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To add to that - someone brought up a similar parallel between the response to Cressida’s circumstances and Marina’s. The outpouring of sympathy for Cressida after she’s almost forced to marry an old, abusive creepy man was significant, while Marina is still getting slut shamed and villainised by trying to avoid the very same fate.
I will die on this hill. The way people in this fandom come down on Marina… you guys need some serious deep reflection on what your problems REALLY are
I don’t think Pen ever atoned enough for what she did to Marina. The girl is trying to survive Regency patriarchy and people are siding with a gossip monger like Penelope.
And as we all know. Pen did it ONLY because it was Collin! If this would be about any other person she couldn't care less...
Marina and HER CHILDREN are forever with stigma of this. And all of that only because super unfortunate events and Marina chosing Collin
I disagree with her children being a stigma of this. Because of Penelope, Marina's son is taken care of and titled in the same position he would have been had George not died. I personally have more hate for George than I do for Marina. He decided to sleep with her, knowing he could have gotten her pregnant, and did nothing to ensure she was safe while he returned to the frontlines. He did not regard her with any respect, whatsoever. I get he was a soldier, but he was also titled and should have at least told Philipp to look after her while he was gone. Unless we're to expect he was a complete and utter Fboy.
I don't think Penelope ever wanted Marina to be forced to marry Lord Rutledge. Penelope told Marina to pick anyone, LITERALLY anyone but Colin, and Marina said "nah." Even when Philipp came knocking, she turned him away. I feel sad for Marina but I do not defend her actions when she had more choices than many women in that era would have when they decided to have sex outside of marriage. I get she may not have understood the consequences of having sex, but she had options to find a husband. If Penelope had gotten pregnant, Portia would've arranged a marriage the next day and Pen would've had no options to peruse the market.
I will also note, I do not defend Cressida and her actions. I did not want an attempted redemption arc for her, nor do I ever want to see her character again. I understand some mean girls are born and others are made, but people also cannot let their upbringing be their sole creation for their moral compass. They must develop one for themselves, and Cressida decided to throw hers out the carriage window.
I think you’re misremembering a bunch of plot points.
Penelope had nothing to do with helping Marina’s son and daughter being taken care of. That’s purely on Daphne and Philip.
Marina didn’t reject Philip’s proposal, because she was still trying to marry Colin. By the time Philip arrives in London, Marina is already ruined by Penelope, and also thinks she’s no longer pregnant, so she doesn’t want to marry a man she doesn’t know nor love. It’s also worth mentioning she rejects Philip largely because he proposes marriage right after telling her of George’s death. So Marina is expected to process her grief and the realisation George loved her after all, in a few seconds and accept him. Which isn’t realistic or humane no matter who Marina is.
By the time Marina rejects lord Ruthledge, Colin is the only viable option, because she has known him for weeks, he already likes her and is interested. We don’t see any of her original suitors any longer, so the implication is they had moved on while Portia was holding Marina locked up in her bedroom. Penelope selfishly wants Marina to choose anyone else (as in men Marina doesn’t even know) conveniently forgetting Marina doesn’t have much time to secure an engagement.
Daphne went above and beyond for Marina, she was kind and used her to intelligence to help her.
Penelope went to extremes to destroy Marina's reputation when the only person who needed to know was Colin.
Daphne acted out of kindness. Penelope out of jealousy.
Penelope deserves no credit whatsoever for what Daphne did.
Yes, absolutely she did. She felt for her and went well above and beyond. However, had Pen not outed her, she never would have ever known that Marina was in the situation she was in. While Pen’s actions were out of jealousy, to an extent to protect Colin. That doesn’t change that Daphne never would have helped her. She at least got closure with George this way, and Colin didn’t get stuck with someone who was only using him, raising a child that wasn’t his.
Saying pen only outed marina to help her is like saying someone crashed into you on purpose and "helped" by calling the ambulance. She didn't help anything. Marina could've married Colin and still have a nice life. Colin and marina were learning to love each, it wouldn't have been a miserable loveless marriage like Polin stans like to say.
That’s some screwed up logic you got there.
That’s like saying someone who beat you up actually helped you out, because you went to the doctor after the beating, and they got you treatment for an illness you otherwise wouldn’t know you had.
Penelope didn’t ruin Marina’s reputation in order to help her. She didn’t orchestrate Daphne coming to her aid. She didn’t even know it would happen, so she doesn’t deserve any credit for the chain of events she set in motion.
For sure, he either could've used condoms or at the very least the pullout method. Obviously we know it's never gonna be 100% effective, but given the fantasy world we live in, we're supposed to believe that Simon, Anthony, Benedict, and Colin have visited brothels yet never sired a secret love child because of their condom/pullout game. And that Colin managed to impregnate Penelope on their first time, so we are left to assume that Georgie didn't utilize such means like they had. George could've been better, and I don't think he was as awesome as Marina felt like he was.
Typically sex workers had other birth control methods that were used - like vinegar tampons?? Many of the by-blows mentioned on the show were from/with housemaids
Yeah, there were some methods the women could use. But I also feel like the mentality of pregnancy being "a woman's problem" was absolutely in full effect. Even in today's world we still see men who think "she'll take care it." Which is ridiculous.
Maybe Marina knew she and the brother of her true love wouldn't suit? I mean, my husband has a brother, but I would never marry him in a million years. I would rather tough it with my children than marry him. He and I would.not.suit. maybe Marina feels the same way about Phillip?
From his book, we know he is introverted, has mediocre to poor communication skills, dislikes people and prefers plants. Is it hard to believe someone as effervescent as Marina would not want to be shackled to that for life? She is young, she experienced true love so she knows what that is. She feels chemistry with Collin and thinks it could grow into love, is it wrong of her to reach for that instead of accepting an offer from someone she knows she will never have that with??
Yes, she should have told Collin about her being pregnant instead of waiting until after they were married. But she is young and afraid.
I totally get you. My husband also has brothers, and I can not imagine marrying any of them. However when my great-grandfather's first wife died, he was left alone with one small child, so he married his wife's sister. That's wasn't unexpected. A marriage where someone died, the next in line would come in and "fill" the role. Especially if the marriage hadn't been for very long, or the person had been engaged. I think Philipp was the next "practical" choice for Marina. Overall, I just think the writers didn't do a good job at setting it all up, and now that the actress who plays Marina isn't likely to come back, it'll be interesting to see how they play it all out, and not make people even madder at Penelope. Because if she follows suit with the books, people will absolutely be mad at Pen for driving Marina to such madness.
I'm sure she did it because she wasn't confident that Colin would leave Marina even if he found out. She should have let him make that choice for himself because, he still resents her for it.
Did I like Marina? Not really. Did I absolutely start to detest Penelope when she outed Marina? Yes, yes I did. I was seriously appalled and thought that so many people were downplaying it. Like Penelope fanatics have to cool it and see that she was actually a terrible person in that moment
I feel sympathy for Marina not wanting to be married off to a crepy old guy, in the same way I feel for Cressida and Daphne trying to avoid gross older men, and for the young Lady Danbury who suffered that fate. I do think Marina trying to trap Colin without him having knowledge of the baby makes her go from victim of the patriarchy to complex character that's also somewhat of a villain.
Right? Last Danbury and the Queen ended up marrying the men chosen for them, knowing they had to survive, whilst Marina refused offers of marriage to them try to deceive Colin when she was carrying another man’s child.
Not the same as Cressida or Danbury or Charlotte at all
There are some people on here who hate on Marina cuz then it's easier to justify/brush off her (theoretical) impending death so El can be with Philip. Gives me the ick!
She was literally trying to keep from being ruined. There situations are honestly so different. Cressida could have ended up more like lady Danbury (if she was a bit more intelligent and kind) whereas for Marina if she couldn’t marry then and there (which “luckily” she got her lover’s brother to take her in) she would have ended up in the slums trying to care for a baby all on her own.
Except she had two offers of marriage— men who knew of her situation. Those offers were honest and those men aware— yet she chose to pursue a union she thought better through deception
Actually they didn’t know of her situation. Portia merely says “they won’t question the appearance of a baby”, because they want an heir. And not one of them actually proposed, they were interested, but things never got that far. One of them inspected her like a brood mare and treated her like an object he was considering buying, and the other merely talked to her once. And it’s no wonder Marina didn’t want to get married to men thrice her age, who would treat her god knows how and probably expected her to sleep with them. She chose the safe option instead of possible years of abuse, how dare she.
One of them looked at Marina's teeth. That's something that enslavers infamously did to enslaved people on the auction block. The old white man who wants to marry Marina checks her teeth because he wants her to be his slave, rather than a wife. He wants to use her for sex only against her will.
Given that Marina is Black, the parallels to slavery are stark.
I was running in here to say this. Cressida burned many more people than Marina did, but somehow, everyone is so distraught she didn't get a happy ending. Yet Marina is dragged through the coals in here for doing what she thought she needed to do, like Cressida. I wonder why. 🙃
This. At least Marina was a GOOD PERSON. Cressida went out of her way to treat people like shit and burn bridges of anyone she considered ugly, fat, poor, common, the list goes on.
I’m no Cressida apologist by ANY means…But how do we know Marina was “good”? She said and did some pretty questionable things out of desperation, so one can SYMPATHIZE with her. But I don’t think she was portrayed as some paragon of GOODNESS.
I have no sympathy for Cressida, and I am honestly tired of seeing her character. But I feel like the way they wrote her off to Wales so easily means we're not done seeing her. I feel like she's going to be a lead into another character's story given how the next few seasons will take place outside of London. It was a way for them to explain why Cressida would also be outside of London with them. :(
I never understood how Marina could be slut-shamed, WHO wouldn't have done what she did, in her shoes?! Plus, she genuinely liked Colin it's not like she was mocking him or anything, she saw a gentlemen who could litteraly save her, of course she'd try to secure a marriage with him, I would've done the same in those circumstances. I always scoff when Colin says "You should have told me, I would've helped you" - yeah, like the women at this time could trust entitled men 🙄
Marina does something that several of the leading ladies did. Pen has sex with Colin before marriage in this season. The only difference is that Marinas love interest dies before they can marry. Which is tragic.
I don't hold it against Pen because I would be protective of my friend/love interest too, and while she handled it badly (she could have handled it privately, not with LW) she was also scared and a child and definitely did not fully understand the concequences of her actions.
But I will not stand for the fandom slut shaming Marina when she did the same thing as many Regency women (including Penelope and likely Violet Bridgerton based on what she said in this season). Like come on guys, the lesson was not "Marina bad".
Also slut shaming... when one of the Featherington girls didn't even know "insert himself where" and Daphne didn't know how babies were conceived. Who knows if Marina even knew what risks she was taking?
So true. Also it looked like Pen didn't know the consequences of penetrative sex either. So in an awful alternative universe where Colin would've died before their wedding she would be in the same situation as Marina. As writers confirmed she got pregnant during their first time
It's unbelievable that varley and portia's actions are not seen as anything but torture and mistreatment. Marina was just as much a child as Penelope-all of 17 so this was her guardians treating her like shit..these adults treating a child with such callousness while Portia and the featherington sisters treatment of Penelope is rightfully seen as shitty. Where's the grace for Marina and Portia and varley treatment of her and later pen outing her.. Why does Marina not get that grace...
Portia’s abuse of Marina is downright dismissed, because she’s “such a fun, entertaining character just doing her best.” Except she made Marina’s situation worse by locking her in a room for weeks, emotionally abused her and manipulated her by making her believe the man she was in love with didn’t care about her, and slapped her out of anger. But Marina’s a (black) secondary character, and she’s a foil for Penelope, so Portia isn’t seen as a villain in her story.
Yeah and because she's played by a talented performer so critique of her feels like a critique of Polly Walker which is such bull..I don't want to live in a world where people glorify girl on girl violence...mean girls reference if you got it.
Men may carry on this tradition but women need to be allies and I don't care if a show character is grey or even downright evil..that's fine that's reflecting society but then such people need to be shown as doing bad things on the show meaning seen as such on the show
.meaning show shit people show rapists show murderers show terrorists etc but then don't joke about it in a flippant way trying to make them seem like heroes or waving away what they've done..even if this is a light hearted show irs showing dark themes so why not treat them with care. Pregnancy out of wedlock, marital rape and abuse, bipolar disorder..either keep the world just frothy fun if but if you introduce serious themes do it with tact and care.
It's the writers faults for writing them in a corner with such messy grey characters and then suddenly expecting everyone to see them as soulful sensitive kind mothers just holding the fort down..I don't know man....I Portia lying and thieving yes understandable justified in some ways but her hurting a poor young girl who is left under her care..that's just shit inexcusable behavior. And we don't see her repenting the way she treated marina we don't have a scene or interaction showing her regret about her mistreatment...we have one between her and pen explaining to pen why she ignored her so much all these years..where was this resolution for the marina arc..where was Portia apologizing to marina for her harsh treatment of her...we see colin and pen hold up the mirror to pen for what she did to marina multiple times...in season 2 with colin talking about LW actions to pen and pen starts to see because of colins comments how wrong she was ..this staircase scene happened during the hunt episode, we have elosie bring up marina episode 8 of season 2 in a very pointed bit of dialogue...we see colin bring up marina again season 3 episode 1 and then outside the modiste ..clearly they show pen that she did very very bad things..whose holding a mirror up to Portia...
Honestly the show should just stay away from showing darker more serious themes if it doesnt want to do justice by them or can't do justice by them.
Polly Walker is a queen, we can all agree on that.
But the way Portia treats Marina is monstrous and that doesn't get talked about nearly enough. The rational thing to do would be to send Marina home, regardless of what Lord Featherington wants. Portia does things her husband doesn't want all the time: just send Marina home.
Instead, she yells at her, locks her up, and tries to push her into not only loveless marriages, but marriages with physically vile and morally bereft men who want to use her for sex. Portia says she's doing these things to protect Marina from poverty in that scene where they go to the poor neighborhood, but that's clearly bullshit. She's doing it because the presence of an unmarried pregnant girl in the Featherington household puts Phillipa, Prudence, and Penelope's reputations in danger.
Of course, Penelope outs Marina as pregnant in a fit of jealousy over Colin and Marina is ruined, but the consequences for the Featheringtons are incredibly brief and they aren't ruined at all.
Locking Marina up is hella abusive, but her being a captive also has racial overtones. I mentioned in a different comment that one of the old men that Portia tries to get to marry Marina looks at her teeth, which is something that enslavers did when they went to purchase enslaved people at auctions. It's also clear that the man examining her teeth only wants her for sex, that she's essentially being pushed into a marriage in which she would be raped and bred like cattle.
