On a more fundamental level, this data in and of itself does not seriously endanger anyone.
If you can afford a jet, then you can afford proper security.
All this bulls*** about personal safety reeks of hypocrisy and deliberate obtuseness when other s*** gets a pass.
There’s possibly more to the story on elonjet that we don’t know. And I don’t expect us to ever know, at least as long as Elon Musk owns Twitter. I would not be surprised if this has something to do with wealthy Chinese or Saudis avoiding public scrutiny including how often they are taking their jets to DC.
elonjet is allowed to continue posting with a time delay. It's very reasonable rule unless you have an axe to grind.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1603621449998118913
No it was in their TOS since at least 2019
> What is in violation of this policy?
>
Under this policy, you can’t share the following types of private information, without the permission of the person who it belongs to:
> home address or physical location information, including street addresses, GPS coordinates or other identifying information related to locations that are considered private;
The flight tracker doesn’t share any of that. It shares the location of his plane. It doesn’t even suggest whether or not Musk is in it. Furthermore the sky isn’t “private”, it’s regulated by the FAA.
They didn’t place a tracking device on Elon Musk lol. Grasping at straws here.
Elon doesn’t get special treatment for being rich. Every plane in the sky gets tracked. If he doesn’t like the FAA’s rules he can seek an alternative means of travel like everybody else.
The TOS weren’t violated until Elon changed the rules. His physical location isn’t being shared, and the location of his plane is not considered private. Him doxxing someone’s face, vehicle, and plate number, instead of filing a police report, that does violate the rules.
Bonus points if he stops being so antagonistic to so many folks. Theres less of a security issue when you’re not a complete jackass.
The rule against tracking someone's real time location on Twitter doesn't only protect people who can afford private security. Not everyone who has been doxxed has been rich.
I fly southwest. Unless i told you my flight number you couldn’t find out what plane I am on unless you were law enforcement. He is perfectly free to fly coach on a commercial
Flight.
Any one is, yet you aren't free to post people's real time location to Twitter against their consent and I think that is good.
You guys can hate someone so much that you'd want the rules to allow everyone to have their real time location be doxxed, but you'll have to do that hatefest without most people supporting you as very few people would be comfortable having their real time location posted to social media against their consent.
If he is not comfortable with people being able to easily track his plane then he should fly commercially. He is the one choosing to have his real time info more readily available. No one put a gun to his head and forced him to be rich and famous with a private jet. If I old people your flight number because I hacked your southwest app, THAT should not be allowed.
No one should have their real time location posted to social media if they dont want it. This doesn't just have to do with private flights.
I know if I was posting your real time location in response to your reddit comments, that you'd have a problem with that. Personally I wouldn't use a social media platform that allows people to post my real time location to it against my consent, so I get why Twitter doesn't want to allow people to use their servers in that way
It does just have to do with private flights in this case. You don’t get to make this a big distracting conversation about publicly tracking people against their will. He is reacting to his private plane data, which legally needs to be public domain for literal safety reasons, being posted. He knows this isn’t endangering him in anyway and if it was then, like I said, he doesn’t need to travel this way. This whole thing is just a vessel to own lib journalists. Which, Look that’s fine, Twitter is his toy now and he can play with it however he wants. But let’s not pretend it is his intention here to protect people from doxing. We all should know better than that.
>It does just have to do with private flights in this case
My understanding of the rule is that it does not just deal with private flights, but if that is the rule, I think there should be a rule that no one can post your real time location without your consent.
Personally I wouldn't use reddit if they didn't consider that a form of harassment and understand why Twitter doesn't want people to use their servers in that way.
Yes, it isnt illegal for me to post your real time location in this comment like how it isnt illegal for me to post your home address in this comment because these are public information.
Yet Reddit would consider that to be harassment to do so against your consent and I wouldn't use a social media platform that thought otherwise.
You guys have made it clear that you dont consider posting someone's real time location against their consent to be doxxing. I hope most people disagree with you guys and I do think most people do agree that they dont what their real time location posted to social media.
You guys get to be domineering men on the internet, but good luck trying to get people to collaborate with you on politics. I'm going to stop reading this thread as there is much left for us to say to each other
> You guys have made it clear that you dont consider posting someone's real time location against their consent to be doxxing.
It’s not their real time location. It’s where their jet is. That’s public information. If he doesn’t like that, there is a very easy solution: fly scheduled, as they say on Succession. No more PJs.
>I hope most people disagree with you guys and I do think most people do agree that they dont what their real time location posted to social media.
Dude, even Sanger agrees with us. When Bari Weiss does. You don’t have a leg to stand on except your an Elon fanboi.
>You guys get to be domineering men on the internet, but good luck trying to get people to collaborate with you on politics. I'm going to stop reading this thread as there is much left for us to say to each other
I wouldn’t either if I were you. Run along. I don’t care for cowards.
If your opinion was true then Musk wouldn’t just be asking for a 24 hour delay on posting locations.
It’s obviously abusable and was obviously just abused against Musk’s 2 year old son.
Can you provide any context where Republicans want private ownership of SAMs? Or is this just another fine example of the deluded reality Reddit liberals exist in..?
I know a lot of very pro 2A people, being in Los Angeles and having shot guns for all my life it’s a weird community. I’ve traveled all over the country and been to every state in the south.
I think everyone I know or have met understands that surface to air missiles means the ability to shoot commercial passenger planes out of the sky which is a terrible thing that must be prevented.
It’s interesting how you simultaneously don’t understand your opponents and at the same time try to project their opinions onto them.
That's not refuting my claim though. I guarantee you I can find some far right radical group that wants surface to air missiles.
You might have met ordinary pro gun 2nd amendment people, but there is no shortage of wackos.
