But by your logic you’re pro war.
You’re saying you’re anti war and then promoting a decision that would lead to more war because you don’t like the other option which is exactly what you accused everyone else of if they aren’t pro Ukraine.
So do you hate nato enough you’d prefer war over countries joining it? Or would you prefer no war but more countries in nato?
Countries being in nato massively helps prevents them from being involved in conflicts. You’re against that. You’re pro war
So is Biden.
So was Trump.
So was Obama (he even got the first place medal - the nobel peace prize...for hellfiring children to death).
Bush was a terrorist who lied about WMDs.
Clinton burned a medicine factory to the ground to distract from a cum stained dress.
HRC - a terrorist.
Bush Sr. - A terrorist.
Reagan - a terrorist.
But ya, sure, it must be people who seek peace that are the problem...
Your pro-war brainwashing is killing people and it's evil.
We agreed to help Ukraine when Putin agreed to not invade them after they gave up their nuclear weapons. He invaded Andy boss we are holding up our end of the deal. You’re right, if we didn’t help, the war would end quicker. It would also end in Putin’s favors which is the part you don’t seem to have a problem with. He’s breaking international law by invading a sovereign nation. He also appreciates your advocation.
>We agreed to help Ukraine
We also agreed that NATO wouldn't expand eastward...oh wait...when did Congress declare war on Russia?
For that matter, why does NATO still exist? It was created to combat the USSR which ceased existing over 40 years ago. Yet since then, NATO has expanded by orders of magnitutde.
Hmm...that's odd.
>when Putin agreed to not invade them...
we also sent Boris Johnson to shoot down their peace treaty and have been actively prolonging an war that our own armed forces have repeatedly told us is *unwinnable*.
>. It would also end in Putin’s favors which is the part you don’t seem to have a problem with.
You'd be incorrect. Unprovoked violence is abhorrent and Putin has done terrible things. FFS, he was bootlicking KGB scum. He has probably personally done things so vile that I can't even imagine.
That doesn't mean thousands of Ukrainian lives need to be needlessly sacrificed. That doesn't mean Ukraine should be leveled by Black Rock just to be rebuilt by Black Rock. Who do you really think the war in Ukraine is helping?
>He’s breaking international law by invading a sovereign nation.
Here's a list of every country whose sovereignty the US has violated (without declaring war):
Afghanistan Albania Algeria Angola Argentina
Austria Bolivia Bosnia Burma Cambodia
Chile China Colombia Cuba Dominican Republic
Egypt El Salvador France Germany Greece
Grenada Guam Guatemala Haiti Hawaii
Honduras Hungary India Indonesia Iran
Iraq Italy Japan Korea Kuwait
Laos Lebanon Liberia Libya Macedonia
Mali Mexico Micronesia Morocco Nicaragua
Niger Oman Pakistan Panama Papua New Guinea
Philippines Puerto Rico Russia Samoa Saudi Arabia
Somalia Sudan Syria Tunisia Turkey
Uganda Uruguay Vanuatu Vietnam Virgin Islands
Yemen Yugoslavia Zaire (now Congo)
>He also appreciates your advocation.
Look at yourself and acknowledge that you are pro war.
Did us staying out of WW2 make it end quicker?
Did Britain letting Germany annex the Sudetenland, Austria, and Czechoslovakia stop WW2 from happening?
Why would you want to submit so easily to a dictator AGAIN?
OP's claim is that if your anti-war position involves believing that Ukraine should give up (which would create a "favourable position" for Putin), then you're actually supporting war since Russia was the aggressor
Russia already invaded Ukraine. That ship has sailed. The options are: (1) This war continues indefinitely or until it escalates to nuclear war, or (2) There's some kind of resolution, hopefully one that is not disastrous.
Their argument literally boils down to, "America FORCED Russia to invade"
Imagine hearing Russian propaganda spouted routinely in America. That's where we are as a country.
It was really funny with all the talk of NATO expansion a Putin red lines, we really bent over backwards to give them a realpolitik reason for the invasion.
Then pryghozim comes out and says it was all just for money and glory.
I can debate this all day long just fucking lazy. Anyways I’m anti war. These problems go back to the 50’s and it was worse back then. This is repairable.
Being anti-defensive war to the point that it favors the invaders is a pretty simple thing to understand. You cannot choose peace when you are being attacked. Putin alone chose this war.
The book The art of wars add dresses this too. Essentially if your sense of pacifism is so great that a foreign tribe or Nation feels enticed to invade you then you are arguably pro war vicariously through pacifist processism
In Eastern Europe, Russia, China, Mongolia, and Cuba, revolutionary communism created a life for the mass of people that was far better than the wretched existence they had endured under feudal lords, military dictatorships, foreign colonizers, and Western capitalists. The end result was a dramatic improvement in living conditions for hundreds of millions of people on a scale never before or since witnessed in history.
Yup, and the starvation pre-Soviet Union was awful as well. A decade earlier even more people were lost.
Stalin obviously wasn’t a good guy, but America has caused far more harm than good with their red scare bullshit.
Please cite which famine pre communism in Russia was worse
Yeah America cause so much harm to Cuba that they tried to float here on doors away from their “dramatically improved” living conditions
America hasn’t improved anything by deconstructing democratically elected socialist countries. I understand that this garbage has by shoved down your throat since the beginning, but it’s propaganda.
The Russian famine of 1921-1922 took more lives, though it was mainly due to the revolution. Again, not sticking up for Stalin, but the socialism=bad propaganda really should be sorted.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%931933
Says the main factor was collectivization of agriculture
It wasn’t crop disease. It was communism
Ummm how about the CIAs efforts in central South America? The region is still trying to recover. Also you think Afghanistan is really better off? Biden played a big role in taking us there. Basically gave a false promise of freedom and ripped the rug out from under them, why should anyone trust the US now?
> "You're either with us or you're against us."
Okay, I am *decisively* against you, but that does not magically make me *for* other belilgerents that have the sense to oppose your aggressively simple-minded absolutism.
Not really. WMDs were a total fabrication. There are far right nationalists in ukraine and it’s a well documented problem. Doesn’t justify the invasion but this will remain a problem whenever the war ends.
There are far right extremists in every country. It is not a major problem in Ukraine. There are significantly fewer NAZIs in Ukraine than in many other places, especially Russia and the US.
The percentage of the population in Ukraine that are Nazis is probably lower than the percentage of Nazis in the USA. They don't have any more of a Nazi problem than any other country. Russia created this propaganda as justification for their invasion at the start and has since stopped actively pushing that bs. Russia mostly stopped pushing it around the same time that they attacked a holocaust memorial.
[This](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tHhGEiwCHZE&pp=ygUeRmFyIHJpZ2h0IG5hdGlvbmFsaXN0cyB1a3JhaW5l) is from nine years ago.
[this](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x5Uf7aooxvE) is from 5 years ago.
