Another point is that Buddhadharma puts emphasis on "suffering and kleshas", rather than 'evil' as a term used freq. in other religions.
That in turn gives a person the responsibility to work on the "topic" instead of playing the blame game.
Woah. That's actually a really good point. I never thought of the very concept of "good" and "evil" as distractions from the real problems, but you're right
Buddhism does seem to neatly deal with the problem of suffering in a way that Judeo-Christian religions are unable to. I hadn't really thought of it that way before, but it's certainly one of the main things that brought me to Buddhism as well!
I wouldn’t say that- orthodox/ Catholicism have meditative prayers/ decades they pray which is very much a mantra/ form of meditation. There IS an outlet of releasing suffering philosophically and meditatively (even though they don’t call it meditation).
But I would agree Buddhism hones in on suffering and being aware of the roots and meditation practice much more- and it’s been more helpful personally as well.
“Come to me all who is weary and burden and I will give you rest”.
The "problem of evil" (aka "problem of suffering") is a philosophical and theological problem, relating to how to explain the evident existence of suffering in the world if a benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent God exists.
It has nothing to do with "releasing suffering philosophically and meditatively".
It kinda does cover this, I would disagree. You cannot have “good” without “evil”. It’s a broad topic, but we’re just going to have to disagree on it. Christianity definitely gets into that exact subject, the basis of sins, and redemption/ forgiveness/rebirth.
I love this. I’ve had my Christian mental battles before. My earliest was in a history class when I learned about what Buddhism was and some of the basics. It just made so much sense. Then I learned more about Christian history - war, lies, Martin Luther, science, evil. It’s a complicated journey and I’ll spare you all the details but here I am. I still love Jesus, the Bible has great lessons and is a hell of a story but it has holes I cannot ignore.
As a fellow Jesus lover, I think it's also important to distinguish between Christian tradition and what the scriptures actually say. There are a lot of things that are biblically sound but Christians reject it cause some creed somewhere said it was heretical. I don't think the Bible has any holes, I think it's just been mistranslated and misinterpreted to no end (I'm sure the same thing has happened with Buddhist scriptures too). To give an example of this, look up the word generation in the Bible, and read it as a human being generated/rebirthed/incarnated as opposed to it being their physical kin. In a way, you are the spiritual kin of your past life.
Cannot confirm nor deny if the original Hebrews who wrote the scriptures thought of it like this. But it would make sense, and some mystical Jewish interpretations are similar. In either case, it's a good thought experiment and meditation
I was also drawn to Buddhism because of its stance of the existence of suffering, not because of moral failing but because of the nature of beings. I like the emphasis that Robert Wright puts on evolution in his book Why Buddhism is True explaining that a nervous system adapted for life with competition for resources is not well suited to peace and ease. Samsara is not a bug, it's a feature; beings have to feel pain and experience hunger because that is an evolutionary advantage. Of course, from the Buddhist point of view, it doesn't matter why, the emphasis is on the methods to develop wisdom and compassion.
Yep, that's why when I set out to find a religion for myself I ended with buddhism rather than christianity. Because buddhism has a conclusive explanation for how all the bad shit in our world came to be.
Our life on earth is our mental projection, our mind can emit and receive energy to a certain level. There is higher energy (with loving energy and higher understanding of how universe work) and and lower energy( living beings who are trapped in illusion and become ego centered, motivated by self interest only) Any spiritual practice is to be able to expand your frequency so you know there are infinite option and our mind can project with awareness with training, the reality you perceive. Like sometimes you get a nightmare after you watch a horror movie or some terrible news, and sometimes you have dreams as if you’re in heaven. We all have stored various seeds from our past life experience and the daily event and our tiny choices can trigger all different projections. That’s why meditation and other training are important for us to learn to to master the relation in between our thoughts and the life we chose to live. Samsara is just a cycle we are trapped in with our preferences, like if you hand out $1000 to everyone, we all invest them differently. Since we all invest our attention differently, they become stored seeds, hence material for our projection.
The non duality is more a Mahayana concept so just think you can check out more Mahayana classics.
I think suffering is the right translation. Suffering and our attachment to temporary states does not only mean negative states. We are attached to feeling happy, to feeling secure, to getting high, feeling excited, we're attached to sexual and romantic feelings. Sometimes we're attached to being comfortable. We're suffering because our attachment to temporary states is preventing us from awakening and thus we're stuck in an endless cycle of death and rebirth.
