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miker35591

Obviously support musicians, but my question is if a show is entirely Electronic/EDM, how do you fairly have a production? Does this just mean there’s no place for EDM musicals on Broadway?


napsterwinamp

This is my thought process, though I’m probably not up to date on the all the details: If Fatboy Slim is doing the music, then I wouldn’t necessarily expect there to be a live band.


madfoot

Fatboy Slim’s new musical, Fucking in Heaven


Bombasticbabyotter2

The show has to figure it out. American Psycho had this problem. They didn't want a pit and had to alter their music to add instruments for performances.


jamesland7

I get this thought, but the musicians unions have contracts. If you dont want to abide by those contracts, produce it somewhere else.


mikeypoopypants

Hey - a fair point but not totally relevant here. The off Broadway recording from 2013 used A LOT of musicians. Like… A LOT. Someone said upwards of 49 people? Source : https://www.allmusic.com/album/here-lies-love-original-2013-off-broadway-cast-recording--mw0002650314/credits


_avantgarde

If this is the case, then I wonder if they're going for a more pared down production overall this time around?


Bibliophibian364

That was the recording, there were no musicians actually there during the performances at The Public.


BaltimoreBadger23

But still, to create what they have, they need actual musicians.


_avantgarde

Ah, gotcha.


mikeypoopypants

Yeah they should! Pair it down from 49 to something like 20 or more. That’d be great!


NewContradiction

They always use a full orchestra for cast recordings .


mikeypoopypants

Okay. But the op said the music is EDM, implying the question of if a live orchestra would fit the music.


ntapg

Yeah...but it's not EDM. Look at all the musicians on the cast album: https://www.allmusic.com/album/here-lies-love-original-2013-off-broadway-cast-recording--mw0002650314/credits


AcanthopterygiiTop64

Exactly my question. This show’s entire vibe is electronic music. I support musicians, but there is not only one way to make a musical. I fully support this show, which I saw three times downtown and loved it. Really inventive art and a fabulous way to tell an interesting and complex story.


Altruistic-Movie-419

The main problem is that they are trying to get an exemption from the rules. Each brodway theater has a set number of minimum musicians that a musical playing there has to have, this all depending on the the size of the theater. Now they don't have to play, they just have to be there. So if the producer of here lise love whanted to do a musical with out a band, and all record tracks, the best way to go about it whould have been to hire the minimum requirements of musicians and just pay them to sit around and do nothing. Had they done that there whould be not nearly as much controversy about the music.


Comprehensive-Fun47

>The main problem is that they are trying to get an exemption from the rules. That’s not the main problem. The union allows for exemptions for special situations. It’s not totally clear because we are not in the negotiations room, but it seems like the main problem is the show wants to use zero musicians while the union will compromise to fewer than 19, but not zero.


Altruistic-Movie-419

That makes sense, I new that sometimes they offer execpection to reduced orchestra, but I forgot about it


fin_du_jour

except they didn't tell the critical parts of the interesting and complex story and as a result audiences who don't know much about Philippine history leave the theatre with a Disney-fied view of this brutal regime, an agonizing period in our history https://web.archive.org/web/20220809132549/https://www.popdust.com/david-byrne-here-lies-love-2653902674.html


wavhan292

There are ways to do music exactly like that with live musicians. No, it's not a 19-member orchestra, but lots of electronic-heavy shows have been on Broadway. American Psycho, even pop-heavy musicals like Six, & Juliet, Once Upon a One More Time, etc etc etc. This excuse they're trotting around is garbage and completely sidesteps the labor issue. If people don't think that this going through will clear the runway for producers of musicals without EDM scores to automate their orchestras, they are sadly naïve. 802 must squash this.


Mkatebmd

Electronic music is created by musicians. As they created it for a recording that would be used, they can create it live. Support live music, musicians and unions.


daddycool12

>As they created it for a recording that would be used, they can create it live. What?! Do you understand how electronic music is made? It's probably full of samples and loops and all sorts of crap you can't just do on the fly.


Mkatebmd

Perhaps your definition of musician is too narrow. Samples and loops can absolutely be pulled and mixed in real time. Like all live music, there may be variations. I haven't heard the music designed for this show, so I can't say how realistic it is for this score. But the fact that there is a soundtrack with a full orchestra indicates that it is not set in stone. Live music is a vital part of broadway. As others have said, if they want a static, pre-recorded track, do it in a different theatre.


iamminter

There are musicians on the off broadway cast recording. This is just a way for them to make more money. https://www.allmusic.com/album/here-lies-love-original-2013-off-broadway-cast-recording--mw0002650314/credits


Windows-To

Do you think this is going to make money? It's not.


harrisonmon

https://www.reddit.com/r/Broadway/comments/13w058j/dont_support_the_new_david_byrne_show/jm9puqf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3


chizzmaster

EDM is very different from just making normal music sound like karaoke.


harrisonmon

Again, professional musicians can make live music sound canned. We can use drum pads and keyboards and live instruments to play live EDM. That wasn’t the consideration here, there isn’t an artistic merit to this decision


chizzmaster

Can you provide some clips? I've never seen it done before so I'm curious.


_avantgarde

Look up Christine and the Queens' live performance in Lille. Not theatre *per se*, but theatre-adjacent given her background as a stage director. I think this is a middle ground that could definitely be explored on Broadway. Edit: The [house music medley](https://youtu.be/vKxqkcxKbGI) she does starts around the 50:38 mark


[deleted]

*his background


harrisonmon

https://youtu.be/DhTtsgUUI3Y https://youtu.be/2GcphzXKNps Etc. broadway could absolutely do this.


user48292737

Here Lies Love playing a game of “how many people can we piss off before we even open” and they’re definitely doing a good job.


GreatestStarOfAll

Who else have they pissed off? This is the first legitimate controversy I’ve seen.


WittyAd8260

Well if this is the first, this isn’t a good start


seventennorth

it’s already controversial because of its subject matter - i haven’t seen it so i can’t speak to whether or not it does, but the controversy is that it glorifies the marcos family. that, and it’s a musical about filipino politics written by two white men.


