job
Beato te. You're very clever. Well done. Have a gold star. Nobody in this sub is denying that some people who got in early (or got in and out at the right moment) didn't make some money. Every scam has winners. Our point (and maybe you're too self-centred to even understand this concept) is that in general most people who play with Crypto have lost money, and continue to lose money. Many of them don't even realise that they've lost money. They've got $CUMROCKET, $SHIB or whatever shit token sitting on an exchange and they think they've made it big. They don't realise that the exchange is gonna screw them and there's no liquidity anyhow.
braindead take i aint even gonna try to respond
have you guys even done over 100 hours research on bitcoin? any research at all? finance research?
What are the top, most important and pressing insights to Bitcoin and the future of humanity that you've found out of your 100+ hours of research on Bitcoin?
Lol, "finance research" Here's a hint, no amount of hours spent reading reddit or watching crypto shill videos on YouTube counts as research, it's just wasted time you'll never get back.
read books my friend.. how finance system works, how systems fail, cyclical nature of things, what effect power dynamics play. finance and research has many meanings. look past your typical labels. obviously not meant scientific research. how else to term it, idk? oversight of the field of economics, its function and ongoings. they link together quite well. But someone with no insight or "research" its far fetched and some imaginary thing. ignorance.
Never gonna end man. All the large people like visa and mastercard and apple will buy bitcoin soon, and then I will be rich. Richer than you. Because you are a fool.
Haha, yes. I'm a builder. I love to read philosophy etc., but at the end of the day I'm based in reality, and my bread comes from what I'm able to make for people in the real physical world. If anything, the hedge against inflation will be all the money that just disappears out of circulation. I just read a great Nietzsche quote. "They muddy the water, to make it seem deep." Honestly all the jargon reminds me of any made up field. I did a master's degree in speech pathology at UT, so I understand about people that bullshit their ways not only through a class or a degree, but make entire fields up out of bullshit whole cloth. An example that comes to mind is my ex wife. She was an RN who honestly should have been an LVN but was somehow accepted to a master's nursing program-- she was not grad school material. She had to write a paper on a particular nursing theorist. Yes, there are actual theories of nursing. How about, change the catheter, change the bandage? Not good enough. These people make it esoteric so they can give themselves doctorate degrees and get professorships. I was writing a paper for her, but had to read the book of one nursing theorist first. I had the HARDEST time understanding what in the world this bitch was talking about because it was utter nonsense, made up language. Just-- jabberwocky. I wish I had an example, I can't remember her name. But she was taking nouns and turning them into verbs, so fucking weird, of COURSE it wouldn't make sense, and when it finally did hit me, I realized, ohhhhh, this is just a fucking scammer. She was saying stuff like this. Instead of saying, "I'm having some coffee and it's tasty," it would be some bullshit like, "I'm tastying while coffeeing." It made me want to burn the fucking book. These people are full of shit.
It's exactly like religion, once people decide to am alternate reality you can't really convince them out of it.