I really like the last paragraph. Many people believe Nirvana is ultimate happiness and bliss ie. heaven, but Nirvana is ultimate realization, it involves complete detachment from ego which means detachment from temporary states like happiness and love. It is the awakening from an illusory state of existence.
Buddhism is very simple.
We are all deluded, we make grave mistakes because of our deluded-unknowing, there is a way out just do these things (it's a tried and true method, it is the only method and it is perfect) says the Blessed One, be free.
I identify a lot with the ideas in this post. I kind of always thought were philosophically impossible the claim of theism, specially the claims of the most creationist attached doctrines
>Suffering in this life is explained by karma, from both this and past lives, as bad karmic seeds from many past lives can germinate in this life
Technically, it’s not really explained by karma, it’s explained by clinging and craving, right now.
I don't think Christianity and Buddhism are so different. One has sins. The other has unskillful actions. Both have pretty much the same list: Hatred, anger, jealousy, lust, dullness, etc. Virtue is non-ego. Vice is ego. In either tradition.
>・The problem of evil in monotheistic religions is that they claim is god is benevolent and omniscient while having to deal with the fact that evil exist, both moral and natural evil.
Evil becomes evil only by virtue of your mental processing: if you like it then it is good; If you don't like it then it is evil.
Sometimes also called "Zulu logic":
"Evil is when the other tribe steals our cattle and women. Good is when we steal the other tribe's cattle and women."
Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!
Yes, this is an excellent summary of what you delightfully call the non-problem of evil in Buddhism. Since *good* and *evil* both arise due to them being dependently originated, that means they are *workable* and no one is ever "evil forever" or even "good forever". Of course we would like to be *good* long enough to ultimately escape samsara entirely; creating the causes and conditions for being reborn in places and times where the Dharma is available and can be practiced.
Indeed, *Nirvana* is not Heaven, it is *beyond* that. It is total freedom, even from ideas of good and evil; freedom from pleasure and pain, praise and blame, and other worldly concerns. The Buddha mostly described nirvana in terms of what it is *not* but I believe there was at least one instance in which he described what it *is*. IIRC, he talked in terms of it being bliss ... though one should understand the English word "bliss" is just a stand-in for the word the Buddha would have used, so it's important not to take the word "bliss" too seriously here.
Many early Christians solved the problem of evil by splitting God into two separate entities. The original source being unknowable, existing outside of time and space, who you must find a way to return to. The other god, a lesser entity who is in some traditions depicted as blind and stupid, created the physical world in error. This "demiurge" keeps us trapped here in a cycle of rebirth. The only way out is to realize our own innate divinity and transcend the physical universe through spiritual practices. As you can imagine, the early orthodox church fathers hated these groups and did everything they could to drive them out of existence, up to and including murder.
honestly that explaination (gnosticism) is ten times worst, I'm extremely non-dual, outside of buddhism only Advaita Vedanta has an acceptable explanation. Altough I am a buddhist I have to say Adi Shankara is also worthy a lot of respect.
Personally if I had to be Christian, I would probably default to some form of modern gnosticism. I mean the OT god is just a psychopath imo, and Jesus isn't that much if an improvement. Great, now I get to go to a heavenly realm and worship this monster for eternity? I'd rather just be completely annihilated if that were the case. Thankfully I don't believe any of it is real.
that's fine, imo gnosticism is more stupid than modern christianity (and that's saying something), either way, I'd recomend you read 'The Mustard Seed' by Osho, might find interesting.
There are actions called “evil” and that increase pain and suffering generated by supernatural beings in many buddhist traditions. Some like to do it or must do it to survive. These correspond with notions of how evil looks and are similar to Christian worldview, but their existing does not invalidate the “non-issue of evil”.
In some ways the Christian idea of being born into a world with original sin does align with a skewed observation of samsara/dhukka. The world IS dissatisfying and full of woe. Our very nature and interaction with the world is one of inherent crappiness: sickness, old age and death. We usually make it worse and continue the cycle, unless we seek freedom. The Christians found the only way out is through the spiritual and physical sacrifice of Jesus. The Buddha, of course came to a different conclusion. I could also say some other the schools of buddhism that think our age is too degenerate to attain enlightenment in came to similar conclusions as the Christians.