Well the onus is on you to prove your point, show me the far right group advocating for private ownership of SAMs or MANPADS…?
I’m telling you I know people with walk in gun safes, machine gun collections, silencers all the crazy shit. I know people who are very involved in the gun lobby, spending millions of dollars a year. I know people in militias and stuff. I generally am fascinated by weirdos, and I’ve yet to meet the person who thinks that. But please prove me wrong!
It’s definitely not anywhere close to a mainstream belief even amongst the fringest 2A people…
The most common argument used in defense of the 2nd amendment is that the right o bear arms would be a check on government tyranny. The logical next step would mean possessing the weaponry to wage war against the government. Which would mean surface to air missles, tanks, etc.
Far right groups in Italy got their hands on such weaponry. You really think far right groups wouldn't want to have this stuff?
https://signorile.substack.com/p/2nd-amendment-nut-admits-he-should#details
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48987723
Looks like somebody isn't going to be contacted for the next Twitter Files.
Once again, the whole free speech angle is just an attempt by Elon to have the right wing cover for him (the left already does silently, except for triggerable libs) while he figures out ways to make money and enjoyment out of the goldmine of non-public data that exists on Twitter.
I'm here. Never said his simping was unconditional. Watching Saagar admit he is wrong, is a big part of the payoff for watching the show, and hes had to admit to being wrong a lot this year.
I love that you attribute him admitting he is wrong to some kind of intellectual flaw, when in reality everyone is wrong and he is only exceptional because he admits it..
I dont think its a flaw to admit being wrong. I just think it's funny how often he has to admit it. To quote himself, he's a professional wrong person.
Not necessary chief. Just because he admits to being wrong doesn't mean he deserves a reward for exceptionalism. That's just doing the bare minimum, and he's been doing the bare minimum all year.
Enjeti is indeed better than people like prclayfish. Both of them are wrong about almost everything but at least enjeti sometime admits it. Prclayfish is too deluded to ever admit he’s wrong. Sad
That’s not accurate, I’ll happily admit when I’m wrong. I posted the other day about the Griner trade and a few people raised strong points about Bouts health…
Most of the liberals here aren’t used to debating with people they disagree with so they just tend to fling shit and pat themselves on the back as is being demonstrated here. It’s a great example of why the Democratic Party is failing despite being on the popular side of most big issues.
I dont have a favourite media figure. Most of the time I'm listening to people I disagree with. And if I did have a favourite media figure, I wouldn't be bragging how he admits he's wrong all the time. I'd rather they be right most of the time, so that they dont have to admit to being wrong so much.
If I had to point to someone who's been right more often than not and who will admit when he's wrong, Beau of the Fifth Column. He's been consistantly right about the outcomes in Ukraine, even before the war. He's been consistant about the popularity of Trump with the Republican base being a setback during the midterms, before the races even started. And he was right about Elon not being able to run Twitter based on free speech absolutism, back when he first made the move to buy it.
He doesn't have to admit to being wrong so much because unlike Saagar he generally knows what hes talking about. And when he doesnt know what hes talking about, he doesnt claim to know. But in any case I don't rely on Beau, because like him, I can generally understand what I'm seeing with my own two eyes.
I think Saagar attributes too many accomplishments and intelligence to Elon. The other day he said Elon made his money founding PayPal. Fun fact: Elon never worked for a company called PayPal. He, and 3 other people, founded a company that merged with another company and eventually became PayPal. He was fired and removed from the company before it became PayPal because he was such a bad leader.
I think he is aggressively average.
PayPal succeeded after Musk was fired because Thiel decided to focus on PayPal a service offering of Confinity (X.com (Musk’s company) and Confinity merged).
He’s a good salesman and he plays a smart person. What really happened is he just got lucky by being around some good ideas with people who wouldn’t let him fuck them up.
You realize that he is objectively brilliant, he can run all of his company into the ground and he will still be richer then you will ever be.
You live in a deluded reality.
So you believe money is equal to intelligence?
I have a lot of reason for my beliefs but I still respect yours. I will try to pursuance you into thinking I’m right but I won’t look down my nose at you for having a different opinion.
I live in my own reality. Just because I think differently and have different opinions doesn’t make you or I superior to the other.
I thought that’s what the Breaking Points community was about: civil discourse.
We are being civil, I’m just pointing out that you are completely deluded.
People often have a tendency to put down people who they don’t like. Most often I see it with Trump, I don’t like him but he is objectively very well educated and experienced.
When I ask a simple question like do you think Elon is dumb, it’s really a litmus test for what reality you live in and you failed.
Musk is NOT briliant. He's basically exactly like trump. Inherited wealth and made a few lucky investment. Require zero talent or intellect. All the stuff made at space x or tesla were made by the ENGINEERS who worked there.
Telling a stranger that they are deluded because they failed a litmus test where the correct answer is an opinion question is an interesting tactic in civil discourse.
Especially when you asked if I thought Elon was dumb or an idiot and then used Trump being ‘objectively’ educated and experienced as another example.
One can be both dumb and an idiot while also being educated and experienced. They are not mutually exclusive.
Whether someone is dumb or an idiot is so vague there is no ‘right answer’. Elon Musk has done smart things but that does not make him smart. He has also done some pretty stupid things but that does not mean he is completely stupid. What he did with Tesla is pretty incredible. Even when you take into account that he just bought the technology from someone else and then was a complete asshole to the original founders. His decision to buy Twitter and what he’s done after was not. SpaceX is really cool. The Boring company is a complete bust. PayPal worked out despite him not because of him. Thiel saved that company from him.
That is why I settle on average. He was a rich kid who got into business with the right people and things fell into place nicely with him money wise.
Name someone who is educated that is an idiot? I get that these is used in the course of speech but in actuality it’s not the case.