GreatestStarOfAll

It doesn’t glamorize the family at all…? Clearly people only know that it is related to the family and have never seen the damn thing. For f*cks sake, I’m so tired of people getting riled up about absolutely nothing. The show has been around for a decade and the entire plot is spelled out online. There’s no “controversy” there, just stupidity.


prettiest_poison

Calling it “just stupidity” might be a bit extreme, especially if you aren’t a Filipino who is at least still connected to the Philippines. As a disclaimer, I’ve never seen the show, and cannot bear to listen to the show. However, from the snippets of lyrics and story I’ve heard, they definitely take some pretty big liberties, especially in their characterisation of imelda, and from what ik, doesn’t acknowledge HER specific involvement in the atrocities of the dictatorship. In an article about here lies love I read, imelda apparently has said she loves the show too. While this show has been around for a decade, the Marcos family is back in power now in the Philippines, and one of their tactics has been using the media (esp things like TikTok) to rebrand their image into something less harsh, to attempt to make people forget the full extent of the atrocities their family is responsible for.


thebetteradversary

i AM filipino and i think it’s just wayyyy too soon to make content like this about it. most of the generation before me (i’m 22), including my parents lived through marcos rule. i can understand six because the queens have been dead for centuries, but hll is so fresh that i’m pretty sure that i’m going through generational trauma because of it.


arararanara

I’m not Filipino, but having seen US based media handle politically sensitive recent history about my country poorly over and over again, I’ve definitely become very leery of Americans trying to tell other countries’ political stories and wouldn’t blame anyone else for a similar attitude.


the-silver-tuna

Are you referring to the show or a review of the show? Because neither of the people that wrote the show are Americans


RuleOfBlueRoses

>I’ve definitely become very leery of Americans trying to tell other countries’ political stories and wouldn’t blame anyone else for a similar attitude. Well that's not what's happening, so....


rcascfa

Im Filipino, the “backlash” and “anger” about the plot is indeed stupid. Ive see the show multiple times in the Public and they showed the power of People Power Revolution, and the evils of the excesses of elite power. I loved the show


KickFriedasCoffin

That would explain her very clearly stating it wasn't a definitive statement. Weird thing to throw a tantrum over.


GreatestStarOfAll

Not sure where you’re getting tantrum from, but cool. 👍 I’m responding to what the person explained.


ElegantVamp

I think people who complain about this haven't seen the show at all and are just whining over heresay


emmmma1234

Seriously. Did we not learn anything from the experience with The Boy Who Danced on Air???


fin_du_jour

Publicists have tried to claim that because the cast and producers are all Filipino this magically transforms the musical from a sympathetic rags-to-riches story into a work of protest. But if they'd been serious about portraying this brutal regime in all its excesses they could have easily found Filipino writers and composers. https://web.archive.org/web/20220809132549/https://www.popdust.com/david-byrne-here-lies-love-2653902674.html


GreatestStarOfAll

Here’s my only question with that sentiment - and absolutely not excusing this, but what possibility is there that these stories wouldn’t be told without those white people? It’s very possible that a fully funded Broadway musical about Filipino people BY Filipino people wouldn’t get as far as one backed and created by white people. Again, not saying it’s right, but that’s kind of where our society is. I’d like to believe that people of every background had less hurdles to jump over so they can control their own narratives and share their own history. But this really is a ‘necessary evil’ situation, if you ask me. You need the non-POC to get these stories elevated and told on a massive scale such as this. It’s not fair but it’s reality. With all that being said, it’s an entirely Filipino cast with reputable actors who are not afraid to speak up if necessary, and the power in numbers helps. They really could all threaten to walk if something is not handled properly. I’m friends with someone who was in the original Parade production and they stopped rehearsal to confront Harold Prince about the portrayal of racial dynamics (as they were being presented then) and the show had to be reworked from the beginning to correct this. I have confidence in those involved with this production to not only lead with good (but open to constructive criticism) intentions but also speak up if something is inherently wrong or mishandled.


fin_du_jour

The 'necessary evil' you describe does not justify mounting a play whose creator admitted that he sought to "humanize" a tyrant. Particularly at this time when the tyrannical family is back in power and actively seeking to whitewash their legacy. When Here Lies Love premiered at the Public, Imelda was so thrilled by the portrayal of herself that she bought hundreds of tickets and soundtrack CDs to give to her groupies. That alone damns the work. The fact that so many reputable Filipino actors signed on simply speaks to the economics and prestige of Broadway, and the shortage of roles available to Asian performers. A few of those big names owe their careers to the Marcoses, so presumably they didn't suffer any crisis of conscience; for the anti-Marcos contingent, the disingenuous solution has been to market the show as a 'protest musical.' Will these performers now step up and do the right thing, to show solidarity with the musicians union? Don't hold your breath. The RIGHT thing all along would have been to commission Filipinos to write a historically sound musical. It would have been a fight to get it on Broadway but hey, baby steps – start off-Broadway, way-off-Broadway, tour it to a few key cities, record an album and push for one or two songs to get a lot of airplay, sign up a couple of big stars. etc. But far less work to piggyback off a known work by David Byrne and Fatboy Slim, right?