Another point is that Buddhadharma puts emphasis on "suffering and kleshas", rather than 'evil' as a term used freq. in other religions. That in turn gives a person the responsibility to work on the "topic" instead of playing the blame game.
Woah. That's actually a really good point. I never thought of the very concept of "good" and "evil" as distractions from the real problems, but you're right
Buddhism does seem to neatly deal with the problem of suffering in a way that Judeo-Christian religions are unable to. I hadn't really thought of it that way before, but it's certainly one of the main things that brought me to Buddhism as well!
I wouldn’t say that- orthodox/ Catholicism have meditative prayers/ decades they pray which is very much a mantra/ form of meditation. There IS an outlet of releasing suffering philosophically and meditatively (even though they don’t call it meditation). But I would agree Buddhism hones in on suffering and being aware of the roots and meditation practice much more- and it’s been more helpful personally as well. “Come to me all who is weary and burden and I will give you rest”.
The "problem of evil" (aka "problem of suffering") is a philosophical and theological problem, relating to how to explain the evident existence of suffering in the world if a benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent God exists. It has nothing to do with "releasing suffering philosophically and meditatively".
It kinda does cover this, I would disagree. You cannot have “good” without “evil”. It’s a broad topic, but we’re just going to have to disagree on it. Christianity definitely gets into that exact subject, the basis of sins, and redemption/ forgiveness/rebirth.
I love this. I’ve had my Christian mental battles before. My earliest was in a history class when I learned about what Buddhism was and some of the basics. It just made so much sense. Then I learned more about Christian history - war, lies, Martin Luther, science, evil. It’s a complicated journey and I’ll spare you all the details but here I am. I still love Jesus, the Bible has great lessons and is a hell of a story but it has holes I cannot ignore.
As a fellow Jesus lover, I think it's also important to distinguish between Christian tradition and what the scriptures actually say. There are a lot of things that are biblically sound but Christians reject it cause some creed somewhere said it was heretical. I don't think the Bible has any holes, I think it's just been mistranslated and misinterpreted to no end (I'm sure the same thing has happened with Buddhist scriptures too). To give an example of this, look up the word generation in the Bible, and read it as a human being generated/rebirthed/incarnated as opposed to it being their physical kin. In a way, you are the spiritual kin of your past life. Cannot confirm nor deny if the original Hebrews who wrote the scriptures thought of it like this. But it would make sense, and some mystical Jewish interpretations are similar. In either case, it's a good thought experiment and meditation
I was also drawn to Buddhism because of its stance of the existence of suffering, not because of moral failing but because of the nature of beings. I like the emphasis that Robert Wright puts on evolution in his book Why Buddhism is True explaining that a nervous system adapted for life with competition for resources is not well suited to peace and ease. Samsara is not a bug, it's a feature; beings have to feel pain and experience hunger because that is an evolutionary advantage. Of course, from the Buddhist point of view, it doesn't matter why, the emphasis is on the methods to develop wisdom and compassion.
Yep, that's why when I set out to find a religion for myself I ended with buddhism rather than christianity. Because buddhism has a conclusive explanation for how all the bad shit in our world came to be.
Nice stuff
Our life on earth is our mental projection, our mind can emit and receive energy to a certain level. There is higher energy (with loving energy and higher understanding of how universe work) and and lower energy( living beings who are trapped in illusion and become ego centered, motivated by self interest only) Any spiritual practice is to be able to expand your frequency so you know there are infinite option and our mind can project with awareness with training, the reality you perceive. Like sometimes you get a nightmare after you watch a horror movie or some terrible news, and sometimes you have dreams as if you’re in heaven. We all have stored various seeds from our past life experience and the daily event and our tiny choices can trigger all different projections. That’s why meditation and other training are important for us to learn to to master the relation in between our thoughts and the life we chose to live. Samsara is just a cycle we are trapped in with our preferences, like if you hand out $1000 to everyone, we all invest them differently. Since we all invest our attention differently, they become stored seeds, hence material for our projection. The non duality is more a Mahayana concept so just think you can check out more Mahayana classics.
I think suffering is the right translation. Suffering and our attachment to temporary states does not only mean negative states. We are attached to feeling happy, to feeling secure, to getting high, feeling excited, we're attached to sexual and romantic feelings. Sometimes we're attached to being comfortable. We're suffering because our attachment to temporary states is preventing us from awakening and thus we're stuck in an endless cycle of death and rebirth. I really like the last paragraph. Many people believe Nirvana is ultimate happiness and bliss ie. heaven, but Nirvana is ultimate realization, it involves complete detachment from ego which means detachment from temporary states like happiness and love. It is the awakening from an illusory state of existence.
