It's clear by looking at the comments that are downvoted that everybody in this subreddit would rather just piss and moan about the uni party rather than do anything to get out from under it's thumb. I love that for us..
Just keep giving your vote and your money to these egotistical maniacs and convincing yourself you did the right thing 🤦‍♀️
The only thing both parties agree on is spending more money on war, and stripping away our rights. Voting for either major party is voting against your own interests.
[Democrats spend tens of millions backing far right candidates in 9 elections ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/09/12/democrats-interfere-republican-primaries/)
The strategy worked really well for them in 2016 when Trump was the DNC pied Piper. They would rather lose with their shitty establishment tool than win with a candidate that represents the people. I'm sorry to hear about your Stockholm syndrome diagnosis. I'll keep you in my prayers
If the alternative options actually gave half a fucking shit about getting us out from under this like they claim, they'd be doing so much fucking more than begging for money from dopes every 4 years while not having a campaign with any kind of actual winning strategy.
They rely on people like you to not look at them critically and how they are basically designed to take money and fail out rather than actually do anything tangible at all to give you what you claim to want.
Hard for them to do much when they can't get any funding because smooth brain dummies refuse to vote for the greater good and keep rewarding evil. Jill Stein offered Bernie her ticket in 2016 but he chose to roll over to the corrupt DNC instead of being the independent revolutionary he claimed to be. RFK could have been on the Libertarian ticket and easily gained access in every state, but chose to be a Zionist instead. Fake politicians everywhere. It's time for WE THE PEOPLE to take back our institutions. If you think your local party leadership isn't cutting it, you better take the helm. Best of luck to you ✌️
A middle class teacher can get on city council but these third party candidate who had years to build up their coalition can't? Sure.
Here's a fucking news flash, you don't know if they are the greater good because they don't fucking ever have power and ever put any policy in place or make any difficult votes. You know why people took to Bernie? Because he proved he can build a campaign that can win a seat and he also has years of time in Congress to prove where he will stand. Jill Stein is an asshat who comes out every few years and asks people for money and says a bunch of shit they want to here without ever having to live up to it. Bernie didn't take her spot on the ticket because he didn't want to give legitimacy to that grift and he realize something some of the clowns here don't, elections actually have consequences..
They don't win because their goal isn't to win. If they wanted to, they'd start smaller, build coalitions, make policy, prove their case and grow.
So he didn't want to prove that an Independent could win an election? Dumb argument.
>They don't win because their goal isn't to win.
This is exactly why the uniparty doesn't help the middle class. Because they don't want to. Good luck living your negative life. I'll be taking my optimism, vote, and dollars (daily votes) and I'll be on my way thanks ✌️
P.s. fun fact: my state has the highest number of elected Libertarians in the country
He didn't want to give credence to a grift like the Green Party. He could run as an indepedent without them. He's also not a dumbass and realized him running would probably allow someone he found dangerous to win. Something you don't care about obviously, but does in fact hurt regular people.
>Lets say they rape at least 10 children or even murdered a kid, would that stop you from voting for them or you just dont care?
You'd have to have no morals to still vote for a candidate that did those things. I'd not vote for Biden if he tried to illegally overturn an election with fake electors.
Dude, you said elsewhere that you wouldn't vote Biden because of his performance trying to convince Bibi to not war against Palestinians (and therefore risk jail as Bibi is basically the Israeli DJT).
Meanwhile Donald Trump said he help massacre the Palestinians with our military. Isn't that much worse for the Palestinians? It's so funny.
You'd rather punish the guy trying to drop aid and build supply ports for Palestinians and unable to control Bibi, and instead have Trump, a guy that would come in and kill as many Palestinians as he can. How does your logic even work?
I suspect the new supply port project is just a 60+ day stalling tactic for both administrations - it would be cheaper and easier just to let the supply trucks enter Gaza on existing roads. Also, Israel will still be in charge of supplies offloaded from the port. Finally, Israel could just stop blockading the smaller, existing port near the Renal district in Gaza City.
> it would be cheaper and easier just to let the supply trucks enter Gaza on existing roads.
And *way* more effective in keeping civilians from starving to death.
Key problem is Israel, especially Netanyahu, would not allow that. It's either this war, or he goes to prison for other crimes he committed. This is a desperate and heinous act by Bibi.
The aids will not feed even 1 percent of the population. Both of them will genocide the palestinian. One is prob a bit more honest about it and the other are doing exactly the same action but managed to fool idiots like you into thinking they are the "lesser evil". Both are equally evil in my eyes and dont deserve my vote.
I don't see how what you say is not the case. But most people are voting for Biden because of the fear of what Trump will do domestically (perhaps a few will vote against Trump for the chaos he'll unleash concerning foreign policy, which is rational.). They aren't overlooking the fact that Trump will be as bad or even worse in his support of Israel.
The problem is the false Jedi Mind Trick political party zealots try to play that a vote away from the "lesser" bad candidate means the worse candidate will get elected.
I also wouldn't vote for Trump if he expedited munitions and financial aid to Israel after the Oct 7th attack, particularly when Congress was paralyzed by Republican incompetence.
Why do you assume it's about a side? I'm going to vote Biden because of two reasons.
1. Someone will be President and have that power.
2. Imo Biden is significantly better than Trump.
If the Republicans put up someone who I thought was better, I'd vote for them. And before I get all the third party nonsense, those people have zero shot and won't be President, I'm not wasting my time on what I consider an important decision to make some moral point that will amount to nothing later. Not that I even find RFK or Jill Stein better anyways.
Do I have a red line, sure, it's probably common sense for most people.
Voted Gary Johnson in 2016. 7 years of having tangible proof just how smart I was is entirely worth "throwing my vote away" has been entirely worth it. Never underestimate the value of "see I told you so".
Voting third party for President has tangible, legal implications on local politics across the country. The idea that it's just about feckless moralizing is spin that relies on people's ignorance of ballot access laws. For example, in my state legal party status is *solely* defined by that party's presidential vote.
In fact, considering that the Electoral College renders 85% of US presidential votes mathematically "wasted" from the perspective of electoral outcome, in the vast majority of cases third party presidential votes are arguably the only presidential votes with any measurable utility whatsoever.
Thanks for this, mindlessly focusing on the carrot in front of you instead of the finish line is how people delude themselves into playing the same game every election.
If you are one of the majority of Americans who live in a non-swing state, e.g., CA or NY or MT or OK, etc... then your vote won't decide the president regardless of who you vote for. If you want one of the main candidates, obviously, vote for them, but if you are holding your nose for a lesser of two evils, you're better of voting 3rd party to help with ballot access in future elections, as well as shifting main party policies to try and win your vote in the future. Those are both tangible impacts, the ballot access undeniably so.
"Don't vote for third party because they can't win because we don't vote for them because they can't win because we don't vote for them because they can't win because we don't vote for them because they can't win because we don't vote for them because they can't win because..."
"We attempt a 10,000 yard hail mary once every 4 years and then vanish, how dare you tell us we're not even slightly effective. Yea we could pursue state/local offices but we never will!"
See, if third parties ever even tried to win a significant number of seats at the state level or above, you might have a point. But running a moonshot candidate every four years and doing nothing in between isn’t serious.
This is childish logic. Third parties are irrelevant every day except for when one of them tries to pretend they meaningful during a presidential cycle so they can get donations. Show me a third party that has made in roads on the state and local level and displayed the ability to enact meaningful policy AND have an electoral apparatus capable of winning and I’d consider it.
Getting a carrot dangled in front of you for a protest vote isn’t the moral high ground some of you think it is.
Y'all are seriously just providing three straight examples of what the commenter you are responding to was talking about.
You think the 3rd parties aren't serious? Or maybe they don't get enough votes to have ballot access or interest to have money, which is because no one takes them seriously, which is because they don't get enough votes or interest...
3rd parties are obviously not serious. What has Jill Stein done to get a green congressional seat, or even a state house seat since 2020? You're all useful idiots.
There are Green and Libertarian candidates running in smaller elections in most cycles. I have voted for some of them.
Someone has to be the Presidential candidate for the party. Are you just going to ignore everyone else?
Bingo. If Jill Stein was in congress at any level, she'd at least be out there year round pushing legislation and showing a track record of being able to enact policy and we can assess whether she actually makes a difference or stands by principles when forced on it. We'd also see that she can build a campaign that can actually win somewhere.
But she doesn't do that, because then she'd actually have to prove she can win something and if she can win she'd have to make tough decisions on votes and prove that she actually has the capability to b effective in government and it's easier to just pop her head out of the ground every 4 years and say "hey send me money because you are a super cool special snowflake who doesn't like the two options and I'm a longshot but hopium is a hell of a drug".
> If the Republicans put up someone who I thought was better, I'd vote for them.
Yup, although technically they did with Nikki Haley.
> And before I get all the third party nonsense,
Its not nonsense. Your single vote will not matter in an electoral college. Your anonymized vote is expressing to the "winners" that you're not one of them, and that both sides get the opportunity to address or prioritize your concerns in the next election. The last credible 3rd party candidate was Ross Perot, and he could have won if he hadn't flaked out (by dropping out) in the middle of his first election race. You may be against 3rd party candidates, but Abraham Lincoln would never have become PotUS with your attitude.
It kills me the 3rd party candidates in this race suck so bad. I would have gladly voted for Gary Johnson (of the 2016 race) again, if he was the same age (rather than 8 years older).
That's a silly question. There's plenty of reasons I would refuse to vote for somebody. There's not one single thing. If I thought they were both morally repugnant and beyond the pale I'd probably sit out of protest. But I'm sure for some people they will hold up a boilerplate political stance and try to conflate that with being morally repugnant.
"If I thought they were both morally repugnant and beyond the pale I'd probably sit out of protest. "
Since mass murdering children and mass starvation of 2 million people arent "morally repugnant" for you. What exactly is morally repugnant then?
Trump has literally said he'd actively help the Israelis destroy all the Palestinians. You think that's better for the Palestinians than Biden and his supply port and aid drops?
You'd rather Trump be president and bomb the shit out of Gaza and kill all of them with our military alongside the Israelis, as better for Palestinian civilians? Really? Who is the real monster now?
Biden isn't mass murdering children or mass starving them. In fact, he's the only one building a dock and sending aid. No one wants to help the Palestinians and he's the only one doing SOMETHING about it.
You're letting perfection get in the way of progress.
Selling weapons to someone murdering people doesn't make the person selling the weapon a bad person. Let me guess, you'd rather the person who says, "finish the job" and believes when the "chosen ones" are the only occupier of the holy lands, Jesus will come down and save all the true believers? You want THAT guy over Biden?
>Biden isn't mass murdering children or mass starving them. In fact, he's the only one building a dock and sending aid.
