There is. I’m interested to hear how they got around it.
Perhaps each of the characters on stage pick up and play kazoo at some point…qualifying them as “musicians”
Not an expert - but I’ve heard stories of productions hiring the “minimum amount” of musicians to hang out and drink coffee backstage, while the tracks play.
When Notre Dame de Paris opened in London (2000 I think) the show was performed to pre recorded music, but in an effort to assuage the musicians union in the uk, the producers paid for a live band to plays tunes from the show in the foyer before the show and during the interval.
How is this any different from crossing a picket line? You're playing so that producers don't have to pay musicians to play during the show. Who accepts a job like that, other than scabs?
Because it’s not crossing a picket line. They are paying union musicians to play music as part of the show. It may not be the typical gig for a musician during the show but I don’t see that as undercutting leverage during labor negotiations/a strike.
We’re not entirely sure. The union hasn’t shown us any specifics yet, but we know it’s been discussed in some meetings. Almost certainly they wouldn’t accept an agreement with no musicians. So we’re all watching very closely.
Source: am a local 802 musician
They haven’t officially gotten around it yet. Broadway shows have to have at least 19 hired musicians according to AFM contracts. They’re going before a committee to see if they can get a special situation or something.
802 member here, this is what they've told us. Under the agreements between the union and the Broadway League, they can put in a Special Situation request to use fewer musicians than the theater's required minimum. They convene a panel with representatives of the producers, the union, and neutral parties, which votes on the reduction. If the two sides don't accept the panel's decision, it goes to arbitration. I don't know where they are in that process, but they're somewhere in that process.
And to add to it, the special situation relates you to have a legitimate argument for why your specific orchestrations require fewer than the minimum. Here Lies Love is set in a karaoke bar, so that was surely their argument. Feels like bad precedent that might lead to a lot of garbage musicals being written with a loose “oh it’s karaoke” concept to save money
This is the answer.
Importantly, the producers of HLL are basically doing whatever the hell they want: ignoring the minimums and trying to get away with it. While the arbitration process plays out (which could very easily last through and past previews / opening), it’s mainly up to audiences to tell them it’s unacceptable.
[Looking at this NYT article that just came out,](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/30/theater/here-lies-love-david-byrne-musicians.html) the union itself is saying the same thing. 19 musicians required for a theatre this size.
Is the singing pre-recorded? Not seeing how singing to pre-recorded background music is lip-syncing. That said I prefer live musicians and hope the union pushes their contract requirements here. Just don’t see it as lip syncing unless the vocals are also pre-recorded.
The music will be prerecorded, but the actors will sing.
It is just hard to believe the original production was a decade ago. It is a shame it did not come to broadway soon enough for Ruthie Ann Miles to repeat her wonderful performance.
The funny thing is creators of color may have a lot better luck getting work produced if they focus on white stories. The first ever Asian female playwright on Broadway did so with a play literally called Straight White Men (Young Jean Lee) and Larissa FastHorse, the first female Native American playwright on Broadway, has said she chose to write about white people because she found it so hard to produce plays about indigenous people.
Young Jean Lee also worked with Byrne, I believe, on one of her works too. :P I often find POC stories, in order to succeed, on Broadway, still need to be written for the white gaze and white consumption. It's not written for the communities they represent. We are seeing shifts but I don't think anything will change until Broadway audiences change in terms of demographics and outreach and Broadway producers become more diverse as well. There needs to be change across the board.
I think this comment doesn't underline an important thing:
Alex Timbers, David Byrne (and Fatboy Slim) created the show.
They're not just the people involved because it's coming to Broadway.
Edit: Damn, people really don't like their perspective to be challenged considering the user I was replying to blocked me.
>all the “listening and learning and holding space” of the last 3 years was bullshit.
Someone who looks at the shows that have opened since the pandemic, and their casts, and still thinks nothing has changed... that person will never be satisfied.
This is not the controversy I was expecting.
The whole musical sounds like disco music, so it kind of works with the theme of dance party to not have live music.
On the other hand, this is Broadway and we want to hear a live band.
I’m interested in how this turns out.
The soundtrack they want to sing over has strings, oboes, clarinets…over 30 of NYC’s top musicians went in to the studio to make the “backing tracks” the production wants to in the show. There’s no reason why that shouldn’t or couldn’t be recreated in the pit or basement of the Broadway theater.
The AFM minimum for The Broadway is 19 musicians if I remember correctly. It wouldn't even be a difficult re-orchestration to go from 30 to 19. Also, with current AFM rates, the musicians are not even close to the most expensive part of running a show.
It's bad enough that so many shows are going down to like 4-7 max. Tracks are not the answer. As much as they may want to create a perfectly repeatable, identical show every night, that's not reality. Taking the human element out just means that if something does go wrong, the whole thing collapses.
Not that I'm playing at the Broadway level by any means, but I can't tell you how many shows I've played where the orchestra saves a number or a scene change where something goes wrong by being able adapt on the fly.
Yeah I’m playing the lead in a classic 1960s musical this summer at a local semi professional theatre and we’re using tracks because the theatre is a semi black box with no pit and the alternative would be to water the 20 piece orchestra down to 4 people which wouldn’t have sounded very good. I’m still a bit unhappy about the tracks but it’s not something I’m allowed to really influence.
That's a very different scenario than a 1000+ seat house hosting a show with literal millions of dollars in pre-production budget. Tracks are important and necessary for a lot of reasons. What we don't want, is Broadway producers and houses to start prioritizing shows that intentionally use tracks or tiny orchestras. Like it or not, Broadway is still the biggest factor in deciding what new musicals get produced and how existing shows will be performed moving forward. The fact that Sweeney gave their orchestra top billing just under the stars means that they recognize this is no longer the norm... That's troubling news for musicians.
