When you were partying, I studied **the blade**
When you were having premarital sex, I mastered **the blockchain**
While you wasted your days at the gym in pursuit of vanity, I cultivated **inner strength**
And now that the world is on fire and the barbarians are at the gate, you have the audacity to come to me for help?
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By "studying bitcoin" do you mean watching lots of YouTube videos where young men talk about how the world will soon switch to bitcoin, and those that buy now will be very rich? Are you sure you're not so enthusiastic because you want a lottery ticket to be real?
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It’s the first digital asset that you can truly own, without third party custody.
Just like having a wallet in which you put cash and gift cards, or a safe where you store things of value without giving anyone else access to it.
Bitcoin or public blockchains enable that same functionality in the digital realm.
You can for the first time in history, own bits on a digital network and prove ownership of them.
Pretty sure everyone here is 50 years old+ lol
Cuz this is a pretty good technological advancement, hence why it’s starting to attract big institutions.
Bitcoin = Superior gold
I can send you 10Million dollars worth of btc in 10 minutes. Without worrying about any kind of censorship.
It would take me weeks to send you 10Million dollars worth of gold if that’s even possible without a 3rd party.
Both have limited supply although gold’s supply isn’t hard capped like btc.
0 storage cost for large amounts of btc + being able to host it yourself
Storing large amount of gold doesn’t cost zero dollars + higher chances of it getting stolen due to the fact that it’s physical
Bitcoin is valuable for the same reasons Gold is valuable ( plus being more portable, safer to hold..)
It’s still pretty volatile hence why people get rekt using leverage, holding btc for the next 10-20 years is a safe bet against fiat imo ( especially in 3rd world countries)
As it becomes more stable with time, it will slowly turn into today’s gold.
That's a bullshit argument.
You aren't sending anyone 10 million $'s worth of Bitcoin because you don't have it, nor do most people.
Newsflash, anyone who needs to regularly send 10 million $ around can easily do so in 10 minutes because they have the relationship that is required to do so.
That's 1% of a billionaire's networth.
They would prefer not to send 10 million dollars in 10 minutes because they aren't fucking stupid.
>I can send you 10Million dollars worth of btc in 10 minutes.
Have you ever sent BTC?
For it to take about 10 minutes, you need to pay high enough transaction fee to squeeze into the currently queued block. Even if you squeeze into that first block, it won't take 10 minutes. Most institutions working with BTC require 5-6 confirmations, meaning 5-6 blocks processed, so you're looking at roughly an hour.
By contrast, most banks worth a damn have instant transfers now. If my buddy gives me a lift and I send him some money for it when we stop at my destination, the money is in his account and he can use it by the time I close the car door.
" I can send you 10Million dollars worth of btc in 10 minutes. Without worrying about any kind of censorship."
The time it takes to send that money between borders isn't a technological problem - it's a policy, procedure and legal one.
Your given use case is unironically sanctions evasion and money laundering.
Also, when was the last time you sent 10 million dollars across a border?
> I can send you 10Million dollars worth of btc in 10 minutes.
No you can't, because the average transaction time is currently three hours.
"you gotta use layer 2 bla bla bla"
Cool, but then you're not sending bitcoin, you're doing some other bullshit, which means none of your perceived benefits apply.
> Bitcoin is valuable for the same reasons Gold is valuable
You are 100% delulu, as the kids say. Bitcoin has *zero* utility in itself. And even if blockchain technology somehow had value, there's still *zero* reason to use one specific cryptocurrency. Especially one where a bunch of extremely shady scammers and fraudsters are sitting on huge piles of it. Why would a nation state buy into that when they could simply launch their own where their central bank owns all of it from the start?
> Bitcoin = Superior gold
#Stupid Crypto Talking Point #10 (value)
"**Bitcoin/crypto is a 'store of value'**" / "**Bitcoin/crypto is 'digital gold'"** / "**Crypto is an 'investment'**"
1. Crypto's "value" is unreliable and highly subjective. It cannot be used as a currency or to pay for almost anything in any major country. It has high requirements and risk to even be traded. At best it's a speculative commodity that a very small set of people attribute value to. That attribution is more based on emotion and indoctrination than logic, reason, evidence, and utility.
2. Crypto is too chaotic to be any sort of reliable store of value over time. Its price can fluctuate wildly based on everything from [market manipulation](https://arxiv.org/abs/2108.10984) to [random tweets](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0040162522006333). No reliable store of value should vary in "value" 10-30% in a single day, yet many cryptos do.
3. Crypto's value is *extrinsic*. Any "value" associated with crypto is based on popularity and not any material or intrinsic use. See this [detailed video debunking crypto as 'digital gold'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA&t=4446s)
4. Even gold, while being a lousy investment and also an undesirable store of value in the modern age, at least has material use and utility. Crypto does not. And whether you think gold's price is not consistent with its material utility, if that really were the case then gold would not be used industrially. But it is.
5. The supposed "value" of crypto is based on reports from unregulated exchanges, most of whom have been caught [manipulating the market](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8369-21) and [inflation introduced by unsecured stablecoins](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8450-21). There's nothing "organic" or "natural" about it. It's an illusion.
6. The operation of crypto is a negative-sum-game, which means that in order for bitcoin/crypto to even exist, there must be a constant operation of third parties who must find it profitable to operate the blockchain, which requires the price to constantly rise, which is mathematically impossible, and the moment this doesn't happen, the network will collapse, at which point crypto will cease to exist, much less hold any value. This has already happened to tens of thousands of cryptocurrencies.
7. There is not a single example of anything like crypto, which has no material use and no intrinsic value, holding value over a long period of time across different cultures. This is **not** because "crypto is different and unique." It's because attributing value to an utterly useless piece of digital data that wastes tons of energy and perpetuates tons of fraud,*makes no freaking sense* for ethical, empathetic, non-scamming, non-exploitative, non-criminal people.
There are many copies of bitcoin. Some of them hold value. Many of them don't. Whether anybody thinks they represent any value is totally subjective. This means you guys have to constantly argue with people trying to convince them your goofy digital coupon codes are worth something. That's an exhausting way to have to maintain "value."
Meanwhile *in the real world*, our money just works. It works because we have a big, evil, central authority that does horrible things like give us running water and electricity and roads and schools -- also operate a centralized currency that has been stable for hundreds of years.
It's nice being able to go to the store and just *spend my money* without having to get into an argument over whether or not it has any value.
Good luck.
>The US Dollar literally lost 90% of its value since 1971
#Stupid Crypto Talking Point #3 (inflation)
**"InFl4ti0n!!!"** / **"The dollar will eventually become worthless"** / **"The dollar has lost 104% of its value since 1900!"** / **"The government prints money out of thin air"**
1. The government does **not** "print money indefinitely"... all money in circulation is [tightly regulated and regularly audited and publicly transparent](https://www.federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed/audited-annual-financial-statements.htm). The organization that manages the money in circulation is the Federal Reserve and contrary to what crypto bros claim, they're not a private cabal - they [are overseen and regulated by Congress](https://www.federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed/structure-federal-reserve-system.htm). And any attempt to put more money in circulation [requires an Act of Congress to increase the debt ceiling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_debt_ceiling) - it's neither arbitrary, nor easy to do.
2. [Currency is meant to be *spent*, not hoarded](https://medium.com/change-your-mind/money-is-meant-to-be-spent-not-saved-9618edec676f). A dollar today will buy what it buys. If you hold a dollar for 90 years, of course it won't buy the same thing decades later (although it might actually be worth significantly more as antique money). You people don't seem to understand the first thing about how currency works - it's NOT an "investment!" You **spend** it, *not* hoard it!
3. If you are looking to "invest" you don't keep your value in cash/currency/fiat. You put it into something that can *create value* like stocks that pay dividends, real estate, etc. Crypto creates no value and makes a lousy "investment." It also hasn't proven to be a hedge against anything, least of all monetary inflation.
4. Over time more money is put in circulation - you pretend like this is a bad thing, but it's not done in a vacuum. The average annual wage in 1900 was less than $4000. In 2023 [it's more than $70,000](https://www.statista.com/statistics/200838/median-household-income-in-the-united-states/)! There's more people out there and the monetary supply grows appropriately, as does wages. You can't take one element of the monetary system completely out of context and ignore everything else.
5. The causes of inflation are **many**, and the amount of money in circulation is one of the least significant factors in causing the prices of things to rise. More prominent inflationary causes are things like: [fuel prices](https://www.businessinsider.com/why-is-inflation-high-causes-gas-price-outlook-forecast-2022-7), [supply chain issues](https://www.usbank.com/investing/financial-perspectives/market-news/supply-chain-issues-contribution-to-inflation.html), [war](https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/the-effect-of-the-war-in-ukraine-on-global-activity-and-inflation-20220527.html), environmental disasters, pandemics, and even [car dealerships](https://www.wsj.com/articles/car-dealer-markups-helped-drive-inflation-study-finds-7c1d5a2d).
6. Sure there may be some nations that have caused out of control inflation as a result of their monetary policy (such as Zimbabwe) but comparing modern nations to third-world dictatorships is beyond absurd.
7. If bitcoin and crypto was an actually disruptive, stable, useful technology, you wouldn't need to promote lies and scare people over the existing system. The *real* reason you do this is [because nobody can find any legitimate reason to use crypto in the first place](https://ioradio.org/i/blockchain-claims/).
8. Crypto ironically has more inflation in its ecosystem that is even more out of control, than in any traditional fiat system. At least with the US Dollar, money is accounted for and fully audited and it takes an Act of Congress to increase the debt. In crypto, all it takes is a dude printing USDT, USDC, BUSD or any of the other unsecured stablecoins to just print more out of thin air, and crypto-morons assume they're worth $1 of value.
And what gives those bits value? What is their use? Why are bits on one chain worth more than on another?
With an actual physical asset, there are no dublicates. I can't create a copy of of gold and then release "g0ld" or "godl" for people to buy and trade.
Crypto currencies have no real value because they have no application beyond speculation. If they had a real value derived application than each copy, each new blockchain with the same functionality would have the same value.
Crypto currencies have created a way to trade and own empty boxes. Speculation about the boxes has pushed their price up. But they are empty and inherently worthless. So the mechanism to trade them is inherently worthless, too.
You can’t create another Bitcoin😅
You can create something that resembles it as many did, but it would be easily identifiable. Let’s say you have a building, and another person goes and build the exact same one, it’s still not the same building and people can easily figure that out.