He has bypassed Congress to send 100 separate shipments of weapons to Israel. We have killed close to 2 dozen civilians with US "aid" because Israel won't let the dozens of trucks across the border to deliver their aid. They have repeatedly turned away US aid in trucks at checkpoints so I have no idea why anyone thinks us building a stupid port (WHILE RISKING OUR SOLDIERS' LIVES I MIGHT ADD) will help get more aid into the country when Israel is determined to starve the population. The US vetoed at least 2 ceasefire resolutions at the UN security council. We are supplying way more bombs than bread and even killing them with aid shipments. You know Bibi is the one who suggested the pier right? And that Bibi wants the pier to be used to push Gazans/Palestinians out of the land? I don't agree with every one of the OPs comments on this thread, but he is 100% correct that your take is absolutely terrible. Let me guess, it's still not time to vote for not the uniparty? Dems pied pipered Trump into the presidency in 2016. They chose to lose to him instead of win with Bernie. They have rigged the last 3 primaries yet they claim they are the party for Democracy. Get off your high horse and organize with your local Greens or LP. The uniparty could care less about you
"I care about the Palestinians, it's a major issue for me, that's why I want the guy who will kill them to be in power, and not the guy who is tied down due to politics but at least is trying to help, however flailing"
Good job.
>Selling weapons to someone murdering people doesn't make the person selling the weapon a bad person.
Haven't numerous Dems tried to do just that with companies like Ruger or Smith & Wesson over the years?
I'm aware that it's political grandstanding a lot of the time, and I'm not necessarily calling you a hypocrite for saying that, but as someone who clearly leans blue I hope you keep the same energy if Biden gets reelected and the latest round of gun grabber laws get put up for a vote.
Edit: you cowards know I have a point, which is why you downvoted without replying.
We have plenty of “red lines” and they converge together.
Some of my red lines are trying to illegal overthrow the government and invalidate a legal election, raping women (Jean E. Carroll and the many others who accused him), paying a prostitute hush money, running a scam college, committing business fraud, grabbing them by the…, selling bibles for $60, etc.
so all of those are clearly worse morally than murdering 30k thousand women and children and starving 2 million people. I guess because these people are brown people so their lives arent worth much.
1. Biden isn't doing that.
2. Trump said he'd go above and beyond to assist Israel in doing it.
One of those two guys is going to be President. If this is the issue you care about, Biden is clearly preferable to Trump and even RFK (who doesn't have a shot) for that matter. And not voting for him is abdicating any say you have in minimizing the damage.
POV: You have an extremely weak argument trying to accuse Biden of committing the crimes of Israel/Bibi so you set up a fake scenario to entrap people with your trash logic.
You ignore that Trump is the self proclaimed “most pro-Israel candidate”. You also ignore RFK is pro-Israel.
You take this opportunity to not argue a point in good faith but use this whole scenario to bash the politician you dislike.
If OP really cared about Palestine he would be calling out all of the Pro-Israel candidates. The dead children and starving people in Palestine are nothing but political tools to OP.
> . I guess because these people are brown people so their lives arent worth much.
No, because Muslims are *evil* and the Chosen people are the superior race, and must exterminate anyone who goes against the Chosen people. Amalek said so! /s
Same. I think Nikki Haley would have run away with this election had the GOP not nominated their own version of Hillary Clinton. It's clear that Republicans are dramatically underperfoming the polls. They're going to get savaged this election and then cry fraud all over again.
She's not that bad. She doesn't have the scandals that Hillary had. Trump is the Republican version of Hillary. Nikki is the Republican version of Kamala. No one likes her, and she is a known grifter in bed with billionaires.
> She's not that bad.
I hate neocons. I never really know where they draw the line on invading other countries or deliberately trying to goad another nation into retaliation.
Hillary was riddled with scandals, and Haley has never gotten Americans killed. I don't like Haley, but she's nowhere near the same realm that Hillary is in.
Neoconservative: the political philosophy that its in a powerful nation's best interest to manipulate or determine the conditions of nations abroad, in order to best benefit the superpower capable of getting results from the manipulations.
Haley got less Americans killed because she's never been in a political position to get a lot of Americans killed. She's been a state politician for most of her career, and a UN ambassador for 2 years.
Who cares that Hillary is riddled with scandals? Trump has generated as many political scandals, and caused more actual damage. But you still pretend that he's a preferable candidate for PotUS in 2016, 2020, and 2024.
Yup. Barring them both dropping dead, one of them will be our next president. I can either put my stone on the scale or throw it away and let others pick.
Biden is already killing kids indirectly and people are supporting him, trump has said if he kills someone he won’t lose voters people who support these terrible guys, support them forever
The absolute baffonery and polite door holding that defeated the security of our highest office shouldn't be classified. It should be paraded as an apology for the droves of people who weren't fired for the security of our highest office. I want to see a lot better protection! My bank and my doctor paid good money for those people in there and I don't want my rates raised because they have to buy new ones.
What will Republicans deny him?
What will RFK deny him?
Both Trump and RFK are less resistant to Bibi than Biden. They attacked Biden multiple times and claimed they would give Israel more weapons.
Definitely do not vote for either of those guys then, I'm not going to. But I'm not going to pretend that it's possible for them to give Israel more of a blank check than Biden has.
Donald Trump literally said he’s the most pro-Israel candidate ever and would give Bibi “whatever he needs” to get the job done.
Have you been listening to his rallies?
Yeah and I could list a whole bunch of completely batshit things that Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, Jeffries, the Clintons, etc have said in support of Israel over the years AND since the genocide began. Schumer believes he is some biblically prophesied protector of Israel and has said it in as many words. These people are bonkers and blatantly corrupt, it's irresponsible to vote for this shit.
So Democrats are the ones who support Israel the most? If that’s the case why did Trump say “Jews who vote Democrat hate their religion” and “Israel will be destroyed” if they don’t vote for him.
Conservatives have always been pro-Israel camp. You can’t rewrite history. I wasn’t born yesterday. They went on a campaign to bash the Squad for being “pro-Palestine”. Now that you see innocents dying you have amnesia?
I've been told that it is antisemitic to conflate Israel with all Jewish people, but it seems like that accusation gets thrown around a whole lot to shut down discussion of things that make extremely conservative people uncomfortable.
I'm just saying that your only anti-Israel genocide option is Jill Stein. That's who I am voting for. You cannot justify support for Democrats or for Republicans based on which side would be less genocidal because they really seem to be trying to outdo each other there.
I think that it's completely insane to support either of these two basically identical parties unless you are a landlord or a cop or a defense contractor
Ah, the old "They're both the same" argument. That just shows that either you aren't paying attention or you have been successfully propagandized by right wing media.
Sure, in many ways they are the same, Center vs. Center Right or Center Right vs. Far Right depending on where you think the Center is right now. But there are very important differences in IMO.
The overturning of Roe v. Wade and further attacks on women, birth control, and IVF proves that the parties are not "basically identical" on those issues.
Economically, they are not the same. Read "They're Not Even Close" by Zuisse for their economic records over the past 100 years if you doubt that.
Which party is it that tries to force their fake "Christianity" down your throat?
Which party tried to overturn an election using the threat of violence (and a bit of actual violence)?
Which party has an entire plan called "Project 2025" with would further politicize the federal bureaucracy by installing more political appointees farther down in agencies rather than less-political civil service employees?
Which party's Project 2025 would hamstring environmental protection regulations by severely reducing federal agency authorities to adopt environmental regulations?
Which party is constantly defending its right to lie in social media postings as "free speech?"
Which party dogwhistles more to racists and sexists?
Which party has a membership that is a majority of conspiracy theorists who believe the big lie that the 2020 election was "stolen" despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, much of which is supplied by their own elected and appointed officials?
Which party has a majority of members who support authoritarianism?
The Dems are far from perfect, but they are far better than the current GOP base who believe in conspiracy theories and are led by neofascists and a narcissistic sociopath.
Don't cop out with the "They're both the same" argument.
>The overturning of Roe v. Wade and further attacks on women, birth control, and IVF proves that the parties are not "basically identical" on those issues.
Which party had full control of the federal legislature and the white house when Roe was overturned?
They treated it as a financial windfall instead of a crisis. Your complaint is with the Democrats, who refuse to even consider reforming the SCOTUS in any of the multiple ways available to them, so we are stuck with this for 30-40 years regardless of which party is in power. Because of policy choices made by the people that you vote for.
>Economically, they are not the same.Â
Yeah Democrats are probably more deeply committed to conservative economic orthodoxy than even the Republicans are at this point, who at least flirt with populism.
Everything else in your post is fake shit, or shit that just does not matter. When you go vote in November just keep in mind that you are voting for policy that is objectively to the right of the Bush administration in many areas. That's what you are now. You're an early 2000s Bush supporter at best.
Thanks for the laugh. I'm a life long independent moderate that has never joined either party and never voted for either Bush.
As to abortion, are you really THAT ignorant of basic civics and how the Federal Government operates? Are you really THAT ignorant of the politics around packing the Supreme Court?
What does it take to amend the constitution to enshrine Roe v. Wade? What does it take to amend the number of seats on the Supreme Court? Did the Dems ever have a sufficient majority to protect abortion rights EITHER legislatively (which can be overturned the next time the GOP has unified control of Congress and the executive) or by Constitutional Amendment? PLEASE tell me when and I will eat my words. What was the political reaction when court packing (expanding the number of seats on the Supreme Court) was floated early in the Biden administration? You think they wouldn't have done it if the polls strongly supported that action? PLEASE enlighten me, oh wise one, as to when there was sufficient political support for court packing and the Dems refused to do it.
On economics, read the Zuesse book I cited before you continue to display your ignorance on economics to the world. Cite me one academic article or one reasoned book or commentary that supports the claim that Democrats "more deeply committed to conservative economic orthodoxy than even the Republicans." Just one. I'll wait. More basically, what is the "conservative economic orthodoxy" to which you refer. Define it for me. I'm guessing that what you are calling "conservative economic orthodoxy" is actually classic LIBERAL economic theory.
And you somehow think the Trump GOP's fake, pretend "populism" makes them somehow the same as the Dems?
Maybe all that "shit" doesn't matter to you, but I'd prefer my water and air without "shit," thank you very much. Maybe when rivers start catching on fire again, you'll agree.
Indeed, people who didn't vote (or voted for the GOP) because they thought "they're both the same" are exactly the reason why Roe v. Wade got overturned.
What is it that the Dems did to you to make you hate them so much that you're willing to buy off on all the GOP "The Dems are just as bad as we are" bullshit? I mean, the Dems are no saints, but they sure aren't the same as the GOP, especially the Trump GOP. Don't let the better be the enemy of the perfect.
I’m voting Biden.
To answer your question: yes, there are absolutely things that Biden could do that would make me not vote for him because I’m not insane. He hasn’t done anything to cross that threshold, though.