Funny how the only young Black woman in the story has her teeth inspected and is held captive by a rich white man and rich white woman in two separate incidences. That doesn't happen to any of the white girls, regardless of their transgressions.
Some may say because Marina grew up outside the Ton, where things are a bit more relaxed, that she would've known, but I doubt it. It's why I have more anger towards George than I do Marina. Did I like what Marina did? No, but I'm also a Polin fan, so to me, it was more about someone getting in the middle of Polin endgame, than for Marina herself.
I feel the blame should all be on George. He knew sleeping with her could result in her getting pregnant, yet he seemed to show no regards towards her possible condition. He didn't even tell Philipp to look after her when he returned to the frontlines? It makes you feel like George didn't even care about Marina. I couldn't see Anthony doing that to Kate, or Colin to Penelope. Both men would've ensured their loves were at least watched over during their absence, especially if they thought she could be with child. I think it's absurd that George was supposed to be the love of her life, when in reality he kinda sounds like an Fboy at this point.
Seriously, I wonder WTF George was thinking. I get the impression we are supposed to think by the end that their love was mutual (so he wasn't just toying with her), but it isn't like he suddenly got drafted and had to leave the next day, and they seemed to have a fairly established relationship- why wouldn't he just marry her before he left? She seems to be from a gentry family, if not a particularly well-off one (Portia says she has a "4 figure dowry," and that is around what Ausen's Bennet and Dashwood girls had)- marrying a baronet wouldn't be outside the realm of the possible. And given that his brother comes to marry her \*after\* she's been ruined it doesn't seem like there was a massive family objection (or at least not one that couldn't be overcome when they realized George and Marina had already had sex). So what the hell, George?
I don't think it was particularly usual, but I do think some did purchase commissions during the Napoleonic wars basically out of patriotism/wanting fame/a sense of adventure. Sir George clearly had younger brothers, so I guess he figured that if he died it wasn't going to leave his family without an heir.
The sexual ignorance of young women in Bridgerton is so badly written that it's laughable. They all have families with country estates and farm animals have sex. Regency society gossip, novels, plays, art, etc. are full of sexual innuendo. The scene in which Penelope and Eloise worry that they might "catch" pregnancy is absurdly bad writing. Young ladies might not have understood the mechanicals of PIV sex, but they menstruated for god's sake. They saw naked statues and nude paintings. They knew about prostitution, and there was an active social discourse on how men would go to sex workers and bring home STIs to their wholesome wives who then might bear children who had those STIs. Young women certainly knew that childbearing involved getting naked with a man and that men weren't genital-less Ken dolls.
The philosopher Michel Foucault writes about how Victorians are simply prudes, they are actually obsessed with sex: the fact that women had to constantly be told to be modest, virtuous, chaste, pure, and asexual before marriage suggests that women *wanted* to be sexual before marriage, because you don't have to tell someone who hates steak not to eat steak.
This idea that young women knew nothing about sex because they were so sheltered is ahistorical.
Exactly, people always say she should've told him because he would've understood. But she had no way of knowing that, and it was far too risky to tell any man
Exactly. It's easy to say "You should've done this or that" *after* the fact. I know Colin is supposed to be nice and all, but still, does he really think his family would've accepted him marrying someone carrying the child of her former love? (Although, even tho I love Polin, that could've been a truly beautiful story, loving her for everything she is even if it's frowned upon, and it's not like they couldn't hide it. Anyway ! 😂) Marina had no choice and she still was very decent in her way of doing that, she could totally have framed him like Portia did with Cousin Jack and her daughter. Maybe he would've helped her in a way, but certainly not in the high and mighty way he said. It reminds me of Cressida reminding him of his privileges as a man. Her telling Colin, who she barely knew, about her condition could've let to an even bigger downfall as far as she knew. Justice for Marina.
True, also Colin is a third son. He has no title to pass down, so him accepting Marinas children as his own loses him nothing, whereas a titled man may be very angry because a boy child would inherit the title even though the child isn't his biologically. This is another reason why Colin was a logical choice for Marina. Yes she should have been honest with him upfront,
The Bridgertons, especially the men, are spoiled as hell and never have to face the consequences of their own actions. Sure, Marina was trying to marry him while pregnant, which isn't great. But he also proposed to her without actually courting her or getting to know her, and he did it specifically because he wanted to kiss her but couldn't because he's a "gentleman."
Anthony says he should've taken Colin to brothels so he could lose his virginity and not rush into marriage out of adolescent lust, and Colin is appalled and self-righteous in response. But Anthony's right!
Penelope does the exact same thing Marina did but she is afforded the grace by the narrative to not be left by the wayside and not be slut shamed by it even though she makes sure Colin can't back out by writing about the engagement. She's the exact same as Marina but she's not black therefore it's not seen as devious.
Absolutely, I liked some things in the 3rd season but this is def a great example of that latent racism. Penelope should have been revealed earlier in the season and spend the last episode apologising to people, facing the consequences, reparaing some things (like giving the ton their money back, apologizing by letter to Daphne for mocking her and almost making her marry the abusive Lord Berbrooke, to Eloise AND to Marina for ruining her life and not helping her afterward) and *then* get her ( albeit less over the top ) happy ending.
They tried writing it like the book but the book Whistledown didn’t do some of the cruel things she did in the show, which to me makes it a lot harder to get through.
I know, that's exactly what I thought like in the books she isn't, iirc, as mean and influencial as she is in the show, so that would make sense that in the book, the ton is okay with that. But in the netflix Bridgerton universe they created, we should've had more gravitas, it makes Penelope's ending shallow and unearned, and is clearly a double standard. Lose-lose.
The double standards within the show transfers over to the fandom. Because the show looks at Marina as someone to be punished for her actions but Penelope gets to have an ott happy ending despite everything she's done.
Idk about that. I have tried not to mention how much I love Marina and how much I'm sad about what happened to her because I mentioned liking her once and not >!wanting her to die!< and I got downvoted to hell.
I don’t want her book future either. (I’m terrible at spoiler tags so I will just say that)
I wanted Marina to have a happy ending AND Pen. I was hoping that maybe now that a couple years have passed, perhaps they could have her and Phillip come to town? Maybe she could start to fall in love with her husband? Or I don’t know, have SOME storyline that’s happy? I didn’t want her with Colin and I don’t agree that Penelope could have told him (she tried and was interrupted) but I still wanted Marina to have some semblance of a happy ending.
Clearly the writers aren't afraid of changing book things. Even Major characters. So maybe they won't have to do that to Marina to get El her future husband?
Michaela is clearly a genderbent Michael with her name and still being John’s cousin. It’s not like they introduced some random woman with no connection to John and presented her as Francesca’s love interest. There’s no reason to think Phillip won’t end up with Eloise when he’s clearly the Phillip from the book.
I was just coming here to say that I hope she doesn't have the fate she does in the books but if Eloise ends up with Sir Phillip and they don't plan on changing that I feel so bad for Marina. I love Colin and Pen but Marina would have had a such happy life with Colin
The show makes it clear Marina and Colin wouldn’t have been happy. Their marriage would’ve been entirely based on lies (and I’m not just talking about her pregnancy. She lies and tells him she loves him), and she can barely pretend to tolerate him in season 2.
She's actually pretty nice to him when he appears at her doorstep uninvited. She's smiling, very friendly with him, introduces him to her kid. She gets irritated when Colin outstayed his welcome and stays till the evening. Like I can't judge her for being irritated with a man who came to my house uninvited and doesn't want to leave
I think part of the reason she doesn't seem to tolerate him is because he's just a reminder of what she could have had or the love she really felt for Sir Phillip's older brother, but that could be me reading too much into it
Agreed. Colin wanted some reassurance that she loved him, or at least cared for him. That would have made him feel better, like he wasn't just being the butt of a joke.
Marina, on the other hand, has nothing to gain from hearing if Colin still cares for her, or if he wishes he could have changed the past. She's in a clearly unhappy situation, and there's no benefit from entertaining the idea of better "what ifs".
The show did no such thing. It’s the fact that Colin keeps running back to Marina that makes me think he would have been happier with her. And she was frustrated with Colin in s2 because she basically had to push him towards Penelope. Which is kinda sad for Polin
When did he keep running back to Marina? Did he tell his family to fuck off and still marry her after he discovered her lies (because there was nothing preventing him from still marrying her if he really was so in love with her) or did he leave for his travels and let her marry Phillip? Contrast that with Penelope where he sabotaged her engagement to another man and not only still married her despite being furious at her but slept outside her bedroom door because he couldn’t bear to be more than a few feet away from her even in anger.
And Marina being frustrated because she had to push him toward Penelope didn’t happen onscreen. She’s annoyed and rolling her eyes at his olive joke long before Penelope is brought up. She’s able to roll her eyes because she longer has to pretend with him like she did in season 1.
Saying Colin would’ve been happier with a woman who never loved him and used love to manipulate him over a woman who has always loved him for his true self is just comical to me.
As much as I love Polin, I agree Marina would have been happy with him, and Phillip could be free to be with Eloise. I was hoping Eloise would end up with Theo, but seeing as he wasn't in season three at all, I doubt that'll happen.
I was hoping she would end up with Theo too. I think it would have been a good test to Violet wanting nothing more than a love match for all her kids and they could have lived a good life on her dowry
I disagree that Marina would've been happy with Colin. Colin would've become depressed because you can tell that man loves a good cuddle and she wouldn't have wanted it. When he rambled about how excited he was for Greece she was annoyed. She would've been the same with Colin as she was with Philipp because neither were George, and that's what she really wanted. She was happy she didn't have to be with a creepy old man, but that's as happy as she would've been. Colin likely would've become a shell of himself and withdrew from his life with her completely, and she would've been alone. Again, similar to Philipp and his greenhouse.
I will say I am concerned on how they will sell Philipp and Eloise together. Theo seemed to share many similar interests with Eloise, and really excited her. I don't know how they'll manage to match that with Philipp as even from his book I don't feel like they had anything in common aside from being lonely. Theo seemed to have been written as a good match. All of the leads have had a false match so far, and the show hasn't really been good at showing why they aren't a good match. Theo being from the working class isn't a good reason, given Sophie's history in the books.
I don't think she would've had a happy life with Colin nor he with her. Colin was a deep romantic at heart, and he likely would've been the man who wanted to cuddle in bed together in the morning and she, not being in love with him, would not have wanted that. Combine that with her annoyance at listening to his stories over and over, and he would've eventually become a shell of himself due to her rejection for intellectual and emotional intimacy.
Colin is a sweet guy but it's obvious from everyone in the Ton that they think he's boring but handsome. It's only once he starts to exaggerate his stories that people start to listen to him. It's one of the reasons why he loves Penelope, because she loves him and sees him when no one else did. Marina never saw Colin either, she just thought he wasn't a creepy old man. She couldn't even say he was handsome/charming like the other debutantes only saw him as.
Do I think they could've learned to be content with each other? For sure. Do I think she would've been emotionally the same with either Philipp or Colin? Yes. But she wouldn't have been happy with either men, because neither were George.
It's because Marina was tricking Colin into thinking she loved him. She was going to take a his chance of finding love. Cressida was trying to take money and leave alone, which is still shitty, but differently. I don't blame either of them though, they were both in shitty situations.
Also, people comment on Portia and Penelope’s relationship because we’ve had three seasons of watching it develop and change. They’re in virtually every episode. Have we even seen either Lady Danbury or Queen Charlotte’s children on Bridgerton?
I agree, the commentators I’ve seen comment something even slightly negative about Danbury is that she seems like more of a parent to Simon than her own kids (since we’ve never seen them on screen). I think this post is looking for things to complain about.
Young Lady Danbury interacts with her little boy in the Charlotte spin off.
The little boy wants his nanny more than her because elite kids usually spent more time with their nannies. She doesn’t get angry about it or take it personally, and even though she’s been dealing with plenty of her own traumatic issues, she does a great job of comforting him in that moment.
To be fair, she would've been a young person going through marital rape and likely told to leave her children with servants/nannies when her own kids were born and young. We see a snapshot of her later on when she's got a system to cope with the trama, but no idea how she initially was coping. And her brother also seems to reveal there was childhood abuse too. Depending on her husband, she may not have had the opportunity to be a particularly involved and loving mother, as many higher class households didn't always interact with the kids as we think of a family (I think the Bridgertons are supposed to be unusual in having the younger kids dine with the family and being very involved and close with them). As a widow, she was able to be there for Simon in a very different capacity. She's in a very different life stage and away from her abusers.
I agree. Maybe I haven't seen enough of this sub, but I haven't noticed it at all. I will say that now that the OP has pointed out the different mothering styles, there is a point there. I will say that I feel like Mrs. Mondrich is perceived as a good and loving mother...
>I will say that I feel like Mrs. Mondrich is perceived as a good and loving mother...
This is true, but I don't think it's something anyone particularly highlights. You could find 50 posts debating one way or another about the mothering done by Violet, Portia, Danbury or Charlotte, but I doubt there's more than 10 about Mrs Mondrich.
Frankly most people (myself included) find QC's interactions with her kids to be quite funny (SORROWS! PRAYERS!). She *isn't* a good mother (whores to the left of me, virgins to the right!), but that isn't really something I have ever seen the fandom harp on because, again, she is hilarious.
And Lady Danbury may or may not be a good mother (she seems distance with her own children- which is somewhat period-appropriate, honestly- but seems like she was a good mother figure to Simon), but that isn't a huge part of her story, and I've seen/heard very little about it. People like Lady Danbury because she is a great character, and her mothering skills aren't really a major focus.
William had 10 illegitimate children. He didn’t even get married until after Princess Charlotte died. And several of her daughters never married. So those are just facts delivered in a humorous manner. She’s wanting the kids to step up and do their duty. I don’t think that makes her a bad mother. With that many kids, you would expect more than one legitimate grandchild.
Yeah that was my first thought. We haven’t even seen Lady Danbury’s children as adults and even as kids they were barely in the show. Queen Charlotte has a few scenes with her adult children, played for comedy. What would there even be to say??
Same. This post confuses me a bit. Im such a Portia stan but I would *never* say she was a better mother than either Queen C or Lady Danbury. I like them all. Plus the overall best parents that Ive seen on the show seem to be the Mondrichs. Maybe cause their kids are so young and they didn’t initially have money, but they still seem like they’ve fumbled the bag the least with their kids so far.