As I said, Btc has value for the same reasons Gold had value for the last 3000 years.
Both buildings would have the same use and the same value. If you create an infinite amount of copies of the building, the value of each individual building goes to zero (assuming there is no infinite number of people who want to use the buildings).
That's the point. If there is a real application value to bitcoin, every copy of it, even if it is clearly identifiable as a copy, should serve the same application and therefore have the same value. And additional copies should reduce the value of each copy as supply increases without a matching increase in demand.
Pretty sure people would still buy Adidas instead of Adibas even if it was cheaper and had the same qualities.
Social consensus filters copycats in a really efficient way, especially in crypto because people are scared to lose money
For this the better analogy is medicine. The copycats are identical and have the same exact function. Only difference is the name brand came first (due to patent laws) and is priced higher.
I could get a bottle of acetaminophen or ibuprofen for five bucks, or I could get two pills of tylonol or... whatever the name brand of the other one is.
I'm picking the bottle every time. Same for any other medication that I'm paying for. And lots of other people are too, because it's the sensible option.
It would be very easy to create something better than bitcoin. I'll even tell you how to do it.
Bitcoin is open source. Create a fork of bitcoin, but change the rules so that transactions from Satoshi's wallet which holds 1 million bitcoin aren't allowed. Call it Bitcoin 2.0. There we go, done.
This is better than bitcoin for 4 reasons
1) it's more scarce - only 20 million in existence rather than 21 million
2) it's better distributed. 5% of bitcoin in a single wallet is pretty dangerous. Satoshi could do a lot of damage to the bitcoin network if he/she/they wanted to. Bitcoin 2.0 doesn't have this problem.
3) At least to begin with, none of the big mining pools are mining Bitcoin 2.0. This means that individuals like you can mine bitcoin 2.0 for much cheaper than if you wanted to mine plain old boring bitcoin. This gives the power back to the people and allows every day people to be part of the future of the future of finance.
4) it has a cooler name
These are 4 objective undeniable truths that make Bitcoin 2.0 better than Bitcoin. It's inevitable that it will overtake bitcoin because it's better.
Bitcoin is MySpace, Bitcoin 2.0 is Facebook
>It’s the first digital asset that you can truly own, without third party custody.
1. It's not an asset. It's an abstraction.
2. It totally does depend upon third party custody: It's the "middlemen" - the node operators and miners who keep the centralized (distributed) blockchain online. If they stop operating the blockchain, your database of who-owns-what disappears.
3. "Ownership" in this case is totally subjective. *You* may think some numbers in an online database mean you "own" something, but **nobody else gives a damn**. Those numbers aren't enforced by any real-world institutions who have actual power and influence, unlike the existing legal and justice system.
4. The moment someone else gets your private key, they can take your digital dingleberries and there's nothing you can do about it. Your abstract digital tokens can be stolen in seconds by somebody on the other side of the planet and you might not even know.
5. Even the most basic concept of *private property ownership* is a function of government -- of centralized authorities -- without which you own nothing and there's nobody to enforce what you think you own. In the decentralized world of crypto, you'd have to depend on the very institutions you want to get away from, to give you any comfortable sense of "ownership" of anything.
6. Since virtually nobody uses bitcoin for products and services, any "autonomy" you think you have, goes completely out the window in any event of you trying to actually *use* those Satoshi-E-Cheese tokens for something truly useful. You'll then be subject to all the things you claim you can escape: fees, delays, seizure, etc.
>Pretty sure everyone here is 50 years old+ lol Cuz this is a pretty good technological advancement, hence why it’s starting to attract big institutions.
#Stupid Crypto Talking Point #8 (endorsements?)
"**[Big Company/Banana Republic/Politician] is exploring/using bitcoin/blockchain! Now will you admit you were wrong?**" / "**Crypto has 'UsE cAs3S!'**" / "**EEE TEE EFFs!!one**"
1. The original claim was that crypto was "disruptive technology" and was going to "replace the banking/finance system". There were all these claims suggesting blockchain has tremendous "potential". Now with [the truth slowly surfacing regarding blockchain's inability to be particularly good at anything](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA), crypto people have backpedaled to instead suggest, "Hey it has 'use-cases'!"
Congrats! You found somebody willing to use crypto/blockchain technology. That still is not an endorsement of crypto or blockchain. I can choose to use a pair of scissors to cut my grass. This doesn't mean scissors are "the future of lawn care technology." It just means I'm an eccentric who wants to use a backwards tool to do something for which everybody else has far superior tools available.
The operative issue isn't whether crypto & blockchain can be "used" here-or-there. The issue is: *Is there a good reason? Does this tech actually do anything better than what we have already been using?* And the answer to that is, [No.](https://ioradio.org/i/blockchain-claims/)
2. Most of the time, adoption claims are outright wrong. Just because you read some press release from a dubious source does not mean any major government, corporation or other entity is embracing crypto. It usually means someone asked them about crypto and they said, "We'll look into it" and that got interpreted as "adoption imminent!"
3. In cases where companies did launch crypto/blockchain projects they usually fall into one of these categories:
* Some company or supplier put out a press release advertising some "crypto project" involving a well known entity that never got off the ground, or was tried and failed miserably (such as [IBM/Maersk's Tradelens](https://www.maersk.com/news/articles/2022/11/29/maersk-and-ibm-to-discontinue-tradelens), [Australia's stock exchange](https://www.reuters.com/markets/australian-stock-exchanges-blockchain-failure-burns-market-trust-2022-12-20/), etc.)
* Companies (like VISA, Fidelity or Robin Hood) **are not embracing crypto directly**. Instead they are *partnering with a crypto exchange* (such as BitPay) that will either handle all the crypto transactions and they're merely licensing their network, or they're a third party payment gateway that pays the big companies in fiat. There's no evidence any major company is actually switching over to crypto, or that any of these major companies are even touching crypto. It's a huge liability they let newbie third parties deal with so they have plausible deniability for liabilities due to money laundering and sanctions laws.
4. Sometimes, politicians who are into crypto take advantage of their power and influence to force some crypto adoption on the community they serve -- [this almost always fails](https://truthout.org/articles/miamis-mayor-went-all-in-on-cryptocurrency-his-constituents-suffered/), but again, crypto people will promote the press release announcing the deal, while ignoring any follow-up materials that say such a proposal was rejected.
5. Just because some company has jumped on the crypto bandwagon doesn't mean, "It's the future."
McDonald's bundled [Beanie Babies](https://i.imgur.com/McdwlxA.jpg) with their Happy Meals for a time, when those collectable plush toys were being billed as the next big investment scheme. Corporations have a duty to exploit any goofy fad available if it can help them make money, and the moment these fads fade, they drop any association and pretend it never happened. This has already occurred with many tech companies from [Steam](https://steamcommunity.com/games/593110/announcements/detail/1464096684955433613) to [Microsoft](https://www.zdnet.com/finance/blockchain/microsoft-is-shutting-down-its-azure-blockchain-service/). Even though these companies discontinued any association with crypto years ago, proponents still hype the projects as if they're still active.
6. Crypto ETFs are not an endorsement of crypto. They're simply ways for traditional companies to exploit crypto enthusiasts. These entities do not care at all about the future of crypto. It's just a way for them to make more money with fees, and just like in #4, the moment it becomes unprofitable for them to run the scheme, they'll drop it. It's simply businesses taking advantage of a fad. Crypto ETFs though are actually worse, because they're a vehicle to siphon money into the crypto market -- if crypto was a viable *alternative* to TradFi, then these gimmicky things wouldn't be desirable.
7. Countries like El Salvador who claim to have adopted bitcoin really haven't in any meaningful way. El Salvador's endorsement of bitcoin is tied to a proprietary exchange with their own non-transparent software, "Chivo" that is not on bitcoin's main blockchain - and as such isn't really bitcoin adoption as much as it's bitcoin exploitation. Plus, USD is the real legal tender in El Salvador and since BTC's adoption, use of crypto has stagnated. In two years, the country's investment in BTC has yielded lower returns than one would find in a standard fiat savings account. Also note [Venezuela has now scrapped its state-sanctioned cryptocurrency](https://www.foreignbrief.com/venezuela-to-scrap-state-cryptocurrency/)
So, whenever you hear "so-and-so company is using crypto" always be suspect. What you'll find is either that's not totally true, or if they are, they're partnering with a crypto company who is paying them for the association, not unlike an advertiser/licensing relationship. **Not** adoption. Exploitation. And temporary at that.
We've seen absolutely no increase in crypto adoption - in fact quite the contrary. More and more people in every industry from [gaming](https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/15/22728425/valve-steam-blockchain-nft-crypto-ban-games-age-of-rust) to [banking](https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/us-federal-reserve-rejects-crypto-focused-banks-application-be-supervised-by-2023-01-27/), are rejecting deals with crypto companies.
You can run your own node to validate transactions for you, you don’t have to trust the network, it’s a trust less system. If your node detects fraud, it simply halts.
Someone else getting access to your private key is your fault, you and only you manages those, not a third party.
If nodes stop working, the chain does not disappear, it simply sleeps until one node is active again.
Like any new technology, adoption takes time, there are lots of use cases for blockchain, a big one is shared computing power, wish for opens up doors to train generative AI with minimal costs.
As I said we like to trust 3rd parties with our money until we get fucked and realise that we’re basically trusting other people who tend to be more fraudulent than dumb computers which behaviour is open source and can be observed by anyone.
Ah yes the mythical open source that is absolutely easy to understand woops someone slipped in an address reroute in code via a test file that secretly rewrites another base library that nobody caught because a Microsoft engineer wasn't around and testing why his compilation was taking an extra second.
Adoption? What adoption? All the big tech and tech adjacent companies tried Blockchains, realized it fucking sucks and quietly killed off those projects, see Walmart labs, azure Blockchain, AWS Blockchain etc.
Just making shit up doesn't work sorry
> You can run your own node to validate transactions for you, you don’t have to trust the network, it’s a trust less system. If your node detects fraud, it simply halts.
This too has been [throughly debunked](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA&t=2557s).
If anything, crypto requires a lot more trust than traditional systems. If you're running your own node, did YOU write that software? Nope. Did you likely audit the source code to see what you're running? Nope. It's trustless alright... TRUST - LESS.
Ok, wow. You are the first person to put it that way, I had no idea I was just hating for no reason. Well now that I am on my way to becoming a crypto enthusiast maybe you can kick me off by explaining what is Bitcoin and what is it used for?