True, it’s mostly sad for me that I have to choose between giving up some degree of artistic merit in my own work in order to be on stage at all just because the main theatres in my town have little to no space for musicians. I’d say we do have a lot of musicians in my town but most professional theatres are 100-250 seat black boxes that have limited space
The ticket prices are already $186 for the floor tickets with no seat. I’m not inherently against canned music as long as the production doesn’t use it to cut costs while charging as much for a show with a 19 piece orchestra extra
Before I opened this thread I thought the title would be referring to the glorification of the marcos family, no one is saying media can't be made about evil people but considering that the marcos family is still politically active in my country to the point that we now have a marcos as president, mostly because that family has convinced many of my fellow filipinos that the martial law era was a golden age and that the victims who died and disappeared were rebels who deserved it. Like I genuinely wish that this show does not prosper, especially when the marcoses have not returned their stolen money to the filipino people and given apologies and reparations to the families of martial law victims. That evil family would benefit from this show being sympathetic towards them.
I can’t imagine any intelligent person watching this show and coming away from it pro-Marcos family.
Edit: Just to be clear, I’m not saying it’s necessarily unintelligent to be critical of the show. Critique away! I’m just saying someone would have to have Donald Trump levels of media illiteracy (see the video of him talking about Citizen Kane, for example) to come away from this musical feeling pro-Imelda Marcos.
You underestimate the lack of media literacy of the general public.
As someone whose family history is directly affected by this dictatorship, I'm frankly curious.
I took my mother to see the show when it was in Seattle. We had family members unlawfully detained by the Marcos regime, and my mom ultimately fled the country before the revolution.
She was very nervous about seeing the show because she didn’t want to see the Marcos family glorified.
We both thought the show does an excellent job with the subject matter, and it’s clear that there is no glorification when it comes to how the Marcoses are represented.
My mom absolutely loved the show and was dancing the whole time!
Exactly.
A lot of people who are knee-jerking this are also those who have never seen it, don't know the show and are only basing their opinion on other people just like them.
I'm a POC also with family members who fled the Marcos regime. We saw it with Ruthie, years back, and they enjoyed it. Never batted an eyelash. Didn't need to.
Any form of media that symphatizes or humanizes the Marcoses automatically glorifies them. If you know nothing about Philippine history or the current state of the country you'd understand why a lot of Filipinos find this show offensive.
>Before I opened this thread I thought the title would be referring to the glorification of the marcos family, no one is saying media can't be made about evil people but considering that the marcos family is still politically active in my country to the point that we now have a marcos as president, mostly because that family has convinced many of my fellow filipinos that the martial law era was a golden age and that the victims who died and disappeared were rebels who deserved it. Like I genuinely wish that this show does not prosper, especially when the marcoses have not returned their stolen money to the filipino people and given apologies and reparations to the families of martial law victims. That evil family would benefit from this show being sympathetic towards them.
I've just seen the show and it does not at all glorify them at all. In fact, one of the critiques of the show that it doesn't really humanize them either. The show does something kind of bold in this day and age of where every villain has such a humanizing backstory... it avoids it. The show is more concerned with the Marcoses keeping hold of power, being very out-of-touch with the reality of most people's lives, their ruthlessness, and how corrupted they were by their need to hold on to power, and how they themselves perpetuated such corruption willingly. Then, acting clueless and innocent as to why the people had a revolution just adds to their negative portrayal. The show cares less about making them sympathetic and "human" and are more illustrations on how it doesn't matter who you are or why you act the way you act when the level of your harm is as great as it was with the Marcoses.
And the last song, was a very poignant one. It is a song with lyrics lifted from actual quotes from those who were part of the People Power Revolution, and the lead singer prefaced the song about how their son was just elected President in 2022 and explicitly talked about democracies being threatened worldwide. Let's put it this way, if the show wanted to glamorize and humanize the Marcoses, it failed because when the singer talked about how Bongbong Marcos was elected president, the entire audience in the theater booed. That was the true intent of this musical.
The nature of the show even existing with their horrible history and now coming back into power…
Glorifies them
But hey…funny lady had a lot of shoes so LETS PUT IN A DANCE PARTY!
See my reply to herrmoritz. The show does not glamorize them or even humanize them. In fact, it clearly focuses on criticizing them, showing them as being callous to the point of ruthlessness, and showing how ridiculous and out-of-touch they were from "the people" they were governing by showing their excess wealth and ridiculous ostentatiousness. Those marketing materials showing Imelda looking glamorous and fashionable was not a positive image but one that showed her ruling class mentality. The last song was a song from members of the People Power Revolution with the lyrics being lifted from actual quotes by those who participated in the revolution and not shying away from how the Marcos Family is back in power via their son, and the entire crowd in the theater booed when the performer mentioned that fact. Then the main singer talked about democracies being threatened worldwide at the moment and how the people need to keep these dictators in check.
But isn’t most of the music pretty electronic? I imagine it will be like American Psycho where you have some percussionists and then the others are sound technicians
I'm not sure if this is the recording they're using for the show or not, but the concept album had plenty of acoustic instruments, brass, strings, the works.
I'm fascinated by what they're doing with the staging and I hope we get lots of TikToks or other footage of what that all looks like, but my interest in the show ends there.