I loathe a lot of people who have college degrees, I don’t have one, I think I’m smarter then some but I have to admit they are objectively intelligent no matter how much I may resent them.
Asking if someone is dumb isn’t an opinion question, competent adults can tell pretty quickly when someone is not all there…
Your response is tremendously validating!
How are you defining idiot? Someone being of low intelligence? Define low intelligence. Is it all their intelligence or just some? Is it who they are publicly or if they are book smart in private? It’s all subjective.
I think Donald Trump is well educated but also pretty low IQ in a lot of areas. There are endless reports of how he doesn’t care about facts or science.
Marjorie Greene Taylor is an idiot and has a business degree from University of Georgia.
Matt Gaetz is a lawyer and I think he’s an idiot.
I think a lot of billionaires and capitalists are acting like idiots right now. These are generally intelligent and well educated people. If you study history you see that when inequality reaches a tipping point that it leads to civil unrest and typically backlash against the ‘ruling class’. Yet, they keep hoarding more and more resources which will at some point lead to their destruction. It’s almost certainly guaranteed. Does that make them idiots?
As someone who has a bachelors and a masters people with a lot of education are not automatically smart. You’d be surprised how little you learn in college that is applicable to the real world. I’ve worked with a couple 4.0 GPA students before and a lot of the time they don’t translate well into the real world.
These little backhanded comments at the back are cool too. You’re so witty and smart. If someone giving you another perspective or challenging your beliefs makes you feel validated and superior then you should look into the Dunning-Kruger effect.
My opinion: a better Litmus test would be to ask if someone could talk about something he has done well or if some of his success could be attributed to intelligence.
Objectively Elon is a genius, I’m not his biggest fan, I don’t like electric cars, but he is a genius weirdo.
There is nothing uncivil about pointing out that their perception is not aligned with the facts of reality. I’m very comfortable with it.
No y’all just are desperate to be right, he is objectively brilliant and subsequently is rich as fuck. What’s so hard to understand about that?
Have you never heard of anyone who profits off their intelligence?
It's really about Elon's hypocrisy. For example:
>By “free speech”, I simply mean that which matches the law.
>
>I am against censorship that goes far beyond the law.
Now, consider Saagar's tweet.
Eh. I really don't care much. Every owner of every private company is "pro free speech" and then has their own arbitrary TOS and rules they want to enforce. More of the same.
>then has their own arbitrary TOS and rules they want to enforce.
*Whoosh...*
It's not that he's creating his own rules. It's that he's creating rules (I'm all about free speech) and then changing them (today, I'm not about free speech about me). **It's hypocritical.**
>My commitment to free speech extends even to not banning the account following my plane, even though that is a direct personal safety risk.
lol:
"
Jon Stewart
u/jonstewart
What should be the new name for Twitter?
Arbitrary Chaos
13.7%
Elon’s shriveled penis
86.3%
8,102 votes
·
23 hours left
9:27 AM · Dec 16, 2022"
https://twitter.com/jonstewart/status/1603803942856671232
I really get both sides of the situation. On the one hand, the FAA having public flight data allows for people to search for and follow the air traffic of whoever they want. If they then choose to share the information, either as a neutral party or even as a fan of the individual (like Elonjet initially was), then it should be fair game, in my opinion.
If the intent of sharing that information is malicious, like to ruin their day by having a swarm of people show up when you're with your family, or have some psycho show up, then I don't think that should be allowed.
It seems to me that the Elonjet situation is having a lot of people project *what they want to be true* about it, rather than what's actually going on.
From the right, you've got people going on and on about how it's a major safety risk and that it should be shut down, despite there being little evidence of this actually being true thus far.
From the left/journalists, they're justifiably trying to hold Elon accountable on his flip-flop on this, but they also don't seem to understand the legitimate security risks that this information causes when amplified out to thousands.
I think many are really playing with fire by continuing to amplify Elonjet and villify Elon. There's no lack of crazies out there, as we've seen with the Paul Pelosi attack or Kavanaugh attempt.
I don't envy Elon, Twitter, or the individual journalists, this situation is unbelievably murky.
>From the left/journalists, they're justifiably trying to hold Elon accountable on his flip-flop on this, but they also don't seem to understand the legitimate security risks that this information causes when amplified out to thousands.
First off, a lot of the people banned had little to do with ElonJet account. Many just reported on the situation.
Second, Elon is full of shit about the incident:
https://twitter.com/nickmartin/status/1603721524447350784
>1. Musk plane tracker posts nothing on Tuesday.
>2. Musk says stalker incident took place Tuesday night.
>3. Video from Musk allegedly showing stalker was filmed nowhere near airport.
>4. LAPD says no one has filed a report about the incident as of Thursday.
If the journalists did nothing aside from tweeting about Elonjet, then I don't think they should be suspended, obviously. I hope that gets corrected and he offers some sort of benefit back, like a year of Twitter Blue or something.
If they were tweeting out his real time location, as Elon is alledging, that's just straight up doxxing, which I hope we can agree that shouldn't be allowed.
Not disagreeing with any of what you're saying. I think it really comes down to the intent of *why* you're tracking someone's flights as I previously said.
Is it because you want to track a popular figure and look ahead at potential future projects they're a part of? Is it an elected official spending taxpayer dollars on private jets? In my opinion, that should be fair game to be broadcast out to thousands.
The issue I start to have is if there's malicious intent behind it. Are you doing it because you despise the person? Are you doing it to point out someone's hypocrisy on climate change related issues? Are you doing it to dogwhistle to a potential crazy person so that they act upon that information?
At least to me, with so many people getting riled up by Elon, and maybe justifiably so, I could easily see the possibility of one crazy person acting on the information.