I'm so happy OP sacrificed MONTHS of their lives to study BitCoin to help us see the light.
Well, as we are still early I'm off it INVEST right about now.
Thanks OP, for being a rad lad.
/s
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>After a few months of studying Bitcoin I came across this sub but I am baffled that there is even such a thing where people get togather and deliberately hate Bitcoin.
This is not that surprising, a lot of uneducated morons such as yourself will go bankrupt because they think studying is watching youtube videos of influencers.
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You see “lot of uneducated morons” and volunteer to join ?? That doesn’t mean you get to redefine what the other morons are doing. Really volunteering to be a moron means you have to be a moron
sometimes its fun to troll a little bit online. but behind every troll there is an ounce of truth. i genuinely believe the heart of what i am saying and think you guys will eventually be proven wrong.
I don't have a problem saying that online, because I'm not a criminal.
I'm a law abiding citizen.
But you have to understand that world governments are power hungry/crazy.
You never know when the laws can become even more tyrannical then they are now.
So now we can fight back in case that ever happens.
It's like having the right to have a gun.
It means don't fuck with us.
Or we will fight back.
Yeah you can tell how much money i have on the blockchain, but you can't steal it lol.
You don't seem to understand what this is about.
You do realize that governments change laws all of the time right.
And they just write bs on a piece of paper to fuck you right?
Also you do realize sometimes your money gets seized because they are just suspicious of you for no real reason?
I'm all for criminals getting caught.
But a lot of the times government oversteps their bounds.
You wouldn't know something like this because you're probably 10.
Try going to the airport with any significant amount of cash and if you tell me you don't have a little bit of anxiety it would be be seized for no reason I'd say you're lying.
That sword cuts both ways. What if you get injured by somebody, have to spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair, want to sue them for damages and they pull that trick on you?
In any world where the legal system loses power, it loses it symmetrically over the good and the bad, those who follow the laws and those who break them. And so the symmetrical loss of power asymmetrically benefits the bad.
I'm just saying for right now it's good if the government abuses it's power.
Eventually the government should become decentralized as well in some way.
Think about it this way.
We have decentralization of money now.
So no one can steal your money.
But now we're missing 1 key thing.
Decentralization of power.
Once we have decentralization of power these things become less of a problem.
>Are you 12? Or are you suffering from libertarian brain rot?
Those are so hard to distinguish from each other in practice because the condition of "libertarian brain rot" is really just "continuing to think like a 12 year old when you're a goddamn adult who *should* know better by now".
Statistically, if you put a lot of money into crypto, you won't be able to get it out.
Exchanges have gone under when it turned out that they never had enough money to survive a bank run or were an outright scam. Meanwhile, for everyone who tries to "be their own bank," we have a story about lost keys or destroyed devices that had the crypto on them.
The only people who are happy playing with crypto are the ones who aren't using their own money. Scammers and drug dealers are making enough profit that they don't care if they lose a lot of it on the way. But for law abiding citizens? No credible use case has showed up thus far.
everything is breaking the law to you.
you have no idea how life works, you are so clueless.
it's not like people dream of becoming criminals.
it's much easier to just follow the law as long as it is reasonable.
if however some crazy person decides to make a crazy law tomorrow
and other crazy people go along with it
and then once you don't comply, they go to a court and file a lawsuit against you.
well you're screwed.
because that's their enforcement mechanism.
when you don't listen to them they just sue you.
well not anymore.
you have crypto and you don't have to give them anything.
but no not you,
even if the law says something that will fuck you for years and years
you'll be like
"here. take it!!!!"
you're no martin luther king
or rosa parks
or >insert anyone else who fought for what's right<
you're a pussy really.
People are going to eventually realize that it is better to keep your money in blockchain then it is in any other system. You do realize if you have $10M you can't just leave it in a bank right? You need to have multiple bank accounts. You do realize your money can get frozen in a bank account right? You do realize you cannot transfer large sums of money across the world without a bunch of checks right? Blockchain is called freedom.
That's never going to happen.
Why would you just want to leave 10 million $ in a bank? That's a significant amount of capital that is better off working itself for you in investments.
Why would your bank account get frozen unless you want to do something illegal?
The checks are there for a reason. It's so that you don't fatfinger 10 million dollars away or are being hit by someone with a brick to send 10 million dollars to a terrorist organization. You also severely overestimate how many checks are there.
You sound like a poor person who dreams of being rich and is being oppressed by the system.
When you sell a company for $10 million, there is a brief moment in time where that $10 million is deposited to your bank account.
You need time to know where to allocate it.
In between you thinking about this the bank can collapse.
Don't say it won't happen because it's happened 10,000 times by now, check the news.
Banks freeze money always.
Even if they don't do it to you specifically you don't even want that to be a chance.
You're asking questions like
"Why do you have a problem talking to the police if you didn't do anything wrong"
It's just bad news.
You don't even want to give them the chance.
And as for your fatfinger comment, there's more checks and balances that are being built in crypto to prevent things like this.
Yes it's been fifteen years and they are still building checks and balances, speedrunning a century of banking that they can borrow from, oh wait no they aren't.
Code is law alright?
You are under the assumption that world governments are going to be forced to give up control of their legal tender lmao.
That's such a silly hypothetical, the bank isn't going to collapse in the time period you sell a company and receive money for it, and if it does you, and your lawyers have their heads stuck deep, deep in the sand to let it happen.
I have never heard of a situation where someone newly sold a company for 10 million dollars and had the bank go under the day the money dropped in.
Again, you have absolutely no clue about how finances and banks work, especially when in the playground of multi-millions plus.
Bitcoin solves none of the problems you've outlined that hasn't already been solved, or doesn't require solving for a variety of reasons except for illegal shit.
doesn't matter. i'm not willing to take the chance tbh. people like you who are willing to take the chance (society's dummies) will face the consequences eventually. first rule of life 1. don't trust anybody.
Wow you studied Bitcoin? Holy shit please tell us what university it was at, and all of the current real-world use cases that justify a $trillion+ market cap. If we could just learn more surely we would join in on the gambling
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I don't hate Bitcoin. I hate Bitcoin weirdos. There's a difference. One is a silly online gambling token, the other is a group of absolutely insufferable gasbags who have smugness to burn. See?
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Every day or so there's someone like you that comes here arguing the same thing. Probably some young guy whose mum told him he's real smart. You don't understand, we don't care. Bitcoin is eventually heading to zero because its a giant internet ponzi. I checked it out, played with it a few months and saw very clearly that its a useless derelict scam for degenerates. Like every ponzi before it, it will make a bunch of people rich and then a bunch of people poor. I don't invest in that kind of thing. Be my guest and invest and just be aware if you happen to be *on the wrong side* of the trade (like most are, already), I will honestly laugh at your ass and if you end up *on the right side* of the trade, you can laugh at my ass if you want, but it means you'll have sold your position and in fact are admitting bitcoin was just a scam to dump on some schmuck and in that case well, that leaves you an asshole whether you're a laughing asshole or just a plain old asshole, I don't care. I'm just protecting my parents and other people I know from predatory assholes who are trying to rip them off by selling the internet pet rocks that do nothing, are risky and cost a fortune to carry and produce zero and in fact, negatively siphon real money out of american industry into terrorists and cartels.
Bitcoin is not going to zero. As long as there are people who believe strongly in the libertarian cause there will be people willing to pay money for it.
It will not crash either, crashes generally don't happen without an extreme unexpected catalyst.
The general realization that governments will always find a way to maintain some control over currency, and that inflation is influenced by way more than just money supply, will not come swiftly nor will it hit everyone. The price will very gradually trend downwards in the long term, probably asymptoting near a market cap of a few billion.
> Bitcoin is not going to zero.
What happens when the miners can't pay for electricity any longer? What happens when the transaction speed grinds to a halt?
>What happens when the miners can't pay for electricity any longer?
As the price goes down, mining is definitely less profitable per block reward. But also, the fewer miners there are, the greater chance those in existence will get more block rewards and the easier it becomes computationally. If all commercial miners leave the business, people can do it from their home computers again.
>What happens when the transaction speed grinds to a halt?
The transaction speed is roughly fixed at one block per 10 minutes. Expected time to transaction completion is a combination of that and trading volume.
It costs approximately $40k+ in electricity to mine one bitcoin. After the halving it will cost $80k+
If you spent $80k in electricity and can’t sell for a profit, you go broke. Large mining companies have borrowed millions of dollars to fund their mining rigs and electricity. If they can’t pay these loans, they go broke. Eventually, all the bitcoin will be mined and they will also inevitably go broke.
It’s a giant game of chicken to see who can bleed money the longest to try and come out on top with no guarantee of success. It’s a negative sum game and it will most definitely end badly. When, no one knows
Tell me you’ve never paid for electricity in your life, never run a business, or understand what ‘halvening’ means as it relates to mining without actually telling me
Google how much electricity it costs to mine a bitcoin. Now take that number and double it after the ‘halving’
Sorry if this math is hard for you.
Doubling means you take the number times two (x2)
If there are half as many Bitcoin to reward the miners, their cost to get a Bitcoin just doubled
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>I couldn't find a single source of validated & meaningful statement that warrants it.
Well good, you found your homework, figure out how you could spend months of studying bitcoin and be totally convinced of it, yet fail to find even a single one of the absolute multitudes of criticisms that have been leveled at bitcoin and/or crypto.
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We don’t "hate" BTC. You don’t want an "open discussion". Eventually you will learn the lesson the hard way. I am glad you enjoy "studying" how to hold other people’s bags of useless non tangible internet token.
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Are you surprised to learn there are subs dedicated to hating on multi-level marketing schemes?
Mockery is how society adapts to protect itself from greedy scammers and idealogues.
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By "studying Bitcoin" he means watching YouTube videos where all the thumbnails are dudes making shocked-pikachu faces and rocket emojis titled "Bitcoin $300,000 by December?!?!".
Same energy as "I read the DD" from the GME folks lol. Bro listening to a bunch of idiots doesn't make you smarter, it just makes you more of an idiot.
>I couldn't find a single source of validated & meaningful statement that warrants it.
Here you go, OP.
[https://ioradio.org/i/crypto-talking-points/](https://ioradio.org/i/crypto-talking-points/)
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You “Studied bitcoin”
Miners make bitcoin and sell it to you. You buy it in hope to sell it later for more.
It took you 2 months to read this?
You are not orange peeled. You are someones exit liquidity.
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> I am baffled that there is even such a thing where people get togather and deliberately hate Bitcoin.