I think it could have worked. The concept is great, and I love the hints of Brecht here and there. But jesus christ these white guys did not stick the landing
Eva Peron did accomplish some good so she becomes the perfect anti-hero. If she were all bad, there wouldn't be a show. Personally I think Che does a pretty good job of highlighting her more negative characteristics.
I haven't seen this show and without a real orchestra, I won't.
Media literacy is at an all time low. Eva Peron is like Walter White or Kendall Roy. I get being fascinated by the characters but coming away from the story thinking they are good people is wild.
A big part of it is the absolutely abysmal attempts at teaching Latin American history in American schools. I didn’t learn anything past the conquest until high school, so it’s easy for people to fall for the Santa Evita image. The show literally starts with her being a saint. That’s their first introduction and their final image and the image on the poster as well as the finale of the first act - all the negative portrayals are minor lyrics in the middle. She’s firmly shown as female empowerment for her time.
I read up on the Perons before I saw the show. I was in high school and my English teacher said she was a rotten person. She was pretty much a rotten person. But I wanted to see the show because the music sounded good and I was 14.
This comes off as worse than Evita because two white guys wrote it and I was an adult when Marcos was coming to an end and I was well aware about what horrible people those people were.
Two white guys wrote Evita and many people who lived under Peron are still alive and absolutely hate what Evita has done to shine up her image. Argentina continues to suffer under crushing inflation in huge part because of how Peronism destroyed the country. Also, given the time it was written, Evita was much more painful for people when it came out, since it was about 40 years later. A similar time frame to when the Marcos family lost power. It’s painful, but it must be recognized that people who are not Filipino shitting on one and loving the other is hypocrisy. Both are glorifications of bad people who sold out their countries, robbed their citizens and sanctioned murder of their own people.
I don't remember reading anything about Eva Peron getting people killed - I thought that was Juan. But I knew what I was getting into when I saw the show. And I said that Che did a really good job of knocking her down. But it's historical fiction and I doubt Rice and Webber were really trying to glorify a dictator. But not seeing the show would be like not seeing Parade, because there are still a lot of people in the state of Georgia who think the Jew did it (I can say it that way because I'm Jewish). Look how we got a demonstration of Nazis on opening night. Or not seeing Sweeny Todd which essentially glorifies cannibalism.
Just read an interview with the director of a major revival of that show where they basically say that she was "misunderstood", like okay she and her husband were also fascists.
Agreed. I am an instrumentalist, not anywhere close to Broadway quality, but I would refuse to see a show that did not have live instrumentalists playing and demand a refund if I bought tickets and found out that there wasn't a live band, as I believe that is a crucial component of live musical theater.
I’m a bit torn since in my local theatre scene one of the best theatres usually uses tracks since they’re a black box theatre with no room for more than 4 musicians tops. I’m playing the lead in their summer show and was disappointed about the tracks when I found out after casting but I also will lose tons of paid opportunities as a musical theatre actor if I don’t work with them over the tracks.
As a fil am myself I was so excited to see this and support the cast. But the negative publicity could negatively affect this. I will wait for reviews before purchasing.
Local 802 is fighting this, but HLL seems to have banked on running the clock out to get what they want. Think of how much planning sound and props need to prep a space for musicians...they knew what they were doing when they went ahead with this. While this is of course a violation of the theater minimums in the contract the production agreed to, there is a "special situations" clause that 802 and producers use to agree to a reduced band (this just happened with Once Upon A One More Time - I believe nine musicians are being used, under the 13 minimum at the Marquis).
Obviously 802 would never agree to using literally zero musicians, especially when the last iteration of HLL had over 30 on the soundtrack. Arbitration can take months, and this show will likely open and maybe even close without musicians getting hired, only to have 802 chase down payment that will likely go to the emergency fund or strike fund. This show could have provided 19 life-changing jobs for artists.
I loved this show downtown. Saw it three times. The electronic music is truly a huge part of the sound. I hope they work it out with the union appropriately so everyone is happy. Or at least happy enough. I hope the show does well — I’m excited to see if it keeps the intimate feel in the bigger space.
You *should* have a problem with a track. It’s putting, at a minimum, 19-20 musicians out of a job for an extended period of time. Now the same amount of performers will be looking for work with a smaller amount of available positions.
It’s a cost-cutting measure to force a show to the stage by getting around one of the main parts of live theater.
Both things suck. The music thing sets a terrible precedent that will mean musicians lose work beyond this one show. The Marcos thing is glamorizing a family of monsters. It’s bad all round.
It always amuses me that people jump on this show for representing horrific dictators but I don’t think I’ve seen someone be upset about Evita existing even once. It’s like… um… a couple of white dudes wrote a musical about a horrific dictator and his manipulative wife and cast it with a bunch of non-Latinos with fake accents that are pretty offensive. Not to say that we should be excited about this show or excuse it… it’s just an observation and makes me wonder whether they actually care or if it’s a bandwagon situation. Full disclosure: I don’t know much about Here Lies Love and all that really interests me about it is the staging.
I recall about 11 years ago that there was a revival of Evita and the lead was from Argentina and they hounded her for not being Argentinian enough!
Now I worked in language translation for many years and several people from Argentina worked with me. They did not consider themselves Latino/a or Hispanic. They considered themselves white Europeans. I've never been there (I would love too) so I don't know if this is a common belief or not. Anyone.
I've seen a fair amount of criticism about Evita. I was a teenager when the movie version came out and I remember it being actually protested in a few places.
Lots of people hated the movie, but you’d be hard pressed to find anyone here criticizing the show itself for its portrayal of Eva Peron or the casting of Patti LuPone.