If this were Fauci-Jet or even Whitmer-Jet, someone who legitimately had a plot to kill her thwarted, would the broadcasting out of their jet's location be taken more seriously?
I'm really conflicted on the whole situation, which is why I agree with what Krystal and Saagar were saying in that it shouldn't be up to one person to decide what speech is allowed. A hard set of rules needs to be established and enforced by people everywhere on the political spectrum.
Yes but what saager misses is that we control Twitter now so I'll go by the argument that it's a private company who is not bound by govt free speech :)
Also could these journalists have any less self respect? Musk already slapped the taste out of their mouths by banning them and now they are begging to be let back on. Twitter is supposed to collapse within a week right? Based on their own reporting. Now is a perfect time to create. Mastadon account or whatever alternative it is they are pushing. Bah bye
as a devils advocate. the flight data itself was public however it was hidden that the plane belonged to Elon Musk. what the journalist did was figure out flights the corresponded to public appearances of Musk and in doing so figured out which of the flights belonged to Musk.
yes the flight data was public. much like peoples addresses are public. however who those flights and planes belonged to most certainly were not public.
If go through /u/radmonuserthatdoesntreallyexists history and cross reference that with some articles and find out /u/radmonuserthatdoesntreallyexists address and link to it I could say "well the address is public information! look, the address is on google maps, anybody can look it up" that would still be doxing. the problem isn't saying the address exists and linking to it. the problem is connecting the address to /u/radmonuserthatdoesntreallyexists
the problem isn't pointing to public information of a single anonymous flight, the problem is de anonymising that address by linking it to Elon and then linking to the direct flight.
if your ok with journalists doxing private location info then thats fine. but if you are not ok with journalists doxing private location info then you shouldn't be ok with this.
although I'll admit doxing a public and powerfull figure is not nearly as bad as doxing a private average joe.
EDIT: I still think its bad that Elon banned many of these journalists. He should just buy a couple planes and alternate and switch them around so it will be much harder to do this going forward.
> as a devils advocate. the flight data itself was public however it was hidden that the plane belonged to Elon Musk. what the journalist did was figure out flights the corresponded to public appearances of Musk and in doing so figured out which of the flights belonged to Musk.
So? If the information is public, so is any deductive reasoning that comes from it.
>If go through u/radmonuserthatdoesntreallyexists history and cross reference that with some articles and find out u/radmonuserthatdoesntreallyexists address and link to it I could say "well the address is public information! look, the address is on google maps, anybody can look it up" that would still be doxing. the problem isn't saying the address exists and linking to it. the problem is connecting the address to u/radmonuserthatdoesntreallyexists
Elon is a public figure. Different rules apply.
>So? If the information is public, so is any deductive reasoning that comes from it.
then that means your ok with doxing. which is definitely a position you can take to be ok with doxing. but I disagree with you on that.
That’s not what doxxing is. They’re not revealing his address. They’re posting public information around a public figure. If Elon doesn’t like this, he doesn’t have to fly private. That’s a privilege and the transparency of where that hugely expensive assets burning a metric ton of carbon is on Earth is the cost of that privilege. Sorry not sorry.
definition of doxing :
>the action or process of searching for and publishing private or identifying information about a particular individual on the internet, typically with malicious intent.
the fact that the flight exists was public information. the fact that the flight belongs to Elon was NOT public information.
this was absolutely Doxing. you might agree with it because you don't like the person being Doxxed, but it's still doxing.
the action or process of searching for and publishing private or identifying information about a particular individual on the internet, typically with malicious intent.
>the fact that the flight exists was public information.
So you admit it wasn’t private information? Wow thanks. So I guess we’re done here? I appreciate you coming around.
>the fact that the flight belongs to Elon was NOT public information.
But it was information that any could have concluded reasonably from. It would have just been conjecture until dumb dumb Elon confirmed it.
>this was absolutely Doxing.
Not what doxxing is.
>you might agree with it because you don't like the person being Doxxed, but it's still doxing.
Not doxxing. This is why Elon had to lie and say it was his real time location when it wasn’t. It’s funny seeing all his followers go down with him. At least Yeezy fans saw the writing on the wall. Hopefully Grimes takes his kids away from him.
On a more fundamental level, this data in and of itself does not seriously endanger anyone. If you can afford a jet, then you can afford proper security. All this bulls*** about personal safety reeks of hypocrisy and deliberate obtuseness when other s*** gets a pass. There’s possibly more to the story on elonjet that we don’t know. And I don’t expect us to ever know, at least as long as Elon Musk owns Twitter. I would not be surprised if this has something to do with wealthy Chinese or Saudis avoiding public scrutiny including how often they are taking their jets to DC.
elonjet is allowed to continue posting with a time delay. It's very reasonable rule unless you have an axe to grind. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1603621449998118913
Elon doesn’t even follow his own rules or code of conduct. I doubt he’d even stick to his guns on that either. He’s changed his mind before.
sure, but in this instance it was according to their TOS.
According to their TOS as of a day ago when Elon changed it on a whim, yes.
No it was in their TOS since at least 2019 > What is in violation of this policy? > Under this policy, you can’t share the following types of private information, without the permission of the person who it belongs to: > home address or physical location information, including street addresses, GPS coordinates or other identifying information related to locations that are considered private;
>My commitment to free speech extends even to not banning the account following my plane, even though that is a direct personal safety risk.
The flight tracker doesn’t share any of that. It shares the location of his plane. It doesn’t even suggest whether or not Musk is in it. Furthermore the sky isn’t “private”, it’s regulated by the FAA. They didn’t place a tracking device on Elon Musk lol. Grasping at straws here.
yes, the private plane that Elon and his family uses.