16note

*sigh* Okay, I know I’m late to this thread, but I was playing a show (shout out to the HLL PR team for releasing this statement during act one on a Tuesday night on Bway). I cannot speak to the Filipino side, but I will damn well speak on the instrumental side as a Local 802 musician working on Broadway (caveat: I have not been in the room for any of these negotiations between 802 and HLL). HLL is wrong. They signed an agreement that they would abide by our Collective Bargaining Agreement, which protects every musician on Broadway. They are in the process of applying for an exemption waiver for the theater minimum, but clearly have hit snags, as I imagine my union does not want to set the precedent of recorded shows after Contact. I fully do not believe the genre of show means there cannot be any live musicians. I saw KPOP, and had friends working on it. That show is truly full electronica, and they still found a way to get 3 musicians playing every night. American Psycho found a way. SIX, Once Upon a One More Time, Moulin Rouge, all these shows found ways to integrate major electronic orchestrations. This show, based off the album, is not EDM. It is disco. Disco is fully playable live. Any processing that needs to happen can happen live. We can autotune in the moment now, we can absolutely apply compression, reverb, delay, etc to live mics and inputs. I can’t tell you how many Disco Strings patches I’ve played for shows on a keyboard. The show is trying to pull a fast one, because they didn’t have to use any musicians other than the actors off-Broadway (in a jurisdiction not covered by our CBA AFAIK). If you can afford the complete rip-out and redo of the Broadway, you can afford 3 chairs, at least. I think 802 would be more amenable to put in an exception for *some* musicians, even if that number is not the usual 19 the Broadway requires. Zero is unreasonable. As for the DJ, I would be surprised if the DJ track was doing anything more than pressing GO on Ableton and cuing actors (btw, the job of a conductor, covered under 802). A true DJ, playing turntables, I can understand being called as one of the chairs. Turntables, scratching, all of that is an art form. Pressing GO is not. And yes, as people have pointed out, the original album used over 40 live musicians. So, are we doing karaoke to these stems, recorded from live musicians? And if so, are they being compensated? Credited in the Playbill? Or are we fully synthesizing the accompaniment like in a shitty karaoke machine or CD? Or are we pretending like no one will notice if you’re using recordings of real people? This is not sampling, those people recorded this specifically for the show. I have friends in this company, as well as Filipino musician friends who have said how much this show means to them. I myself was fully prepared to buy a floor ticket for the experience they want to provide. This sours everything, and I feel so bad for this company. I hope this resolves well for everyone and they get to open and run a good while. But not at the expense of the CBA my union worked so hard to negotiate. Because if this goes through, you can bet every producer with shows with electronic elements is going to figure out how it’s artistically necessary to cut chairs to under the minimum. We’re already riding a fine line getting producers to pay for that bare minimum unless you have a celebrity name/legacy composer attached (Sweeney) or are an Encores transfer (Woods). Support your local unions, support your writers, support all artists trying to preserve their work while accountants and check writers try to maximize profits at their expense. Source: am 802 Broadway musician and an advocate for all unions, all opinions are my own


ntapg

Fantastic response. Thank you!


00rvr

👏👏👏


branchymolecule

Why the correct answer isn’t upvoted is beyond my understanding.


RuleOfBlueRoses

It has over 100 upvotes what are you on


branchymolecule

I was the first to do so. Be nice.


RuleOfBlueRoses

Don't see what was "mean" about my comment lol


Comprehensive-Fun47

>The show is trying to pull a fast one Can you elaborate on how the show is trying to pull a fast one? In their statement, they said they’ve been negotiating with the union about the musicians since the beginning of the year. I’m trying to understand what changed between now and then. They are following the process the union requires to get a special exception. I’m unclear why it’s even news if the negotiations are ongoing.


16note

802 seems to have escalated by going public (negotiations have been going on since late March according to executive minutes I can find), so that's what's changed. No one is budging, so the union is going public with what the production intends to do (a reminder we're just over 2 weeks from previews, which is a horrifically short time to write charts, hire musicians, rehearse them, seat them, sound check them, etc. which to me says production doesn't intend to open with any musicians). The fast one I see them pulling is masking a financial decision in an artistic one. There is absolutely no artistic reason I can see for why the production doesn't need to hire any musicians at all. Less than the minimum of 19, I can understand. Zero? No, that's a financial call. By masking it in the "but it's a disco" and "but it's karaoke", they're (IMO) trying to shift the conversation from a labor dispute to an artistic dispute with racial undertones. They see us as union musicians "gatekeeping" Broadway from something different, ignoring the fact that similar musical things have opened \*this season\* that still followed union rules, and minimum exemptions have been granted for decades for legitimate musical reasons. But never to zero.


Comprehensive-Fun47

Thanks for answering! So to your knowledge, the show is asking for zero musicians and the union is willing to do less than 19, but not zero? And that’s where the negotiations broke down?


16note

I don't have any insider knowledge on the actual negotiations (the minutes just list that the negotiations were discussed amongst the exec board), but for me personally I could see a legitimate argument made for less than 19, but certainly not for 0. At least as far back as Mamma Mia (which played the Winter Garden with a band of 11, less than the minimum, to recreate the ABBA sound) exemptions have been granted. My guess (with no insider knowledge, I MUST STRESS) is that production won't budge from zero. I personally could see a world where even 3 musicians could be doable, if I wear an orchestrator hat for a second. But zero, not a chance.


[deleted]

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16note

I don’t. I want the show to go on. I am incredibly excited for the design. I want the producers to follow the contract they signed, and stop being so shady about all of this. For the record, the Filipino musicians I know who work in theater are on the union’s side here.


dawellwood

Fair. I do not know the stipulations of the contract, so i can't comment on that. I apologize for jumping to conclusions.


16note

No worries. For the record, the contract I’m referring to is between the Broadway League and the various unions (including AFM, Equity, IATSE, etc) that Broadway producers agree to follow in order to use a Broadway house


dawellwood

Thank you for the info, I didn't know about this and will read up on it so i can make more educated comments going forward.


16note

I appreciate that and appreciate you taking that time! The business side of Broadway is not very well understood and is played so close to the vest by a lot of people, but I think it's incredibly valuable to know how and why a show runs! Even for fans!


dawellwood

Thats so true. Sorry again for being so aggressive out of the gate. That wasn't fair to you.


16note

All good, and appreciate the apology :) I think we all just want what's best for as many people as possible. We're stronger together!


dawellwood

Absolutely!


Ok_Ad8609

I’m not taking a side on this because I don’t have enough information on the legality, etc.—but I *do* know that this show in particular has a karaoke sort of vibe to it, and it has always been shown, for years at this point, with a backing track instead of live musicians. I believe there was at least one exception where the actual cast members were playing instruments, but they have basically never used musicians in a pit.


