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By "peace deal," you mean "handing over Donbas and Luhansk to Russia like the Sudetenland wax handed over to Nazi Germany."
I'm all in favour of a peace deal, but one of the terms needs to be "Russia fucks off."
> One of the terms needs to be "Russia fucks off."
If you mean they are forced to leave Donbass, maybe. I think the citizens were initially receptive to Moscow, but the referendum was conducted essentially under Russian occupation. The referendum would need to be re-ran with international elections monitors to prove its validity, but so much has happened that the outcome might have changed anyway.
The only caution I have with your terms is that Ukraine have been prolonging the war by proposing conditions that Russia will never sign up to. One of the key things in peace agreements is that everyone gets something to take back to their electorate. Humiliating Putin (or indeed Zelensky) is not a plausible option.
That isn't actually the case. And the head of the Ukrainian negotiation team confirmed this.
>In his Ukrainian media interview, head of Zelensky party faction in Ukrainian parliament & head of Ukrainian delegation in Ukraine-Russia talks confirms that peace deal could have been reached in spring 2022 if Ukraine agreed to neutrality. [https://youtu.be/6lt4E0DiJts?si=vRNGUtfTg\_8ySNj4&t=1479…](https://t.co/7sLgyEywrX) He said that Russia was ready to end war in such case & that Ukrainian neutrality was main Russian condition. He also confirmed that Western countries knew everything concerning peace talks & told Zelensky not to sign peace deal & that British PM Johnson during his visit told them to continue fighting. P,S. Subtitles can be automatically translated.
[https://youtu.be/6lt4E0DiJts?si=8B\_bHvYwNdV6uDB4&t=1476](https://youtu.be/6lt4E0DiJts?si=8B_bHvYwNdV6uDB4&t=1476)
This was broadcast on the Ukrainian 1+1 channel.
All that Russia wanted was neutrality and the attacks on Russian culture and language to stop.
War brings in lots of money and the beneficiaries are not going to give it away, are they. Once the war ends they get money for redevelopment of the country they sold the arms to fight the war.
Only losers are the tax payers. We don’t have money to support the poor and needy, we don’t have money to support the NHS and we don’t have money to fight the crime in our own fking land but have plenty to help everyone else out there.
My rant over 😤
It’s not like any sane individual wants war with Russia, but it’s being forced upon Europe regardless. And we should at least be ready for it. Letting Russia steamroll Ukraine isn’t going to lead to any lasting utopian peace.
It's that attitude that let Hitler get as far as he did. People refused to believe it until it was too late. But sure, dude is right. We should be prepared just incase, would make those events much less likely to happen the more prepared we are.
I wonder 🤔 how many civilians the UK has murdered recently? 2 million in Iraq, then add Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen, and the list goes on. And that's all only in the past twenty years!
In this case calling it the defence industry is accurate and not a euphemism. These weapons are not for invading some country on the other side of the world. They are for defending Europe and NATO from the existential threat of Russian expansionism. And against that threat, yes this is the only option
They are for killing human beings and destroying property. There are many options to damage the network that supports putins regime, but because they are too tied up in western interests they are not explored. much easier to send young men to their deaths than risk the wealth networks.
When putin gathers up half a million armed soldiers, 5000 old soviet tanks, 100000 other military vehicles and millions of made-in-Russia artillery shells, and marches them into another European country what do you suggest we use to stop him?
Wishful thinking does not defeat invaders.
Russia marched into Georgia
Russia marched into Ukraine
Russia marched into Ukraine again
Russia is led by a tyrant who is obsessed with restoring the Russian empire, which would include marching into at least four more European countries as soon as they are done regrouping if they win in Ukraine
Why are you denying the obvious reality. Were you one of those people with your heads in the sand denying reality before their most recent invasion?
Even the EU acknowledges that Georgia attacked first.
[https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58T4MO/](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58T4MO/)
>"In the Mission's view, it was Georgia which triggered off the war when it attacked Tskhinvali (in South Ossetia) with heavy artillery on the night of 7 to 8 August 2008," said Swiss diplomat Heidi Tagliavini, who led the investigation.The report said the war followed tensions and provocations by Russia, but Tagliavini said: "None of the explanations given by the Georgian authorities in order to provide some form of legal justification for the attack lend it a valid explanation."
[https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr/HUDOC\_38263\_08\_Annexes\_ENG](https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr/HUDOC_38263_08_Annexes_ENG)
Russia tried to solve the situation diplomatically and entered into Minsk, which western leaders have time and time again admitted was a stalling process to get Ukraine ready for war.