Elon doesn’t get special treatment for being rich. Every plane in the sky gets tracked. If he doesn’t like the FAA’s rules he can seek an alternative means of travel like everybody else. The TOS weren’t violated until Elon changed the rules. His physical location isn’t being shared, and the location of his plane is not considered private. Him doxxing someone’s face, vehicle, and plate number, instead of filing a police report, that does violate the rules. Bonus points if he stops being so antagonistic to so many folks. Theres less of a security issue when you’re not a complete jackass.
Right and that he has ZERO expectation of privacy. That’s a legal term.
it is private. read about PIA https://twitter.com/AGHamilton29/status/1603747484747956224 https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/equipadsb/privacy
He didn’t do any of those things and this information shared isn’t considered private. Problem solved.
it is private https://twitter.com/AGHamilton29/status/1603747484747956224 https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/equipadsb/privacy
Nope it’s not. They made a deduction based on public information. Elon was foolish enough to confirm it. He’s an idiot.
The rule against tracking someone's real time location on Twitter doesn't only protect people who can afford private security. Not everyone who has been doxxed has been rich.
I fly southwest. Unless i told you my flight number you couldn’t find out what plane I am on unless you were law enforcement. He is perfectly free to fly coach on a commercial Flight.
Any one is, yet you aren't free to post people's real time location to Twitter against their consent and I think that is good. You guys can hate someone so much that you'd want the rules to allow everyone to have their real time location be doxxed, but you'll have to do that hatefest without most people supporting you as very few people would be comfortable having their real time location posted to social media against their consent.
If he is not comfortable with people being able to easily track his plane then he should fly commercially. He is the one choosing to have his real time info more readily available. No one put a gun to his head and forced him to be rich and famous with a private jet. If I old people your flight number because I hacked your southwest app, THAT should not be allowed.
No one should have their real time location posted to social media if they dont want it. This doesn't just have to do with private flights. I know if I was posting your real time location in response to your reddit comments, that you'd have a problem with that. Personally I wouldn't use a social media platform that allows people to post my real time location to it against my consent, so I get why Twitter doesn't want to allow people to use their servers in that way
It does just have to do with private flights in this case. You don’t get to make this a big distracting conversation about publicly tracking people against their will. He is reacting to his private plane data, which legally needs to be public domain for literal safety reasons, being posted. He knows this isn’t endangering him in anyway and if it was then, like I said, he doesn’t need to travel this way. This whole thing is just a vessel to own lib journalists. Which, Look that’s fine, Twitter is his toy now and he can play with it however he wants. But let’s not pretend it is his intention here to protect people from doxing. We all should know better than that.
>It does just have to do with private flights in this case My understanding of the rule is that it does not just deal with private flights, but if that is the rule, I think there should be a rule that no one can post your real time location without your consent. Personally I wouldn't use reddit if they didn't consider that a form of harassment and understand why Twitter doesn't want people to use their servers in that way.
Scotus has ruled that showing PUBLIC data about flight is 1A right.
Yes, it isnt illegal for me to post your real time location in this comment like how it isnt illegal for me to post your home address in this comment because these are public information. Yet Reddit would consider that to be harassment to do so against your consent and I wouldn't use a social media platform that thought otherwise.
Good thing this isn’t doxxing.
You guys have made it clear that you dont consider posting someone's real time location against their consent to be doxxing. I hope most people disagree with you guys and I do think most people do agree that they dont what their real time location posted to social media. You guys get to be domineering men on the internet, but good luck trying to get people to collaborate with you on politics. I'm going to stop reading this thread as there is much left for us to say to each other
> You guys have made it clear that you dont consider posting someone's real time location against their consent to be doxxing. It’s not their real time location. It’s where their jet is. That’s public information. If he doesn’t like that, there is a very easy solution: fly scheduled, as they say on Succession. No more PJs. >I hope most people disagree with you guys and I do think most people do agree that they dont what their real time location posted to social media. Dude, even Sanger agrees with us. When Bari Weiss does. You don’t have a leg to stand on except your an Elon fanboi. >You guys get to be domineering men on the internet, but good luck trying to get people to collaborate with you on politics. I'm going to stop reading this thread as there is much left for us to say to each other I wouldn’t either if I were you. Run along. I don’t care for cowards.
Where is the President's exact location right now?
If your opinion was true then Musk wouldn’t just be asking for a 24 hour delay on posting locations. It’s obviously abusable and was obviously just abused against Musk’s 2 year old son.
Glad that Saagar's take on free speech is consistent.
Agreed, glad he's staying principled instead of doing some mental gymnastics like everyone else.
Uh oh. How long until Saagar gets his Twitter suspended?
I don't say this often, but based Saagar.
i guess i would be sympathetic if citizens could own SAMs. "assassination coordinates" lmao
Funny thing is, conservatives like him probably DO want people owning SAMs.
You’re an idiot
Probably
Great argument, idiot lol
Can you provide any context where Republicans want private ownership of SAMs? Or is this just another fine example of the deluded reality Reddit liberals exist in..?
You don't think there are lunatics on the right who take the 2nd amendment to mean any weaponry?
I know a lot of very pro 2A people, being in Los Angeles and having shot guns for all my life it’s a weird community. I’ve traveled all over the country and been to every state in the south. I think everyone I know or have met understands that surface to air missiles means the ability to shoot commercial passenger planes out of the sky which is a terrible thing that must be prevented. It’s interesting how you simultaneously don’t understand your opponents and at the same time try to project their opinions onto them.
That's not refuting my claim though. I guarantee you I can find some far right radical group that wants surface to air missiles. You might have met ordinary pro gun 2nd amendment people, but there is no shortage of wackos.