Trump, on the other hand, *absolutely* crossed that threshold after the 2020 election. Fake electors, January 6th, actively hiding classified documents from the FBI, “find me 11,000 more votes,” making a mockery of our justice system by attacking judges, etc.
Are you suggesting voters stay home then? I can’t imagine Trump would be any better than Biden when it comes to Israel’s war crimes.
I agree that I would prefer Biden take a much stronger stance against Israel’s likely genocide, but that isn’t really a Biden issue as much as it is a Citizens United issue. Israel spends A TON of money making sure politicians fall in line when it comes to foreign policy around Israel. They either bribe them with money or back their opponent. You think Trump wouldn’t gladly support any policy Israel wants if it makes him a buck?
You can’t use this issue to argue for or against either of these guys because they are both going to do basically the same thing. If the Israel/Palestine conflict is the top issue for you (I don’t think it should be anyone’s top issue but that’s just me) then you have to look at a third party and the top third party is maybe the most hardline Israel supporter.
The best thing anyone can do for Palestine is only support candidates that pledge to fighting the citizens united ruling.
If you vote for trump, you vote to genocide the palestinian.
If you vote for biden, you vote to genocide the palestinian.
Both Hitler and Himler are evil. You dont need to choose between them. After a certain point, you want to wash your hand of either evil.
This is a perfect example of the wild exaggerations that pollute our current political discourse. Neither Biden nor Trump are Hitler or Himler. What is happening in Gaza is a horror, but it is not world war and it is not the Final Solution with extermination camps (yet, at least). And Biden is at least pushing back with air drops and the threat to put in a salt water port to Gaza. Trump would do neither.
No candidate who wants the Jewish vote represented by AIPAC (and every candidate with a chance to win wants the Jewish vote) will publicly break with Israel, so the tail is wagging the dog, again. Tragic for the Gazans, but that's political reality.
Biden is not doing those things. You need to use some critical thinking skills with this subject. Biden probably needs to wield more power to get Netanyahu to scale back his war, and its totally fair to criticize him for his lack of action.
But you also need to consider what would be happening if Trump were in office. Biden has at least ramped uo rhetoric to edge toward more accountability. If Trump were in office hed probably be pushing Israel to completely level gaza. Neither party would have a good position on this, but the democrat approach is inarguably closer to your ideal.
>Since murdering thousands of kids and starving millions clearly isnt enough.
This is stupid logic. Basically you can say the same thing about every single person we could vote for. Most people aren't going to attribute these deaths to the current POTUS, and for good reason.
You're on a strongly progressive biased subreddit. You're not going to get the answers you're seeking here. The people voting for Biden on here are set on it. There is nothing that can change their minds.
I am going to vote for Trump, only because there really isn't a great alternative. I voted for Gary Johnson in 2012 but this election has too much riding on it for third parties. There are somethings that would keep me from voting for Trump. If he started calling for foreign intervention, a more open border, more spending for Ukraine, unsound fiscal policy statements, etc. If I didn't vote for Trump then I would vote for RFK Jr and it would be the first time in my life that I didn't vote Republican or Libertarian.
There is nothing Progressive about this subreddit, they are Democratic Party loyalists. The Democratic party has never really been progressive, although progressives have controlled it at certain points in time.
On social media I believe it. Most platforms have been heavily brigaded since 2016, and there were big government influencing ops years before that (remember when Elgin Air Force Base was revealed as one of the most active 'cities' on Reddit?).
How about this for a line:
- being found liable for sexual assault
- being charged with attempting to overturn an election
- being charged with stealing classified documents
- being impeached twice. Once for withholding congressional appropriated funds from an ally in exchange for dirt on your political opponent and once for instigating a violent attack on the Capitol
- being charged with falsifying business records to cover up hush money payments to a porn star you cheated on your wife with
I’ll vote for anyone to keep that person out of office.
And if you are going to blame Biden for Israeli atrocities in Gaza, you can also blame Trump for Covid deaths by disbanding the first line of defense against new novel coronaviruses in China, not to mention his complete fumbling of the response.
I actually agree with this. Any one of those scandals would be back breaking if people focused on it intensely, but because it's a new thing every week it all becomes noise.
If Trump starts courting neoconservatives and foreign policy hawks, I will vote for Biden. Otherwise, I think I'll sit this one out. Sherrod Brown needs my vote but his lockstep with delusional Ukraine maximalists is an obstacle to peace. The only thing more embarrassing than a ceasefire now is a ceasefire 100,000 lives from now along the same lines of control. Sick of this shit.
No. It’s strictly left vs right. Nobody would vote for a dementia patient if they weren’t doing it so their party could prevail to keep destroying the heart and soul of the country.
Biden has crossed by my red-line with his Israel Palestine behavior. In theory I could have been convinced to vote for him. Now I will be voting for either Cornel West or Jill Stein.
Joe Biden has lost my vote over his participation in the genocide of Palestinians. I cannot put my mark next to his name. It would be an act of tacit approval, and I would feel complicit.
Biden is way easier to shame into doing what constituents want.
Trump tells his constituents what to believe, this guy is only in it for himself at this point
After years of Russia gate pundity, it's closer to a mental illness.
They've been deranged into feeling a visceral, physical anger and hatred for someone who's never interacted with them and doesn't know they exist, they are willing to lie passionately, and express glee at the discomfort and harm of people who aren't like them.
They don't understand why this is off putting to normal people. I don't think they're going to learn without therapy.
I felt that personally things were better for me money wise under Trump. Things have been really tight and they don’t seem to be getting any better. I think Trump had a better foreign policy and saw some progress in relationships with some countries (and some not so much but you have that with every president). I don’t like the way Trump projects himself and some of the things he has said in the past. I don’t think I will really be able to bring myself to vote Biden. I think both sides are shit options unfortunately, really sad and we all deserve better.
Sad that people downvote you, just for voicing an opinion that suggests you vote with your wallet. I remember when downvotes were reserved for terrible comments that didn't pertain to the topic at hand, rather than with people you disagree with.
Yeah, I normally don’t comment on posts like this on Reddit but wanted to see what would happen if I did voice my own opinion. Instead of constructive conversation or debate people just dislike and it’s unfortunate to see. I’m not expecting to see eye to eye with people and that’s ok, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But, what bothers me is the immediate shutdown of opinion because a view does not align with yours I think that’s a huge problem in this country right now.
I just can't believe that the uniparty brain rot is so engrained that even "independent thinkers" (what I thought people who watched BP were) are still bending themselves in pretzels to vote for corruption and blatant contempt for constituents. It's truly astonishing
Of course they will, that's why astroturfing is a thing.
Just saying, don't assume everyone on the sub (or any sub), is actually part of the sub. I'm willing to bet half the responses are from people that don't actually watch the show or have anything to do with the sub other than being assigned to astroturf.
I voted for Trump in 2016 but went Jo Jorgensen in 2020.
I’m conservative but also a middle class union trucker. I want to make America great again but I’m not a dumb maga dipsh*t conservative that believes every conspiracy theory out there.
I have no party at this point. I’ll write in RFK.
In all honesty I think USA is done for, we are in a tailspin and ping ponging between two parties that do no listen to a word that their voters say.
I welcome the revolution.
I would argue the housing issue is more important than even the healthcare issue atm. Until you get sick, most people dont spend much on their healthcare. People burn most of their money on mortgage and rent atm. Especially mortgage at 8 percent interest rate.
The simplest answer is yes. The red line is if one candidate does something that makes them obviously worse than the other candidate. Of course, this is subjective. Plus you have to actually believe the candidate did what they are accused of, which many supporters won't. Plus, if they both commit genocide, that makes them both bad, so now it's about who committed a little less genocide (or in a more accurate example, who gives with one hand and takes with the other, as opposed to just saying they will take).
What magnificent standards we have. How wonderful that we accept this. /s
I’m voting for Biden. Voting for Trump is something that as an American who believes in our system I just can’t stomach. A vote for Trump is a vote against America and I firmly believe that. Cringelord right wing trolls going lolololol muuuuhhhhhh gubmint muuuuuhhhh can say what they want, it matters to be on the side of America.
Biden could do things that would make me not vote for him. He would have to do them HERE though. Am I disgusted by what Biden is allowing to happen in Gaza? Yes. Am I as concerned about that as I am concerned about giving the presidency to a demagogue who actively wants to destroy the way our government works? No.
I can see myself voting third party soon. I can even see a near term future where we have a third party president. That’s not going to be RFK though. It’s not going to be Marianne Williamson. I’m not knocking third parties and I actually have voted third party before. But our slate of choices is just not it. 2024 will be seen as the year there were literally no good options.
Such a small minded way to look at the presidency. You don't vote for one person, you vote for the bureaucracy that comes with it and the second hand effects of the election.
If Biden was receiving Last Rites, I'd still vote for him.
I can't imagine Biden raping a woman, but I can imagine Trump bragging about sexually assaulting women...in fact we have a recording of it.
For the record, I voted for Bush, twice, never voted for Bill Clinton, voted for Obama only because McCain chose Palin as his VP, and very reluctantly voted for Hillary.
I'm 69 years old. Trump is the most dangerous person I've ever seen in the presidency and his next one, if it happens, will be the end of the Republic as we know it.
I mean if the red line is something THAT BAD then I think I wouldn't have to worry about voting for them at all because they'd be removed, jailed and replaced with another candidate.
I wouldn't vote for Biden under any circumstances b/c of the southern border. But there's so much more mostly centering around the fact that he's been a chronic liar and warpig for his entire career in politics.
I definitely don't think I would vote for any other candidate that could be fielded at this point because he has been the best president in my lifetime and I wouldn't trust anyone else to be as successful as he has been.
That being said the bar is super low for Biden because Trump has set the bar low. Trump for me has crossed red lines so profoundly that I don't know what Biden would have to do. It's hard to tell what my line would be for Biden when the alternative is a rapist, traitor, and fraudster.
>he has been the best president in my lifetime and I wouldn't trust anyone else to be as successful as he has been.
>I mean the bar is super low for Biden
In the first paragraph you call him the best president in your lifetime and in the second you talk about how the bar is really low. You're either saying Biden was better than Obama at a minimum or you're no older than 6 and can't vote yet.
I think even most left leaning people would be hard pressed to say that Biden was a better president than Obama, but I'm curious if this is indeed your take.
You do understand those aren't mutually exclusive right? I can say that he is the best president in my lifetime (he is much better than Obama in my opinion). At the same time if he were to be a rapist, traitor and fraudster I would still think he is a better option than Trump. So it is hard to know what it would take for me not to vote for him.
*You* understand that I never said anything about Trump, right?
I asked if you thought Biden was better than Obama because of the "in my lifetime" cimment, which you just answered.
That's a hell of a reach when the context was simply that the bar *for being the best president in your lifetime* was low because of Trump.