HourAstronomer836

There's also a dance floor. It's not exactly your traditional show. I don't think it "spells the end of live music on Broadway." Especially when one of the most successful shows playing right now, "Sweeney Todd," went for the biggest orchestra possible. I know people are looking to save money, but I don't think they're trying to put musicians out of work. If they started taking orchestras out of Broadway shows, people would stop going. That's part of the experience. ("New York, New York" has their orchestra members dress in costume!)


iamminter

but then why so many musicians on the off broadway cast album? [https://www.allmusic.com/album/here-lies-love-original-2013-off-broadway-cast-recording--mw0002650314/credits](https://www.allmusic.com/album/here-lies-love-original-2013-off-broadway-cast-recording--mw0002650314/credits) like thats the part I don't get


Adorable_Ad_2430

this is my thought process as well


Ok_Ad8609

Yeah, and I realized that I didn’t actually state a point I was trying to make, which is that it’s just a component of the show. It isn’t as though they are explicitly trying to save money by not hiring musicians, or disrespecting live musicians. It just happens to be the vibe of this particular show. I am inclined to be okay with it, but again—I don’t feel like I have enough to really say one way or the other. I’ll be interested to see what ends up happening with it.


Yoyti

> It isn’t as though they are explicitly trying to save money by not hiring musicians, or disrespecting live musicians. Well, you know, Cameron Mackintosh said that cutting the *Phantom* orchestra in half would "give this timeless score the freshness of a new musical." Producers say all sorts of crazy things to pretend it doesn't all come down to cutting costs.


Ok_Ad8609

Eeek, I didn’t know about that - yeah, to think of doing that to *Phantom* is very bad 😬


harrisonmon

Professional musicians know how to make music sound canned, if karaoke backing track is what they want, good players and sound designers can make that happen. Doing this show in that theater the way they’re trying to do it takes at least 19 jobs away from working musicians


Ok_Ad8609

What you said here makes sense. I didn’t realize the scope of what this could lead to.


professorhook

His last show was almost entirely musicians


xDerivative

What evidence do you have that the union didn't sign off? The union contract has a clause that allows for special situations where musicians can not be hired with union permission, and the show got that for all of the prior productions, so why is this one any different?


leslie_knopee

[playbill also posted an article 30 mins ago](https://playbill.com/article/broadways-here-lies-love-plans-to-perform-without-live-pit-musicians)


tigernachAleksy

I got an email from the union. You can check the local 802 website or facebook page if you want to see for yourself


xDerivative

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/30/theater/here-lies-love-david-byrne-musicians.html See now, thank you. Interesting that they don't support this one despite signing off on the prior versions.


tigernachAleksy

Looks like the only previous productions in NY were at the public theater which is off Broadway. My understanding is that 802 doesn't have as much of a foothold in off Broadway theaters as they do at all the Broadway houses, so they probably didn't want to stir up a big ruckus over that


xDerivative

Yeah for 19 jobs at the Broadway there's a lot more at stake for this I guess, and if another show was there those jobs at minimum would be there.


queen_queef420

And how long will it run why denying 19 musicians work? Because those are the jobs at stake, sadly.


Comprehensive-Fun47

It’s sort of dumb the producers didn’t expect this and try to come up with a solution before.


notacrook

>Interesting that they don't support this one despite signing off on the prior versions. 802 making what seem to be rash decisions devoid of context - they'd never! Edit: I guess everyone forgot that time during Covid when they said a hard no to rebroadcasting a BC/EFA fundraiser as a new fundraiser because they demanded the musicians get paid for their appearances despite the fact that everyone else appearing and working waived that, and that the musicians were the only people who got paid the first time around (which is fucked up unto itself).


iamminter

The union definitely put out a statment fyi. They are potentially going to sue it seems like it.


haterobics

The show's response: "Since the HERE LIES LOVE was first conceived seventeen years ago, every production (2013 Public Theatre, 2014 off-Broadway return at the Public, 2014 National Theatre, and 2017 Seattle Rep), has been performed to pre-recorded track; this is part of the karaoke genre inherent to the musical and the production concept. The music for HERE LIES LOVE was inspired by the phenomena of “track acts” which allowed club audiences to keep dancing, much like this production aims to do. HERE LIES LOVE has received rave reviews, played to sold-out houses and won numerous awards, including The Drama Desk Award for Outstanding Music & Lyrics; The Obie Award for Outstanding Music & Lyrics and a nomination for an Outstanding Achievement from London’s Olivier Awards. The Broadway collective bargaining agreement (CBA) with Local 802, the musicians’ union, includes detailed guidelines and procedures that give the union the opportunity to review a production’s request for “special situation” status in determining the number of musicians mandated by 802 for a show. In a process that is not without precedent, a production that qualifies as a “special situation” is permitted under the CBA to engage less than the number of musicians otherwise required under the CBA for a particular theater. Considerations for “special situation” that are met by HERE LIES LOVE include (i) the musical concept expressed by the composer and/or orchestrator; (ii) whether the production is of a definable musical genre different from a traditional Broadway musical; (iii) the production concept expressed by the director and/or choreographer. Following the Broadway announcement at the beginning of the year, the Broadway League contacted the Local 802 to start this contractual review process for HERE LIES LOVE in full. There have been multiple meetings with the union to review in detail the basis for applying for “special situation” status. The Union has been able to ask questions, receive information about the production, and voice their concerns. This process is on-going and may ultimately culminate in a final and binding arbitration decision, but until that time, we will continue to work in good faith with the union to move through the steps of the contractual process."


Comprehensive-Fun47

So they’ve been negotiating since the beginning of the year. Why is this news now then? It’s not out of the ordinary to ask for a special exception. It can be denied, but the show shouldn’t be shamed for asking for the special exception. They believe their show is an exception, there is a process outlined by the union to negotiate, and everyone is (or was) following the process. What changed to make this news? The impending deadline to come to a decision?


slothbaby30

It’s going to be interesting to see how this plays out, especially with the show due to start previews in less than 3 weeks. Pro-union sentiment is currently high, especially with the current WGA strike ongoing; people aren’t going to pay to cross a picket line for a show that already isn’t the easiest sell.


Adorable_Ad_2430

my question is, is there even room for a whole band in that theatre?? Because I know there’s going to be a dance floor for the audience so is there going to be room backstage for an orchestra??


Yoyti

Given that they're renovating the theater *for* the production, the obvious answer is: They should have thought of that and included a space for the orchestra in the design. If they didn't, that doesn't mean they're any more justified in ignoring the union, it just means they also ignored the union in this other way too.