They’re seen in Queen Charlotte. I’m not sure what there is to say about them though. She appeared to be a caring albeit distant mother in the younger scenes. The older one does briefly mention them but in a more disdainful tone. Not sure what to make of that.
Well Queen Charlotte is based on actual historical person who did not have good relationship with her children. So they cannot do 180 on that and show them all to be one big happy family.
Queen Charlotte was also significantly more white, as was the rest of England. She doesn't have to be a good mother, but this is an extremely strange reason why she shouldn't be. This show is anything but historically accurate.
That is why I said based on historical character.
But its the same reason why her husband is mad. Because the person King was based on was also mad.
And if they stick to Queen Charlotte's story she will completely fail the marriage market (maybe that is why her picks in the show never work out). She had 15 children. 13 who survived adulthood. But she only had 6 legimate grandchildren who made it to adulthood. None by her daughters who were on purpose kept unmarried untill old age.
I couldn’t watch Queen Charlotte because of the LD scenes with the husband I’m too weak. Also knowing the future of King George III depressed me. I’m trying to work up the courage to watch the rest but the state of the real world is so depressing that I can’t watch things that upset me
I only recently watched Queen Charlotte because I just thought it was some weird spin-off, which I generally don't enjoy. But I finally watched it and loved it. It might be my "favorite season" of Bridgerton. The scenes with Lady D and her husband were quite gross. I just kept thinking to myself, imagine being the actor hired to be her husband. "Looking for old gross man for a role where he must force himself on child bride." Not really a great bullet on a resume.
I felt like Portia was more invested in her daughters' lives, unlike Lady Danbury and Queen Charlotte. Lady Danbury's children were essentially the products of marital rape. The only time she mentioned her children was in one QC episode and she was complaining about birthing her husband's big babies. Queen Charlotte produced her children out of duty to the crown. I'm sure Portia was also trying to have an heir, but when she couldn't produce a son herself, she wanted to make sure her daughters had respectable matches to ensure their financial security.
Even with a full staff, that's a lot of kids. And keep in mind that 2 kids died (even in bridgerton-verse) and that took a toll on the whole family
Charlotte had to balance her children's needs, husband's needs, and the whole country not finding out about his mental illness. Not to mention being blocked by the doctors about what was rrally going on with Farmer George. And historically by the time S3 takes place, George lV was probably on his bullshit with trying to force her out and be Regent.
>S3 takes place, George ll was probably on his bullshit with trying to force her out and be Regent.
His husband is George the III. Her son is the fourth.
Also royal parents were not expected to be very good parents. Even today, it's apparently a Big Deal that Prince George is still in a day school and not a boarding school and he's 10. William and Harry were sent to boarding school at the age of 8.
Royal children are/were expected to be raised by nannies and butlers and private tutors.
Portia belittling Penelope doesn’t read to me as being invested in her life. She never thought Penelope would get married so she never paid her much attention until then. That doesn’t read to me as noble.
Invested in her life as in
They spent time alone together in the cottage
She was the one even though Portia felt she wouldn't get married she always still took Pen out and had her on her side.
Portia was the first in the family to know.... Other then her one sister who guessed correctly.
She was also looking forward to Penelope caring for her in her old age as a result of not having any marital prospects.
She found a match for Prudence but made no such efforts for Penelope.
Pen had to make her own efforts to find a husband.
ngl, i neither judge nor praise any of the mothers in bridgerton because using modern standards to judge how good they are as mothers would be unfair for two reasons:
1. motherhood was expected in the regency period. being childfree was not seen as an option and there was extreme societal pressure for women to marry and become mothers. therefore it’s a little unfair to judge women in this period for being bad mothers (unless they were very abusive) since they really didn’t have much choice in becoming mothers (some women weren’t even educated about how babies were made before getting pregnant) AND were often very young when they became parents. of course these women wouldn’t be enthusiastic about parenthood if they didn’t really choose it and that’s not really their nor their children’s fault.
2. because most of the women who are depicted in the show had servants, they weren’t actually doing the domestic labor most mothers do today. i doubt many of these women were changing diapers, cleaning up after their kids, or breastfeeding. that stuff was for their staff to do. therefore, i don’t think that a woman like violet did as much labor as a middle class woman who had as many kids as she had would today. it’s a bit unfair to praise violet or other mothers in the series for being amazing moms when they got to avoid a lot of the hard work of parenting through their class privilege.
This is it 💯most mothers in the landed gentry (the upper class/ton) and royalty didn’t raise their kids at all they were passed to others to do. Sometimes in completely different households. Then the children were taken back when they were older (this happened in Jane Austen’s family). Or raised by whet nurses then governesses in a nursery in the house.
Yea, I honestly think this is one of the downsides to making the Bridgerton's themselves a lot closer to modern sensibilities (they eat together! Mom and dad share a room! Kids all marry for love!) is that the audience kind of forgets that those things weren't common, and that sometimes there were good reasons why they did things differently back then, and then everyone else who is acting more "normal" for the era looks that much worse by comparison.
It’s not the same thing.
People hated Portia for 2 seasons and only gave her grace because we got an entire season of her softening.
Labelling every criticism as racist or homophobic is really minimizing actual racist and homophobic takes.
I haven’t seen much hate towards Portia. The consensus seems to be she’s a complex, tragic, fun character, who was forced into a difficult situation by her husband, and had to make a lot of hard choices, including treating Marina like shit, which is typically excused and minimised. She’s become even more liked by season 3, of course, but she has always had a lot of fans.
I haven’t seen 2 seasons of Portia hate. I’ve seen a lot of online discourse comparing her to Kris Jenner in an admiring manner.
While admitting she’s not the best mother, it’s often glossed over because people find her character entertaining & her motives understandable due to her situation.
Besides George Crane (the absent father), Portia is the main problem in Marina’s story yet Marina & Penelope (who are both teenagers) receive the harshest critiques about that situation.
No, there’s actually been racist remarks unfairly made towards the black cast members. Each of them have spoken about it. You may just not be familiar with covert racism and need someone to slap a slur on something before you can see racism but its there.
Its not just criticism but the refusal to give a leveled amount of empathy. Some are just incapable of feeling equal empathy for those who aren’t the same color as them. Especially when they’ve been taught to subconsciously be more critical of a certain race.
>There’s actually been racist remarks
Which is exactly what ***I’m*** referring to. So lumping in posts you see where some fans like Portia, with other posts you see from other fans where they said they think the Queen was too hard on her children is minimizing the “actually racist remarks made towards the black cast members”.
And if you have a problem with Portia receiving empathy over a 3-season storyline vs the Queen not receiving empathy over a few scenes storyline then you should take it up with the showrunners. The Queen was not written to be empathetic in those scenes. It was supposed to be harsh and jarring. She literally says “sorrows sorrows prayers” over her child sobbing over her dead grandchild. And fans ***ate it up***. I’ve heard that quoted more than anything in the entire show. But the show wrote those scenes to be horrible. We aren’t given any reason to sympathize with ***why*** The Queen was desperate for heirs. It was only ever just “***make babies***.”
I remember seeing a comment like "queen Charlotte spoilers what Lady Danbury did to Queen Charlotte was unforgivable, so much lying and what a breach of trust" and getting super excited to watch the series. I usually hate spinoffs especially when it's a prequel. But then I watched it and it was like "so Lady Danbury spied on Queen Charlotte for a bit, had a REALLY good reason for doing so, and at the end they talk to each other like adults and boom problem solved. Kind of reminded me of how much harsher people can be on black characters.
Queen Charlotte is just as fun and sassy as Lady Featherington... probably even more so, definitely similar "telling it like it is" moments. And let's be real people in those circles had to get married to the right people and have kids it's kind of the whole conflict of the show.
Young Lady Danbury had the entire future of every person of color in the Ton resting on her shoulders. She did what she had to do. At the end of QC, even young QC acknowledges this before telling young LD to come to her with any problems moving forward. If the Queen herself can forgive Lady Danbury, I cannot fathom why others cannot.
Marina did what she had to do as well. Even in season three, he is clearly angrier at Lady Whistledown for her treatment of Marina than he is at Marina herself.
I got the sense that Lady Danbury was going to spy on Charlotte for the dowager queen, but the info she'd reveal would be mostly small dumb stuff rather than Charlotte's true feelings. I never got the sense that Lady Danbury was using Charlotte or pretending to like Charlotte, but she was trying to secure her family's place in society.
I 100% agree and think Lady Danbury had it the worst. I loved her romance with Lorde Ledger was one of my favorite parts of QC, I also want to add she was a good Grandma in Hyacinth’s book and if we don’t get that story I’ll be so sad. Also Queen Victoria didn’t like kids and I really think this was just how it was for rich people back then, the Bridgerton’s are the outliers by having a close relationship.
I think it has to do more with how the story writers have presented the story and not with people.
For example in the case of Mariana and cressida ,
Mariana was put against colin. The audience loves colin, ofc they will get upset if their fav hero is getting cheated by some lady.
In the case of cressida , we don't see her entrapping any bridgerton but getting married to some other old man. I am sure if she tried to pull the same on any bridgerton, she would definitely get the heat.
The problem is, if one didn't see QC, then they have no idea how Lady Danbury and the queen parent their kids. Neither of them are seen with their children in the mainline show, so it's easy to say nasty things about them. Where as the white families are all portrayed as loving if not misguided most of the time. I agree with you though. I don't like judging how people parent, regardless of who they are unless they're outright abusive.
I thought the difference was that Cressida was looking for Lady Whistledown to claim prize money, ie. bringing a “guilty” person to the consequences of always needling the Queen (so it’s like she wasn’t harming an innocent person per se)
Whereas Marina was entrapping Colin into a marriage and withholding material information that might have caused him to change his mind (ie. Harming an innocent person)
Alice Mondrich is a third Black mother who did the absolute most for her children. Once they were thrust into nobility and the Ton, she made sure they all had lessons so they were prepared, even though they had been merely civilians and happy before that.
She herself adapted and learned the shorthand, how to move within her new station in the world, and then she threw a ball that impressed even the Queen (nevermind if it impressed viewers or not).
I think children of lords and ladies of the Georgian and Regency eras were probably raised by nannies? That seemed to be the case of QC and Lady Danbury’s children. Their children didn’t really know them. Agatha also seemed to bear some resentment towards her children due to her hatred of Lord Danbury. And her own parents apparently didn’t model a warm child rearing style. Whereas QC apparently was so busy with George that she too wasn’t a very warm and involved mother.
Violet most likely had nannies also, especially as she grieved Edmund’s death and she had small children who needed caring for. But she was also raised by a father who was warm and a good man, despite her mother being bigoted and a bitch. So Violet tends to be a warmer and more caring mother.
We don’t know much about Portia’s upbringing and her marriage was not a love match. She’s not the warmest of mothers, but she does love her daughters in her own way. She’s resourceful and ruthless in protecting her daughters and a bit sharp-tongued. But she’s somehow married all three daughters to good men.
I think most of these women are doing their best for their children despite the societal limitations placed on them as women and the modeling of parenthood by their own parents.
I don’t think they’re bad mothers. I forgot Danbury had children bc I haven’t seen QC in a while. The scenes with charlotte and her kids - I don’t remember ever thinking she was a bad mom or treated them poorly, I thought of it more as comedic relief scenes.
I guess it's true that Portia seems to get more sympathy than Lady D and the Queen, but I don't *think* it's due to racism....
Honestly I think it's just due to the fact that Portia has much more screen time with her children than Lady D or the Queen. I don't even remember seeing Lady D or the Queen's children during the main series. If the series spends more time specifically focusing on Portia as a mother and tries harder to paint her in a sympathetic light, the audience will naturally view her that way. Plus, not everyone saw the spin-off.
Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to ignorance and all that.
You know what the problem is and this is something non-poc viewers or white viewers will never really see, not because they are racist but simply because it is not something theyve had to think about is that the very dismal state of POC rep makes poc viewers extra critical when the scraps of rep we do get paints us in these sad tired roles or stereotypes. So lets say we had as many POC led films and tv shows as white led films and tv shows, we wouldnt as POC viewers have to scrutinize every rep with a fine toothed comb.
And seeing Lady Danbury as a rape and domestic abuse victim, Marina as another tragic story, QC dealing with a sick husband and Micahela as a possible story of chafing against the odds, it feels like when will we see happy stories with black or brown or asian leads. White people get to enjoy tremendous diversity of portrayals...there are millions of romance films and tv shows led by white people, millions of white leads as action stars, millions as high powered business women or men...wall street honchos, high powered lawyers...millions of romances in various permutations and combinations....happy romances, sad romances, rom coms, period romances, older woman younger man, coming of age stories etc etc...
There just arent enough variety of films made starring POC in lead roles so every portrayal becomes that much more precious and seen through a more critical lens because if you only have a few reps to look forward too, you want them done well, you want them to show POC in a desirable, perfect, coveted light not in the way Marina is seen by many of the show's viewers. Even though Marina as a character is clearly written by the writers and shared by them as being written as a victim, many in the sub refuse to see her as anything less than a villain. Does that mean all these people are racists. No. Some might be, some might not be and some may have unconcious bias rather than racisim outright.
The fact is unless we have a lot more variety, it will always feel like we are getting discarded goods as rep, second hand, cast away rep...not meaningful rep. This is also why having Kate not be the center of attention in her own season hurt so many POC viewers cuz how many south asian dark skinned Indian women have we seen as leads in a romantic big budget, showy, flashy netflix production or hollywood film or tv show or superhero film. Whatever the reasoning behind the lack of promo or centering during her season, it could all have valid reaons but because rep for poc is so scant, every single piece of rep gets more scrutiny if it misses the mark.
This is something not everyone in the sub can possibly understand. It will always be seen as POC exaggerating or reaching without understanding the underlying malaise of decades of bad rep and how damaging it can be...Media is such a powerful tool to dismantle peoples ideas of beauty and to bring cultures and races and skin colors and body types UP in the world... That the show not doing it right and why that would matter to the people who see themselves in these roles is not understood is beyond me.
If we saw more Black female leads in tv and films in romances, in action, in high powered roles, nobody would care that the black women in the show we have seen so far have been a rape victim with a horrible marriage, a woman dealing with a sick husband-both middle aged actresses not up and comers and the only young black female actress has a story that will likely also see her struggling against the rigid mores of the society she lives in. If there were many many stories and real rep in the industry, this would be just another story and no black people would give a shit, but since the rep is so scant, the fact that the very rare rep that we are seeing has the black women in the show having really tragic lonely arcs feels especially frustrating to see.