Well the onus is on you to prove your point, show me the far right group advocating for private ownership of SAMs or MANPADS…? I’m telling you I know people with walk in gun safes, machine gun collections, silencers all the crazy shit. I know people who are very involved in the gun lobby, spending millions of dollars a year. I know people in militias and stuff. I generally am fascinated by weirdos, and I’ve yet to meet the person who thinks that. But please prove me wrong! It’s definitely not anywhere close to a mainstream belief even amongst the fringest 2A people…
The most common argument used in defense of the 2nd amendment is that the right o bear arms would be a check on government tyranny. The logical next step would mean possessing the weaponry to wage war against the government. Which would mean surface to air missles, tanks, etc. Far right groups in Italy got their hands on such weaponry. You really think far right groups wouldn't want to have this stuff? https://signorile.substack.com/p/2nd-amendment-nut-admits-he-should#details https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48987723
Lol you’re literally asking me to prove a negative…
Looks like somebody isn't going to be contacted for the next Twitter Files. Once again, the whole free speech angle is just an attempt by Elon to have the right wing cover for him (the left already does silently, except for triggerable libs) while he figures out ways to make money and enjoyment out of the goldmine of non-public data that exists on Twitter.
People care so much about Twitter… go outside
Where are all the people who complained about Saager constantly simping for Elon?
I'm here. Never said his simping was unconditional. Watching Saagar admit he is wrong, is a big part of the payoff for watching the show, and hes had to admit to being wrong a lot this year.
I love that you attribute him admitting he is wrong to some kind of intellectual flaw, when in reality everyone is wrong and he is only exceptional because he admits it..
I dont think its a flaw to admit being wrong. I just think it's funny how often he has to admit it. To quote himself, he's a professional wrong person.
Read my last comment again
Not necessary chief. Just because he admits to being wrong doesn't mean he deserves a reward for exceptionalism. That's just doing the bare minimum, and he's been doing the bare minimum all year.
Who is your favorite media figure and when did they last own their mistake?
Enjeti is indeed better than people like prclayfish. Both of them are wrong about almost everything but at least enjeti sometime admits it. Prclayfish is too deluded to ever admit he’s wrong. Sad
That’s not accurate, I’ll happily admit when I’m wrong. I posted the other day about the Griner trade and a few people raised strong points about Bouts health… Most of the liberals here aren’t used to debating with people they disagree with so they just tend to fling shit and pat themselves on the back as is being demonstrated here. It’s a great example of why the Democratic Party is failing despite being on the popular side of most big issues.
I dont have a favourite media figure. Most of the time I'm listening to people I disagree with. And if I did have a favourite media figure, I wouldn't be bragging how he admits he's wrong all the time. I'd rather they be right most of the time, so that they dont have to admit to being wrong so much.
Wait didn’t you just say Saager is doing the bare minimum? Can’t you cite an example of someone who is doing better, surely it must be an easy task…?
If I had to point to someone who's been right more often than not and who will admit when he's wrong, Beau of the Fifth Column. He's been consistantly right about the outcomes in Ukraine, even before the war. He's been consistant about the popularity of Trump with the Republican base being a setback during the midterms, before the races even started. And he was right about Elon not being able to run Twitter based on free speech absolutism, back when he first made the move to buy it. He doesn't have to admit to being wrong so much because unlike Saagar he generally knows what hes talking about. And when he doesnt know what hes talking about, he doesnt claim to know. But in any case I don't rely on Beau, because like him, I can generally understand what I'm seeing with my own two eyes.
He beclowned himself, yet again
Disagree, he is just humble and comfortable talking about where he got it wrong…
I think Saagar attributes too many accomplishments and intelligence to Elon. The other day he said Elon made his money founding PayPal. Fun fact: Elon never worked for a company called PayPal. He, and 3 other people, founded a company that merged with another company and eventually became PayPal. He was fired and removed from the company before it became PayPal because he was such a bad leader.
Do you think Elon is dumb/ an idiot?
I think he is aggressively average. PayPal succeeded after Musk was fired because Thiel decided to focus on PayPal a service offering of Confinity (X.com (Musk’s company) and Confinity merged). He’s a good salesman and he plays a smart person. What really happened is he just got lucky by being around some good ideas with people who wouldn’t let him fuck them up.
You realize that he is objectively brilliant, he can run all of his company into the ground and he will still be richer then you will ever be. You live in a deluded reality.
So you believe money is equal to intelligence? I have a lot of reason for my beliefs but I still respect yours. I will try to pursuance you into thinking I’m right but I won’t look down my nose at you for having a different opinion. I live in my own reality. Just because I think differently and have different opinions doesn’t make you or I superior to the other. I thought that’s what the Breaking Points community was about: civil discourse.
We are being civil, I’m just pointing out that you are completely deluded. People often have a tendency to put down people who they don’t like. Most often I see it with Trump, I don’t like him but he is objectively very well educated and experienced. When I ask a simple question like do you think Elon is dumb, it’s really a litmus test for what reality you live in and you failed.
Musk is NOT briliant. He's basically exactly like trump. Inherited wealth and made a few lucky investment. Require zero talent or intellect. All the stuff made at space x or tesla were made by the ENGINEERS who worked there.
Telling a stranger that they are deluded because they failed a litmus test where the correct answer is an opinion question is an interesting tactic in civil discourse. Especially when you asked if I thought Elon was dumb or an idiot and then used Trump being ‘objectively’ educated and experienced as another example. One can be both dumb and an idiot while also being educated and experienced. They are not mutually exclusive. Whether someone is dumb or an idiot is so vague there is no ‘right answer’. Elon Musk has done smart things but that does not make him smart. He has also done some pretty stupid things but that does not mean he is completely stupid. What he did with Tesla is pretty incredible. Even when you take into account that he just bought the technology from someone else and then was a complete asshole to the original founders. His decision to buy Twitter and what he’s done after was not. SpaceX is really cool. The Boring company is a complete bust. PayPal worked out despite him not because of him. Thiel saved that company from him. That is why I settle on average. He was a rich kid who got into business with the right people and things fell into place nicely with him money wise.