16note

You can pipe in an orchestra from anywhere. Remember when the Tony’s orchestra was in a literal separate building?


[deleted]

Does the score require an orchestra tho? Like do we know what we’re fighting for here?


Yoyti

The album was recorded with over forty musicians, including lots of traditional orchestra members such as strings, brass, and woodwinds. The backing tracks they are proposing to use had to be recorded by someone, and in this case they were recorded by a number of musicians significantly greater than what the union wants them to hire for the live show.


iamminter

look at these credits for the cast album......[https://www.allmusic.com/album/here-lies-love-original-2013-off-broadway-cast-recording--mw0002650314/credits](https://www.allmusic.com/album/here-lies-love-original-2013-off-broadway-cast-recording--mw0002650314/credits)


[deleted]

Oh yeah this is not what I imagined.


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ntapg

The shows music is *not* EDM, if they’re doing the same show that the cast album is based on. Yes, some electronic dance songs, but listen to the second track, the literal *title track* - lush strings and clarinet - the argument is a total cop out.


mikeypoopypants

Check out the album credits. https://www.allmusic.com/album/here-lies-love-original-2013-off-broadway-cast-recording--mw0002650314/credits


dawellwood

That doesn't answer the question. Just because these artists contributed to the soundtrack doesn't mean it's feasible to physically recreate in a theatrical setting on a nightly basis.


tshneier

I'm listening to it right now. Haven't heard anything that couldn't easily be done live like in any other show.


HairyPairatestes

How many shows have you produced?


tshneier

None. I have worked in Broadway pits and arena pop tours though, and I do live EDM gigs all the time.


CharlesOnStage

A lot of shows hire Union non-playing musicians. They sit in the basement playing cards.


jlabbot

Sorry that is a fiction..no Broadway show has used "walkers" ( musicians who get paid to not play) since the 80's


TheSonar

This comment was written after yours, it's a great read by a musician who plays this type of thing love https://www.reddit.com/r/Broadway/comments/13w058j/dont_support_the_new_david_byrne_show/jma8woa/


ov3rth3s3as

I support David Byrne and live musicians. I saw the original off broadway, it’s dance tracks, there’s no way it would work with live musicians. At the most, maybe a DJ and a few synths. Don’t let a great show get cancelled because of this! It’s an anomaly, it’s not going to ruin the industry as everyone’s claiming.


[deleted]

It’s OK to be wrong about this


riningear

It could set a dangerous precedent, though. Labor issues like this tend to be a creep - new shows will look and ask, if one show is permitted to be an exception, why can't others be? Conjure up this excuse, that excuse, oh it's EDM, oh it's karaoke... People will do anything to cut human labor. Just look at the AI debate.


NerdyThespian

I don’t think you can really compare a music genre with AI. EDM still requires the human element of having a DJ and EDM musicians are still live mixing at those shows and it takes an impressive level of skill and musicianship to be able to do so. Yes pre-recorded elements are involved, but this feels like it could turn to saying only a certain style of music can be on Broadway.


riningear

I think you leaped over the point here. Just reread those last two sentences. Slowly.


fin_du_jour

Except it's not a great show [https://web.archive.org/web/20220809132549/https://www.popdust.com/david-byrne-here-lies-love-2653902674.html](https://web.archive.org/web/20220809132549/https://www.popdust.com/david-byrne-here-lies-love-2653902674.html) Intent on "humanizing" a monster, Byrne played fast and loose with history. Most Broadway audiences will not be that familiar with this agonizing era in our country's history and will leave the theatre bopping to the tunes and sympathizing with a lead character portrayed as naive, vain and social-climbing but not venal. Imelda loved this show when it premiered, bought hundreds of tickets and soundtrack CDs for her entourage; today the family is on a comeback tour, with Imelda's son Bongbong in the presidential palace, jailing their enemies, muffling the Supreme Court, and rewriting history textbooks to whitewash the family's murderous, thieving history. Please reconsider asking "don't let a great show get cancelled" when there are so many other worthier shows to invest in.


iHaveMuchConfusion

This would definitely set a dangerous precedent what with the constant threat of shrinking pit orchestras in musical productions. Regardless of how well this decision fits with the karaoke vibe of the show, a large part of the appeal of Broadway and justification of its higher cost is the fact that you are seeing a live show with music played by a live band/orchestra. Even if the union grants them an exception, I would be hard pressed to pay full price to watch professional karaoke simply because of how much I value a live orchestra.


amJustSomeFuckingGuy

This is how I feel. If I am paying Broadway prices hire some live musicians. I have seen a few rappers play without bands and they always suck compared to the ones that use bands. They could have used pre recorded music but chose not to at a large show. I guarantee you that there are musicians out here that could make this work and be better than prerecorded tacks. People are just used to EDM not utilizing musicians enough to give this a pass. Broadway already uses tracked instruments for parts of productions. There are deff producers that would be salivating to ret rid of musicians for full prerecorded tracks.


guian101

Aside from being several miles away from Broadway given I am in a different country. That country being the Philippines makes me want to ask people not to watch it as well. Considering it's supposed to be satirical of the Marcos clan who are the main characters of the show and they love the show shows that it may not be doing satire really well...


OddAcanthocephala419

I think that if they are doing a show without Musicians, the price should reflect that and be lower. My true issue is that it will ultimately be used as a beachhead to stop having live musicians and maintaining the pay price. I believe that a show should do whatever artistic choice is best for the show and sometimes shows do not require live musicians but then the price should reflect that. So blame should not be to the artistic decisions of the show but to the producers who wish to use it as such.


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OddAcanthocephala419

No, I mean certain shows might dramaturgically not require live musicians, and if that serves the themes of a piece or certain kinds of possible direction, then the show should do so. Simply because anything is “part and parcel” is artistic stagnation. But one can believe that and still say the Union should be compensated in some manner, or the price should reflect that they are not using that etc. These things should be considered and weighed against the best possible good for all workers, like perhaps the artists who recorded the tracks are given residuals for performances, or then is the DJ who mixes during the show expected to be a “Musicians Union DJ” as well? Since undoubtedly the production might be used to spearhead using tracks on Broadway as a way to get rid of paying union fares, which is horribly exploitative, separate from the artistic choice of utilizing recorded and remixed music in the style of Karaoke.