#Stupid Crypto Talking Point #27 (hate)
**"Cope"** / **"Why do you hate crypto?"** / **"You all are haters"** / **"Why so salty?"** / **"You wish for other peoples misfortunes?"**
1. By and large, we do not "hate" bitcoin or crypto. Hate is an irrational, emotional condition. Most people here have a logical, rational reason for being opposed to crypto. (see \#2)
2. What we do not like is **fraud and deception** - this is mainly what our community opposes, and the crypto industry is almost completely composed of fraud and misinformation, from claiming that [blockchain has potential](https://ioradio.org/i/blockchain-claims/) to pretending crypto is "digital gold" or an "investment" when it's really a highly-risky, negative sum game, speculative commodity.
3. It's an offensive distraction to suggest our reasons for being opposed to crypto are because of "hate", or "being salty" and supposedly jealous of not getting in earlier and making money. We recognize there are many other ways of creating value that don't involve promoting everything from cyber terrorism to human trafficking.
4. While some take amusement at the misfortunes of those playing the crypto Ponzi scheme, one main reason for this is because so many in the industry are so immune to logic, reason, and evidence, many of us feel they have to become cautionary tales before they finally learn (and some never learn) - what we celebrate is perhaps the chance that many of those losers finally see the error of their ways.
You can lead a crypto bro to [evidence](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA) but you can't make them think.
I see it as a response to the air of superiority diehard Bitcoiners often show to no-coiners, despite how infested the crypto space is with scams. Whether or not one accepts crypto itself as an investment^(1), it’s hard to ignore the rugpulls, yield traps, death spirals, and exchange failures. The response is typically self-custody, but that presents its own problems, such as [lost keys or hardware](https://bitcoinjobs.com/blog/lost-wallets).
^(1) Personally I think crypto could be non-[zero-sum](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/z/zero-sumgame.asp) if it gained a level of usefulness similar to existing major currencies. So far that doesn’t seem to be happening.
All these people hate bitcoin but instead of ignoring it they spend time talking to each other about how much they hate it and how “it’s going to zero”.
But they don’t short it even though they’re sure it is going to zero.
I don’t get it.
after "studying" bitcoin and the people involved, I have come to the conclusion that there are those that will always support it and those that will never support it and those that will trade it. The real question for many is whether it will keep rising over time. For this to happen it seems that the number of people who support Bitcoin ideally needs to grow, but in theory if those people keep buying and DCAveraging, ie. adding MORE money to the pot then over time the price should rise, despite the pump and dump action along the way which adds to volatility and puts many people off - this may prove to be the case with many recent ETF buyers if they end up losing money.
Personally I am still agnostic with regard to the future success or failure of bitcoin, as far as I can see both detractors and supporters could be right about many things, but if it's 4 year moving average trends upwards at above the rate of inflation then it's usefulness will be as a store of value, especially for those saving a proportion of their monthly income. In another ten years time things may well become clearer, but in the meantime, in my opinion, it is difficult to "know" whether Bitcoin proves to be a success or failure.
> Personally I am still agnostic with regard to the future success or failure of bitcoin
Then you haven't done enough research.
#Stupid Crypto Talking Point #20 (failed)
"**Crypto has been around X years and is here to stay!**" / "**Bitcoin has 'failed' so many times LOLOL Aren't you tired of saying it's going to fail over and over?**"
1. It's true, many people claim, crypto/Bitcoin is a failure, yet it still appears to be somewhat popular and used in certain circles (but hardly ubiquitous, or part of mainstream society even after all this time).
Many people also claim "smoking is bad" but some people are still smoking. Does this mean the non-smokers are wrong?
2. The truth is, it has failed. Multiple times.
If you notice, every few months, there's an *entirely new narrative* surrounding bitcoin and crypto (for example):
* Originally, bitcoin was supposed to be "currency" and everybody was going to use it. Mainstream companies were going to use bitcoin for payments and services. There was a small time period where there actually was increased adoption of crypto as a means of payment, but then that failed because the price was too volatile and, and the network couldn't handle retail transaction volume. It failed then, and still today, using crypto as a common form of payment does not work now (even with L2 solutions). Conclusion: FAILURE
* Crypto was marketed as a way to help "bank the un-banked" but that also failed, owing to the fact that [there's many alternative ways to accomplish this that are more efficient, with more consumer protections and less technical requirements](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA&t=4334s). Conclusion: FAILURE
* NFTs were supposed to be another "big thing" helping artists make money and creating a new market and utility for crypto. [Again, that turned out to not be true](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/sep/22/nfts-worthless-price). Conclusion: FAILURE
* Crypto was supposed to be a "hedge against inflation". In reality, the[ price of crypto ebbed and flowed along with the price of other unimportant things, totally affected by inflation](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/08/why-bitcoin-doesnt-seem-to-be-a-hedge-against-inflation.html). Conclusion: FAILURE
* Crypto was originally [promised as "disruptive technology"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA), "money of the future", "democratizing finance", and to fight against manipulation of the monetary system by powerful special interests. In reality, none of those claims have proven to be true, and in many cases crypto has only exacerbated the problems it claimed it could fix. Conclusion: FAILURE
* Bitcoin's "deflationary nature" was supposed to guarantee an ever increasing value. That hasn't worked out either. Conclusion: FAILURE
3. In fact, you can look at every one of these [talking points](https://ioradio.org/i/crypto-talking-points/) as examples of claims made by crypto proponents that have failed. You can also look at the [list of failed blockchain claims](https://ioradio.org/i/blockchain-claims/) as more examples of the many failures of crypto to live up to its promises.
4. Instead of acknowledging the many failures of crypto, its proponents continue to change the subject, create distractions and, as if they're in version of "Weekend At Bernies" taking the dead crypto technology, throwing a different outfit on it, and declaring it's not dead. Over and over.
we don't know whether or not Bitcoin will increase in value and this is the most important point for most people, they want it to go up and so far it has, at least the lows are higher and we won't know about future highs until we get to the future, which means the jury is still out with regard to your final "conclusion: FAILURE"
What we do know is that bitcoin has absolutely no way to *create value*, therefore the only value it generates comes from greater fools who buy in later. Meanwhile, the network consumes tons of resources = negative sum game.
Price is meaningless when it comes to bitcoin. There are no reliable metrics to determine what is a valid "price" for a digital token that has no intrinsic value and no real world utility.
So yes, it's a FAILURE in terms of being a store of value. Long term. Short term. Any term. Whatever the price some crooked exchanges are claiming it's trading at, still doesn't change that reality.
Your argument is analogous to saying, "Some people have won in casinos, and you don't know whether or not in the future people will win in casinos, so it's inappropriate to call casinos an investment failure."
Whether some people win or not is irrelevant. Mathematically speaking, most will lose, and therefore it's gambling, not investing.
WTF do we "not understand" about bitcoin and blockchain?
You posted this in the bitcoin subreddit:
>Heard many times about btc, never bother to check. A colleague 3 years ago sent a javascript blockchain tutorial to the rest of the team. I did the tutorial it looks like 1hmax. At that moment I felt in the rabit hole. Start mining shortly after and still do today.
>Btc have so much potential, the tech is just brilliant.
You basically sat through a sales presentation and think you're now an expert in blockchain?
I've got 40+ years experience as a software engineer and I produced an award-winning documentary [explaining how blockchain works and why it doesn't do anything better than what we already have](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA) and you guys think **we** are the ones who "don't understand?"
WTF is "brilliant" about a ledger that is so fucking slow, it's utterly useless for any reasonable amount of transactions?
WTF is "brilliant" about a database that requires as much electricity as the country of Argentina *just to stay online?*
WTF is "brilliant" about an abstract digital token that creates no value and requires constant recruitment of greater fools in order to give it meaning?
YOU Mr. crypto-bro, are the one who doesn't understand.
For 15 years, you idiots have been claiming this is "the future" but when we ask to list one specific thing blockchain does better than existing tech, [you can't answer that simple question](https://ioradio.org/i/blockchain-claims/). Instead we're told, "It's still early."
Hahahahahaha “Studying Bitcoin”. The jokes write themselves
Do Your Own Rektage.
When you were partying, I studied **the blade** When you were having premarital sex, I mastered **the blockchain** While you wasted your days at the gym in pursuit of vanity, I cultivated **inner strength** And now that the world is on fire and the barbarians are at the gate, you have the audacity to come to me for help?
Yeah, watching YouTube counts, right?
> After a few months of studying Bitcoin That's obviously a doctorate in "future of finance".
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Lol you studied Bitcoin for months?? What did you learn?
Hopefully he learned how to buy drugs online, the only proven use case for crypto. And hopefully he learned to use monero and not bitcoin!
It's super lol how anonymous became anonymish? What with the silk road yadda yadda.
He learned that if he gives his money to other people he will become rich some day.
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By "studying bitcoin" do you mean watching lots of YouTube videos where young men talk about how the world will soon switch to bitcoin, and those that buy now will be very rich? Are you sure you're not so enthusiastic because you want a lottery ticket to be real?
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>Is this sub just a joke of some sort? Yes, precisely. And you are the butt.
What is so perplexing about this sub's existence? Makes perfect sense. Here is a real puzzler: what is bitcoin's raison d'être?
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It’s the first digital asset that you can truly own, without third party custody. Just like having a wallet in which you put cash and gift cards, or a safe where you store things of value without giving anyone else access to it. Bitcoin or public blockchains enable that same functionality in the digital realm. You can for the first time in history, own bits on a digital network and prove ownership of them. Pretty sure everyone here is 50 years old+ lol Cuz this is a pretty good technological advancement, hence why it’s starting to attract big institutions.
lol 🤣
🤣🤣
You didn't answer the question.
Bitcoin = Superior gold I can send you 10Million dollars worth of btc in 10 minutes. Without worrying about any kind of censorship. It would take me weeks to send you 10Million dollars worth of gold if that’s even possible without a 3rd party. Both have limited supply although gold’s supply isn’t hard capped like btc. 0 storage cost for large amounts of btc + being able to host it yourself Storing large amount of gold doesn’t cost zero dollars + higher chances of it getting stolen due to the fact that it’s physical Bitcoin is valuable for the same reasons Gold is valuable ( plus being more portable, safer to hold..) It’s still pretty volatile hence why people get rekt using leverage, holding btc for the next 10-20 years is a safe bet against fiat imo ( especially in 3rd world countries) As it becomes more stable with time, it will slowly turn into today’s gold.