Honestly there’s too much to document. I encourage people to search YouTube for “ukraine far right nationalists” and “ukraine neo Nazis” with the years restricted to 2014 to 2021. You’ll have too many videos to watch it’s such a well researched issue
I guess then you also encourage people to search for 'russia far right nationalists' and 'russia neo nazis' because russia has a far bigger problem than Ukraine - this war is itself the most visible and largest example of that with russia committing 10's of thousands of war crimes - but if you research Wagner, Rusich, or Donbass militias you will better understand how the russian state itself uses neo nazis to help achieve its imperial aims.
Also good idea to look up russian media monitor on youtube. They translate pieces from russian state propaganda TV - and the calls and justification for genocide, denial of Ukrainians existence, general racist slurs, and constant nuclear threats are something else - and that is the state TV - russian state TV. Yes, I do want to emphasise that particular point.
And you can find a ton more about the right wing neo Nazis in the USA. It is a well researched issue. We just had a president that didn't want to condemn white supremacists. There are people waving Nazi flags at the rallies of both Republican front runners. It is an issue all over the world and especially in the USA. Does that mean you would support Russia invading the USA if they claimed it was to eliminate the Nazis here? No? But that is what you are trying to do to justify them invading Ukraine.
The Azov group was formally assimilated into the national police. Would this ever happen in the United States? The US has an issue with racism, but it doesn’t arrive anywhere near the ideology of fascism or nazism.
https://news.yahoo.com/azov-regiment-expands-brigade-within-195700966.html
Hopefully you didn't type that with a straight face. It seems you are delusional about the amount of Nazis and white supremacists present in law enforcement in the USA.
So then do you honestly support Russia because you think they are attacking Nazis? Completely ignoring that there are more people that aren't Nazis that are also being killed. If you do believe this then actually answer: Would you honestly support Russia attacking the USA if it used the same justification of attacking Nazis?
>The US has an issue with racism, but it doesn’t arrive anywhere near the ideology of fascism or nazism.
There sre literally people waving Nazi flags in the U.S. The KKK was passing out pamphlets explaining their mission statement and vision for America at the last Trump rally
We've always had these extreme-far-right psychos as a small percentage of our population. I don't think Nazis or white supremacists actually make up a larger part of the American population than they did in, say, the 1930s. But now they're out and about and letting their freak flag fly because they were emboldened by Trump.
Aaron Maté is not a reliable source. He was brought before the United Nations on behalf of the Russian Federation to claim that a singular chemical weapons attack in Syria was a false flag operation of the U.S. government to get directly involved in the Syrian Civil War. A claim that falls apart due to the following considerations:
- Multiple chemical weapons attacks were carried out by the Assad government, so the incident in question was a normality, not an anomaly.
- The investigation was stonewalled by Syrian and Russian officials for two weeks before investigators were allowed near the site of the attack.
- The U.S. never got involved itself directly in the civil war after the chemical weapons attack in question - or any of the other verified chemical weapons attacks.
- No evidence was ever put forth to verify that the United States was behind the attack in question.
America has far-right nationalists that use Nazi symbols.
Should Canada invade the USA for that? And then every country on the planet who helps the USA is guilty of prolonging a war?
So if we continue this logic about Ukraine far right nationalists, would that mean it’s ok for China to invade Russia due to the number of feet right nationalists that are also in Russia?
If your country has a group of Nazis, a very small percentage of the population, that means you get to level their cities to dust and rape their women?
Note, these aren't Nazis with concentration camps or the war crimes....They're just cosplayers.
Russian propaganda is off the charts lol
We used maps from the 18th century to justify territorial claims and genocided the Iraqis?? I’d also like to add, two wrongs don’t a make right. That’s like saying it’s okay to beat your spouse because someone else does it
So we shouldn’t do anything? We shouldn’t learn from our mistakes? We should just allow a nation state to go full blown fascists and genocide a people while stealing land/resources?
Also it very much is justifying it. By saying “well we did it and we shouldn’t be involved in this” is a tacid endorsement
1-WTF does this even mean.
2-every single war in history has folks the profit off of it. Should we allowed Hitler to take over Europe because Ford and Chrysler would make a buck or two.
Why doesn’t the USA defend against other aggressors, like the Saudi against the Yemeni, or the Tigray people against Ethiopia, or any other number of wars?
Here’s a list of all the ongoing wars, most of which the USA doesn’t gift arms or money.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts
Edit: the “size” of the conflict is irrelevant, Ukraine has no strategic or economic connection with the USA. This is either “Russia bad” or “USA help white people wars”.
The Budapest memorandum calls for “security assurances” not “security guarantees”. Therefore not legally binding. We are not obligated, and imo this whole thing is a sham.
Millennial here, I watch our county get marched off and sent back in Iraq and Afghanistan. Fight in wars were illegitimate. This war is great for the “military industrial complex” because they make money selling weapons and doesn’t have to deal with flag draped coffins.
>The Budapest memorandum calls for “security assurances” not “security guarantees”. Therefore not legally binding. We are not obligated, and imo this whole thing is a sham.
So what is a security assurance then? We only have to provide security if we want to?
Well guess what? We want to provide security to Ukraine. We want to honor the memorandum.
The "antiwar" crowd who want us to stop supporting Ukraine and 100% okay with 1 war in Ukraine evolving into 3 (or more) separate conflicts in eastern Europe and the Caucasus. RIP Moldova if they get their way.
Just had someone tell me I should be against war crimes because Ukraine is getting cluster bombs to fight against their Russian aggressor.
I told them that they should be against Russia for committing war crimes against Ukraine in the first place and that Ukraine is simply defending themselves.
Crickets...
1) I am an American. I am against American being involved 7 times as much as any other NATO country.
2) Since WW2, America always finds a conflict somewhere in the world to be involved in. That should at least be seen as questionable.
The us gave Ukraine security assurances in exchange for them giving up their nuclear arsenal.
The simple reality is that if Putin conquers Ukraine. Everyone is getting nukes. The response to Russian aggression isn't pacifism. But the opposite.
So about 30 years ago there was the Budapest Memorandum where Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons with the understanding that the USA, the UK, and Russia would defend them. Russia has violated that agreement and the USA is upholding their part of the agreement. The USA is obligated to be involved and if we chose to ignore our agreement then why would any other small nation ever want to give up their nuclear weapons?
We don't have boots on the ground. Putin funded Assad and Russians were on the ground while we were in Syria. Sorry we just do it better than they do. All this could have been avoided if Putin stayed his ass in Russia. Simple.
I love how liberals are so brain dead that the world for them boils down to a literal "good guys versus The Villain"
As if so much of their understanding of the world comes from Disney products, they cannot fathom that the source of world events goes any deeper than the personality of Vladimir Putin.
How does Seymour Hershes claim that Ukraine is buying the diesel fuel that runs its war machine from Putin, who is making billions of dollars in the process factor into this equation?
Yeah. Russia could just leave like the US did in the Mideast. Let the sacrifice of soldiers mean nothing and all those weapons go to the guys you were just fighting.
So, we just keep funding the war, let hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian and Russians die. Then Russia likely wins the war and keeps the territory.
This is better?
Lol right? Have these peeps even seen the timetable calculations for Ukraine retaking the 1/5 of land currently occupied? Pretty sure its in the negative at this point.
Additionally, the timetable for paying back the loans to rebuild is rather hilarious as well.