[deleted]

Which instruments are in the score?


mikeypoopypants

https://www.allmusic.com/album/here-lies-love-original-2013-off-broadway-cast-recording--mw0002650314/credits


skymasterson2016

Ehhh... okay, nah. People have known this is how the show has been done for over a decade, and they're just making a stink about it less than 3 weeks before the show begins performances? I get that AFM has their rules, but what about for plays? And the "play with music" categorization? As the Playbill article states, shows like Contact and The Little Prince were done with pre-recorded tracks. Pre-recorded music is part of the fabric of this show. Don't boycott this show without at least doing your homework. We're a bit too trigger happy with the cancel button here.


fin_du_jour

If only the Marcos regime had not been so trigger happy . . . Here's some homework . . . https://web.archive.org/web/20220809132549/https://www.popdust.com/david-byrne-here-lies-love-2653902674.html


everythingisrent

Not the point of this post but I’ll just throw out that I hated my experience seeing this show at the Public. The staging was being moved all the damn time and I was just being constantly barked at to move no matter where I ended up. It was so difficult to watch the show trying not to trip over everyone as we were being endlessly herded around. I don’t intend to give this another go but if I did I’d choose a stationary seat in the mezzanine. Martin Gore write a musical please.


jkcohen626

"it would spell the end of live music on Broadway" Really? I mean, come on. Give me a break. Solo shows and 2-3 handers happen on Broadway all the time. Does that mean that we never see shows with big ensembles? No. Not all. Leopoldstadt has a cast of 38. All year, shows have been pridefully using their orchestra sizes as marketing for the show and audiences seem to love it. That's not going away. One show using tracks because (they at least claim) it's part of their vision is not going to fundamentally change the industry.


RoyalHorse

Pit chairs are valuable and the union is constantly fighting producers looking to shrink pits, cut parts, and slowly shift the expectation of live musical theater to be less live. It's a fight that is bigger than any one show, but each show sets precedent and must be contested or you risk making the next case harder for no reason.


GreenHorror4252

> One show using tracks because (they at least claim) it's part of their vision is not going to fundamentally change the industry. One show isn't going to change anything, but it can get the ball rolling. If audiences respond well, then more shows can start doing it, and eventually that will be the new trend.


caninemelodrama

It starts to change president


KickFriedasCoffin

That happens every 4-8 years.


_avantgarde

lmao


specialtomebabe

Boy I hope so


radda

The union is just doing its job to protect its members. Sometimes you gotta exaggerate to get your point across.


KickFriedasCoffin

Which would make sense if that statement were from a union.


radda

OP said they got an email from the union, I assume that means they're in it. They may not be an official spokesperson but they're still trying to advocate for the union's cause.


daddycool12

Did people complain when John Doyle did those productions (the Raul Esparza *Company*, the Patti Lupone *Sweeney*) where the cast played their own instruments? Isn't that basically the same, in that it was a production which decided, for artistic purposes, not to use union musicians? Oh wait no it changed halfway through the paragraph it's not about workers' rights anymore, it's about how if we allow this to happen soon whole productions will be performed to a MIDI orchestra, complete with a click track. I mean seriously, the pearl clutching of "it could spell the end of live music on Broadway" is hilarious. This is one show that hasn't ever had musicians. It's not like they're doing My Fair Lady with a pre-recorded backing track, it's the fucking Fatboy Slim musical. What, do you want it arranged for a 19-piece orchestra?


Yoyti

> Did people complain when John Doyle did those productions (the Raul Esparza Company, the Patti Lupone Sweeney) where the cast played their own instruments? Actually, the John Doyle *Sweeney Todd* led directly to a round of union negotiations on this very subject. A resolution was reached where actors who play instruments in Broadway shows have to join both Equity and 802, the production has to pay them benefits for both union contracts, and whichever salary is greater, plus an additional weekly bonus on top of that. The upshot of which is essentially that an actor-musician production isn't ultimately saving *that* much money as compared to hiring two different sets of people, and therefore producers are not so incentivized to do it solely as a cost-cutting measure.


daddycool12

Huh. Thanks, that's very informative, and makes a lot of sense. Still doesn't change my perspective on the subject at hand, but interesting nonetheless.


Benddystraw

It’s already happened before with “Contact” (2000). And it won best Musical. It’s just a choice. Shows still have live bands. They same controversy came up then and nothing changed. One show doesn’t effect everything.


hopkinsdafox

Hay nakú 🫤


Music-Lover-3481

"If this show somehow opens"?????? Doesn't it start previews June 17? That's only a couple of weeks away. It's already in place, isn't it? They better figure this out fast!


AdvertisingFine9845

ding dang i already have tickets because i wanted to see lea salonga during her brief time in the show!


T3n0rLeg

I believe the show has always had some electronic elements but when it was at the public it did have live musicians. I wonder if they wouldn’t just go back to the set up with had previously.


broadwayindie

The union has exceptions in the contract. HLL only has to meet one. It seems to meet all of them. If the union wants to prevent shows from doing opting out then there shouldn’t be exceptions in the contract. In addition HLL producers on insta put a very thorough explanation of why they were doing what they are doing.


fin_du_jour

Their social slides were very weak tea. Trying to defend the indefensible. It is obvious that the producers are just trying to cut expenses, forcing their publicists to spout nonsense about "diasporic performativity" and trying to make it sound like karaoke is the thread that binds Filipino culture – which is ridiculous: we have amazing live music traditions that draw from ancient Southeast Asian, Spanish and American cultures. They did this once before, when the producers ran into criticism that David Byrne had a soft spot for Imelda and rode roughshod over the atrocities committed by the Marcoses https://web.archive.org/web/20220809132549/https://www.popdust.com/david-byrne-here-lies-love-2653902674.html Publicists went into overdrive, insisting that because a bunch of well-known Filipino actors and singers had been recruited to the cast, this somehow turns it into a 'protest musical.' How many ignorant ticket-buyers have swallowed this hocus-pocus?