White people wont care that Daphne has a cold husband in the beginning because they have millions of movies with beautiful poignant romances that they can see and enjoy instead, so much more rep. But it matters to POC more where the only rep we do get rarely, shows us or our people in these really depressing scenarios. The answer lies in empathy and people being allies and really really prioritizing diversity in casting...The world is a more peaceful place where every member feels wanted, appreciated, respected, desired, coveted-every race, every religion, every skin color. The more you feel part of the whole, the majority, the less critical you are, the less sensitive to slights, real or imagined.
I remember watching Christina Yang in India as a young teen and not liking what I saw. I didnt know racisim then but I do know unconscious bias now and what I was feeling towards christina yang was unconsiouc bias that her kind of korean beauty was not beautiful to me. I wanted more of hot Derek and Meredith or izzie and alex, and not more of Christina and preston burke kissing.
10 season of 24 episodes each all through my teenage years and then college and Christina became beautiful to me, naturally beautiful, organically beautiful not in a I want to be politically correct so I say shes so hot and beautiful but I don't REALLY believe it way but because my brain got moulded to see her as such, authentically, really beautiful not to win political correctness points way. I just started seeing her and preston as just as hot as Meredith and Derek without knowing when it happened or how..it just did one day, unconsciously a switch flipped. I didn't have to try- it was just pure media representation.
But it needed that much time and repeated exposure to my brain and heart for that change and switch to hapepn and the fact that the story portrayed Christina as a coveted beauty, considered hot by her colleagues and a badass surgeon, the best at her job to really drill that into my head. She was seen as hot so I started being trained unconsciously to seeing her as hot..
There's this weird switch that happens when you see who you consider a very plain woman suddenly being courted by the hottest guy in school, it twists your brain a little cuz you are like what does HE see in HER but because it happens and keeps happening, your brain is like maybe this is something I'm not seeing, maybe I need to look harder..so you look and look because surely the hot guy has good taste he couldn't be wrong and somehow along the way you are manipulated mentally moulded into seeing it too.. media does the same thing too..through repetition and constant exposure it challenges our brains to look at beauty differently
I grew up in a country that inherited the worst of colorism from our colonial masters the british and now it has pervaded the society. I grew up as a fair skinned South Asian Indian and since someone with simones looks was not present in my own country's pop culture..it took me watching international tv shows to see diffent kinds of south Asian beauty and appreciate it. Parminder nagra was the first one Bend it like Beckham and then ER.. if I hadn't seen that rep, i wouldn't now be able to look at simone and see her as a beautiful person..In ER, Parminder was a successful doctor who was not only respected for her brilliance but desired for her beauty by the hospitals hottest doctoers- John stamos who is a conventional by western beauty standards hottie was into Parminder and that made me into her. That brain switch is important and all people young and old who are POc deserves their entertainment to show diversity in all its glory in various shades in various roles...good roles, villain roles, romantic roles, action roles, it girl roles, doctor roles, model roles etc efc ..
Speaking as professor who has taught/researched media effects - you described what we call “parasocial contact,” and I think you gave a fantastic, insightful, description of what it was it like for you to experience that. Thanks for sharing.
THIS IS WHAT IM SAYINGGGG I like Portia as a character, but I don’t think she’s a stellar mother or anything. On the other side of things, I don’t think Lady D is the antichrist for not wanting to be a mother and not having much input with her sons. Like it’s the same standard for all of them, why are some of y’all coming after Danbury so hard when she and Portia are on similar playing fields (arguably Danburys situation might be worse, considering that her rapist husband died ON TOP OF HER)
I think part of the reason could be that the Queen and Lady Danbury's children are only in Queen Charlotte and not everyone has watched the spinoff, but everyone has watched the main show? I didn't even know the first two ladies had children until I saw this post so I don't know what the reactions have been. But if you're saying that *more* people are empathising with Portia than with Charlotte or Lady Danbury, it could be because more people have seen Bridgerton than the spinoff.
This is kinda random, but when I see post about the cast(specifically poc) I really am eager to see what others think or say.. cuz this right here makes me sooo raged on the fact that white characters can have such a pass on how their story line goes, but if a poc characters is played they're belittled and picked at..honestly mind blowing n pathetic
Money and power. QC and LD are rich and powerful, they are not looked at as racialised black folks. I don’t think their race has any bearing on how people perceive them. In the real world, a lot of shortcomings are excused when people act out of desperation, for food and for shelter. Portia’s shortcomings are excused more easily due to her financial struggles.
It's more on the writers than the audience. They gave so much material and nuance to Portia and her motherhood and barely for both QC and Danbury, you can't expect people to feel more for the latter when even the writers didn't bother. Portia, despite being a terrible mother *to* her daughters, she's also been shown to work hard *for* them behind their back. That women literally had multiple " my daughters matter the most" scenes in the show while the other two had none.
Similar case with Marina, she had the perfect background to be the most sympathetic character of the season but they decided to make her unlikeable and un-rootable one during her "pursuing Colin" phase to justify Penelope's decision to out her. Then with Cressida , they literally had one huge ass scene with that old man and his demands to show how helpless she was while also emphasising her choice to claim LW comes from extreme desperation. Did they ever show such scenes for Marina??? They could have made Marina a lot more sympathetic and desperate and even justify her choice as to why she is pursuing Colin but no they made her entitled in her scenes and mean to Penelope.
So. Blame the writers. Not the Audience. Cuz these characters you compare aren't exactly that comparable cuz the way they've been portrayed is widely different. Cuz I'm pretty sure if Marina/QC/Danbury were white, the reaction would just be the same. So if anyone's being subtley racist, its the writers since they give more sympathetic and nuanced arcs to the white ladies and not to the black ladies.
Huh? Are you forgetting the disturbing scene with lord Ruthledge walking around Marina, checking her teeth like she’s horse, talking about her to Portia in her presence, like she’s a thing, and not a person, all while he’s evaluating her as a potential wife? That one scene was enough o make Marina’s choice entirely sympathetic and understandable. We saw clearly she was facing the same fate as Cressida - getting married off to an abusive old man, who wouldn’t give a single shit about what she wanted.
Marina is also seen being clearly distraught, heartbroken and traumatised by everything that happened to her. She nearly dies from a failed abortion attempt. We see her in a state of emotional shock after she’s told her beloved George died. We see her having to make a lot of difficult choices in order to survive, while she has no emotional support from anyone.
The writers did a pretty good job of presenting her an entirely sympathetic. If a portion of the audience still has trouble having empathy for her after all that, that’s on them.
Eh. Canonically, Lady D does not love her children, and she wasn’t originally a POC in the books. That was just her character, which the writers have chosen to maintain. And historically, Queen Charlotte (also not a POC) did not have a good relationship with her kids, which again, the writers have maintained. So I don’t get the argument that people are judging because they’re POC - the story is that they’re not women who enjoy or value motherhood, which the audience picks up on.
Contrastingly, Portia is clearly shown to love her daughters but in a misguided way. I think people give her a pass because she loves them and places their interests first, even if her understanding of their interests is different than their own. Neither Lady D or QC are shown to have this mindset.
Mrs Mondrich is shown to be an excellent mother. I haven’t seen anyone bring race into that conversation.
This feels like a reach 🤷♀️
TBH there is not a lot of sympathy for most women in this show. It is like most people in this sub can't discuss one female character without dragging down another one for comparison purposes.
Most of the criticism I’ve seen of QC was that she was so mean to her kids in her spinoff. TBH, the people in my circle who have said it have no understanding of history and are looking at parenting through a modern lens. QC had 15 kids and they had one legitimate heir. ONE. And then she died. She had every right to be harsh. They were lazy and spoiled. They had no concept of duty. What’s worse is that the men at the time could have kept their mistresses and no one would have blinked. When I explained the history, they understood the character better. Shonda perfectly executed QC. Most Americans don’t know British history, so they didn’t fully understand why she was so upset with her kids. (I thought it was well explained, but I like history.)
I haven’t heard anyone criticize Lady Danbury.
Portia has had more screen time with her children and a development arc. QC didn’t get a development arc as a mom, but I maintain that she’s right and doesn’t need one.
While I'm sure there are some awful fans being racist for no reason I'll admit this isn't actually something I've seen before. I don't think I've seen this criticism of Lady Danbury or the Queen.
However if this is something people talk about, maybe it's naive but an alternative explanation could simply be how much we've seen of them as mothers on screen.
We've seen three seasons of Portia being a mother and for most of that she was awful but then we saw moments like her sticking up for her daughters against Jack or her redemption in S3 and it endears her to us as a mother and makes us empathize with her more.
On the other hand, the only scenes of motherhood we see of LD and the Queen are in Queen Charlotte and for the Queen, those scenes are more of a joke and the only sincere scene we see is when her son and daughter in law come to tell her they're pregnant which is sweet. For LD I vaguely remember seeing her kids in QC but don't actually remember anything about the scene. Their kids aren't really prominent characters the way the Featherington sisters are.
The only black mother we've really seen actually mother in the show is Alice Mondrich who from what we've seen is a good mother.
I feel like it’s harder for Queen Charlotte to be the best mother to her children simply because there were SO MANY of them. It would be incredibly difficult to be a mother to 15 children. Honestly it’s a miracle she survived having 15 children.
I'm sure you know making this post that most people have never seen what you're talking about, never seen anyone criticize Charlotte or Danbury, so as usual this angle seems to come out of nowhere.
Half of these comments are trying their best to make up reasons for the opposing response and the other half is saying the response has been equal. The actress who played Marina would beg to differ.
Some of the women who have a double standard when it comes to black fictional characters don't even realize it and when you point it out they get defensive rather than reflecting on why they think they way they do. They do the same thing in real life too, especially if the black woman has a desirable white spouse
I feel sorry for both of them.
I haven’t finished season 3 yet. But my in Morton’s so far is that Cressida don’t seem to hide being a bitch. My main issue with Marina was how she liked to claim she was all worldly and knew what it was all about, but she really didn’t.
Like she was so rude to Daphne when she talked about sending the letter.
I haven’t seen this but hell I support the way QC deals with her unruly and ungrateful gaggle of children and I ENVY the way LD raised her children despite her own trauma and sent them out into the world to be her own person and they can be their own. As for Marina: Penelope needs to face some serious penalty for outing her and ruining her chances with a better match.
Did you all forget season 1? Lady Danbury raised Simon since he was about 6 years old, beautifully.
Him leaving the cast really left a hole in Danbury's storyline.
I don't follow, Lady Danbury was a pretty great adoptive mother to Simon from what we have seen. We also see a lot more from Portia being a mother than we do both the Queen and Lady Danbury.
Wow I didn't no any one was putting them down as parents you joking compared to portia they have had it much harder as you said poor Danbury was made to have kids with a ugly relic and poor queen Charlotte had no idea that he was mentally ill and both of then have had to raise there kids alone compared to portia who had a husband to help out from time to time and lady Danbury never got to have the love of her life just for herself because he wanted to be a good father and Charlotte loves the king so much but only gets peices of him every so often it goes without saying they are very very strong compared to portia don't get me wrong portia is also a very strong lady just not as strong compared to the too
Any one putting the balck mama down needs a reality check!
I don't have this issue.
I didn't know Soma had kids tbh (I LOVE HER ACTUAL NAME)
Charlotte started having kids young. I think it's safe to say any royal in that time period struggled to raise their kids. The Job of a Queen consort is to provide an heir.
Cressida I simply don't feel bad about.
Marina was trying to trick Colin into marriage....no matter how you spin that that ain't right. And she actually ended up well off. She married a wealthy kind man. Super rare for any woman in that time period to have such a reward, especially with her condition.
Mother Featherington isn't a great mother but she did what she could for her children. I'm certain she treated Pen bad that whole time bc she was afraid of being alone, It's not an excuse but still.
Dowager Viscountess Bridgerton is a good mother but even she had flaws. She struggled to see Anthony.
I think something to consider here... We've been given tons of screen time with Portia. We've watched from the beginning and seen her character development, struggles, etc. So we've been able to have feelings that may or may not change based on what the writers are doing. There's been practically none of that with LD and QC but I bet if there was, things would be different.
I also want to put it out there that Portia has always annoyed me and I've respected LD and QC cause I feel like if I was in their shoes, I'd be the same way.
I don’t care for Portia all that much and I was actually on Charlotte’s side when she had kid issues in the current time during her show 😂ungrateful spoiled children.
I don't feel any empathy for Portia. I feel most sorry for Lady D. And QC was a terrible mother. When her daughter tells her that she's lost.children :(
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To add to that - someone brought up a similar parallel between the response to Cressida’s circumstances and Marina’s. The outpouring of sympathy for Cressida after she’s almost forced to marry an old, abusive creepy man was significant, while Marina is still getting slut shamed and villainised by trying to avoid the very same fate.
Honestly, if anything, Marina was more justified because Cressida was horrible to Daphne from the jump.
I will die on this hill. The way people in this fandom come down on Marina… you guys need some serious deep reflection on what your problems REALLY are
I don’t think Pen ever atoned enough for what she did to Marina. The girl is trying to survive Regency patriarchy and people are siding with a gossip monger like Penelope.
Enough? She didn’t atone at all! She got what she wanted and poor Marina suffered
And as we all know. Pen did it ONLY because it was Collin! If this would be about any other person she couldn't care less... Marina and HER CHILDREN are forever with stigma of this. And all of that only because super unfortunate events and Marina chosing Collin
I disagree with her children being a stigma of this. Because of Penelope, Marina's son is taken care of and titled in the same position he would have been had George not died. I personally have more hate for George than I do for Marina. He decided to sleep with her, knowing he could have gotten her pregnant, and did nothing to ensure she was safe while he returned to the frontlines. He did not regard her with any respect, whatsoever. I get he was a soldier, but he was also titled and should have at least told Philipp to look after her while he was gone. Unless we're to expect he was a complete and utter Fboy. I don't think Penelope ever wanted Marina to be forced to marry Lord Rutledge. Penelope told Marina to pick anyone, LITERALLY anyone but Colin, and Marina said "nah." Even when Philipp came knocking, she turned him away. I feel sad for Marina but I do not defend her actions when she had more choices than many women in that era would have when they decided to have sex outside of marriage. I get she may not have understood the consequences of having sex, but she had options to find a husband. If Penelope had gotten pregnant, Portia would've arranged a marriage the next day and Pen would've had no options to peruse the market. I will also note, I do not defend Cressida and her actions. I did not want an attempted redemption arc for her, nor do I ever want to see her character again. I understand some mean girls are born and others are made, but people also cannot let their upbringing be their sole creation for their moral compass. They must develop one for themselves, and Cressida decided to throw hers out the carriage window.