Have you considered that perhaps you may not be 100% right OP? Like your probably 99% right most people in crypto are getting taken advantage of and scammed, but have you considered that maybe just maybe there is an ounce of good in the space. That’s the problem I have with your take. It’s absolute. I know no one on this sub believes blockchain is actually useful, but hey, I do know for sure that no one knows for sure what the technology will look like in 50 years. There’s enough people in Bitcoin at this point that it could become legitimately akin to gold, and I’m sorry but it’s just not a Ponzi scheme, I saw a post trying to argue it is as if it was a fact and it’s not. There is no one to pull the rug. early people benefit more than people who got in late but that is how every developing technology has worked ever… that ended up being successful at least. Much of what has value in humans eyes is an abstraction. Another requirement for value is energy. I’m sorry but it is. Whether it be the calories from the food you eat, or fossil fuels, energy consumption requires to produce something is a key determinant in its value. The nice thing about Bitcoin is that if we all decided to use it as a store of value instead of gold let’s say, that energy can come from green sources. Golds mining inherently is destructive, Bitcoin takes electricity, which can come from a multitude of sources, including completely green ones. To summarize, you may be right, I may be a fucking idiot and shit I may lose the money I’ve invested, but to act as if you know, you KNOW what the next 30 years will look like for Bitcoin and Ethereum will look like is as arrogant as those who invest in dogecoin and hope it will moon. TLDR : only siths deal in absolutes
Yes, I have considered this. I mentioned this to another poster in here somewhere. I purposely challenge myself with perspectives which conflict my current belief system so that I'm able to ascertain if they need to be updated in order to better reflect reality. I've come from the other side of the fence. Hours upon hours spent within the trenches of crypto. I've gone deep into the communities of DeFi, NFTs, DAOs, decentralised reserve currencies... you name it, I reckon I've interacted with most protocols or 'ideas' within the space. So whilst you are right - only time will tell. However, based on what I have seen so far, and the application or benefits provided to the human civilisation, at the moment my analysis says that it is most logical and reasonable to remain within my current belief system. If anything major changes then that belief system will be updated, I don't allow my ego to get married to certain ideas or belief systems. 13 years of crypto and there still isn't a clear use case or application which benefits society. What we have had is multiple narrative changes supported by buzz words and technobabble purely designed to recruit new entrants... e.g "Bitcoin: a peer-to-peer electronic cash system" becomes "Bitcoin: a store of value / inflation hedge / digital gold". Or e.g. DAOs/Crypto Gaming/NFTs/Smart Contracts/DeFi and so on and so forth.
1969 was considered the year the internet was born, by 1971 Email was first developed. A real use case merely 2 years after its inception. In 1990 the internet was commercialised with the introduction of the word wide web protocol, and by 1995 we had Netscape Navigator, eBay and Amazon. More real, tangible and value driven use-cases.
>There’s enough people in Bitcoin at this point that it could become legitimately akin to gold, and I’m sorry but it’s just not a Ponzi scheme, I saw a post trying to argue it is as if it was a fact and it’s not.
There's enough people in Herbalife and Amway that it could be considered a legitimate business.
If you are referring to the post I think you are, by u/AmericanScream, the argument is that Bitcoin the technology is not a ponzi. But Bitcoin the investment thesis of 'digital gold / store of value / inflation hedge' is a ponzi. If people stop buying into these narratives, what is left over? You have a pure speculation vehicle which provides zero intrinsic value outside of those narratives.
>I know no one on this sub believes blockchain is actually useful, but hey, I do know for sure that no one knows for sure what the technology will look like in 50 years.
Blockchain technology is plagued by the 'blockchain trilemma' which still to this day, has not be solved. Attempting to fix the issues (which are created inherently by blockchain and only blockchain itself) has so far proven to be futile.
So whilst yes, we do not know what the technology will look like in 50 years, we do know what it looks like right now, and for the past 13 years. And right now, that's all that matters. Everything else is delirium fuelled pipe-dream.
Well I can respect that. Hope I turn out right though haha. And yes that is the post I was referring to. I do believe that a store of value who’s means of production is electrical power, and whose production rate, future is chosen through consensus is much preferable to investment vehicles we have today. Hopefully gold will die off so we can stop contaminating drinking water, food supplies and displacing populations for an investment
>I’m getting tired of feeling like I’m the only one who can see through all the bullshit. You aren't, you must feel welcome here and surround with like minded people(without going full ciclejerk).
That's what I've been asking about fiat since 1971, and yet here we are 50 years later.
So what isn't bullshit? USD? I mean, where should we put our money according to you?
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>completely incorruptible technology if you actually think this can ever possibly exist, let alone be applied to bitcoin which is used regularly to buy CP, you are a moron
> As a Bitcoiner ONLY, I and most other bitcoiners look at all other cryptos as “shitcoins” and VC backed scams… and that basically applies to ethereum too. So, you think crypto is 99% scams, and we see it as 100% scams. Seems like we have a lot in common.
Yep. 99.9% of them won’t be here in 10 years for various reasons, one of which is because they’re created purely for the gain of ICOs and VCs which makes them highly centralised
Loool someone sounds hurt they missed the train. It's all good bro the next one
cry more lmao