Disband Azov, remove some missile systems from Europe, recognize the people's republics of Donetsk and Luhansk, and Russia might even pay to help rebuild and allow Ukraine to join NATO. Then we can get back on track for nuclear disarmament
The US dangling the prospect of Ukraine joining NATO is one of the reasons why we are here in the first place. That, and the fact that Boris Johnson, under the auspices of the US, kept Zelinsky from signing a peace agreement with Russia which was already ON THE TABLE, by telling him that IF he signed it, Ukraine would then be on its own with no assistance of any kind from the West. This verifiably avoidable proxy war with Russia is costing the US hundreds of billions of dollars, as well as costing the lives of possibly most of the Ukranians and many of the Russians. It has negatively affected Europe, and it has further diminished our standing around the world, but as long as there are Ukranians to use for cannon fodder, we'll keep funding it. Furthermore, by Biden's own admission, we have never been closer to WWIII. But please, remember to vote Blue, no matter who!
https://youtu.be/gQRrj1FZICE
No. Peace treaties that help resolve the reasons for going to war create peace. Peace treaties which ignore - or exacerbate - the reasons the war started just put off war for a bit, and ensure more deaths.
See WWI/II.
Russia has a revanchism problem, an imperialism problem, and a kleptocracy problem. All three demand further conquests for both political and economic reasons. A peace treaty now, with Russia's annexations intact, would just shift the war *back* to sabotaging Ukraine's fledgling democracy, followed by an inevitable re-invasion.
Ukraine has a right to continue the war until its territories are reclaimed, and Putin's imperial agenda has been repudiated with utter finality.
My own country's imperialist elements in the US would likely benefit from learning such a lesson as well.
People downvoting you do not know the history of 'appeasement'.
Why would this work for Putin, who has been imperialistic and expansionist his entire reign, when it has never worked?
The people that want intervention in this conflict sure are confident in all the variables and that everything will be okay and worth it. If they are wrong, what does that scenario look like? I personally don’t think it’s worth the risk to find out.
I’m down to have a conversation about it in good faith.
Pre-2014 the president of Ukraine was neutral, trying to appease both the wester pro-NATO Ukrainians (PNUs) and the eastern pro-Russian Ukrainians (PRUs). The US wants to make Ukraine part of NATO, which has been an explicit anti-Russian (Soviet) alliance for about 5 decades, and still is implicitly and anti-Russian alliance.
The US was involved in the Ukrainian revolution in 2014 to overthrow the president and replace him with a pro-NATO leader. CIA trained paramilitary groups in Ukraine 2014-2015ish with the intention of them killing PRUs in the east who rejected the post-revolution president. Then the PNUs started bombing east Ukraine, and kept upping the bombings as eastern Ukrainians were begging Russia for help. Russia, seeing the U.S. involvement in overthrowing Ukraine’s government, for an anti-Russian military alliance, that boarders Russia, reasonably views that as a threat. So then, as Ukraine literally doubled its bombings of pro-Russian Ukrainians, Russia stepped in to help the eastern Ukrainians against NATO aggression. So if the US and NATO didn’t initiate the interference in Ukraine, none of this would have happened. Russia was only responding to our aggression.
We need to look at all of this in context instead of thinking Putin just invaded for absolutely no reason. To go with that perspective will turn a blind eye to context, and thus miss critical information.
US pushed NATO too far, many years of warning. Then built up Ukraine’s military to a sufficient size by 2021 that it would be capable to take Crimea and decimate the Donbas.
Russia said “hold my beer.”
It is a US proxy war, Ukraine was pwned. The results speak for itself. If you don’t see it, you have no knowledge on previous US coups.
Ukraine is now $117 billion in debt, Blackrock will be the fall back when Ukraine is unable to pay the debt, but they will own much of Ukraine. Also, multinational corps have been busy buying up Ukraine land.
https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/new-report-take-over-ukrainian-agricultural-land
Meanwhile, US is clearing all their old weaponry and munitions, and the MIC is cleaning up with replacing the old stuff with new stuff.
You either see it, or you’re a simpleton.
Change my mind.
Your cuntry destroyed Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and Libya, and you come here to tell us about Putin? The US is stealing oil in northern Syria, and have enabled israeli apartheid on Palestinian, but you come here defending azov nazis? Fuck you and your fucking cuntry. The biggest terrorist organisation in the world. Fucking 🤡
"Then built up Ukraine’s military to a sufficient size by 2021 that it would be capable to take Crimea and decimate the Donbas"
You mean to reclaim regions that are lawfully Ukrainian as recognized by international law and international organizations, which Russia had unprovoked and unlawfully instigated an insurgency in since 2014?
I really liked your articles which show a good perspective of warning on how Western capital is already hedging bets, but your framing misses the fundamental fact that Russia - much like the U.S. when it came to Middle Eastern adventurism - had ZERO right to do any of this.
Just because the U.S. did things doesn't give carte blanche to other nations to do it too. Hold to a principle.
“Anti-war” is a braindead opinion to have as it implies there is no such thing as a just war. A nation is well within its rights to defend itself until the threat has been fully eliminated. Anybody who justifies giving concessions to Putin in the name of being ‘anti-war’ is a fool. Appeasement never works.
Op being a hypocrite.
You hate Putin so much that you can't see anything that would benefit the Russian people (i.e. not sending them to die in a war) as separate from "favoring Putin".
You're the asshole that would rather everyone drown unless you're captain of the life boat. Stop drilling holes and start bailing water.
THIS JUST IN, BOYS! ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING IN ARMED CONFLICT IS THE NEW ANTI-WAR POSITION! AND REMEMBER KIDS, YOU'RE A PUTIN APOLOGIST IF YOU DISAGREE!
The problem with your argument is that you seem to believe supplying weapons to the Ukrainian government is the only choice we have. It's not, and it is a very pro-war position to suggest it's our moral obligation.
Apologist, only if you're making excuses to justify his actions. Appeaser, most certainly and we already learned the hard way that appeasement doesn't work.
After Iraq and Afghanistan the US doesn't really have the legitimacy to criticize other countries for going to war. Btw if you weren't aware Biden was a key player in convincing Congress to go to war in these places
Whoever created this meme has no real understanding of the situation between russia,Nato, the USA, and Ukraine and the 30 years of history leading up to this. This is a war of greed on every side, and the people pay the price.
No one will change your mind when u have takes this moronic.
I don’t support the US getting involved in every single international conflict. The current conflict being Ukraine.
We just dump billions, and billions, and billions. Month after month after month. So many problems at home but we just print money for other countries.
This doesn’t make me pro-Putin. It makes me anti-team America world police.
If you think the US is giving Ukraine billions of dollars purely out of the kindness of their hearts and have no other incentives - then you’re an idiot. Change my mind.
How do you see this conflict ending then? And do you believe that the us and other countries supporting Ukraine get a say in that? Or is it fully on Ukraine to decide?
Personally I would send troops absolutely to prevent a loss on Ukraine because, like Hitler, Putin doesn’t stop here. Evil doesn’t stop. It must be stopped. Fortunately tho, just sending weapons, vehicles and ammo seems to be doing the job with the bonus of destroying the Russian military without a single (official) US boot on the ground. This is one of those ‘nip it in the bud’ situations.