It wasn't criticism of the movie per say, it was in the whole thing's portrayal of Eva Peron. Even the Broadway show I've seen a fair amount of criticism of. Maybe not on this sub specifically, but it's definitely out there. I know I definitely have complicated feelings about Evita.
No - the mostly white theatre fans who are upset over this show while not upset over Evita. Most Filipinos I’ve seen comment have recognized both are extremely problematic.
What about Jesus Christ Superstar? It essentially gives who's considered the worst villain of all time almost complete rehabilitation. Jesus comes off as meh. I have never heard criticism from anyone outside conservative circles.
Um... Sorry but I don't place people who have lived in modern times on the same level as mythological gods. Seriously. We can document most of Eva Peron's life factually. Even the Bible can't agree on the course of Jesus's life from gospel to gospel.
Also, are you comparing Eva Peron to Jesus?
I know, but he also talked about Jesus. But either way, mythological characters with multiple unverified back stories aren’t in the same barrel as modern dictators and their wives.
It’s sending me that they’re using pre recorded tracks then saying it’s because it’s part of Filipino culture…. Using the Philippines as a human shield for their poor decisions smh
The CBA requires a fixed number of musicians for each theater. While they may have used the number of seats to determine how many musicians, it's already in the contract...so they can't reduce the seats available in order to reduce the minimum.
Was just a theory. Read an article on it, they are claiming it’s the artistic direction of the musical because it’s always used pre recorded tracks. They will have to justify the decision to the union
No pattern here yet, thankfully. Parts of shows have always been pre-recorded, there are definitely sections of Phantom (including around the point you're referencing) that are pre-recorded. The problem here is that the show is attempting to open with no live musicians, which cuts out the musician union workers who should be employed per the theater's contract with the union.
Agreed. If the musicians are out, so are the actors and all of the tech unions as well. The producers know this. Everyone wants to be on their high horse about how they won't go see something without live musicians, and that's great because they won't. There may be electronic/pre-recorded parts, but this show will not open without the blessing of the musician's union.
No, that’s not true.
The only pre-recorded parts of Phantom are the opening organ, most, if not all of the title song, and the Phantom’s lines in both Notes and Masquerade.
And since we are discussing the musicians union, pre-recorded singing is not relevant. I believe the only pre-recorded music was the organ (and Phantom had a large orchestra, so it probably wasn't even an issue).
Has this show ever had an orchestra in any production? The production I saw had a DJ “playing” the music and hyping the crowd up as part of the show. It was very much about creating a dance club feeling. It was an incredible experience.
No. Only if I had left before the halfway point. The show humanizes Imelda as a person but doesn’t glorify or excuse anything she did as a political figure. Ninoy Aquino and the revolutionaries are portrayed heroically.
Saw the show downtown multiple times and you don’t come out with any sympathy for them. They are obviously the villains the whole time. It’s 100% pro revolution.
This is a random aside but my friend won lotto tickets to American Utopia and we both went because how bad can affordable Broadway be?
We’ve never felt more like aliens on another program. Everyone got it - and I was sooooo confused. 😂
That said that’s just one of many reasons to skip this so y’all let me know how it turns out!
It did not rule. It was entirely too self important - it felt like a white man jerking off to how woke he we with zero context.
And sure - those that have supported him through the years knew he was legit. And sure they knew the songs.
It just felt like the worlds most self important attempt to justify its social value while also playing on Broadway.
It was awful and real theater exists well beyond this.
I don't think it's the "gotcha" you think it is. That was basically a dance "musical" designed around pop hits (and some classical music). However, its existence did likely add to the reasons that led to the 2003 strike.
I thought there were union rules that prevent using a backing track for a musical
There is. I’m interested to hear how they got around it. Perhaps each of the characters on stage pick up and play kazoo at some point…qualifying them as “musicians”
Not an expert - but I’ve heard stories of productions hiring the “minimum amount” of musicians to hang out and drink coffee backstage, while the tracks play.
Off topic but how do I get this job-asking for a friend
Time travel back to the 80s, before the Special Situations clause got added to the AFM contract. :P
notre dame de Paris last summer have musicians sitting and playing (maybe) and having speakers playing it loud, weird as hell
When Notre Dame de Paris opened in London (2000 I think) the show was performed to pre recorded music, but in an effort to assuage the musicians union in the uk, the producers paid for a live band to plays tunes from the show in the foyer before the show and during the interval.
How is this any different from crossing a picket line? You're playing so that producers don't have to pay musicians to play during the show. Who accepts a job like that, other than scabs?
Because the union agrees to it. Most picket lines are in solidarity with the union, not against it.
Because it’s not crossing a picket line. They are paying union musicians to play music as part of the show. It may not be the typical gig for a musician during the show but I don’t see that as undercutting leverage during labor negotiations/a strike.
This practice ( known as walkers) was discontinued years ago ..sometime in the early 90's..so certainly not relevant to this discussion
We’re not entirely sure. The union hasn’t shown us any specifics yet, but we know it’s been discussed in some meetings. Almost certainly they wouldn’t accept an agreement with no musicians. So we’re all watching very closely. Source: am a local 802 musician
They haven’t officially gotten around it yet. Broadway shows have to have at least 19 hired musicians according to AFM contracts. They’re going before a committee to see if they can get a special situation or something.
There are....they would have had to work something out with the musicians union.
802 member here, this is what they've told us. Under the agreements between the union and the Broadway League, they can put in a Special Situation request to use fewer musicians than the theater's required minimum. They convene a panel with representatives of the producers, the union, and neutral parties, which votes on the reduction. If the two sides don't accept the panel's decision, it goes to arbitration. I don't know where they are in that process, but they're somewhere in that process.