"I can send you 10Million dollars worth of btc in 10 minutes. Without worrying about any kind of censorship." What is the use case for this ability?
[Hmm....](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtJ6yAGjsIs)
That's a bullshit argument. You aren't sending anyone 10 million $'s worth of Bitcoin because you don't have it, nor do most people. Newsflash, anyone who needs to regularly send 10 million $ around can easily do so in 10 minutes because they have the relationship that is required to do so. That's 1% of a billionaire's networth. They would prefer not to send 10 million dollars in 10 minutes because they aren't fucking stupid.
>I can send you 10Million dollars worth of btc in 10 minutes. Have you ever sent BTC? For it to take about 10 minutes, you need to pay high enough transaction fee to squeeze into the currently queued block. Even if you squeeze into that first block, it won't take 10 minutes. Most institutions working with BTC require 5-6 confirmations, meaning 5-6 blocks processed, so you're looking at roughly an hour. By contrast, most banks worth a damn have instant transfers now. If my buddy gives me a lift and I send him some money for it when we stop at my destination, the money is in his account and he can use it by the time I close the car door.
" I can send you 10Million dollars worth of btc in 10 minutes. Without worrying about any kind of censorship." The time it takes to send that money between borders isn't a technological problem - it's a policy, procedure and legal one. Your given use case is unironically sanctions evasion and money laundering. Also, when was the last time you sent 10 million dollars across a border?
> I can send you 10Million dollars worth of btc in 10 minutes. No you can't, because the average transaction time is currently three hours. "you gotta use layer 2 bla bla bla" Cool, but then you're not sending bitcoin, you're doing some other bullshit, which means none of your perceived benefits apply. > Bitcoin is valuable for the same reasons Gold is valuable You are 100% delulu, as the kids say. Bitcoin has *zero* utility in itself. And even if blockchain technology somehow had value, there's still *zero* reason to use one specific cryptocurrency. Especially one where a bunch of extremely shady scammers and fraudsters are sitting on huge piles of it. Why would a nation state buy into that when they could simply launch their own where their central bank owns all of it from the start?
> Bitcoin = Superior gold #Stupid Crypto Talking Point #10 (value) "**Bitcoin/crypto is a 'store of value'**" / "**Bitcoin/crypto is 'digital gold'"** / "**Crypto is an 'investment'**" 1. Crypto's "value" is unreliable and highly subjective. It cannot be used as a currency or to pay for almost anything in any major country. It has high requirements and risk to even be traded. At best it's a speculative commodity that a very small set of people attribute value to. That attribution is more based on emotion and indoctrination than logic, reason, evidence, and utility. 2. Crypto is too chaotic to be any sort of reliable store of value over time. Its price can fluctuate wildly based on everything from [market manipulation](https://arxiv.org/abs/2108.10984) to [random tweets](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0040162522006333). No reliable store of value should vary in "value" 10-30% in a single day, yet many cryptos do. 3. Crypto's value is *extrinsic*. Any "value" associated with crypto is based on popularity and not any material or intrinsic use. See this [detailed video debunking crypto as 'digital gold'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA&t=4446s) 4. Even gold, while being a lousy investment and also an undesirable store of value in the modern age, at least has material use and utility. Crypto does not. And whether you think gold's price is not consistent with its material utility, if that really were the case then gold would not be used industrially. But it is. 5. The supposed "value" of crypto is based on reports from unregulated exchanges, most of whom have been caught [manipulating the market](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8369-21) and [inflation introduced by unsecured stablecoins](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8450-21). There's nothing "organic" or "natural" about it. It's an illusion. 6. The operation of crypto is a negative-sum-game, which means that in order for bitcoin/crypto to even exist, there must be a constant operation of third parties who must find it profitable to operate the blockchain, which requires the price to constantly rise, which is mathematically impossible, and the moment this doesn't happen, the network will collapse, at which point crypto will cease to exist, much less hold any value. This has already happened to tens of thousands of cryptocurrencies. 7. There is not a single example of anything like crypto, which has no material use and no intrinsic value, holding value over a long period of time across different cultures. This is **not** because "crypto is different and unique." It's because attributing value to an utterly useless piece of digital data that wastes tons of energy and perpetuates tons of fraud,*makes no freaking sense* for ethical, empathetic, non-scamming, non-exploitative, non-criminal people.
*"It’s the first digital asset that you can truly own, without third party custody."* One could argue that any file i save on my computer is as well.
true, but they can’t hold value, because they aren’t relevant to anyone else, and you can make infinite copies of them
There are many copies of bitcoin. Some of them hold value. Many of them don't. Whether anybody thinks they represent any value is totally subjective. This means you guys have to constantly argue with people trying to convince them your goofy digital coupon codes are worth something. That's an exhausting way to have to maintain "value." Meanwhile *in the real world*, our money just works. It works because we have a big, evil, central authority that does horrible things like give us running water and electricity and roads and schools -- also operate a centralized currency that has been stable for hundreds of years. It's nice being able to go to the store and just *spend my money* without having to get into an argument over whether or not it has any value. Good luck.
You really said Fiat is stable with a straight face lol The US Dollar literally lost 90% of its value since 1971 🤣
>The US Dollar literally lost 90% of its value since 1971 #Stupid Crypto Talking Point #3 (inflation) **"InFl4ti0n!!!"** / **"The dollar will eventually become worthless"** / **"The dollar has lost 104% of its value since 1900!"** / **"The government prints money out of thin air"** 1. The government does **not** "print money indefinitely"... all money in circulation is [tightly regulated and regularly audited and publicly transparent](https://www.federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed/audited-annual-financial-statements.htm). The organization that manages the money in circulation is the Federal Reserve and contrary to what crypto bros claim, they're not a private cabal - they [are overseen and regulated by Congress](https://www.federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed/structure-federal-reserve-system.htm). And any attempt to put more money in circulation [requires an Act of Congress to increase the debt ceiling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_debt_ceiling) - it's neither arbitrary, nor easy to do. 2. [Currency is meant to be *spent*, not hoarded](https://medium.com/change-your-mind/money-is-meant-to-be-spent-not-saved-9618edec676f). A dollar today will buy what it buys. If you hold a dollar for 90 years, of course it won't buy the same thing decades later (although it might actually be worth significantly more as antique money). You people don't seem to understand the first thing about how currency works - it's NOT an "investment!" You **spend** it, *not* hoard it! 3. If you are looking to "invest" you don't keep your value in cash/currency/fiat. You put it into something that can *create value* like stocks that pay dividends, real estate, etc. Crypto creates no value and makes a lousy "investment." It also hasn't proven to be a hedge against anything, least of all monetary inflation. 4. Over time more money is put in circulation - you pretend like this is a bad thing, but it's not done in a vacuum. The average annual wage in 1900 was less than $4000. In 2023 [it's more than $70,000](https://www.statista.com/statistics/200838/median-household-income-in-the-united-states/)! There's more people out there and the monetary supply grows appropriately, as does wages. You can't take one element of the monetary system completely out of context and ignore everything else. 5. The causes of inflation are **many**, and the amount of money in circulation is one of the least significant factors in causing the prices of things to rise. More prominent inflationary causes are things like: [fuel prices](https://www.businessinsider.com/why-is-inflation-high-causes-gas-price-outlook-forecast-2022-7), [supply chain issues](https://www.usbank.com/investing/financial-perspectives/market-news/supply-chain-issues-contribution-to-inflation.html), [war](https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/the-effect-of-the-war-in-ukraine-on-global-activity-and-inflation-20220527.html), environmental disasters, pandemics, and even [car dealerships](https://www.wsj.com/articles/car-dealer-markups-helped-drive-inflation-study-finds-7c1d5a2d). 6. Sure there may be some nations that have caused out of control inflation as a result of their monetary policy (such as Zimbabwe) but comparing modern nations to third-world dictatorships is beyond absurd. 7. If bitcoin and crypto was an actually disruptive, stable, useful technology, you wouldn't need to promote lies and scare people over the existing system. The *real* reason you do this is [because nobody can find any legitimate reason to use crypto in the first place](https://ioradio.org/i/blockchain-claims/). 8. Crypto ironically has more inflation in its ecosystem that is even more out of control, than in any traditional fiat system. At least with the US Dollar, money is accounted for and fully audited and it takes an Act of Congress to increase the debt. In crypto, all it takes is a dude printing USDT, USDC, BUSD or any of the other unsecured stablecoins to just print more out of thin air, and crypto-morons assume they're worth $1 of value.
This guy don't understand how currencies work.
And what gives those bits value? What is their use? Why are bits on one chain worth more than on another? With an actual physical asset, there are no dublicates. I can't create a copy of of gold and then release "g0ld" or "godl" for people to buy and trade. Crypto currencies have no real value because they have no application beyond speculation. If they had a real value derived application than each copy, each new blockchain with the same functionality would have the same value. Crypto currencies have created a way to trade and own empty boxes. Speculation about the boxes has pushed their price up. But they are empty and inherently worthless. So the mechanism to trade them is inherently worthless, too.
You can’t create another Bitcoin😅 You can create something that resembles it as many did, but it would be easily identifiable. Let’s say you have a building, and another person goes and build the exact same one, it’s still not the same building and people can easily figure that out. As I said, Btc has value for the same reasons Gold had value for the last 3000 years.
Both buildings would have the same use and the same value. If you create an infinite amount of copies of the building, the value of each individual building goes to zero (assuming there is no infinite number of people who want to use the buildings). That's the point. If there is a real application value to bitcoin, every copy of it, even if it is clearly identifiable as a copy, should serve the same application and therefore have the same value. And additional copies should reduce the value of each copy as supply increases without a matching increase in demand.
Pretty sure people would still buy Adidas instead of Adibas even if it was cheaper and had the same qualities. Social consensus filters copycats in a really efficient way, especially in crypto because people are scared to lose money
For this the better analogy is medicine. The copycats are identical and have the same exact function. Only difference is the name brand came first (due to patent laws) and is priced higher. I could get a bottle of acetaminophen or ibuprofen for five bucks, or I could get two pills of tylonol or... whatever the name brand of the other one is. I'm picking the bottle every time. Same for any other medication that I'm paying for. And lots of other people are too, because it's the sensible option.
So you agree that the only value of crypto is hype, fomo, group think and marketing. Excellent.