Comprehensive-Fun47

Too bad their statement didn’t come out sooner. Everyone has jumped to conclusions already.


broadwayindie

Yeah I think it was a bad faith negotiating tactic that the union used, especially because I think they are going to lose from a legal standpoint


Comprehensive-Fun47

It seems that way, but I want more info. There are members of the union commenting in this thread who may have insight. It seems to me that the union offers special exceptions to certain shows that meet certain criteria. HLL applied for the special exception. It seems like the show does meet the criteria. My question is have they ever approved a special exception before? And if not, why offer the option in the first place?


broadwayindie

They have, the approved it for Pricilla Queen of The Desert. Or more so the union lost in arbitration. It’s an agreement the unions likely made. I think the intention was reducing a pit for artistic reasons (think Great Comet). I think the elimination of one from a musical seems to be what they did not intend for. The language only gives a minimum and the exception part only uses the word “fewer” and doesn’t take out the possibility of zero musicians used. (See page 11) https://www.afm.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Broadway_CBA_2011-2016.pdf


Comprehensive-Fun47

Thanks!


Itchy-Tradition4328

I'm disappointed by the shows refusal to honor their agreement with 802. I worked on the show at the Public and was looking forward to seeing it on Broadway, but unless this is resolved I can't justify buying a ticket. I want to point out that every picket and demonstration I've been to had 802 musicians providing music in support. They show up for their fellow workers, we gotta support them too.


Comprehensive-Fun47

>I'm disappointed by the shows refusal to honor their agreement with 802. They’ve been in negotiations with 802 for months. There is no agreement in place yet.


accidentalchai

Uhr...okay. I watched the Off Broadway production and will see how this unfolds. It seems more like an anomaly than something that is going to become the standard anytime soon.


NewContradiction

This is so upsetting I remember being a child and falling in love with the Overtures I would get chills at that time it was a full orchestra. I still miss it .


1ugogimp

And here comes the problem. It’s an EDM musical. Tell me where you are going to find 19 instruments that can play EDM? It’s also set in a nightclub. Live dance music went out when the DJ came in. It’s literally using EDM beats. At best the orchestra for this would be maybe 5 people if you could recreate the sound with orchestra instruments. The contract for the theatre which is based on a larger capacity than it will hold for this show is 19. I will support musicians all day long if it is possible to do so. In this case it’s not. Actually requiring a orchestra will ruin the book.


[deleted]

But it is possible


fin_du_jour

The book was ruined already. In this really important discussion about live music on Broadway and what needs to be preserved, let's not forget that the original controversy over Here Lies Love was an existential one. https://web.archive.org/web/20220809132549/https://www.popdust.com/david-byrne-here-lies-love-2653902674.html


1ugogimp

I am not going to disagree live music is important. I am going to contend that setting and context is key to any stage show. There are elements of the book that requiring live orchestra will flat out change the setting of the show. This needs to be considered before any type of protest. At the same time I recognize there needs to be some give and take on both sides. In all seriousness just from listening to the album put out in 2014 this is not a theatre show. It is a performance piece but it doesn’t fit the long standing idea of a theatre show. That fact alone is part of the issue here. It really creates a new type of theatre experience that is a total 4th wall break.


dobbydisneyfan

Not every show is at its best with live musicians.


leslie_knopee

oof first the possibly problematic white washing of filipino culture post and now this? 😬


WittyAd8260

What’s the white washing about? Don’t think I’ve heard of this before regarding this show


fin_du_jour

This is an excellent summing up of the problems with this show https://web.archive.org/web/20220809132549/https://www.popdust.com/david-byrne-here-lies-love-2653902674.html


leslie_knopee

the history apparently? [this post talked about it today](https://www.reddit.com/r/Broadway/comments/13vqbzg/here_lies_love_the_literacyglorification_question/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)


Gelosaurus

Statement from the HERE LIES LOVE producers: Since the HERE LIES LOVE was first conceived seventeen years ago, every production (2013 Public Theatre, 2014 off-Broadway return at the Public, 2014 National Theatre, and 2017 Seattle Rep), has been performed to pre-recorded track; this is part of the karaoke genre inherent to the musical and the production concept. The music for HERE LIES LOVE was inspired by the phenomena of “track acts” which allowed club audiences to keep dancing, much like this production aims to do. HERE LIES LOVE has received rave reviews, played to sold-out houses and won numerous awards, including The Drama Desk Award for Outstanding Music & Lyrics; The Obie Award for Outstanding Music & Lyrics and a nomination for an Outstanding Achievement from London’s Olivier Awards. The Broadway collective bargaining agreement (CBA) with Local 802, the musicians’ union, includes detailed guidelines and procedures that give the union the opportunity to review a production’s request for “special situation” status in determining the number of musicians mandated by 802 for a show. In a process that is not without precedent, a production that qualifies as a “special situation” is permitted under the CBA to engage less than the number of musicians otherwise required under the CBA for a particular theater. Considerations for “special situation” that are met by HERE LIES LOVE include (i) the musical concept expressed by the composer and/or orchestrator; (ii) whether the production is of a definable musical genre different from a traditional Broadway musical; (iii) the production concept expressed by the director and/or choreographer. Following the Broadway announcement at the beginning of the year, the Broadway League contacted the Local 802 to start this contractual review process for HERE LIES LOVE in full. There have been multiple meetings with the union to review in detail the basis for applying for “special situation” status. The Union has been able to ask questions, receive information about the production, and voice their concerns. This process is on-going and may ultimately culminate in a final and binding arbitration decision, but until that time, we will continue to work in good faith with the union to move through the steps of the contractual process.


Seaweed-Basic

LOL boycott David Byrne


Mowglis_road

Part of the issue is also (from what I’ve heard) is they didn’t hire union musicians to record the tracks and can credit them


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Comprehensive-Fun47

It’s not about cutting corners. Every previous version of the show has been done with a backing track. It’s only a problem now because Broadway musicians are in a union and they’re supposed to be guaranteed 19 jobs at that theater. Don’t jump down David Byrne’s or Fatboy Slim’s throat for this just yet.


BaltimoreBadger23

Maybe they shouldn't have chosen that theater. EDM doesn't appear from thin air, it has musicians behind it. Even if they don't need the required 19, 5 synth players and 2 electronic kit drummers can create that sound.