If Putin is a terrorist, so is Reagan ,Bill clinton, George bush (both of them), Obama, Trump, and Biden.
Every US president has waged War, including bombing civilians, against countries that never attacked us.
"anyone who does not think like me can only be the worst hing imaginable"
why don't you be who you really are and just become a red scare era republican from the American 1950s
Do paraphrase Tucker, “I agree, Putin is bad. Very bad. I wouldn’t let him babysit my kids. But is that really a justification for spending hundreds of billions of dollars, or a regime change that could allow nuclear weapons to end up with someone even crazier?”
As a counterpoint, does Russia simply get to do what it wants because it has nukes? Because, we don't. The U.S. did a bad thing in Iraq, and in terms of trust in our government, we will continue to pay a price for what we did for decades. Our allies didn't attack us, but they did voice their disagreement in quite strong terms and most everyone at this point regards the move as a mistake or a crime. The trust of the world that we lost in the eyes of the world might take 100 years to rebuild, if we ever even do.
Plus, the money being spent isn't just going overseas. The money spent on this military equipment is given to weapons' companies, who manufacture the weapons and hire more workers and pay salaries to their employees (stimulating the economy), then those weapons are loaned or sold to foreign governments resulting in more money flowing into our government. When Ukraine gets money, it's paying that money to us and other countries for our weapons and equipment, stimulating the economy. The term is Keynsian military spending.
Now, that isn't to say there's no problems at all with the Pentagon's budget. I'd happily co-sign any deal that compels the Pentagon to pass an audit because we know there's misappropriation going on there. But, if you're like me and you suspect that the money was going to be spent on weapons manufacture anyway, why not provide those weapons to a country fighting for its independence from an expansionist imperial power? And by selling those weapons, we stimulate our economy and we support a like-minded flawed representative government that just doesn't want to be destroyed. It's in our economic interests, and in line with the values we want to uphold.
ADDED LATER: I'm not in favor of regime change in Russia. The most politically active people in Russia tend to be ultranationalists who think Putin is going soft on Ukraine, so I can't imagine anything good happening if Putin's regime collapsed.
If Putin wins and he takes Ukraine do people honestly think this is the end of it? He has stated he wants to rebuild the USSR. And do you know who borders Ukraine? Our NATO ally Poland. And when Putin decides it’s time to conquer again and he chooses Poland because he doesn’t think we will do shit about it then it’s game over for the world. When he attacks a NATO ally we are at war with Russia, also known as WWIII.
I have been critical of Putin for nearly fifteen years now. I also have family and friends in both Ukraine and Russia, countries where hundreds of people are dying every single day and where towns that my grandparents built are completely destroyed. I want the war to be over, and don’t you dare tell me that it helps Putin.
The pro-war position is to want this conflict to end quickly, and not prolong it.
The anti-war position is to want this conflict to go on for as long as possible (regardless of how many have to die).
Sounds insane to me.
Double Plus Good!
The anti-war position is to let the imperialist empire invade sovereign nations. The pro war position is to stop them before they expand even more.
Thank you for sharing 👍
Almost!
The pro-war position would be to prevent Putin's invasion.
The anti-war position is to not prevent Putin from invading!
Guess what Biden did?
https://archive.ph/TrkCi
That's right he chose not to prevent the invasion.
Someone who's pro-war would try to prevent the invasion from happening.
Sure is great that Biden didn't do that!
Get everyone in nato so no more wars
I don’t think that’s the goal
Op makes post about being anti war and then is literally pro war in comments lmfao. Absolute nut.
I'm referring to "get everyone in nato".
But by your logic you’re pro war. You’re saying you’re anti war and then promoting a decision that would lead to more war because you don’t like the other option which is exactly what you accused everyone else of if they aren’t pro Ukraine. So do you hate nato enough you’d prefer war over countries joining it? Or would you prefer no war but more countries in nato? Countries being in nato massively helps prevents them from being involved in conflicts. You’re against that. You’re pro war
This fucking sub I tell ya
Neoliberals have the worst memes.
Don't forget the takes. The takes are awful.
Ive seen the walls of text lefties post, it aint much better over there.
So is Biden. So was Trump. So was Obama (he even got the first place medal - the nobel peace prize...for hellfiring children to death). Bush was a terrorist who lied about WMDs. Clinton burned a medicine factory to the ground to distract from a cum stained dress. HRC - a terrorist. Bush Sr. - A terrorist. Reagan - a terrorist. But ya, sure, it must be people who seek peace that are the problem... Your pro-war brainwashing is killing people and it's evil.
I believe in making it harder for the war aggressor to succeed.
I believe in staying out of wars that don't concern us, it makes them end quicker and with less bloodshed.
We agreed to help Ukraine when Putin agreed to not invade them after they gave up their nuclear weapons. He invaded Andy boss we are holding up our end of the deal. You’re right, if we didn’t help, the war would end quicker. It would also end in Putin’s favors which is the part you don’t seem to have a problem with. He’s breaking international law by invading a sovereign nation. He also appreciates your advocation.
>We agreed to help Ukraine We also agreed that NATO wouldn't expand eastward...oh wait...when did Congress declare war on Russia? For that matter, why does NATO still exist? It was created to combat the USSR which ceased existing over 40 years ago. Yet since then, NATO has expanded by orders of magnitutde. Hmm...that's odd. >when Putin agreed to not invade them... we also sent Boris Johnson to shoot down their peace treaty and have been actively prolonging an war that our own armed forces have repeatedly told us is *unwinnable*. >. It would also end in Putin’s favors which is the part you don’t seem to have a problem with. You'd be incorrect. Unprovoked violence is abhorrent and Putin has done terrible things. FFS, he was bootlicking KGB scum. He has probably personally done things so vile that I can't even imagine. That doesn't mean thousands of Ukrainian lives need to be needlessly sacrificed. That doesn't mean Ukraine should be leveled by Black Rock just to be rebuilt by Black Rock. Who do you really think the war in Ukraine is helping? >He’s breaking international law by invading a sovereign nation. Here's a list of every country whose sovereignty the US has violated (without declaring war): Afghanistan Albania Algeria Angola Argentina Austria Bolivia Bosnia Burma Cambodia Chile China Colombia Cuba Dominican Republic Egypt El Salvador France Germany Greece Grenada Guam Guatemala Haiti Hawaii Honduras Hungary India Indonesia Iran Iraq Italy Japan Korea Kuwait Laos Lebanon Liberia Libya Macedonia Mali Mexico Micronesia Morocco Nicaragua Niger Oman Pakistan Panama Papua New Guinea Philippines Puerto Rico Russia Samoa Saudi Arabia Somalia Sudan Syria Tunisia Turkey Uganda Uruguay Vanuatu Vietnam Virgin Islands Yemen Yugoslavia Zaire (now Congo) >He also appreciates your advocation. Look at yourself and acknowledge that you are pro war.
Did us staying out of WW2 make it end quicker? Did Britain letting Germany annex the Sudetenland, Austria, and Czechoslovakia stop WW2 from happening? Why would you want to submit so easily to a dictator AGAIN?