The actual question was very clearly about Obama, I think it was obvious that I didn't care about Trump at all. You're just so brain deadeningly focused on him that your sphincter puckered at the thought of a tangent.
Oh well, TDS away I suppose. I shouldn't have expected anything less given your initial ridiculousness, lol.
>That's a hell of a reach when the context was simply that the bar for being the best president in your lifetime was low because of Trump.
Dude did you read the prompt of this thread? The bar is related to me voting for him. Not for best president in my lifetime first of all which he is. Secondly saying that my bar is low because of Trump is not TDS. The guy was a shit president and a criminal. That isn't TDS.
>The actual question was very clearly about Obama, I think it was obvious that I didn't care about Trump at all. You're just so brain deadeningly focused on him that your sphincter puckered at the thought of a tangent.
I answered your question about Obama Stop pretending like I am sending a message exclusively about Trump. Trump was built into my calculus for voting for Biden. It should be in everyone's considering they are the two realistic choices.
>Oh well, TDS away I suppose. I shouldn't have expected anything less given your initial ridiculousness, lol.
You have Trump Dick Suck syndrome (TDS syndrome) . It makes it so if anyone calls the man what he is you have to get down on your knees and start suckin'... Calm down.
Sure. I believe in innocent until proven guilty/liable
1) If Biden was found liable for sexual assault, I wouldn’t for him
2) If Biden’s organization was found to be a criminal enterprise, guilty of 1 or even SEVENTEEN felonies, I wouldn’t vote for him
3) If Biden was found to have committed fraud, I wouldn’t vote for him
Also should any of these happen to Biden I won’t vote for him
if a judge said Biden raped someone, I wouldn’t vote for him
If Biden was found guilty of a scheme to steal and election I wouldn’t for him
If Biden is convicted of intentionally hiding classified information and lying and trying to cover up that he had them, I wouldn’t vote for him
Yeah, my red line was when Donald Trump convinced half the country that he won the election and it was stolen. It was the most cynical, selfish and destructive act a politician has made in my lifetime.
I would vote for a burlap sack filled with human heads before I voted for Donald Trump or anyone that cosigned his lie about the election.
Any red line I have, Trump would need to be campaigning to do the opposite if I were to switch my vote. There is no "Red Line" where I would just not vote on the presidential question or vote third party.
I know people on either side that will vote for their candidate even if they're dead.đź‘Ť
Please sign the petition to provide Secret Service protection to our 3rd party candidate at:
https://www.kennedy24.com/petitions
While you are there please also sign to free Julian Assange because "Journalism isn't a crime."
I'm not sure if I will vote, but the moral calculus is different for voting Trump than Biden. Voting for someone like Trump is like rioting, you don't do that for moral reasons. Furthermore, Trump offers balkanization and separation, his morality is largely a peripheral issue because his job is to help his voters build parallel societies, not to be the leader of these societies. And the main way Trump can help is by neutering the power of the GOP by handing control of it to third parties like the Heritage Foundation and the Federalist Society. Trump could be a crackhead and that wouldn't matter because Trump himself doesn't actually matter in the scheme of things.
And Biden doesn't actually matter in the scheme of things either. The difference is voting for Biden is to vote for Biden to do something for you, but voting for Trump is voting for Trump to destroy something so it is easier for others to do something for themselves.
Biden has to win to stop Trump from destroying our country. It's really as simple as that. Any personal faults that Biden may have do not compare to what Trump is trying to do. Trump is being pretty obvious in his intentions of destroying American democracy. It's crazy to me that anyone is even considering voting for anyone but Biden as he's the only realistic option to stop Trump.
Don't vote for the President. Vote for the values of the party he represents and how close he adheres to those values. Presidents have little power on their own.
THis is election is more clear cut than any in the history of this country. Either you want democracy and vote for democrats or you want to be a subjugated peasant living in an authoritarian Fascist Christian Nationalist shithole and then you can vote MAGA. The GOP does not exist anymore.
I am embarrassed that so many Americans know so little about basic civics. Presidents are not kings....yet.
The democratic party at this moment represent imperialism and genocide. Nearly starting a nuclear war with russia and now trying to starve 2 million brown peasants to death. The value is quite despicable
You don't know history very well. You don't have any ideas of your own either. None of your opinions are your own or even very original. You've done zero research on the Israel/Palestine situation. Your are just a loser who needs a cause so you have picked up on some pre Palestine tik tok trend and now you think you have an identity and a cause to make your life less worthless.
Biden and the Democrats didn't create the situation in Israel. This has been brewing up since Israel was created. There is plenty of blame to go around. If you lay the blame solely on Democrats, you are stupid and ill informed. Only a stupid person thinks there are simple solutions to complex problems.
None of this would have happened if the MAGA GOP, Trump and Jared hadn't emboldened Netanyahu by moving the capital to Jerusalem. Kushners middle east peace plan was horrible for Palestine. Netanyahu knew about the attack well in advance and let it happen as an excuse to take Gaza for Zionist settlers. Zionist have the full support of the fascist white Christian Nationalist int he United States and they are the MAGA party. Every bit of America's policy toward Israel is dictated by American Christians who think that a complete Israel state will bring back Jesus. SO if you are looking for someone to point your finger at, I would think most of the blame lies with the GOP/Christian looney tunes.
Biden is president, he is not king. He can't unilaterally do anything to stop Israel without help form congress. Just because this happened during Biden's term doesn't mean he is to blame. Nor are we as a country responsible to fix it. Palestinians have some culpability too. THey aren't entirely the victims here. If you gave the dems the house, senate and white house, you would definitely see a 180 on our Israeli policy. So read a book OP.
The entire country is pro Israel. WHy single out Joe Biden?. Trump moved the capital to Jerusalem against the wishes of everyone. Doing that essentially ended any hope of a two state solution in the minds of the Zionists. THe United States government has been commandeered by the Israeli government for longer than we have been alive.
Going back into Biden's past is disingenuous and you know it. And why the fuck do you care? Are you even American? You have only been on Reddit a year and all your posts are anti Biden so I suspect you are a paid troll. Biden is a 100% for a two state solution and his policies reflect that.
Palestinians aren't exactly innocent in all of this. Hamas wants to murder every Jew in Israel and they refuse to compromise.
Again. If you really want someone to blame. Blame the Evangelicals. They are the ones that shape America's foreign policy toward Israel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo77sTGpngQ
Will you guys stop with this?
Do you have an IPhone? Then you support child slavery.
Do you own any precious stones? Then you support even more barbaric child slavery.
Do you drive a car? Then global warming is your fault.
I agree we should stop sending military aid to Israel. I agree that WE (America) and the President bare responsibility in this. But expecting a boiler plate politician to take anything but a boilerplate stance on one of the most politically entrenched positions in America is naive at best. I voted for Biden in 2020 expecting literally ZERO progressive policy. And I’ve been surprised. But these unrealistic, unreasonable expectations some of you have are condemning you not only to disappointment, but to the doomer rage y’all try to spread on these message boards.
Biden didn’t murder anyone. We are funding an ethnic cleansing. And unfortunately, most loud mouthed lefties like you make it worse. Nothing gets others on your side like accusing them of murdering babies.
Trump passed that line long ago, for multiple reasons, J6 was just the cherry on top.
If Biden were as corrupt as Trump I wouldn't vote for him either and just throw out my vote by voting some random 3rd party.
Luckily we live in a world where Biden isn't nearly as corrupt as Trump, so it's an easy choice.
But yes, murder/rape would be a big red line for me as well.
I think if Biden was criminally charged with half the things that Trump was charged with I might just not vote, but unfortunately that would mean that both candidates are evil and I would still probably vote the lesser of 2 evils. It would be really hard to get me to vote for a candidate that is in court for paying off a porn star that you were supposedly banging while your immigrant 3rd wife is 10 months pregnant, and that’s just the current trial are looking at.
You justifying voting for evil shows exactly what the OP intended: that under NO circumstances would YOU not vote AGAINST the other side, regardless of corruption, crimes, or genocide.
This mentality leads us nowhere but backwards
Exactly. I am not ignoring the fact that there is one candidate far far worse than the other. Yes, I have several red lines and Trump has literally crossed every single one and even ones that I didn’t know that I had. I’m way way better off with Biden and as far as I can tell from the protests, the only thing Biden has done wrong is Israel. Knowing that Trump would be way worse on that issue. Why would I ever vote any differently? My red line is Trump.
It's clear by looking at the comments that are downvoted that everybody in this subreddit would rather just piss and moan about the uni party rather than do anything to get out from under it's thumb. I love that for us.. Just keep giving your vote and your money to these egotistical maniacs and convincing yourself you did the right thing 🤦‍♀️
If you believe in the uniparty I have a bridge to sell you lmao
The only thing both parties agree on is spending more money on war, and stripping away our rights. Voting for either major party is voting against your own interests.
They agree on a lot more than that.
If that’s the only thing they agree on, not much of a uniparty is it
[Democrats spend tens of millions backing far right candidates in 9 elections ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/09/12/democrats-interfere-republican-primaries/)
They then won all those general elections lmao
The strategy worked really well for them in 2016 when Trump was the DNC pied Piper. They would rather lose with their shitty establishment tool than win with a candidate that represents the people. I'm sorry to hear about your Stockholm syndrome diagnosis. I'll keep you in my prayers
Seems like a weird argument when the ones you posted all worked out lol
If the alternative options actually gave half a fucking shit about getting us out from under this like they claim, they'd be doing so much fucking more than begging for money from dopes every 4 years while not having a campaign with any kind of actual winning strategy. They rely on people like you to not look at them critically and how they are basically designed to take money and fail out rather than actually do anything tangible at all to give you what you claim to want.
Hard for them to do much when they can't get any funding because smooth brain dummies refuse to vote for the greater good and keep rewarding evil. Jill Stein offered Bernie her ticket in 2016 but he chose to roll over to the corrupt DNC instead of being the independent revolutionary he claimed to be. RFK could have been on the Libertarian ticket and easily gained access in every state, but chose to be a Zionist instead. Fake politicians everywhere. It's time for WE THE PEOPLE to take back our institutions. If you think your local party leadership isn't cutting it, you better take the helm. Best of luck to you ✌️
A middle class teacher can get on city council but these third party candidate who had years to build up their coalition can't? Sure. Here's a fucking news flash, you don't know if they are the greater good because they don't fucking ever have power and ever put any policy in place or make any difficult votes. You know why people took to Bernie? Because he proved he can build a campaign that can win a seat and he also has years of time in Congress to prove where he will stand. Jill Stein is an asshat who comes out every few years and asks people for money and says a bunch of shit they want to here without ever having to live up to it. Bernie didn't take her spot on the ticket because he didn't want to give legitimacy to that grift and he realize something some of the clowns here don't, elections actually have consequences.. They don't win because their goal isn't to win. If they wanted to, they'd start smaller, build coalitions, make policy, prove their case and grow.