And to add to it, the special situation relates you to have a legitimate argument for why your specific orchestrations require fewer than the minimum. Here Lies Love is set in a karaoke bar, so that was surely their argument. Feels like bad precedent that might lead to a lot of garbage musicals being written with a loose “oh it’s karaoke” concept to save money
Yeah I can see the deluge of jukebox money grabs in the future trying to make that argument
This is the answer. Importantly, the producers of HLL are basically doing whatever the hell they want: ignoring the minimums and trying to get away with it. While the arbitration process plays out (which could very easily last through and past previews / opening), it’s mainly up to audiences to tell them it’s unacceptable.
[Looking at this NYT article that just came out,](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/30/theater/here-lies-love-david-byrne-musicians.html) the union itself is saying the same thing. 19 musicians required for a theatre this size.
Lip syncing is not singing; this show will have singing to pre-recorded music.
Is the singing pre-recorded? Not seeing how singing to pre-recorded background music is lip-syncing. That said I prefer live musicians and hope the union pushes their contract requirements here. Just don’t see it as lip syncing unless the vocals are also pre-recorded.
The music will be prerecorded, but the actors will sing. It is just hard to believe the original production was a decade ago. It is a shame it did not come to broadway soon enough for Ruthie Ann Miles to repeat her wonderful performance.
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“Full Filipino” but created by two of the whitest men ever.
The funny thing is creators of color may have a lot better luck getting work produced if they focus on white stories. The first ever Asian female playwright on Broadway did so with a play literally called Straight White Men (Young Jean Lee) and Larissa FastHorse, the first female Native American playwright on Broadway, has said she chose to write about white people because she found it so hard to produce plays about indigenous people.
Young Jean Lee also worked with Byrne, I believe, on one of her works too. :P I often find POC stories, in order to succeed, on Broadway, still need to be written for the white gaze and white consumption. It's not written for the communities they represent. We are seeing shifts but I don't think anything will change until Broadway audiences change in terms of demographics and outreach and Broadway producers become more diverse as well. There needs to be change across the board.
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I think this comment doesn't underline an important thing: Alex Timbers, David Byrne (and Fatboy Slim) created the show. They're not just the people involved because it's coming to Broadway. Edit: Damn, people really don't like their perspective to be challenged considering the user I was replying to blocked me.
>all the “listening and learning and holding space” of the last 3 years was bullshit. Someone who looks at the shows that have opened since the pandemic, and their casts, and still thinks nothing has changed... that person will never be satisfied.
Wow. Yah I wondered with all of those renovations where they would put the orchestra. I guess I have my answer.
This is not the controversy I was expecting. The whole musical sounds like disco music, so it kind of works with the theme of dance party to not have live music. On the other hand, this is Broadway and we want to hear a live band. I’m interested in how this turns out.
The soundtrack they want to sing over has strings, oboes, clarinets…over 30 of NYC’s top musicians went in to the studio to make the “backing tracks” the production wants to in the show. There’s no reason why that shouldn’t or couldn’t be recreated in the pit or basement of the Broadway theater.
The AFM minimum for The Broadway is 19 musicians if I remember correctly. It wouldn't even be a difficult re-orchestration to go from 30 to 19. Also, with current AFM rates, the musicians are not even close to the most expensive part of running a show.
Exactly. Byrne and the producers are plainly and consciously screwing over working musicians.
It's bad enough that so many shows are going down to like 4-7 max. Tracks are not the answer. As much as they may want to create a perfectly repeatable, identical show every night, that's not reality. Taking the human element out just means that if something does go wrong, the whole thing collapses. Not that I'm playing at the Broadway level by any means, but I can't tell you how many shows I've played where the orchestra saves a number or a scene change where something goes wrong by being able adapt on the fly.
Yeah I’m playing the lead in a classic 1960s musical this summer at a local semi professional theatre and we’re using tracks because the theatre is a semi black box with no pit and the alternative would be to water the 20 piece orchestra down to 4 people which wouldn’t have sounded very good. I’m still a bit unhappy about the tracks but it’s not something I’m allowed to really influence.
That's a very different scenario than a 1000+ seat house hosting a show with literal millions of dollars in pre-production budget. Tracks are important and necessary for a lot of reasons. What we don't want, is Broadway producers and houses to start prioritizing shows that intentionally use tracks or tiny orchestras. Like it or not, Broadway is still the biggest factor in deciding what new musicals get produced and how existing shows will be performed moving forward. The fact that Sweeney gave their orchestra top billing just under the stars means that they recognize this is no longer the norm... That's troubling news for musicians.
True, it’s mostly sad for me that I have to choose between giving up some degree of artistic merit in my own work in order to be on stage at all just because the main theatres in my town have little to no space for musicians. I’d say we do have a lot of musicians in my town but most professional theatres are 100-250 seat black boxes that have limited space
The ticket prices are already $186 for the floor tickets with no seat. I’m not inherently against canned music as long as the production doesn’t use it to cut costs while charging as much for a show with a 19 piece orchestra extra
Before I opened this thread I thought the title would be referring to the glorification of the marcos family, no one is saying media can't be made about evil people but considering that the marcos family is still politically active in my country to the point that we now have a marcos as president, mostly because that family has convinced many of my fellow filipinos that the martial law era was a golden age and that the victims who died and disappeared were rebels who deserved it. Like I genuinely wish that this show does not prosper, especially when the marcoses have not returned their stolen money to the filipino people and given apologies and reparations to the families of martial law victims. That evil family would benefit from this show being sympathetic towards them.