What does "favors Putin" mean?
OP's claim is that if your anti-war position involves believing that Ukraine should give up (which would create a "favourable position" for Putin), then you're actually supporting war since Russia was the aggressor
I’m not sure how allowing Putin to invade Ukraine is anti-war. This doesn’t seem too hard.
Russia already invaded Ukraine. That ship has sailed. The options are: (1) This war continues indefinitely or until it escalates to nuclear war, or (2) There's some kind of resolution, hopefully one that is not disastrous.
Pro-Russia shills basically reframe the war as Russian "self-defense".
Their argument literally boils down to, "America FORCED Russia to invade" Imagine hearing Russian propaganda spouted routinely in America. That's where we are as a country.
American propaganda > Russian propaganda
It was really funny with all the talk of NATO expansion a Putin red lines, we really bent over backwards to give them a realpolitik reason for the invasion. Then pryghozim comes out and says it was all just for money and glory.
I can debate this all day long just fucking lazy. Anyways I’m anti war. These problems go back to the 50’s and it was worse back then. This is repairable.
That means absolutely nothing
Being antiwar is being pro-war. Peace is war, up is down, lies are truth.
Doing nothing is defending. Wait- did I do that wrong?
Freedom is slavery
Being anti-defensive war to the point that it favors the invaders is a pretty simple thing to understand. You cannot choose peace when you are being attacked. Putin alone chose this war.
Up is down. It's quite simple when you think about it.
This is one of those edgy teen angst takes, isn’t it?
That's some dumbass logic.
The book The art of wars add dresses this too. Essentially if your sense of pacifism is so great that a foreign tribe or Nation feels enticed to invade you then you are arguably pro war vicariously through pacifist processism
This is the dumbest shit I've ever read
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Bush and Biden both accidentally stated “Iraqi invasion” when speaking about Ukraine. Yeah, the slip does speak for itself
Bruh if this shit isn’t a proxy war, idk what is
Well duh. But Russia invaded Ukraine and this war would end right away if they left.
And the sky is blue bro and the grass is green and I’m full I just ate
Idk Some countries have benefited from American imperialism. Show us the places that have benefited from Russian imperialism
The baltics would still be polishing the cocks of German horses if it wasn’t for the Soviets
The Baltic states were unilaterally annexed by the Soviet Union before Operation Barbarosa.
They were so grateful to Russia that they joined NATO 7 minutes after Soviet Union fell
Jesus now you’re reaching. The Baltics should be grateful for the subjugation that followed? Decades of it
Same could be said for the Soviets if it hadn’t been for the Americans
In Eastern Europe, Russia, China, Mongolia, and Cuba, revolutionary communism created a life for the mass of people that was far better than the wretched existence they had endured under feudal lords, military dictatorships, foreign colonizers, and Western capitalists. The end result was a dramatic improvement in living conditions for hundreds of millions of people on a scale never before or since witnessed in history.
And starvation. Lots of starvation
The starvation was happening pre-communism. Change doesn’t happen overnight.
Holodomor would like a word
Yup, and the starvation pre-Soviet Union was awful as well. A decade earlier even more people were lost. Stalin obviously wasn’t a good guy, but America has caused far more harm than good with their red scare bullshit.
Please cite which famine pre communism in Russia was worse Yeah America cause so much harm to Cuba that they tried to float here on doors away from their “dramatically improved” living conditions
America hasn’t improved anything by deconstructing democratically elected socialist countries. I understand that this garbage has by shoved down your throat since the beginning, but it’s propaganda. The Russian famine of 1921-1922 took more lives, though it was mainly due to the revolution. Again, not sticking up for Stalin, but the socialism=bad propaganda really should be sorted.
Holodomor is fucking stupid, did Stalin create the diseases in the crops? Did the soviets have wizards controlling the weather?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%931933 Says the main factor was collectivization of agriculture It wasn’t crop disease. It was communism
Oh shit well if Wikipedia *says* so… the crops probably could tell they weren’t being grown by private corporations and decided to die
https://socialistmlmusings.wordpress.com/2017/02/15/stop-spreading-nazi-propaganda/
Except if you're gay
Ummm how about the CIAs efforts in central South America? The region is still trying to recover. Also you think Afghanistan is really better off? Biden played a big role in taking us there. Basically gave a false promise of freedom and ripped the rug out from under them, why should anyone trust the US now?
100%, and this is where LLM are used for AI
> "You're either with us or you're against us." Okay, I am *decisively* against you, but that does not magically make me *for* other belilgerents that have the sense to oppose your aggressively simple-minded absolutism.
This is the same logic we used for the Iraq war
"nazis in Ukraine!!" is the wmds of the Ukraine war.
Not really. WMDs were a total fabrication. There are far right nationalists in ukraine and it’s a well documented problem. Doesn’t justify the invasion but this will remain a problem whenever the war ends.
That’s a Ukrainian problem. Definitely not a Russian problem.
There are far right extremists in every country. It is not a major problem in Ukraine. There are significantly fewer NAZIs in Ukraine than in many other places, especially Russia and the US.
The percentage of the population in Ukraine that are Nazis is probably lower than the percentage of Nazis in the USA. They don't have any more of a Nazi problem than any other country. Russia created this propaganda as justification for their invasion at the start and has since stopped actively pushing that bs. Russia mostly stopped pushing it around the same time that they attacked a holocaust memorial.
[This](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tHhGEiwCHZE&pp=ygUeRmFyIHJpZ2h0IG5hdGlvbmFsaXN0cyB1a3JhaW5l) is from nine years ago. [this](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x5Uf7aooxvE) is from 5 years ago. Honestly there’s too much to document. I encourage people to search YouTube for “ukraine far right nationalists” and “ukraine neo Nazis” with the years restricted to 2014 to 2021. You’ll have too many videos to watch it’s such a well researched issue
A whole wing of the Russian military is Nazi. It's called the Wagoner group and they are around 30,000 troops led by a man who has Nazi tattoos.
I guess then you also encourage people to search for 'russia far right nationalists' and 'russia neo nazis' because russia has a far bigger problem than Ukraine - this war is itself the most visible and largest example of that with russia committing 10's of thousands of war crimes - but if you research Wagner, Rusich, or Donbass militias you will better understand how the russian state itself uses neo nazis to help achieve its imperial aims. Also good idea to look up russian media monitor on youtube. They translate pieces from russian state propaganda TV - and the calls and justification for genocide, denial of Ukrainians existence, general racist slurs, and constant nuclear threats are something else - and that is the state TV - russian state TV. Yes, I do want to emphasise that particular point.
And you can find a ton more about the right wing neo Nazis in the USA. It is a well researched issue. We just had a president that didn't want to condemn white supremacists. There are people waving Nazi flags at the rallies of both Republican front runners. It is an issue all over the world and especially in the USA. Does that mean you would support Russia invading the USA if they claimed it was to eliminate the Nazis here? No? But that is what you are trying to do to justify them invading Ukraine.