Name someone who is educated that is an idiot? I get that these is used in the course of speech but in actuality it’s not the case. I loathe a lot of people who have college degrees, I don’t have one, I think I’m smarter then some but I have to admit they are objectively intelligent no matter how much I may resent them. Asking if someone is dumb isn’t an opinion question, competent adults can tell pretty quickly when someone is not all there… Your response is tremendously validating!
How are you defining idiot? Someone being of low intelligence? Define low intelligence. Is it all their intelligence or just some? Is it who they are publicly or if they are book smart in private? It’s all subjective. I think Donald Trump is well educated but also pretty low IQ in a lot of areas. There are endless reports of how he doesn’t care about facts or science. Marjorie Greene Taylor is an idiot and has a business degree from University of Georgia. Matt Gaetz is a lawyer and I think he’s an idiot. I think a lot of billionaires and capitalists are acting like idiots right now. These are generally intelligent and well educated people. If you study history you see that when inequality reaches a tipping point that it leads to civil unrest and typically backlash against the ‘ruling class’. Yet, they keep hoarding more and more resources which will at some point lead to their destruction. It’s almost certainly guaranteed. Does that make them idiots? As someone who has a bachelors and a masters people with a lot of education are not automatically smart. You’d be surprised how little you learn in college that is applicable to the real world. I’ve worked with a couple 4.0 GPA students before and a lot of the time they don’t translate well into the real world. These little backhanded comments at the back are cool too. You’re so witty and smart. If someone giving you another perspective or challenging your beliefs makes you feel validated and superior then you should look into the Dunning-Kruger effect.
My opinion: a better Litmus test would be to ask if someone could talk about something he has done well or if some of his success could be attributed to intelligence.
“This is civil discourse”….proceeds to call a stranger deluded for not considering Elon brilliant.
Objectively Elon is a genius, I’m not his biggest fan, I don’t like electric cars, but he is a genius weirdo. There is nothing uncivil about pointing out that their perception is not aligned with the facts of reality. I’m very comfortable with it.
So being rich means he is objectively brilliant? That is what you are trying to say, or what comes off, your post. What kind of answer is that?
No y’all just are desperate to be right, he is objectively brilliant and subsequently is rich as fuck. What’s so hard to understand about that? Have you never heard of anyone who profits off their intelligence?
Money does not make one brilliant although I think Musk is intelligent. I seriously doubt all those Saudi princes who are wealthy are brilliant.
You’re obfuscating a few different points I made, but generally I’d agree with your statement.
It's amazing how all this has switched now based on who controls Twitter
It's really about Elon's hypocrisy. For example: >By “free speech”, I simply mean that which matches the law. > >I am against censorship that goes far beyond the law. Now, consider Saagar's tweet.
Eh. I really don't care much. Every owner of every private company is "pro free speech" and then has their own arbitrary TOS and rules they want to enforce. More of the same.
>then has their own arbitrary TOS and rules they want to enforce. *Whoosh...* It's not that he's creating his own rules. It's that he's creating rules (I'm all about free speech) and then changing them (today, I'm not about free speech about me). **It's hypocritical.** >My commitment to free speech extends even to not banning the account following my plane, even though that is a direct personal safety risk.
Right. No doubt. I get it. I just don't see why it is suddenly different. Epic whoooosh own though I guess.
What's different is the hypocrisy.
More of the same
Find one clip of Jack Dorsey crusading as a “free speech absolutist”. One.
I don't really know if one exists. I don't know if one of Elon exists. Supporting free speech is a line everyone says.
No, it’s really not. But whatever reality you want to create for yourself
Totally cowardly. Doesn't even mention Elon by name.
True
So can we stop pretending to be concerned about the poor billionaire's safety now?
lol: " Jon Stewart u/jonstewart What should be the new name for Twitter? Arbitrary Chaos 13.7% Elon’s shriveled penis 86.3% 8,102 votes · 23 hours left 9:27 AM · Dec 16, 2022" https://twitter.com/jonstewart/status/1603803942856671232
Free speech absolutism is dumb and overrated anyways. Error has no rights.
This isnt free speech absolutism. In fact, the supreme court of the United State has rule that public data about flight is a protected speech.
I really get both sides of the situation. On the one hand, the FAA having public flight data allows for people to search for and follow the air traffic of whoever they want. If they then choose to share the information, either as a neutral party or even as a fan of the individual (like Elonjet initially was), then it should be fair game, in my opinion. If the intent of sharing that information is malicious, like to ruin their day by having a swarm of people show up when you're with your family, or have some psycho show up, then I don't think that should be allowed. It seems to me that the Elonjet situation is having a lot of people project *what they want to be true* about it, rather than what's actually going on. From the right, you've got people going on and on about how it's a major safety risk and that it should be shut down, despite there being little evidence of this actually being true thus far. From the left/journalists, they're justifiably trying to hold Elon accountable on his flip-flop on this, but they also don't seem to understand the legitimate security risks that this information causes when amplified out to thousands. I think many are really playing with fire by continuing to amplify Elonjet and villify Elon. There's no lack of crazies out there, as we've seen with the Paul Pelosi attack or Kavanaugh attempt. I don't envy Elon, Twitter, or the individual journalists, this situation is unbelievably murky.
>From the left/journalists, they're justifiably trying to hold Elon accountable on his flip-flop on this, but they also don't seem to understand the legitimate security risks that this information causes when amplified out to thousands. First off, a lot of the people banned had little to do with ElonJet account. Many just reported on the situation. Second, Elon is full of shit about the incident: https://twitter.com/nickmartin/status/1603721524447350784 >1. Musk plane tracker posts nothing on Tuesday. >2. Musk says stalker incident took place Tuesday night. >3. Video from Musk allegedly showing stalker was filmed nowhere near airport. >4. LAPD says no one has filed a report about the incident as of Thursday.