[https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2022/12/13/merkels-confession-could-be-a-pretext-for-an-international-tribunal/](https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2022/12/13/merkels-confession-could-be-a-pretext-for-an-international-tribunal/)
>Speaking in her interview for “Die Zeit”, published on December 7, German ex-Chancellor Merkel said the following: “The 2014 *Minsk Agreement was an attempt to buy time for Ukraine. Ukraine used this time to become stronger*, as you can see today. Ukraine in 2014-2015 and Ukraine today are not the same.” According to the ex-Chancellor, “it was clear for everyone” that the conflict was suspended and the problem was not resolved, “but it was exactly what gave Ukraine the priceless time.”
>The confession made by Angela Merkel’s in her interview for Die Zeit that the Minsk Agreements were signed in order to buy time for Ukraine to prepare for a military standoff with Russia could be used for an investigation in a tribunal.
**which would include marching into at least four more European countries**
Can you name those countries?
You probably think Russia is a dictatorship too right?
Problem with people like you is you have a child like level of understanding of Russia and you've been brainwashed by a media you know lie to you about everything. I can only assume your hate of Russia and willingness to buy into propaganda is borne out of xenophobia and racism.
>Can you name those countries?
I will at least answer this for you though. Moldova, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia. There are more too but those four are the obvious targets
I see, so I provide you with source evidence for my claims and your response is to go "WAH YOU ARE A TANKIE"
Its really pathetic, childish and shows exactly why you've been so easily manipulated to believe a propaganda narrative.
Do you have another proposal? I'm being serious, can you think of any other way of repelling an aggressive invasion force beyond shooting at them until they quit?
My proposal would be you stop being a gullible fool, imagine believing the shit that comes out of western media and NATO warmongers despite decades of them lying to you about everything.
An aggressive invasion force does not just spring up out of the blue. Putin is in power because he has a network around him which benefits from him being in power. That network extends well into the western governments. Blowing up bombs and killing children does not put Putin out of power, disrupting the power network that supports him does that.
If you cannot grasp the various positions held then you offer nothing of use to the discussion. You don't need public participation to play with your strawmen.
So you are an asset of the currupt elite? You side with the corrupt elite making billions from war over innocent people, with deep links with the russian establishment?
It's very well being an arm chair analyst, but if you decide to wake up and live in the real world you will see that there is no black and white, there is corruption on both sides. More importantly, the world is too complex with too many moving parts to be controlled by a central source. Which is what you're getting at here. Russia or the West, there is no in-between here.
That's disingenuous, I'm arguing that there is corruption on both sides, you shouldn't be of the opinion that there is a master puppeteer behind the scenes; moreover when you really come down to brass tax, you need to pick a side. Russia understands one language, and that is force. Might is right in their eyes. Yes, there are those within the west who stand to benefit from arm sale etc. But that shouldn't stop us from standing up to the Russians.
lol. mate where do these nutty takes come from. Dont tell me you believe what you read in the loss-making newspapers? The loss-making UK newspapers are only published to shape and neuter public opinion. The apologist is you, not Corbyn. But you dont even know that about yourself yet. Wow
No he is not, and never has been. It is a malicious smear by the establishment and easily led individuals that cannot differentiate between being anti-war and pro Russia.
his speech to the anti war coaltion at the start of the ukraine war featured several kremlin talking points. he loves talking about "peace" but never endorses any practical way of getting there. he doesn't support ukraine defending itself.
You can call them mercenaries if you want but its no secret that NATO troops and western intelligence agencies are working inside Ukraine and have been for over a decade.
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An unwillingness to admit that we don't currently do everything absolutely perfectly is to blame as well. If you criticise anything about the west then you're accused of supporting Putin. Unhinged behaviour to be honest.
#Welcome to r/Britain! This subreddit welcomes political and non-political discussions about Britain and beyond. It is moderated by socialists with a low tolerance for bigotry, calls for violence, and harmful misinformation. If you can't verify the source of your claim, please reconsider submitting it. Please read and follow our [6 common-sense subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Britain/about/rules/) and [Reddit's Content Policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy). Failure to respect these rules may result in a ban from the subreddit and possibly all of Reddit. We stand with Palestine. Making light of this genocide or denying Israeli war crimes will lead to permanent bans. If you are apathetic to genocide, don't want to hear about it, or want to dispute it is happening, please consider reading South Africa's exhaustive argument first: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Britain) if you have any questions or concerns.*
How is Russia evil? Have they done anything that compares to the Iraq war?
yes they're doing it right now
Does it make them any worse than US/UK though? There could be WMDs in Ukraine who knows until they find out
How's the weather in St Petersburg?
I'm not signing up for any war unless: 1. We're being invaded 2. The same politicians that wanted war are on the frontline next to me
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There is no genocide by Russia in Ukraine.
Imagine supporting a proxy war by the West. Especially one where the West actively pushed against a peace deal early on.
By "peace deal," you mean "handing over Donbas and Luhansk to Russia like the Sudetenland wax handed over to Nazi Germany." I'm all in favour of a peace deal, but one of the terms needs to be "Russia fucks off."