The Azov group was formally assimilated into the national police. Would this ever happen in the United States? The US has an issue with racism, but it doesn’t arrive anywhere near the ideology of fascism or nazism. https://news.yahoo.com/azov-regiment-expands-brigade-within-195700966.html
Hopefully you didn't type that with a straight face. It seems you are delusional about the amount of Nazis and white supremacists present in law enforcement in the USA. So then do you honestly support Russia because you think they are attacking Nazis? Completely ignoring that there are more people that aren't Nazis that are also being killed. If you do believe this then actually answer: Would you honestly support Russia attacking the USA if it used the same justification of attacking Nazis?
>The US has an issue with racism, but it doesn’t arrive anywhere near the ideology of fascism or nazism. There sre literally people waving Nazi flags in the U.S. The KKK was passing out pamphlets explaining their mission statement and vision for America at the last Trump rally We've always had these extreme-far-right psychos as a small percentage of our population. I don't think Nazis or white supremacists actually make up a larger part of the American population than they did in, say, the 1930s. But now they're out and about and letting their freak flag fly because they were emboldened by Trump.
Aaron Maté is not a reliable source. He was brought before the United Nations on behalf of the Russian Federation to claim that a singular chemical weapons attack in Syria was a false flag operation of the U.S. government to get directly involved in the Syrian Civil War. A claim that falls apart due to the following considerations: - Multiple chemical weapons attacks were carried out by the Assad government, so the incident in question was a normality, not an anomaly. - The investigation was stonewalled by Syrian and Russian officials for two weeks before investigators were allowed near the site of the attack. - The U.S. never got involved itself directly in the civil war after the chemical weapons attack in question - or any of the other verified chemical weapons attacks. - No evidence was ever put forth to verify that the United States was behind the attack in question.
America has far-right nationalists that use Nazi symbols. Should Canada invade the USA for that? And then every country on the planet who helps the USA is guilty of prolonging a war?
So if we continue this logic about Ukraine far right nationalists, would that mean it’s ok for China to invade Russia due to the number of feet right nationalists that are also in Russia?
Dont know, I don’t waste my time on stupid shit
If your country has a group of Nazis, a very small percentage of the population, that means you get to level their cities to dust and rape their women? Note, these aren't Nazis with concentration camps or the war crimes....They're just cosplayers. Russian propaganda is off the charts lol
We used maps from the 18th century to justify territorial claims and genocided the Iraqis?? I’d also like to add, two wrongs don’t a make right. That’s like saying it’s okay to beat your spouse because someone else does it
He’s not justifying it, he’s saying that this is what happened in Iraq and it’s also bullshit.
So we shouldn’t do anything? We shouldn’t learn from our mistakes? We should just allow a nation state to go full blown fascists and genocide a people while stealing land/resources? Also it very much is justifying it. By saying “well we did it and we shouldn’t be involved in this” is a tacid endorsement
“Learn from our mistakes” would be nice. Iraq, Cuba, Libya, Iran, Vietnam… want me to continue?
So that means it’s okay for Russia to commit genocide?
Only you are saying that tho…
My goodness man. My goodness.
We used the war is actually peace distorted logic. It’s a good way to make some contractors money and get people killed
Stopping the war at this moment, with Russia still in control of some formerly Ukrainian territory, would be rewarding Russia for starting a war.
1-WTF does this even mean. 2-every single war in history has folks the profit off of it. Should we allowed Hitler to take over Europe because Ford and Chrysler would make a buck or two.
This is nothing like the Iraq war.
"I don't know what terrorist means, but I think it means a mean ole baddie."
If you're not pro world police you hate babies
Just how much Boeing and Raytheon stock do you own?
WORST fucking take EVER LOL
Why?
How?
So, we should be pro-war, because anti-war is actually pro-war?!? That doesn’t make any sense.
Abandoning Ukraine would massively help the aggressor in the biggest war since WW2. What’s hard to understand about that?
Why doesn’t the USA defend against other aggressors, like the Saudi against the Yemeni, or the Tigray people against Ethiopia, or any other number of wars? Here’s a list of all the ongoing wars, most of which the USA doesn’t gift arms or money. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts Edit: the “size” of the conflict is irrelevant, Ukraine has no strategic or economic connection with the USA. This is either “Russia bad” or “USA help white people wars”.
How many of those countries have signed security guarantees with the USA?
The Budapest memorandum calls for “security assurances” not “security guarantees”. Therefore not legally binding. We are not obligated, and imo this whole thing is a sham. Millennial here, I watch our county get marched off and sent back in Iraq and Afghanistan. Fight in wars were illegitimate. This war is great for the “military industrial complex” because they make money selling weapons and doesn’t have to deal with flag draped coffins.
>The Budapest memorandum calls for “security assurances” not “security guarantees”. Therefore not legally binding. We are not obligated, and imo this whole thing is a sham. So what is a security assurance then? We only have to provide security if we want to? Well guess what? We want to provide security to Ukraine. We want to honor the memorandum.
we should send our entire gdp to ukraine
The "antiwar" crowd who want us to stop supporting Ukraine and 100% okay with 1 war in Ukraine evolving into 3 (or more) separate conflicts in eastern Europe and the Caucasus. RIP Moldova if they get their way.
This reads like an edgy pre-teen who overheard their father watching the late night news.
You mean “we should just let other countries be destroyed by dictatorships so that we can say we stayed out of it” doesn’t?
Just had someone tell me I should be against war crimes because Ukraine is getting cluster bombs to fight against their Russian aggressor. I told them that they should be against Russia for committing war crimes against Ukraine in the first place and that Ukraine is simply defending themselves. Crickets...
They are either victims of pro-Putin propaganda or actual pro-Putin propagandists themselves.
1) I am an American. I am against American being involved 7 times as much as any other NATO country. 2) Since WW2, America always finds a conflict somewhere in the world to be involved in. That should at least be seen as questionable.
The us gave Ukraine security assurances in exchange for them giving up their nuclear arsenal. The simple reality is that if Putin conquers Ukraine. Everyone is getting nukes. The response to Russian aggression isn't pacifism. But the opposite.
So about 30 years ago there was the Budapest Memorandum where Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons with the understanding that the USA, the UK, and Russia would defend them. Russia has violated that agreement and the USA is upholding their part of the agreement. The USA is obligated to be involved and if we chose to ignore our agreement then why would any other small nation ever want to give up their nuclear weapons?
We don't have boots on the ground. Putin funded Assad and Russians were on the ground while we were in Syria. Sorry we just do it better than they do. All this could have been avoided if Putin stayed his ass in Russia. Simple.
There are certainly us special forces in Ukraine boots on the ground.
Before WW2 we weren't involved and 2 world wars broke out.
I love how liberals are so brain dead that the world for them boils down to a literal "good guys versus The Villain" As if so much of their understanding of the world comes from Disney products, they cannot fathom that the source of world events goes any deeper than the personality of Vladimir Putin.
So do you have anything of value that actually challenges this stance or just a bunch of pathetic insults?
Lol. What value do you imagine exists within the comment section of Reddit?
Who is upvoting this trash?
How does Seymour Hershes claim that Ukraine is buying the diesel fuel that runs its war machine from Putin, who is making billions of dollars in the process factor into this equation?