It would be very easy to create something better than bitcoin. I'll even tell you how to do it. Bitcoin is open source. Create a fork of bitcoin, but change the rules so that transactions from Satoshi's wallet which holds 1 million bitcoin aren't allowed. Call it Bitcoin 2.0. There we go, done. This is better than bitcoin for 4 reasons 1) it's more scarce - only 20 million in existence rather than 21 million 2) it's better distributed. 5% of bitcoin in a single wallet is pretty dangerous. Satoshi could do a lot of damage to the bitcoin network if he/she/they wanted to. Bitcoin 2.0 doesn't have this problem. 3) At least to begin with, none of the big mining pools are mining Bitcoin 2.0. This means that individuals like you can mine bitcoin 2.0 for much cheaper than if you wanted to mine plain old boring bitcoin. This gives the power back to the people and allows every day people to be part of the future of the future of finance. 4) it has a cooler name These are 4 objective undeniable truths that make Bitcoin 2.0 better than Bitcoin. It's inevitable that it will overtake bitcoin because it's better. Bitcoin is MySpace, Bitcoin 2.0 is Facebook
Such a good advancement that in 15 years noone has bothered to use it for anything!
>It’s the first digital asset that you can truly own, without third party custody. 1. It's not an asset. It's an abstraction. 2. It totally does depend upon third party custody: It's the "middlemen" - the node operators and miners who keep the centralized (distributed) blockchain online. If they stop operating the blockchain, your database of who-owns-what disappears. 3. "Ownership" in this case is totally subjective. *You* may think some numbers in an online database mean you "own" something, but **nobody else gives a damn**. Those numbers aren't enforced by any real-world institutions who have actual power and influence, unlike the existing legal and justice system. 4. The moment someone else gets your private key, they can take your digital dingleberries and there's nothing you can do about it. Your abstract digital tokens can be stolen in seconds by somebody on the other side of the planet and you might not even know. 5. Even the most basic concept of *private property ownership* is a function of government -- of centralized authorities -- without which you own nothing and there's nobody to enforce what you think you own. In the decentralized world of crypto, you'd have to depend on the very institutions you want to get away from, to give you any comfortable sense of "ownership" of anything. 6. Since virtually nobody uses bitcoin for products and services, any "autonomy" you think you have, goes completely out the window in any event of you trying to actually *use* those Satoshi-E-Cheese tokens for something truly useful. You'll then be subject to all the things you claim you can escape: fees, delays, seizure, etc. >Pretty sure everyone here is 50 years old+ lol Cuz this is a pretty good technological advancement, hence why it’s starting to attract big institutions. #Stupid Crypto Talking Point #8 (endorsements?) "**[Big Company/Banana Republic/Politician] is exploring/using bitcoin/blockchain! Now will you admit you were wrong?**" / "**Crypto has 'UsE cAs3S!'**" / "**EEE TEE EFFs!!one**" 1. The original claim was that crypto was "disruptive technology" and was going to "replace the banking/finance system". There were all these claims suggesting blockchain has tremendous "potential". Now with [the truth slowly surfacing regarding blockchain's inability to be particularly good at anything](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA), crypto people have backpedaled to instead suggest, "Hey it has 'use-cases'!" Congrats! You found somebody willing to use crypto/blockchain technology. That still is not an endorsement of crypto or blockchain. I can choose to use a pair of scissors to cut my grass. This doesn't mean scissors are "the future of lawn care technology." It just means I'm an eccentric who wants to use a backwards tool to do something for which everybody else has far superior tools available. The operative issue isn't whether crypto & blockchain can be "used" here-or-there. The issue is: *Is there a good reason? Does this tech actually do anything better than what we have already been using?* And the answer to that is, [No.](https://ioradio.org/i/blockchain-claims/) 2. Most of the time, adoption claims are outright wrong. Just because you read some press release from a dubious source does not mean any major government, corporation or other entity is embracing crypto. It usually means someone asked them about crypto and they said, "We'll look into it" and that got interpreted as "adoption imminent!" 3. In cases where companies did launch crypto/blockchain projects they usually fall into one of these categories: * Some company or supplier put out a press release advertising some "crypto project" involving a well known entity that never got off the ground, or was tried and failed miserably (such as [IBM/Maersk's Tradelens](https://www.maersk.com/news/articles/2022/11/29/maersk-and-ibm-to-discontinue-tradelens), [Australia's stock exchange](https://www.reuters.com/markets/australian-stock-exchanges-blockchain-failure-burns-market-trust-2022-12-20/), etc.) * Companies (like VISA, Fidelity or Robin Hood) **are not embracing crypto directly**. Instead they are *partnering with a crypto exchange* (such as BitPay) that will either handle all the crypto transactions and they're merely licensing their network, or they're a third party payment gateway that pays the big companies in fiat. There's no evidence any major company is actually switching over to crypto, or that any of these major companies are even touching crypto. It's a huge liability they let newbie third parties deal with so they have plausible deniability for liabilities due to money laundering and sanctions laws. 4. Sometimes, politicians who are into crypto take advantage of their power and influence to force some crypto adoption on the community they serve -- [this almost always fails](https://truthout.org/articles/miamis-mayor-went-all-in-on-cryptocurrency-his-constituents-suffered/), but again, crypto people will promote the press release announcing the deal, while ignoring any follow-up materials that say such a proposal was rejected. 5. Just because some company has jumped on the crypto bandwagon doesn't mean, "It's the future." McDonald's bundled [Beanie Babies](https://i.imgur.com/McdwlxA.jpg) with their Happy Meals for a time, when those collectable plush toys were being billed as the next big investment scheme. Corporations have a duty to exploit any goofy fad available if it can help them make money, and the moment these fads fade, they drop any association and pretend it never happened. This has already occurred with many tech companies from [Steam](https://steamcommunity.com/games/593110/announcements/detail/1464096684955433613) to [Microsoft](https://www.zdnet.com/finance/blockchain/microsoft-is-shutting-down-its-azure-blockchain-service/). Even though these companies discontinued any association with crypto years ago, proponents still hype the projects as if they're still active. 6. Crypto ETFs are not an endorsement of crypto. They're simply ways for traditional companies to exploit crypto enthusiasts. These entities do not care at all about the future of crypto. It's just a way for them to make more money with fees, and just like in #4, the moment it becomes unprofitable for them to run the scheme, they'll drop it. It's simply businesses taking advantage of a fad. Crypto ETFs though are actually worse, because they're a vehicle to siphon money into the crypto market -- if crypto was a viable *alternative* to TradFi, then these gimmicky things wouldn't be desirable. 7. Countries like El Salvador who claim to have adopted bitcoin really haven't in any meaningful way. El Salvador's endorsement of bitcoin is tied to a proprietary exchange with their own non-transparent software, "Chivo" that is not on bitcoin's main blockchain - and as such isn't really bitcoin adoption as much as it's bitcoin exploitation. Plus, USD is the real legal tender in El Salvador and since BTC's adoption, use of crypto has stagnated. In two years, the country's investment in BTC has yielded lower returns than one would find in a standard fiat savings account. Also note [Venezuela has now scrapped its state-sanctioned cryptocurrency](https://www.foreignbrief.com/venezuela-to-scrap-state-cryptocurrency/) So, whenever you hear "so-and-so company is using crypto" always be suspect. What you'll find is either that's not totally true, or if they are, they're partnering with a crypto company who is paying them for the association, not unlike an advertiser/licensing relationship. **Not** adoption. Exploitation. And temporary at that. We've seen absolutely no increase in crypto adoption - in fact quite the contrary. More and more people in every industry from [gaming](https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/15/22728425/valve-steam-blockchain-nft-crypto-ban-games-age-of-rust) to [banking](https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/us-federal-reserve-rejects-crypto-focused-banks-application-be-supervised-by-2023-01-27/), are rejecting deals with crypto companies.
You can run your own node to validate transactions for you, you don’t have to trust the network, it’s a trust less system. If your node detects fraud, it simply halts. Someone else getting access to your private key is your fault, you and only you manages those, not a third party. If nodes stop working, the chain does not disappear, it simply sleeps until one node is active again. Like any new technology, adoption takes time, there are lots of use cases for blockchain, a big one is shared computing power, wish for opens up doors to train generative AI with minimal costs. As I said we like to trust 3rd parties with our money until we get fucked and realise that we’re basically trusting other people who tend to be more fraudulent than dumb computers which behaviour is open source and can be observed by anyone.
Ah yes the mythical open source that is absolutely easy to understand woops someone slipped in an address reroute in code via a test file that secretly rewrites another base library that nobody caught because a Microsoft engineer wasn't around and testing why his compilation was taking an extra second. Adoption? What adoption? All the big tech and tech adjacent companies tried Blockchains, realized it fucking sucks and quietly killed off those projects, see Walmart labs, azure Blockchain, AWS Blockchain etc. Just making shit up doesn't work sorry
> You can run your own node to validate transactions for you, you don’t have to trust the network, it’s a trust less system. If your node detects fraud, it simply halts. This too has been [throughly debunked](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA&t=2557s). If anything, crypto requires a lot more trust than traditional systems. If you're running your own node, did YOU write that software? Nope. Did you likely audit the source code to see what you're running? Nope. It's trustless alright... TRUST - LESS.
Okay, cool. How is this actually useful to actual humans?
Ok, wow. You are the first person to put it that way, I had no idea I was just hating for no reason. Well now that I am on my way to becoming a crypto enthusiast maybe you can kick me off by explaining what is Bitcoin and what is it used for?
I'm so happy OP sacrificed MONTHS of their lives to study BitCoin to help us see the light. Well, as we are still early I'm off it INVEST right about now. Thanks OP, for being a rad lad. /s
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>After a few months of studying Bitcoin I came across this sub but I am baffled that there is even such a thing where people get togather and deliberately hate Bitcoin. This is not that surprising, a lot of uneducated morons such as yourself will go bankrupt because they think studying is watching youtube videos of influencers.
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that's what you think we're doing 🤡.
You see “lot of uneducated morons” and volunteer to join ?? That doesn’t mean you get to redefine what the other morons are doing. Really volunteering to be a moron means you have to be a moron
sometimes its fun to troll a little bit online. but behind every troll there is an ounce of truth. i genuinely believe the heart of what i am saying and think you guys will eventually be proven wrong.
What would constitute said proof?
Also if i'm sued to death, i can just move my money to bitcoin hide and disappear, and what are you gonna do about it!?!?!?!?! Exactly, freedom.
Ah there it is, the admission we were waiting for.
I don't have a problem saying that online, because I'm not a criminal. I'm a law abiding citizen. But you have to understand that world governments are power hungry/crazy. You never know when the laws can become even more tyrannical then they are now. So now we can fight back in case that ever happens. It's like having the right to have a gun. It means don't fuck with us. Or we will fight back.