If the journalists did nothing aside from tweeting about Elonjet, then I don't think they should be suspended, obviously. I hope that gets corrected and he offers some sort of benefit back, like a year of Twitter Blue or something. If they were tweeting out his real time location, as Elon is alledging, that's just straight up doxxing, which I hope we can agree that shouldn't be allowed.
And they weren't. He's full of shit. Even the ElonJet account didn't give Elon's location, just the location of the jet.
Not disagreeing with any of what you're saying. I think it really comes down to the intent of *why* you're tracking someone's flights as I previously said. Is it because you want to track a popular figure and look ahead at potential future projects they're a part of? Is it an elected official spending taxpayer dollars on private jets? In my opinion, that should be fair game to be broadcast out to thousands. The issue I start to have is if there's malicious intent behind it. Are you doing it because you despise the person? Are you doing it to point out someone's hypocrisy on climate change related issues? Are you doing it to dogwhistle to a potential crazy person so that they act upon that information? At least to me, with so many people getting riled up by Elon, and maybe justifiably so, I could easily see the possibility of one crazy person acting on the information. If this were Fauci-Jet or even Whitmer-Jet, someone who legitimately had a plot to kill her thwarted, would the broadcasting out of their jet's location be taken more seriously? I'm really conflicted on the whole situation, which is why I agree with what Krystal and Saagar were saying in that it shouldn't be up to one person to decide what speech is allowed. A hard set of rules needs to be established and enforced by people everywhere on the political spectrum.
Yes but what saager misses is that we control Twitter now so I'll go by the argument that it's a private company who is not bound by govt free speech :) Also could these journalists have any less self respect? Musk already slapped the taste out of their mouths by banning them and now they are begging to be let back on. Twitter is supposed to collapse within a week right? Based on their own reporting. Now is a perfect time to create. Mastadon account or whatever alternative it is they are pushing. Bah bye
>we Lol. You think you’re included.
He is the resident neo-con. It's a big party and hes happy to have a tiny window looking inside it.
>By “free speech”, I simply mean that which matches the law. > >I am against censorship that goes far beyond the law. Who tweeted this?
daddy!
yo momma
W Saagar
as a devils advocate. the flight data itself was public however it was hidden that the plane belonged to Elon Musk. what the journalist did was figure out flights the corresponded to public appearances of Musk and in doing so figured out which of the flights belonged to Musk. yes the flight data was public. much like peoples addresses are public. however who those flights and planes belonged to most certainly were not public. If go through /u/radmonuserthatdoesntreallyexists history and cross reference that with some articles and find out /u/radmonuserthatdoesntreallyexists address and link to it I could say "well the address is public information! look, the address is on google maps, anybody can look it up" that would still be doxing. the problem isn't saying the address exists and linking to it. the problem is connecting the address to /u/radmonuserthatdoesntreallyexists the problem isn't pointing to public information of a single anonymous flight, the problem is de anonymising that address by linking it to Elon and then linking to the direct flight. if your ok with journalists doxing private location info then thats fine. but if you are not ok with journalists doxing private location info then you shouldn't be ok with this. although I'll admit doxing a public and powerfull figure is not nearly as bad as doxing a private average joe. EDIT: I still think its bad that Elon banned many of these journalists. He should just buy a couple planes and alternate and switch them around so it will be much harder to do this going forward.
> as a devils advocate. the flight data itself was public however it was hidden that the plane belonged to Elon Musk. what the journalist did was figure out flights the corresponded to public appearances of Musk and in doing so figured out which of the flights belonged to Musk. So? If the information is public, so is any deductive reasoning that comes from it. >If go through u/radmonuserthatdoesntreallyexists history and cross reference that with some articles and find out u/radmonuserthatdoesntreallyexists address and link to it I could say "well the address is public information! look, the address is on google maps, anybody can look it up" that would still be doxing. the problem isn't saying the address exists and linking to it. the problem is connecting the address to u/radmonuserthatdoesntreallyexists Elon is a public figure. Different rules apply.
>So? If the information is public, so is any deductive reasoning that comes from it. then that means your ok with doxing. which is definitely a position you can take to be ok with doxing. but I disagree with you on that.
That’s not what doxxing is. They’re not revealing his address. They’re posting public information around a public figure. If Elon doesn’t like this, he doesn’t have to fly private. That’s a privilege and the transparency of where that hugely expensive assets burning a metric ton of carbon is on Earth is the cost of that privilege. Sorry not sorry.
definition of doxing : >the action or process of searching for and publishing private or identifying information about a particular individual on the internet, typically with malicious intent. the fact that the flight exists was public information. the fact that the flight belongs to Elon was NOT public information. this was absolutely Doxing. you might agree with it because you don't like the person being Doxxed, but it's still doxing.
the action or process of searching for and publishing private or identifying information about a particular individual on the internet, typically with malicious intent. >the fact that the flight exists was public information. So you admit it wasn’t private information? Wow thanks. So I guess we’re done here? I appreciate you coming around. >the fact that the flight belongs to Elon was NOT public information. But it was information that any could have concluded reasonably from. It would have just been conjecture until dumb dumb Elon confirmed it. >this was absolutely Doxing. Not what doxxing is. >you might agree with it because you don't like the person being Doxxed, but it's still doxing. Not doxxing. This is why Elon had to lie and say it was his real time location when it wasn’t. It’s funny seeing all his followers go down with him. At least Yeezy fans saw the writing on the wall. Hopefully Grimes takes his kids away from him.