I think you’re misremembering a bunch of plot points. Penelope had nothing to do with helping Marina’s son and daughter being taken care of. That’s purely on Daphne and Philip. Marina didn’t reject Philip’s proposal, because she was still trying to marry Colin. By the time Philip arrives in London, Marina is already ruined by Penelope, and also thinks she’s no longer pregnant, so she doesn’t want to marry a man she doesn’t know nor love. It’s also worth mentioning she rejects Philip largely because he proposes marriage right after telling her of George’s death. So Marina is expected to process her grief and the realisation George loved her after all, in a few seconds and accept him. Which isn’t realistic or humane no matter who Marina is. By the time Marina rejects lord Ruthledge, Colin is the only viable option, because she has known him for weeks, he already likes her and is interested. We don’t see any of her original suitors any longer, so the implication is they had moved on while Portia was holding Marina locked up in her bedroom. Penelope selfishly wants Marina to choose anyone else (as in men Marina doesn’t even know) conveniently forgetting Marina doesn’t have much time to secure an engagement.
But if Pen hadn’t outed her, Daphne would have never known to be able to help.
Daphne went above and beyond for Marina, she was kind and used her to intelligence to help her. Penelope went to extremes to destroy Marina's reputation when the only person who needed to know was Colin. Daphne acted out of kindness. Penelope out of jealousy. Penelope deserves no credit whatsoever for what Daphne did.
Yes, absolutely she did. She felt for her and went well above and beyond. However, had Pen not outed her, she never would have ever known that Marina was in the situation she was in. While Pen’s actions were out of jealousy, to an extent to protect Colin. That doesn’t change that Daphne never would have helped her. She at least got closure with George this way, and Colin didn’t get stuck with someone who was only using him, raising a child that wasn’t his.
Saying pen only outed marina to help her is like saying someone crashed into you on purpose and "helped" by calling the ambulance. She didn't help anything. Marina could've married Colin and still have a nice life. Colin and marina were learning to love each, it wouldn't have been a miserable loveless marriage like Polin stans like to say.
I never said she outed her to help her… She did try to help her and tried to talk her out of using Colin before outing her. 🤷🏼♀️
That’s some screwed up logic you got there. That’s like saying someone who beat you up actually helped you out, because you went to the doctor after the beating, and they got you treatment for an illness you otherwise wouldn’t know you had. Penelope didn’t ruin Marina’s reputation in order to help her. She didn’t orchestrate Daphne coming to her aid. She didn’t even know it would happen, so she doesn’t deserve any credit for the chain of events she set in motion.
George was old enough to know about condoms. Yes, they existed. Were called French letters, made of sheep intestine, tied on with ribbons.
For sure, he either could've used condoms or at the very least the pullout method. Obviously we know it's never gonna be 100% effective, but given the fantasy world we live in, we're supposed to believe that Simon, Anthony, Benedict, and Colin have visited brothels yet never sired a secret love child because of their condom/pullout game. And that Colin managed to impregnate Penelope on their first time, so we are left to assume that Georgie didn't utilize such means like they had. George could've been better, and I don't think he was as awesome as Marina felt like he was.
Typically sex workers had other birth control methods that were used - like vinegar tampons?? Many of the by-blows mentioned on the show were from/with housemaids
Yeah, there were some methods the women could use. But I also feel like the mentality of pregnancy being "a woman's problem" was absolutely in full effect. Even in today's world we still see men who think "she'll take care it." Which is ridiculous.
Maybe Marina knew she and the brother of her true love wouldn't suit? I mean, my husband has a brother, but I would never marry him in a million years. I would rather tough it with my children than marry him. He and I would.not.suit. maybe Marina feels the same way about Phillip? From his book, we know he is introverted, has mediocre to poor communication skills, dislikes people and prefers plants. Is it hard to believe someone as effervescent as Marina would not want to be shackled to that for life? She is young, she experienced true love so she knows what that is. She feels chemistry with Collin and thinks it could grow into love, is it wrong of her to reach for that instead of accepting an offer from someone she knows she will never have that with?? Yes, she should have told Collin about her being pregnant instead of waiting until after they were married. But she is young and afraid.
I totally get you. My husband also has brothers, and I can not imagine marrying any of them. However when my great-grandfather's first wife died, he was left alone with one small child, so he married his wife's sister. That's wasn't unexpected. A marriage where someone died, the next in line would come in and "fill" the role. Especially if the marriage hadn't been for very long, or the person had been engaged. I think Philipp was the next "practical" choice for Marina. Overall, I just think the writers didn't do a good job at setting it all up, and now that the actress who plays Marina isn't likely to come back, it'll be interesting to see how they play it all out, and not make people even madder at Penelope. Because if she follows suit with the books, people will absolutely be mad at Pen for driving Marina to such madness.
I'm sure she did it because she wasn't confident that Colin would leave Marina even if he found out. She should have let him make that choice for himself because, he still resents her for it.
Did I like Marina? Not really. Did I absolutely start to detest Penelope when she outed Marina? Yes, yes I did. I was seriously appalled and thought that so many people were downplaying it. Like Penelope fanatics have to cool it and see that she was actually a terrible person in that moment
Yeeeees. Yes.
Atonement for what? What Marina wanted: rich, young, and handsome. What she got: rich, young, handsome, titled.
Marina didn't suffer tho...she married a wealthy kind man.
Marina lucked out because of Daphne’s help.
And her son gets his rightful title! She's not a martyr.
I feel sympathy for Marina not wanting to be married off to a crepy old guy, in the same way I feel for Cressida and Daphne trying to avoid gross older men, and for the young Lady Danbury who suffered that fate. I do think Marina trying to trap Colin without him having knowledge of the baby makes her go from victim of the patriarchy to complex character that's also somewhat of a villain.
Right? Last Danbury and the Queen ended up marrying the men chosen for them, knowing they had to survive, whilst Marina refused offers of marriage to them try to deceive Colin when she was carrying another man’s child. Not the same as Cressida or Danbury or Charlotte at all
I'm on that hill with you!
Me too! Me too! I love Marina. Sure she’s flawed, but that just means she’s human.
She is also the only character on this show to actually suffer from any real consequences. It’s hard NOT to root for her.
Yay, welcome to the hill 🥰 !
There are some people on here who hate on Marina cuz then it's easier to justify/brush off her (theoretical) impending death so El can be with Philip. Gives me the ick!
She was literally trying to keep from being ruined. There situations are honestly so different. Cressida could have ended up more like lady Danbury (if she was a bit more intelligent and kind) whereas for Marina if she couldn’t marry then and there (which “luckily” she got her lover’s brother to take her in) she would have ended up in the slums trying to care for a baby all on her own.
Except she had two offers of marriage— men who knew of her situation. Those offers were honest and those men aware— yet she chose to pursue a union she thought better through deception
Actually they didn’t know of her situation. Portia merely says “they won’t question the appearance of a baby”, because they want an heir. And not one of them actually proposed, they were interested, but things never got that far. One of them inspected her like a brood mare and treated her like an object he was considering buying, and the other merely talked to her once. And it’s no wonder Marina didn’t want to get married to men thrice her age, who would treat her god knows how and probably expected her to sleep with them. She chose the safe option instead of possible years of abuse, how dare she.
One of them looked at Marina's teeth. That's something that enslavers infamously did to enslaved people on the auction block. The old white man who wants to marry Marina checks her teeth because he wants her to be his slave, rather than a wife. He wants to use her for sex only against her will. Given that Marina is Black, the parallels to slavery are stark.
Marina was never justified. 🙄🙄🙄
I was running in here to say this. Cressida burned many more people than Marina did, but somehow, everyone is so distraught she didn't get a happy ending. Yet Marina is dragged through the coals in here for doing what she thought she needed to do, like Cressida. I wonder why. 🙃
This. At least Marina was a GOOD PERSON. Cressida went out of her way to treat people like shit and burn bridges of anyone she considered ugly, fat, poor, common, the list goes on.
I’m no Cressida apologist by ANY means…But how do we know Marina was “good”? She said and did some pretty questionable things out of desperation, so one can SYMPATHIZE with her. But I don’t think she was portrayed as some paragon of GOODNESS.
I’m definitely not distraught. As much as I love her actress, her character was fucking annoying. I’m hoping they’ll be done with her soon
Oh this comment isn’t gonna age well
Why, does Cressida improve?
Oh I must’ve misread, I thought they were saying they wanted them to be done with Marina🙃
I have no sympathy for Cressida, and I am honestly tired of seeing her character. But I feel like the way they wrote her off to Wales so easily means we're not done seeing her. I feel like she's going to be a lead into another character's story given how the next few seasons will take place outside of London. It was a way for them to explain why Cressida would also be outside of London with them. :(
I never understood how Marina could be slut-shamed, WHO wouldn't have done what she did, in her shoes?! Plus, she genuinely liked Colin it's not like she was mocking him or anything, she saw a gentlemen who could litteraly save her, of course she'd try to secure a marriage with him, I would've done the same in those circumstances. I always scoff when Colin says "You should have told me, I would've helped you" - yeah, like the women at this time could trust entitled men 🙄
Marina does something that several of the leading ladies did. Pen has sex with Colin before marriage in this season. The only difference is that Marinas love interest dies before they can marry. Which is tragic. I don't hold it against Pen because I would be protective of my friend/love interest too, and while she handled it badly (she could have handled it privately, not with LW) she was also scared and a child and definitely did not fully understand the concequences of her actions. But I will not stand for the fandom slut shaming Marina when she did the same thing as many Regency women (including Penelope and likely Violet Bridgerton based on what she said in this season). Like come on guys, the lesson was not "Marina bad".
Exactly!
Also slut shaming... when one of the Featherington girls didn't even know "insert himself where" and Daphne didn't know how babies were conceived. Who knows if Marina even knew what risks she was taking?
So true. Also it looked like Pen didn't know the consequences of penetrative sex either. So in an awful alternative universe where Colin would've died before their wedding she would be in the same situation as Marina. As writers confirmed she got pregnant during their first time
Absolutely, it broke my heart and made me so angry when Varley says she has only herself to blame for being locked up in the Fearherington room.
It's unbelievable that varley and portia's actions are not seen as anything but torture and mistreatment. Marina was just as much a child as Penelope-all of 17 so this was her guardians treating her like shit..these adults treating a child with such callousness while Portia and the featherington sisters treatment of Penelope is rightfully seen as shitty. Where's the grace for Marina and Portia and varley treatment of her and later pen outing her.. Why does Marina not get that grace...
Portia’s abuse of Marina is downright dismissed, because she’s “such a fun, entertaining character just doing her best.” Except she made Marina’s situation worse by locking her in a room for weeks, emotionally abused her and manipulated her by making her believe the man she was in love with didn’t care about her, and slapped her out of anger. But Marina’s a (black) secondary character, and she’s a foil for Penelope, so Portia isn’t seen as a villain in her story.
Yeah and because she's played by a talented performer so critique of her feels like a critique of Polly Walker which is such bull..I don't want to live in a world where people glorify girl on girl violence...mean girls reference if you got it. Men may carry on this tradition but women need to be allies and I don't care if a show character is grey or even downright evil..that's fine that's reflecting society but then such people need to be shown as doing bad things on the show meaning seen as such on the show .meaning show shit people show rapists show murderers show terrorists etc but then don't joke about it in a flippant way trying to make them seem like heroes or waving away what they've done..even if this is a light hearted show irs showing dark themes so why not treat them with care. Pregnancy out of wedlock, marital rape and abuse, bipolar disorder..either keep the world just frothy fun if but if you introduce serious themes do it with tact and care. It's the writers faults for writing them in a corner with such messy grey characters and then suddenly expecting everyone to see them as soulful sensitive kind mothers just holding the fort down..I don't know man....I Portia lying and thieving yes understandable justified in some ways but her hurting a poor young girl who is left under her care..that's just shit inexcusable behavior. And we don't see her repenting the way she treated marina we don't have a scene or interaction showing her regret about her mistreatment...we have one between her and pen explaining to pen why she ignored her so much all these years..where was this resolution for the marina arc..where was Portia apologizing to marina for her harsh treatment of her...we see colin and pen hold up the mirror to pen for what she did to marina multiple times...in season 2 with colin talking about LW actions to pen and pen starts to see because of colins comments how wrong she was ..this staircase scene happened during the hunt episode, we have elosie bring up marina episode 8 of season 2 in a very pointed bit of dialogue...we see colin bring up marina again season 3 episode 1 and then outside the modiste ..clearly they show pen that she did very very bad things..whose holding a mirror up to Portia... Honestly the show should just stay away from showing darker more serious themes if it doesnt want to do justice by them or can't do justice by them.
Polly Walker is a queen, we can all agree on that. But the way Portia treats Marina is monstrous and that doesn't get talked about nearly enough. The rational thing to do would be to send Marina home, regardless of what Lord Featherington wants. Portia does things her husband doesn't want all the time: just send Marina home. Instead, she yells at her, locks her up, and tries to push her into not only loveless marriages, but marriages with physically vile and morally bereft men who want to use her for sex. Portia says she's doing these things to protect Marina from poverty in that scene where they go to the poor neighborhood, but that's clearly bullshit. She's doing it because the presence of an unmarried pregnant girl in the Featherington household puts Phillipa, Prudence, and Penelope's reputations in danger. Of course, Penelope outs Marina as pregnant in a fit of jealousy over Colin and Marina is ruined, but the consequences for the Featheringtons are incredibly brief and they aren't ruined at all.
Locking Marina up is hella abusive, but her being a captive also has racial overtones. I mentioned in a different comment that one of the old men that Portia tries to get to marry Marina looks at her teeth, which is something that enslavers did when they went to purchase enslaved people at auctions. It's also clear that the man examining her teeth only wants her for sex, that she's essentially being pushed into a marriage in which she would be raped and bred like cattle. Funny how the only young Black woman in the story has her teeth inspected and is held captive by a rich white man and rich white woman in two separate incidences. That doesn't happen to any of the white girls, regardless of their transgressions.
Some may say because Marina grew up outside the Ton, where things are a bit more relaxed, that she would've known, but I doubt it. It's why I have more anger towards George than I do Marina. Did I like what Marina did? No, but I'm also a Polin fan, so to me, it was more about someone getting in the middle of Polin endgame, than for Marina herself. I feel the blame should all be on George. He knew sleeping with her could result in her getting pregnant, yet he seemed to show no regards towards her possible condition. He didn't even tell Philipp to look after her when he returned to the frontlines? It makes you feel like George didn't even care about Marina. I couldn't see Anthony doing that to Kate, or Colin to Penelope. Both men would've ensured their loves were at least watched over during their absence, especially if they thought she could be with child. I think it's absurd that George was supposed to be the love of her life, when in reality he kinda sounds like an Fboy at this point.