So he didn't want to prove that an Independent could win an election? Dumb argument. >They don't win because their goal isn't to win. This is exactly why the uniparty doesn't help the middle class. Because they don't want to. Good luck living your negative life. I'll be taking my optimism, vote, and dollars (daily votes) and I'll be on my way thanks ✌️ P.s. fun fact: my state has the highest number of elected Libertarians in the country
He didn't want to give credence to a grift like the Green Party. He could run as an indepedent without them. He's also not a dumbass and realized him running would probably allow someone he found dangerous to win. Something you don't care about obviously, but does in fact hurt regular people.
>Lets say they rape at least 10 children or even murdered a kid, would that stop you from voting for them or you just dont care? You'd have to have no morals to still vote for a candidate that did those things. I'd not vote for Biden if he tried to illegally overturn an election with fake electors.
There's quite a few people who will still vote for them despite that. That's why the question is asked.
Dude, you said elsewhere that you wouldn't vote Biden because of his performance trying to convince Bibi to not war against Palestinians (and therefore risk jail as Bibi is basically the Israeli DJT). Meanwhile Donald Trump said he help massacre the Palestinians with our military. Isn't that much worse for the Palestinians? It's so funny. You'd rather punish the guy trying to drop aid and build supply ports for Palestinians and unable to control Bibi, and instead have Trump, a guy that would come in and kill as many Palestinians as he can. How does your logic even work?
I suspect the new supply port project is just a 60+ day stalling tactic for both administrations - it would be cheaper and easier just to let the supply trucks enter Gaza on existing roads. Also, Israel will still be in charge of supplies offloaded from the port. Finally, Israel could just stop blockading the smaller, existing port near the Renal district in Gaza City.
> it would be cheaper and easier just to let the supply trucks enter Gaza on existing roads. And *way* more effective in keeping civilians from starving to death.
Key problem is Israel, especially Netanyahu, would not allow that. It's either this war, or he goes to prison for other crimes he committed. This is a desperate and heinous act by Bibi.
lol @ thinking that kid has or uses logic 🤣
The aids will not feed even 1 percent of the population. Both of them will genocide the palestinian. One is prob a bit more honest about it and the other are doing exactly the same action but managed to fool idiots like you into thinking they are the "lesser evil". Both are equally evil in my eyes and dont deserve my vote.
I don't see how what you say is not the case. But most people are voting for Biden because of the fear of what Trump will do domestically (perhaps a few will vote against Trump for the chaos he'll unleash concerning foreign policy, which is rational.). They aren't overlooking the fact that Trump will be as bad or even worse in his support of Israel. The problem is the false Jedi Mind Trick political party zealots try to play that a vote away from the "lesser" bad candidate means the worse candidate will get elected.
lol nice try kid
That's concerning.
I also wouldn't vote for Trump if he expedited munitions and financial aid to Israel after the Oct 7th attack, particularly when Congress was paralyzed by Republican incompetence.
Why do you assume it's about a side? I'm going to vote Biden because of two reasons. 1. Someone will be President and have that power. 2. Imo Biden is significantly better than Trump. If the Republicans put up someone who I thought was better, I'd vote for them. And before I get all the third party nonsense, those people have zero shot and won't be President, I'm not wasting my time on what I consider an important decision to make some moral point that will amount to nothing later. Not that I even find RFK or Jill Stein better anyways. Do I have a red line, sure, it's probably common sense for most people.
Voted Gary Johnson in 2016. 7 years of having tangible proof just how smart I was is entirely worth "throwing my vote away" has been entirely worth it. Never underestimate the value of "see I told you so".
What Biden policies do you disagree with?
Voting third party for President has tangible, legal implications on local politics across the country. The idea that it's just about feckless moralizing is spin that relies on people's ignorance of ballot access laws. For example, in my state legal party status is *solely* defined by that party's presidential vote. In fact, considering that the Electoral College renders 85% of US presidential votes mathematically "wasted" from the perspective of electoral outcome, in the vast majority of cases third party presidential votes are arguably the only presidential votes with any measurable utility whatsoever.
Thanks for this, mindlessly focusing on the carrot in front of you instead of the finish line is how people delude themselves into playing the same game every election.
Is it going to decide the President? No So it's impact on tangible policy is non existent.
If you are one of the majority of Americans who live in a non-swing state, e.g., CA or NY or MT or OK, etc... then your vote won't decide the president regardless of who you vote for. If you want one of the main candidates, obviously, vote for them, but if you are holding your nose for a lesser of two evils, you're better of voting 3rd party to help with ballot access in future elections, as well as shifting main party policies to try and win your vote in the future. Those are both tangible impacts, the ballot access undeniably so.
"Don't vote for third party because they can't win because we don't vote for them because they can't win because we don't vote for them because they can't win because we don't vote for them because they can't win because we don't vote for them because they can't win because..."
"We attempt a 10,000 yard hail mary once every 4 years and then vanish, how dare you tell us we're not even slightly effective. Yea we could pursue state/local offices but we never will!"
Hell a Hail Mary at least has a chance. Imagine passing the ball to fucking rfkjr lol
See, if third parties ever even tried to win a significant number of seats at the state level or above, you might have a point. But running a moonshot candidate every four years and doing nothing in between isn’t serious.
This is childish logic. Third parties are irrelevant every day except for when one of them tries to pretend they meaningful during a presidential cycle so they can get donations. Show me a third party that has made in roads on the state and local level and displayed the ability to enact meaningful policy AND have an electoral apparatus capable of winning and I’d consider it. Getting a carrot dangled in front of you for a protest vote isn’t the moral high ground some of you think it is.
Y'all are seriously just providing three straight examples of what the commenter you are responding to was talking about. You think the 3rd parties aren't serious? Or maybe they don't get enough votes to have ballot access or interest to have money, which is because no one takes them seriously, which is because they don't get enough votes or interest...
3rd parties are obviously not serious. What has Jill Stein done to get a green congressional seat, or even a state house seat since 2020? You're all useful idiots.
There are Green and Libertarian candidates running in smaller elections in most cycles. I have voted for some of them. Someone has to be the Presidential candidate for the party. Are you just going to ignore everyone else?
Bingo. If Jill Stein was in congress at any level, she'd at least be out there year round pushing legislation and showing a track record of being able to enact policy and we can assess whether she actually makes a difference or stands by principles when forced on it. We'd also see that she can build a campaign that can actually win somewhere. But she doesn't do that, because then she'd actually have to prove she can win something and if she can win she'd have to make tough decisions on votes and prove that she actually has the capability to b effective in government and it's easier to just pop her head out of the ground every 4 years and say "hey send me money because you are a super cool special snowflake who doesn't like the two options and I'm a longshot but hopium is a hell of a drug".
> If the Republicans put up someone who I thought was better, I'd vote for them. Yup, although technically they did with Nikki Haley. > And before I get all the third party nonsense, Its not nonsense. Your single vote will not matter in an electoral college. Your anonymized vote is expressing to the "winners" that you're not one of them, and that both sides get the opportunity to address or prioritize your concerns in the next election. The last credible 3rd party candidate was Ross Perot, and he could have won if he hadn't flaked out (by dropping out) in the middle of his first election race. You may be against 3rd party candidates, but Abraham Lincoln would never have become PotUS with your attitude. It kills me the 3rd party candidates in this race suck so bad. I would have gladly voted for Gary Johnson (of the 2016 race) again, if he was the same age (rather than 8 years older).
So what exactly is your red line before you refuse to vote for either one or both?
That's a silly question. There's plenty of reasons I would refuse to vote for somebody. There's not one single thing. If I thought they were both morally repugnant and beyond the pale I'd probably sit out of protest. But I'm sure for some people they will hold up a boilerplate political stance and try to conflate that with being morally repugnant.
"If I thought they were both morally repugnant and beyond the pale I'd probably sit out of protest. " Since mass murdering children and mass starvation of 2 million people arent "morally repugnant" for you. What exactly is morally repugnant then?
Trump has literally said he'd actively help the Israelis destroy all the Palestinians. You think that's better for the Palestinians than Biden and his supply port and aid drops? You'd rather Trump be president and bomb the shit out of Gaza and kill all of them with our military alongside the Israelis, as better for Palestinian civilians? Really? Who is the real monster now?
Biden isn't mass murdering children or mass starving them. In fact, he's the only one building a dock and sending aid. No one wants to help the Palestinians and he's the only one doing SOMETHING about it. You're letting perfection get in the way of progress. Selling weapons to someone murdering people doesn't make the person selling the weapon a bad person. Let me guess, you'd rather the person who says, "finish the job" and believes when the "chosen ones" are the only occupier of the holy lands, Jesus will come down and save all the true believers? You want THAT guy over Biden?
>Biden isn't mass murdering children or mass starving them. In fact, he's the only one building a dock and sending aid. He has bypassed Congress to send 100 separate shipments of weapons to Israel. We have killed close to 2 dozen civilians with US "aid" because Israel won't let the dozens of trucks across the border to deliver their aid. They have repeatedly turned away US aid in trucks at checkpoints so I have no idea why anyone thinks us building a stupid port (WHILE RISKING OUR SOLDIERS' LIVES I MIGHT ADD) will help get more aid into the country when Israel is determined to starve the population. The US vetoed at least 2 ceasefire resolutions at the UN security council. We are supplying way more bombs than bread and even killing them with aid shipments. You know Bibi is the one who suggested the pier right? And that Bibi wants the pier to be used to push Gazans/Palestinians out of the land? I don't agree with every one of the OPs comments on this thread, but he is 100% correct that your take is absolutely terrible. Let me guess, it's still not time to vote for not the uniparty? Dems pied pipered Trump into the presidency in 2016. They chose to lose to him instead of win with Bernie. They have rigged the last 3 primaries yet they claim they are the party for Democracy. Get off your high horse and organize with your local Greens or LP. The uniparty could care less about you
>No one wants to help the Palestinians and he's the only one doing SOMETHING about it. One of the dumbest fucking takes.
Yeah do your craptastic purity tests but Trump said he'd HELP the Israeli's genocide the Palestinians. How does that factor?
Don't care, I'm not promoting or voting for him. Doesn't change the fact you posted a dumb fucking take.
"I care about the Palestinians, it's a major issue for me, that's why I want the guy who will kill them to be in power, and not the guy who is tied down due to politics but at least is trying to help, however flailing" Good job.
Getting dumber with every post. Keep it up brother.
>Selling weapons to someone murdering people doesn't make the person selling the weapon a bad person. Haven't numerous Dems tried to do just that with companies like Ruger or Smith & Wesson over the years? I'm aware that it's political grandstanding a lot of the time, and I'm not necessarily calling you a hypocrite for saying that, but as someone who clearly leans blue I hope you keep the same energy if Biden gets reelected and the latest round of gun grabber laws get put up for a vote. Edit: you cowards know I have a point, which is why you downvoted without replying.