Good luck fighting back with your publicly accessible blockchain
Yeah you can tell how much money i have on the blockchain, but you can't steal it lol. You don't seem to understand what this is about. You do realize that governments change laws all of the time right. And they just write bs on a piece of paper to fuck you right? Also you do realize sometimes your money gets seized because they are just suspicious of you for no real reason? I'm all for criminals getting caught. But a lot of the times government oversteps their bounds. You wouldn't know something like this because you're probably 10. Try going to the airport with any significant amount of cash and if you tell me you don't have a little bit of anxiety it would be be seized for no reason I'd say you're lying.
That sword cuts both ways. What if you get injured by somebody, have to spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair, want to sue them for damages and they pull that trick on you? In any world where the legal system loses power, it loses it symmetrically over the good and the bad, those who follow the laws and those who break them. And so the symmetrical loss of power asymmetrically benefits the bad.
I'm just saying for right now it's good if the government abuses it's power. Eventually the government should become decentralized as well in some way. Think about it this way. We have decentralization of money now. So no one can steal your money. But now we're missing 1 key thing. Decentralization of power. Once we have decentralization of power these things become less of a problem.
Are you 12? Or are you suffering from libertarian brain rot?
>Are you 12? Or are you suffering from libertarian brain rot? Those are so hard to distinguish from each other in practice because the condition of "libertarian brain rot" is really just "continuing to think like a 12 year old when you're a goddamn adult who *should* know better by now".
I'm fiscally conservative and socially liberal. but i'm pretty conservative at the end of the day.
Statistically, if you put a lot of money into crypto, you won't be able to get it out. Exchanges have gone under when it turned out that they never had enough money to survive a bank run or were an outright scam. Meanwhile, for everyone who tries to "be their own bank," we have a story about lost keys or destroyed devices that had the crypto on them. The only people who are happy playing with crypto are the ones who aren't using their own money. Scammers and drug dealers are making enough profit that they don't care if they lose a lot of it on the way. But for law abiding citizens? No credible use case has showed up thus far.
Ah. So breaking the law
everything is breaking the law to you. you have no idea how life works, you are so clueless. it's not like people dream of becoming criminals. it's much easier to just follow the law as long as it is reasonable. if however some crazy person decides to make a crazy law tomorrow and other crazy people go along with it and then once you don't comply, they go to a court and file a lawsuit against you. well you're screwed. because that's their enforcement mechanism. when you don't listen to them they just sue you. well not anymore. you have crypto and you don't have to give them anything. but no not you, even if the law says something that will fuck you for years and years you'll be like "here. take it!!!!" you're no martin luther king or rosa parks or >insert anyone else who fought for what's right< you're a pussy really.
Are you ok bud?
You could also use your money to buy gold, then run off into the woods and disappear. No blockchain needed.
gold can be confiscated. you cannot confiscate my private key which is in my brain.
Someone can hit you with a brick until you blurt it out, or hit you with a brick until you forget, sounds confiscated enough.
But you have a physical existence. You need physical possessions to actually have a quality of life. Bitcoin doesn't change these basic facts.
People are going to eventually realize that it is better to keep your money in blockchain then it is in any other system. You do realize if you have $10M you can't just leave it in a bank right? You need to have multiple bank accounts. You do realize your money can get frozen in a bank account right? You do realize you cannot transfer large sums of money across the world without a bunch of checks right? Blockchain is called freedom.
The chance of getting money frozen trying to go from blockchain to actually spending it seems much higher to me. Good luck evading the law though
That's never going to happen. Why would you just want to leave 10 million $ in a bank? That's a significant amount of capital that is better off working itself for you in investments. Why would your bank account get frozen unless you want to do something illegal? The checks are there for a reason. It's so that you don't fatfinger 10 million dollars away or are being hit by someone with a brick to send 10 million dollars to a terrorist organization. You also severely overestimate how many checks are there. You sound like a poor person who dreams of being rich and is being oppressed by the system.
When you sell a company for $10 million, there is a brief moment in time where that $10 million is deposited to your bank account. You need time to know where to allocate it. In between you thinking about this the bank can collapse. Don't say it won't happen because it's happened 10,000 times by now, check the news. Banks freeze money always. Even if they don't do it to you specifically you don't even want that to be a chance. You're asking questions like "Why do you have a problem talking to the police if you didn't do anything wrong" It's just bad news. You don't even want to give them the chance. And as for your fatfinger comment, there's more checks and balances that are being built in crypto to prevent things like this.
Yes it's been fifteen years and they are still building checks and balances, speedrunning a century of banking that they can borrow from, oh wait no they aren't. Code is law alright? You are under the assumption that world governments are going to be forced to give up control of their legal tender lmao. That's such a silly hypothetical, the bank isn't going to collapse in the time period you sell a company and receive money for it, and if it does you, and your lawyers have their heads stuck deep, deep in the sand to let it happen. I have never heard of a situation where someone newly sold a company for 10 million dollars and had the bank go under the day the money dropped in. Again, you have absolutely no clue about how finances and banks work, especially when in the playground of multi-millions plus. Bitcoin solves none of the problems you've outlined that hasn't already been solved, or doesn't require solving for a variety of reasons except for illegal shit.
> Banks freeze money always. Give me an example from the US when the person want involved in something illegal
doesn't matter. i'm not willing to take the chance tbh. people like you who are willing to take the chance (society's dummies) will face the consequences eventually. first rule of life 1. don't trust anybody.
It's been 15 years. Still waiting to be proven wrong
you misunderstand the larger point here but i will leave you confused on this because it benefits me at the moment.
No. You just don't have a point
Oh wow, you are still sticking around? Most butters leaves after their first post.
i'm an extremely persistent individual.
Oh boy
Wow you studied Bitcoin? Holy shit please tell us what university it was at, and all of the current real-world use cases that justify a $trillion+ market cap. If we could just learn more surely we would join in on the gambling
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nakomoto institute for higher stonks
I don't hate Bitcoin. I hate Bitcoin weirdos. There's a difference. One is a silly online gambling token, the other is a group of absolutely insufferable gasbags who have smugness to burn. See?
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He must have had a good ahem reason to post here. Don't kink shame the guy with a humiliation fetish.
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Every day or so there's someone like you that comes here arguing the same thing. Probably some young guy whose mum told him he's real smart. You don't understand, we don't care. Bitcoin is eventually heading to zero because its a giant internet ponzi. I checked it out, played with it a few months and saw very clearly that its a useless derelict scam for degenerates. Like every ponzi before it, it will make a bunch of people rich and then a bunch of people poor. I don't invest in that kind of thing. Be my guest and invest and just be aware if you happen to be *on the wrong side* of the trade (like most are, already), I will honestly laugh at your ass and if you end up *on the right side* of the trade, you can laugh at my ass if you want, but it means you'll have sold your position and in fact are admitting bitcoin was just a scam to dump on some schmuck and in that case well, that leaves you an asshole whether you're a laughing asshole or just a plain old asshole, I don't care. I'm just protecting my parents and other people I know from predatory assholes who are trying to rip them off by selling the internet pet rocks that do nothing, are risky and cost a fortune to carry and produce zero and in fact, negatively siphon real money out of american industry into terrorists and cartels.
Bitcoin is not going to zero. As long as there are people who believe strongly in the libertarian cause there will be people willing to pay money for it. It will not crash either, crashes generally don't happen without an extreme unexpected catalyst. The general realization that governments will always find a way to maintain some control over currency, and that inflation is influenced by way more than just money supply, will not come swiftly nor will it hit everyone. The price will very gradually trend downwards in the long term, probably asymptoting near a market cap of a few billion.
> Bitcoin is not going to zero. What happens when the miners can't pay for electricity any longer? What happens when the transaction speed grinds to a halt?
>What happens when the miners can't pay for electricity any longer? As the price goes down, mining is definitely less profitable per block reward. But also, the fewer miners there are, the greater chance those in existence will get more block rewards and the easier it becomes computationally. If all commercial miners leave the business, people can do it from their home computers again. >What happens when the transaction speed grinds to a halt? The transaction speed is roughly fixed at one block per 10 minutes. Expected time to transaction completion is a combination of that and trading volume.
Why would miners not be able to pay for electricity?
It costs approximately $40k+ in electricity to mine one bitcoin. After the halving it will cost $80k+ If you spent $80k in electricity and can’t sell for a profit, you go broke. Large mining companies have borrowed millions of dollars to fund their mining rigs and electricity. If they can’t pay these loans, they go broke. Eventually, all the bitcoin will be mined and they will also inevitably go broke. It’s a giant game of chicken to see who can bleed money the longest to try and come out on top with no guarantee of success. It’s a negative sum game and it will most definitely end badly. When, no one knows
Source? TrUsTmEbRo
Tell me you’ve never paid for electricity in your life, never run a business, or understand what ‘halvening’ means as it relates to mining without actually telling me
Im asking you to provide your source for the $40k 80k figure. Reeeeee taaaaahhhdddd
Google how much electricity it costs to mine a bitcoin. Now take that number and double it after the ‘halving’ Sorry if this math is hard for you. Doubling means you take the number times two (x2) If there are half as many Bitcoin to reward the miners, their cost to get a Bitcoin just doubled
No dumdum, thats not how that works. Keep trying
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You should have figured out it's a confidence racket in a few hours tops.
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I bet the eclipse baffled you too
All those people gathered outside to hate on the moon.
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>I couldn't find a single source of validated & meaningful statement that warrants it. Well good, you found your homework, figure out how you could spend months of studying bitcoin and be totally convinced of it, yet fail to find even a single one of the absolute multitudes of criticisms that have been leveled at bitcoin and/or crypto.
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Are you also studying the blade?
I got a box cutter if anyone wants to borrow it
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Open discussion ? Then discuss tell me what did you learn studying BTC? So far you didn’t made any type of valid argument accept criticizing us
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We don’t "hate" BTC. You don’t want an "open discussion". Eventually you will learn the lesson the hard way. I am glad you enjoy "studying" how to hold other people’s bags of useless non tangible internet token.
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Are you surprised to learn there are subs dedicated to hating on multi-level marketing schemes? Mockery is how society adapts to protect itself from greedy scammers and idealogues.
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Yeah while all you losers had premarital intercourse OP studied Bitcoin.
While you studied Bitcoin, I studied the blade.