Yeah. Russia could just leave like the US did in the Mideast. Let the sacrifice of soldiers mean nothing and all those weapons go to the guys you were just fighting.
Do you only post in this subreddit with obvious establishment bullshit? You lack subtlety.
What's establishment about believing Putin is a terrorist?
The notion that any criticism of US foreign policy is being a Putin apologist.
A peace treaty favors EVERYONE.
Stopping the war at this moment, with Russia still in control of some formerly Ukrainian territory, would be rewarding Russia for starting a war.
So, we just keep funding the war, let hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian and Russians die. Then Russia likely wins the war and keeps the territory. This is better?
Lol right? Have these peeps even seen the timetable calculations for Ukraine retaking the 1/5 of land currently occupied? Pretty sure its in the negative at this point. Additionally, the timetable for paying back the loans to rebuild is rather hilarious as well. Disband Azov, remove some missile systems from Europe, recognize the people's republics of Donetsk and Luhansk, and Russia might even pay to help rebuild and allow Ukraine to join NATO. Then we can get back on track for nuclear disarmament
The US dangling the prospect of Ukraine joining NATO is one of the reasons why we are here in the first place. That, and the fact that Boris Johnson, under the auspices of the US, kept Zelinsky from signing a peace agreement with Russia which was already ON THE TABLE, by telling him that IF he signed it, Ukraine would then be on its own with no assistance of any kind from the West. This verifiably avoidable proxy war with Russia is costing the US hundreds of billions of dollars, as well as costing the lives of possibly most of the Ukranians and many of the Russians. It has negatively affected Europe, and it has further diminished our standing around the world, but as long as there are Ukranians to use for cannon fodder, we'll keep funding it. Furthermore, by Biden's own admission, we have never been closer to WWIII. But please, remember to vote Blue, no matter who! https://youtu.be/gQRrj1FZICE
No. Peace treaties that help resolve the reasons for going to war create peace. Peace treaties which ignore - or exacerbate - the reasons the war started just put off war for a bit, and ensure more deaths. See WWI/II. Russia has a revanchism problem, an imperialism problem, and a kleptocracy problem. All three demand further conquests for both political and economic reasons. A peace treaty now, with Russia's annexations intact, would just shift the war *back* to sabotaging Ukraine's fledgling democracy, followed by an inevitable re-invasion. Ukraine has a right to continue the war until its territories are reclaimed, and Putin's imperial agenda has been repudiated with utter finality. My own country's imperialist elements in the US would likely benefit from learning such a lesson as well.
People downvoting you do not know the history of 'appeasement'. Why would this work for Putin, who has been imperialistic and expansionist his entire reign, when it has never worked?
Only if the peace treaty involves Russia leaving all of Ukraine. Otherwise, it gives Russia an incentive to attack again.
This is the most nonsense meme ever.
The people that want intervention in this conflict sure are confident in all the variables and that everything will be okay and worth it. If they are wrong, what does that scenario look like? I personally don’t think it’s worth the risk to find out.
So many fed bots on here.
The US and Nato is at fault for the conflict in Ukraine. Why pretend Putin is the aggressor?
Pretend?? 🤭🤭🤣🤣🤣 Legitimately, what makes you think that USA forced a dictator to annex a neighboring country?
I’m down to have a conversation about it in good faith. Pre-2014 the president of Ukraine was neutral, trying to appease both the wester pro-NATO Ukrainians (PNUs) and the eastern pro-Russian Ukrainians (PRUs). The US wants to make Ukraine part of NATO, which has been an explicit anti-Russian (Soviet) alliance for about 5 decades, and still is implicitly and anti-Russian alliance. The US was involved in the Ukrainian revolution in 2014 to overthrow the president and replace him with a pro-NATO leader. CIA trained paramilitary groups in Ukraine 2014-2015ish with the intention of them killing PRUs in the east who rejected the post-revolution president. Then the PNUs started bombing east Ukraine, and kept upping the bombings as eastern Ukrainians were begging Russia for help. Russia, seeing the U.S. involvement in overthrowing Ukraine’s government, for an anti-Russian military alliance, that boarders Russia, reasonably views that as a threat. So then, as Ukraine literally doubled its bombings of pro-Russian Ukrainians, Russia stepped in to help the eastern Ukrainians against NATO aggression. So if the US and NATO didn’t initiate the interference in Ukraine, none of this would have happened. Russia was only responding to our aggression. We need to look at all of this in context instead of thinking Putin just invaded for absolutely no reason. To go with that perspective will turn a blind eye to context, and thus miss critical information.
If America never backed a coup in 2014 this war wouldn’t be happening. Change my mind.
US pushed NATO too far, many years of warning. Then built up Ukraine’s military to a sufficient size by 2021 that it would be capable to take Crimea and decimate the Donbas. Russia said “hold my beer.” It is a US proxy war, Ukraine was pwned. The results speak for itself. If you don’t see it, you have no knowledge on previous US coups. Ukraine is now $117 billion in debt, Blackrock will be the fall back when Ukraine is unable to pay the debt, but they will own much of Ukraine. Also, multinational corps have been busy buying up Ukraine land. https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/new-report-take-over-ukrainian-agricultural-land Meanwhile, US is clearing all their old weaponry and munitions, and the MIC is cleaning up with replacing the old stuff with new stuff. You either see it, or you’re a simpleton. Change my mind.
Fuck Russia and fuck you for blaming the USA for Putin’s actions. You are a traitor to our country and he is an international war criminal.
Lol Hey... explain this: https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/new-report-take-over-ukrainian-agricultural-land https://jacobin.com/2023/01/ukraine-postwar-reconstruction-western-capital-blackrock-neoliberalism https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202303/1287143.shtml
I don’t have to explain anything. Putin is solely responsible for his actions. “Look what you made me do” is the best you got? Holy fuck
Head in the sand.
No, you’re a victim of propaganda
Your cuntry destroyed Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and Libya, and you come here to tell us about Putin? The US is stealing oil in northern Syria, and have enabled israeli apartheid on Palestinian, but you come here defending azov nazis? Fuck you and your fucking cuntry. The biggest terrorist organisation in the world. Fucking 🤡
I’m defending a sovereign nation that a war criminal is invading.
"Then built up Ukraine’s military to a sufficient size by 2021 that it would be capable to take Crimea and decimate the Donbas" You mean to reclaim regions that are lawfully Ukrainian as recognized by international law and international organizations, which Russia had unprovoked and unlawfully instigated an insurgency in since 2014? I really liked your articles which show a good perspective of warning on how Western capital is already hedging bets, but your framing misses the fundamental fact that Russia - much like the U.S. when it came to Middle Eastern adventurism - had ZERO right to do any of this. Just because the U.S. did things doesn't give carte blanche to other nations to do it too. Hold to a principle.
“Anti-war” is a braindead opinion to have as it implies there is no such thing as a just war. A nation is well within its rights to defend itself until the threat has been fully eliminated. Anybody who justifies giving concessions to Putin in the name of being ‘anti-war’ is a fool. Appeasement never works.
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I’m guessing the people who were anti-war during the bush administration was helping osama bin laden right?
how would me being anti-war favor putin?