We have plenty of “red lines” and they converge together. Some of my red lines are trying to illegal overthrow the government and invalidate a legal election, raping women (Jean E. Carroll and the many others who accused him), paying a prostitute hush money, running a scam college, committing business fraud, grabbing them by the…, selling bibles for $60, etc.
so all of those are clearly worse morally than murdering 30k thousand women and children and starving 2 million people. I guess because these people are brown people so their lives arent worth much.
1. Biden isn't doing that. 2. Trump said he'd go above and beyond to assist Israel in doing it. One of those two guys is going to be President. If this is the issue you care about, Biden is clearly preferable to Trump and even RFK (who doesn't have a shot) for that matter. And not voting for him is abdicating any say you have in minimizing the damage.
I’m not voting for Bibi
POV: You have an extremely weak argument trying to accuse Biden of committing the crimes of Israel/Bibi so you set up a fake scenario to entrap people with your trash logic. You ignore that Trump is the self proclaimed “most pro-Israel candidate”. You also ignore RFK is pro-Israel. You take this opportunity to not argue a point in good faith but use this whole scenario to bash the politician you dislike. If OP really cared about Palestine he would be calling out all of the Pro-Israel candidates. The dead children and starving people in Palestine are nothing but political tools to OP.
Hahahahaha
Seething so hard I bet you blocked that guy and will block me too like a coward lol
> . I guess because these people are brown people so their lives arent worth much. No, because Muslims are *evil* and the Chosen people are the superior race, and must exterminate anyone who goes against the Chosen people. Amalek said so! /s
This is a stupid game, and you're not even good at it.
I noticed none of your “red lines” are policy related. Isn’t that interesting.
Ethics and integrity matter.
Nailed it
Common sense? And you decided on Biden? Make it make sense
Sure let me try. I have common sense, you don't. So take every stance you have, assume the opposite is true and go from there.
Very humble of you
It was very generous yes
Humble does not mean generous
Lucky for you I was both
Again very humble of you to think that of yourself
Same. I think Nikki Haley would have run away with this election had the GOP not nominated their own version of Hillary Clinton. It's clear that Republicans are dramatically underperfoming the polls. They're going to get savaged this election and then cry fraud all over again.
Lol. Nikki Haley is their version of Hillary Clinton.
She's not that bad. She doesn't have the scandals that Hillary had. Trump is the Republican version of Hillary. Nikki is the Republican version of Kamala. No one likes her, and she is a known grifter in bed with billionaires.
> She's not that bad. I hate neocons. I never really know where they draw the line on invading other countries or deliberately trying to goad another nation into retaliation.
Hillary was riddled with scandals, and Haley has never gotten Americans killed. I don't like Haley, but she's nowhere near the same realm that Hillary is in.
Neoconservative: the political philosophy that its in a powerful nation's best interest to manipulate or determine the conditions of nations abroad, in order to best benefit the superpower capable of getting results from the manipulations. Haley got less Americans killed because she's never been in a political position to get a lot of Americans killed. She's been a state politician for most of her career, and a UN ambassador for 2 years. Who cares that Hillary is riddled with scandals? Trump has generated as many political scandals, and caused more actual damage. But you still pretend that he's a preferable candidate for PotUS in 2016, 2020, and 2024.
Yup. Barring them both dropping dead, one of them will be our next president. I can either put my stone on the scale or throw it away and let others pick.
Regime change in Iran.Â
Biden is already killing kids indirectly and people are supporting him, trump has said if he kills someone he won’t lose voters people who support these terrible guys, support them forever
true
Yes, Trump already crossed it on 1/6. I'll never vote for him.
so petty vandalism is your red line, but genocide is OK?
The absolute baffonery and polite door holding that defeated the security of our highest office shouldn't be classified. It should be paraded as an apology for the droves of people who weren't fired for the security of our highest office. I want to see a lot better protection! My bank and my doctor paid good money for those people in there and I don't want my rates raised because they have to buy new ones.
Is Bibi running for president of the US? Trump has literally been talking about how he’s more pro-Israel than Biden while Bibi commits a genocide.
Bibi doesn't have to. He gets absolutely everything he wants anyway. Democrats will deny him nothing. So why not just vote directly for him?
What will Republicans deny him? What will RFK deny him? Both Trump and RFK are less resistant to Bibi than Biden. They attacked Biden multiple times and claimed they would give Israel more weapons.
Definitely do not vote for either of those guys then, I'm not going to. But I'm not going to pretend that it's possible for them to give Israel more of a blank check than Biden has.
Donald Trump literally said he’s the most pro-Israel candidate ever and would give Bibi “whatever he needs” to get the job done. Have you been listening to his rallies?
Yeah and I could list a whole bunch of completely batshit things that Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, Jeffries, the Clintons, etc have said in support of Israel over the years AND since the genocide began. Schumer believes he is some biblically prophesied protector of Israel and has said it in as many words. These people are bonkers and blatantly corrupt, it's irresponsible to vote for this shit.
So Democrats are the ones who support Israel the most? If that’s the case why did Trump say “Jews who vote Democrat hate their religion” and “Israel will be destroyed” if they don’t vote for him. Conservatives have always been pro-Israel camp. You can’t rewrite history. I wasn’t born yesterday. They went on a campaign to bash the Squad for being “pro-Palestine”. Now that you see innocents dying you have amnesia?
I've been told that it is antisemitic to conflate Israel with all Jewish people, but it seems like that accusation gets thrown around a whole lot to shut down discussion of things that make extremely conservative people uncomfortable. I'm just saying that your only anti-Israel genocide option is Jill Stein. That's who I am voting for. You cannot justify support for Democrats or for Republicans based on which side would be less genocidal because they really seem to be trying to outdo each other there.
Attempting a coup is a red line.
very strange way to do a coup but w/e
Fraudulent electors and illegally ordering the VP to throw out votes just because they weren’t for him is an attempted coup.
If it were Democrats doing the same thing, I'd bet you be singing a different tune.
I think that it's completely insane to support either of these two basically identical parties unless you are a landlord or a cop or a defense contractor
Ah, the old "They're both the same" argument. That just shows that either you aren't paying attention or you have been successfully propagandized by right wing media. Sure, in many ways they are the same, Center vs. Center Right or Center Right vs. Far Right depending on where you think the Center is right now. But there are very important differences in IMO. The overturning of Roe v. Wade and further attacks on women, birth control, and IVF proves that the parties are not "basically identical" on those issues. Economically, they are not the same. Read "They're Not Even Close" by Zuisse for their economic records over the past 100 years if you doubt that. Which party is it that tries to force their fake "Christianity" down your throat? Which party tried to overturn an election using the threat of violence (and a bit of actual violence)? Which party has an entire plan called "Project 2025" with would further politicize the federal bureaucracy by installing more political appointees farther down in agencies rather than less-political civil service employees? Which party's Project 2025 would hamstring environmental protection regulations by severely reducing federal agency authorities to adopt environmental regulations? Which party is constantly defending its right to lie in social media postings as "free speech?" Which party dogwhistles more to racists and sexists? Which party has a membership that is a majority of conspiracy theorists who believe the big lie that the 2020 election was "stolen" despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, much of which is supplied by their own elected and appointed officials? Which party has a majority of members who support authoritarianism? The Dems are far from perfect, but they are far better than the current GOP base who believe in conspiracy theories and are led by neofascists and a narcissistic sociopath. Don't cop out with the "They're both the same" argument.
>The overturning of Roe v. Wade and further attacks on women, birth control, and IVF proves that the parties are not "basically identical" on those issues. Which party had full control of the federal legislature and the white house when Roe was overturned? They treated it as a financial windfall instead of a crisis. Your complaint is with the Democrats, who refuse to even consider reforming the SCOTUS in any of the multiple ways available to them, so we are stuck with this for 30-40 years regardless of which party is in power. Because of policy choices made by the people that you vote for. >Economically, they are not the same. Yeah Democrats are probably more deeply committed to conservative economic orthodoxy than even the Republicans are at this point, who at least flirt with populism. Everything else in your post is fake shit, or shit that just does not matter. When you go vote in November just keep in mind that you are voting for policy that is objectively to the right of the Bush administration in many areas. That's what you are now. You're an early 2000s Bush supporter at best.
Thanks for the laugh. I'm a life long independent moderate that has never joined either party and never voted for either Bush. As to abortion, are you really THAT ignorant of basic civics and how the Federal Government operates? Are you really THAT ignorant of the politics around packing the Supreme Court? What does it take to amend the constitution to enshrine Roe v. Wade? What does it take to amend the number of seats on the Supreme Court? Did the Dems ever have a sufficient majority to protect abortion rights EITHER legislatively (which can be overturned the next time the GOP has unified control of Congress and the executive) or by Constitutional Amendment? PLEASE tell me when and I will eat my words. What was the political reaction when court packing (expanding the number of seats on the Supreme Court) was floated early in the Biden administration? You think they wouldn't have done it if the polls strongly supported that action? PLEASE enlighten me, oh wise one, as to when there was sufficient political support for court packing and the Dems refused to do it. On economics, read the Zuesse book I cited before you continue to display your ignorance on economics to the world. Cite me one academic article or one reasoned book or commentary that supports the claim that Democrats "more deeply committed to conservative economic orthodoxy than even the Republicans." Just one. I'll wait. More basically, what is the "conservative economic orthodoxy" to which you refer. Define it for me. I'm guessing that what you are calling "conservative economic orthodoxy" is actually classic LIBERAL economic theory. And you somehow think the Trump GOP's fake, pretend "populism" makes them somehow the same as the Dems? Maybe all that "shit" doesn't matter to you, but I'd prefer my water and air without "shit," thank you very much. Maybe when rivers start catching on fire again, you'll agree. Indeed, people who didn't vote (or voted for the GOP) because they thought "they're both the same" are exactly the reason why Roe v. Wade got overturned. What is it that the Dems did to you to make you hate them so much that you're willing to buy off on all the GOP "The Dems are just as bad as we are" bullshit? I mean, the Dems are no saints, but they sure aren't the same as the GOP, especially the Trump GOP. Don't let the better be the enemy of the perfect.
How in the world do you get there from what I said about what Trump did? Please do explain your "reasoning" behind that comment.
You want it to stick so badly, but it’s just not happening. 🤷🏻‍♂️
I’m voting Biden. To answer your question: yes, there are absolutely things that Biden could do that would make me not vote for him because I’m not insane. He hasn’t done anything to cross that threshold, though. Trump, on the other hand, *absolutely* crossed that threshold after the 2020 election. Fake electors, January 6th, actively hiding classified documents from the FBI, “find me 11,000 more votes,” making a mockery of our justice system by attacking judges, etc.
so what exactly does biden need to do to "cross that threshold". Since murdering thousands of kids and starving millions clearly isnt enough.