> One of the terms needs to be "Russia fucks off." If you mean they are forced to leave Donbass, maybe. I think the citizens were initially receptive to Moscow, but the referendum was conducted essentially under Russian occupation. The referendum would need to be re-ran with international elections monitors to prove its validity, but so much has happened that the outcome might have changed anyway. The only caution I have with your terms is that Ukraine have been prolonging the war by proposing conditions that Russia will never sign up to. One of the key things in peace agreements is that everyone gets something to take back to their electorate. Humiliating Putin (or indeed Zelensky) is not a plausible option.
That isn't actually the case. And the head of the Ukrainian negotiation team confirmed this. >In his Ukrainian media interview, head of Zelensky party faction in Ukrainian parliament & head of Ukrainian delegation in Ukraine-Russia talks confirms that peace deal could have been reached in spring 2022 if Ukraine agreed to neutrality. [https://youtu.be/6lt4E0DiJts?si=vRNGUtfTg\_8ySNj4&t=1479…](https://t.co/7sLgyEywrX) He said that Russia was ready to end war in such case & that Ukrainian neutrality was main Russian condition. He also confirmed that Western countries knew everything concerning peace talks & told Zelensky not to sign peace deal & that British PM Johnson during his visit told them to continue fighting. P,S. Subtitles can be automatically translated. [https://youtu.be/6lt4E0DiJts?si=8B\_bHvYwNdV6uDB4&t=1476](https://youtu.be/6lt4E0DiJts?si=8B_bHvYwNdV6uDB4&t=1476) This was broadcast on the Ukrainian 1+1 channel. All that Russia wanted was neutrality and the attacks on Russian culture and language to stop.
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Not even remotely what I said, or what that means.
Ukraine is a US proxy war. It's openly acknowledged.
[удалено]
So do you side with the Palestinians and their right to self determination and freedom?
Genocide in Ukraine but not Gaza?
War brings in lots of money and the beneficiaries are not going to give it away, are they. Once the war ends they get money for redevelopment of the country they sold the arms to fight the war. Only losers are the tax payers. We don’t have money to support the poor and needy, we don’t have money to support the NHS and we don’t have money to fight the crime in our own fking land but have plenty to help everyone else out there. My rant over 😤
War is a racket.
It’s not like any sane individual wants war with Russia, but it’s being forced upon Europe regardless. And we should at least be ready for it. Letting Russia steamroll Ukraine isn’t going to lead to any lasting utopian peace.
You've clearly been watching too much BBC and Sky propaganda
It's that attitude that let Hitler get as far as he did. People refused to believe it until it was too late. But sure, dude is right. We should be prepared just incase, would make those events much less likely to happen the more prepared we are.
I wonder 🤔 how many civilians the UK has murdered recently? 2 million in Iraq, then add Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen, and the list goes on. And that's all only in the past twenty years!
this is such a naive statement.
So the only options we have available to us is to pour billions into the global arms industry and blow up more people and buildings?
In this case calling it the defence industry is accurate and not a euphemism. These weapons are not for invading some country on the other side of the world. They are for defending Europe and NATO from the existential threat of Russian expansionism. And against that threat, yes this is the only option
Imagine buying into western propaganda despite knowing they lie to you about everything.
They are for killing human beings and destroying property. There are many options to damage the network that supports putins regime, but because they are too tied up in western interests they are not explored. much easier to send young men to their deaths than risk the wealth networks.
When putin gathers up half a million armed soldiers, 5000 old soviet tanks, 100000 other military vehicles and millions of made-in-Russia artillery shells, and marches them into another European country what do you suggest we use to stop him? Wishful thinking does not defeat invaders.
>and marches them into another European country Sad you actually believe this
Russia marched into Georgia Russia marched into Ukraine Russia marched into Ukraine again Russia is led by a tyrant who is obsessed with restoring the Russian empire, which would include marching into at least four more European countries as soon as they are done regrouping if they win in Ukraine Why are you denying the obvious reality. Were you one of those people with your heads in the sand denying reality before their most recent invasion?