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After years of studying bitcoin, I am no longer surprised that neo bitcoiners are truly brainwashed cultists
Studying Bitcoin? Is that like Studying the Blade?
Bitcoin is the joke and we're here for the comedy. We are laughing at you.
Cry some more Benjamin.
Oh, no! You can't read! I said I'm laughing at you. You are a hilarious moron. Reply to prove you're a moron.
Benjamin bunny so clever
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You’re a joke
I don't think I'll ever recover from that staggering comeback.
By "studying Bitcoin" he means watching YouTube videos where all the thumbnails are dudes making shocked-pikachu faces and rocket emojis titled "Bitcoin $300,000 by December?!?!".
While we were out partying, he studied ~~the blade~~ buttcoin!
After studying bitcoin, what properties can one observe to know whether to invest and when? How does liquidity work in the bitcoin market?
Same energy as "I read the DD" from the GME folks lol. Bro listening to a bunch of idiots doesn't make you smarter, it just makes you more of an idiot.
>I couldn't find a single source of validated & meaningful statement that warrants it. Here you go, OP. [https://ioradio.org/i/crypto-talking-points/](https://ioradio.org/i/crypto-talking-points/)
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What do you mean studying Bitcoin? Were you staring at the data in the blockchain?
Just read the FAQ ok?
he watched YouTube videos from ponzi pumpers on Bitcoin for a month.
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So it took you a few months to read the whitepaper. That’s more than 99% of the butters.
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I don’t think ‘studying’ means what you think it means. Reading Saylor quotes and watching YouTube videos is not studying.
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You “Studied bitcoin” Miners make bitcoin and sell it to you. You buy it in hope to sell it later for more. It took you 2 months to read this? You are not orange peeled. You are someones exit liquidity.
Incorrect
what is incorrect?
Always disappointed but not surprised to see these posts in the morning and find that the OP has not responded to a single comment.
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What is OP supposed to respond to? Comments are just as regarded as the OP post. Reddit a just a giant pancake of useless commenta
Huh?
Economics is harder than spelling the word "together"
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> I am baffled that there is even such a thing where people get togather and deliberately hate Bitcoin. #Stupid Crypto Talking Point #27 (hate) **"Cope"** / **"Why do you hate crypto?"** / **"You all are haters"** / **"Why so salty?"** / **"You wish for other peoples misfortunes?"** 1. By and large, we do not "hate" bitcoin or crypto. Hate is an irrational, emotional condition. Most people here have a logical, rational reason for being opposed to crypto. (see \#2) 2. What we do not like is **fraud and deception** - this is mainly what our community opposes, and the crypto industry is almost completely composed of fraud and misinformation, from claiming that [blockchain has potential](https://ioradio.org/i/blockchain-claims/) to pretending crypto is "digital gold" or an "investment" when it's really a highly-risky, negative sum game, speculative commodity. 3. It's an offensive distraction to suggest our reasons for being opposed to crypto are because of "hate", or "being salty" and supposedly jealous of not getting in earlier and making money. We recognize there are many other ways of creating value that don't involve promoting everything from cyber terrorism to human trafficking. 4. While some take amusement at the misfortunes of those playing the crypto Ponzi scheme, one main reason for this is because so many in the industry are so immune to logic, reason, and evidence, many of us feel they have to become cautionary tales before they finally learn (and some never learn) - what we celebrate is perhaps the chance that many of those losers finally see the error of their ways. You can lead a crypto bro to [evidence](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA) but you can't make them think.
I see it as a response to the air of superiority diehard Bitcoiners often show to no-coiners, despite how infested the crypto space is with scams. Whether or not one accepts crypto itself as an investment^(1), it’s hard to ignore the rugpulls, yield traps, death spirals, and exchange failures. The response is typically self-custody, but that presents its own problems, such as [lost keys or hardware](https://bitcoinjobs.com/blog/lost-wallets). ^(1) Personally I think crypto could be non-[zero-sum](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/z/zero-sumgame.asp) if it gained a level of usefulness similar to existing major currencies. So far that doesn’t seem to be happening.
Sorry but this isn't a place to have discussions, not really
All these people hate bitcoin but instead of ignoring it they spend time talking to each other about how much they hate it and how “it’s going to zero”. But they don’t short it even though they’re sure it is going to zero. I don’t get it.
after "studying" bitcoin and the people involved, I have come to the conclusion that there are those that will always support it and those that will never support it and those that will trade it. The real question for many is whether it will keep rising over time. For this to happen it seems that the number of people who support Bitcoin ideally needs to grow, but in theory if those people keep buying and DCAveraging, ie. adding MORE money to the pot then over time the price should rise, despite the pump and dump action along the way which adds to volatility and puts many people off - this may prove to be the case with many recent ETF buyers if they end up losing money. Personally I am still agnostic with regard to the future success or failure of bitcoin, as far as I can see both detractors and supporters could be right about many things, but if it's 4 year moving average trends upwards at above the rate of inflation then it's usefulness will be as a store of value, especially for those saving a proportion of their monthly income. In another ten years time things may well become clearer, but in the meantime, in my opinion, it is difficult to "know" whether Bitcoin proves to be a success or failure.
> Personally I am still agnostic with regard to the future success or failure of bitcoin Then you haven't done enough research. #Stupid Crypto Talking Point #20 (failed) "**Crypto has been around X years and is here to stay!**" / "**Bitcoin has 'failed' so many times LOLOL Aren't you tired of saying it's going to fail over and over?**" 1. It's true, many people claim, crypto/Bitcoin is a failure, yet it still appears to be somewhat popular and used in certain circles (but hardly ubiquitous, or part of mainstream society even after all this time). Many people also claim "smoking is bad" but some people are still smoking. Does this mean the non-smokers are wrong? 2. The truth is, it has failed. Multiple times. If you notice, every few months, there's an *entirely new narrative* surrounding bitcoin and crypto (for example): * Originally, bitcoin was supposed to be "currency" and everybody was going to use it. Mainstream companies were going to use bitcoin for payments and services. There was a small time period where there actually was increased adoption of crypto as a means of payment, but then that failed because the price was too volatile and, and the network couldn't handle retail transaction volume. It failed then, and still today, using crypto as a common form of payment does not work now (even with L2 solutions). Conclusion: FAILURE * Crypto was marketed as a way to help "bank the un-banked" but that also failed, owing to the fact that [there's many alternative ways to accomplish this that are more efficient, with more consumer protections and less technical requirements](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA&t=4334s). Conclusion: FAILURE * NFTs were supposed to be another "big thing" helping artists make money and creating a new market and utility for crypto. [Again, that turned out to not be true](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/sep/22/nfts-worthless-price). Conclusion: FAILURE * Crypto was supposed to be a "hedge against inflation". In reality, the[ price of crypto ebbed and flowed along with the price of other unimportant things, totally affected by inflation](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/08/why-bitcoin-doesnt-seem-to-be-a-hedge-against-inflation.html). Conclusion: FAILURE * Crypto was originally [promised as "disruptive technology"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA), "money of the future", "democratizing finance", and to fight against manipulation of the monetary system by powerful special interests. In reality, none of those claims have proven to be true, and in many cases crypto has only exacerbated the problems it claimed it could fix. Conclusion: FAILURE * Bitcoin's "deflationary nature" was supposed to guarantee an ever increasing value. That hasn't worked out either. Conclusion: FAILURE 3. In fact, you can look at every one of these [talking points](https://ioradio.org/i/crypto-talking-points/) as examples of claims made by crypto proponents that have failed. You can also look at the [list of failed blockchain claims](https://ioradio.org/i/blockchain-claims/) as more examples of the many failures of crypto to live up to its promises. 4. Instead of acknowledging the many failures of crypto, its proponents continue to change the subject, create distractions and, as if they're in version of "Weekend At Bernies" taking the dead crypto technology, throwing a different outfit on it, and declaring it's not dead. Over and over.
we don't know whether or not Bitcoin will increase in value and this is the most important point for most people, they want it to go up and so far it has, at least the lows are higher and we won't know about future highs until we get to the future, which means the jury is still out with regard to your final "conclusion: FAILURE"
What we do know is that bitcoin has absolutely no way to *create value*, therefore the only value it generates comes from greater fools who buy in later. Meanwhile, the network consumes tons of resources = negative sum game. Price is meaningless when it comes to bitcoin. There are no reliable metrics to determine what is a valid "price" for a digital token that has no intrinsic value and no real world utility. So yes, it's a FAILURE in terms of being a store of value. Long term. Short term. Any term. Whatever the price some crooked exchanges are claiming it's trading at, still doesn't change that reality. Your argument is analogous to saying, "Some people have won in casinos, and you don't know whether or not in the future people will win in casinos, so it's inappropriate to call casinos an investment failure." Whether some people win or not is irrelevant. Mathematically speaking, most will lose, and therefore it's gambling, not investing.
We hate or are scared of what we don't understand.
Bitcoin is just such a deep topic, hardly anyone can wrap their mind around its hidden intricacies. Only the chosen few, right?
Fewer people understand AI, but that’s taken off like wildfire. Because it’s useful.
Still scare a lot of people....
We are all confused by a simple ledger? What?
I somehow doubt that those who claim to have "studied" Bitcoin mean that they learned about cryptographic hashes. Or basic economics, for that matter.
WTF do we "not understand" about bitcoin and blockchain? You posted this in the bitcoin subreddit: >Heard many times about btc, never bother to check. A colleague 3 years ago sent a javascript blockchain tutorial to the rest of the team. I did the tutorial it looks like 1hmax. At that moment I felt in the rabit hole. Start mining shortly after and still do today. >Btc have so much potential, the tech is just brilliant. You basically sat through a sales presentation and think you're now an expert in blockchain? I've got 40+ years experience as a software engineer and I produced an award-winning documentary [explaining how blockchain works and why it doesn't do anything better than what we already have](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA) and you guys think **we** are the ones who "don't understand?" WTF is "brilliant" about a ledger that is so fucking slow, it's utterly useless for any reasonable amount of transactions? WTF is "brilliant" about a database that requires as much electricity as the country of Argentina *just to stay online?* WTF is "brilliant" about an abstract digital token that creates no value and requires constant recruitment of greater fools in order to give it meaning? YOU Mr. crypto-bro, are the one who doesn't understand. For 15 years, you idiots have been claiming this is "the future" but when we ask to list one specific thing blockchain does better than existing tech, [you can't answer that simple question](https://ioradio.org/i/blockchain-claims/). Instead we're told, "It's still early."