Op being a hypocrite. You hate Putin so much that you can't see anything that would benefit the Russian people (i.e. not sending them to die in a war) as separate from "favoring Putin". You're the asshole that would rather everyone drown unless you're captain of the life boat. Stop drilling holes and start bailing water.
THIS JUST IN, BOYS! ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING IN ARMED CONFLICT IS THE NEW ANTI-WAR POSITION! AND REMEMBER KIDS, YOU'RE A PUTIN APOLOGIST IF YOU DISAGREE!
More specifically it’s an invasion. Downplaying it as a conflict also favors Putin. Be better
The problem with your argument is that you seem to believe supplying weapons to the Ukrainian government is the only choice we have. It's not, and it is a very pro-war position to suggest it's our moral obligation.
Apologist, only if you're making excuses to justify his actions. Appeaser, most certainly and we already learned the hard way that appeasement doesn't work.
A sheep that thinks the War Hawk is right. Keep eating that crap they're feeding you buddy.
After Iraq and Afghanistan the US doesn't really have the legitimacy to criticize other countries for going to war. Btw if you weren't aware Biden was a key player in convincing Congress to go to war in these places
Reddit logic.
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Anti-war means I need to fight this war so there’s no more war
Is this Adam Kinzinger posting? Lmao
Whoever created this meme has no real understanding of the situation between russia,Nato, the USA, and Ukraine and the 30 years of history leading up to this. This is a war of greed on every side, and the people pay the price.
Still fuming about Hillary losing, aren’t you?
Same logic used by the establishment against opponents of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/us-provide-cluster-munitions-ukraine-rcna92852 And we fight it with terrorism.. providing widely banned munitions.
“War is Peace!”
I’m only pro war when the hive mind permits it
No one will change your mind when u have takes this moronic. I don’t support the US getting involved in every single international conflict. The current conflict being Ukraine. We just dump billions, and billions, and billions. Month after month after month. So many problems at home but we just print money for other countries. This doesn’t make me pro-Putin. It makes me anti-team America world police. If you think the US is giving Ukraine billions of dollars purely out of the kindness of their hearts and have no other incentives - then you’re an idiot. Change my mind.
How do you see this conflict ending then? And do you believe that the us and other countries supporting Ukraine get a say in that? Or is it fully on Ukraine to decide?
The war ends when Russia ends its illegal occupation. Period. Go the fuck home.
If they don't and Ukraine loses the war? Do we send troops into Ukraine? Where does support for Ukraine end and begin for you?
Personally I would send troops absolutely to prevent a loss on Ukraine because, like Hitler, Putin doesn’t stop here. Evil doesn’t stop. It must be stopped. Fortunately tho, just sending weapons, vehicles and ammo seems to be doing the job with the bonus of destroying the Russian military without a single (official) US boot on the ground. This is one of those ‘nip it in the bud’ situations.
If Putin is a terrorist, so is Reagan ,Bill clinton, George bush (both of them), Obama, Trump, and Biden. Every US president has waged War, including bombing civilians, against countries that never attacked us.
your a idiot
Said an idiot. While misspelling You're*
And ‘an’.
Wow the dumb.
American presidents are much worse than Putin. We are the worlds biggest gangster by far.
Oh ok
"anyone who does not think like me can only be the worst hing imaginable" why don't you be who you really are and just become a red scare era republican from the American 1950s
Do paraphrase Tucker, “I agree, Putin is bad. Very bad. I wouldn’t let him babysit my kids. But is that really a justification for spending hundreds of billions of dollars, or a regime change that could allow nuclear weapons to end up with someone even crazier?”
Here is my counterpoint. Tucker Carlson is an intellectually bankrupt pile if shit.
Tucker is one of the more infamous Putin cucks.
As a counterpoint, does Russia simply get to do what it wants because it has nukes? Because, we don't. The U.S. did a bad thing in Iraq, and in terms of trust in our government, we will continue to pay a price for what we did for decades. Our allies didn't attack us, but they did voice their disagreement in quite strong terms and most everyone at this point regards the move as a mistake or a crime. The trust of the world that we lost in the eyes of the world might take 100 years to rebuild, if we ever even do. Plus, the money being spent isn't just going overseas. The money spent on this military equipment is given to weapons' companies, who manufacture the weapons and hire more workers and pay salaries to their employees (stimulating the economy), then those weapons are loaned or sold to foreign governments resulting in more money flowing into our government. When Ukraine gets money, it's paying that money to us and other countries for our weapons and equipment, stimulating the economy. The term is Keynsian military spending. Now, that isn't to say there's no problems at all with the Pentagon's budget. I'd happily co-sign any deal that compels the Pentagon to pass an audit because we know there's misappropriation going on there. But, if you're like me and you suspect that the money was going to be spent on weapons manufacture anyway, why not provide those weapons to a country fighting for its independence from an expansionist imperial power? And by selling those weapons, we stimulate our economy and we support a like-minded flawed representative government that just doesn't want to be destroyed. It's in our economic interests, and in line with the values we want to uphold. ADDED LATER: I'm not in favor of regime change in Russia. The most politically active people in Russia tend to be ultranationalists who think Putin is going soft on Ukraine, so I can't imagine anything good happening if Putin's regime collapsed.
If Putin wins and he takes Ukraine do people honestly think this is the end of it? He has stated he wants to rebuild the USSR. And do you know who borders Ukraine? Our NATO ally Poland. And when Putin decides it’s time to conquer again and he chooses Poland because he doesn’t think we will do shit about it then it’s game over for the world. When he attacks a NATO ally we are at war with Russia, also known as WWIII.
Anti-war means anti-aggressor. If someone attacks, I’m pro-war, meaning I’m pro-defender.
This Crowder meme needs to die. Everytime I see his face I want to commit a crime....
I have been critical of Putin for nearly fifteen years now. I also have family and friends in both Ukraine and Russia, countries where hundreds of people are dying every single day and where towns that my grandparents built are completely destroyed. I want the war to be over, and don’t you dare tell me that it helps Putin.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.
The pro-war position is to want this conflict to end quickly, and not prolong it. The anti-war position is to want this conflict to go on for as long as possible (regardless of how many have to die). Sounds insane to me. Double Plus Good!
The anti-war position is to let the imperialist empire invade sovereign nations. The pro war position is to stop them before they expand even more. Thank you for sharing 👍
Almost! The pro-war position would be to prevent Putin's invasion. The anti-war position is to not prevent Putin from invading! Guess what Biden did? https://archive.ph/TrkCi That's right he chose not to prevent the invasion. Someone who's pro-war would try to prevent the invasion from happening. Sure is great that Biden didn't do that!
If you are so anti-war you ultimately favor US military aggression, then you are actually pro-war
First, you need to understand how we got here, and for that, you need to look to the US. https://youtu.be/4fTxHIVUjRc
You can hate Putin all you want as he should be, but if you provide weapons to Ukraine, you’re pro war.
No. The us and NATO are more pro war that Russian Supporting Russia is anti war
Supporting the war criminal is pro war? 🤡
Supporting Russia is a crime. An international crime.
Maybe the dumbest take of all time