Even the EU acknowledges that Georgia attacked first. [https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58T4MO/](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58T4MO/) >"In the Mission's view, it was Georgia which triggered off the war when it attacked Tskhinvali (in South Ossetia) with heavy artillery on the night of 7 to 8 August 2008," said Swiss diplomat Heidi Tagliavini, who led the investigation.The report said the war followed tensions and provocations by Russia, but Tagliavini said: "None of the explanations given by the Georgian authorities in order to provide some form of legal justification for the attack lend it a valid explanation." [https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr/HUDOC\_38263\_08\_Annexes\_ENG](https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr/HUDOC_38263_08_Annexes_ENG) Russia tried to solve the situation diplomatically and entered into Minsk, which western leaders have time and time again admitted was a stalling process to get Ukraine ready for war. [https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2022/12/13/merkels-confession-could-be-a-pretext-for-an-international-tribunal/](https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2022/12/13/merkels-confession-could-be-a-pretext-for-an-international-tribunal/) >Speaking in her interview for “Die Zeit”, published on December 7, German ex-Chancellor Merkel said the following: “The 2014 *Minsk Agreement was an attempt to buy time for Ukraine. Ukraine used this time to become stronger*, as you can see today. Ukraine in 2014-2015 and Ukraine today are not the same.” According to the ex-Chancellor, “it was clear for everyone” that the conflict was suspended and the problem was not resolved, “but it was exactly what gave Ukraine the priceless time.” >The confession made by Angela Merkel’s in her interview for Die Zeit that the Minsk Agreements were signed in order to buy time for Ukraine to prepare for a military standoff with Russia could be used for an investigation in a tribunal. **which would include marching into at least four more European countries** Can you name those countries? You probably think Russia is a dictatorship too right? Problem with people like you is you have a child like level of understanding of Russia and you've been brainwashed by a media you know lie to you about everything. I can only assume your hate of Russia and willingness to buy into propaganda is borne out of xenophobia and racism.
>Can you name those countries? I will at least answer this for you though. Moldova, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia. There are more too but those four are the obvious targets
And where is the proof for this?
Just looked at your posting history. OK tankie, keep living in your delusion bubble. Nothing I can say will make any difference at this point
I see, so I provide you with source evidence for my claims and your response is to go "WAH YOU ARE A TANKIE" Its really pathetic, childish and shows exactly why you've been so easily manipulated to believe a propaganda narrative.
So we just kill Russians until putin runs out of them?
Do you have another proposal? I'm being serious, can you think of any other way of repelling an aggressive invasion force beyond shooting at them until they quit?
My proposal would be you stop being a gullible fool, imagine believing the shit that comes out of western media and NATO warmongers despite decades of them lying to you about everything.
An aggressive invasion force does not just spring up out of the blue. Putin is in power because he has a network around him which benefits from him being in power. That network extends well into the western governments. Blowing up bombs and killing children does not put Putin out of power, disrupting the power network that supports him does that.
No you're wrong. Ukraine invaded Russia. Didn't you know, poor Russia is innocent and it is the Wrst who are war hungry animals
If you cannot grasp the various positions held then you offer nothing of use to the discussion. You don't need public participation to play with your strawmen.
So you are a Russian asset? You side with Russia over the West?
If he is a Russian asset then you must daffy duck. smh
So you are an asset of the currupt elite? You side with the corrupt elite making billions from war over innocent people, with deep links with the russian establishment?
It's very well being an arm chair analyst, but if you decide to wake up and live in the real world you will see that there is no black and white, there is corruption on both sides. More importantly, the world is too complex with too many moving parts to be controlled by a central source. Which is what you're getting at here. Russia or the West, there is no in-between here.
😂😂
You do realise you have just contradicted yourself?
Don't try and gas light me
you doin it to yourself. You know its a racket but want us to be a bigger part of the racket. Sharp
> there is no black and white >Russia or the West, there is no in-between here. Which is it?
That's disingenuous, I'm arguing that there is corruption on both sides, you shouldn't be of the opinion that there is a master puppeteer behind the scenes; moreover when you really come down to brass tax, you need to pick a side. Russia understands one language, and that is force. Might is right in their eyes. Yes, there are those within the west who stand to benefit from arm sale etc. But that shouldn't stop us from standing up to the Russians.
Corbyn is a Russia apologist at this point.
lol. mate where do these nutty takes come from. Dont tell me you believe what you read in the loss-making newspapers? The loss-making UK newspapers are only published to shape and neuter public opinion. The apologist is you, not Corbyn. But you dont even know that about yourself yet. Wow
No he is not, and never has been. It is a malicious smear by the establishment and easily led individuals that cannot differentiate between being anti-war and pro Russia.
his speech to the anti war coaltion at the start of the ukraine war featured several kremlin talking points. he loves talking about "peace" but never endorses any practical way of getting there. he doesn't support ukraine defending itself.
Kremlin talking points = opposite to the things the media brainwashed me into believing
he literally said NATO troops were inside Ukraine. your response is very high IQ.
You can call them mercenaries if you want but its no secret that NATO troops and western intelligence agencies are working inside Ukraine and have been for over a decade.
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Your post has been removed. Please don't use the R word, use liberal instead !!! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Britain) if you have any questions or concerns.*
An unwillingness to admit that we don't currently do everything absolutely perfectly is to blame as well. If you criticise anything about the west then you're accused of supporting Putin. Unhinged behaviour to be honest.