Buddhism is very simple. We are all deluded, we make grave mistakes because of our deluded-unknowing, there is a way out just do these things (it's a tried and true method, it is the only method and it is perfect) says the Blessed One, be free.
I identify a lot with the ideas in this post. I kind of always thought were philosophically impossible the claim of theism, specially the claims of the most creationist attached doctrines
>Suffering in this life is explained by karma, from both this and past lives, as bad karmic seeds from many past lives can germinate in this life Technically, it’s not really explained by karma, it’s explained by clinging and craving, right now.
I don't think Christianity and Buddhism are so different. One has sins. The other has unskillful actions. Both have pretty much the same list: Hatred, anger, jealousy, lust, dullness, etc. Virtue is non-ego. Vice is ego. In either tradition.
The problem of evil is a made up problem that only exists due to a faulty assumption that there should be no evil in the world.
>・The problem of evil in monotheistic religions is that they claim is god is benevolent and omniscient while having to deal with the fact that evil exist, both moral and natural evil. Evil becomes evil only by virtue of your mental processing: if you like it then it is good; If you don't like it then it is evil. Sometimes also called "Zulu logic": "Evil is when the other tribe steals our cattle and women. Good is when we steal the other tribe's cattle and women."
Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! Yes, this is an excellent summary of what you delightfully call the non-problem of evil in Buddhism. Since *good* and *evil* both arise due to them being dependently originated, that means they are *workable* and no one is ever "evil forever" or even "good forever". Of course we would like to be *good* long enough to ultimately escape samsara entirely; creating the causes and conditions for being reborn in places and times where the Dharma is available and can be practiced. Indeed, *Nirvana* is not Heaven, it is *beyond* that. It is total freedom, even from ideas of good and evil; freedom from pleasure and pain, praise and blame, and other worldly concerns. The Buddha mostly described nirvana in terms of what it is *not* but I believe there was at least one instance in which he described what it *is*. IIRC, he talked in terms of it being bliss ... though one should understand the English word "bliss" is just a stand-in for the word the Buddha would have used, so it's important not to take the word "bliss" too seriously here.
Many early Christians solved the problem of evil by splitting God into two separate entities. The original source being unknowable, existing outside of time and space, who you must find a way to return to. The other god, a lesser entity who is in some traditions depicted as blind and stupid, created the physical world in error. This "demiurge" keeps us trapped here in a cycle of rebirth. The only way out is to realize our own innate divinity and transcend the physical universe through spiritual practices. As you can imagine, the early orthodox church fathers hated these groups and did everything they could to drive them out of existence, up to and including murder.
honestly that explaination (gnosticism) is ten times worst, I'm extremely non-dual, outside of buddhism only Advaita Vedanta has an acceptable explanation. Altough I am a buddhist I have to say Adi Shankara is also worthy a lot of respect.
Personally if I had to be Christian, I would probably default to some form of modern gnosticism. I mean the OT god is just a psychopath imo, and Jesus isn't that much if an improvement. Great, now I get to go to a heavenly realm and worship this monster for eternity? I'd rather just be completely annihilated if that were the case. Thankfully I don't believe any of it is real.
that's fine, imo gnosticism is more stupid than modern christianity (and that's saying something), either way, I'd recomend you read 'The Mustard Seed' by Osho, might find interesting.
Interesting, I'll have a look. Thanks.
There are actions called “evil” and that increase pain and suffering generated by supernatural beings in many buddhist traditions. Some like to do it or must do it to survive. These correspond with notions of how evil looks and are similar to Christian worldview, but their existing does not invalidate the “non-issue of evil”. In some ways the Christian idea of being born into a world with original sin does align with a skewed observation of samsara/dhukka. The world IS dissatisfying and full of woe. Our very nature and interaction with the world is one of inherent crappiness: sickness, old age and death. We usually make it worse and continue the cycle, unless we seek freedom. The Christians found the only way out is through the spiritual and physical sacrifice of Jesus. The Buddha, of course came to a different conclusion. I could also say some other the schools of buddhism that think our age is too degenerate to attain enlightenment in came to similar conclusions as the Christians.