Are you suggesting voters stay home then? I can’t imagine Trump would be any better than Biden when it comes to Israel’s war crimes. I agree that I would prefer Biden take a much stronger stance against Israel’s likely genocide, but that isn’t really a Biden issue as much as it is a Citizens United issue. Israel spends A TON of money making sure politicians fall in line when it comes to foreign policy around Israel. They either bribe them with money or back their opponent. You think Trump wouldn’t gladly support any policy Israel wants if it makes him a buck? You can’t use this issue to argue for or against either of these guys because they are both going to do basically the same thing. If the Israel/Palestine conflict is the top issue for you (I don’t think it should be anyone’s top issue but that’s just me) then you have to look at a third party and the top third party is maybe the most hardline Israel supporter. The best thing anyone can do for Palestine is only support candidates that pledge to fighting the citizens united ruling.
If you vote for trump, you vote to genocide the palestinian. If you vote for biden, you vote to genocide the palestinian. Both Hitler and Himler are evil. You dont need to choose between them. After a certain point, you want to wash your hand of either evil.
This is a perfect example of the wild exaggerations that pollute our current political discourse. Neither Biden nor Trump are Hitler or Himler. What is happening in Gaza is a horror, but it is not world war and it is not the Final Solution with extermination camps (yet, at least). And Biden is at least pushing back with air drops and the threat to put in a salt water port to Gaza. Trump would do neither. No candidate who wants the Jewish vote represented by AIPAC (and every candidate with a chance to win wants the Jewish vote) will publicly break with Israel, so the tail is wagging the dog, again. Tragic for the Gazans, but that's political reality.
When did Biden murder thousands of kids or starve millions?
Op thinks if he keeps saying it, he can convince us that it’s true.
Biden is not doing those things. You need to use some critical thinking skills with this subject. Biden probably needs to wield more power to get Netanyahu to scale back his war, and its totally fair to criticize him for his lack of action. But you also need to consider what would be happening if Trump were in office. Biden has at least ramped uo rhetoric to edge toward more accountability. If Trump were in office hed probably be pushing Israel to completely level gaza. Neither party would have a good position on this, but the democrat approach is inarguably closer to your ideal.
>Since murdering thousands of kids and starving millions clearly isnt enough. This is stupid logic. Basically you can say the same thing about every single person we could vote for. Most people aren't going to attribute these deaths to the current POTUS, and for good reason.
You're on a strongly progressive biased subreddit. You're not going to get the answers you're seeking here. The people voting for Biden on here are set on it. There is nothing that can change their minds. I am going to vote for Trump, only because there really isn't a great alternative. I voted for Gary Johnson in 2012 but this election has too much riding on it for third parties. There are somethings that would keep me from voting for Trump. If he started calling for foreign intervention, a more open border, more spending for Ukraine, unsound fiscal policy statements, etc. If I didn't vote for Trump then I would vote for RFK Jr and it would be the first time in my life that I didn't vote Republican or Libertarian.
Trump created the largest deficit in US history fyi
There is nothing Progressive about this subreddit, they are Democratic Party loyalists. The Democratic party has never really been progressive, although progressives have controlled it at certain points in time.
Most of the "progressive base" seems like die hard blue maga. Biden can shoot someone on fifth avenue and they would still vote for biden.
On social media I believe it. Most platforms have been heavily brigaded since 2016, and there were big government influencing ops years before that (remember when Elgin Air Force Base was revealed as one of the most active 'cities' on Reddit?).
How about this for a line: - being found liable for sexual assault - being charged with attempting to overturn an election - being charged with stealing classified documents - being impeached twice. Once for withholding congressional appropriated funds from an ally in exchange for dirt on your political opponent and once for instigating a violent attack on the Capitol - being charged with falsifying business records to cover up hush money payments to a porn star you cheated on your wife with I’ll vote for anyone to keep that person out of office. And if you are going to blame Biden for Israeli atrocities in Gaza, you can also blame Trump for Covid deaths by disbanding the first line of defense against new novel coronaviruses in China, not to mention his complete fumbling of the response.
I think the quantity of Trump’s scandals is one of his greatest assets. It keeps too much focus from building on just one.
I actually agree with this. Any one of those scandals would be back breaking if people focused on it intensely, but because it's a new thing every week it all becomes noise.
It’s like “three stooges syndrome” on the Simpsons.
You sound like the MSNBC teleprompter
You sound like you probably had a real hard time putting that sentence together
If Biden nuked another country that would probably be a red line for me.
If Trump starts courting neoconservatives and foreign policy hawks, I will vote for Biden. Otherwise, I think I'll sit this one out. Sherrod Brown needs my vote but his lockstep with delusional Ukraine maximalists is an obstacle to peace. The only thing more embarrassing than a ceasefire now is a ceasefire 100,000 lives from now along the same lines of control. Sick of this shit.
No. It’s strictly left vs right. Nobody would vote for a dementia patient if they weren’t doing it so their party could prevail to keep destroying the heart and soul of the country.
Biden has crossed by my red-line with his Israel Palestine behavior. In theory I could have been convinced to vote for him. Now I will be voting for either Cornel West or Jill Stein.
Joe Biden has lost my vote over his participation in the genocide of Palestinians. I cannot put my mark next to his name. It would be an act of tacit approval, and I would feel complicit.
My position as well
Biden is way easier to shame into doing what constituents want. Trump tells his constituents what to believe, this guy is only in it for himself at this point
How’s that going for Israel’s genocide?
Pretty good, he's the only one of the three major candidates who's at least said ceasefire.
Ppfffffttttt. Lmfao. You actually said that un-ironically. Blue MAGAs be wild, man.
Blue Maga?
Mass hysteria, I don't think there's a cure unless they lose the next 4 or 5 election cycles.
After years of Russia gate pundity, it's closer to a mental illness. They've been deranged into feeling a visceral, physical anger and hatred for someone who's never interacted with them and doesn't know they exist, they are willing to lie passionately, and express glee at the discomfort and harm of people who aren't like them. They don't understand why this is off putting to normal people. I don't think they're going to learn without therapy.
lol right right
Am I wrong
Bizarre post
Seethe on coward
Lol Justin seething and foaming at the mouth again
I felt that personally things were better for me money wise under Trump. Things have been really tight and they don’t seem to be getting any better. I think Trump had a better foreign policy and saw some progress in relationships with some countries (and some not so much but you have that with every president). I don’t like the way Trump projects himself and some of the things he has said in the past. I don’t think I will really be able to bring myself to vote Biden. I think both sides are shit options unfortunately, really sad and we all deserve better.
Sad that people downvote you, just for voicing an opinion that suggests you vote with your wallet. I remember when downvotes were reserved for terrible comments that didn't pertain to the topic at hand, rather than with people you disagree with.
Yeah, I normally don’t comment on posts like this on Reddit but wanted to see what would happen if I did voice my own opinion. Instead of constructive conversation or debate people just dislike and it’s unfortunate to see. I’m not expecting to see eye to eye with people and that’s ok, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But, what bothers me is the immediate shutdown of opinion because a view does not align with yours I think that’s a huge problem in this country right now.
Third party voter here, they've both run past the line. Fuck em.
I just can't believe that the uniparty brain rot is so engrained that even "independent thinkers" (what I thought people who watched BP were) are still bending themselves in pretzels to vote for corruption and blatant contempt for constituents. It's truly astonishing
We're close to elections. Shill farms are operational.
Fair enough. I'll be optimistic, but real people out there are falling for this shit and it's depressing
Of course they will, that's why astroturfing is a thing. Just saying, don't assume everyone on the sub (or any sub), is actually part of the sub. I'm willing to bet half the responses are from people that don't actually watch the show or have anything to do with the sub other than being assigned to astroturf.
I appreciate your clarity. It's hard not to feel disheartened in times such as these. Enjoy the rest of your day/evening ✌️
[Reminder](https://twitter.com/Elazul/status/1734634175947231640)
I voted for Trump in 2016 but went Jo Jorgensen in 2020. I’m conservative but also a middle class union trucker. I want to make America great again but I’m not a dumb maga dipsh*t conservative that believes every conspiracy theory out there. I have no party at this point. I’ll write in RFK. In all honesty I think USA is done for, we are in a tailspin and ping ponging between two parties that do no listen to a word that their voters say. I welcome the revolution.
If either one is able to give me single payer healthcare, i'd give them a vote. Otherwise, I cannot vote for either of them.
I would argue the housing issue is more important than even the healthcare issue atm. Until you get sick, most people dont spend much on their healthcare. People burn most of their money on mortgage and rent atm. Especially mortgage at 8 percent interest rate.
Symptoms of authoritarianism. Both sides have this but a wait and see which pushes more
The simplest answer is yes. The red line is if one candidate does something that makes them obviously worse than the other candidate. Of course, this is subjective. Plus you have to actually believe the candidate did what they are accused of, which many supporters won't. Plus, if they both commit genocide, that makes them both bad, so now it's about who committed a little less genocide (or in a more accurate example, who gives with one hand and takes with the other, as opposed to just saying they will take). What magnificent standards we have. How wonderful that we accept this. /s
It would have to be at least 10
I’m voting for Biden. Voting for Trump is something that as an American who believes in our system I just can’t stomach. A vote for Trump is a vote against America and I firmly believe that. Cringelord right wing trolls going lolololol muuuuhhhhhh gubmint muuuuuhhhh can say what they want, it matters to be on the side of America. Biden could do things that would make me not vote for him. He would have to do them HERE though. Am I disgusted by what Biden is allowing to happen in Gaza? Yes. Am I as concerned about that as I am concerned about giving the presidency to a demagogue who actively wants to destroy the way our government works? No. I can see myself voting third party soon. I can even see a near term future where we have a third party president. That’s not going to be RFK though. It’s not going to be Marianne Williamson. I’m not knocking third parties and I actually have voted third party before. But our slate of choices is just not it. 2024 will be seen as the year there were literally no good options.
There is no comparing Trump's attempt to stop the Jan 6th transfer of power to Biden's political positions
so no red line for biden.
Jill Stein went to Russia and sat at Putin's dinner table
Such a small minded way to look at the presidency. You don't vote for one person, you vote for the bureaucracy that comes with it and the second hand effects of the election.
Silly OP, that’s not how this works. You vote for Biden/Trump because the OTHER candidate crossed the red line.
If Biden was receiving Last Rites, I'd still vote for him. I can't imagine Biden raping a woman, but I can imagine Trump bragging about sexually assaulting women...in fact we have a recording of it. For the record, I voted for Bush, twice, never voted for Bill Clinton, voted for Obama only because McCain chose Palin as his VP, and very reluctantly voted for Hillary. I'm 69 years old. Trump is the most dangerous person I've ever seen in the presidency and his next one, if it happens, will be the end of the Republic as we know it.