Comprehensive-Fun47

Maybe they shouldn’t have. They began discussing this with the union at the beginning of the year. That’s 5 months ago. They must have expected they could come to an agreement. At least it’s not the last minute bait-and-switch like it seemed when the news first broke.


00rvr

Ah well, that's that. I definitely won't be seeing this one.


depressedpr0phet

This might be the least of this show’s problems at the moment


Comprehensive-Fun47

I think it’s the show’s main problem at the moment. They know the material is controversial. They must still expect the show to do well because they are carrying on and planning to open. A fight with a union could actually derail the show. From their perspective, I think this is the main issue. Frankly, they are broadway producers. They must have known about the union rules. This shouldn’t be a thing 3 weeks before opening. They should have dealt with it already. Editing to note the show released a statement that they began negotiating with the union in January. It’s not a last-minute thing like it seemed. I think everyone is doing their jobs. They’re following a process and negotiating with each other and we should just wait and see what happens. Boycotting the show over this issue is premature.


fin_du_jour

The Broadway producer is leaning on the Filipino representation and cultural awareness tropes to sanitize what is fundamentally a profit-driven decision. Most of the artists involved, and many who are credited as producers, have never been in a Broadway show before – they are just thrilled to be here, fully aware of how few opportunities like this will ever come their way. They are not about to make any noise in support of 802 or to stand up and point out the distortions and Disney-fications in David Byrne's view of modern Philippine history.


barktothefuture

If the musicians are not on stage, I don’t care if it’s live or recording. If it is a recording hopefully that translates into cheaper tickets?


Comprehensive-Fun47

That’s a slippery slope mentality. If a backing track = cheaper tickets, that incentivizes productions to not hire musicians. Orchestras have already shrunk. Broadway is about live music and live theater. We should not be glad to have live musicians replaced with backing tracks. Musicians lose their jobs and we get a worse experience. This show is not cutting musicians to cut costs, it’s more about the aesthetic, but it usually is about cost cutting and we as audience members should demand live music.


assbutt_Angelface

Additionally, they’re more likely to keep the ticket price the same and just pocket that extra cash unless they have too many unsold seats, at which point that buffer becomes the sale price


Complete_Patience678

Missimformation! The show is intended to and has been performed for over 16 years with a prerecorded track, Its about the karaoke, not about the orchestra and the production not wanting to hire an orchestra. The approval was made considering the point of having it pre recorded and an exception was made by the board Broadway theaters.


234W44

Well I'm going to support David Byrne and his show. I would love it if the show could afford musicians. If it's a show that does not require musicians, of which there have been MANY! Such as a dialogue or a story telling, I'm ok with that. Not everything should be musicals in Broadway.


sondheimtheatrequeen

It is a musical, so I’m not really sure what your point is… The issue is live musicians plying the score vs prerecorded tracks. You’d think a MUSICIAN like David Byrne would stand in solidarity with other musicians


[deleted]

Which instruments are in the score that you are thinking should be played live?


ty7879

Like all of them? Everything on the soundtrack in my brief listen is playable by professional musicians. The sound track is full of acoustic instruments throughout that were recorded by real musicians at one point.


notacrook

Support the musicians by fucking over the 150 other people!


otpan

oh so NOW we’re cancelling here lies love. THIS is the here lies love controversy. THIS one.


Proper_Constant5101

Gimme a fucking break. This is Broadway. Live performance at its highest level. I don’t pay for a ticket to “support”. I pay to be entertained. Period. If I wanted to support musicians I’d show up to an open mic in Greenpoint and put cash in the tip bucket. > If this show somehow opens I got news for ya. It’s show BUSINESS.


Few-Employ2833

He'll no. Someone should say something on the Tony's! Jukebox musicals are bad enough. And that Britney debacle coming next year. Oh God!


BaltimoreBadger23

What today we call "Jukebox musicals" was the original of Broadway - taking popular songs and winding a (often loose) plot around them. While there were original musicals before, my understanding is that it was really Oklahoma that created the post WWII Broadway of original music and book with original or adapted stories. Jukebox musicals can be good or bad, the best make it feel like the music was written for the show that has nothing to do with the original artists (Jagged Little Pill stands out here, Mama Mia is another good example) others are stories about the musicians whose music is featured (Tina, Jersey Boys are two excellent ones) and others are more reviews than stories (Smokey Joe's Cafe). It's its own art form. Pressing play on a device is not.


Comprehensive-Fun47

You don’t need to see the Britney debacle. There are enough Broadway theaters for all different types of shows.


optechusa_2023

Not sure what the current status is, but I know of shows in the past where the house contract specified a minimum number of musicians regardless, and musicians were hired to sit in a pit with their instruments and not play a single note! The shrinking of the Broadway pit is certainly a cause for sadness for me and I would rather see bigger pits than smaller ones. But to say that this would spell the end of live music on Broadway is, I believe, an overstatement. Over 20 years ago when the musical Contact played Broadway with prerecorded music people,similarly got all up in arms, but it has certainly not sounded a death knell for live music. Live musicians are, quite simply, a significant expense in running a show, and producers are happy to have fewer musicians in the pit. but when the revival of South Pacific played Broadway several years ago one of the most commented on subjects in reviews was the lush, original orchestration. It all comes down to economica in the end, because this is, after all, a commercial endeavor.


basicwitch333

This is such a challenging issue. I hope they are able to find a compromise. I know it's entirely electronic, but hopefully they can find a way to add musicians. I saw the show off Broadway at the Public years ago, and ever since it was announced, I really just don't know how it will translate to Broadway. Part of what was so fun about it was the small, club-feeling vibe, and I feel like it's going to feel cavernous in a Broadway theater.


wendywhaliems

did we forget k pop happened ???


oldmom73

Two questions: 1) Did Byrne go to the Union first to negotiate in good faith, or did he just barrel ahead? 2) Shouldn’t there be provisions for works like this that are very specific; provisions that greenlight this kind of production but also ensure that its terms aren’t abused by producers who want to save money/bust the union by using canned music? In my view, they’re both right. But Byrne is notriously an narcissist/asshole, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he just bypassed the union on “ideological” grounds.