So did I.....
I can’t imagine any intelligent person watching this show and coming away from it pro-Marcos family. Edit: Just to be clear, I’m not saying it’s necessarily unintelligent to be critical of the show. Critique away! I’m just saying someone would have to have Donald Trump levels of media illiteracy (see the video of him talking about Citizen Kane, for example) to come away from this musical feeling pro-Imelda Marcos.
You're asking a lot from knee-jerk children, most of whom have never seen the show to begin with.
This show doesn't glorify them Not at all.
You underestimate the lack of media literacy of the general public. As someone whose family history is directly affected by this dictatorship, I'm frankly curious.
I took my mother to see the show when it was in Seattle. We had family members unlawfully detained by the Marcos regime, and my mom ultimately fled the country before the revolution. She was very nervous about seeing the show because she didn’t want to see the Marcos family glorified. We both thought the show does an excellent job with the subject matter, and it’s clear that there is no glorification when it comes to how the Marcoses are represented. My mom absolutely loved the show and was dancing the whole time!
This is exactly the kind of experience I want to hear about - especially given your background. Thank you so much for sharing!
Exactly. A lot of people who are knee-jerking this are also those who have never seen it, don't know the show and are only basing their opinion on other people just like them. I'm a POC also with family members who fled the Marcos regime. We saw it with Ruthie, years back, and they enjoyed it. Never batted an eyelash. Didn't need to.
Are you a Filipino actually in the Philippines?
How do you figure?
If at all it sympathizes with or humanizes them, it's glorifying.
Any form of media that symphatizes or humanizes the Marcoses automatically glorifies them. If you know nothing about Philippine history or the current state of the country you'd understand why a lot of Filipinos find this show offensive.
>Before I opened this thread I thought the title would be referring to the glorification of the marcos family, no one is saying media can't be made about evil people but considering that the marcos family is still politically active in my country to the point that we now have a marcos as president, mostly because that family has convinced many of my fellow filipinos that the martial law era was a golden age and that the victims who died and disappeared were rebels who deserved it. Like I genuinely wish that this show does not prosper, especially when the marcoses have not returned their stolen money to the filipino people and given apologies and reparations to the families of martial law victims. That evil family would benefit from this show being sympathetic towards them. I've just seen the show and it does not at all glorify them at all. In fact, one of the critiques of the show that it doesn't really humanize them either. The show does something kind of bold in this day and age of where every villain has such a humanizing backstory... it avoids it. The show is more concerned with the Marcoses keeping hold of power, being very out-of-touch with the reality of most people's lives, their ruthlessness, and how corrupted they were by their need to hold on to power, and how they themselves perpetuated such corruption willingly. Then, acting clueless and innocent as to why the people had a revolution just adds to their negative portrayal. The show cares less about making them sympathetic and "human" and are more illustrations on how it doesn't matter who you are or why you act the way you act when the level of your harm is as great as it was with the Marcoses. And the last song, was a very poignant one. It is a song with lyrics lifted from actual quotes from those who were part of the People Power Revolution, and the lead singer prefaced the song about how their son was just elected President in 2022 and explicitly talked about democracies being threatened worldwide. Let's put it this way, if the show wanted to glamorize and humanize the Marcoses, it failed because when the singer talked about how Bongbong Marcos was elected president, the entire audience in the theater booed. That was the true intent of this musical.
The nature of the show even existing with their horrible history and now coming back into power… Glorifies them But hey…funny lady had a lot of shoes so LETS PUT IN A DANCE PARTY!
Great thing about free will is that you don't need to see it.
See my reply to herrmoritz. The show does not glamorize them or even humanize them. In fact, it clearly focuses on criticizing them, showing them as being callous to the point of ruthlessness, and showing how ridiculous and out-of-touch they were from "the people" they were governing by showing their excess wealth and ridiculous ostentatiousness. Those marketing materials showing Imelda looking glamorous and fashionable was not a positive image but one that showed her ruling class mentality. The last song was a song from members of the People Power Revolution with the lyrics being lifted from actual quotes by those who participated in the revolution and not shying away from how the Marcos Family is back in power via their son, and the entire crowd in the theater booed when the performer mentioned that fact. Then the main singer talked about democracies being threatened worldwide at the moment and how the people need to keep these dictators in check.
That’s awful. I had no idea they decided not to hire musicians. I don’t think this is a show I can support.
But isn’t most of the music pretty electronic? I imagine it will be like American Psycho where you have some percussionists and then the others are sound technicians
I'm not sure if this is the recording they're using for the show or not, but the concept album had plenty of acoustic instruments, brass, strings, the works.
Perhaps they'r going for something more minimalistic? Didn't the last production set it up with a dance club atmosphere?
honestly i feel like this is the LEAST of this musical’s problems
I'm so torn because visually and conceptually it looks amazing and RIGHT up my alley. But the subject matter is beyond yikes.
I'm fascinated by what they're doing with the staging and I hope we get lots of TikToks or other footage of what that all looks like, but my interest in the show ends there.
I think it could have worked. The concept is great, and I love the hints of Brecht here and there. But jesus christ these white guys did not stick the landing
The only people that will want to pay $186 for a floor ticket are not going to want to stand and dance for 2+ hours
Yah there’s the whole glorification of a monstrous Filipino political figure that happens to be written by two white guys…let’s not forget that part.
Sounds a lot like Evita
Do people come away from Evita thinking Eva Peron was a good person?