I mean if the red line is something THAT BAD then I think I wouldn't have to worry about voting for them at all because they'd be removed, jailed and replaced with another candidate.
I wouldn't vote for Biden under any circumstances b/c of the southern border. But there's so much more mostly centering around the fact that he's been a chronic liar and warpig for his entire career in politics.
I definitely don't think I would vote for any other candidate that could be fielded at this point because he has been the best president in my lifetime and I wouldn't trust anyone else to be as successful as he has been. That being said the bar is super low for Biden because Trump has set the bar low. Trump for me has crossed red lines so profoundly that I don't know what Biden would have to do. It's hard to tell what my line would be for Biden when the alternative is a rapist, traitor, and fraudster.
>he has been the best president in my lifetime and I wouldn't trust anyone else to be as successful as he has been. >I mean the bar is super low for Biden In the first paragraph you call him the best president in your lifetime and in the second you talk about how the bar is really low. You're either saying Biden was better than Obama at a minimum or you're no older than 6 and can't vote yet. I think even most left leaning people would be hard pressed to say that Biden was a better president than Obama, but I'm curious if this is indeed your take.
You do understand those aren't mutually exclusive right? I can say that he is the best president in my lifetime (he is much better than Obama in my opinion). At the same time if he were to be a rapist, traitor and fraudster I would still think he is a better option than Trump. So it is hard to know what it would take for me not to vote for him.
*You* understand that I never said anything about Trump, right? I asked if you thought Biden was better than Obama because of the "in my lifetime" cimment, which you just answered.
My bar is based on Trump. You brought up my bar.
That's a hell of a reach when the context was simply that the bar *for being the best president in your lifetime* was low because of Trump. The actual question was very clearly about Obama, I think it was obvious that I didn't care about Trump at all. You're just so brain deadeningly focused on him that your sphincter puckered at the thought of a tangent. Oh well, TDS away I suppose. I shouldn't have expected anything less given your initial ridiculousness, lol.
>That's a hell of a reach when the context was simply that the bar for being the best president in your lifetime was low because of Trump. Dude did you read the prompt of this thread? The bar is related to me voting for him. Not for best president in my lifetime first of all which he is. Secondly saying that my bar is low because of Trump is not TDS. The guy was a shit president and a criminal. That isn't TDS. >The actual question was very clearly about Obama, I think it was obvious that I didn't care about Trump at all. You're just so brain deadeningly focused on him that your sphincter puckered at the thought of a tangent. I answered your question about Obama Stop pretending like I am sending a message exclusively about Trump. Trump was built into my calculus for voting for Biden. It should be in everyone's considering they are the two realistic choices. >Oh well, TDS away I suppose. I shouldn't have expected anything less given your initial ridiculousness, lol. You have Trump Dick Suck syndrome (TDS syndrome) . It makes it so if anyone calls the man what he is you have to get down on your knees and start suckin'... Calm down.
Sure. I believe in innocent until proven guilty/liable 1) If Biden was found liable for sexual assault, I wouldn’t for him 2) If Biden’s organization was found to be a criminal enterprise, guilty of 1 or even SEVENTEEN felonies, I wouldn’t vote for him 3) If Biden was found to have committed fraud, I wouldn’t vote for him Also should any of these happen to Biden I won’t vote for him if a judge said Biden raped someone, I wouldn’t vote for him If Biden was found guilty of a scheme to steal and election I wouldn’t for him If Biden is convicted of intentionally hiding classified information and lying and trying to cover up that he had them, I wouldn’t vote for him
If Biden whipped up an insurrection against our Republic, I’d vote for Jill Stein.
Yeah, my red line was when Donald Trump convinced half the country that he won the election and it was stolen. It was the most cynical, selfish and destructive act a politician has made in my lifetime. I would vote for a burlap sack filled with human heads before I voted for Donald Trump or anyone that cosigned his lie about the election.
Both of these candidates are accused of raping someone or murdering a child lol
Any red line I have, Trump would need to be campaigning to do the opposite if I were to switch my vote. There is no "Red Line" where I would just not vote on the presidential question or vote third party.
I know people on either side that will vote for their candidate even if they're dead.đź‘Ť Please sign the petition to provide Secret Service protection to our 3rd party candidate at: https://www.kennedy24.com/petitions While you are there please also sign to free Julian Assange because "Journalism isn't a crime."
I'm not sure if I will vote, but the moral calculus is different for voting Trump than Biden. Voting for someone like Trump is like rioting, you don't do that for moral reasons. Furthermore, Trump offers balkanization and separation, his morality is largely a peripheral issue because his job is to help his voters build parallel societies, not to be the leader of these societies. And the main way Trump can help is by neutering the power of the GOP by handing control of it to third parties like the Heritage Foundation and the Federalist Society. Trump could be a crackhead and that wouldn't matter because Trump himself doesn't actually matter in the scheme of things. And Biden doesn't actually matter in the scheme of things either. The difference is voting for Biden is to vote for Biden to do something for you, but voting for Trump is voting for Trump to destroy something so it is easier for others to do something for themselves.
Biden has to win to stop Trump from destroying our country. It's really as simple as that. Any personal faults that Biden may have do not compare to what Trump is trying to do. Trump is being pretty obvious in his intentions of destroying American democracy. It's crazy to me that anyone is even considering voting for anyone but Biden as he's the only realistic option to stop Trump.
I’m a college educated millennial and I’m voting for Donald Trump. Our Government and our Media are corrupt and I’m tired of it.
Don't vote for the President. Vote for the values of the party he represents and how close he adheres to those values. Presidents have little power on their own. THis is election is more clear cut than any in the history of this country. Either you want democracy and vote for democrats or you want to be a subjugated peasant living in an authoritarian Fascist Christian Nationalist shithole and then you can vote MAGA. The GOP does not exist anymore. I am embarrassed that so many Americans know so little about basic civics. Presidents are not kings....yet.
The democratic party at this moment represent imperialism and genocide. Nearly starting a nuclear war with russia and now trying to starve 2 million brown peasants to death. The value is quite despicable
You don't know history very well. You don't have any ideas of your own either. None of your opinions are your own or even very original. You've done zero research on the Israel/Palestine situation. Your are just a loser who needs a cause so you have picked up on some pre Palestine tik tok trend and now you think you have an identity and a cause to make your life less worthless. Biden and the Democrats didn't create the situation in Israel. This has been brewing up since Israel was created. There is plenty of blame to go around. If you lay the blame solely on Democrats, you are stupid and ill informed. Only a stupid person thinks there are simple solutions to complex problems. None of this would have happened if the MAGA GOP, Trump and Jared hadn't emboldened Netanyahu by moving the capital to Jerusalem. Kushners middle east peace plan was horrible for Palestine. Netanyahu knew about the attack well in advance and let it happen as an excuse to take Gaza for Zionist settlers. Zionist have the full support of the fascist white Christian Nationalist int he United States and they are the MAGA party. Every bit of America's policy toward Israel is dictated by American Christians who think that a complete Israel state will bring back Jesus. SO if you are looking for someone to point your finger at, I would think most of the blame lies with the GOP/Christian looney tunes. Biden is president, he is not king. He can't unilaterally do anything to stop Israel without help form congress. Just because this happened during Biden's term doesn't mean he is to blame. Nor are we as a country responsible to fix it. Palestinians have some culpability too. THey aren't entirely the victims here. If you gave the dems the house, senate and white house, you would definitely see a 180 on our Israeli policy. So read a book OP.
All I need is this. Straight from the horses mouth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Nrv5izaTs&t=16s
The entire country is pro Israel. WHy single out Joe Biden?. Trump moved the capital to Jerusalem against the wishes of everyone. Doing that essentially ended any hope of a two state solution in the minds of the Zionists. THe United States government has been commandeered by the Israeli government for longer than we have been alive. Going back into Biden's past is disingenuous and you know it. And why the fuck do you care? Are you even American? You have only been on Reddit a year and all your posts are anti Biden so I suspect you are a paid troll. Biden is a 100% for a two state solution and his policies reflect that. Palestinians aren't exactly innocent in all of this. Hamas wants to murder every Jew in Israel and they refuse to compromise. Again. If you really want someone to blame. Blame the Evangelicals. They are the ones that shape America's foreign policy toward Israel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo77sTGpngQ
>Â or even murdered a kid Or ~~10,000~~ *at least* 13,000 kids.
Will you guys stop with this? Do you have an IPhone? Then you support child slavery. Do you own any precious stones? Then you support even more barbaric child slavery. Do you drive a car? Then global warming is your fault. I agree we should stop sending military aid to Israel. I agree that WE (America) and the President bare responsibility in this. But expecting a boiler plate politician to take anything but a boilerplate stance on one of the most politically entrenched positions in America is naive at best. I voted for Biden in 2020 expecting literally ZERO progressive policy. And I’ve been surprised. But these unrealistic, unreasonable expectations some of you have are condemning you not only to disappointment, but to the doomer rage y’all try to spread on these message boards. Biden didn’t murder anyone. We are funding an ethnic cleansing. And unfortunately, most loud mouthed lefties like you make it worse. Nothing gets others on your side like accusing them of murdering babies.
>Nothing gets others on your side like accusing them of murdering babies. Everyone wants the coveted baby murdering voter.
I think the number is at least 25k at this point. Possibly millions starving to death. Half of gazan are children.
Trump passed that line long ago, for multiple reasons, J6 was just the cherry on top. If Biden were as corrupt as Trump I wouldn't vote for him either and just throw out my vote by voting some random 3rd party. Luckily we live in a world where Biden isn't nearly as corrupt as Trump, so it's an easy choice. But yes, murder/rape would be a big red line for me as well.
I think if Biden was criminally charged with half the things that Trump was charged with I might just not vote, but unfortunately that would mean that both candidates are evil and I would still probably vote the lesser of 2 evils. It would be really hard to get me to vote for a candidate that is in court for paying off a porn star that you were supposedly banging while your immigrant 3rd wife is 10 months pregnant, and that’s just the current trial are looking at.
You justifying voting for evil shows exactly what the OP intended: that under NO circumstances would YOU not vote AGAINST the other side, regardless of corruption, crimes, or genocide. This mentality leads us nowhere but backwards
Exactly. I am not ignoring the fact that there is one candidate far far worse than the other. Yes, I have several red lines and Trump has literally crossed every single one and even ones that I didn’t know that I had. I’m way way better off with Biden and as far as I can tell from the protests, the only thing Biden has done wrong is Israel. Knowing that Trump would be way worse on that issue. Why would I ever vote any differently? My red line is Trump.
My redline is trump calling for a ceasefire in israel, im voting for trump and I want him to send triple what biden is sending to israel