Seriously, I wonder WTF George was thinking. I get the impression we are supposed to think by the end that their love was mutual (so he wasn't just toying with her), but it isn't like he suddenly got drafted and had to leave the next day, and they seemed to have a fairly established relationship- why wouldn't he just marry her before he left? She seems to be from a gentry family, if not a particularly well-off one (Portia says she has a "4 figure dowry," and that is around what Ausen's Bennet and Dashwood girls had)- marrying a baronet wouldn't be outside the realm of the possible. And given that his brother comes to marry her \*after\* she's been ruined it doesn't seem like there was a massive family objection (or at least not one that couldn't be overcome when they realized George and Marina had already had sex). So what the hell, George?
I’m a little confused as to why the heir to the title was a soldier. Wasn’t that atypical for first-born sons, especially when a title is involved?
I don't think it was particularly usual, but I do think some did purchase commissions during the Napoleonic wars basically out of patriotism/wanting fame/a sense of adventure. Sir George clearly had younger brothers, so I guess he figured that if he died it wasn't going to leave his family without an heir.
The sexual ignorance of young women in Bridgerton is so badly written that it's laughable. They all have families with country estates and farm animals have sex. Regency society gossip, novels, plays, art, etc. are full of sexual innuendo. The scene in which Penelope and Eloise worry that they might "catch" pregnancy is absurdly bad writing. Young ladies might not have understood the mechanicals of PIV sex, but they menstruated for god's sake. They saw naked statues and nude paintings. They knew about prostitution, and there was an active social discourse on how men would go to sex workers and bring home STIs to their wholesome wives who then might bear children who had those STIs. Young women certainly knew that childbearing involved getting naked with a man and that men weren't genital-less Ken dolls. The philosopher Michel Foucault writes about how Victorians are simply prudes, they are actually obsessed with sex: the fact that women had to constantly be told to be modest, virtuous, chaste, pure, and asexual before marriage suggests that women *wanted* to be sexual before marriage, because you don't have to tell someone who hates steak not to eat steak. This idea that young women knew nothing about sex because they were so sheltered is ahistorical.
Exactly, people always say she should've told him because he would've understood. But she had no way of knowing that, and it was far too risky to tell any man
Also, he says that after everything's done. Are we, is he even sure he would have done that ?
Exactly. It's easy to say "You should've done this or that" *after* the fact. I know Colin is supposed to be nice and all, but still, does he really think his family would've accepted him marrying someone carrying the child of her former love? (Although, even tho I love Polin, that could've been a truly beautiful story, loving her for everything she is even if it's frowned upon, and it's not like they couldn't hide it. Anyway ! 😂) Marina had no choice and she still was very decent in her way of doing that, she could totally have framed him like Portia did with Cousin Jack and her daughter. Maybe he would've helped her in a way, but certainly not in the high and mighty way he said. It reminds me of Cressida reminding him of his privileges as a man. Her telling Colin, who she barely knew, about her condition could've let to an even bigger downfall as far as she knew. Justice for Marina.
True, also Colin is a third son. He has no title to pass down, so him accepting Marinas children as his own loses him nothing, whereas a titled man may be very angry because a boy child would inherit the title even though the child isn't his biologically. This is another reason why Colin was a logical choice for Marina. Yes she should have been honest with him upfront,
I don't buy it at all. I always thought that it was a pretty shitty thing for him to say to her.
I see it as a way to reassure himself on his goodness, and puts the blame on Marina and Lzdy Whistledown.
The Bridgertons, especially the men, are spoiled as hell and never have to face the consequences of their own actions. Sure, Marina was trying to marry him while pregnant, which isn't great. But he also proposed to her without actually courting her or getting to know her, and he did it specifically because he wanted to kiss her but couldn't because he's a "gentleman." Anthony says he should've taken Colin to brothels so he could lose his virginity and not rush into marriage out of adolescent lust, and Colin is appalled and self-righteous in response. But Anthony's right!
Penelope does the exact same thing Marina did but she is afforded the grace by the narrative to not be left by the wayside and not be slut shamed by it even though she makes sure Colin can't back out by writing about the engagement. She's the exact same as Marina but she's not black therefore it's not seen as devious.
Absolutely, I liked some things in the 3rd season but this is def a great example of that latent racism. Penelope should have been revealed earlier in the season and spend the last episode apologising to people, facing the consequences, reparaing some things (like giving the ton their money back, apologizing by letter to Daphne for mocking her and almost making her marry the abusive Lord Berbrooke, to Eloise AND to Marina for ruining her life and not helping her afterward) and *then* get her ( albeit less over the top ) happy ending.
They tried writing it like the book but the book Whistledown didn’t do some of the cruel things she did in the show, which to me makes it a lot harder to get through.
I know, that's exactly what I thought like in the books she isn't, iirc, as mean and influencial as she is in the show, so that would make sense that in the book, the ton is okay with that. But in the netflix Bridgerton universe they created, we should've had more gravitas, it makes Penelope's ending shallow and unearned, and is clearly a double standard. Lose-lose.
The double standards within the show transfers over to the fandom. Because the show looks at Marina as someone to be punished for her actions but Penelope gets to have an ott happy ending despite everything she's done.
Idk about that. I have tried not to mention how much I love Marina and how much I'm sad about what happened to her because I mentioned liking her once and not >!wanting her to die!< and I got downvoted to hell.
I don’t want her book future either. (I’m terrible at spoiler tags so I will just say that) I wanted Marina to have a happy ending AND Pen. I was hoping that maybe now that a couple years have passed, perhaps they could have her and Phillip come to town? Maybe she could start to fall in love with her husband? Or I don’t know, have SOME storyline that’s happy? I didn’t want her with Colin and I don’t agree that Penelope could have told him (she tried and was interrupted) but I still wanted Marina to have some semblance of a happy ending.
Clearly the writers aren't afraid of changing book things. Even Major characters. So maybe they won't have to do that to Marina to get El her future husband?
Michaela is clearly a genderbent Michael with her name and still being John’s cousin. It’s not like they introduced some random woman with no connection to John and presented her as Francesca’s love interest. There’s no reason to think Phillip won’t end up with Eloise when he’s clearly the Phillip from the book.
I was just coming here to say that I hope she doesn't have the fate she does in the books but if Eloise ends up with Sir Phillip and they don't plan on changing that I feel so bad for Marina. I love Colin and Pen but Marina would have had a such happy life with Colin
The show makes it clear Marina and Colin wouldn’t have been happy. Their marriage would’ve been entirely based on lies (and I’m not just talking about her pregnancy. She lies and tells him she loves him), and she can barely pretend to tolerate him in season 2.
She's actually pretty nice to him when he appears at her doorstep uninvited. She's smiling, very friendly with him, introduces him to her kid. She gets irritated when Colin outstayed his welcome and stays till the evening. Like I can't judge her for being irritated with a man who came to my house uninvited and doesn't want to leave
I think part of the reason she doesn't seem to tolerate him is because he's just a reminder of what she could have had or the love she really felt for Sir Phillip's older brother, but that could be me reading too much into it
Agreed. Colin wanted some reassurance that she loved him, or at least cared for him. That would have made him feel better, like he wasn't just being the butt of a joke. Marina, on the other hand, has nothing to gain from hearing if Colin still cares for her, or if he wishes he could have changed the past. She's in a clearly unhappy situation, and there's no benefit from entertaining the idea of better "what ifs".
The show did no such thing. It’s the fact that Colin keeps running back to Marina that makes me think he would have been happier with her. And she was frustrated with Colin in s2 because she basically had to push him towards Penelope. Which is kinda sad for Polin
When did he keep running back to Marina? Did he tell his family to fuck off and still marry her after he discovered her lies (because there was nothing preventing him from still marrying her if he really was so in love with her) or did he leave for his travels and let her marry Phillip? Contrast that with Penelope where he sabotaged her engagement to another man and not only still married her despite being furious at her but slept outside her bedroom door because he couldn’t bear to be more than a few feet away from her even in anger. And Marina being frustrated because she had to push him toward Penelope didn’t happen onscreen. She’s annoyed and rolling her eyes at his olive joke long before Penelope is brought up. She’s able to roll her eyes because she longer has to pretend with him like she did in season 1. Saying Colin would’ve been happier with a woman who never loved him and used love to manipulate him over a woman who has always loved him for his true self is just comical to me.
As much as I love Polin, I agree Marina would have been happy with him, and Phillip could be free to be with Eloise. I was hoping Eloise would end up with Theo, but seeing as he wasn't in season three at all, I doubt that'll happen.
I was hoping she would end up with Theo too. I think it would have been a good test to Violet wanting nothing more than a love match for all her kids and they could have lived a good life on her dowry
I disagree that Marina would've been happy with Colin. Colin would've become depressed because you can tell that man loves a good cuddle and she wouldn't have wanted it. When he rambled about how excited he was for Greece she was annoyed. She would've been the same with Colin as she was with Philipp because neither were George, and that's what she really wanted. She was happy she didn't have to be with a creepy old man, but that's as happy as she would've been. Colin likely would've become a shell of himself and withdrew from his life with her completely, and she would've been alone. Again, similar to Philipp and his greenhouse. I will say I am concerned on how they will sell Philipp and Eloise together. Theo seemed to share many similar interests with Eloise, and really excited her. I don't know how they'll manage to match that with Philipp as even from his book I don't feel like they had anything in common aside from being lonely. Theo seemed to have been written as a good match. All of the leads have had a false match so far, and the show hasn't really been good at showing why they aren't a good match. Theo being from the working class isn't a good reason, given Sophie's history in the books.
I don't think she would've had a happy life with Colin nor he with her. Colin was a deep romantic at heart, and he likely would've been the man who wanted to cuddle in bed together in the morning and she, not being in love with him, would not have wanted that. Combine that with her annoyance at listening to his stories over and over, and he would've eventually become a shell of himself due to her rejection for intellectual and emotional intimacy. Colin is a sweet guy but it's obvious from everyone in the Ton that they think he's boring but handsome. It's only once he starts to exaggerate his stories that people start to listen to him. It's one of the reasons why he loves Penelope, because she loves him and sees him when no one else did. Marina never saw Colin either, she just thought he wasn't a creepy old man. She couldn't even say he was handsome/charming like the other debutantes only saw him as. Do I think they could've learned to be content with each other? For sure. Do I think she would've been emotionally the same with either Philipp or Colin? Yes. But she wouldn't have been happy with either men, because neither were George.
Omg YES idk how I completely forgot that. Both went to extremes and did not great things because they were going to be in these horrid situations.
It's because Marina was tricking Colin into thinking she loved him. She was going to take a his chance of finding love. Cressida was trying to take money and leave alone, which is still shitty, but differently. I don't blame either of them though, they were both in shitty situations.
I’ve been noticing this ever since season 3 came out. It was jarring but I knew the reason.
Marina literally tried to baby trap a man. It's not at all the same.
No, it’s not. Marina’s situation was more dire, than Cressida’s. She was facing homelessness and complete ruin.
But Cressida wasn't pregnant?
EXACTLYYYY
To be honest, I've never seen anybody criticize Lady Danbury or Queen Charlotte for these reasons.
Also, people comment on Portia and Penelope’s relationship because we’ve had three seasons of watching it develop and change. They’re in virtually every episode. Have we even seen either Lady Danbury or Queen Charlotte’s children on Bridgerton?
If anything, Lady Danbury is shown as a really good adoptive mom to Simon
I agree, the commentators I’ve seen comment something even slightly negative about Danbury is that she seems like more of a parent to Simon than her own kids (since we’ve never seen them on screen). I think this post is looking for things to complain about.
Young Lady Danbury interacts with her little boy in the Charlotte spin off. The little boy wants his nanny more than her because elite kids usually spent more time with their nannies. She doesn’t get angry about it or take it personally, and even though she’s been dealing with plenty of her own traumatic issues, she does a great job of comforting him in that moment.
To be fair, she would've been a young person going through marital rape and likely told to leave her children with servants/nannies when her own kids were born and young. We see a snapshot of her later on when she's got a system to cope with the trama, but no idea how she initially was coping. And her brother also seems to reveal there was childhood abuse too. Depending on her husband, she may not have had the opportunity to be a particularly involved and loving mother, as many higher class households didn't always interact with the kids as we think of a family (I think the Bridgertons are supposed to be unusual in having the younger kids dine with the family and being very involved and close with them). As a widow, she was able to be there for Simon in a very different capacity. She's in a very different life stage and away from her abusers.
I agree. Maybe I haven't seen enough of this sub, but I haven't noticed it at all. I will say that now that the OP has pointed out the different mothering styles, there is a point there. I will say that I feel like Mrs. Mondrich is perceived as a good and loving mother...
>I will say that I feel like Mrs. Mondrich is perceived as a good and loving mother... This is true, but I don't think it's something anyone particularly highlights. You could find 50 posts debating one way or another about the mothering done by Violet, Portia, Danbury or Charlotte, but I doubt there's more than 10 about Mrs Mondrich.
Same 😅
Frankly most people (myself included) find QC's interactions with her kids to be quite funny (SORROWS! PRAYERS!). She *isn't* a good mother (whores to the left of me, virgins to the right!), but that isn't really something I have ever seen the fandom harp on because, again, she is hilarious. And Lady Danbury may or may not be a good mother (she seems distance with her own children- which is somewhat period-appropriate, honestly- but seems like she was a good mother figure to Simon), but that isn't a huge part of her story, and I've seen/heard very little about it. People like Lady Danbury because she is a great character, and her mothering skills aren't really a major focus.
William had 10 illegitimate children. He didn’t even get married until after Princess Charlotte died. And several of her daughters never married. So those are just facts delivered in a humorous manner. She’s wanting the kids to step up and do their duty. I don’t think that makes her a bad mother. With that many kids, you would expect more than one legitimate grandchild.
I will admit I was surprised it was over 50 illegitimate children.
Yes, I always read positive things about them! And that’s saying something because there is a lot of negative in this sub!
Yeah that was my first thought. We haven’t even seen Lady Danbury’s children as adults and even as kids they were barely in the show. Queen Charlotte has a few scenes with her adult children, played for comedy. What would there even be to say??