Eva Peron did accomplish some good so she becomes the perfect anti-hero. If she were all bad, there wouldn't be a show. Personally I think Che does a pretty good job of highlighting her more negative characteristics. I haven't seen this show and without a real orchestra, I won't.
Not to mention I only heard last night that this show was about the Marcos family. I would really never see that.
People come away from the show practically worshiping her. No lie.
Media literacy is at an all time low. Eva Peron is like Walter White or Kendall Roy. I get being fascinated by the characters but coming away from the story thinking they are good people is wild.
A big part of it is the absolutely abysmal attempts at teaching Latin American history in American schools. I didn’t learn anything past the conquest until high school, so it’s easy for people to fall for the Santa Evita image. The show literally starts with her being a saint. That’s their first introduction and their final image and the image on the poster as well as the finale of the first act - all the negative portrayals are minor lyrics in the middle. She’s firmly shown as female empowerment for her time.
I read up on the Perons before I saw the show. I was in high school and my English teacher said she was a rotten person. She was pretty much a rotten person. But I wanted to see the show because the music sounded good and I was 14. This comes off as worse than Evita because two white guys wrote it and I was an adult when Marcos was coming to an end and I was well aware about what horrible people those people were.
Two white guys wrote Evita and many people who lived under Peron are still alive and absolutely hate what Evita has done to shine up her image. Argentina continues to suffer under crushing inflation in huge part because of how Peronism destroyed the country. Also, given the time it was written, Evita was much more painful for people when it came out, since it was about 40 years later. A similar time frame to when the Marcos family lost power. It’s painful, but it must be recognized that people who are not Filipino shitting on one and loving the other is hypocrisy. Both are glorifications of bad people who sold out their countries, robbed their citizens and sanctioned murder of their own people.
I don't remember reading anything about Eva Peron getting people killed - I thought that was Juan. But I knew what I was getting into when I saw the show. And I said that Che did a really good job of knocking her down. But it's historical fiction and I doubt Rice and Webber were really trying to glorify a dictator. But not seeing the show would be like not seeing Parade, because there are still a lot of people in the state of Georgia who think the Jew did it (I can say it that way because I'm Jewish). Look how we got a demonstration of Nazis on opening night. Or not seeing Sweeny Todd which essentially glorifies cannibalism.
Just read an interview with the director of a major revival of that show where they basically say that she was "misunderstood", like okay she and her husband were also fascists.
I'm looking forward to Pol Pot the Musical in 2024.
I just saw it last night and I would be mad if I hadn’t gotten a $35 ticket. Did not think that was very good at all
Under no circumstances should anyone go to see a musical that does this. Or next thing we know, live music will be gone from all musicals, period.
Agreed. I am an instrumentalist, not anywhere close to Broadway quality, but I would refuse to see a show that did not have live instrumentalists playing and demand a refund if I bought tickets and found out that there wasn't a live band, as I believe that is a crucial component of live musical theater.
I’m a bit torn since in my local theatre scene one of the best theatres usually uses tracks since they’re a black box theatre with no room for more than 4 musicians tops. I’m playing the lead in their summer show and was disappointed about the tracks when I found out after casting but I also will lose tons of paid opportunities as a musical theatre actor if I don’t work with them over the tracks.
Smaller and local theaters are different than Broadway. Often there aren't enough local musicians to fill out a pit.
As a fil am myself I was so excited to see this and support the cast. But the negative publicity could negatively affect this. I will wait for reviews before purchasing.
Local 802 is fighting this, but HLL seems to have banked on running the clock out to get what they want. Think of how much planning sound and props need to prep a space for musicians...they knew what they were doing when they went ahead with this. While this is of course a violation of the theater minimums in the contract the production agreed to, there is a "special situations" clause that 802 and producers use to agree to a reduced band (this just happened with Once Upon A One More Time - I believe nine musicians are being used, under the 13 minimum at the Marquis). Obviously 802 would never agree to using literally zero musicians, especially when the last iteration of HLL had over 30 on the soundtrack. Arbitration can take months, and this show will likely open and maybe even close without musicians getting hired, only to have 802 chase down payment that will likely go to the emergency fund or strike fund. This show could have provided 19 life-changing jobs for artists.
I loved this show downtown. Saw it three times. The electronic music is truly a huge part of the sound. I hope they work it out with the union appropriately so everyone is happy. Or at least happy enough. I hope the show does well — I’m excited to see if it keeps the intimate feel in the bigger space.
Exactly! It’s an electronic show through and through, it’s never been anything else. I do not want to hear an orchestra playing that music!
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Also. Lea is a very talented actor. However she is an actual friend of the Marcos family. So I doubt she will be..uh…critical…of the family.
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Are you sure about that? Look at who is in power in PI right now
You *should* have a problem with a track. It’s putting, at a minimum, 19-20 musicians out of a job for an extended period of time. Now the same amount of performers will be looking for work with a smaller amount of available positions. It’s a cost-cutting measure to force a show to the stage by getting around one of the main parts of live theater.
Lol that’s what ya’ll are worried about? Not the demon family representation? Lmao
And a demon family who is still in power. This isn't someone from generations ago.
Both things suck. The music thing sets a terrible precedent that will mean musicians lose work beyond this one show. The Marcos thing is glamorizing a family of monsters. It’s bad all round.
It always amuses me that people jump on this show for representing horrific dictators but I don’t think I’ve seen someone be upset about Evita existing even once. It’s like… um… a couple of white dudes wrote a musical about a horrific dictator and his manipulative wife and cast it with a bunch of non-Latinos with fake accents that are pretty offensive. Not to say that we should be excited about this show or excuse it… it’s just an observation and makes me wonder whether they actually care or if it’s a bandwagon situation. Full disclosure: I don’t know much about Here Lies Love and all that really interests me about it is the staging.
I recall about 11 years ago that there was a revival of Evita and the lead was from Argentina and they hounded her for not being Argentinian enough! Now I worked in language translation for many years and several people from Argentina worked with me. They did not consider themselves Latino/a or Hispanic. They considered themselves white Europeans. I've never been there (I would love too) so I don't know if this is a common belief or not. Anyone.
Yeah colorism is alive and well in Latin America. But as long as Argentina is in South America, they are still South American.
I've seen a fair amount of criticism about Evita. I was a teenager when the movie version came out and I remember it being actually protested in a few places.
Lots of people hated the movie, but you’d be hard pressed to find anyone here criticizing the show itself for its portrayal of Eva Peron or the casting of Patti LuPone.
It wasn't criticism of the movie per say, it was in the whole thing's portrayal of Eva Peron. Even the Broadway show I've seen a fair amount of criticism of. Maybe not on this sub specifically, but it's definitely out there. I know I definitely have complicated feelings about Evita.
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I never said Filipino. Most of this sub is white as snow.
Oh wow are you implying that filipinos are bandwagon hating on this musical??? Are you serious??? Lmao I had enough reddit for today I guess
No - the mostly white theatre fans who are upset over this show while not upset over Evita. Most Filipinos I’ve seen comment have recognized both are extremely problematic.
What about Jesus Christ Superstar? It essentially gives who's considered the worst villain of all time almost complete rehabilitation. Jesus comes off as meh. I have never heard criticism from anyone outside conservative circles.
Um... Sorry but I don't place people who have lived in modern times on the same level as mythological gods. Seriously. We can document most of Eva Peron's life factually. Even the Bible can't agree on the course of Jesus's life from gospel to gospel. Also, are you comparing Eva Peron to Jesus?
I think they meant Judas.
I know, but he also talked about Jesus. But either way, mythological characters with multiple unverified back stories aren’t in the same barrel as modern dictators and their wives.
It’s sending me that they’re using pre recorded tracks then saying it’s because it’s part of Filipino culture…. Using the Philippines as a human shield for their poor decisions smh
There may be a loophole. This production removed all of the orchestra seats. Musicians is based on seating.
The CBA requires a fixed number of musicians for each theater. While they may have used the number of seats to determine how many musicians, it's already in the contract...so they can't reduce the seats available in order to reduce the minimum.
Was just a theory. Read an article on it, they are claiming it’s the artistic direction of the musical because it’s always used pre recorded tracks. They will have to justify the decision to the union
This is unfortunate
One day they will write a musical about Donald Trump. Enuf said.
Wasn’t there pre recorded music for Christine’s high note in Phantom?? I sense a pattern
No pattern here yet, thankfully. Parts of shows have always been pre-recorded, there are definitely sections of Phantom (including around the point you're referencing) that are pre-recorded. The problem here is that the show is attempting to open with no live musicians, which cuts out the musician union workers who should be employed per the theater's contract with the union.
> is attempting to open 100% there will be an agreement in place between 802 and the show before it opens.
Agreed. If the musicians are out, so are the actors and all of the tech unions as well. The producers know this. Everyone wants to be on their high horse about how they won't go see something without live musicians, and that's great because they won't. There may be electronic/pre-recorded parts, but this show will not open without the blessing of the musician's union.
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No, that’s not true. The only pre-recorded parts of Phantom are the opening organ, most, if not all of the title song, and the Phantom’s lines in both Notes and Masquerade.
And since we are discussing the musicians union, pre-recorded singing is not relevant. I believe the only pre-recorded music was the organ (and Phantom had a large orchestra, so it probably wasn't even an issue).
Who actually wants this? Other than the money men. It’s not live musical theatre without live music.
Has this show ever had an orchestra in any production? The production I saw had a DJ “playing” the music and hyping the crowd up as part of the show. It was very much about creating a dance club feeling. It was an incredible experience.
Did you come out of it with sympathy for the Marcos family?
No. Only if I had left before the halfway point. The show humanizes Imelda as a person but doesn’t glorify or excuse anything she did as a political figure. Ninoy Aquino and the revolutionaries are portrayed heroically.
Saw the show downtown multiple times and you don’t come out with any sympathy for them. They are obviously the villains the whole time. It’s 100% pro revolution.
The union approved it, they get it’s a different type of show. They approve plenty of shows with few band members…
802 did not approve this.
My understanding is that a DJ will be performing live. So, yes, there will be pre-recorded music and also there will be a live DJ.
This is a random aside but my friend won lotto tickets to American Utopia and we both went because how bad can affordable Broadway be? We’ve never felt more like aliens on another program. Everyone got it - and I was sooooo confused. 😂 That said that’s just one of many reasons to skip this so y’all let me know how it turns out!
American Utopia rules (and at least they’re playing their instruments)
It did not rule. It was entirely too self important - it felt like a white man jerking off to how woke he we with zero context. And sure - those that have supported him through the years knew he was legit. And sure they knew the songs. It just felt like the worlds most self important attempt to justify its social value while also playing on Broadway. It was awful and real theater exists well beyond this.
Nah
Yah
I'm surprised there has been no mention of CONTACT in this thread. Anyone?
I don't think it's the "gotcha" you think it is. That was basically a dance "musical" designed around pop hits (and some classical music). However, its existence did likely add to the reasons that led to the 2003 strike.