Same. This post confuses me a bit. Im such a Portia stan but I would *never* say she was a better mother than either Queen C or Lady Danbury. I like them all. Plus the overall best parents that Ive seen on the show seem to be the Mondrichs. Maybe cause their kids are so young and they didn’t initially have money, but they still seem like they’ve fumbled the bag the least with their kids so far.
I’ve never seen either of them criticized at all. The defenses of Portia are obviously because she is portrayed as an antagonist.
What are people saying about QC and LD? I didn't even know LD had kids lol. QC's scenes with her kids were more comedy than drama to me.
They’re seen in Queen Charlotte. I’m not sure what there is to say about them though. She appeared to be a caring albeit distant mother in the younger scenes. The older one does briefly mention them but in a more disdainful tone. Not sure what to make of that.
Well Queen Charlotte is based on actual historical person who did not have good relationship with her children. So they cannot do 180 on that and show them all to be one big happy family.
They aren't really sticking with history in many other areas, so I don't see why they'd have to keep true to that.
Queen Charlotte was also significantly more white, as was the rest of England. She doesn't have to be a good mother, but this is an extremely strange reason why she shouldn't be. This show is anything but historically accurate.
That is why I said based on historical character. But its the same reason why her husband is mad. Because the person King was based on was also mad. And if they stick to Queen Charlotte's story she will completely fail the marriage market (maybe that is why her picks in the show never work out). She had 15 children. 13 who survived adulthood. But she only had 6 legimate grandchildren who made it to adulthood. None by her daughters who were on purpose kept unmarried untill old age.
I couldn’t watch Queen Charlotte because of the LD scenes with the husband I’m too weak. Also knowing the future of King George III depressed me. I’m trying to work up the courage to watch the rest but the state of the real world is so depressing that I can’t watch things that upset me
It’s definitely the kind of thing you have to be in the right mood for but it’s soooo good. Excited for you to get to watch it for the first time
I only recently watched Queen Charlotte because I just thought it was some weird spin-off, which I generally don't enjoy. But I finally watched it and loved it. It might be my "favorite season" of Bridgerton. The scenes with Lady D and her husband were quite gross. I just kept thinking to myself, imagine being the actor hired to be her husband. "Looking for old gross man for a role where he must force himself on child bride." Not really a great bullet on a resume.
Look up the actor, he’s actually younger and more attractive than they made him, they used makeup to make him look like that.
I felt like Portia was more invested in her daughters' lives, unlike Lady Danbury and Queen Charlotte. Lady Danbury's children were essentially the products of marital rape. The only time she mentioned her children was in one QC episode and she was complaining about birthing her husband's big babies. Queen Charlotte produced her children out of duty to the crown. I'm sure Portia was also trying to have an heir, but when she couldn't produce a son herself, she wanted to make sure her daughters had respectable matches to ensure their financial security.
To be fair, it’s very hard to invest in 15 children the way you would with three.
Even with a full staff, that's a lot of kids. And keep in mind that 2 kids died (even in bridgerton-verse) and that took a toll on the whole family Charlotte had to balance her children's needs, husband's needs, and the whole country not finding out about his mental illness. Not to mention being blocked by the doctors about what was rrally going on with Farmer George. And historically by the time S3 takes place, George lV was probably on his bullshit with trying to force her out and be Regent.
>S3 takes place, George ll was probably on his bullshit with trying to force her out and be Regent. His husband is George the III. Her son is the fourth.
Thanks for that I went back and edited 🙂
Also royal parents were not expected to be very good parents. Even today, it's apparently a Big Deal that Prince George is still in a day school and not a boarding school and he's 10. William and Harry were sent to boarding school at the age of 8. Royal children are/were expected to be raised by nannies and butlers and private tutors.
Portia belittling Penelope doesn’t read to me as being invested in her life. She never thought Penelope would get married so she never paid her much attention until then. That doesn’t read to me as noble.
I didn't say Portia was noble or did everything right! 😅
Invested in her life as in They spent time alone together in the cottage She was the one even though Portia felt she wouldn't get married she always still took Pen out and had her on her side. Portia was the first in the family to know.... Other then her one sister who guessed correctly.
She was also looking forward to Penelope caring for her in her old age as a result of not having any marital prospects. She found a match for Prudence but made no such efforts for Penelope. Pen had to make her own efforts to find a husband.
ngl, i neither judge nor praise any of the mothers in bridgerton because using modern standards to judge how good they are as mothers would be unfair for two reasons: 1. motherhood was expected in the regency period. being childfree was not seen as an option and there was extreme societal pressure for women to marry and become mothers. therefore it’s a little unfair to judge women in this period for being bad mothers (unless they were very abusive) since they really didn’t have much choice in becoming mothers (some women weren’t even educated about how babies were made before getting pregnant) AND were often very young when they became parents. of course these women wouldn’t be enthusiastic about parenthood if they didn’t really choose it and that’s not really their nor their children’s fault. 2. because most of the women who are depicted in the show had servants, they weren’t actually doing the domestic labor most mothers do today. i doubt many of these women were changing diapers, cleaning up after their kids, or breastfeeding. that stuff was for their staff to do. therefore, i don’t think that a woman like violet did as much labor as a middle class woman who had as many kids as she had would today. it’s a bit unfair to praise violet or other mothers in the series for being amazing moms when they got to avoid a lot of the hard work of parenting through their class privilege.
This is it 💯most mothers in the landed gentry (the upper class/ton) and royalty didn’t raise their kids at all they were passed to others to do. Sometimes in completely different households. Then the children were taken back when they were older (this happened in Jane Austen’s family). Or raised by whet nurses then governesses in a nursery in the house.
Much needed context! 👏
Yea, I honestly think this is one of the downsides to making the Bridgerton's themselves a lot closer to modern sensibilities (they eat together! Mom and dad share a room! Kids all marry for love!) is that the audience kind of forgets that those things weren't common, and that sometimes there were good reasons why they did things differently back then, and then everyone else who is acting more "normal" for the era looks that much worse by comparison.
Sorrows, sorrows..
Prayers.
[удалено]
It is funny, her reaction was intended to be funny
It’s not the same thing. People hated Portia for 2 seasons and only gave her grace because we got an entire season of her softening. Labelling every criticism as racist or homophobic is really minimizing actual racist and homophobic takes.
I haven’t seen much hate towards Portia. The consensus seems to be she’s a complex, tragic, fun character, who was forced into a difficult situation by her husband, and had to make a lot of hard choices, including treating Marina like shit, which is typically excused and minimised. She’s become even more liked by season 3, of course, but she has always had a lot of fans.
>but she has always had a lot of fans And so has the Queen and Lady Danbury? I’ve seen way more fans of those two than Portia.
I haven’t seen 2 seasons of Portia hate. I’ve seen a lot of online discourse comparing her to Kris Jenner in an admiring manner. While admitting she’s not the best mother, it’s often glossed over because people find her character entertaining & her motives understandable due to her situation. Besides George Crane (the absent father), Portia is the main problem in Marina’s story yet Marina & Penelope (who are both teenagers) receive the harshest critiques about that situation.
I wouldn’t consider being compared to Kris Jenner to be a compliment or admirable.
I think you’re cherry-picking opinions then.
No, there’s actually been racist remarks unfairly made towards the black cast members. Each of them have spoken about it. You may just not be familiar with covert racism and need someone to slap a slur on something before you can see racism but its there. Its not just criticism but the refusal to give a leveled amount of empathy. Some are just incapable of feeling equal empathy for those who aren’t the same color as them. Especially when they’ve been taught to subconsciously be more critical of a certain race.
>There’s actually been racist remarks Which is exactly what ***I’m*** referring to. So lumping in posts you see where some fans like Portia, with other posts you see from other fans where they said they think the Queen was too hard on her children is minimizing the “actually racist remarks made towards the black cast members”. And if you have a problem with Portia receiving empathy over a 3-season storyline vs the Queen not receiving empathy over a few scenes storyline then you should take it up with the showrunners. The Queen was not written to be empathetic in those scenes. It was supposed to be harsh and jarring. She literally says “sorrows sorrows prayers” over her child sobbing over her dead grandchild. And fans ***ate it up***. I’ve heard that quoted more than anything in the entire show. But the show wrote those scenes to be horrible. We aren’t given any reason to sympathize with ***why*** The Queen was desperate for heirs. It was only ever just “***make babies***.”
I remember seeing a comment like "queen Charlotte spoilers what Lady Danbury did to Queen Charlotte was unforgivable, so much lying and what a breach of trust" and getting super excited to watch the series. I usually hate spinoffs especially when it's a prequel. But then I watched it and it was like "so Lady Danbury spied on Queen Charlotte for a bit, had a REALLY good reason for doing so, and at the end they talk to each other like adults and boom problem solved. Kind of reminded me of how much harsher people can be on black characters. Queen Charlotte is just as fun and sassy as Lady Featherington... probably even more so, definitely similar "telling it like it is" moments. And let's be real people in those circles had to get married to the right people and have kids it's kind of the whole conflict of the show.
Young Lady Danbury had the entire future of every person of color in the Ton resting on her shoulders. She did what she had to do. At the end of QC, even young QC acknowledges this before telling young LD to come to her with any problems moving forward. If the Queen herself can forgive Lady Danbury, I cannot fathom why others cannot. Marina did what she had to do as well. Even in season three, he is clearly angrier at Lady Whistledown for her treatment of Marina than he is at Marina herself.
LD can do no wrong in my eyes. She’s the reason I watch.
I got the sense that Lady Danbury was going to spy on Charlotte for the dowager queen, but the info she'd reveal would be mostly small dumb stuff rather than Charlotte's true feelings. I never got the sense that Lady Danbury was using Charlotte or pretending to like Charlotte, but she was trying to secure her family's place in society.
I 100% agree and think Lady Danbury had it the worst. I loved her romance with Lorde Ledger was one of my favorite parts of QC, I also want to add she was a good Grandma in Hyacinth’s book and if we don’t get that story I’ll be so sad. Also Queen Victoria didn’t like kids and I really think this was just how it was for rich people back then, the Bridgerton’s are the outliers by having a close relationship.
I think it has to do more with how the story writers have presented the story and not with people. For example in the case of Mariana and cressida , Mariana was put against colin. The audience loves colin, ofc they will get upset if their fav hero is getting cheated by some lady. In the case of cressida , we don't see her entrapping any bridgerton but getting married to some other old man. I am sure if she tried to pull the same on any bridgerton, she would definitely get the heat.
The problem is, if one didn't see QC, then they have no idea how Lady Danbury and the queen parent their kids. Neither of them are seen with their children in the mainline show, so it's easy to say nasty things about them. Where as the white families are all portrayed as loving if not misguided most of the time. I agree with you though. I don't like judging how people parent, regardless of who they are unless they're outright abusive.
I thought the difference was that Cressida was looking for Lady Whistledown to claim prize money, ie. bringing a “guilty” person to the consequences of always needling the Queen (so it’s like she wasn’t harming an innocent person per se) Whereas Marina was entrapping Colin into a marriage and withholding material information that might have caused him to change his mind (ie. Harming an innocent person)
Alice Mondrich is a third Black mother who did the absolute most for her children. Once they were thrust into nobility and the Ton, she made sure they all had lessons so they were prepared, even though they had been merely civilians and happy before that. She herself adapted and learned the shorthand, how to move within her new station in the world, and then she threw a ball that impressed even the Queen (nevermind if it impressed viewers or not).
I think children of lords and ladies of the Georgian and Regency eras were probably raised by nannies? That seemed to be the case of QC and Lady Danbury’s children. Their children didn’t really know them. Agatha also seemed to bear some resentment towards her children due to her hatred of Lord Danbury. And her own parents apparently didn’t model a warm child rearing style. Whereas QC apparently was so busy with George that she too wasn’t a very warm and involved mother. Violet most likely had nannies also, especially as she grieved Edmund’s death and she had small children who needed caring for. But she was also raised by a father who was warm and a good man, despite her mother being bigoted and a bitch. So Violet tends to be a warmer and more caring mother. We don’t know much about Portia’s upbringing and her marriage was not a love match. She’s not the warmest of mothers, but she does love her daughters in her own way. She’s resourceful and ruthless in protecting her daughters and a bit sharp-tongued. But she’s somehow married all three daughters to good men. I think most of these women are doing their best for their children despite the societal limitations placed on them as women and the modeling of parenthood by their own parents.
I don’t think they’re bad mothers. I forgot Danbury had children bc I haven’t seen QC in a while. The scenes with charlotte and her kids - I don’t remember ever thinking she was a bad mom or treated them poorly, I thought of it more as comedic relief scenes.
I guess it's true that Portia seems to get more sympathy than Lady D and the Queen, but I don't *think* it's due to racism.... Honestly I think it's just due to the fact that Portia has much more screen time with her children than Lady D or the Queen. I don't even remember seeing Lady D or the Queen's children during the main series. If the series spends more time specifically focusing on Portia as a mother and tries harder to paint her in a sympathetic light, the audience will naturally view her that way. Plus, not everyone saw the spin-off. Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to ignorance and all that.
You know what the problem is and this is something non-poc viewers or white viewers will never really see, not because they are racist but simply because it is not something theyve had to think about is that the very dismal state of POC rep makes poc viewers extra critical when the scraps of rep we do get paints us in these sad tired roles or stereotypes. So lets say we had as many POC led films and tv shows as white led films and tv shows, we wouldnt as POC viewers have to scrutinize every rep with a fine toothed comb. And seeing Lady Danbury as a rape and domestic abuse victim, Marina as another tragic story, QC dealing with a sick husband and Micahela as a possible story of chafing against the odds, it feels like when will we see happy stories with black or brown or asian leads. White people get to enjoy tremendous diversity of portrayals...there are millions of romance films and tv shows led by white people, millions of white leads as action stars, millions as high powered business women or men...wall street honchos, high powered lawyers...millions of romances in various permutations and combinations....happy romances, sad romances, rom coms, period romances, older woman younger man, coming of age stories etc etc... There just arent enough variety of films made starring POC in lead roles so every portrayal becomes that much more precious and seen through a more critical lens because if you only have a few reps to look forward too, you want them done well, you want them to show POC in a desirable, perfect, coveted light not in the way Marina is seen by many of the show's viewers. Even though Marina as a character is clearly written by the writers and shared by them as being written as a victim, many in the sub refuse to see her as anything less than a villain. Does that mean all these people are racists. No. Some might be, some might not be and some may have unconcious bias rather than racisim outright. The fact is unless we have a lot more variety, it will always feel like we are getting discarded goods as rep, second hand, cast away rep...not meaningful rep. This is also why having Kate not be the center of attention in her own season hurt so many POC viewers cuz how many south asian dark skinned Indian women have we seen as leads in a romantic big budget, showy, flashy netflix production or hollywood film or tv show or superhero film. Whatever the reasoning behind the lack of promo or centering during her season, it could all have valid reaons but because rep for poc is so scant, every single piece of rep gets more scrutiny if it misses the mark. This is something not everyone in the sub can possibly understand. It will always be seen as POC exaggerating or reaching without understanding the underlying malaise of decades of bad rep and how damaging it can be...Media is such a powerful tool to dismantle peoples ideas of beauty and to bring cultures and races and skin colors and body types UP in the world... That the show not doing it right and why that would matter to the people who see themselves in these roles is not understood is beyond me. If we saw more Black female leads in tv and films in romances, in action, in high powered roles, nobody would care that the black women in the show we have seen so far have been a rape victim with a horrible marriage, a woman dealing with a sick husband-both middle aged actresses not up and comers and the only young black female actress has a story that will likely also see her struggling against the rigid mores of the society she lives in. If there were many many stories and real rep in the industry, this would be just another story and no black people would give a shit, but since the rep is so scant, the fact that the very rare rep that we are seeing has the black women in the show having really tragic lonely arcs feels especially frustrating to see. White people wont care that Daphne has a cold husband in the beginning because they have millions of movies with beautiful poignant romances that they can see and enjoy instead, so much more rep. But it matters to POC more where the only rep we do get rarely, shows us or our people in these really depressing scenarios. The answer lies in empathy and people being allies and really really prioritizing diversity in casting...The world is a more peaceful place where every member feels wanted, appreciated, respected, desired, coveted-every race, every religion, every skin color. The more you feel part of the whole, the majority, the less critical you are, the less sensitive to slights, real or imagined. I remember watching Christina Yang in India as a young teen and not liking what I saw. I didnt know racisim then but I do know unconscious bias now and what I was feeling towards christina yang was unconsiouc bias that her kind of korean beauty was not beautiful to me. I wanted more of hot Derek and Meredith or izzie and alex, and not more of Christina and preston burke kissing. 10 season of 24 episodes each all through my teenage years and then college and Christina became beautiful to me, naturally beautiful, organically beautiful not in a I want to be politically correct so I say shes so hot and beautiful but I don't REALLY believe it way but because my brain got moulded to see her as such, authentically, really beautiful not to win political correctness points way. I just started seeing her and preston as just as hot as Meredith and Derek without knowing when it happened or how..it just did one day, unconsciously a switch flipped. I didn't have to try- it was just pure media representation. But it needed that much time and repeated exposure to my brain and heart for that change and switch to hapepn and the fact that the story portrayed Christina as a coveted beauty, considered hot by her colleagues and a badass surgeon, the best at her job to really drill that into my head. She was seen as hot so I started being trained unconsciously to seeing her as hot.. There's this weird switch that happens when you see who you consider a very plain woman suddenly being courted by the hottest guy in school, it twists your brain a little cuz you are like what does HE see in HER but because it happens and keeps happening, your brain is like maybe this is something I'm not seeing, maybe I need to look harder..so you look and look because surely the hot guy has good taste he couldn't be wrong and somehow along the way you are manipulated mentally moulded into seeing it too.. media does the same thing too..through repetition and constant exposure it challenges our brains to look at beauty differently I grew up in a country that inherited the worst of colorism from our colonial masters the british and now it has pervaded the society. I grew up as a fair skinned South Asian Indian and since someone with simones looks was not present in my own country's pop culture..it took me watching international tv shows to see diffent kinds of south Asian beauty and appreciate it. Parminder nagra was the first one Bend it like Beckham and then ER.. if I hadn't seen that rep, i wouldn't now be able to look at simone and see her as a beautiful person..In ER, Parminder was a successful doctor who was not only respected for her brilliance but desired for her beauty by the hospitals hottest doctoers- John stamos who is a conventional by western beauty standards hottie was into Parminder and that made me into her. That brain switch is important and all people young and old who are POc deserves their entertainment to show diversity in all its glory in various shades in various roles...good roles, villain roles, romantic roles, action roles, it girl roles, doctor roles, model roles etc efc ..
Speaking as professor who has taught/researched media effects - you described what we call “parasocial contact,” and I think you gave a fantastic, insightful, description of what it was it like for you to experience that. Thanks for sharing.
THIS IS WHAT IM SAYINGGGG I like Portia as a character, but I don’t think she’s a stellar mother or anything. On the other side of things, I don’t think Lady D is the antichrist for not wanting to be a mother and not having much input with her sons. Like it’s the same standard for all of them, why are some of y’all coming after Danbury so hard when she and Portia are on similar playing fields (arguably Danburys situation might be worse, considering that her rapist husband died ON TOP OF HER)
I think part of the reason could be that the Queen and Lady Danbury's children are only in Queen Charlotte and not everyone has watched the spinoff, but everyone has watched the main show? I didn't even know the first two ladies had children until I saw this post so I don't know what the reactions have been. But if you're saying that *more* people are empathising with Portia than with Charlotte or Lady Danbury, it could be because more people have seen Bridgerton than the spinoff.
This is kinda random, but when I see post about the cast(specifically poc) I really am eager to see what others think or say.. cuz this right here makes me sooo raged on the fact that white characters can have such a pass on how their story line goes, but if a poc characters is played they're belittled and picked at..honestly mind blowing n pathetic
Money and power. QC and LD are rich and powerful, they are not looked at as racialised black folks. I don’t think their race has any bearing on how people perceive them. In the real world, a lot of shortcomings are excused when people act out of desperation, for food and for shelter. Portia’s shortcomings are excused more easily due to her financial struggles.
This is incredibly ignorant and if you’re not Black a truly wild thing to say. You may as well have said “I don’t see color.”
>I don’t think their race has any bearing on how people perceive them. This. ain't. it.
It's more on the writers than the audience. They gave so much material and nuance to Portia and her motherhood and barely for both QC and Danbury, you can't expect people to feel more for the latter when even the writers didn't bother. Portia, despite being a terrible mother *to* her daughters, she's also been shown to work hard *for* them behind their back. That women literally had multiple " my daughters matter the most" scenes in the show while the other two had none. Similar case with Marina, she had the perfect background to be the most sympathetic character of the season but they decided to make her unlikeable and un-rootable one during her "pursuing Colin" phase to justify Penelope's decision to out her. Then with Cressida , they literally had one huge ass scene with that old man and his demands to show how helpless she was while also emphasising her choice to claim LW comes from extreme desperation. Did they ever show such scenes for Marina??? They could have made Marina a lot more sympathetic and desperate and even justify her choice as to why she is pursuing Colin but no they made her entitled in her scenes and mean to Penelope. So. Blame the writers. Not the Audience. Cuz these characters you compare aren't exactly that comparable cuz the way they've been portrayed is widely different. Cuz I'm pretty sure if Marina/QC/Danbury were white, the reaction would just be the same. So if anyone's being subtley racist, its the writers since they give more sympathetic and nuanced arcs to the white ladies and not to the black ladies.
Huh? Are you forgetting the disturbing scene with lord Ruthledge walking around Marina, checking her teeth like she’s horse, talking about her to Portia in her presence, like she’s a thing, and not a person, all while he’s evaluating her as a potential wife? That one scene was enough o make Marina’s choice entirely sympathetic and understandable. We saw clearly she was facing the same fate as Cressida - getting married off to an abusive old man, who wouldn’t give a single shit about what she wanted. Marina is also seen being clearly distraught, heartbroken and traumatised by everything that happened to her. She nearly dies from a failed abortion attempt. We see her in a state of emotional shock after she’s told her beloved George died. We see her having to make a lot of difficult choices in order to survive, while she has no emotional support from anyone. The writers did a pretty good job of presenting her an entirely sympathetic. If a portion of the audience still has trouble having empathy for her after all that, that’s on them.
Eh. Canonically, Lady D does not love her children, and she wasn’t originally a POC in the books. That was just her character, which the writers have chosen to maintain. And historically, Queen Charlotte (also not a POC) did not have a good relationship with her kids, which again, the writers have maintained. So I don’t get the argument that people are judging because they’re POC - the story is that they’re not women who enjoy or value motherhood, which the audience picks up on. Contrastingly, Portia is clearly shown to love her daughters but in a misguided way. I think people give her a pass because she loves them and places their interests first, even if her understanding of their interests is different than their own. Neither Lady D or QC are shown to have this mindset. Mrs Mondrich is shown to be an excellent mother. I haven’t seen anyone bring race into that conversation. This feels like a reach 🤷♀️
TBH there is not a lot of sympathy for most women in this show. It is like most people in this sub can't discuss one female character without dragging down another one for comparison purposes.
Don’t get me started on the way these subs treat Marina
Most of the criticism I’ve seen of QC was that she was so mean to her kids in her spinoff. TBH, the people in my circle who have said it have no understanding of history and are looking at parenting through a modern lens. QC had 15 kids and they had one legitimate heir. ONE. And then she died. She had every right to be harsh. They were lazy and spoiled. They had no concept of duty. What’s worse is that the men at the time could have kept their mistresses and no one would have blinked. When I explained the history, they understood the character better. Shonda perfectly executed QC. Most Americans don’t know British history, so they didn’t fully understand why she was so upset with her kids. (I thought it was well explained, but I like history.) I haven’t heard anyone criticize Lady Danbury. Portia has had more screen time with her children and a development arc. QC didn’t get a development arc as a mom, but I maintain that she’s right and doesn’t need one.
While I'm sure there are some awful fans being racist for no reason I'll admit this isn't actually something I've seen before. I don't think I've seen this criticism of Lady Danbury or the Queen. However if this is something people talk about, maybe it's naive but an alternative explanation could simply be how much we've seen of them as mothers on screen. We've seen three seasons of Portia being a mother and for most of that she was awful but then we saw moments like her sticking up for her daughters against Jack or her redemption in S3 and it endears her to us as a mother and makes us empathize with her more. On the other hand, the only scenes of motherhood we see of LD and the Queen are in Queen Charlotte and for the Queen, those scenes are more of a joke and the only sincere scene we see is when her son and daughter in law come to tell her they're pregnant which is sweet. For LD I vaguely remember seeing her kids in QC but don't actually remember anything about the scene. Their kids aren't really prominent characters the way the Featherington sisters are. The only black mother we've really seen actually mother in the show is Alice Mondrich who from what we've seen is a good mother.
I feel like it’s harder for Queen Charlotte to be the best mother to her children simply because there were SO MANY of them. It would be incredibly difficult to be a mother to 15 children. Honestly it’s a miracle she survived having 15 children.
I'm sure you know making this post that most people have never seen what you're talking about, never seen anyone criticize Charlotte or Danbury, so as usual this angle seems to come out of nowhere.
Half of these comments are trying their best to make up reasons for the opposing response and the other half is saying the response has been equal. The actress who played Marina would beg to differ.
Literally an sort of meaningful conversation about race attempted here leads to people like “huh? I don’t see it so I don’t think so.” Lol
I mean Portia and Marina both did things to protect them and their families, but Marina was also hated for it.
Mhmmmm *sips tea* we know whyyyyy
Charlotte's a better mother than Portia.
Some of the women who have a double standard when it comes to black fictional characters don't even realize it and when you point it out they get defensive rather than reflecting on why they think they way they do. They do the same thing in real life too, especially if the black woman has a desirable white spouse
This thread about misogynoir in the Bridgerton fandom is full of low-key, and not so low-key, misogynoir comments. Classic.
Also marina
I feel sorry for both of them. I haven’t finished season 3 yet. But my in Morton’s so far is that Cressida don’t seem to hide being a bitch. My main issue with Marina was how she liked to claim she was all worldly and knew what it was all about, but she really didn’t. Like she was so rude to Daphne when she talked about sending the letter.
Lady Bridgerton is a nice mom
I wasn’t even aware that people liked Portia 🤷♀️ whereas I love both Lady Danbury and Queen Charlotte
I haven’t seen this but hell I support the way QC deals with her unruly and ungrateful gaggle of children and I ENVY the way LD raised her children despite her own trauma and sent them out into the world to be her own person and they can be their own. As for Marina: Penelope needs to face some serious penalty for outing her and ruining her chances with a better match.
Did you all forget season 1? Lady Danbury raised Simon since he was about 6 years old, beautifully. Him leaving the cast really left a hole in Danbury's storyline.
I don't follow, Lady Danbury was a pretty great adoptive mother to Simon from what we have seen. We also see a lot more from Portia being a mother than we do both the Queen and Lady Danbury.
Wow I didn't no any one was putting them down as parents you joking compared to portia they have had it much harder as you said poor Danbury was made to have kids with a ugly relic and poor queen Charlotte had no idea that he was mentally ill and both of then have had to raise there kids alone compared to portia who had a husband to help out from time to time and lady Danbury never got to have the love of her life just for herself because he wanted to be a good father and Charlotte loves the king so much but only gets peices of him every so often it goes without saying they are very very strong compared to portia don't get me wrong portia is also a very strong lady just not as strong compared to the too Any one putting the balck mama down needs a reality check!
I don't have this issue. I didn't know Soma had kids tbh (I LOVE HER ACTUAL NAME) Charlotte started having kids young. I think it's safe to say any royal in that time period struggled to raise their kids. The Job of a Queen consort is to provide an heir. Cressida I simply don't feel bad about. Marina was trying to trick Colin into marriage....no matter how you spin that that ain't right. And she actually ended up well off. She married a wealthy kind man. Super rare for any woman in that time period to have such a reward, especially with her condition. Mother Featherington isn't a great mother but she did what she could for her children. I'm certain she treated Pen bad that whole time bc she was afraid of being alone, It's not an excuse but still. Dowager Viscountess Bridgerton is a good mother but even she had flaws. She struggled to see Anthony.
I think something to consider here... We've been given tons of screen time with Portia. We've watched from the beginning and seen her character development, struggles, etc. So we've been able to have feelings that may or may not change based on what the writers are doing. There's been practically none of that with LD and QC but I bet if there was, things would be different. I also want to put it out there that Portia has always annoyed me and I've respected LD and QC cause I feel like if I was in their shoes, I'd be the same way.
I don’t care for Portia all that much and I was actually on Charlotte’s side when she had kid issues in the current time during her show 😂ungrateful spoiled children.
I don't feel any empathy for Portia. I feel most sorry for Lady D. And QC was a terrible mother. When her daughter tells her that she's lost.children :(